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View Full Version : My kingdom is WAY better than yours (Talkin' 'bout Dominion)


Stiv
10-06-2010, 11:15 AM
So I guess Prosperity came out this week? It's got some crazy cards, dudes. If you haven't taken a look at it, you should probably do so. It has cost-7 cards, meaning that a 7/1 split is no longer the most aggravating thing in the game! And those cost-7 cards are AWESOME. Read the list here if you haven't seen it. (http://www.play-board-games.com/dominion-prosperity-card-list/) The most interesting thing is a reaction card that's NOT specifically for attacks.

Let's discuss our favorite decks and any card combinations that are particularly good! I tend to favor small decks with lots of card manipulation (Tactician + Library + Secret Chamber/Cellar) because I love cycling shit. When you have 12/13+ and two buys every other turn, you can accumulate VP almost as fast as players getting their two turns to your one, and often faster if you have lots of gold in your deck.

shivam
10-06-2010, 11:17 AM
buy the green cards. its the only thing that matters.

Destil
10-06-2010, 05:16 PM
I had a really awesome deck with great hall, village, conspirator and upgrade at its core yesterday. Was planning on upgrading all of the conspirators to dukes/duchies on the last run through (many were upgrades of earlier halls and villages, which is also where my estates went), but I misjudged the size of the Provence pile Gahistu grabbed the last one before I started really 'going off,' putting me 12 points behind in the end. Easily had enough everything in the deck to win if I had just switched over to victory cards about 4-5 turns earlier. Still learning when the best time to do that is...

And those cost-7 cards are AWESOME. Read the list here if you haven't seen it. (http://www.play-board-games.com/dominion-prosperity-card-list/)Oh, wow. Colony and platinum don't count towards your 10 kingdom cards, huh? If not does the game end when the colony pile is empty? Does it make sense to include them in normal dominion?

Also, watchtower is awesome.

fugu13
10-06-2010, 05:32 PM
Colony and Platinum don't count as Kingdom cards; they're new basic cards that are included randomly in play proportional to how many Prosperity cards you're playing with (or however you want to choose to include them, of course). Provinces are still the privileged game ender.

Destil
10-06-2010, 05:35 PM
Provinces are still the privileged game ender.

Oh, the devious (though expensive!) strategies I can see emerging around that...

Luana
10-08-2010, 05:06 PM
Okay, loading up your hand with Coppersmiths and a bunch of copper is, like, so much awesome.

Crested Penguin
10-08-2010, 05:56 PM
Coppersmith is one of those cards I want to see succeed, but never seems to in the games I've played. It seems pretty dependent on something to increase your hand size maybe?

I've been waiting for Prosperity to show up on Amazon with a decent discount, or at least free shipping. It's hard to wait though :(

Destil
10-09-2010, 11:27 AM
I've never been able to get coppersmith to work, either. Last attempt was with Village/Bridge/Library/Coppersmith, but even once it gets going as soon as you start switching to victory cards they tend to junk up the deck to the point where it stops working.

tungwene
10-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Continuing the discussion from the board game thread.

Coppersmith by itself isn't too powerful even if you do stack them unless you're playing with a few other cards that significantly amplifies its power like Throne Room or Counting House (Prosperity):
Look through your discard pile, reveal any number of Copper cards from it, and put them into your hand.or King's Court (Prosperity):
You may choose an Action card in your hand. Play it three times.and some cards that let you draw extra cards.

Crested Penguin
10-10-2010, 11:11 AM
Counting House

Haha, wow, it's like it was made for Coppersmith.

widdershins
10-10-2010, 01:30 PM
Guess I'll move this here so Shivam doesn't lose his shit. :-/

Yeah, if Luana and Stiv didn't tell you guys already, the Coppersmith game we played actually had a perfect card set for making the coppersmith strategy work.

There were:

Markets (+1 action)
Some other +2 action card
Scouts (for removing victory cards from your next hand)
Libraries (pretty much an "instant province" card in this game)

Destil
10-10-2010, 01:46 PM
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that market is actually got to be the key card in a copper-smith deck, mostly because chaining 2-3 will give you a bunch of extra buys to pick up copper.

fugu13
10-10-2010, 09:23 PM
Personal best Dominion score, this game: 91.

Chang's personal best Dominion score, also this game: 90.

We had Duke, and a variety of cycling/filtering cards. I went Duke/Duchy (8 Duchies by the end, also 8 Dukes). I let Chang have all the Provinces (literally all of them: she bought all 12).

I would have won by a lot more, except she swindled one of my Duchies. If she had swindled more often in late game, she probably would have won.

fugu13
10-10-2010, 10:20 PM
Wow, that was a crazy game. Thief was available, so I decided to avoid money, and a basic idea I happened upon turned out to be amazing. My deck at the end of the game:

2 Throne Room
2 Baron
4 Estate
1 Secret Chamber
1 Steward (important early game, just extra card now)
10 Nobles
9 Provinces
8 Mining Village

It was possible to occasionally not have the necessary hand, but I had it all but once or twice once the engine was going.

I'd draw up my whole deck between Nobles and Mining Village, and have two actions left. I'd play Secret Chamber, ditching any cards I didn't need for the remaining combo (9 cards in my last play, for nine money). Then, I'd throne room a throne room into the two barons discarding the four estates, giving me 16 money and +4 Buys. On my last turn, I had 25 money and bought three provinces.

Turns tended to take a while, though, and the deck wasn't very fun for Chang to play against.

shivam
10-10-2010, 10:37 PM
Turns tended to take a while, though, and the deck wasn't very fun for Chang to play against.

I'm not here to troll your thread, but this is the fundamental problem i've run into with this game--if you're doing it right, the game is a complete chore for the other players, because you're going to build an infinite engine of some form, and just bulldoze. How do you avoid this from happening every single game?

Destil
10-10-2010, 10:44 PM
Different kingdom cards? Avoiding too many +action seems like it would solve that issue.

fugu13
10-11-2010, 01:39 AM
Some sets will have good long combos available (without disruption opportunities), but usually the best strategy is to try for a very focused deck without lengthy combos. For instance, with the suggested starter set beginners typically end up with decks full of villages and workshops, et cetera, while experienced players will frequently focus on remodeling their deck up into provinces (with the odd support card), until by the end the deck is little other than provinces and golds. Another one of the suggested sets is also easily misplayed, but an experienced player will buy Chapel and create an extraordinarily focused deck by rapidly discarding every single card they started the game with.

I was also aided by it being a two-player game. Even combos that can work, rarely work before everyone can buy all the provinces in a four player game.

As another example, the Duke/Duchy game didn't have especially long turns (though I did manage a 15 gold three buy turn that got me two duchies and a duke; it wasn't from an especially lengthy combo, though).

tungwene
10-11-2010, 01:46 AM
How do you avoid this from happening every single game?I blow up at him and he promises not to do it again.

More serious answer: It is possible to block someone from creating chains with attack cards but that game we played there were literally no attack cards that could've stopped fugu (and since that set fugu had selected cards he wanted to play with I accused him of unintentionally stacking the deck, so to speak). I hate the Sabateour card and hate playing with it but it is the perfect card for destroying someone's engine. Same goes for Swindler for a cheaper, lighter variant. Building an effective engine is also harder if you're playing against more than one person because everyone will buy up the necessary cards right out from under you before you get a chance to assemble your deck.

pence
10-11-2010, 06:50 AM
For instance, with the suggested starter set beginners typically end up with decks full of villages and workshops, et cetera, while experienced players will frequently focus on remodeling their deck up into provinces (with the odd support card), until by the end the deck is little other than provinces and golds.

We played for the first time this weekend and after four games or so my core strategy became trashing my starter cards ASAP - So while everyone else was taking 1-minute turns with villages and maybe - maybe getting a province out of it, I would frequently say 'Smithy, buy a Province, go.' We're all still very much in the beginner phase, though. No one has managed a truly degenerate deck.

Crested Penguin
10-11-2010, 09:48 AM
I'm not here to troll your thread, but this is the fundamental problem i've run into with this game--if you're doing it right, the game is a complete chore for the other players, because you're going to build an infinite engine of some form, and just bulldoze. How do you avoid this from happening every single game?

