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mablem8
05-26-2010, 06:27 PM
I've always loved the ideas wrapped up in the X-Men universe, but the enormity of the canon presents a daunting barrier to entry for casual newcomers. If I want to get deeper into the world of X-Men, where should I start? My experience stems largely from the X-Men: Evolution animated series and the movies.

Many of the narratives that peak my interest are the ones that explore the back story and relationships of the characters. For example, I enjoy Evolution's presentation of the relationship between Professor X and Juggernaut, and I wish the third movie had done a better job handling Juggernaut as a character. In the first movie, the scene of Magneto as a child being forced into a concentration camp still impresses me. I'd love to see more stories centered around his background and the dynamic he has with Xavier.

Wolverine's back story as suggested by the first three movies seems rather intriguing. The idea that Logan's accelerated healing is his mutation, and that his claws were able to be grafted in because of this ability, seems so much more appealing than the idea of a bicentennial werewolf. Having Logan pop up not too much later than Xavier and Erik gives the advent of the mutants a more focused and sudden feel.

Origins may present a more canon history of Wolverine, but I find the story threads of that film less compelling. Sabretooth's character stands in direct contradiction of the Sabretooth in the trilogy, although the character presented in those films is hardly impressive. Gambit is a bit of a joke. Finally, I regret having been introduced to Deadpool by Origins. That character seems to have a strong following stemming from his comics appearances, but the Deadpool of the movie is disgusting. Walking away from that film, I had no interest in ever seeing Deadpool again.

The social and political impact the mutants have in the X-Men universe peaks my interest as well. The movie trilogy touches on both of these ideas, as does the animated series. Many of the characters deal with family frictions that arise from their powers, and the question of mutant rights along with the concept of a cure allows for great spaces of discussion and imagination. Also, questioning how government and history relate to the mutant phenomenon holds potential for creative stories.

So where should I look for some awesome X-Men? No doubt, my view of the X-Men world is woefully skewed by my relatively shallow experience. I have seen bits of X-Men: The Animated Series episodes, but none of them have grabbed me. Are any of them must-see? Since I have only seen a scattering of the Evolution episodes, are there any story arcs to watch or avoid? And are any of the comics focused or enjoyable enough to be worth reading? I find it dauntingly difficult to dip into any long-running comic franchises due to the sheer immensity of the literature. Generally, I stick to new or limited-run concepts, enjoying the fact that there is a beginning and an end. But if there are any self-contained narratives that aren't overly dependent on years of prior knowledge, I would love to pick them up.

Dart Zaidyer
05-26-2010, 06:42 PM
Try looking at Volume 1 of the 90s X-Men animated series. The animation may be uneven, some of the dialogue is a little stilted, and Jubilee is annoying, but they tried their best to address some heavy storylines early on and in my opinion, they did pretty well and stayed mostly true to the comics before they started watering things down later in the series.

Wolverine and the X-Men gets to be a little more serious, being a modern show with better art, but it still takes liberties and it's in broadcast limbo in the US, making it hard to get into.

Octopus Prime
05-26-2010, 06:43 PM
My recommendation is to pick up the first three or four Essential X-Men collections; it covers everything from Claremonts debut (which marks when the book went from being on the verge of cancellation to one of the highest selling properties) and before it started getting overly pretentious and whiny. And the Essential collections are cheap enough that you can get several without denting your wallet, and they cover a LOT of material each.

And volume 2 has the Dark Phoenix arc; which is arguably the series finest hour.

Jeanie
05-26-2010, 07:48 PM
I'd also recomend God Loves, Man Kills if you can find it. X-Men 2 cribbed its story from this one.

Badinage
05-26-2010, 07:53 PM
Grant Morrison's New X-Men is very polarizing among its fans, yet it does a good job exploring the idea of mutants being the next stage of human evolution, exploring Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters as an actual school and establishing the team as more of a mutant search-and-rescue team than an all-out superhero team. Again, very hit-or-miss, so read at your own caution.

Balrog
05-26-2010, 08:00 PM
I was a big X-Men fan when I was younger and the thing that I like reading best from the series is The New Mutants. It tackled the mutant/coming of age thing better than anything else I saw in the series. I also have a sweet spot for the period when Storm had a mohawk but that's neither here nor there.

Sven
05-26-2010, 08:21 PM
There's only two choices: Claremont / Byrne or New X-Men.

Best bet is to get the second Essential X-Men, which is their most famous stuff and Byrne's art looks better in black and white.

TheSL
05-26-2010, 08:26 PM
My recommendation is to pick up the first three or four Essential X-Men collections; it covers everything from Claremonts debut (which marks when the book went from being on the verge of cancellation to one of the highest selling properties) and before it started getting overly pretentious and whiny. And the Essential collections are cheap enough that you can get several without denting your wallet, and they cover a LOT of material each.

And volume 2 has the Dark Phoenix arc; which is arguably the series finest hour.

Ditto. Definitely stop before volume 5, though.

Parish
05-26-2010, 08:37 PM
There's only two choices: Claremont / Byrne or New X-Men.

Best bet is to get the second Essential X-Men, which is their most famous stuff and Byrne's art looks better in black and white.

This is the most correct post of all. Every word of it.

Claremont's dialogue can be a bit stale, but Byrne did his part to temper his partner's worst tendencies, and his art is amazingly good. (Yes, yes, so he's watered-down second-rate Neal Adams. SO WHAT.)

And New X-Men was fantastic for the way Morrison stopped, thought, and took the trouble to modernize the concept of the series to belong in the modern world as opposed to perpetuating the emotionally-arrested pastiche of the '70s and '80s in which other superhero comics exist. It wobbles a bit in direction toward the latter third, and I hate the way it ends, but on the whole it's amazing. Sadly, Marvel hit the reset button as soon as Morrison left and returned things to their idiotic status quo, which is why you should never ever read any X-Men after New X-Men.

Queen Possum
05-26-2010, 08:47 PM
If you liked the movies, go with God Loves, Man Kills, the Phoenix Saga, and Whedon/Cassaday's Astonishing X-Men. That's where a lot of the source material came from.

The Wolverine mini drawn by Frank Miller (I think Claremont wrote?) is some nice stuff. New X-Men is, as was said earlier, very polarizing (it boils down to how much you like Grant Morrison), but it's still my favorite story arc in comics, and it's nice because it's a complete 180 for a lot of characters.

