PDA

View Full Version : Mafia 8: Mafia vs Capcom


Pages : [1] 2 3 4

Merus
11-28-2010, 02:13 AM
MAFIA vs. CAPCOM

Your favourite Capcom characters getting gunned down by the most ruthless mobsters of stage and screen! Who will survive? Will anyone?

Mafia vs. Capcom features two teams, the Silver Screen Mafia and the Capcom Universe, and one player out for themselves, the Secret Boss. The Capcom Universe wins when they are the only ones left standing; the Mafia wins when nothing can prevent their dominance; and the Secret Boss wins when neither team can prevent their dominance.

Each player is assigned a character, as well as an appropriate role. These pieces of information are considered separate; for instance, a player may be assigned Dan Hibiki from Street Fighter (which is their character), the Capcom Aspirer (their faction and role). Roles are not arbitrarily assigned; it is possible to derive a player's likely role from their character.

Some Capcom characters may have joined the Silver Screen Mafia; some mafia characters may be working with the Capcom Universe.

Players may leave a game via one of three ways: lynches, performed by the players during the day, contracts, performed by the Silver Screen Mafia during the night, and K.O.s, performed by characters based on the conditions of their role. Players are told which players have left the game, and if a player is lynched, they will learn what character that player was assigned.

The game begins in Day. During the day phase, no players may communicate with one another about the game except in this thread. No private messages, no IM, no talking about it in real life or IRC, nothing but this thread. Discussion in this thread, however, is permitted at any time during the day phase. Editing your posts is forbidden, so everything you say will be a matter of public record.

There will be one lynching each day--no day phase may pass without one. If a majority of players all accuse the same person at the end of the 72 hour day, that person is lynched and ejected from the game, unless they have a special role that prevents this. Depending on the lynched player's role, the last person to vote for them may also be affected by the lynch. If there is no majority vote by the end of the day, the player with the most accusations will be lynched, again depending on their role. In the case of a tie: if one player has protection from stalemates, the other will be lynched; otherwise ties will be broken at random. If the players decide en masse to accuse no one, the GM will randomly choose a player from the Capcom Universe to be lynched whose role does not prevent them from stalemates.

To make accusations clear, please use the following phrase, bolded:

I accuse (Alpha Werewolf).

Accusations are not set in stone once made, and may be changed at any time. Newer accusations supersede older ones.

If a majority of players accuse the same player for 24 hours, the day will end early and that player will be lynched.

The players will learn the character of the lynched player, but not their faction or role, if they had one.

After a lynch, the game proceeds to night, which lasts 48 hours. In the night phase, it is still against the rules for most players to communicate about the game outside of this thread. Additionally, posting in this thread about the game is forbidden at night unless otherwise allowed. The Mafia are allowed to converse in a special private thread, in order to plan, as well as decide who to place a contract on that night.

There is one notable deviation from the usual ruleset: the Silver Screen Mafia operate on a tag-team basis during contracts. When they nominate one player to kill, they must also nominate which of their number will fulfil the contract; that player is considered in play. Several roles, including most of the mafia roles, depend on who is in play. This does not affect the mafia's ability to discuss their actions, to use abilities that do not mention being in play as a requirement, nor does it affect any daytime actions.

The following roles may be in play:

SILVER SCREEN MAFIA (3 Mafia)
All Silver Screen Mafia will have access to a method of communication during the night.

The Godfather shows up as being on the Capcom team when investigated. When the Mafia are undecided at the end of night, the Godfather's preference for the kill takes precedence.
The Saboteur can nominate one player per night, as long as the Saboteur is not in play. That player's actions that night will be sabotaged, and they will act as a Regular for that night. However, they will discover the character that sabotaged them, and police will be called to prevent three consecutive acts of sabotage on any one player.
The Launderer will receive Z5,000 every night they are in play. They may, once per night, direct their Zenny into one of the following fronts:

Legitimate Private Investigations: An investment of Z2,500 will uncover the role of one player. For instance, if the Launderer order himself investigated, he will receive a fortune cookie containing the word "Launderer".
Montana Security: An investment of Z7,500 will buy one nominated player protection from any K.Os (but not lynches) for one night and day.
The Out-of-Towners: An investment of Z15,000 will prevent all night actions for that night, other than your team's. All players will be notified in the game thread that the Out-of-Towners have been called.

The Fighter will fill their combo meter by 1/3 every night they are in play. When the combo meter is full, they may perform an Ultra Move, causing a K.O. on any player they nominate. The Ultra Move may be performed at any time, even during the day.

The Mafia win when nothing can prevent their victory.

THE SECRET BOSS (1 Secret Boss)
The Secret Boss may nominate one player to K.O. every night.
Any investigation on the Secret Boss on nights the Secret Boss does not attempt a K.O. will return that the Secret Boss is on the Capcom faction as a Regular, and as a specific character from a Capcom game. (The Secret Boss will be told which character they will appear to be.) The Secret Boss also has protection from stalemates.

The Secret Boss wins when nothing can prevent their victory.

CAPCOM UNIVERSE (12 Capcom)
The Fighter has Immunity: they are immune to K.O.s, hits and stalemates. They may give up Immunity to attempt a Climactic K.O. on a player they nominate. Once two nights have passed since attempting the K.O., their Immunity will return.
The Tracker may, once a night, set up a camera. That night, the Tracker will be notified of any actions taken by that player during the night. The camera will only last for that night. The Tracker may give up their Camera powers to start a Full-Scale Investigation. If you do this, you will be notified of every night action that takes place that night, but not who was involved. (If two or more players perform the same action, you will only learn that multiple players performed the action, but not a number.) Once two nights have passed, your cameras will become available.
The Avenger will K.O. the player that K.O.s them, will K.O. the mafia player in play if night killed, and if lynched, will K.O. the last person to vote for them. The Avenger has protection from stalemates. The Avenger's character and role will be made public when they die.
The Lovers may communicate privately amongst themselves. There will always be either two or no Lovers. If one Lover dies, the other Lover will become either a Grieving Inspector or a Grieving Socialite (which they become is determined at the start of the game).
The Grieving Inspector may, each night phase, investigate a player, finding out their faction. (For instance, if you investigate yourself, you will discover that you are "Capcom".)
The Grieving Socialite may, each night phase, investigate a player, finding out their character. (For instance, if you investigate the Aspirer, you will receive the result "Dan Hibiki".)
The Lawyer may, each night phase, nominate a player for Police Protection. That player will be immune to night hits and K.O.s for that night. In addition, during the day, the Lawyer may give up their Protection ability to raise an Objection: the player with the most votes will be cross-examined, revealing their faction. Doing so will reset the votes and extend the day phase by 48 hours. Once three nights have passed, their Police Protection ability will return.
The Aspirer may, once per night, nominate a player.

All other players are Regulars; they have no special powers, but may have protection from stalemates.

Capcom Universe players that may give up one power to use another must be able to use the power they are giving up; for instance, the Fighter may not use their Climactic K.O. if they do not have Immunity.

The Capcom Universe wins when all anti-Capcom players have been eliminated.

The following players are in the game:
Adam
botticus
Byron
dwolfe
Javex
JohnB
kaisel
Karzac
Loki
Luana
namelessentity
Paul le Fou
SDMX
shivam
spineshark
Umby

Merus
11-28-2010, 02:16 AM
Fire danced across the sky, casting a soft, orange light over the world. The stars above seemed to bend and shift behind the fire; it was the Crossover Conflagration, and it heralded a special, and dangerous, time, when two universes would collide. No-one knew what would happen, but it would no doubt be exciting, life-changing, spect--

Blanka yawned. "Another crossover? How long since last one?"
His companion, still in his Alpha Werewolf costume, announced, "Only a year, I believe, unless there's been one since those superhero guys in jumpsuits and helmets."
Blanka looked forward. "Don't know that one. Wasn't there."
'Alpha Werewolf' shrugged. "Well, nevermind. No-one knows what's on the other side, yet. We might get lucky! It might be the Bikini Girl Planet vs Capcom."
Blanka put his costume back on, morphing back into Brickroad. "Chun-Li not like that. She not like ob-- objek-- bikini girls."

Kattelox Island was holding its annual masquerade, and as had become tradition, the masquerade featured full-body, holographic disguises. All that was needed was to put on the mask (anywhere would do) and your costume would appear around you. Dizzy was deep in conversation with Nodal, and SDMX was raiding the punchbowl. The night was going wonderfully, and the fire in the sky was casting a very inviting light over proceedings. It was hard to see how anything could go wrong.

"Ladies and gentleman, thank you for attending the Kattelox Masquerade," a strange voice announced over the PA system. "We regret to announce that the fundraising segment of the event is about to begin. If you would kindly place all of your Zenny on the floor, our associates will come by and claim it. Thank you for your cooperation."
No-one moved.
The voice came back over the PA system. "Ah, yes. If you do not comply, we will shoot one attendee, every round, until we have your cooperation. Thank you." The servbot waiters panicked, dropping their trays and running to huddle in the corner. The masqueraders collapsed into small circles, discussing how to take the threat over the PA system. No-one made any move to empty out their coin pouches, wallets, or inventory onto the floor. Eventually, the voice on the PA system came back. "Ladies and gentlemen, your lack of co-operation is most distressing. Please take this as a sign of our displeasure."

Merus was killed by... some kind of bullet, it looks like. He was The Judge (from Phoenix Wright).

"Where did that bullet come from?!" kaisel yelled. Everyone drew back, and started looking at each other.
"Yes, ladies and gentlemen, we are serious. We are the Mafia, and we expect your cooperation. We are among you, and we will not tolerate your disrespect. Money, on the floor, please, or next round we will kill another of your number."
The masqueraders responded, forcefully. "Everyone, take off your masks!" "Let's shut down the Masquerade Engine! They can't hide if it's not generating the costumes!" "I NOT DUMPING MONEY! I NEED PAY FOR TAXI!"
The PA system crackled to life again. "Ladies, gentlemen, be reasonable. We are in control of the Masquerade Engine, and we will be sure to shoot anyone who attempts to unmask. You only have one choice. I regret to have to resort to this tactic again, but..."
One of the masqueraders grabbed Paul le Fou, and held a gun to his head. "Do what the boss says," Alpha Werewolf demanded. Unfortunately, the boss hadn't counted on the other masqueraders drawing their weapons. Alpha Werewolf tried to squeeze the trigger, but within a blink of an eye he was on the floor, bleeding to death.
"Not how I'd thought this'd go..." Alpha Werewolf coughed, as his mask broke, revealing his true identity.

Alpha Werewolf has been lynched. He was Tom Hagen (from The Godfather).

"That guy looks weird," spineshark said. "Is he from the crossover? Are we dealing with... real people?"

Meanwhile, in a dark corner, the Mafia were quickly convening. "We don't have the numbers to deal with a dozen people with weapons," the boss was saying.
"So what do we do?"
"We play it cool. Let's move in, and mingle around. Let's encourage them to rebel, and when they're not watching, bam! Eventually, they'll get the hint."

On the other side of the room, a few masqueraders were also convening. "That shot had to come from inside this room. They wouldn't have taken over the Masquerade Engine if they didn't need it. They're hiding in here, and they need to stay hidden."
"So what do we do?"
"We play it cool. We'll flush them out slowly, one by one. They'll come after the most threatening of us, but if they don't know who that is, we'll be fine. Eventually, they'll have nowhere to hide."

Somewhere on the floor, one masquerader was smiling to himself. This was the perfect opportunity. Everyone was scared, and threatened, and ready to tear themselves apart. So what would he do? He'd help them along.

Round One
FIGHT!!

JohnB
11-28-2010, 06:44 AM
Jesus Christ. It looks like we're in quite a situation here.

botticus
11-28-2010, 07:16 AM
I told you guys that a holographic masquerade ball during a Crossover Conflagration was not such a swell idea. And I don't even have any Zenny on me!

Kylie
11-28-2010, 09:39 AM
But if I give up all my Zenny, how will I get my ride back from the valets? This is unacceptable!

Umby
11-28-2010, 09:55 AM
Indeed. It seems that we have lost the only thing that was sane around here, our judge. Now we must be judges for ourselves, and you know how terrible that always seems to turn out to be.

How can we protect ourselves from those ruffians?

Luana
11-28-2010, 10:42 AM
To be fair, The Judge isn't really too bright of a man, so I wouldn't have expected that much help. Shame to lose an extra set of hands for fighting, though.

Also, I wish I'd picked a better disguise. I look so... plain.

kaisel
11-28-2010, 10:59 AM
Hrm, while it's always a shame to be down a person, the Judge's death is probably for the best in this situation. He'd clearly want to set everything up like a court of law, with him presiding, where we'd have to find contradictions and evidence, lest we somehow be penalized and thrown out of court...

shivam
11-28-2010, 11:15 AM
Shivam cracks his knuckles, and pops his neck as he walks forward into the arena.

Alright, boys and girls, let's get ready to rumble!

First things first, as a courtesy notice--SDMX is still out of town on holiday, and will probably be back tonight.

Also, a rules question, since this is the first game that i've actually read them-- The saboteur role description up there has an unclear pronoun. He can block someone as long as 'they' are not in play. as long as who isn't in play? the saboteur or the target?

And what exactly is the difference between a KO, a Hit and a Lynch? My reading is that hits are the standard night kill, lynches are standard day kills, and KOs are special lone wolf type kills?

So fighters can't be offed in the night but can be lynched? And what happens if the fighter and avenger are in a vote off for lynch?

Alpha Werewolf
11-28-2010, 11:24 AM
*BZZT*... DEAD MAFIA PLAYER FOUND

REBOOT AS MODERATOR

*BZZZZZZZZZT*
Also, a rules question, since this is the first game that i've actually read them-- The saboteur role description up there has an unclear pronoun. He can block someone as long as 'they' are not in play. as long as who isn't in play? the saboteur or the target?
The Saboteur can only block people if the Saboteur himself is not in play.