Long action chains are usually the hallmark of a bad player, because they don't work. It's almost a psychological trick - it appears really strong, and inexperienced players are drawn to it but usually amounts to very little compared to a focused deck.

Theoretically if the game went on really long it may be possible to collect enough resources to do something pretty impressive, but by that point the skilled players have already bought the last province.

So to answer your question, the game discourages really long action chains because they are a losing strategy, and players who want to win stop using them.

fugu13
10-11-2010, 10:36 AM
We played for the first time this weekend and after four games or so my core strategy became trashing my starter cards ASAP - So while everyone else was taking 1-minute turns with villages and maybe - maybe getting a province out of it, I would frequently say 'Smithy, buy a Province, go.' We're all still very much in the beginner phase, though. No one has managed a truly degenerate deck.


Yep, definitely. The main problem with the absolute simplest focused decks is, especially with two or three players, you can end up with so many victory cards that you have a hard time drawing anything else by the end -- but you're usually fast enough in the beginning that it doesn't really matter. Pick up 1 or 2 multiple draw cards and all the effectively costless deck filterers you can (Spy, Scout, you get the idea) when you have some extra, and you'll have much greater staying power at the end of the game. As everyone gets better at the refined decks, you'll find the ability to choose the right selection of supporting cards depending on the cards available becomes more important. Also, if you're playing with cards that sufficiently disrupt other decks, or no trashing capabilities, or both, those can really change the game.

I only play a combo if it has three properties: 1) the possibility for multiple buys that matter and 2) natural lifting power; there isn't a point in the early game at which I'm stalled and just playing cards for no (or ultimately negative vs having a little more money) effect and 3) can't be disrupted too easily.

Note: I don't consider Duke/Duchy a combo. That just changes what the target goal is from have 8 money to have 5 money + something that lets me get another Duke/Duchy (upgrade, remodel, feast, another five money and an extra buy), affecting deck composition a bit. But it isn't really a combo.

The combo deck I relate here had a great lifting capability (especially considering Thief was around and played, so buying better money was worthless) due to starting with Baron + Secret Chamber, and adding Throne Room shortly after, and then as I got victory cards purchasing lots of Mining Villages and Nobles in order to ensure I got the combo going, and eventually scaling up to a second Throne Room and Baron (and the necessary Estates, of course).

I had another combo deck in a later game that evening that didn't have nearly as long turns (or as sure a win), but had an interesting property: it cycled both my deck and my opponent's deck. It was mostly Spy and Tribute, meaning I could manipulate what Tribute benefit I got to a certain extent (usually into more actions in the first Tribute or two, and then money in later Tributes) as well as filter my own deck for the useful cards.

Thing is, Spy is a great card to have lots of in almost any deck, and Tribute is very good to have one or two of, especially if all your other action cards (except for a Baron and a Coppersmith I picked up to add more money element -- I'd just buy a copper when mine was used) are +action and there are Great Halls in play (Tribute gives you +2 cards and +2 actions when you flip one of those -- they added a nice combo to my deck, too, as I'd frequently Spy -> Great Hall -> Tribute, which is a bit better than just Spy -> Tribute). This made the deck very easy to boostrap, and very hard to disrupt.

fugu13
10-11-2010, 10:43 AM
The last game I had a nice deck that didn't rely on long chains at all. I started with workshop and a trashing card (I forget what), then added a Throne Room shortly after, along with whatever that draw 3 put one back on top of your deck action is (key: Throne Room was a good play with just about any of my actions). Then I started going to town on Remodel, so by the end I was getting gold or provinces all the time (even if I never bought any of them), and had turns where I did things like Throne Room a Remodel to trash two Gold and get two Provinces. Getting remodels was greatly helped by occasionally Throne Rooming a Workshop.

Again, not a combo deck because I never really played a lot of cards in one turn, I just had a lot of Remodels in the deck, and eventually a lot of Gold (from Remodeling 4 costers, such as other Remodels). Throne Room provided a nice bit of speed, but if I didn't draw it it wasn't a big deal, and if I had it with almost any action (including Remodel, which I was virtually guaranteed to have in nearly every hand until I remodeled most of them into other things), it was useful. Really just a variant on the classic remodel deck (where you do nothing but buy and use remodels; not too bad, but not quite fast enough, especially with four players).

shivam
10-11-2010, 11:32 AM
\
So to answer your question, the game discourages really long action chains because they are a losing strategy, and players who want to win stop using them.

really? cause i win almost every game with giant cycling engine decks. run the cycle, get money, buy green cards, win.

also, i'm only using the base set, which i understand is known for being totally interaction free, aside from the thief.

Stiv
10-11-2010, 11:33 AM
How do you avoid this from happening every single game?

You don't. My biggest problem with the game is that it leads to negative feedback loops with the right cards, but that's why attack cards are included (although even those are of limited use against some decks).

This doesn't make the game less fun to me, but it's a personal taste thing. The fact that turns in games I play tend to go very fast are a bonus, even if there are long action chains - Dominion isn't a game that requires a lot of thought about what to do with your hand. Usually your action sequence is obvious. Not playing with Alchemy helps because those cards are terrible and do take an obscene amount of time to resolve.

shivam
10-11-2010, 11:34 AM
it got to a point that i'd be watching tv and surfing talking time while playing the game with my wife, and she'd be trying, and i'd be winning without knowing it, and it wasn't fun for anyone.

fugu13
10-11-2010, 11:49 AM
really? cause i win almost every game with giant cycling engine decks. run the cycle, get money, buy green cards, win.


Then with most sets of kingdom cards, someone who was more experienced at the game could probably beat you fairly consistently, without using giant cycling decks. A strong deck with the base set usually involves playing at most one or two action cards a turn.

spineshark
10-11-2010, 12:07 PM
Not playing with Alchemy helps because those cards are terrible and do take an obscene amount of time to resolve.
hahaha, that Throne Room + Golem + Possession game took almost an hour. So disgusting. Seaside and the base set are definitely a lot better about keeping things moving than Alchemy and Intrigue.

tungwene
10-11-2010, 01:38 PM
I had another combo deck in a later game that evening that didn't have nearly as long turns (or as sure a win), but had an interesting property: it cycled both my deck and my opponent's deck. It was mostly Spy and Tribute, meaning I could manipulate what Tribute benefit I got to a certain extent (usually into more actions in the first Tribute or two, and then money in later Tributes) as well as filter my own deck for the useful cards.Oh no, the second combo you crafted took longer. Every turn or two it would cycle through both your and my deck and the worst thing was when Tribute didn't play the way you wanted and you would end your turn with all your cards played before you in a 10-card combo and the rest in your hand and you wouldn't have enough money for a Province.

it got to a point that i'd be watching tv and surfing talking time while playing the game with my wife, and she'd be trying, and i'd be winning without knowing it, and it wasn't fun for anyone.One thing you could do to make it more interesting is try to craft a set without cards that create long combos like Village, Market, and Festival. Put in cards like Chapel that allow you to trash your deck.

Another thing you can do is set personal victory goals for yourself. For example, fugu likes the idea of being able to buy two provinces in one turn, or a zero money deck when a card like Thief is in play. He will deliberately not play his best game in order to fine tune his deck to achieve that goal.

Crested Penguin
10-11-2010, 01:52 PM
really? cause i win almost every game with giant cycling engine decks. run the cycle, get money, buy green cards, win.

also, i'm only using the base set, which i understand is known for being totally interaction free, aside from the thief.

Then you're using the least bad strategy at the table. That doesn't make it a good strategy. If no one at your table starts picking up that they could try something different next game to pick up provinces more quickly, it will work. People at my table have gone through cycling phases and are disabused of it pretty quickly when it fails.