I found uncannyxmen.net to be a useful reference when I first started reading comics - they have a lot of issue summaries and character information, which I used to figure out what characters and storylines I was interested in. And of course, there's always wiki.

Dhroo
05-26-2010, 10:48 PM
It's not exactly the best place to start, but I agree wholeheartedly with Astonishing X-Men. It's the most fun I've ever had reading X-Men, or probably anything Marvel, period.

And I normally hate Joss Whedon!

O..O~
05-26-2010, 11:12 PM
It's not exactly the best place to start, but I agree wholeheartedly with Astonishing X-Men. It's the most fun I've ever had reading X-Men, or probably anything Marvel, period.

And I normally hate Joss Whedon!

I liked astonishing for the most part but the second arc, "danger" in it was dreadful. It was nearly the exact plot as a lame 90's x-men story I read growing up about Cerebro coming to life. The artwork is what made it worth it though, John Cassaday draws some breath taking otherworldly stuff.

If you want some good stupid action movie fun go read Old Man Logan, it is pretty much wolverine being completely badass in a post apoclytpic world with an old & blind hawkeye. Also the venom symbiote is owned by T-rex. Stupid Millar fun at its best.

estragon
05-27-2010, 12:31 AM
If you're already vaguely familiar with the source material, the best X-Men story is all the Age of Apocalypse material.

It's obviously not the Platonic ideal of the X-Men like some of the suggestions above, and it's not a good introduction if you don't know the characters at all. But if you have basic familiarity with the characters and concepts, it's an awesome story arch that lets you see all the characters from different perspecties.

I haven't read this since I was probably about 12, though, so maybe it's terrible now, I don't know.

Edit: Also, yes, Morrison's New X-Men. I had quit since a little post-Onslaught, then someone showed me that in college. It didn't convince me to start buying serialized superhero comics again, but it did convince me to keep borrowing new issues from that guy who had them.

Paul le Fou
05-27-2010, 01:22 AM
If you're already vaguely familiar with the source material, the best X-Men story is all the Age of Apocalypse material.

It's obviously not the Platonic ideal of the X-Men like some of the suggestions above, and it's not a good introduction if you don't know the characters at all. But if you have basic familiarity with the characters and concepts, it's an awesome story arch that lets you see all the characters from different perspecties.

I haven't read this since I was probably about 12, though, so maybe it's terrible now, I don't know.

I came here to post this.

Although, I actually went back and re-read Age of Apocalypse when I was in college. Conclusion: not nearly as cool as 12-year-old me thought it was, but still pretty cool.

Rascally Badger
05-27-2010, 05:43 AM
Whedon's and Cassaday's Astonishing X-Men is Claremont's X-Men done better than Claremont ever did, except maybe with Byrne. Maybe. People seem to think that Claremont suddenly forgot how to write when he came back to the X-Men but the real truth is he was never really that good. He had a good six years or so on X-Men then ten not so good years.

Was Claremont writing New Mutants when Sienkiewicz was doing the art? Because the Demon Bear story was really great, although most of that was the art.

TheSL
05-27-2010, 05:50 AM
Age of Apocalypse
[...]
I haven't read this since I was probably about 12, though, so maybe it's terrible now, I don't know.

I reread it after moving into my home (and having to move all my old comics). The main X-Men (Astonishing and Amazing) and the Weapon X books were still pretty solid, but a lot of the other stuff doesn't hold up as well as I would have liked.

Sven
05-27-2010, 06:52 AM
I liked astonishing for the most part but the second arc, "danger" in it was dreadful. It was nearly the exact plot as a lame 90's x-men story I read growing up about Cerebro coming to life.

It's also really reminiscent of about half a dozen Star Trek "the Holodeck is ALIVE!" episodes.

My favourite issue of that run is the one with Ben jealously complaining about how beating up monsters in NYC is the FF's job and that the X-Men need to get the heck out of the way. That got me thinking that Whedon's... talents... would be best served on the FF, where his style of dialogue would work best. His plotting was good on X-Men, but he was a bit too small-scale, dialogue-wise, for the book.

Yes, yes, so he's watered-down second-rate Neal Adams. SO WHAT.

So's Jim Aparo, but you'll never hear me say a bad word about him, Being a close copy of the greatest artist in comic history's not what you'd call a bad thing.

Isn't there an Adams-drawn issue in Volume 2? Or Perez? I remember reading the credits of one of them and going "oh, this'll be good..."

NavelsAreNeat
05-27-2010, 08:20 AM
I haven't read it for years, but yeah, everyone is right about New X-Men being awesome. As far as "mutant stuff Chris Claremont wrote in the eighties" I've always preferred New Mutants to the X-Men. I actually really like all the teen spin-offs, although the last one that I read (but not the most recent) spent the last several years hilariously slaughtering so much of its young cast. How appealing! I don't understand why kids don't read comics these days. And 90s X-Men are hilarious, because everyone's always committing just tons and tons of genocide. Professor X and his ideals just look kind of silly.

I dunno. I like the X-Men, but I have trouble buying the Marvel universe because it makes so little sense that people hate mutants so much more than other people with super-powers. I just cannot buy it, even though its Comics and Allegorical and Whatever.

Sven
05-27-2010, 08:24 AM
I dunno. I like the X-Men, but I have trouble buying the Marvel universe because it makes so little sense that people hate mutants so much more than other people with super-powers. I just cannot buy it, even though its Comics and Allegorical and Whatever.

Well, that was one of Morrison's key points - that mutants would more likely turn into a kind of cool subculture than anything else.

But, yeah, Marvel's still kind of locked into their "we write books for sullen outcast teenagers" mentality when it comes to the X-Men, so they keep going back to persecution as the basic theme whenever possible.

Octopus Prime
05-27-2010, 08:28 AM
Which always struck me as being the stupidest thing about the X books-
If you're going to hate and antagonize any group; why choose the one that has a guy with eye-lasers or the girl who can control weather?

That just reeks of being a poor idea on multiple levels.

Queen Possum
05-27-2010, 09:06 AM
Not officially an X-book, but the issue of Runaways where Molly tours the Academy is kinda awesome too.

Although I think it's awesome any time Molly punches Wolverine through a building.

Alex Scott
05-27-2010, 09:41 AM
Also: Power Pack #19, where the kids have Wolverine and Kitty Pryde over for Thanksgiving.

The-Bavis
05-27-2010, 09:55 AM
I have no new suggestions to add except that reading Wolverine's first appearance in Hulk is entertaining in many ways.