And what exactly is the difference between a KO, a Hit and a Lynch? My reading is that hits are the standard night kill, lynches are standard day kills, and KOs are special lone wolf type kills?
A Hit is the mafia's nightly nightkill.
A Lynch is the lynch that is voted on daily.
A K.O. is any kill which is not one of the above.

So fighters can't be offed in the night but can be lynched? And what happens if the fighter and avenger are in a vote off for lynch?
The Capcom Universe (Townie) Fighter has an immunity to K.O-type and Hit-type kills (as well as protection from stalemates), unless they give it up with their other ability.
The Avenger's ability is a K.O-type kill, and therefore will not work on the Fighter if the Fighter's Immunity has been active since the previous night (this case includes day 1).

shivam
11-28-2010, 11:31 AM
but what about a stalemate situation between the fighter and avenger, who are both immune to stalemates?

Alpha Werewolf
11-28-2010, 11:34 AM
In the case of a tie: if one player has protection from stalemates, the other will be lynched; otherwise ties will be broken at random.

shivam
11-28-2010, 11:39 AM
ok, thank you!

shivam
11-28-2010, 11:54 AM
also, just to confirm, the day ends at 2 am pacific time?

Adam
11-28-2010, 12:42 PM
Looks like we'll just have to take justice into our own hands. Let's worry about the Zenny after we've taken out these Mafia creeps, Byron.

Karzac
11-28-2010, 01:31 PM
No way am I giving up my hard earned Zenny to a bunch of no-goodniks. I'll kill every one of them before giving up a dime.

namelessentity
11-28-2010, 03:54 PM
It's weird, I think in every game I've played we went after Alpha first, and in the one game he is a mafia character, he is killed in the prologue. It's going to be weird not trying to get Alpha lynched.

Merus
11-28-2010, 05:27 PM
also, just to confirm, the day ends at 2 am pacific time?
The game started a little later than we intended. I might cheat and make this day a little short to bring it back to a time where both GMs can participate. You'll have plenty of warning if this is the case.

Javex
11-28-2010, 06:08 PM
But if I give up all my Zenny, how will I get my ride back from the valets? This is unacceptable!

If it helps, I personally...

WANNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIDE.

*music*

...look, I'm just trying to break the tension.

dwolfe
11-28-2010, 06:09 PM
Everyone, I have an important, pressing issue to bring up.

As you all know, last year's Crossover Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPjjnfGKrPc) didn't go over so well. It turns out the poor singer's holographic costume got stuck on loop. But no one was rude enough to ask, so we had to endure the same ten seconds all night.

So...what in the world is this year's Crossover Theme Song?!

JohnB
11-28-2010, 06:46 PM
It should clearly be "The Final Countdown," by Europe.

Kylie
11-28-2010, 07:41 PM
Javex, I want to say thank you. I was almost afraid everybody was going to let that opportunity ride. It's a shame I'm probably going to try to kill you later.

Javex
11-28-2010, 07:54 PM
No hard feelings. The sad truth is, you'll probably suceed, seeing as how you've got a (mostly-deserved) reputation as MAFIA GOD.

But until then, there's always an Umby to kill.

botticus
11-28-2010, 08:36 PM
It's weird, I think in every game I've played we went after Alpha first, and in the one game he is a mafia character, he is killed in the prologue. It's going to be weird not trying to get Alpha lynched.
Clearly Paul le Fou must pay for being at the root of this issue. It was probably a charade anyway!

Javex
11-28-2010, 11:29 PM
Look, I'm just going to throw this out there - let's all throw our Zenny on the ground. Once people move to take it, we can take those greedy fools out.

IT'S SO SIMPLE, GUYS.

Loki
11-28-2010, 11:33 PM
Well this game's off to a roaring start. Let's crunch some numbers. We've got 16 players in the game, 3 mafia, and the secret boss. That gives us a 25% chance of lynching a mafia guy at random. That's... not too good. First day always sucks and we're probably going to off an innocent. So, I'm going to improve those odds.

Doffs mask

I'm really Niko Bellic, Capcom Avenger (yes, yes. I know not really Capcom. Blame those two guys who are running this thing). I'm a nice guy, until you cross me. Then you get what you've got coming. If you stupids lynch me I'm just going to have to take out the last person who voted. I really, really doubt that a mafia would be caught in that position. So lynching me means killing two Capcomites. Not good. But, leaving me alive means that the Mafia can't off me without sacrificing one of themselves. And with only three of them I doubt they would want to weaken themselves by a third. It's like I'm my own angel! I do hope they go after me (I really really do. C'mon do it. Do it, you pansies).

So there, now we only have to find 4 baddies out of 15 people. I'm not smart enough to do the math, but I do know the odds are slightly better. And that's what I'm here for. Slightly.

Also, I have a question about the Aspirer. They get an extra vote at night? How does that work?

Merus
11-29-2010, 12:15 AM
Also, I have a question about the Aspirer. They get an extra vote at night? How does that work?

They Aspire to be a real role. (Not intending to diss the Aspirer, because they'll get flavour the other players don't get to see.)

Kylie
11-29-2010, 01:50 AM
I accuse Loki.

Javex
11-29-2010, 04:41 AM
Loki, what are you hoping to accomplish with this "reveal"? This is the same thing any of us could do - to include the mobsters.

Color me intrigued, if a bit stupefied.

Loki
11-29-2010, 05:43 AM
I thought I was clear, but I'll try to explain better.

+The mafia (and boss) know I'm not one of them. They can try to kill me to see if I'm lying, but if I'm not it means they lose one of their own. This is especially dangerous for the boss. I don't think they'll take the chance, which means I'm safe from night hits. If they do take the risk that means that one of them goes down. I'm more than happy to sacrifice my life for a mafia (or boss) KO. Take one for the team and all that.

+Because they know they can't do a night hit on me without a sacrifice they'll try to manipulate the day voting to lynch me. I'll be paying special attention to people who nominate me (especially without any justification, like our friend Byron).

+Now, you guys might want to lynch me under the suspicion that I'm mafia and lying about being the Avenger. You would be wrong. But there's no hard proof that I can provide at this stage in the game. I ask that you trust me for now. Like I said, the odds are that we're going to lynch someone innocent today. We should play with that assumption. However, if I am lynched the last person to vote for me will get avenged. I have enough faith in the mafia (and boss) that they won't allow themselves to end up in that position. Therefore we should assume that that if the avenger (me) is lynched it will mean that two citizens die (me and the last person to vote). This is very bad. It's double the damage we would normally to ourselves, and it would advance the potential minimum length of the game by half a day. So, working under the assumption that we are most likely to lynch a citizen today, doesn't it make more sense to lynch someone who's more likely to result with only one dead Capcom than me, who will result in two?

Of course if you all are stupid and decide not to trust me and go ahead with the lynch, than at least I can walk away satisfied that I laid it all out on the table and it wasn't due to my incompetence to you all pulled a boner. If this should happen, let me tell you, the Mafia will be laughing like hyenas. If nothing else, let's not give them the satisfaction.

+If you trust me (at least for today), that removes me from list of suspects and gives us a pool of 15 potential Mafia instead of 16. That's not a huge increase in the probability of finding one, but it is an increase. Day 1 is hard enough; I'm trying to make it slightly easier.

Does that answer your question?

JohnB
11-29-2010, 05:49 AM
Well this game's off to a roaring start.

Sarcasm? I know there hasn't been any real discussion so far. You've certainly changed that, and I suppose I'm thankful.

I'm not smart enough to do the math, but I do know the odds are slightly better. And that's what I'm here for. Slightly.

Really?

Let's crunch some numbers. We've got 16 players in the game, 3 mafia, and the secret boss. That gives us a 25% chance of lynching a mafia guy at random.

I guess you do know simple division. Why act like the poor stupid Everyman? Oh wait.

If you stupids lynch me I'm just going to have to take out the last person who voted. I really, really doubt that a mafia would be caught in that position. So lynching me means killing two Capcomites. Not good.

It makes more sense to me with this peculiar maneuver that you're the Secret Boss instead. Keeping ordinary citizens alive is the best (nay, only) path to victory. If you aren't Mafia, you've certainly scared them away from voting for you, or at the very least you've affected how they would bandwagon on. If you are Mafia, you're attempting to intimidate us into not lynching you because who wants to be responsible for killing off two townies? Nobody.

I just don't think this early reveal makes much sense from either a Townie or a Mafia perspective. Can anybody come up with a plausible scenario for an unconfirmable role reveal on Day 1? I just don't see how a Capcom player would come to the conclusion that a Day 1 reveal is justified on the solitary premise that it helps the Random Kill Ratio ever so "slightly." Also, if I recall correctly, the only time this has happened before (or at least been effective) was Byron pulling his Town Drunk hijinx, but he had instant role verification, which you do not.

If you are the Secret Boss, I want you dead. If you're Mafia, I want you dead. If you're a Capcom player, you're playing stupid, and on Day 1 that is enough for me to want you dead.

I accuse Loki.

spineshark
11-29-2010, 05:53 AM
I kinda like what Loki's doing, although the ideal strategy in my opinion is to be so AWESOME that the baddies can't resist killing you. Still, it seems like the perfect time to claim if you're going to do it.

Real question: is there any reason Capcom Regulars shouldn't claim? I'm kinda inclined toward no, so...I'm Arthur from GnG. And I'm trying to figure out whether I'm immune to ties because I die in two hits, or not because I die in only two hits.

Loki
11-29-2010, 05:58 AM
I kinda like what Loki's doing, although the ideal strategy in my opinion is to be so AWESOME that the baddies can't resist killing you. Still, it seems like the perfect time to claim if you're going to do it.


I'm not going to lie, part of my stratagy to put myself out there and goad the Mafia. I don't think they'll be dumb enough to put on hit on me, but hey, there's always the chance.

You hear me you bastards? You're not men enough to try to kill me. I never thought the Mafia would all be little girls.

Spine, you can you clarify what you mean by the two-hits thing? Is that actually a power you have, or is it just flavor?

dwolfe
11-29-2010, 06:00 AM
I buy loki's reveal. At least for now. It does help because he is safe from both day and night kills and bolsters Capcom numbers. How is this not obvious? If he is lying ...we can watch his every move and kill him later.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 07:01 AM
I think revealing as the Avenger is a suboptimal use of the power.

A) An Avenger who is nightkilled guarantees a mafia or Secret Boss death. This is, IMO, the best use of the power because there is nothing unpredictable about it (unlike being the last voter in a lynch, which can be actively manipulated).

B) The mafia/Secret Boss will choose to not nightkill or K.O. a suspected/outed Avenger based upon this fear of reprisal. (This is why it makes sense that the Secret Boss would want to be considered as the Avenger!)

C) Therefore, revealing yourself as the Avenger is suboptimal play. Yes, you avoid being nightkilled yourself, but this does not verify you to the Town. No Mafia members will be nightkilled either, so you fail to distinguish yourself from their group from a Townie's perspective.

D) Assuming Loki is the Avenger, the Saboteur can act tonight (or another) and the Mafia (or Secret Boss) gets a K.O. on a powerful, dangerous citizen who would be rendered a "regular" by the Saboteur's action. They otherwise would have had to sift through 13 people to find him out. Why are we helping [I]them do this?

botticus
11-29-2010, 07:06 AM
Real question: is there any reason Capcom Regulars shouldn't claim? I'm kinda inclined toward no, so...I'm Arthur from GnG. And I'm trying to figure out whether I'm immune to ties because I die in two hits, or not because I die in only two hits.

The Secret Boss can and will claim as a regular, and any Mafia and Capcom roles (except Loki!) will probably fake claim as a regular, so I don't know that we'll get much out of it at the end of the day, unless one of the fakers manages to pick a character someone else has.

John's thought about Loki as Secret Boss has some merit, but it seems a little risky to fake claim right off the bat. Though since it seems like he has to be the last man standing to win, I guess it can't hurt. If he's a Capcomite it does offer a nice insurance policy for the rest of us if the other factions don't believe him (assuming we don't lynch him instead).

Loki
11-29-2010, 07:17 AM
D) Assuming Loki is the Avenger, the Saboteur can act tonight (or another) and the Mafia (or Secret Boss) gets a K.O. on a powerful, dangerous citizen who would be rendered a "regular" by the Saboteur's action. They otherwise would have had to sift through 13 people to find him out. Why are we helping [I]them do this?

They way I understand the rules, is this isn't possible. The mafia can't target the same player the Saboteur does. The target of the hit is "in play" and the Saboteur can't target "in play" characters.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 07:23 AM
They way I understand the rules, is this isn't possible. The mafia can't target the same player the Saboteur does. The target of the hit is "in play" and the Saboteur can't target "in play" characters.

How about this: the Saboteur targets you/the Avenger, rendering you a "regular." The Secret Boss then uses his nightly K.O. ability to kill you. Sigh.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 07:25 AM
...Although, of course, the Secret Boss is taking a risk that the Saboteur has acted that night on you, otherwise his/her ass is grass too and Loki the Avenger has thus helped the Town.

Loki
11-29-2010, 07:26 AM
You're assuming the Boss and the Mafia communicate at night. Which I don't think they do (unless I missed it in the rules). Remember the Boss and the Mafia are not on the same team.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 07:46 AM
You're assuming the Boss and the Mafia communicate at night. Which I don't think they do (unless I missed it in the rules). Remember the Boss and the Mafia are not on the same team.

Of course they aren't. But both the Mafia and the Secret Boss benefit from having Power Roles K.O.'d. And, unfortunately, if you are the Avenger tonight would be the ideal time to off you. The Mafia & Boss wouldn't really need communication to independently come to that conclusion. It comes down to this- does the Boss trust the Mafia enough that the Saboteur has picked your name on any given night (specifically, Night 1) so that he/she chooses to K.O. you? Or, will the fear of reprisal always make the Mafia/Secret Boss never choose to kill you at night, Loki?

Loki
11-29-2010, 08:01 AM
Well, it certainly doesn't help with you posting that plan all out in the open, JohnB.

Just who's side are you on?