One of the things that's hard to pick up early on it when you reach the "turn" where you should start picking up points instead of improving your deck. If everyone at the table is just focused on improving their deck, the game can go long and big action chains start to bear fruit. The thing is, a good player builds a deck that "turns" pretty fast, and an action chain deck will be halfway ready to go when the game is over.

shivam
10-11-2010, 02:21 PM
yeah, maybe i articulated wrong, but my strategy is to do whatever gets me money the fastest in order to get the greens.
generally, that ends up being a lot of throne and council shenanigans.

fugu13
10-11-2010, 02:38 PM
Often what gets one money the fastest is not obvious. For instance, if Chapel is out, one of the best ways to start the game (modulo everything else that's available, but pretty much no matter what is available if you're playing with the base set) is to buy a chapel right away, then once you get the Chapel in your hand, trash everything else in your hand (coppers and estates). Continue, trashing everything except the silvers you'll buy. When you get a few silvers at once (it will happen very quickly), buy gold. When you have a few gold, buy provinces. It is a very effective deck, with the only downside being that it will stall out towards the end as the money density is overwhelmed by the province density. But that's a very good deck, with no combos to speak of, and only one action card.

Of course, if Thief is in play, or any of a few cards from expansions, that game plan goes out the window.

If Chapel isn't in play but remodel is, buying tons of remodels will still typically outperform the strategy you outlined (and is also less vulnerable to Thief, especially if there's another 6 coster to take the place of Gold in the deck).

tungwene
10-11-2010, 02:41 PM
yeah, maybe i articulated wrong, but my strategy is to do whatever gets me money the fastest in order to get the greens.
generally, that ends up being a lot of throne and council shenanigans.Then the next time you play, take out Throne and Council Room from your set since you already know you have a strategy for winning with those cards and try cards you don't always win with and see how it changes the game.

mugenkokoro
10-11-2010, 03:14 PM
Just found out about Platinum and Colonies yesterday while hanging out with my sister, I was like "Whuuuuuuuuuut". I'm excited to play with Prosperity. If/when somebody on here gets it, let us know how some of the new cards play.

widdershins
10-11-2010, 04:00 PM
yeah, maybe i articulated wrong, but my strategy is to do whatever gets me money the fastest in order to get the greens.
generally, that ends up being a lot of throne and council shenanigans.

Hehe, I have this great strategy for Catan. I build more stuff than anyone else, and I win.

I won't argue that Dominion is the most balanced game in the world, but it's designed in such a way that each game I've played have required much different strategies. Yes, you're trying to get money so that you can then buy victory cards, but depending on the cards on the table, the most efficient way to do that can change drastically. It's telling that I have no idea what Throne or Council are after playing ~8 or 9 games by now.

tungwene
10-11-2010, 04:50 PM
Just found out about Platinum and Colonies yesterday while hanging out with my sister, I was like "Whuuuuuuuuuut". I'm excited to play with Prosperity. If/when somebody on here gets it, let us know how some of the new cards play.We are getting it tomorrow. We'll let you know.

I won't argue that Dominion is the most balanced game in the world, but it's designed in such a way that each game I've played have required much different strategies. Yes, you're trying to get money so that you can then buy victory cards, but depending on the cards on the table, the most efficient way to do that can change drastically. It's telling that I have no idea what Throne or Council are after playing ~8 or 9 games by now.Throne Room lets you use the powers on an action card twice. Council Room lets you draw four cards and plus one buy and everyone else draws one card. Sounds pretty great but if you chain them when you're playing with someone who's been using Chapel to fine tune his deck you're helping him out too by increasing the number of cards he draws/cycling his deck for him faster. While individual sets of cards can be horribly unbalanced, game to game luck becomes more evened out.

Edit: While I've played games using Throne Room and Council Room I've never played a game using both.

Crested Penguin
10-11-2010, 09:40 PM
Then the next time you play, take out Throne and Council Room from your set since you already know you have a strategy for winning with those cards and try cards you don't always win with and see how it changes the game.

This is a good idea. Sometimes chapel comes up twice in a row and we don't want a chapel game so it gets tossed and draw something else. Variety in kingdom cards is the thing that keeps you coming back, after all.

tungwene
10-12-2010, 04:26 PM
We are getting it tomorrow. We'll let you know.Blast, due to various reasons the game store we frequent only got one copy and it was gone by the time we got there.

pence
10-14-2010, 07:42 AM
Someone implemented this online, with all the expansions, solitaire and normal multiplayer, and apparently the blessing of the game's designer: http://dominion.isotropic.org/

Prepare to lose hours on a game that moves twice as fast due to the lack of shuffling time.

Crested Penguin
10-14-2010, 08:51 AM
Wow this is like 1000% better than BSW.

spineshark
10-14-2010, 11:24 AM
That is a nice little program.

Prosperity's not bad either! Played one round with that set on it, though I can't remember the exact card set. I played a simple money game (which was highly effective; despite having Swindler in play there was no threat of losing gold since there weren't any other $6 cards) facilitated a bit with the Chapel and the new Expand card. My opponent whored out +draws and +actions, and near the end of the game had a turn that took about 3 minutes and churned through his entire deck.

...for one buy.

I won by two points, but in retrospect I realize it's because he made a critical error, swindling one of my Cities for a Duchy, I guess in the hopes that it would crap up my deck just enough. But I'd also started Expanding Colonies into themselves (if I didn't have a better option) so the game would end sooner. I think I played well enough.

Stiv
10-16-2010, 12:29 PM
Okay, that online thing is pretty great and obviously we, the citizens of Talking Time, should play a game sometime. Skype/Vent optional for the trash talk that makes Dominion more fun. Maybe you guys are down with this idea?

Luana
10-16-2010, 01:01 PM
I'm down! If we get enough interest rolling, I can see if I can get my Vent server running again for this.

Destil
10-16-2010, 01:04 PM
Oh, I'm down.

shivam
10-16-2010, 01:28 PM
i'll play too.

mugenkokoro
10-16-2010, 09:08 PM
Yes yes, please let me know if you do this sometime.

Destil
10-16-2010, 11:22 PM
Someone else should get in on this, it's pretty awesome.

Merus
10-17-2010, 01:18 AM
I won't argue that Dominion is the most balanced game in the world, but it's designed in such a way that each game I've played have required much different strategies.

For instance, if Pirate Ship is on the table, buy Pirate Ships and prevent anyone else from doing anything while you get all the gold. Seriously broken card, that.

Destil
10-17-2010, 01:39 AM
For instance, if Pirate Ship is on the table, buy Pirate Ships and prevent anyone else from doing anything while you get all the gold. Seriously broken card, that.

I just played three games in a row with it. Bleh.

shivam
10-17-2010, 01:53 AM
i was considering this game today, and think i figured out why it bugs me so much---i wanted to like this game. Everyone said it was the best game ever, and everyone sold it to high heaven, and i bought into the hype. And the game i found was passable, if kinda solitaire and boring, and that was incredibly disappointing.

Merus
10-17-2010, 01:59 AM
i was considering this game today, and think i figured out why it bugs me so much---i wanted to like this game. Everyone said it was the best game ever, and everyone sold it to high heaven, and i bought into the hype. And the game i found was passable, if kinda solitaire and boring, and that was incredibly disappointing.
This is my feeling as well - a lot of my distaste for the game is that I don't really get it, and everyone else seems to like it a whole lot and that makes me uncomfortable.

Eddie
10-17-2010, 12:48 PM
I think a lot of the appeal of the game is that it's easy to 'get.' One firend in particular of mine loves this game, but she dislikes Race for the Galaxy (which I think is a better game). Her big reason? She can win at Dominions, but struggles to figure out a path to victory in Race.

It also doesn't help that there isn't much balance between cards of various costs. This leads to games where often a full half of the cards are suboptimal to play with, which is kind of sucky. Powerhouse cards such as Dukes, Withces, and Pirate Ships also kind of hurt the game in my opinion.

- Eddie

tungwene
10-17-2010, 02:12 PM
It also doesn't help that there isn't much balance between cards of various costs. This leads to games where often a full half of the cards are suboptimal to play with, which is kind of sucky. Powerhouse cards such as Dukes, Withces, and Pirate Ships also kind of hurt the game in my opinion.I beg to differ that there are cards that are that powerful. A card's power is dependent on the other cards in the game. Remember the game fugu described awhile back that he and I played with Duke that he won by 1 point? Had I Swindled just one more Duke or Duchy card out of his deck I would've won the game. We introduced someone to the game on Saturday and one of the sets we played with was the recommended Size Distortion set (a set we hadn't played ourselves since we first got the game). Our beginner saw the Witch card and bought up a couple of 'em. Neither of us bought one. He hit us with Witch six, seven, eight, I lost count times but at the end of the game neither of us had a single curse card in our deck because we'd Chapeled them all.