I wish I had read more X-men than Excalibur. I really liked the Rachel-Phoenix thing. :(

JDS
05-27-2010, 09:58 AM
Hahaha, I get in late and someone's already stole my "the only good Claremont is Claremont/Byrne" spot. THAT'S MY THING. THE THING THAT I SAY. :( God, X-Men Forever is just trash.

Astonishing X-Men kinda sucked, sorry guys. You may like it if you're already a Whedon fan, but this is true of everything he does.

I will add that "X-Cutioner's Song" is pretty good in a hair-metal type of way. Entirely a product of its era, but it has an undeniable visceral thrill going for it. Same for "Age of Apocalypse" -- the Generation X/Generation Next arc is particularly hardcore in showing just how merciless and unsentimental the mid-90s writers could be when they were finally let off the chain.

Badinage
05-27-2010, 10:34 AM
I'd say Whedon's Astonishing X-Men would be one of the few books to read after Morrison's New X-Men. As sad as it was that Marvel decided to turn the X-Men back into straight-up superheroes, Whedon was the best man to take the job. Unfortunately, it's lacking in the high concepts and great ideas of Morrison's run, but I personally love the dialogue and Whedon's sci-fi take.

TheSL
05-27-2010, 10:37 AM
My biggest gripe with Whedon's Astonishing X-Men run was that he essentially turned Cyclops into Mal from Firefly for a good portion of the space story arc.

nunix
05-27-2010, 10:49 AM
How about X-Men Legends? I realise this is mostly about the actual comics, and a few of the cartoons, but I had a heck of a lot of X-Man-y fun with those games.

Balrog
05-27-2010, 10:54 AM
I will add that "X-Cutioner's Song" is pretty good in a hair-metal type of way. Entirely a product of its era, but it has an undeniable visceral thrill going for it.

I'll second this. Damn, I had completely forgotten about it.

Blergmeister
05-27-2010, 11:12 AM
Oh man what I wouldn't give for an X-Men Legends 3! With awesome flashback levels!!!! The best part of 1 were the levels based off of some of the classic storylines. I'd pay for some sort of MMOish system for new content delivery where they start with some early storylines or at least the first Claremont stuff and then every couple of months give us sequentially new arcs worth of levels as we start customizing our characters as we go. This will do good until they get into the Uncanny 350s where my nostalgia runs out but whatever. A man can dream.

My X-Men experience started with the 90s cartoon. I started grabbing some comics from that era all the way up to just the start of the Morrison era. It was the jarring change in tone along with me moving to college that had me leaving at the time. I went back and checked a lot of old stuff out during that time too.

My favorite arcs include: Dark Phoenix because it’s so good, X-Cutioners because that was what was going on when I got into them and was "super epic" and I love it still, and a trade called From the Ashes. I don't think the issues are all linked under that heading when they were coming out but it’s a great story involving all the classic early 80's characters and involves everything from Morlocks and early Rogue, to Wolverines engagement to Mariko (did I get that right?) and mohawk Storm, all while tying it together in a Phoenix package. One of my favorite stories I never hear people talking about.

Balrog
05-27-2010, 12:22 PM
I don't think the issues are all linked under that heading when they were coming out but it’s a great story involving all the classic early 80's characters and involves everything from Morlocks and early Rogue, to Wolverines engagement to Mariko (did I get that right?) and mohawk Storm, all while tying it together in a Phoenix package. One of my favorite stories I never hear people talking about.

Oh, man. Blerg knows!

Sven
05-27-2010, 12:30 PM
As sad as it was that Marvel decided to turn the X-Men back into straight-up superheroes, Whedon was the best man to take the job.

You know, if they'd just stuck with the idea, that would've been fine too.

But now they're back to the allegorical persecution stuff, and I'm all "wait, again?"

If you're going to hate and antagonize any group; why choose the one that has a guy with eye-lasers or the girl who can control weather?

That just reeks of being a poor idea on multiple levels.

I think part of it is Marvel's whole fantasy-fulfillment thing, where the people who get picked upon get to show up the bullies.

But, yeah, if I was a member of the anti-Mutant-league or whomever, I'd be real careful about whom I'd try to lynch.

JDS
05-27-2010, 12:47 PM
From the Ashes is alright but it suffers badly from Chris Claremont Can't Move On from the Phoenix Saga Syndrome. A lot of people loved Paul Smith on art, but I've never understood what was special about him.

Sven
05-27-2010, 12:52 PM
From the Ashes is alright but it suffers badly from Chris Claremont Can't Move On from the Phoenix Saga Syndrome. A lot of people loved Paul Smith on art, but I've never understood what was special about him.


Nothing all that special on X-Men, but Golden Age is one of the best miniseries ever produced and his art is a major part of that.

JDS
05-27-2010, 12:59 PM
He did Golden Age? I'd have never guessed. His X-Men always looked too thin and clean.

example (http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/263/smith_wiacek.gif)

Sven
05-27-2010, 01:04 PM
Yup, and therefore he's responsible for one of my favourite panels in comics, the "Alan Scott smoking a cigar with the weight of the world on his shoulders" shot that I linked to on JLR.

MikeDinosaur
05-27-2010, 01:09 PM
Astonishing X-Men kinda sucked, sorry guys. You may like it if you're already a Whedon fan, but this is true of everything he does.

I second this. I was pretty excited to buy Astonishing after all the praise it got, and I thought it would be cool to see a cure story done right (since X3 did it, along with everything else, wrong). I actually thought the comic's treatment of it was even weaker than the movie's. Reading New X-Men especially threw it into relief; where all the big ideas in New X-Men are examined pretty exhaustively, the cure story in Astonishing is just kind of a side note before the climactic fight with that cat guy.

Also a bummer how they threw all the development of the Cyclops/Wolverine relationship out the window at the first opportunity just to leave them as petulant adolescents again.

I really enjoyed Weapon X. It's not particularly deep, but it's really amazingly drawn and effective in its disturbing way. Barry Windsor-Smith is a genius. It's only available in hardback but it's on the Marvel Digital site.

onimaruxlr
05-27-2010, 01:17 PM
Best X-Men is Jason Aaron writing Wolverine

I mean really, none of those other guys are a big deal. Especially now that that one guy is dead.

Grant Morrison's New X-Men is very polarizing among its fans, yet it does a good job exploring the idea of mutants being the next stage of human evolution, exploring Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters as an actual school and establishing the team as more of a mutant search-and-rescue team than an all-out superhero team. Again, very hit-or-miss, so read at your own caution.