JohnB
11-29-2010, 08:10 AM
Well, it certainly doesn't help with you posting that plan all out in the open, JohnB.

Just who's side are you on?

And maybe you should have fucking thought about this before revealing, if you are who you say you are. Besides, do Mafia members usually make their tactics/plans public for town discussion? I'm spelling this all out because, frankly, at this time I don't believe that Loki is our Avenger and perhaps this discussion can serve as a warning.

spineshark
11-29-2010, 08:52 AM
Spine, you can you clarify what you mean by the two-hits thing? Is that actually a power you have, or is it just flavor?
It's speculation based on flavor, yeah. In GnG when Arthur gets hit once, he starts running around in his underwear. If he gets hit again he dies.

Adam
11-29-2010, 09:01 AM
Makes sense to me, especially since I'm looking for some GM swerves.

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a453/adamadamada/gtaiv_54534-1.jpg

kaisel
11-29-2010, 09:28 AM
I don't think revealing was the wisest of moves, but I can see the reasoning why you'd want to. If Loki is the Capcom Avenger, he doesn't want people voting for him, and doesn't want the chance that should he get lynched, that a Capcom person would vote for him last, and leave two people dead instead of one. Still though, I think it was a bad move to out himself that early.

Luana
11-29-2010, 09:28 AM
I don't know how I feel about Loki's reveal. I mean, on one hand I think it's a bold move, but then JohnB brings up a lot of good points about how the Mafia could easily work against this. If anything, I would think the best strategy for the Avenger would be to goad the Mafia/Secret Boss into killing them without a reveal: sure, you don't get to play anymore, but you just took out a huge chunk of the opposition.

With all of spine's musings on flavor-related powers, I'm half-tempted to kill him to see if he actually does have two lives. However, if he did, I'd imagine that'd make him an easy Mafia target. Hrm.

spineshark
11-29-2010, 09:38 AM
All other players are Regulars; they have no special powers, but may have protection from stalemates.
This and my PM are all I'm going off of. I do not believe I am capable of surviving anything more than a tie.

namelessentity
11-29-2010, 09:43 AM
I think it is way too bold a move for the mafia to front a role on Day 1. If ol' Brick were here he would be tellin' you how fronting a role just doesn't make sense from the mafia perspective, too much risk for too little reward, and that is compounded by each day you have to pretend to be that role.

I will agree that Avenger is one of the safer roles to front, only confirmation on death, but I still think it is too risky.

I will also agree that a day 1 reveal was not the best use of the power, but what can we do now.

Well, it certainly doesn't help with you posting that plan all out in the open, JohnB.

Just who's side are you on?

This is the most troubling for me. The mafia boss is all alone, he has to be the last man standing to win, which means he has to take out the avenger somehow. He can't do it himself because he knows he'll die. His only options are to get the town to lynch him, or find someway of communicating to the mob to team up. And what better place to hide than in plain sight.

I'm not sure of anything right now, but I know who I'm keeping my eyes on.

Kylie
11-29-2010, 09:56 AM
I think it is way too bold a move for the mafia to front a role on Day 1. If ol' Brick were here he would be tellin' you how fronting a role just doesn't make sense from the mafia perspective, too much risk for too little reward, and that is compounded by each day you have to pretend to be that role.


Brick isn't making this point. You are. You don't have to pretend that it's Brick's.

namelessentity
11-29-2010, 10:04 AM
Brick isn't making this point. You are. You don't have to pretend that it's Brick's.

People tend to believe it more when Brick says it than when I say it. The point remains, the only time the mafia has fronted a role they died almost immediately. It is far more to their advantage to make us not trust our power roles than it is for them to feed us false information through a fronted one

Kylie
11-29-2010, 10:08 AM
People will tend to attribute my opinion to Brick instead of me.

I see you mixed up some words there. I fixed that for you.

Adam
11-29-2010, 11:04 AM
I'm inclined to believe Loki on this one. The Mafia haven't even had time to talk with each other, so not only would faking a role on day 1 be bad strategy (thanks bricklessentity), but it'd be a single person's strategy. I don't think one member would do something so risky without their team's backup.

There are so few Mafia members that I feel it'd be stupid for one of them to even consider drawing attention this early. If Loki were faking the role, he'd have to worry about there being a real Avenger in play to call his bluff. If this is a strategy to flush out the real Avenger, I have to ask the people who have voted for Loki why they think the Mafia would bother.

Also, if you're Mafia, and you have a feeling that Loki is in fact the Avenger, you're going to want to vote as early as possible. Yo Byron or JohnB, if you're so sure that Loki is lying, how about one of you pulls your vote, spends the day convincing us you're right, and promises to vote last?

dwolfe
11-29-2010, 11:14 AM
Let's be honest. If we had bandwagon-ed vs Loki's what, Captain America? (leader of the Avengers, even if he didn't join until Issue #4)...

Would ANYONE have believed him, or believed the Avenger defense to change votes? I doubt it.

At best we'd get people un/revoting repeatedly so they weren't the last ones voting for him, I think.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 11:22 AM
Also, if you're Mafia, and you have a feeling that Loki is in fact the Avenger, you're going to want to vote as early as possible. Yo Byron or JohnB, if you're so sure that Loki is lying, how about one of you pulls your vote, spends the day convincing us you're right, and promises to vote last?

Last I checked I am the last one to vote for him.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 11:30 AM
The Mafia haven't even had time to talk with each other, so not only would faking a role on day 1 be bad strategy (thanks bricklessentity), but it'd be a single person's strategy. I don't think one member would do something so risky without their team's backup.

Hence my Secret Boss theory. It makes far more sense for the Secret Boss to claim Avenger than a Mafia member.

If Loki were faking the role, he'd have to worry about there being a real Avenger in play to call his bluff.

Not really. For reasons I outlined earlier I think the Avenger's power is much greater when his/her identity is a secret. I doubt the real Avenger is going to out themselves over this, because their existence is much more useful to their team, The Town, hidden. It's just like in M5 when Paul took his secret that he was an Angel to his grave.

shivam
11-29-2010, 11:49 AM
this is bizarre. loki's trying to pull a byron here and create a confirmed bloc around him. And the only way we have to check is if someone tries to KO him and dies.

Now, I'm inclined to believe loki, simply because it doesnt make sense to try to shape the narrative before speaking with the rest of the mafiosos.


ALSO! Guys, niko bellic is a mafia guy. that's the whole point of GTA. why would he be on the capcom side? Loki's either right, and the GMs are fucking with us, or he's a fucking lier.

Adam
11-29-2010, 11:56 AM
ALSO! Guys, niko bellic is a mafia guy. that's the whole point of GTA. why would he be on the capcom side? Loki's either right, and the GMs are fucking with us, or he's a fucking lier.

Some Capcom characters may have joined the Silver Screen Mafia; some mafia characters may be working with the Capcom Universe.

Shivam, are you sure you read the rules?

kaisel
11-29-2010, 11:57 AM
I'm more inclined to believe that Loki is actually the Avenger since the move I'd associate with the Secret Boss would be to wait until there was some heat on him and then try to spin yourself off as Avenger, you don't want to call a lot of attention to yourself if you're the Boss. On the other hand though that falls apart when someone else claims Avenger...

One thing that I find interesting is this line in the rules: Roles are not arbitrarily assigned; it is possible to derive a player's likely role from their character.

Is there something in GTA 4 (haven't played any of 'em) that screams Avenger for the character? Or should we just ignore that line in the rules?

Adam
11-29-2010, 12:04 PM
I think that line is pretty important, although less so now that you've called it out. Case in point, Spineshark is either a super-clever liar with his professed Character and ability, or he's legit.

SDMX
11-29-2010, 12:05 PM
This is beyond clusterfuck.

I was with Loki right up until Adam and Kaisel's underlinings. Now I have no idea whatthefuck. Hard enough that I can't do this while I work. I feel like I've got to reread the rules first when I get home because I can say make any real progress.

WHADYA PEOPLE DOIN EVEN

botticus
11-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Hence my Secret Boss theory. It makes far more sense for the Secret Boss to claim Avenger than a Mafia member.

The problem with the Secret Boss theory is that the he scans as a Capcom Regular. So as soon as the Launderer spends a few bucks tonight to investigate Loki, the jig is up (if there is in fact a jig taking place). And considering the SB can potentially decimate the Mafia more efficiently than the rest of us can (no need for consensus there), they'll probably want to deal with him as quickly as any of us.

Now if we're lucky enough to take out the Launderer on a lynch today, then we'll have to revisit this whole thing.

botticus
11-29-2010, 12:52 PM
In summary: I'm inclined to believe Loki for now, and wanting to lynch him because you don't agree with his strategy, which would also then result in an additional likely-Capcom death, is even worse strategy - we could potentially lose 4 members in the first day/night cycle.

spineshark
11-29-2010, 12:54 PM
How about this: the Saboteur targets you/the Avenger, rendering you a "regular." The Secret Boss then uses his nightly K.O. ability to kill you. Sigh.
Yeah, except they could also not do this since it helps them more to have the SB get killed at the same time.

Sigh.

Adam
11-29-2010, 01:02 PM
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a453/adamadamada/psyduck.gif

shivam
11-29-2010, 01:09 PM
i'll say this much--loki's definitely woken the game up from yesterday's slump.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 03:21 PM
Yeah, except they could also not do this since it helps them more to have the SB get killed at the same time.

Sigh.

If you're Mafia then they both need to die, right? It's much harder to actually kill the Avenger than the Secret Boss given his protection.

http://translatingteens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/charlie-brown-sigh.jpg

Adam
11-29-2010, 03:25 PM
If you're Mafia then they both need to die, right?

Well, no. The Avenger can go sit in the corner and suck eggs as far as the Mafia is concerned. All they need to do is outnumber him and his little friends.

dwolfe
11-29-2010, 03:41 PM
Guys, there's probably a few dozen potential Capcom/Mafia characters; if their abilities might be related to the character, it's worth privately thinking about some likely characters.

I don't like early accusals, so I'm going to say

I accuse Byron.

Not that there's much evidence, honestly, but I want some other options for lynching today considered. Enough with the Loki thing. He hasn't gotten a third vote yet and the clock is ticking. Day one there's no data, so him speaking up as a plan to keep us from talking usefully seems...unlikely.

Loki
11-29-2010, 03:45 PM
The problem is that there's some ambiguity in the rules. The Saboteur can't target anyone "in play" but the only player the rules say are "in play" is the mafioso that is performing the hit. Is the target "in play?" Is the target of a KO "in play?" Can I ever be the target of the Saboteur?

Also, the Saboteur prevents a player from taking an action, but that's not what I do. My ability is completely passive. I can't choose when to retaliate, I just do. So am I "taking an action?" Technically, I don't do anything until the knife is in my back.

---

The mafia's biggest disadvantage on Day 1 is that they can't communicate directly to each other. But this isn't to say they can't communicate at all. When I was on the Mafia in M2, on Day 1 I payed close attention to what the other Mafia was posting. We could play along with each other and come to a sort of "group consensus of play." We weren't following any set plan, but at the same time we weren't going to say anything that would hurt the team.

I don't know if I'm being clear. What I'm trying to say is that the Mafia know who each other are, and can leave messages intended for each other in their posts.

We can argue the merits of my reveal until the cow comes home, but it won't ever change the fact that I DID REVEAL. There's nothing we can do to change it. Arguing whether it was a good idea or not isn't going to win the game. I mean, fuck, half of Day 1 was already wasted with no real discussion.

This is the way I see it: JohnB has wasted a lot of words on something he can't go back and change. Worse, he's vocalized a potentially (maybe, based on the rules) good mafia strategy. All out in the open. Where the mafia (and boss) can see it. When it was unnecessary, as I can't take back the reveal. In addition, the best way for the mafia to deal with me is still forcing a lynch. He's arguing that I'm the Secret Boss a lot, and, well, he has voted for me. I know I'm not lying, so he's looking really suspicious in my eyes.

I accuse John B.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the day ends at at 2 Pacific tonight. We're quickly running out of time. If my reveal turns out to be a boneheaded move, than so be it. But we're not going to catch any mafia debating if it was smart or not. What else you guys got?

Karzac
11-29-2010, 03:50 PM
Wow, I get home from work and suddenly the thread's aflame with the full brilliance of the Cossover Conflagration. Exciting! Well, I suppose I'll throw in my two cents.

I can't seem to find who said it, but something important was brought up earlier: the Secret Boss probably wants the Avenger dead and the only way he can safely do it is to convince the town to lynch him (the Avenger). If the SB tried to KO the Avenger himself, he'd be killed. Therefore, he would try to find out who the Avenger was, make an argument for the town to kill him and be sure to vote for him early so as not to get revenged.

Hmm... it seems that we have a situation like this going on right now. That's right:

I accuse JohnB

I think that he believes Loki and is doing his best to get rid of a big obstacle on his path to victory. It's a solid plan, with very few downsides for him. Except for the one downside he forgot: ME!

JohnB
11-29-2010, 03:52 PM
I think that he believes Loki and is doing his best to get rid of a big obstacle on his path to victory. It's a solid plan, with very few downsides for him. Except for the one downside he forgot: ME!

lolwut

Karzac
11-29-2010, 03:53 PM
lolwut

Just trying to make the post somewhat more exciting. Also, I'm very sleep deprived.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 04:05 PM
Wow, I get home from work and suddenly the thread's aflame with the full brilliance of the Cossover Conflagration. Exciting! Well, I suppose I'll throw in my two cents.

I can't seem to find who said it, but something important was brought up earlier: the Secret Boss probably wants the Avenger dead and the only way he can safely do it is to convince the town to lynch him (the Avenger). If the SB tried to KO the Avenger himself, he'd be killed. Therefore, he would try to find out who the Avenger was, make an argument for the town to kill him and be sure to vote for him early so as not to get revenged.

Hmm... it seems that we have a situation like this going on right now. That's right:

I accuse JohnB

I think that he believes Loki and is doing his best to get rid of a big obstacle on his path to victory. It's a solid plan, with very few downsides for him. Except for the one downside he forgot: ME!