I've never played with Pirate Ship.

Eddie
10-17-2010, 02:30 PM
I beg to differ that there are cards that are that powerful. A card's power is dependent on the other cards in the game. Remember the game fugu described awhile back that he and I played with Duke that he won by 1 point? Had I Swindled just one more Duke or Duchy card out of his deck I would've won the game. We introduced someone to the game on Saturday and one of the sets we played with was the recommended Size Distortion set (a set we hadn't played ourselves since we first got the game). Our beginner saw the Witch card and bought up a couple of 'em. Neither of us bought one. He hit us with Witch six, seven, eight, I lost count times but at the end of the game neither of us had a single curse card in our deck because we'd Chapeled them all.

I've never played with Pirate Ship.

I'm not saying there aren't cards that help counter other cards, but in reference to what you're talking about, there are certain cards that fundamentally dictate how a game will play out. You either need to get on the train (i.e. dukes) or hope there's a card to counter the train (i.e. chapels). It happens that some cards are just so strong on their own that they distort the cards. Put another way, everytime you play the game, note the number of cards out of the random ten that aren't purchased at all by any players. Is it good or bad design that this effect occurs?

I would also point out that Chapel and Swindler are fine cards on their own, regardless of what else is being played.

- Eddie

tungwene
10-17-2010, 02:49 PM
I suppose it's only fair if I post what cards I think are overpowered. Chapel and to a lesser extent Remodel. Secret Chamber can be very broken in games with cards that let you draw more and play more action cards and a viable alternative in money decreasing games where Thief, Sabateour, and Pirate Ship (?). Minion can be stupid powerful provided there are cards like Steward, Chapel, Trading Post that lets you fine tune your deck. Scout is a powerful card for its price especially if any special Intrigue victory cards are in play. Coppersmith is (I hesitate to call it broken because it's hard to set up) more useful if you can get it to combo with Chancellor and Counting House.

One card I often see people say is overpowered is Sabateour but I just can't see it. It's incredibly annoying in early game but it just sets you back a turn or two. The absolute worst the card can do is blow up your Provinces and turn them into Gold (with which you can buy more Provinces again setting you back a turn or two, so scary!). It's more effective as a psychological attack than an attack card.

tungwene
10-17-2010, 03:05 PM
Put another way, everytime you play the game, note the number of cards out of the random ten that aren't purchased at all by any players. Is it good or bad design that this effect occurs?I argue it's neither. When I'm playing seriously I usually only use up to four types of cards but that's just how I play. I see what cards are good for me but that doesn't mean the other people I'm playing with can't find a different winning strategy with different cards in the set. Also, my inclination in a game where a "game winner" card is in play like Duke or Gardens is in play is to not to buy it because if "everyone" is buying them I should be trying to maximize my lead in another way because I view every round where people are scrambling to buy up all the special victory cards I have an extra turn to build up my deck.

More complete answer: the effect is a sign people are playing poorly. Bandwagoning someone's strategy instead of devising your own just means the person who knows how to play the strategy best wins.

Edit: fugu and I just played a game with Duke and neither of us bought a single Duke. The game was over so quickly it never made sense to buy the card. The only Duchies were bought by me, once because I had an extra buy and once because I didn't have enough money for a Province in the late game, and Duke only becomes worth buying when you have at least three Duchies in the deck but I never reached that point.

fugu13
10-17-2010, 03:11 PM
While there are some cards that turn out to be useful more often than others, I don't think there are any cards that always define the terms of the game (in terms of "must buy and/or counter"). Chapel's close, but that's about it. Sometimes when Baron is there, it is an okay early game buy and useless later. Witch is hardly ever effective if there's any choose to trash capability, unless there's an easy way to multiply witches. I've only played with Pirate Ship once.

As for some cards being useful in some sets of ten, that definitely happens, but it isn't really avoidable: the number of possible card combinations for Dominion at the moment is insane. If a card combination seems overly focused on a particular small subset of the cards, play with a different combo.

I will say that I'm finding that as my play improves, one situation I'm seeing is that I buy one card, once, at just the right time, and it provides my deck with that slight change in character that gives it a tiny advantage. I'll often trash the card later, if that's an option, when the balance changes. That is, there are fewer and fewer times I've never contemplated buying any of a certain card of the ten (though usually once I've bought certain other cards the field of desirable possibilities narrows considerably).

Destil
10-17-2010, 04:32 PM
Chapel is pretty game-warping just because everyone can always buy it right from the get-go. There's rarely a reason not to, so it can make the early game very sameish.

Pirate Ship is absolutely disgusting and totally warps every game I've seen it in.

I haven't played with any other cards that are really on the same level of those two. Sometimes I'm annoyed at cards for bring annoying or for being a bit too luck dependent (particularly some attacks that can put one player ahead to the point that whoever hits first gets a big lead, Pirate Ship's guilty of that, too).

Luana
10-17-2010, 06:53 PM
Chapel is pretty game-warping just because everyone can always buy it right from the get-go. There's rarely a reason not to, so it can make the early game very sameish.

In the second game we played today, I actually didn't buy a Chapel at all. I probably would've done a lot better deck-cycling-wise if I had been able to trash my coppers and such, but whatever. It wasn't so bad.

The first game, however, was pretty awesome. With two Counting Houses and a few Ventures, I was able to rock a deck full of Coppers. Where everyone else was buying [+1 Action card that had you draw three cards, trashing one, discarding one, and putting one on top of your deck?]*, I just used my Thief to get even more Copper from the other dudes and Secret Chambers to cycle out curses and VP from my hand. Also, being about to counter [attack card that makes you either trash your curse in hand or draw a curse and a copper]* with Watchtower helped stack my deck with even more copper.

I like money.

* - I would look up the names of the cards, but I'm on my phone and can't do multiple windows.

Stiv
10-17-2010, 07:21 PM
Going to be playing the online Dominion Pence pointed out for a few hours tonight. You are all welcome to join me.

Also, Race is in fact better than Dominion and Pirate Ship is in fact bullshit. The problem with a lot of Dominion attack cards is that they interact well with one very specific reaction card.

shivam
10-17-2010, 07:37 PM
good game, stiv. i daresay i didn't recognize a single card we played with but Mine.

Necronopticous
10-17-2010, 09:01 PM
So, I'm making this (http://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic395648.jpg) and I'm extremely excited about it.

shivam
10-17-2010, 09:14 PM
what is that, dominion without cards?

Eddie
10-17-2010, 09:20 PM
I argue it's neither. When I'm playing seriously I usually only use up to four types of cards but that's just how I play. I see what cards are good for me but that doesn't mean the other people I'm playing with can't find a different winning strategy with different cards in the set.

It's pretty simple why you only choose up to four cards: certain strategies are better than others. Sometimes those strategies work on the combination of two relatively balanced cards (i.e. Mine and Remodel) while others rely on abusing a single card to power your way to victory (i.e. Pirate Ship). A dominant set of strategies inevitably occurs in pretty much every game I can think of. "Diversified Economy" for example, is a powerhouse in the base Race for the Galaxy game. You'd be crazy not to use it, because its raw power trumps pretty much any other strategy you could deploy.

The fact that this effect happens is not really a problem if you design around it. Dominion did not design around it.

Take my example of Dukes for instance. I played a four player game with my friend Dave, Justin, and Julie. Dave and Justin went for Dukes, while me and Julie went for the more traditional Provinces win.

Dave ended up with more points than me and Julie combined at the end of the game.

He also came in second.

More complete answer: the effect is a sign people are playing poorly. Bandwagoning someone's strategy instead of devising your own just means the person who knows how to play the strategy best wins.

The effect is not about poor play and everything around poor design. It's a given that when presented with two players playing the same strategy, the better player will win. That how it should be! The flaw in your reasoning assumes that strategies change in a game like Dominion, when they really don't.