The whole notion of mutants as the "next step of humanity" has struck me as deeply counter intuitive to the whole notion of the X-Men. First of all, I don't think evolution works that way, second , the amount of mutations that had absolutely no benefits/negative impacts were pretty damn numerous. Not everyone was a saucey psychic seductress like Emma Frost. Not to mention that the whole "mutancy as a stand-in for pre-existing social problems" thing goes out the window when you start suggesting that in a couple of decades there won't be any non-mutants anymore.

Add that to some of Morrison's weird issues with being able to create a genuinely morally grey antagonist ("Magneto is just a senile old terrorist") and it's like...myehhh.

JDS
05-27-2010, 04:46 PM
I second this. I was pretty excited to buy Astonishing after all the praise it got, and I thought it would be cool to see a cure story done right (since X3 did it, along with everything else, wrong). I actually thought the comic's treatment of it was even weaker than the movie's. Reading New X-Men especially threw it into relief; where all the big ideas in New X-Men are examined pretty exhaustively, the cure story in Astonishing is just kind of a side note before the climactic fight with that cat guy.

Hahaha, I remember the 90s cartoon doing the cure storyline too. (the "doctor" was mystique working for apocalypse iirc.)
I've never liked the idea of a "cure" because it runs so counter-intuitive to what we know about mutants. They try to get over the idea of the powers being integral to their genetic makeup, but outside of Chamber I can't think of a time when missing powers has negatively affected mutants at an organic level. It's like, can your cure being tall? Yeah, but you'd be left without half of your legs.

I was surprised how weak Whedon's core ideas were. Breakworld? You have a library off great villains, and you choose to pull a lame new character out of your coat that brings nothing new to the mix? Well, okay. To be fair, Morrison was a multiple-time offender of bringing in a forgettable original non-character when a known quantity would suffice; Fantomex was practically his Poochie.

Also a bummer how they threw all the development of the Cyclops/Wolverine relationship out the window at the first opportunity just to leave them as petulant adolescents again.

I know! So reactionary and dumb, just like the Colossus un-deading and the "okay actually we are superheroes wink " deal. It like he wanted to pay tribute to Claremont, and did so by being frustrating and writing bad stories centered around Kitty Pryde. His further cementing of Morrison's "Absolutely Fabulous" Emma Frost characterization told me that it was heading towards troubled waters.

mablem8
05-27-2010, 06:39 PM
Oof, these suckers can be expensive. But it looks like it will be an enjoyable holiday weekend:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ODYBLYYnKng/S_8akmQFeNI/AAAAAAAAAD4/kD1QTPufrGg/s288/XMenBooks.JPG

Interestingly, Essential X-Men, Vol. 1 was nowhere to be found at my local comic shops.

One stumbling point I ran across is the fact that Marvel recycles the titles "New Mutants" and "New X-Men" for different series. From what I can tell, "New X-Men" was used to title the more contemporary iteration of the "New Mutants" line after Morrison's run was over. Has anybody read the "Academy X" stories, or the spin-off "X-Force?"

Octopus Prime
05-27-2010, 06:51 PM
Oof, these suckers can be expensive. But it looks like it will be an enjoyable holiday weekend:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ODYBLYYnKng/S_8akmQFeNI/AAAAAAAAAD4/kD1QTPufrGg/s288/XMenBooks.JPG

Interestingly, Essential X-Men, Vol. 1 was nowhere to be found at my local comic shops.


Well, Volume 2 has the entire Dark Phoenix arc, so not much of a loss.

However, Volume 1 has Magneto show up and reveal his evil plan to lock the X-Men into special chairs that give them the motar control of infants, and then having a really annoying robot nanny pamper them until they can take no more.

And that? That is just fine.

Queen Possum
05-27-2010, 07:40 PM
However, Volume 1 has puppies.

God bless the Silver Age.

Rascally Badger
05-27-2010, 08:23 PM
Whedon on Astonishing took Claremont's tropes: mutant hysteria, alien adventures, self-created problems and the shadow team, and did 3 of the four of them better than Claremont ever did while keeping most of development from Morrison's run. Except for the fight at the beginning the Cyclops Wolverine "friendship" is still there, Frost remains a hero, and Beast's struggles about his humanity continue. Plus he brought back Colossus, who had one of the dumbest deaths in comics. The only problems with Astonishing X-Men is that the dangerous arc is weak and that Whedon never got to outdo Claremont on an possible alternate future story.

And while I wouldn't rush to get it, the Lee/Kirby stuff is not terrible, just some of their weaker work. But I'm not sure there is bad Jack Kirby.

Büge
05-27-2010, 08:24 PM
I know! So reactionary and dumb, just like the Colossus un-deading and the "okay actually we are superheroes wink " deal. It like he wanted to pay tribute to Claremont, and did so by being frustrating and writing bad stories centered around Kitty Pryde.

So were you expecting him to ignore the opportunity to write about another waifish girl with super-powers?

Sven
05-31-2010, 08:00 AM
Has anybody read the "Academy X" stories, or the spin-off "X-Force?"

Yeah, they're some fun stuff (I like DeFillipis / Weir as a writing team). Sort of like the Harry Potter with Mutants thing that Morrison kind of hinted at, although of course his take on it predated Harry Potter.

The catch is that after the first series ends they just come right out and actually divide the students into houses... er, squads.

But it was a good little universe-building series that went all to hell when someone thought it was a good idea to wipe out most of the mutants.

I don't think X-Force was a direct spin-off; I rode the series to its conclusion and I don't think X-Force was out until well after that.

ThornGhost
06-01-2010, 09:22 AM
I was way into X-books back in middle school in the 90s, though I have sporadically followed them in recent years when I heard good things about a particular storyline.

A book I really enjoyed as a young 'un was the spin-off "Generation X", which featured Banshee and Emma Frost (as one of her first turns as a good guy) re-establishing the "School for Gifted Youngsters" as an actual school for young mutants instead of a palatial manor grown men and women would stalk around in spandex.

The book featured Jubilee and a host of new mutants discovered during the "Phalanx Covenant" crossover event trying to learn to control their powers and go on low key missions. Of course it was never that simple, but at the time I think I enjoyed the book more than the "main" X-books.

I've always regretted not reading the 90's era X-Force books with Cable as the team lead. At the time I was pretty sure they sucked, but looking back, it sounds like a lot of messy comic fun featuring some of the less "refined" mutant heroes of the 90s.