Also, I don't believe Loki. That's why I'm voting for him. I'm the last voter, in fact. What more do you friggin need?

Karzac
11-29-2010, 04:10 PM
Also, I don't believe Loki. That's why I'm voting for him. I'm the last voter, in fact. What more do you friggin need?

You're the last voter, but clearly you planned on him having more than two votes. You could be the only person to have voted for him and still claim to be the last voter. Maybe if there were a few more people who voted for him in front of you, your argument would have more credence.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 04:14 PM
You're the last voter, but clearly you planned on him having more than two votes. You could be the only person to have voted for him and still claim to be the last voter. Maybe if there were a few more people who voted for him in front of you, your argument would have more credence.

So the only people worth lynching are the ones where a bandwagon is in place? The only valid arguments are the ones that are the most persuasive?

Seriously? Have you played mafia games before?

Karzac
11-29-2010, 04:20 PM
So the only people worth lynching are the ones where a bandwagon is in place? The only valid arguments are the ones that are the most persuasive?

Seriously? Have you played mafia games before?

No, actually. Well, at least, not on these boards. The only times I've played mafia have been at camp or parties and it usually ends up with random finger pointing and bandwagoning.

But that's not the case here. It would actually be way more dangerous to vote for the Avenger once a bandwagon was in place, because it would be more likely for you to be the last to vote. The more effective strategy would be to vote for them with the intention of starting a bandwagon. Which is what I think you're doing.

I don't really know what you meant by "The only valid arguments are the ones that are the most persuasive?" Did I imply that? Were you not trying to persuade people? I was under the impression that persuasion was the main mechanic of the game.

shivam
11-29-2010, 04:27 PM
loki, i'm pretty sure the day ends on wednesday morning.

That said, I think loki's telling the truth, and i think that john's a townie, and i think that karzac is barking up the wrong tree, but is also a townie, because he has nothing to gain by deflecting attention away from loki, as loki and john's double death would be great for a mafia.

who hasn't spoken yet?

JohnB
11-29-2010, 04:29 PM
The problem is that there's some ambiguity in the rules. The Saboteur can't target anyone "in play" but the only player the rules say are "in play" is the mafioso that is performing the hit. Is the target "in play?" Is the target of a KO "in play?" Can I ever be the target of the Saboteur?

Also, the Saboteur prevents a player from taking an action, but that's not what I do. My ability is completely passive. I can't choose when to retaliate, I just do. So am I "taking an action?" Technically, I don't do anything until the knife is in my back.

---

The mafia's biggest disadvantage on Day 1 is that they can't communicate directly to each other. But this isn't to say they can't communicate at all. When I was on the Mafia in M2, on Day 1 I payed close attention to what the other Mafia was posting. We could play along with each other and come to a sort of "group consensus of play." We weren't following any set plan, but at the same time we weren't going to say anything that would hurt the team.

I don't know if I'm being clear. What I'm trying to say is that the Mafia know who each other are, and can leave messages intended for each other in their posts.

We can argue the merits of my reveal until the cow comes home, but it won't ever change the fact that I DID REVEAL. There's nothing we can do to change it. Arguing whether it was a good idea or not isn't going to win the game. I mean, fuck, half of Day 1 was already wasted with no real discussion.

This is the way I see it: JohnB has wasted a lot of words on something he can't go back and change. Worse, he's vocalized a potentially (maybe, based on the rules) good mafia strategy. All out in the open. Where the mafia (and boss) can see it. When it was unnecessary, as I can't take back the reveal. In addition, the best way for the mafia to deal with me is still forcing a lynch. He's arguing that I'm the Secret Boss a lot, and, well, he has voted for me. I know I'm not lying, so he's looking really suspicious in my eyes.

I accuse John B.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the day ends at at 2 Pacific tonight. We're quickly running out of time. If my reveal turns out to be a boneheaded move, than so be it. But we're not going to catch any mafia debating if it was smart or not. What else you guys got?

1) The Days are 72 hours long. Chillax. We have time to keep hashing this out.

2) You seem to be saying "Hey dawgs, I'm the Avenger. Let's not keep wasting time figuring out if I shoulda told you that. Let's definitely not discuss whether I'm full of shit or not. Hey, whoa, that other dude over there posted a lot today. He's saying shit I don't like. That's not cool. Not cool at all, brosephs. Let's hang his ass from a tree cuz he thinks critically and stuff. Righteous!"

Paul le Fou
11-29-2010, 04:34 PM
Man, that punch was strong. My head is killing me. Hey, why is this guy dead? And that guy? Why didn't anyone wake me up? What do you mean you tried? Assholes.


I believed Loki until I got to the post where he came back with an accusation against JohnB. Now I'm less sure.

JohnB, of course, comes up as suspicious to me for the reasons Loki outlined, but I've also seen John play enough that the worst I can say about his performance today is that it's consistent with his Angry Dog playstyle of grabbing something and just shaking it.

One name I'd like to see more from is Byron. His immediate (and damn near only) response was to accuse Loki. It's possible he simply doesn't believe him, but if Loki is the avenger, the first vote is the safest place to be - driving a possible lynch attempt and safety from the revenge kill. He's since stayed quiet about it while JohnB dukes it out with Loki and tries to drive the lynch for him.


I think that line is pretty important, although less so now that you've called it out. Case in point, Spineshark is either a super-clever liar with his supposed possible Character and ability, or he's legit.

Not a big point, but to be fair, he has admitted that he's basically guessing.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 04:45 PM
In other news, Loki does tangentially raise the point that we are more than halfway through the day. Ignoring my obvious copious free time at work today, what do you guys think about this?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5126/5219020783_51f8ccf511_b.jpg

botticus
11-29-2010, 04:56 PM
who hasn't spoken yet?

With Paul's post, I think that's everyone. And beaten by an image!

I think that graphic shows that JohnB is either Mafia or he's going to be night-killed on the first night again. And by pointing this out, you can thank me for saving you from that fate.

Also, because M7 happened, I'm keeping a very keen eye on Umby's post count. But for today

I accuse Byron

for the hit-and-run accusation.

botticus
11-29-2010, 05:00 PM
If you're Mafia then they both need to die, right? It's much harder to actually kill the Avenger than the Secret Boss given his protection.

And spine is correct in that the Mafia are better off not nulling the Avenger's power so that the Secret Boss can kill him without repercussion. Without coordinating, the Secret Boss has to take a leap of faith that the Mafia are sabotaging him when he goes for the KO. If the Mafia choose not to do so, they're both dead. Yay for Mafia.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 05:00 PM
I think that graphic shows that JohnB is either Mafia or he's going to be night-killed on the first night again. And by pointing this out, you can thank me for saving you from that fate.

Thanks! I'm too awesome to let that happen AGAIN.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 05:01 PM
And spine is correct in that the Mafia are better off not nulling the Avenger's power so that the Secret Boss can kill him without repercussion. Without coordinating, the Secret Boss has to take a leap of faith that the Mafia are sabotaging him when he goes for the KO. If the Mafia choose not to do so, they're both dead. Yay for Mafia.

And yay for us! I would absolutely trade our Avenger for the Secret Boss.

Loki
11-29-2010, 05:03 PM
2) You seem to be saying "Hey dawgs, I'm the Avenger. Let's not keep wasting time figuring out if I shoulda told you that. Let's definitely not discuss whether I'm full of shit or not. Hey, whoa, that other dude over there posted a lot today. He's saying shit I don't like. That's not cool. Not cool at all, brosephs. Let's hang his ass from a tree cuz he thinks critically and stuff. Righteous!"

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not suspicious of you for criticizing my motivations, but whether it was a GOOD IDEA or not seems a sticking point with you. Smart move =/= motivation. Also, you openly posted mafia strategies that they otherwise wouldn't have had an opportunity to coordinate. That's suspicious. Damn suspicious.

botticus
11-29-2010, 05:03 PM
And yay for us! I would absolutely trade our Avenger for the Secret Boss.

Indubitably. Which is why until something changes my mind I'd rather not run the risk of lynching him and losing somebody else as well.

Karzac
11-29-2010, 05:08 PM
I agree that Byron looks suspiscious as well, but I'll stick to my guns until we hear more from him.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 05:14 PM
That's not what I'm saying. I'm not suspicious of you for criticizing my motivations, but whether it was a GOOD IDEA or not seems a sticking point with you.

It's a sticking point because on Day 1 I'm looking for any data better than random chance to hang my hat on. You revealing, if you are in fact the Avenger, is a bad move. If you're not the Avenger, then it is highly probable that you are someone I want to kill. Hence, I am comfortable that a vote for you is better than random chance of killing a mafia/SB.

Also, you openly posted mafia strategies that they otherwise wouldn't have had an opportunity to coordinate. That's suspicious. Damn suspicious.

I posted a potential Mafia strategy? So what? I was following an idea openly to its conclusion. A conclusion which can be avoided by our real Avenger if he/she keeps their damn mouth shut. I fail to see how this hurts the town.

Also, you again accuse me of collusion/coordination with the mafia. What evidence makes you see/think that? If I'm a mafia I'm doing a shitty job, since you only have two goddamn votes. The last of which is from me. I'm going to die if you hang. This smells like mafia tactics to you?

Loki
11-29-2010, 05:18 PM
Yes. Have to post at least 5 characters.

shivam
11-29-2010, 05:22 PM
you guys are on a collision course to town loss land. this needs to stop.

JohnB
11-29-2010, 05:24 PM
Loki isn't going to convince me, and vice versa. It's up to you folks to make up your damn minds.

We've both voted. Who hasn't yet?

shivam
11-29-2010, 05:26 PM
ok then, I vote for Spineshark. His reveal is otherwise pointless, and doesn't seem to attach to any of the roles in the first post. I think he's trying to red herring us away from him for the time being, and that's fishy.

Javex
11-29-2010, 06:10 PM
So, I'm back in the office, and I see that Loki's (ill-advised) reveal did, in fact, start discussion. So, kudos for that. Still, it doesn't make sense to me, because ANYONE CAN SAY WHAT HE SAID. Just change the character to match your own, and bam - instant Loki argument! I'm Capcom! And even if you don't believe me, I know it! And if the mafia/boss kill me, they're total stupidheads for killing off a known element! DOESN'T THAT MAKE SENSE*?

But still, that's not a killable offense. That doesn't scream mafia to me, that just screams "attention whore".

You know what does scream mafia to me?

In other news, Loki does tangentially raise the point that we are more than halfway through the day. Ignoring my obvious copious free time at work today, what do you guys think about this?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5126/5219020783_51f8ccf511_b.jpg

Here's why - time and time again we've had this discussion - KILL THE LOUD/QUIET ONES, GUYS, THEY'RE MAFIA. Note that John doesn't actually say "Hey look at who's been loud/quiet today! - Got something to hide, FELLA?" To me, it's like he's trying to push that idea on us without actually starting the conversation himself.

And maybe I'm clearly off, and maybe this is just what he wanted someone to say, but when has that ever stopped me from doing something ridiculous?

I accuse JohnB.

Javex
11-29-2010, 06:11 PM
*It doesn't!

JohnB
11-29-2010, 06:35 PM
maybe I'm clearly off, and maybe this is just what he wanted someone to say, but when has that ever stopped me from doing something ridiculous?

It is, in fact, what I want someone to say. However, I've already moved on to the oft-favored topic of the last 24 hours - those who haven't voted yet.

botticus
11-29-2010, 06:50 PM
It is, in fact, what I want someone to say. However, I've already moved on to the oft-favored topic of the last 24 hours - those who haven't voted yet.
Well then.

JohnB: 3
Loki
Karzac
Javex

Loki: 2
Byron
JohnB

Byron: 2
dwolfe
botticus

spineshark: 1
shivam

Not yet voted:
Adam
kaisel
Luana
namelessentity
Paul le Fou
SDMX
spineshark
Umby

That's the setup as we head into the final 30 hours or so.

kaisel
11-29-2010, 07:07 PM
RE: Roles

We ignore them. It's too easy to lie about your role, and there's only a handful of ways to learn someone's role. I think it best that we ignore them for now. It's also the only information that normal folks get.

I find it a little odd that spineshark asked if anyone could think of a reason for Capcom Regulars not to expose themselves, but then revealed himself without waiting to hear discussion. I'm not 100% sure it means anything, but I mean, if I were Mafia and read that my first thought would be to come out as random Capcom character, and have people link me to being normal and harmless, especially since our character is apparently the only important information.

I vote to lynch spineshark, for now, though it's not set in stone or anything.

Javex
11-29-2010, 07:36 PM
ALSO! Guys, niko bellic is a mafia guy. that's the whole point of GTA. why would he be on the capcom side? Loki's either right, and the GMs are fucking with us, or he's a fucking lier.

So, I had to double-check, because I thought I remembered something I read awhile back...

Niko IS indeed a Capcom guy! Capcom released GTA IV in Japan. So there's that.

Adam
11-29-2010, 07:58 PM
Speaking of a bad segue:

LUANA
UMBY
&SDMX

Do any of you plan on saying more than "Hey! We're playing Mafia!"?

PAUL

Good morning, sunshine!

Umby
11-29-2010, 09:01 PM
As per usual for me on day one, school and technical difficulties make it difficult for me to post.

For one, I think that we should completely ignore anything coming from Loki's reveal. Why? Because it's a huge distraction, either caused by Loki's reveal which was meant to throw us on different sides and split the town, or some people craftily causing this otherwise. Besides, there's nothing we can do to act on Loki's reveal. Loki's reveal was rather safe and I am willing to think, for now, that it would be too bold of a mafia move to make on the first day. Loki also did this to spur up conversation, which was admittedly very low and I was going to try to stir this thread up before I saw it grew three pages on me in the night. He's definitely not looking very mafia-y at this point.

Next in line: JohnB is innocent, or as good as one on the first day. Speaking from experience, no mafia member is going to post as much as he does on the first day. Mafia is going to wait around and see if they have to play the game, and JohnB was right there from the start, willing to drive the conversation and help the town. For all I know, he's innocent, and it's stupid to start a bandwagon this early.