You can pick any 10 cards and work out a strategy that will give you the best odds of winning. If you get these same cards again, the strategy still applies! You can compare this to say, Chess, which starts with the same setup every game.

Now, imagine if the strategy didn't revolve around needing 10 specific cards, but only 9 (the 10th card being completely superflouous), reasonable in Dominion, right? Of course, maybe you don't need 9 specific cards. Maybe only 8... or 7... or...

The problem is that some of Dominon's cards are so powerful that most of the time, the other 9 don't matter. In basic Dominion, Witch is so powerful that you can literally win the majority of your games by doing this:

Do I have 3 treasure? Buy a Silver.
Do I have 4 treasure? Buy a Silver.
Do I have 5 treasure? Buy a Witch.
Do I have 6 treasure? Buy a Gold.
Do I have 8 treasure? Buy a Province.

Add one or two Villages for flavour, and you've got a strategy that will beat the pants off of nearly any other one. That's not good game design. At least when I lose to Diversified Economy in Race I know it was because of luck.

- Eddie

fugu13
10-17-2010, 09:25 PM
Add one or two Villages for flavour, and you've got a strategy that will beat the pants off of nearly any other one.

That's just not true. I'm fairly confident I'd beat most people playing that progression pretty soundly, with most groups of cards.

(edit: and one reason I'm pretty confident is, I do).

Crested Penguin
10-17-2010, 10:28 PM
Witch's value is really dependent on the other cards available. If there are reaction cards or trashing cards available I don't even bother because the major effect (curses) is easily mitigated.

Destil
10-17-2010, 10:45 PM
How `bout them thieves, guys?

Crested Penguin
10-17-2010, 10:59 PM
They're alright. But really, how about them Chancellors?

pence
10-17-2010, 11:00 PM
I'm surprised I actually scored 11 points in that game. I liked the swindler turning everyone's silvers into masquerades the most.

Destil
10-17-2010, 11:12 PM
I'm surprised I actually scored 11 points in that game. I liked the swindler turning everyone's silvers into masquerades the most.I had 1 point. One.

Luana
10-18-2010, 12:03 AM
How `bout them thieves, guys?

More like how 'bout them oh god I just got completely stomped in that second game.

I liked the Thieves well enough, obviously! Everyone trashing/taking my coppers was the best thing that could have happened, and I screwed up quite a bit in that first game.

Anyway, Destil, you had one point in that game?! It's funny, considering that you had almost double my VP in our one-on-one match.

tungwene
10-18-2010, 12:38 AM
Take my example of Dukes for instance. I played a four player game with my friend Dave, Justin, and Julie. Dave and Justin went for Dukes, while me and Julie went for the more traditional Provinces win.

Dave ended up with more points than me and Julie combined at the end of the game.

He also came in second.And in my example game where one person went for a Duke strategy the winner only won by one point. Somehow even though we've played with the exact same card and people using the exact same strategy we had completely opposite experiences.

You can pick any 10 cards and work out a strategy that will give you the best odds of winning. If you get these same cards again, the strategy still applies!Assumimg you're playing the same people again with the same cards I'd think the same strategy would be less effective the second time because the people you're playing with might've seen through your strategy and found a way to counter it or thought of a better strategy of their own.

Now, imagine if the strategy didn't revolve around needing 10 specific cards, but only 9 (the 10th card being completely superflouous), reasonable in Dominion, right? Of course, maybe you don't need 9 specific cards. Maybe only 8... or 7... or...I'm not quite sure what you're saying about needing 10 cards. Are you saying reducing the random draw to a number less than 10 will make the game more balanced?

The problem is that some of Dominon's cards are so powerful that most of the time, the other 9 don't matter.Again and again I've been saying such a card DOES NOT EXIST. In my opinion there is no such card that is a game winner/breaker in every game. *I've seen people play games operating under such assumptions and done the same and in my experience playing like that rarely wins you the game.

In basic Dominion, Witch is so powerful that you can literally win the majority of your games by doing this:

Do I have 3 treasure? Buy a Silver.
Do I have 4 treasure? Buy a Silver.
Do I have 5 treasure? Buy a Witch.
Do I have 6 treasure? Buy a Gold.
Do I have 8 treasure? Buy a Province.

Add one or two Villages for flavour, and you've got a strategy that will beat the pants off of nearly any other one. That's not good game design. At least when I lose to Diversified Economy in Race I know it was because of luck.

- EddieIn my experience, Witch is an annoyance at worst and the only time I find it useful for me to buy is if it's the only card that lets me draw more cards. I am really curious how it can be that powerful.

Also, I used to think Village was a really useful card when I first started playing but I've played more games than I care to count where someone's turn consists of playing a string of villages with no actions or money to show for it at the end.

shivam
10-18-2010, 12:40 AM
good games, everyone.

tungwene
10-18-2010, 12:41 AM
How `bout them thieves, guys?I don't think I've ever played a game where they did that much damage. I think someone should write a little equation that shows how its power increases exponentially for every player you add to your game.

I had 3 points at the end of that game.

Destil
10-18-2010, 12:52 AM
Dukes, gardens and whatnot are some of my favorite cards. Changing the victory conditions is the most interesting design space in Dominion.

I was playing a game with 3 people where I was one card away from having my gardens be as awesome as I was hoping. I was tied with the other player I had been jockeying with for Provinces for with 6 gardens and a 39 card deck at the end. I figured he had won. Well, that card in alchemy that gives 1 point per 3 action cards in your deck? The third guy doubled our combined score with it.

Eddie
10-18-2010, 09:01 AM
I sort of feel from the response that we should quasi-scientifically test the Witch's power. Say, base set only, witches every game (other 9 random) and have one player forgo Witches, while forcing the other player to buy nothing but treasure, victory point cards, witches, and say, three other action cards. See what the win/loss percentage looks like.

- Eddie

Destil
10-18-2010, 09:29 AM
I sort of feel from the response that we should quasi-scientifically test the Witch's power. Say, base set only, witches every game (other 9 random) and have one player forgo Witches, while forcing the other player to buy nothing but treasure, victory point cards, witches, and say, three other action cards. See what the win/loss percentage looks like.

- Eddie

If I'm bored at work I may write a program to do just that...

Necronopticous
10-18-2010, 10:12 AM
I sort of feel from the response that we should quasi-scientifically test the Witch's power. Say, base set only, witches every game (other 9 random) and have one player forgo Witches, while forcing the other player to buy nothing but treasure, victory point cards, witches, and say, three other action cards. See what the win/loss percentage looks like.

- Eddie
Cursing is only a great strategy in a small percentage of setups. I'm not sure why you're so enamored with it. If there is any card that can trash on the table, you're not going to get much further with Witch than you would with any other card. There are also tons of strategies that make curses worthwhile in your deck. Possession, Gardens, Philosopher's Stone, Ambassador, Masquerade--the list goes on. It's true that there are going to games where there is just no good countermeasure to a curse strategy on the table, but everyone has access to the cursing card in these games so you should and will lose if you aren't able to assess that.

Also, it's natural to have a favorite card.

Traumadore
10-18-2010, 10:18 AM
There are enough cards to track curses or defend from them, but it sucks if there aren't any in a game where the witch appears. One thing we were doing wrong early on was playing with too many curses, as well. With only 10 curses per player in the bank it's possible for the witch to become essentially dead cards if 2 or 3 players choose to use them. I have seen witch decks stall late game because of this.

Dukes are more of a problem in my opinion because it forces every player to acquire the dukes/duchys , because if anyone gets ahead they'll be pretty unstoppable.

Destil
10-18-2010, 11:23 AM
Dukes are more of a problem in my opinion because it forces every player to acquire the dukes/duchys , because if anyone gets ahead they'll be pretty unstoppable.

That's no different from a Provence/Colony race, though... and depending on the setup the provincials may have more of a say on when the game ends, which is important.

Anyway, Destil, you had one point in that game?! It's funny, considering that you had almost double my VP in our one-on-one match.

That last turn of that game was amazing for me. Kings Court on Kings Court on Counsel Room, Expand, Expand. Expand two Platinum to colonies, buy a province and a duchy.

fugu13
10-18-2010, 11:35 AM
With only 10 curses per player in the bank

Not even that many. You subtract one from the number of players before multiplying by ten. There just aren't enough curses to sink someone's deck if there's even a small trashing capability, and even without that there often aren't enough to cause a serious enough differential vs someone who tools up faster by not buying witches.