JDS
06-01-2010, 11:10 AM
The Lobdell-Bachalo issues of Generation X are insane and probably the reason I have such a bug up my ass over the "one-dimensional Bitchy British Jean Grey" Emma. The Emma Frost in Gen X >>>>> any other Emma Frost.

Onomarchus
06-01-2010, 06:28 PM
If a big purple-blue guy booming, "I am as far beyond mutants as they are beyond you!" isn't the best X-men, I don't want to know what is.

OzymandiasAV
06-02-2010, 11:23 AM
Oh, man. Incredibly long geekout forthcoming. Recommendations are in bold...and I'll try to guard against critical spoilers where I can.

I would definitely echo the first four Essential X-Men volumes as my unqualified recommendation. They cover the best that Claremont had for the X-Men, right up to the point when things were starting to get a little dicey (e.g. Madeline Pryor, X-Men in Spaaaaaaaace).

Beyond that era, you get a steady descent into madness, including another fake death/reboot that transports the team in Australia, a gazillion mutant teams running around (including one led by Magneto, of all people), two different encounters with demons and/or Satan, and all sorts of mind-numbing insanity dealing with Genosha. The best way to approach the mid-to-late-80's run of the X-Men, if you ask me, is to forget that any of it happened at all.

(It's worth noting that this period of turbulence isn't unique to the X-Men but, rather, symbolizes a collective freakout from Marvel in response to a shift in comic book storytelling, spearheaded by The Dark Knight Returns and The Watchmen. Marvel writers everywhere seemed obsessed with blowing up their teams over and over again in grand, world-altering fashion, in an ongoing attempt to capture the Watchmen lightning in a bottle. It didn't work.)

Once you hit the 90's, things get a little bit better. The reason that X-Men #1 is one of the best selling comics of all time is because it represented a bit of a homecoming for the X-Men comic, a consolidation/cleanup of all of the insane continuity that happened over the last 5-10 years. You get a killer Jim Lee cover with Magneto at the forefront as the villain, As God Intended, facing off against the most appealing X-Men characters, each with fresh new character designs. It's the moment that Marvel decided to push the X-Men as their #1 go-to superhero team - because, despite every attempt to completely destroy the brand in the 80's, the X-Men were still probably their most marketable property - and they swung for the fences with multiple comic book series:

- A populist, action-driven line at establishing a newer, cleaner continuity for mass marketing appeal (X-Men)
- A more traditional, story-driven line with carefully-measured loyalty to old continuity (Uncanny X-Men)
- An EXTREME!!! military/vigilante offshoot to give the brand some edge (X-Force)
- A more light-hearted series (X-Factor) that effectively tied up everything else not covered by the first three series by acting as a repository for second-tier characters (Havok!) and unfortunate continuity requirements (We Have A Government-Approved Team of Mutants!).

Even when most of the big names from these books would leave town to form Image Comics, things still seemed like they were on their way back up and Marvel cashed in on that success with two killer crossovers:

- X-Cutioner's Song, which involved a mass-market assassination plot (Xavier), surprisingly-wise uses of continuity (the techno-organic virus, super-careful implications of the Summers family nonsense), and tons and tons of action.

- Fatal Attractions, which pitted the X-Men in one huge confrontation with Magneto that involved one major -- and completely brilliant -- betrayal, a virtually-mandatory character nerf, and a pretty intense escape sequence at the very end.

Almost immediately after that, things turn to absolute crap. You get a dreadful Avengers crossover, a straight-faced wedding between Cyclops and Jean Grey (because there was apparently nothing better to do), and a lukewarm mini-reboot that leans on uglier aspects of the late 80's continuity (Phalanx Covenant). Things get bad enough that they blow everything up again by having Charles Xavier get killed (again) in the past, sending everything to a bizarre alternate dimension where Wolverine only has one hand and Apocalypse talks waaaaay too much (Age of Apocalypse). After that, things resume sucking again, all the way through the Onslaught storyline, which virtually ruins the X-Men franchise for good and does a lot of collateral damage to other Marvel properties in the process.

That's where I got off the X-Men train and, beyond that period, I couldn't really tell you much. I haven't read Whedon's stuff or any of the Ultimate X-Men line (yet another reboot). Through, from a distance, it appears that all of the modern stuff outside of Whedon's work (e.g. Chuck Austen's hatchet job on Uncanny X-Men) has been embarrassingly bad.

I did, however, briefly come back for Grant Morrison's run on New X-Men, which isn't necessarily good as much as it is different. And, considering that the X-Men brand was effectively used up at that point, a different approach was certainly welcome. The problem is that it was still Grant Morrison, which means that the book starts to read like the last season of Star Trek:TNG, where the characters had nothing left to do but hallucinate and/or go crazy every other episode. Just utter, utter weirdness.

The X-Men battle Xavier's astral twin sister that he previously fought in the womb. Morrison does everything in his power to completely replace Jean Grey with Emma Frost, right down to sprite-swapping her into a romantic relationship with Cyclops. Some random guy with guns named Fantomex drops by and asks if Cyclops and Wolverine want to go on a field trip with him to spaaaaaace. Genosha gets plunged into war/destroyed/whatever again. Yet Another Team Of Young Mutants gets introduced with another random dude (Xorn) in charge. Magneto gets high on mutant-power-altering drugs and goes completely apesh*t, resulting in Jean Grey getting killed (in a scene that has got to be designed for sheer parody) and Wolverine lopping Magneto's head clean off with little or no fanfare. Then everybody flies into the future because those mutant-power-altering drugs were actually some kind of sentient bacteria that want to destroy evolution. Oooooooookay.

I think people look back fondly on the Morrison run because, by that point, people were just really tired of the X-Men, so they wanted to see somebody come in and completely wreck things with a sledgehammer. If you actually go back and read his work, though, I think you'll find a number of absolutely brilliant moments that can get easily lost within a lot of meandering nonsense. Morrison certainly blows things up well enough -- the retcons required to essentially undo his work are some of the most strained, awful retcons in X-Men history, which should tell you something -- but he never really builds anything meaningful in its stead either.

Rascally Badger
06-02-2010, 02:11 PM
I think people look back fondly on the Morrison run because, by that point, people were just really tired of the X-Men, so they wanted to see somebody come in and completely wreck things with a sledgehammer. If you actually go back and read his work, though, I think you'll find a number of absolutely brilliant moments that can get easily lost within a lot of meandering nonsense. Morrison certainly blows things up well enough -- the retcons required to essentially undo his work are some of the most strained, awful retcons in X-Men history, which should tell you something -- but he never really builds anything meaningful in its stead either.