On the other hand of things, mafia wouldn't be so obvious as to post a one liner saying that one of the possibly confirmed roles is stupid. That would draw too much attention and cause us to vote for him. There's the slight chance that Loki and Byron are in league, but I'm willing to put that thought at the back of my mind... for now.

In other news, Shivam's been shaking trees and getting little information... on purpose. I want to hear more from him, and he's pretty slippery. Let's nail this guy to the ground. I accuse Shivam.

shivam
11-29-2010, 09:11 PM
What sort of information are you looking for, son? My logic is as follows-- Loki's reveal was him trying to be byron. I'm reading innocent. John is also an innocent, trying to call Loki's bluff, which will lead to both of their deaths.

Spine, however, claimed a role out of nowhere, didn't wait for any discussion, posted a role that doesn't fit with anything in the initial post, and disappeared. That screams out bullshit to me, so I called him on it and put him on the block.

If you're talking about my rules clarifications in the intro, it's because i was super burned by rules in the last two games, and that shit ain't happening again.

what else do you want to know?

namelessentity
11-29-2010, 09:15 PM
While I don't agree with what JohnB was saying, I can't fault him for shaking trees and trying to get some talk going. Talk is good, and I would imagine the mafia and the secret boss would try to be laying low, so I don't see JohnB as a baddie.

I vote for spineshark for his not so subtle "don't kill me because I'm innocent." Anybody can make that claim, it doesn't mean anything. The only people who should be nervous enough that they feel they have to say it our the baddies.

Our votes are kindof all over the place (which I guess is to be expected on the first day). I'm not too worried because there are still people out there who need to vote, but we avoid close matches that one person could completely change the outcome like the last games

spineshark
11-29-2010, 09:19 PM
Well, no. The Avenger can go sit in the corner and suck eggs as far as the Mafia is concerned. All they need to do is outnumber him and his little friends.
Right. But ideally, he will just become so awesome that they can't reasonably decide to just leave him alone.

With that in mind, if you have misgivings about Loki, the time to deal with them is right now. The Mafia will probably not try anything, especially if he's telling the truth, and the longer he stays alive, the more suspicious it looks, but the more devastating a 2-in-1 is.
The Secret Boss can and will claim as a regular, and any Mafia and Capcom roles (except Loki!) will probably fake claim as a regular, so I don't know that we'll get much out of it at the end of the day, unless one of the fakers manages to pick a character someone else has.
But is "people who were going to lie anyway lie" a negative result? Of course everyone's going to say they're plain, but there's another piece of information attached to that. And while I don't think there's anything inherently reliable about that information...I just don't see anything bad about having it in the open.

Luana
11-29-2010, 09:28 PM
Do any of you plan on saying more than "Hey! We're playing Mafia!"?

I honestly had nothing to contribute of worth other than "uh, I don't think any of you are telling the truth", which was why I was trying to figure things out. Then I noticed this:

However, I've already moved on to the oft-favored topic of the last 24 hours - those who haven't voted yet.

Was it really the oft-favored topic? I don't know if you can say that, since all shivam asked was who wasn't talking, and only here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912673&postcount=92) has someone mentioned the vote count (fun fact: that's you). I'm not counting the original Who's Talking screenshot (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912633&postcount=81) you posted, because that wasn't necessarily a vote count, and only after you mentioned it twice did someone actually reference it.

Good job in making yourself look shadier than Loki, dude! I accuse JohnB.

Javex
11-29-2010, 09:31 PM
Here's my concern - the rules make it clear the secret boss will pop up as a Capcom Regular if he's scanned, provided he's not acting that night.

So, to my way of thinking, the Secret Boss would WANT to be scanned sooner rather than later. If he says "HEY, LOOK HERE, I'M TOTALLY A REGULAR", and someone who can scan does scan him shortly after, he's in the clear to start a roaring rampage.

So claiming Capcom regular early on is a pretty good move for someone who doesn't give a damn about the town OR the mafia.

(That said, I'm still liking JohnB, until spine or Loki say something ridiculously stupid).

shivam
11-29-2010, 09:31 PM
oft favorite meaning every fucking mafia game we play, in aggregate, not just this one.

that said, way to bandwagon hop there, luana. I'm thinking we need to pay very close attention to John's accuser list, cause that's smelling like criminality to me.

spineshark
11-29-2010, 09:38 PM
I'm not trying to direct extra attention toward Loki, by the way. I believe him, or I'd be voting for him right now.
I'm thinking we need to pay very close attention to John's accuser list, cause that's smelling like criminality to me.
As always, shivam has four arms, all pointing in different directions.

Luana
11-29-2010, 09:40 PM
oft favorite meaning every fucking mafia game we play, in aggregate, not just this one.

that said, way to bandwagon hop there, luana. I'm thinking we need to pay very close attention to John's accuser list, cause that's smelling like criminality to me.

I don't know, bandwagoning to me would be to just jump in and say "oh well I've got nothing, but this dude looks sneaky so whatever". I made my case -- it's obvious that John's not just the most talkative, but also the most manipulative of the group. He's claiming things that aren't necessarily there. He may not be Mafia, no, but Secret Boss? Wouldn't surprise me.

Also, if my count's correct, we've got four people voting for him. Are you saying that Loki's innocent and the rest of us are Mafia, then?

Your case for spine doesn't hold too much water for me (his description could certainly fit a Regular's role, for all he did was tell us his character), and while I can't be sure that Loki's the Avenger, there's only one way to find out and I'm not so confident as to commit suicide for half-hearted guesses. As of now, JohnB seems the fishiest, so I'm going to vote for him and let you think what you want.

Luana
11-29-2010, 09:41 PM
Either way, Loki, that was a very clever move and it's damn sure going to keep you alive unless you shoot yourself in the foot somehow.

Adam
11-29-2010, 09:46 PM
Here's my concern - the rules make it clear the secret boss will pop up as a Capcom Regular if he's scanned, provided he's not acting that night.

So, to my way of thinking, the Secret Boss would WANT to be scanned sooner rather than later. If he says "HEY, LOOK HERE, I'M TOTALLY A REGULAR", and someone who can scan does scan him shortly after, he's in the clear to start a roaring rampage.

So claiming Capcom regular early on is a pretty good move for someone who doesn't give a damn about the town OR the mafia.

Yes, but no.

Yes, you're right the Secret Boss would love to have people believe that he (or she SORRY LUANA) is a Capcomite.

and No, because unless one of the Lovers dies, THERE IS NO TOWN INSPECTOR.

The best we have is the Tracker, who gets to follow one player to see what they do at night. And of the two roles claimed, neither of them gets a night action. So even if Sekrit Boss would love the town to scan them as innocent, we can't.

Javex
11-29-2010, 09:49 PM
Clearly I need to be more like shivam in trying to understand the rules. Ugh.

Thanks, Adam.

Luana
11-29-2010, 10:08 PM
Yes, but no.

Yes, you're right the Secret Boss would love to have people believe that he (or she SORRY LUANA) is a Capcomite.

and No, because unless one of the Lovers dies, THERE IS NO TOWN INSPECTOR.

The best we have is the Tracker, who gets to follow one player to see what they do at night. And of the two roles claimed, neither of them gets a night action. So even if Sekrit Boss would love the town to scan them as innocent, we can't.

It wouldn't matter if we had the Grieving Inspector, for if the scan works like the Launderer's scan, the Secret Boss would show up as a Regular no matter what. He's completely going to be off the radar, and as far as I can tell, the only way we're going to truly suss out his identity is by a lucky kill early on or if we have a smart Tracker. I mean, yeah, the Grieving Socialite could be of use as well (for if they revealed the character's identities they found), but we can't count on that because 1) we don't really want the Lovers to die; and 2) we don't even know if we have any Lovers.

Luana
11-29-2010, 10:09 PM
It wouldn't matter if we had the Grieving Inspector, for if the scan works like the Launderer's scan, the Secret Boss would show up as a Capcom no matter what.

Ugh, fixed. I need to learn how to hit preview. At least my latter point's still valid.

Adam
11-29-2010, 11:01 PM
It wouldn't matter if we had the Grieving Inspector, for if the scan works like the Launderer's scan, the Secret Boss would show up as a Regular no matter what.

Well yes, that was the whole point behind Javex's idea that the SB would want to be scanned as soon as possible. Because any scan of them will show up as Capcom Regular. That was covered under YES.

Clearly I need to be more like shivam in trying to understand the rules.

No problem.

I'm still sussing through the rules to see if there are any other assumptions that are tripping us up. So far we have:

1. Town has no inspectors (for the moment)

2. Even though this is Mafia vs. Capcom, not everyone who is a Capcom character is on the Capcom team and vice-versa.

and my new canard:

3. There are four Mafia roles, but only three Mafia members!

The Godfather, if missing, is a serious weakness for such a small Mafia team. I feel that Launderer and Fighter kind of have to both exist, not only to act as a check on the other role's power, but if they're not both in the game, the whole confusing "in play" rule is almost worthless.

Given those, The Saboteur, while interesting, seems like it's the most likely to go.

shivam
11-29-2010, 11:07 PM
except that we know for a fact that alpha promised a role blocker in this game when he announced it. it would be odd for them not to have a saboteur given that information.

Loki
11-29-2010, 11:31 PM
The Lawyer can inspect kinda.

Loki
11-29-2010, 11:33 PM
Could a Mafia member have two roles? It seems unlikely, but I could see the Godfather also being one of the other three.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 03:22 AM
oft favorite meaning every fucking mafia game we play, in aggregate, not just this one.

that said, way to bandwagon hop there, luana. I'm thinking we need to pay very close attention to John's accuser list, cause that's smelling like criminality to me.

THIS

botticus
11-30-2010, 04:49 AM
Could a Mafia member have two roles? It seems unlikely, but I could see the Godfather also being one of the other three.

Characters are assigned a singular role in the rules, and the roles listed "may" be in play. So I guess it depends on how literal you want to read that.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 06:00 AM
I honestly had nothing to contribute of worth other than "uh, I don't think any of you are telling the truth", which was why I was trying to figure things out. Then I noticed this:



Was it really the oft-favored topic? I don't know if you can say that, since all shivam asked was who wasn't talking, and only here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912673&postcount=92) has someone mentioned the vote count (fun fact: that's you). I'm not counting the original Who's Talking screenshot (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912633&postcount=81) you posted, because that wasn't necessarily a vote count, and only after you mentioned it twice did someone actually reference it.

Good job in making yourself look shadier than Loki, dude! I accuse JohnB.

I do hope you retract your vote for me if your only premise was a misunderstanding. You've played Mafia games before, and I'm sure you're familiar with the idea that the closer it gets to the end of the day the more the discussion about who hasn't voted yet has picked up. This occurs in basically every mafia game ever, and was what I was alluding to. Sheesh.

dwolfe
11-30-2010, 06:56 AM
One more suggestion for Day 1, guys:

How should the potential Capcom roles best be used?

This is a much safer discussion than talking about Mafia roles, as we won't give them any ideas. But it might give people with roles some advice to follow (i.e., if we'd talked about the Avenger at length, maybe Loki wouldn't have claimed the role publicly).

Let's talk about this to prevent future mishaps on the Capcom side, unless you think this gives the Mafia too much information; just because ideas are discussed doesn't mean the role players will listen.

botticus
11-30-2010, 09:59 AM
Aside from the Avenger, I'm not really seeing much that could be discussed in terms of strategy. Obviously the Lawyer, Grievers, and Tracker will act on whoever they think is best and are probably left to their own devices.

It could be suggested that the Fighter consider acting when we have two really good lynch options, otherwise I like having someone out there with immunity.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 10:15 AM
I refuse to talk about roles, again, for the same reason I have before; dictating the way roles should be used allows Mafia to predict their use and capitalize upon it.

If you have a role, understand it. That's all the advice we ought to give.

We don't need inspectors. There are four bad guys out there. Two of them, potentially, inspect clean. We can't lean on that crutch. If we end up with a role with inspector power that's fine, but we can't count on it, and we don't need it.

Here's a thing. We can almost verify Loki's role.

If Loki is the Avenger, he has protection from stalemates.

If we can achieve a tie between Loki and some other player, and Loki dies, guess what? He wasn't the Avenger, and we don't have to worry about reprisal.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 10:30 AM
The only drawback to your plan, Byron, is that I believe some of the Capcom regulars, as Spine claims to be, have protection from stalemates as well. I'd imagine these mutual protections would cancel each other, and then we'd be back at random chance again.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 10:33 AM
Good spot, JohnB; I didn't catch that part. It's been a long couple of days.

Loki cannot reliably be verified against other players, then.

botticus
11-30-2010, 11:18 AM
Byron, if you don't want to talk about roles, would you rather talk about your Loki accusation?

Luana
11-30-2010, 11:34 AM
I do hope you retract your vote for me if your only premise was a misunderstanding. You've played Mafia games before, and I'm sure you're familiar with the idea that the closer it gets to the end of the day the more the discussion about who hasn't voted yet has picked up. This occurs in basically every mafia game ever, and was what I was alluding to. Sheesh.

While it may have been a misunderstanding (I've played one Mafia game before, and half-heartedly at that because of life stresses), I would only be retracting my vote in order to not vote for anyone else, so let me go ahead and think aloud about who stands out.

shivam is acting the same way he did last game, which he was innocent in. spineshark has claimed to be a regular in the hopes of having people out their characters, I guess? JohnB is loud, Loki's claimed Avenger, and all Byron seems to be guilty of is mistrust (which we should all be guilty of, because this is Mafia). I think we've covered all of the accused here, yes?