Not that with certain combos witch isn't awesome, but it isn't so inherently awesome by itself.

Eddie
10-18-2010, 01:48 PM
The strength of the Witch is two fold. The first is the whole 'draw two cards' part, which keeps it relevent most of the game. The second part is clogging up your opponent's deck; people keep talking about how 'curses aren't so bad if you can trash them' but it doesn't matter if you're trashing them. The negative victory points are the secondary effect of curses; the main effect is to clog up your opponents' deck with worthless cards.

Put another way, if you're Chapelling a Curse card away I've still come out on top.

Necronopticous]Possession, Gardens, Philosopher's Stone, Ambassador, Masquerade--the list goes on.

Also, as I mentioned before, I'm referring to Witch in the basic setup. It's awesome that there are new cards to help counteract it, but for most new players they won't necessarily have all these available tools to fight one.
'
Also, Gardens are not an effective 'counter' to Witches. If I've given you 10 curses and you grab 10 Gardens, you've gained absolutely zero victory points from their inclusion, and I still get the +2 cards on use AND clogging up your hand with more useless cards.

- Eddie

fugu13
10-18-2010, 02:18 PM
I will happily play a chapel deck vs someone playing with witches any day of the week. Occasionally drawing a curse is hardly even a set back in a chapel deck, because the 'worst' it usually means is buying a gold instead of a province.

Similarly, I will happily play a remodel deck against someone playing with witches any day of the week. The remodel deck just needs a remodel and a card that can be remodeled reasonably in hand to move forward. Having a few curses around is not a big deal, and they can be remodeled themselves as the need arises.

Both of those are counters that are right there in the basic set. While the +2 cards from the witch is nice, it isn't all that great, either. Between being expensive (I'd much rather have a mine, early game, for instance) and being a terminal action with relatively little direct benefit, buying a witch is often significantly worse than buying an alternative card, especially if one already has one witch.

If there weren't either of those counters in the available set, there's a decent chance I'd at some point get a single witch myself when it wouldn't clog things up. That makes it a good example of a card that is occasionally useful in a varied deck, not a power house card that one should buy over and over again when one has five money.

tungwene
10-18-2010, 02:37 PM
The strength of the Witch is two fold. The first is the whole 'draw two cards' part, which keeps it relevent most of the game. The second part is clogging up your opponent's deck; people keep talking about how 'curses aren't so bad if you can trash them' but it doesn't matter if you're trashing them. The negative victory points are the secondary effect of curses; the main effect is to clog up your opponents' deck with worthless cards.

Put another way, if you're Chapelling a Curse card away I've still come out on top.Witch is not so great an action card by itself since there are both cards in the base set that let you draw more cards and cards that let you draw cards and play another action. If given a choice between Witch and Laboratory I go for Laboratory 100% of the time. Since Witch doesn't self-combo during the late game you're going to have many turns where all you can do is play a Witch on you turn and not be able to do anything with the Villages and Witches you draw nor have any money to buy anything with while your opponents are buying Provinces that you just made worth 5 VP instead of 6.

I am also positive someone playing a fully Chapel strategy will be running circles with a few Provinces under their belt around your Witch strategy before you have it fully up and running.

Put another way, you only need one Chapel card (costing 2) to counter a handful of curses. You need several Witch cards (costing 5) and throw in a few Villages to be able to be making them draw up hands full of curses. Even throwing in Throne Room into the mix you are likely dealing with an opponent who throw away your curses faster than you can give them to him and he'll have better cards than you because he wasn't buying up Witches, Villages, or Throne Rooms. This is something I've seen happen in many Attack based strategies where one person focuses on attack based cards (it doesn't matter what attack cards, even ones that combo nicely like Spy and Saboteur) that by the time they have the cards to do significant damage to their opponents they've been left so far behind it's impossible to catch up.

spineshark
10-19-2010, 05:04 AM
it doesn't matter if you're trashing them. The negative victory points are the secondary effect of curses; the main effect is to clog up your opponents' deck with worthless cards.
Um, this is a misunderstanding of 'trash.' If you trash a card you won't/can't draw it anymore.

Islands are also sort of a ghetto Trash, although they're obviously best with green cards. Still, there's something funny about finishing a game with a set of Cursed Islands like I did once.

I really can't think of a singularly broken card in the game, aside from Pirate Ship I guess. Even some of the other cards I've thought were REALLY good like Hoard can be shut down surprisingly well. The only other cards I really hate are the ones that can randomly completely screw people (Saboteur, mostly) or drag things out forever just by existing (Golem, Possession, etc.)

Eddie
10-19-2010, 05:45 AM
Um, this is a misunderstanding of 'trash.' If you trash a card you won't/can't draw it anymore.

Yes, but you still need to draw the Curse with the Chapel to trash it, and that's still a Silver, Gold, or other card you could have drawn instead. I mean, I love Chapel and everything, but the best time to have Chapel in your deck is when there is absolutely nothing you'd want to trash with it (because then you know your deck is gas). Put another way, would you rather draw:

Gold, Silver, Silver, Chapel, Curse

or

Gold, Silver, Silver, Chapel, anythingelse that could get you one treasure/

Someone mentioned earlier how they would just 'shrug' and buy a Gold, but anytime my curses potentially prevent you from buying a Province is a huge pickup for Team Me.

- Eddie

fugu13
10-19-2010, 09:16 AM
Yes, but in exchange you spent a turn playing a Witch as a terminal action instead of something better (say, a Smithy). Every time that happens, the Chapel player is also gaining a small advantage (and a Gold is not really much of a downside vs a Province, especially as that decreases the possibility of hands with so much silver in the first place in such a small deck).

That's one reason they put Mountebank in Prosperity, I think. It is a fairly effective attack in general, but against trashing decks it is brutal, because repeated Mountebanks makes it much, much harder to keep card parity (the trashing deck player has to choose between trashing that curse in his hand and getting two fairly useless cards, or having to forgo trashing the curse that turn).

Eddie
10-19-2010, 09:55 AM
I thikn we'll have to agree to disagree on the Witch, I'll do some testing this week when I have time and we'll see what the results are. SCIENCE!

- Eddie

tungwene
10-19-2010, 01:21 PM
Played a couple games with Witch and Seahag yesterday. Both cards lost their teeth when our pile of curses ran out mid game and the most curses anyone had in their deck at the end, after trashes and remodels was 3. In fact in one game I was Swindling 5 pointers into Witches in order to clog up people's decks with less useful cards.

Luana
10-19-2010, 02:54 PM
Okay, so I had widdershins make sure our old TeamSpeak server was running, so yeah, if we end up organizing a game night and want some real, honest-to-goodness trash talk, PM me and I'll send along the info.

Also, Witch is a jerk card and I will not play with it at all.

Destil
10-19-2010, 03:27 PM
I've won games with a primary strategy of 2-3 witches, but it's really dependent on it being a game with 3+ players and you being the only one rocking curses, otherwise they just run out to fast.

Mostly, though, I just enjoy calling out "It's a witch!" in my best (worst) Monty Python voice when I play it (or "More witches!" with village or Kings Court).

shivam
10-19-2010, 06:01 PM
Someone implemented this online, with all the expansions, solitaire and normal multiplayer, and apparently the blessing of the game's designer: http://dominion.isotropic.org/

Prepare to lose hours on a game that moves twice as fast due to the lack of shuffling time.

anyone up for a game?

spineshark
10-20-2010, 08:43 PM
Luana and I were talking last night, and we came up with the idea for a Harry Potter-inspired setup for a bit of amusement. I dunno what she's thought of, but here's the list I came up with (from "most fitting" to "sorta iffy"):
Philosopher's Stone
Secret Chamber
Witch
Scrying Pool
Feast
Pearl Diver
Library
Vault
Apprentice
Contraband
(Potion)

Luana
10-21-2010, 01:52 AM
Luana and I were talking last night, and we came up with the idea for a Harry Potter-inspired setup for a bit of amusement. I dunno what she's thought of, but here's the list I came up with (from "most fitting" to "sorta iffy"):
Philosopher's Stone
Secret Chamber
Witch
Scrying Pool
Feast
Pearl Diver
Library
Vault
Apprentice
Contraband
(Potion)

Without thinking of card costs or strategies or anything and just going by the names of them all, I would nominate Apothecary and/or Alchemist, Haven, Tribute, and Minion and/or Saboteur. Maybe even Goons.