People look back fondly on the Morrison run because it was a pretty good run in a book that had been absolutely terrible for a quarter of a century.

And on Claremont, I remember the point where I realized how bad his run actually was, which I will spoiler even though its a twenty plus year old bad comic. The X-Men were fighting the Hellfire club an Rachel Grey, Cyclops and Jeans kid from a possible future and at the time possessor of the Phoenix force, was going to kill Selene, the evil vampire member of the hellfire club who had been tormenting her, but Wolverine shows up and tells Rachel that the X-Men don't kill. She ignores him so he stabs her in the heart, which would have killed her save for Mojo's(Good God theres a terrible villain) helpers intervention. I put the book down and I didn't even consider reading any X-Men after that until Grant Morrison.

JDS
06-02-2010, 03:23 PM
The Wolverine/Rachel thing was the biggest what the fuck in X-Men history. It just relies so much on retarded comic book pussy morality. If we kill the mass-murdering vampire, is it not we who are the real monster???? What a completely stupid non-sequitor.

The Outback era is definitely weird. Claremont said he always liked the idea of the X-Men being a loose group constantly in flux in exotic locales, which is fine in theory but in practice meant trading off everything that made the premise compelling in favor of Space Adventures with the Brood and X-Men in Magic World.

The Brood, Shi'ar, Shadow King, Kitty Pride, Rachel -- these are Chris Claremont's Poochies. Learn to love them or get the fuck out. I read in a forum once that had he stayed on he was supposedly going to have the Shadow King be responsible for virtually everything that had ever happened in the book. Which tells you all you need to know about mid-era Claremont, really.

I will say that he was a fantastic idea man, even though his follow-through sucked. Nimrod, Warlock, Muir Island, The Right, Sabretooth, Marauders, the Reavers, Legion, Spiral, Body Shoppe, Lady Deathstrike, Mojoworld, Morlocks, Proteus -- all great concepts. I'll never figure out how you can come up with a character as interesting as Legion and the shunt him aside so everyone can go to Asgard or fight the Hellfire Club mk. III or whatever. Hmmm, an insanely powerful and neglected son of Professor X with multiple personality disorder... nope, no stories to be told there! The Right gets props for sheer weirdness with the smiley-face helmets; I think the character arc of Cameron Hodge speaks well of his abilities when he wasn't distracted, but I'm not sure how much of that was Louise Simonson.

Continuity question: was it ever explained/addressed why Donald Pierce, cyborg mutant-hating bigot, joined up with a cabal of powerful evil mutants?

OzymandiasAV
06-02-2010, 03:45 PM
Yeah, that whole mid-80's period is rife with completely bizarre plot contrivances, like Professor X nearly being killed as a result of a hate crime, but hiding it from the rest of the time until he gets reinjured, wherein he almost immediately decides to turn over leadership to Conveniently Reformed Magneto.

That particular incident also goes back to Wolverine's ascension as a big-time draw during this period, thanks to Claremont and Frank Miller's revision of the Wolverine character. Once they flipped the switch and spiked the Bad@$$ Anti-Hero meter with the "new" Wolverine, it became increasingly hard to reconcile his position with the X-Men, who were still tied to more traditional superheroics. So, you had situations like that, where Wolverine would perform some extreme act of violence or decide, on a whim, to just up and leave the team to go on some undoubtedly Bad@$$ field trip, and the rest of the team would be left to rationalize whatever that wacky Wolverine was up to, just so that he could still remain a part of the team.

Continuity question: was it ever explained/addressed why Donald Pierce, cyborg mutant-hating bigot, joined up with a cabal of powerful evil mutants?

Well, Sebastian Shaw ended up funding the Sentinel program and Project Wideawake, so maybe self-persecution was one of the pre-requisites for membership in the Hellfire Club?

JDS
06-02-2010, 04:10 PM
That would explain the bondage and role-playing.

Sven
06-03-2010, 09:36 AM
People look back fondly on the Morrison run because it was a pretty good run in a book that had been absolutely terrible for a quarter of a century.

That's the thing about it: it's the X-Men for people who like the idea, but hated the books. People who actually thought the X-Men were good prior to Morrison coming in - and, frankly, god help their souls if they did - didn't like it as much.

estragon
05-24-2016, 11:58 AM
It's been six years since this thread.

In the meantime, have there been any modern X-Men (or other X-spinoff) runs in the years past Morrison and arguably Whedon that are worth reading? Or is the line still struggling?

(Also, if a mod sees this: it looks like this thread probably mostly belongs in the books forum.)

TheSL
05-24-2016, 12:09 PM
The Marvel Now Uncanny X-Men and All-New X-Men books were pretty good. Both were done by Bendis though, so they were set up to be something amazing and then kind of peter out at some point (ANX gets crossover fever and kind of loses its focus after the Battle of the Atom event).

I'd highly recommend Cable & X-Force from a couple years ago as a short run thing that is X-adjacent. It's a really odd team (Cable, Dr. Nemesis, Colossus, Forge, Boom Boom, Domino), but it worked. I'd also suggest the most recent X-Factor for similar weird team that works reasons (also, Peter David), but it also got axed way too soon.

NavelsAreNeat
05-24-2016, 12:12 PM
I will treat this as a thread I was thinking about making and discuss the X-Men films and tv shows:

X-Men TAS: Classic! Captured my imagination as a child. When I found out the series lasted until 1997 in 2000 when the movie came out, that seemed impossibly recent because I think only watched the first few years.

X-Men: Evolution: I liked it. Goth Rogue was definitely up my alley at the time.

Wolverine and the X-men: At this point was an adult and believe it or not I found this children's cartoon wanting! I also had a prejudice against Wolverine at the time and didn't like the creators because they were behind the joyless slaughterfests in one of the junior X-Books at the time. (New X-Men: Young X-Men: The New Mutants or Something)

Generation X: I saw this one before I knew it was affiliated with the X-Men. Barely remember it. I got the entire run of Generation X for about 70$ as a birthday present near when it ended and goddammit I read it all. Give or take some random one-shot crossovers~

Mutant X: I never saw this. I know it's not really an X-Men thing. I loved the idea of the Mutant X comic bc I think alternate realities are cool and this one was metal-as-hell, but I take it it's actually crap?? Who would've thought.