If I switch my vote, someone's going to scream bandwagon, so I'm not going to worry about it. I will drop my accusation of JohnB for now, though, and just put this out there: if we're getting down to the wire and we've got a tie with Loki as one of the frontrunners, I'd be likely to vote for him in order to both break the stalemate and such. I mean, yes, we would risk the chance of losing two innocents (because yes, I am), but it also seems that there will be this sense of dread hanging over us, especially if he's lying.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 11:54 AM
Hey Merus and Alpha, I've got a rules question: The Capcom Fighter has immunity from KOs, right? Does that mean that he's immune to the Avenger's revenge kill? Because the rules define that as a KO. Or does his immunity only work at night?

What I'm getting at is that if people really did want to kill Loki, we could just have the Fighter be the last person to vote for him. That way there would be no risk of losing an innocent. Given my newbie status, I don't know if this is actually a good plan or not, but it might be worth discussing.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 11:55 AM
I'm personally still voting for JohnB, though. I still believe Loki; I'm just putting out an idea for those of you that don't believe him.

botticus
11-30-2010, 12:02 PM
Hey Merus and Alpha, I've got a rules question: The Capcom Fighter has immunity from KOs, right? Does that mean that he's immune to the Avenger's revenge kill? Because the rules define that as a KO. Or does his immunity only work at night?

What I'm getting at is that if people really did want to kill Loki, we could just have the Fighter be the last person to vote for him. That way there would be no risk of losing an innocent. Given my newbie status, I don't know if this is actually a good plan or not, but it might be worth discussing.
Assuming that is what the rules allow, worst case is we lose our Avenger, and confirm the Fighter for Mafia consumption. I'm not sure I like that trade-off.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Okay. The day is winding down, and goddammit, I have people voting for me. I want to address that while it's still early enough to make a difference, since shit is going down tonight one way or another.

I'd like to address my high post count. I have been fortunate to have rotations where work is lighter than usual on Mondays and Tuesdays and I have open internet access. I have for damn sure been Excited For Mafia Times since we've had, what, a month layover inbetween M7 and M8? I'M EXCITED TO BE PLAYING, FOLKS! And in that excitement I've had the opportunity to post often, so I've taken advantage of it.

Perhaps posting this often is not exactly a "finesse" game. Byron seems to be much more artful than I in that regard. He uses few words to say a great deal. I'm not like that. My game is not like that.

For you folks who have voted for me - Javex, Loki, Karzac. I ask you to consider my playstyle. I've been loud, I've been vulgar, I've been tenacious. Is that not what pissed off Nodal in M6 after my reveal as Inspector? Isn't that what I was like in M5 (where I was a Townie), and M7 (where I was also a Townie and got nightkilled on Night 1)?

I have a playstyle that is very dangerous to use if I'm a Mafia (or in this game, Secret Boss). The only time I've deviated from this is when I had a role of importance, such as early M6, because I was the goddamn inspector and I couldn't know that we wouldn't need that role as much because we had Byron and many other power roles. In early M6 I played quiet, and dumb, and then made intentionally stupid arguments with dtsund to attract a little bit of attention - enough to keep the mafia off my back and me alive for our town. It worked.

I ask you guys who are voting for me- is my M8 appearance any different? I have no major Capcom role to speak of (though I admit I am awesome, and for my Town I bring that to the table), and so I can play my honest balls-to-the-wall attitude. If you think that that's suspicious, then fine, vote for me, but I feel my best defense is that my mind has been an open book for you to read, because I've posted damn near any idea I've thought about.

As for the picture of the post counts, (http://toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912633&postcount=81) or my statement about having moved on to those who haven't voted (http://toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912732&postcount=96)? I want to show that in good faith I was dropping my back and forth debate with Loki, which clearly wasn't breaking any new ground at that point and was tiring out (and perhaps distracting?) the town. (http://toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912671&postcount=91) I'm a team player. I do not want to hurt my team.

tl;dr: I feel I have at least done enough to benefit the Town that I deserve to make it through the Day, and hopefully into the next. I'm asking all of you to consider if there is someone in the other 15 of you who has not done enough to help the Town cause to deserve that.

shivam
11-30-2010, 12:07 PM
also, it's a bit of a drag to have GMs that are on opposite sides of the world, who are in night cycle while the rest of us are in day. Not that it's a bad thing or anything, but just that i wish at least one of em was in the western hemisphere.

Alpha Werewolf
11-30-2010, 12:13 PM
also, it's a bit of a drag to have GMs that are on opposite sides of the world, who are in night cycle while the rest of us are in day. Not that it's a bad thing or anything, but just that i wish at least one of em was in the western hemisphere.

Merus and I have decided to not answer questions to which the answer is either A. blindingly obvious or B. already posted in either the main thread or the game thread.

Adam
11-30-2010, 12:13 PM
Loki's days are numbered whether or not he really is the Avenger. I think he is, so I won't vote for him.

I think Spineshark's role is too weird for him to have thought of on the fly. I think he's legit.

JohnB is being JohnB. You might want to kill him for that, but I honestly think he could be any role in the game would act the same.

I vote for Paul because he should know better.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 12:14 PM
Assuming that is what the rules allow, worst case is we lose our Avenger, and confirm the Fighter for Mafia consumption. I'm not sure I like that trade-off.

The Fighter is immune to mafia hits, but I suppose they could kill him through other means. I'll concede the point then.

John, your argument is pretty convincing. I'm still not totally swayed though. There doesn't seem to me to be a better candidate for lynching.

shivam
11-30-2010, 12:43 PM
the way i read it, the fighter's immune to everything but a lynching, except when he uses his power.

I just dont know if it's a good idea to trade immunity to kill another townie, especially since it would be a net loss of a townie and power role.

botticus
11-30-2010, 12:47 PM
JohnB: 3
Loki
Karzac
Javex
Luana

spineshark: 3
shivam
kaisel
namelessentity

Loki: 2
Byron
JohnB

Byron: 2
dwolfe
botticus

shivam: 1
Umby

Paul le Fou: 1
Adam

Not yet voted:
Luana
Paul le Fou
SDMX
spineshark

13.5 hours remaining.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 12:47 PM
the way i read it, the fighter's immune to everything but a lynching, except when he uses his power.

I just dont know if it's a good idea to trade immunity to kill another townie, especially since it would be a net loss of a townie and power role.

I think you misunderstood what I meant, but it wasn't a good idea anyway, so I'm going to leave it at that.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 01:31 PM
John, your argument is pretty convincing. I'm still not totally swayed though. There doesn't seem to me to be a better candidate for lynching.

Well, can I ask you why you find me more suspicious, or put another way- more harmful to the Town- than those people who haven't voted at all yet?

Karzac
11-30-2010, 01:39 PM
Well, can I ask you why you find me more suspicious, or put another way- more harmful to the Town- than those people who haven't voted at all yet?

I just don't think not talking is a reason for suspicion, at least not on Day One. There are a million reasons for why they may not have posted yet. If they don't talk tomorrow, I'll have more reason for suspicion.

Adam
11-30-2010, 01:45 PM
I just don't think not talking is a reason for suspicion, at least not on Day One. There are a million reasons for why they may not have posted yet. If they don't talk tomorrow, I'll have more reason for suspicion.

1. They're Mafia, and don't want to say anything before they have a chance to get together with their teammates.

2. They have nothing to say, and probably shouldn't have signed up for Mafia.

3. Life got in the way, so they should have asked the mods to remove them from the game/replace them with Dizzy.

4. Sorry a creepy-ass centipede chewed through their internet.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 01:46 PM
1. They're Mafia, and don't want to say anything before they have a chance to get together with their teammates.

2. They have nothing to say, and probably shouldn't have signed up for Mafia.

3. Life got in the way, so they should have asked the mods to remove them from the game/replace them with Dizzy.

4. Sorry a creepy-ass centipede chewed through their internet.

Exactly. Tomorrow it will be clearer which of those reasons is actually true.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 01:50 PM
Tomorrow will be Night 1 and then it will be too late.

kaisel
11-30-2010, 01:56 PM
I just don't think not talking is a reason for suspicion, at least not on Day One. There are a million reasons for why they may not have posted yet. If they don't talk tomorrow, I'll have more reason for suspicion.

There's a difference between not talking, and not voting. Voting is the only reliable record we have for people, who they voted for doesn't change, you can't lie about it and not get caught.

There's still time left in the day though, so I'm not too worried yet, just something to be aware of.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 01:56 PM
Tomorrow will be Night 1 and then it will be too late.

I mean tomorrow in game terms. We will have more information then and will be more able to determine was going on with the quiet people.

Luana
11-30-2010, 01:57 PM
I vote for Paul because he should know better.

Okay, well I'm one of people who hasn't voted yet. Tell me why I should vote for Paul and not for you for doing what looks like a general throw-away vote things just to say that they've voted and throw suspicion off of themselves.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 01:58 PM
Also, what time exactly does Day One end? I'm just asking because I'm going out soon, so I want to know if this is my last chance for decision-making or not.

botticus
11-30-2010, 02:03 PM
I just don't think not talking is a reason for suspicion, at least not on Day One. There are a million reasons for why they may not have posted yet. If they don't talk tomorrow, I'll have more reason for suspicion.

When Day 1 consists of 72 hours, there aren't that many reasons that make them more useful to the town alive than dead.

And on Day 2 there will be 1-3 fewer Capcomites.

shivam
11-30-2010, 02:05 PM
1-3 fewer? how do you figure?
a lynch, a hit, and a conversion?

Karzac
11-30-2010, 02:07 PM
1-3 fewer? how do you figure?
a lynch, a hit, and a conversion?

A lynch, a hit and a secret boss KO.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 02:07 PM
Also, what time exactly does Day One end? I'm just asking because I'm going out soon, so I want to know if this is my last chance for decision-making or not.

I've heard 2AM, but I have no idea if that's EST or PST.

If you are going to be leaving the thread, then I really feel I have to ask you for clarification one more time:

I mean tomorrow in game terms. We will have more information then and will be more able to determine was going on with the quiet people.

You really believe that I've been more harmful to the Town (and thus lynch-worthy) than people who haven't voted yet? Is there any more proof you're using besides your gut?

botticus
11-30-2010, 02:09 PM
Or even 4 if all of the above and the Avenger is lynched.

And unless Merus says otherwise (which I imagine it's too late to), day ends at 5:15am EST, or 12 hours from now.

Adam
11-30-2010, 02:11 PM
Okay, well I'm one of people who hasn't voted yet. Tell me why I should vote for Paul and not for you for doing what looks like a general throw-away vote things just to say that they've voted and throw suspicion off of themselves.

Because Paul has only posted once, and he should know better than to sit there and do absolutely nothing in a Mafia game. I am not voting for SDMX because I'm interested in seeing how he plays if allowed to survive more than one day.

And actually, you did vote. But you took it back. I included that in my calculations, so could you please include it in your calculations of my calculations as well? That being said...

if we're getting down to the wire and we've got a tie with Loki as one of the frontrunners, I'd be likely to vote for him in order to both break the stalemate and such.

If you're sure about this, how about you vote for Loki now, and every time it looks like there might be a stalemate, you retract and revote for him?

Actually, forget it. HEY BYRON SAME DEAL EXCEPT WITH YOU.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 02:15 PM
Byron, if you don't want to talk about roles, would you rather talk about your Loki accusation?

Sure.

There's a good chance we'll have to deal with Loki one way or another, since the role he's called is one the Mafia aren't going to confirm, and one the real Avenger might not call out (and we might have more than one Avenger!) so we're not getting any help from that quarter.

If and when we deal with Loki, I sure as hell don't want to be the last one to accuse him. But I don't think he's in the clear, and I can't be certain he's lying. The only way to tell is to shake the tree.

Chances are poor that I'll end any day on a Loki-vote, though I'll probably start every day off with one.

Spineshark's role does not prevent him/her from being Mafia; Capcom kids can be on the mafia side, and the Secret Best^H^H^H^H Boss is GIVEN a faux Capcom role by the gamemasters, so "making it up on the fly" might not even be a consideration in this case. And if, like Loki, revealing our characters might actually expose our power roles - if the characters, like the aforementioned Dan Hibiki, are tied to thematic roles - then what Spiney has asked us to do is play this game open-handed. We CANNOT do that when we are at risk of losing up to four players per night.

I retract my vote for Loki

I vote for Adam.

SDMX
11-30-2010, 02:16 PM
Because Paul has only posted once, and he should know better than to sit there and do absolutely nothing in a Mafia game.

I'm dead on this line of thinking, right up to throwing in an accusation if I thought it could go far enough. It's certainly going to keep me watching Paul closely the next few hours.

For the moment though, enough red flags have been thrown up for me to feel confident in saying I accuse Spineshark.

Adam
11-30-2010, 02:28 PM
Chances are poor that I'll end any day on a Loki-vote, though I'll probably start every day off with one.

Then we're going to have this hanging over our heads every day? I understand the logic, but why not just bring up Loki the next time you think it really needs to be done?

Spineshark's role does not prevent him/her from being Mafia;

Spineshark's character does not prevent him from being Mafia. Spineshark's role does, assuming they haven't given him two powers/replaced one of the useful Mafia roles with "can die twice".

Capcom kids can be on the mafia side, and the Secret Best^H^H^H^H Boss is GIVEN a faux Capcom role by the gamemasters, so "making it up on the fly" might not even be a consideration in this case.

That's a decent point. I didn't consider whether the GMs would have given the Secret Boss' alibi its own fake power.


I retract my vote for Loki

I vote for Adam.


Well, at least now I know how strongly you feel about Loki.

Karzac
11-30-2010, 02:29 PM
You really believe that I've been more harmful to the Town (and thus lynch-worthy) than people who haven't voted yet? Is there any more proof you're using besides your gut?

I don't have much proof, but this is the first day: nobody really has any proof other than their gut. You seemed to be stirring the pot, trying to get rid of a potential threat and that seems like secret boss behaviour to me. There's a good chance I'm completely wrong about it, but an equal chance that I'd be completely wrong about somebody else. So why change my mind now?

JohnB
11-30-2010, 02:31 PM
There's a good chance I'm completely wrong about it, but an equal chance that I'd be completely wrong about somebody else. So why change my mind now?