Possession would be a great fit, but even though I was able to craft a pretty Possession-safe deck once, I still think it's an incredibly cheap card.

spineshark
10-27-2010, 12:34 AM
I'm about 99% sure I lost this game (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201010/26/game-20101026-232358-9790ff47.html.gz) because I got confused between Ambassador and Bureaucrat at the beginning and replaced the latter with Nothing instead of a Moat. I still can't stop laughing at the fact that it was even that close though, I thought I was just messing around with an inviable small deck build (though, not having some way to get rid of the Ambassador would've hurt if it had lasted any longer).

fugu13
10-27-2010, 11:29 AM
Wow, nobody else bought ambassador (well, one guy, but then it got trashed and he didn't replace it) when that was the only way to get rid of cards of your own volition (plus being the best attack card of the options available)?

spineshark
10-27-2010, 02:06 PM
I didn't say it was a great game! Just that I think I threw it away with a silly mistake (and buying a Wharf would've also helped...)

fugu13
10-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Oh, I wasn't saying it was a bad game, I was just remarking on how different the play style was from how I would play.

Destil
10-28-2010, 03:28 PM
Man, treasure map + chapel is crazy stupid good.

Stiv
10-28-2010, 05:12 PM
Man, treasure map + chapel is crazy stupid good.

Also very good with Pearl Diver and Wishing Well. But with Chapel you can literally throw away all your starting cards but for treasure maps and you're set for the game.

spineshark
11-01-2010, 05:13 AM
This game gets more fun for me the more I play, because there's always new things to try, even if they won't win me games, like Kings Court + Embargo. Had a couple trash-heavy games this morning (including one with Bishop where I landed 47 VP tokens), but my favorite was this one (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201011/01/game-20101101-025345-74c0fa1b.html.gz), in which I purposefully hoarded everything I could get my hands on despite having access to Forge and Salvager.

I'm also wondering how to beat Stash. I abused it in a 2P game earlier tonight and won by one point (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201011/01/game-20101101-031824-d69d0da3.html.gz) (because the other player trashed one of their starting Estates), but I had to contend with Militia and getting only $2 in my hand three times early in the game. Without a forced discard attack, what does 4xStash lose to?

widdershins
11-01-2010, 10:28 PM
Kings Court + Embargo.

Yeah, Luana was making me hate life with that. She ended up ambassadoring me a province out of pure hubris, and I tried to pay her back by buying cursed dutchies so I could ambassador her some curses, but I ran out of time.

She beat me by 1 point... (which marked 4 one on one games in a row that were decided by 1VP. Then she had to go and annihilate me in the next game, breaking a perfectly good streak.)

Luana
11-02-2010, 04:45 PM
Hey, I want to do a small Dominion bracket sometime! The Board Game Geek one looks fun, but I don't care about beating them. I care about beating you.

I figure if there's enough interest, I can throw together some things and we can make it last... oh, for a week? I'll even send a small tchotchke to the winner, because I feel creative and why not? (you all only get one prize, though -- if the same dude wins a billion times in a row, they're not getting something new from me every time.)

shivam
11-02-2010, 04:47 PM
fine, i'll do it, representing the haterade faction =)

Destil
11-02-2010, 05:23 PM
I'm down if Pirate Ship is verboden.

Luana
11-02-2010, 05:26 PM
Okay, dudes, this deserves its own thread, so I'm going to start one with signups and such. Whee!

Destil
11-04-2010, 12:25 AM
Three way tie! (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201011/04/game-20101104-002431-87c9f944.html.gz)

Luana
11-04-2010, 01:20 AM
I guess this is where I'll put my warnings against stupid douchebags!

I beat this guy when he tried to end the game quickly with a fierce Warehouse/University/Feast combo, where he basically tried to Feast away all the Duchies. Unfortunately for him, I had amassed a fair amount of money and not only got a bunch of Provinces, but the last Duchy and Feast before he could take them (and therefore the game). Bought a few Estates, and walked away the winner at 27-24.

Of course, the internet is full of dicks:


1:14 Ijustgotcheated.: i just got cheated again.
1:14 Luana: not really!
1:15 Luana: you just lost, that's all.
1:15 Ijustgotcheated.: no, i got cheated
1:15 Luana: whatever, sore loser.
1:15 Ijustgotcheated.: by a stupid cunt.


I logged right after I typed my last statement, so the nasty showed up when I got back to the lobby. What a douchebag.

gahitsu
11-04-2010, 01:37 AM
I guess this is where I'll put my warnings against stupid douchebags!

I beat this guy when he tried to end the game quickly with a fierce Warehouse/University/Feast combo, where he basically tried to Feast away all the Duchies. Unfortunately for him, I had amassed a fair amount of money and not only got a bunch of Provinces, but the last Duchy and Feast before he could take them (and therefore the game). Bought a few Estates, and walked away the winner at 27-24.

Of course, the internet is full of dicks:



I logged right after I typed my last statement, so the nasty showed up when I got back to the lobby. What a douchebag.

Loooord, that's special. What was his original username?

Destil
11-08-2010, 12:15 AM
Finally made coppersmith work! (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201011/08/game-20101108-001436-6f2d7db0.html.gz)

tungwene
11-11-2010, 01:57 AM
fugu and I played a game (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/14839182/poorfugu.html) tonight where I more than doubled his VP with some crazy, King's Court, Goons, and Council Room combos.

fugu13
11-11-2010, 08:12 AM
Of course, we played a game later where I nearly quadrupled your total ;) . But that was through more boring play.

Luana
11-11-2010, 09:23 AM
I unintentionally made my first dick move (http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201011/11/game-20101111-091549-d3a8457a.html.gz) in online Dominion today (not counting when I ended the game early and spine and I tied to beat Stiv).

At this point in the game, I had been the only one of us who'd been able to buy Colonies.

--- Luana's turn 32 ---
Luana plays a Laboratory.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Luana plays an Apprentice.
... trashing a Colony.
... drawing 11 cards.
Luana plays a Laboratory.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Luana plays a Laboratory.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Luana plays a Throne Room.
... and plays an Apprentice.
... ... trashing a Curse.
... and plays the Apprentice again.
... ... trashing a Copper.
Luana plays a Laboratory.
... (Luana reshuffles.)
... drawing 2 cards and getting +1 action.
Luana plays a City.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions, +1 buy, and +$1.
Luana plays a City.
... drawing 2 cards and getting +2 actions, +1 buy, and +$1.
Luana plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... tafkal discards 2 cards.
Luana plays a Goons.
... getting +1 buy and +$2.
... tafkal only has 3 cards.
Luana plays a Platinum, 2 Quarries, 2 Silvers, and 5 Coppers.
Luana plays a Bank.
... which is worth +$11.
Luana plays a Bank.
... which is worth +$12.
Luana buys a Colony.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Luana buys a Colony.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Luana buys a Colony.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
Luana buys a Colony.
... getting +1 ▼.
... getting +1 ▼.
(Luana draws: a Platinum, a Throne Room, a Laboratory, a Gold, and a Copper.)


So there was only one Colony left, right? Dude responded with "?", which I followed up with "I just wanted to end the game quickly". He then said "you just needed to buy a labratory to win" and then lo and behold, I realized that we were out of both Curses and Cities and there was only one Laboratory left. I felt like such a tool.

No hard feelings, though, and I ended up buying the last Colony during my following turn to end it, but not before he did a similar thing and bought a ton of Dukes and Duchies.

spineshark
11-11-2010, 02:28 PM
(not counting when I ended the game early and spine and I tied to beat Stiv)
If you'd let him buy that, the game would've had one winner instead of two. I don't see the problem!