I haven't read an X-Men comic in some time.

Of the X-Films: I haven't seen Wolverine: Origins.

Adrenaline
05-24-2016, 12:12 PM
I have heard both Wolverine & the X-Men by Aaron and Uncanny X-Force by Remender are very good, but I haven't actually read them myself yet.

NavelsAreNeat
05-24-2016, 12:13 PM
I've read a bit of both. I think Uncanny X-Force looks very nice and has a good take on Apocalypse. (cute l'il boy)

NavelsAreNeat
05-24-2016, 12:15 PM
I actually really like all the teen spin-offs, although the last one that I read (but not the most recent) spent the last several years hilariously slaughtering so much of its young cast. How appealing!


yeah i definitely hated yost and kyle's book

Jeanie
05-24-2016, 12:21 PM
Spider-Man and the X-Men was both the best Spider-Man book and the best X-Men book in the last five years.

estragon
05-24-2016, 12:41 PM
Thanks to everyone offering recommendations!

Spider-Man and the X-Men was both the best Spider-Man book and the best X-Men book in the last five years.

This is something I did read and loved. It's a weird exception to me being out of touch because the writer (Eliott Kalan) is a host of one of my favorite podcasts (The Flop House). Was Wolverine and the X-Men that led into it any good?

I'd also suggest the most recent X-Factor for similar weird team that works reasons (also, Peter David), but it also got axed way too soon.

I read the first two Complete Collections of this and liked it, but then they stopped making them. Someday I should probably just give in and get Marvel Unlimited, I guess. But I like reading comics on paper...

Jeanie
05-24-2016, 12:50 PM
This is something I did read and loved. It's a weird exception to me being out of touch because the writer (Eliott Kalan) is a host of one of my favorite podcasts (The Flop House). Was Wolverine and the X-Men that led into it any good?

.

Eh, kinda hit or miss actually. Frankenstein's Murder Circus arc was in the Pretty Good range but the Hellfire Academy arc was bleh. If you can get it for cheap, then go ahead and read it, but otherwise read something else first.

Becksworth
05-24-2016, 03:52 PM
The detective agency era of X-Factor is also good stuff, so that would be my recommendation.

Ample Vigour
05-24-2016, 04:30 PM
Uncanny X-Force had some cool ideas but the execution lacked and it relied too heavily on bodycount for dramatic impact

estragon
05-26-2016, 09:17 AM
I'm reading Whedon's Astonishing run for the first time and I absolutely don't get how this gets grouped together with Morrison's run. It lacks Morrison's high concept approach, and the central villains so far as Generic Alien Guy and also Evil Holodeck. I guess he gets points for being consistently bland, because Generic Alien Guy and Evil Holodeck are also the villains in his two Avengers movies.

Worse, I skimmed through the back half of the run and Generic Alien Guy and also Evil Holodeck keep showing up in panels???

I'm not saying it's awful. It's fine I guess. It's a perfectly okay superhero book. But it's definitely not the successor to Morrison's run on New X-Men that I kept hearing it framed as.

Büge
05-26-2016, 09:23 AM
Well, it does include one of Whedon's most overused tropes...

estragon
05-26-2016, 09:28 AM
Also: He seems to want to show that he's a True Nerd who, unlike Morrison, Cares About You and Your Continuity, but he also seems to not have noticed that Cassandra Nova is Ernst now. Oops.

...it's possible this will get resolved because there's clearly a lot of weird psychic trickery in the storyline I'm in the middle of, but the flashback with Nova/Frost seems to suggest otherwise.

ajr82
05-26-2016, 09:48 AM
Most of what people give the Whedon run credit for is getting the character voices right.

That, and having John Cassaday on art.

Also, in terms of recent X-Men stuff that I've really enjoyed:

Kieron Gillen's runs on Uncanny X-Men were great except that he has Greg Land drawing most of it, and it kept getting interrupted by big events that sidetracked it. The story where Minster Sinister builds an underground steampunk 1890s London populated entirely by clones of himself is amazing, though.

"Interrupted by big events" also applies to Cullen Bunn's Magneto, which starts off as a great, tense story about Magneto travelling around the US rooting out anti-mutant operations and destroying them, then gets derailed by AXIS, then has him trying to rebuild Genosha, then finishes with a bullshit 3-issue Secret Wars tie-in.

Duane Swercynski's Cable has Cable running through a dark future trying to raise a baby (Hope, the "mutant messiah"), while being hunted by Bishop, who gradually destroys the entire world trying to narrow down the places where Cable could hide. It's better than it sounds, trust me.

I love virtually all of Jason Aaron's run on Wolverine & The X-Men. It's a really hijinks-heavy school story with the X-Men serving as really cranky teachers for a fun group of younger mutants. If you enjoyed "Riot at Xavier's" from the Morrison run, imagine a more cartoony take on that kind of story. Skip the second volume that Jason Latour did afterwards, it wasn't very good.

Rascally Badger
05-26-2016, 07:15 PM
Whedon's run is basically an X-Men's greatest hits. He doesn't bring much new to the book, but he executes his stories pretty well. Also, it is easy to forget how terrible every X-Men book was for nearly a decade before Morrison and then again immediately after him, so Whedon coming along with a solid take on the team felt like a Godsend.

TheSL
05-27-2016, 06:22 AM
I think more specifically it was bringing back a core group of the Claremont years that made it special for me. Typical Whedon-isms in storytelling got to me, but damn if it didn't feel good to have Storm/Colossus/Wolverine/Kitty back together.

And Cyclops too, I guess.

madhair60
05-27-2016, 07:16 AM
I know people really shit on Greg Land but it was his run with Gillen that got me back into comics again...

Adrenaline
05-27-2016, 07:16 AM
I think he's not too bad as long as you don't pay too much attention to which poses definitely came from porn

Octopus Prime
05-27-2016, 07:17 AM
Every time I see this thread I think it's asking about the best actual X-Men.

And the answer is clearly a tie between Nightcrawler, Colossus, Kitty and Storm.

Like, how can there be debate on this?

Adrenaline
05-27-2016, 07:19 AM
You're looking for "What is the best X-Man?"

Octopus Prime
05-27-2016, 07:51 AM
That's why I figured listing more then one would be acceptable.

That and I couldn't pick just one.

estragon
05-27-2016, 07:54 AM
I finished Whedon's run.

What a waste of Kitty to jerry-rig some stakes for this bland as hell story about generic aliens no one cares about. I can't believe he spent almost the entirety of 25 issues on Generic Alien Guy(s) and Evil Holodeck.