Well, to be frank I was hoping to convince you of the idea that persons who haven't voted are at least more suspicious than anything I've done today [which is true, dammit], and get you to change your vote.

Merus
11-30-2010, 02:35 PM
Ooh, a pot? I had a hot pot last night. It was delicious.

Oh, oh, yes, the round will finish in less than 12 hours.

Loki: 1
Byron
JohnB

Byron: 2
dwolfe
botticus

JohnB: 3
Loki
Karzac
Javex
Luana

spineshark: 4
shivam
kaisel
namelessentity
SDMX

Paul le Fou: 1
Adam

Adam: 1
Byron

shivam: 1
Umby

Umby
11-30-2010, 03:10 PM
You forgot about my vote for Shivam. More stuff later.

Luana
11-30-2010, 03:53 PM
Because Paul has only posted once, and he should know better than to sit there and do absolutely nothing in a Mafia game. I am not voting for SDMX because I'm interested in seeing how he plays if allowed to survive more than one day.

And actually, you did vote. But you took it back. I included that in my calculations, so could you please include it in your calculations of my calculations as well? That being said...

Oh, you see, I don't know anything about people's past Mafia habits, so I wasn't sure if this was a throwaway vote or a real observation. The tone seemed almost joke-like, even though this is life-and-death Mafia business.

If you're sure about this, how about you vote for Loki now, and every time it looks like there might be a stalemate, you retract and revote for him?

I honestly would vote for Loki if it were to break a tie and potentially sacrifice myself, but right now I'm feeling a lot more suspicious of Byron and spineshark than anyone else. Of the two, I've done a lot of thinking, and realized that spine's "reveal" is pretty shady, considering that we can't confirm anything about it (unless the Tracker watches him tonight and sees some shady dealings goin' on). Byron's vote for Adam seems like a good ruse vote, and honestly? I'd rather see if we can get spine watched than Byron.

I accuse Byron.

namelessentity
11-30-2010, 04:32 PM
I'm dead on this line of thinking, right up to throwing in an accusation if I thought it could go far enough. It's certainly going to keep me watching Paul closely the next few hours.

For the moment though, enough red flags have been thrown up for me to feel confident in saying I accuse Spineshark.

Care to reveal these flags and confident feelings, or is this just one of those "I didn't mean it, I swear" votes so if spine turns up innocent you can claim you didn't really want to vote for him?

spineshark
11-30-2010, 04:55 PM
"Why did you..."
Because if I didn't, somebody would go "well why didn't you?" Everything you do or don't do is going to piss somebody off. That's the game. Working as intended. And judging by the rest of the responses, if I'd waited, I'd still be waiting. The fact that I did it is the only thing that's gotten people talking about it. Stupid move? Yeah. Too late!

The problem is, as always, that people are afraid of being put on the spot. For obvious reasons. But that's too bad. Once again, people are going to get in your face. No way around it. As always, I'm not afraid to die, and I have nothing particularly to defend myself. But if I get lynched I think y'all might want to think a little more about what little I've said.

Otherwise, I guess I'm gonna go and accuse Byron. Mostly self-preservation, but I'm just not seeing a lot coming out of his end. Even if I sort of agree with some of it.

One more thing though...I honestly think protection is pretty unreliable, but a Day 1 Objection could go a long way. I'd rather it wasn't used on me though, since there's really no real point in keeping me alive.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 05:13 PM
In case I get lynched/nightkilled...

Trust List (Good for Day 1 actions only)
1) Byron - yeah, he's got a few votes, but I trust him right now. Why? Because in M5 when he was a dirty rat bastard he was helpful, but not helpful. His dissection of nameless's bullshit here (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=50) and http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=52 are vintage M6 Byron, where he was a tiny god. If he's not a Capcom, he's the Secret Boss, and that would scare me shitless. However, for today, I'm pretty sure he's innocent.

2) Paul - But only for today. After that all bets are off. Paul said in the voting thread that the weekend was a shitty time for him to start playing, and so I believe that Real Life has prevented him from more participation. After today, though, seriously dude. Help or die plz.

Suspicion List

1) Nameless - What the fuck, man (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912260&postcount=49). Shades of guilty-as-shit Adam from M6. Using other people's words as misdirection? Classic Mafia move. Why hasn't he gotten more shit for this from people other than Byron...?

2) Loki - I've already explained this.

3) SDMX - Look, I know this is his second game, but my gut detects a different flavor/feel to his posts. It's very possible he's a new Evil power role and doesn't know how to play it yet, so he's being very certain to not stir up any trouble. WATCH THIS GUY.

shivam
11-30-2010, 05:17 PM
wow. reading those three nameless posts in a row is pretty fucking shifty. Good catch John.

Actually, that's bullshit enough to make me hold off on spine for today.
Unvote Spineshark
Vote Namelessentity

It's exactly the behaviour that got adam hung by his toes in 6.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 05:18 PM
I honestly would vote for Loki if it were to break a tie and potentially sacrifice myself, but right now I'm feeling a lot more suspicious of Byron and spineshark than anyone else. Of the two, I've done a lot of thinking, and realized that spine's "reveal" is pretty shady, considering that we can't confirm anything about it (unless the Tracker watches him tonight and sees some shady dealings goin' on). Byron's vote for Adam seems like a good ruse vote

I'm curious as to what you think of Adam's throwaway vote for Paul le Fou, someone who isn't really even around to address a vote that could mount his way.

Luana
11-30-2010, 05:44 PM
I'm curious as to what you think of Adam's throwaway vote for Paul le Fou, someone who isn't really even around to address a vote that could mount his way.

I called him out on it, and while I wasn't quite satisfied, I still felt worse about you and spine. However, damn, that namelessentity stuff has got me wondering. I don't want to be a GM's nightmare and change my vote a million times, but you know what? I'm distracted, I'm confused, and I'm sick, and it's their job to keep up with me.

Also, what's the time difference between here (I'm on the West Coast) and Japan, anyway? I know that Paul's going to be on a completely different schedule than us and I didn't even think about how that's going to affect conversation and whatnot with him. That's something to think about, surely.

I'm very wary of trying to think of what someone would and wouldn't do in a game if they were Mafia. I mean, look at what happened in M7: Libra -- the Mafia preyed on the fact that they couldn't ever be so loud and obvious, and yet they were. I'm also trying to take my time and figure out connections, watch little things here and there, but it's hard to do so without missing things. (dizziness! it's a side effect!)

... I need an hour or so to think about this, but I'd really like to hear namelessentity's thoughts on getting a vote. I'm not voting for Paul, giving him the benefit of the doubt due to the time difference, and I don't really want to lynch spine, but Adam and nameless are looking pretty shifty. Oh, and you, but I guess part of my mistrust is because everyone looks to you as the Mafia God and I don't want that to bite us in the ass later on if you're really the Secret Boss or Mafia.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 06:00 PM
I'm not Secret Bost or Mafia, but that's a worthless piece of assurance.

I'm also not a Mafia God and people can stop saying that. I would reassure you, but I'm out of completely innocent people to publicly execute on Day 1 to prove my bona fides.

The relative volume of posters has nothing to do with Mafiism at all. I was loud Mafia, and plenty of quiet people have been perfectly innocent. There is no real point in accusing people who are quiet, ESPECIALLY when they're quiet because they can't be here today, and TOLD us so. I have always accused based upon the way people say things, and not because of the things people say or how much they say. It's worked pretty well so far.

I am now the execution frontrunner, so let's say a couple of things.

First, don't lynch me.

"But Byron, you're awesome and you could be a bad guy!"

I couldn't agree more. I totally could be. I'm not, but it's possible. And I am willing to believe there is exactly one mafioso amongst the people voting for me right now, for basically the same reason everyone else seems to be voting for me: because it's a good idea to get me out of the game.

Second: Suspicions, in case I die this evening and our (possible) Lawyer doesn't see fit to save my filthy Mafia neck. I have called out Nameless and Adam. I think either Adam or SDMX is Mafia, but probably not both. I haven't heard enough from SDMX to know.

If spineshark is mafia, shivam is also mafia. Shivam may be mafia anyway, since he made it possible to hang me instead of spineshark and I think based on this undercurrent of "Byron is dangerous" that MAYBE I might be higher kill-priority. Shivam also pulled off of a pretty decent lynch candidate to vote for someone with no votes against him at the eleventh hour.

I think JohnB is in the clear, but that's just intuition speaking.

I'm still not quite sure why Luana is trying to crucify me (presumably for voting for Loki, and not much else, since I haven't done much else) while vocally supporting the idea that she would put her neck on the line to tie-break a Loki-lynch.

Javex
11-30-2010, 06:07 PM
For you folks who have voted for me - Javex, Loki, Karzac. I ask you to consider my playstyle. I've been loud, I've been vulgar, I've been tenacious. Is that not what pissed off Nodal in M6 after my reveal as Inspector? Isn't that what I was like in M5 (where I was a Townie), and M7 (where I was also a Townie and got nightkilled on Night 1)?

There's no denying this. I don't think this is in YOUR or anyone's favor though. In fact, it's an excellent way for someone who's never been Mafia to continue to say "HEY, I"M NOT MAFIA, BECAUSE I'M NOT ACTING DIFFERENT."

I have a playstyle that is very dangerous to use if I'm a Mafia (or in this game, Secret Boss).

And this seals it for me. "Would the Mafia or Secret Boss act this craaaazy?" Probably not, unless they're doing it JUST to call themselves out on it.

It's the same problem I had with Loki until Adam pointed out that even if he WANTED us to inspect him, we couldn't. This defense, to me, reeks of the same concept in reverse - don't look at me! I'm just being myself!

I don't buy it. I DO buy that you've put up some great information today, but this information, as with any and all information put forward in these games, must be looked at with a careful eye.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, if you die and turn up innocent, I'm going to be looked at as potential Mafia or Secret Boss. To which I'll have to respond - well that's just SILLY folks, I'm was just being me! Would the Mafia/Secret Boss act so CRAAAAAZY?

Would you buy it?

namelessentity
11-30-2010, 06:09 PM
... I need an hour or so to think about this, but I'd really like to hear namelessentity's thoughts on getting a vote.

I don't know about you guys, but the first two links of JohnB's go to the same post for me. I don't know if that is accidental or meant for emphasis

Firstly, I stand by the statement that it would totally be in the Secret Bosses best interest to try and convince us to lynch the avenger so he doesn't have to. It was early in the game and JohnB seemed like he was trying to get us to do his dirty work.

I have since pointed out that I don't think JohnB is the Secret Boss and haven't really tried to string him up since. I was pointing out a theory, it's what I do, I theorize, and yes it has gotten me killed in previous games (though it was by the mafia because they thought I was a role asking for advice)

JohnB
11-30-2010, 06:29 PM
I don't know about you guys, but the first two links of JohnB's go to the same post for me. I don't know if that is accidental or meant for emphasis

Accidental. The posts I meant to highlight are this (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=50) and this (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912282&postcount=52).

Thanks for being helpful. You're sucking up to me a bit, too, now that I called you out. Yet you still reek of something... guilt?

JohnB
11-30-2010, 06:32 PM
There's no denying this. I don't think this is in YOUR or anyone's favor though. In fact, it's an excellent way for someone who's never been Mafia to continue to say "HEY, I"M NOT MAFIA, BECAUSE I'M NOT ACTING DIFFERENT."

And this seals it for me. "Would the Mafia or Secret Boss act this craaaazy?" Probably not, unless they're doing it JUST to call themselves out on it.

It's the same problem I had with Loki until Adam pointed out that even if he WANTED us to inspect him, we couldn't. This defense, to me, reeks of the same concept in reverse - don't look at me! I'm just being myself!

I don't buy it. I DO buy that you've put up some great information today, but this information, as with any and all information put forward in these games, must be looked at with a careful eye.

Not to put too fine of a point on it, if you die and turn up innocent, I'm going to be looked at as potential Mafia or Secret Boss. To which I'll have to respond - well that's just SILLY folks, I'm was just being me! Would the Mafia/Secret Boss act so CRAAAAAZY?

Would you buy it?

Smart man. I respect your answer. You're wrong, natch, but I respect it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Karzac - Do you really believe that I've been more harmful to the Town (and thus lynch-worthy) than people who haven't voted yet?

namelessentity
11-30-2010, 06:33 PM
I was pointing it out more to the fact that shivam said he read three, but there were only two

Javex
11-30-2010, 06:37 PM
I'll ask you the same question I asked Karzac - Do you really believe that I've been more harmful to the Town (and thus lynch-worthy) than people who haven't voted yet?

No.

But I'm willing to give them until the end of the day. I'm holding my vote on your until 1) Somebody EPICLY fucks up or 2) It's 30 minutes to the end of the day and somebody has withheld a vote.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 06:38 PM
If spineshark is mafia, shivam is also mafia. Shivam may be mafia anyway, since he made it possible to hang me instead of spineshark and I think based on this undercurrent of "Byron is dangerous" that MAYBE I might be higher kill-priority. Shivam also pulled off of a pretty decent lynch candidate to vote for someone with no votes against him at the eleventh hour.

I saw that too. I came to a similar conclusion. I was hoping someone other than you would point it out, but, them's the breaks.

Here is the post in question. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=913476&postcount=166)

Add Shivam as Number 4 to my Suspects list. If I die I will be exonerated and you fuckers better pay attention.

botticus
11-30-2010, 06:39 PM
Smart man. I respect your answer. You're wrong, natch, but I respect it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Karzac - Do you really believe that I've been more harmful to the Town (and thus lynch-worthy) than people who haven't voted yet?

Unfortunately at this point I think the only person who hasn't voted is Paul, and Byron will apparently argue with you on that point.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 06:42 PM
Unfortunately at this point I think the only person who hasn't voted is Paul, and Byron will apparently argue with you on that point.

I feel like I was the first to point out that Paul wasn't much available today (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=913475&postcount=165), so, if everyone else has voted then that's that, then.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 06:46 PM
Thank you for expressing my opinion, botticus.

Or at least framing it in such a way as to make me look bad. Man, if only I had my whiskey, I would know what to say in regards to that.