John
11-16-2010, 09:57 AM
If any of you have Android based phones, there is a new free single player Dominion app in the market called Androminion. It's pretty sparse, all text but it gets the job done. I've only played a few real games in my life, and got slaughtered by the two AI characters. The game includes all cards from the original, Seaside and Intrigue.

tungwene
12-04-2010, 01:01 AM
Played a four player game of all intrigue cards tonight that ended when the last player to go played Swindler and hit two people with Provinces except there weren't enough Provinces left to replace them both and we had to look up the rules because this had never happened to us before. Turns out, since there was only one Province left in the stack, the first person going around in order got to trash and gain a Province and the other had to trash his Province and GAINED NOTHING IN RETURN. It was absolutely brutal.

MrBlarney
12-21-2010, 11:54 PM
So, apparently, Dominion@isotropic (http://dominion.isotropic.org) now has leaderboards (http://dominion.isotropic.org/leaderboard/) for logged in players using the TrueSkill rating system (as seen on XBox Live). Having learned this, I decided to play some random matches (including a couple against Luana) and proceeded to lose quite a bit. Good times, good times.

tungwene
03-17-2011, 01:58 AM
Played a game with Mint, Steward, and Treasure Map. At one point I had two Treasure Maps in my deck and managed to trash my deck down to five cards so I had a 100% chance of drawing both my Treasure Maps on my next turn. Needless to say, I won that game though fugu was at a severe disadvantage because one of his Treasure Maps had fallen onto the floor and he didn't notice it until well into the game.

Luana
03-21-2011, 02:49 PM
So, about that new expansion (http://riograndegames.com/games.html?id=383)! I wish I knew what was up with the whole "variety" thing... will they require a hand reveal to show that you have all different cards? This could be interesting, but obviously I'll wait until it shows up on isotropic to find out. :D

I've got a group of guys that meet up for board games and I think I have to pick up my own copy of the base (duh), Seaside, and Intrigue (maybe Prosperity as well) so we can play it. One of the guys is like "I've never lost a game on BSW" and I was like "that's because all the cool kids play on isotropic". I can't wait to wipe the floor with that cocky SOB, heh.

fugu13
03-21-2011, 03:58 PM
Yeah, I'm particularly interested in the "unique" cards (which presumably means there's only one of each in the entire game, instead of 10 or 12 or more).

Destil
03-21-2011, 04:31 PM
May also be that you're only allowed one in your deck? Yeah, this looks pretty cool.

And I'd go for prosperity before seaside or inteigue. I love how plat and colonies can change up the game. But that's just me.

gahitsu
04-22-2011, 08:59 PM
HEY HEY YOU GUYS CORNUCOPIA'S ON ISOTROPIC NOW LET'S PLAY SOME DOMINION WITH GAHITSU ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

Luana
04-22-2011, 09:30 PM
HEY HEY YOU GUYS CORNUCOPIA'S ON ISOTROPIC NOW LET'S PLAY SOME DOMINION WITH GAHITSU ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

I AM THERE

WELL, I WILL BE

spineshark
04-23-2011, 01:18 AM
Played a few with Luana! Definitely going to need some more games to see how it all goes, but it seems really fun so far. Not quite as brutal as Prosperity (ugh Mountebank and Goons), and less overwrought than Alchemy. Jester is fucking crazy though. It's like a crazy combination of Ambassador and Thief that also gives you $2. Coolest $5 ever.

Lakupo
05-10-2011, 09:26 AM
I have just discovered isotropic and it's addddddddictive

gahitsu
06-04-2011, 08:21 PM
I have just discovered isotropic and it's addddddddictive

Are you Lakupo on Isotropic? I'm on there a LOT (1388 games played as of today, lol), and I cycle between the name gahitsu, ysandreh, kvothe and Terezi. Say hi if you see me!

Jester, Tournament and Hamlet are the real winners of the expansion, though, the RNG of getting Tournie out and getting Followers quickly is akin to the King's Court race - it feels amazing if you're on the winning side of it, a little fff if you're on the bad shuffle end.

Not that skill doesn't play a big part in getting those up and out and utilizing them early, just, like many good cards, shuffles do play a big part in it.

Googleshng
06-05-2011, 02:04 AM
Oh hey, a game I'm interested in/considering picking up? Played by cool weirdos I kinda know online who'd probably put up with me having no clue how to play it in a teaching game? I'll have to remember to look into this tomorrow some time!

gahitsu
06-05-2011, 03:06 AM
Oh hey, a game I'm interested in/considering picking up? Played by cool weirdos I kinda know online who'd probably put up with me having no clue how to play it in a teaching game? I'll have to remember to look into this tomorrow some time!

IF it's at all possible - and I know it's a big if, as not everyone is snuggled nicely in a huge metropolis bursting with an active nerd community - but, if you can, you'd want to learn face to face with someone.

I've taught a couple of RL buddies how to play and it takes, oh, one, two minutes, tops, with one or two questions once they jump into it. I've also taught a couple of people how to play using the Dominion interface - which then takes about 20 or 30 minutes, and there's usually a level of frustration involved with it.

The card game is simple and it'd be easy to pick up. Learning the card game simultaneously with the UI of the online system - which isn't the most polished, as it's pretty much a homebrew labor of love - is, uh, a little more difficult.

Not impossible! Just saying, if you have a choice between the two ...

Googleshng
06-06-2011, 10:24 PM
Well, if I knew people who were at all local and had the game, I'd already have played it and formed a strong opinion... come to think of it... I don't generally know people with game playing time who are local period these days. I should probably keep that in mind when considering game purchases.

gahitsu
10-15-2011, 08:37 AM
YOU GUYS.

Only six of its cards have been revealed and Hinterlands is already my favorite expansion. There are SO MANY FUCKING COOL THINGS you can do with these cards, without making those cards broken or diminishing the value of older cards - in fact, old, icky cards are starting to get new value.

And I love that it shakes up tried-and-true Dominion strategy that pretty much always applied, no matter what your spread. YOU GOTTA TRASH YOUR STARTING ESTATES AS SOON AS POSSIBLE hahaha maybe not!

Such a wonderful Jimmy-themed deck. :3~

CaptBlasto
01-30-2013, 01:14 PM
Does anybody here still play on isotropic? If so, I am TableMilk on there. I'd be glad to play some games with people.

Also, I own the Base set and Intrigue. Does anyone have a set to recommend as the next expansion to buy? I am sort of leaning towards Dark Ages only because I haven't even played with any of those cards due to Isotropic not releasing them, but also thinking Prosperity for the VP tokens and Colonies and such.

sraymonds
01-30-2013, 01:21 PM
Dominion in your web browser! (http://www.goko.com/games/Dominion)

SOMEONE PLAY WITH ME

pence
01-30-2013, 01:35 PM
I haven't played with the Dark Ages cards much, but I'd get Prosperity first if you don't have a regular group already. Spending 22 monies on one turn is more immediately fun than finding ways to trash things. Then, you can bring out Dark Ages once they're hooked.

Red Hedgehog
01-30-2013, 01:37 PM
Does anybody here still play on isotropic? If so, I am TableMilk on there. I'd be glad to play some games with people.

Also, I own the Base set and Intrigue. Does anyone have a set to recommend as the next expansion to buy? I am sort of leaning towards Dark Ages only because I haven't even played with any of those cards due to Isotropic not releasing them, but also thinking Prosperity for the VP tokens and Colonies and such.

I occasionally still play on there with friends.

Seaside is my favorite expansion that I've played with, though I haven't yet played Dark Ages and only once with Hinterlands. The designer also recommends Seaside (http://dominionstrategy.com/2012/12/21/interview-with-donald-x-vaccarino-part-ii-dominion/).

Umby
01-30-2013, 02:49 PM
If you're cheap, like me, and already own all the expansions in person, I'd go with dominion.isotropic.org . I'll play with anyone, just let me know! I'm Umby, as usual. I'll try to find you all if I'm on there!

Red Hedgehog
01-30-2013, 08:04 PM
Dominion in your web browser! (http://www.goko.com/games/Dominion)

SOMEONE PLAY WITH ME

Oh, hey, I hadn't realized this was officially out already. I was on the closed beta for the version played over google+ hangouts. It's very well done.