Moon Orbit
05-27-2016, 08:05 AM
I think he's not too bad as long as you don't pay too much attention to which poses definitely came from porn

Or the WWE, or the swimsuit issues of Sports Illustrated or

See the sad part is he's not a super bad artist when he's not ripping off everything else ever. He's not great, but he's not awful.

The problem is he's one of the most prolific plagiarists, if not the most prolific plagiarist, in the industry.

ajr82
05-27-2016, 08:08 AM
Greg Land is fine at drawing everything that isn't people's faces. It's why his Iron Man run is his best stuff, because he was mostly drawing people in masks and/or robot suits.

Every time he draws Emma Frost it makes me cringe, though.

Or this panel of of Pixie getting beaten by bigots:
http://41.media.tumblr.com/a325b68ef298efdab9d66df0bc8881d0/tumblr_n9kttxasgb1th8wa2o1_500.png

Moon Orbit
05-27-2016, 08:12 AM
Looks like he copied that from a woman singing.

estragon
05-27-2016, 08:14 AM
She loves being clubbed with a baseball bat!

Vaeran
05-27-2016, 08:18 AM
She loves being clubbed with a baseball bat!

NO KINKSHAMING

Zef
05-27-2016, 08:27 AM
Looks like he copied that from a woman singing.

A woman "singing" about the sweet mystery of life, sure.

Moon Orbit
05-27-2016, 08:34 AM
A woman "singing" about the sweet mystery of life, sure.

It honestly doesn't look like a porn copy to me. Looks like he copied some opera singer or somebody that sings with a very open mouth and just tweaked the eyes some.

BTW, nice reference to a good movie.

conchobhar
05-27-2016, 09:07 AM
Even putting aside Land's inappropriate models and outright plagiarism (which is tough, especially because it means he's incapable of drawing a woman without objectifying her, but bear with me), I think he's still goddamn awful. He has no sense of visual storytelling; there's never any sense of motion or dynamism to his stuff, his panel layouts are inept, and the panels themselves are often difficult to work out. It's just terrible, incompetent work all around.

Sven
05-27-2016, 11:43 AM
I think he's still goddamn awful. He has no sense of visual storytelling

Which is the logical outcome when you basically assemble your panels by first looking through your stash of reference materials and digitally cut out what you want. It's impossible to maintain basic panel-to-panel storytelling because the images weren't meant to flow together in the first place.

(He wasn't AS bad during his Birds of Prey / Nightwing (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a7/09/57/a70957e653b466a5fec03758683921c0.jpg) days*, but it got noticeable there at the end... then he went to Marvel and it got REALLY bad. His Ultimate FF run is like 90% pornface.)

You're looking for "What is the best X-Man?"

Isn't there literally only one answer to that question? (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/X-man1-1995.jpg)

TheSL
05-27-2016, 12:31 PM
Isn't there literally only one answer to that question? (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/93/X-man1-1995.jpg)

Surprisingly, X-Man is one of the worst X-Mans.

Octopus Prime
05-27-2016, 12:35 PM
When you're worse at being X-Man then Cable is, you e done something terribly wrong.

Moon Orbit
05-27-2016, 12:39 PM
When you're worse at being X-Man then Cable is, you e done something terribly wrong.

Indeed.

Cable when he's on his own and not crossing over with the X-Men is totally a cool and awesome character.

But then when they bring him back into the fold shit gets fucked up.

But X-Man...

God, I tihnk the only time he was remotely decent was his solo series where he fucking dies.

Sven
05-27-2016, 12:39 PM
Most of the 90s for the X-Men can be categorized as "you've done something terribly wrong."

Moon Orbit
05-27-2016, 12:46 PM
Most of the 90s for the X-Men can be categorized as "you've done something terribly wrong."

Zef
05-27-2016, 12:46 PM
What IS Cable's mutant power, anyway? Guns?

ghosttaster
05-27-2016, 12:50 PM
Yes, I believe Liefeld's original concept documents for Cable refer to his power as "biggest gun-having." Whether his spontaneous generation of backpacks and ammo belts is part of this we still do not know.

TheSL
05-27-2016, 12:53 PM
What IS Cable's mutant power, anyway? Guns?

Pretty much the same as Jean Grey's, but dialed way back because he mostly uses it to keep from getting eaten alive by the techno-organic virus. At least that was the case until a few years ago. Now someone fucked with the timestream somehow and made his powers instead be that he has limited precognition and no telepathy/telekinesis.

Octopus Prime
05-27-2016, 12:59 PM
If I recall my Marvel Trading Cards Series and/or Wizard Magazine character summaries, Cable would have had Phoenix-level telekinesis if he wasn't devoting so much of his mental energy to managing that.

Which is why the only indication there was about him being psychic was that one eye sometimes glowed.

ghosttaster
05-27-2016, 01:03 PM
Knowin' about Cable's techno-virus really brings a whole new level of tension to that classic X-Force bath sequence:

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/1070374/34_medium.jpg

Displaced in time and constantly staving off death with psychic powers, yet still coming with those sexy zingers. Oh Cable, you rascal!

Sven
05-27-2016, 01:14 PM
Was Domino an actual character before Liefeld, as well? Because I seem to recall her power was basically "lots of guns", too.

X-Force: Because we read New Titans and missed the point that Deathstroke was the bad guy.

Octopus Prime
05-27-2016, 01:19 PM
I believe her power was that she was unexpectedly lucky.

But, unlike other characters who have that as a power, like Longshot or Scarlet Witch, she only ever used it to shoot guns.

Mightyblue
05-27-2016, 01:24 PM
I mean, it's Liefield so it's probably intentional, but knees? Knees are important.

Zef
05-27-2016, 01:43 PM
I mean, it's Liefield so it's probably intentional, but knees? Knees are important.

Is that why Domino has approximately four of them?

And going by perspective, she's helluva taller than Cable. Maybe that's why she's leaning against the water and has pushed him all the way to the edge of that massive tub.

ghosttaster
05-27-2016, 01:59 PM
And going by perspective, she's helluva taller than Cable. Maybe that's why she's leaning against the water and has pushed him all the way to the edge of that massive tub.

He had to come to the past to truly be the little spoon

Büge
05-27-2016, 05:15 PM
eegVnInQtfo

There were actually some surprises in this. I didn't realize that Jean Grey was about average in terms of deaths/resurrections/fakeouts.