Oh, right. Please don't do that again.

I don't think someone who doesn't vote is worth lynching. Watching, but not lynching. Especially when, as has been made clear time and again, that person is not actually able to play the game today.

Real life commitments are not a sign of mafiahood; twisting other people's opinions tends to be.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 06:47 PM
Oh, and while I'm at it,

I retract my accusation of Adam

I accuse Spineshark.

Anybody who can count should be able to guess why.

Javex
11-30-2010, 06:48 PM
Real life commitments are not a sign of mafiahood.

What if Paul's on a hit right now, Byron?! WHAT WILL YOU SAY THEN?!

(No, seriously, you have a legitimate point, even if you could possibly be a mafioso.)

Adam
11-30-2010, 06:50 PM
Paul said in the voting thread that the weekend was a shitty time for him to start playing

He did? BOOOOOOOOOOOO. Stupid metagame. I retract my vote for Paul

I have been thinking of voting for Nameless ever since he pulled his "Honorable Brickroad say fronting roles is for cheeseburgers" act, but now that voting for nameless is high train to suspicionville, I'm less tempted.

Waaaaait...

I was pointing it out more to the fact that shivam said he read three, but there were only two

There were only two unique links, weren't there? Far be it from me to call out Shivam for not reading again, but c'mon, that's just sad.

I vote for Shivam and am now somewhat suspicious of spineshark.

Loki
11-30-2010, 06:56 PM
Man, JohnB, for all your passionate defense I still can't trust you. You ask if you've done anything worse for the town than people who haven't voted, but you discussed mafia strategy out in the open. If you are the secret boss you essentially told the Saboteur to target me tonight, so you could perform the KO. Pretty savvy. Even if you're not, you posting what the Mafia's options are was little to no help to the town and only helped laid things out for them. That's very hurtful in my eyes.

If I do die tonight due to a Saboteur/KO than I can't help but blame you. Would the Mafia come up on with the strategy on their own? Probably! But we can never know for sure. Because you were the first to suggest it, before the Mafia even had an opportunity to talk to each other, the blame falls on you.

I just can't justify to myself voting for anyone else.

JohnB
11-30-2010, 07:00 PM
Man, JohnB, for all your passionate defense I still can't trust you. You ask if you've done anything worse for the town than people who haven't voted, but you discussed mafia strategy out in the open. If you are the secret boss you essentially told the Saboteur to target me tonight, so you could perform the KO. Pretty savvy. Even if you're not, you posting what the Mafia's options are was little to no help to the town and only helped laid things out for them. That's very hurtful in my eyes.

If I do die tonight due to a Saboteur/KO than I can't help but blame you. Would the Mafia come up on with the strategy on their own? Probably! But we can never know for sure. Because you were the first to suggest it, before the Mafia even had an opportunity to talk to each other, the blame falls on you.

I just can't justify to myself voting for anyone else.

Okay. Perhaps mistakes were made on both sides. Still, I will only retract my vote for you to save my own ass or the asses of people on my trust list for today.

botticus
11-30-2010, 07:04 PM
Thank you for expressing my opinion, botticus.

Or at least framing it in such a way as to make me look bad. Man, if only I had my whiskey, I would know what to say in regards to that.

Oh, right. Please don't do that again.

Man, don't do that while I'm crafting my post retracting my accusation of you. Look, if Paul has said specifically he's not here today, that's fine, but I haven't read it. It's now Wednesday Japan-time, so weekend business seems past. I'm not voting for him because of it, because Real Life does happen, but I don't otherwise see why his lack of activity should be disregarded. He was a good partner in M7, so I'm hoping he can contribute (if he's a good guy).

ANYWAY, I will not let petty silliness derail my Mafiaing.

------

Since I'm on the list that has Byron headed [now tied] for the gallows, let's review. I put him up because of an unsupported accusation, which he (eventually) followed-up on. While I don't relish the thought of him starting off every day with a Loki accusation - if it didn't pick up steam now, I don't know what will have to change in later days to cause it to do so - I don't really have any other cause to want him dead today. Maybe tomorrow. I rescind my accusation of Byron.

I did not approve of spineshark's thought on reveals earlier, but I like shivam's switch off spineshark (condemning Byron) even less.

I accuse shivam.

spineshark
11-30-2010, 07:43 PM
I have a funny feeling about nameless, but I got that same feeling in M6 and reading M2whicheveroneitwas and it was totally wrong both of those times. But I'm not going to write it off as "oh that's just how he plays" since that's asking for trouble. I'd be fine seeing him go, and if we can get something started in his direction I would take it.

Byron: who's your character? Do you think you can win a tie? These are not threats (what do I have to threaten with?); I just want to know.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 08:00 PM
I will not play the game where I reveal my character, because if I end up being A Servbot, then that will help the Mafia narrow down where Ryu is, or whatever, and if I end up being Ryu then I'll be a target. I may not agree with Loki's immediate reveal play, but it was strong for him.

I'm also not going to say whether or not I break ties, because I don't want anyone's Secret Tie Lynch Swap strategy revolving around me.

You've already played your hand, and you're on the chopping block. Do you know if you break ties? Because if you don't, and you're hanging, we can at least confirm Loki in the meantime.

shivam
11-30-2010, 08:19 PM
Fine. I dont mind a spineshark kill. If it makes you guys happier then I recind my vote of nameless and vote for SPINESHARK.

I'm not a mafia. there were three posts linked in john's various posts.
one was an analysis of nameless posts from byron, and two were nameless posts.

that's three, by my count.

Spineshark is guilty as sin. Nameless can wait till tomorrow.

spineshark
11-30-2010, 08:23 PM
I'm not, but I'm going to bed. Have fun!

Paul le Fou
11-30-2010, 08:24 PM
I'M HERE I'M HERE SORRY! I saw another huge tray of champagne sitting around and, well, you know. Good lord didn't anyone

(I had 4 classes in a row this morning and no time to get on and check in until now, after lunch. A lot of that conversation happened in the middle of the night for me I think; For the record, it's now about 1:15 PM.)

I'm keeping a close eye on Byron, as he's already proven to be playing his same shifty multi-level trap-laying game as ever, but I'm willing to give him some more time to let it pan out.

Likewise, JohnB is high on my list for reasons we've all documented, but nothing strong enough to hang him up for now.

I don't necessarily see ~Suspicion~ from Nameless attributing things to Brickroad that Brickroad very well might say after all, but I'll pay him some mind.

Adam just shot up to the top of my list by voting for the only person I know to be innocent. Got my eyes on you, sucka.





I honestly don't see anything too strong this time, but I do know what gives us the easiest out. Spineshark's reveal is definitely suspicious, in addition to being low-risk; if he is indeed a plain old regular, he's offered us a lowest-risk option for the "inevitable" first-day innocent lynch. On the other hand, it's not actually a very safe move for a mafioso to make, considering he has little to gain from putting himself out there like that, and much to lose.


On the other other hand, if I'm counting right, it's close to a tie between Byron and Spineshark. I'd consider voting Byron to force a tie and examine this stalemate protection thing... but with the chance of random decision, we run the risk of not learning anything.* And when it comes down to it, I know which I'd rather see live another day and which I'd rather see swing. Also, since shivam's not about to catch up, that leaves me with little choice.

I accuse spineshark.


*GM question: if stalemates come down to a Stalemate Protection decision, do we find that out? To our eyes, is there any difference between a stalemate protection or a coin flip?

spineshark
11-30-2010, 08:25 PM
Out of the people who are killing me, the only one I have an opinion on is shivam. He's doing that thing where he flops around a lot before realizing he has no idea what's going on. Probably clean.

Paul le Fou
11-30-2010, 08:25 PM
Good lord didn't anyone bring any painkillers? Someone get me a drink, my head is killing me.

Paul le Fou
11-30-2010, 08:27 PM
Out of the people who are killing me, the only one I have an opinion on is shivam. He's doing that thing where he flops around a lot before realizing he has no idea what's going on. Probably clean.

Man now I'm glad we're killing you. This post will be very interesting in hindsight, whatever result comes up.

spineshark
11-30-2010, 08:30 PM
Don't be stupid. I'm a fucking dumbass. You won't learn anything unless you can convince people to start lying.

Merus
11-30-2010, 08:30 PM
if stalemates come down to a Stalemate Protection decision, do we find that out? To our eyes, is there any difference between a stalemate protection or a coin flip?

No. You will only learn the result.

The round will finish in less than 6 hours. Is that right, bailiff? Bailiff?

spineshark: 6
shivam
kaisel
namelessentity
SDMX
Byron
shivam
Paul le Fou

JohnB: 3
Loki
Karzac
Javex
Luana

shivam: 3
Umby
Adam
botticus

Byron: 2
dwolfe
botticus
Luana

Loki: 1
Byron
JohnB

Paul le Fou: 0
Adam

namelessentity: 0
shivam

Adam: 0
Byron

spineshark
11-30-2010, 08:31 PM
I am not lying, though I must confess I am so poor at it that I know you would not see any difference.

Umby
11-30-2010, 08:41 PM
Well, first of all, Shivam, I don't see anything wrong with you. I got the response I needed, for now, and I'm glad to see you're on top of the ball. I rescind my vote from Shivam

Really what that was for, though, was to see who would try to jump on the bandwagon, and I have a couple of Grade-A suckeroonies! Adam and botticus, what are the reasons you jumped on the Shivam wagon? I see very little, myself.

And if I had to rate my first two prime subjects right now, it'd be Namlessentity, then Spineshark. I'll vote Spineshark, too, even if it is a bandwagon. His post about being a Capcom regular just seems to mafia-like to me, just like the rest of his play.

botticus
11-30-2010, 08:49 PM
Really what that was for, though, was to see who would try to jump on the bandwagon, and I have a couple of Grade-A suckeroonies! Adam and botticus, what are the reasons you jumped on the Shivam wagon? I see very little, myself.
Hey, it wasn't easy to vote for the same person you did. I guess you can consider that bandwagoning, but I already stated my reasoning. By the way, you are a black pot.

I'm suspicious of spineshark (looks like this will be answered tonight) and my suspicion of Byron waned. Seeing shivam take spineshark off the chopping block while at the same time putting Byron up in his stead (without the voting record reflecting it) didn't sit right with me.

And now that spineshark is back in the lead anyway, he changes his vote back to appease us.

Umby
11-30-2010, 08:59 PM
Well, I could be a black pot, but I am a believer of putting my vote for the person I want to see talk and explain themselves at first, and later the person I want to lynch. I understand it wasn't easy to vote for Shivam, but at the same time, I think, right now, he's not looking that slippery. You could have voted that way to spread the votes around, you never know.

Kylie
11-30-2010, 09:31 PM
I think Spineshark's innocent.

I think this would be a good time to try and save Spineshark. Anyone else wanna try with me?

I retract my vote for Spineshark

I accuse Botticus.

And yes, I realize that if spineshark ISN'T innocent I'm painting myself. Whatevs.

Adam
11-30-2010, 09:31 PM
Sorry Umby, I'll put it all in one post so it's more obvious.

In case I get lynched/nightkilled...

Trust List (Good for Day 1 actions only)
1) Byron - yeah, he's got a few votes, but I trust him right now. Why? Because in M5 when he was a dirty rat bastard he was helpful, but not helpful. His dissection of nameless's bullshit here (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=50) and http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=52 are vintage M6 Byron, where he was a tiny god. If he's not a Capcom, he's the Secret Boss, and that would scare me shitless. However, for today, I'm pretty sure he's innocent.


1) Nameless - What the fuck, man (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912260&postcount=49). Shades of guilty-as-shit Adam from M6. Using other people's words as misdirection? Classic Mafia move. Why hasn't he gotten more shit for this from people other than Byron...?

Note: While there are three links here, two of them actually go to the same page, so John really only linked to two separate posts.


IN THE VERY NEXT POST:
wow. reading those three nameless posts in a row is pretty fucking shifty. Good catch John.

While I'll give him the out for calling them all nameless posts (they all involved nameless), I am not giving him an out for pretending he was able to use those "three posts" to realize that nameless is all shifty-eyed.


Shivam has this to say in his defense though:
I'm not a mafia. there were three posts linked in john's various posts.
one was an analysis of nameless posts from byron, and two were nameless posts.

that's three, by my count.

Well yeah, John did eventually post a correction and showed us what the third post was supposed to be. An hour after Shivam's post.

The kicker:

The two posts that were linked initially were one post from Byron, and one post from nameless. Given that shivam said that there was one analysis post from Byron and two from nameless, tell me who you think wrote the post in that last link.

Now click here (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912282&postcount=52) and tell me why you think Shivam's not lying.

Adam
11-30-2010, 09:33 PM
Sorry, to be clear, I got that last link from John's correction post quoted below:

Accidental. The posts I meant to highlight are this (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=50) and this (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912282&postcount=52)

Karzac
11-30-2010, 09:37 PM
You know what? I've already said that I don't have much of a good reason for sticking with my JohnB accusation. So here:

I retract my vote for JohnB

These shivam arguments are mighty convincing though. He flipped on his spine vote, flipped back to remove suspicion, possibly played the numbers to get Byron lynched and (either purposefully or not) mis-represented nameless's posts. That's enough for me.

I accuses shivam

And now I'm going to bed.

Adam
11-30-2010, 10:03 PM
HEY MERUS YOU MISSED SPINESHARK'S VOTE FOR BYRON

kaisel
11-30-2010, 10:03 PM
To be honest, seeing the bandwagon on spineshark is giving me some second thoughts, either all of us who voted for spineshark are innocent, and the mafia is hiding among the others (giving us a smaller pool to look through) if spineshark turns up guilty, or there's some mafia trying to throw us off the scent by offering one of their own.

On the other hand though, trying to save spineshark is a gutsy move, and one that would be advantageous if spineshark is a mafioso. Having 3 guys alive instead of just 2 is a huge boon toward the mafia, remember that was what we did in M7 when it looked like I was going to die Day 1 because recovering from that is really difficult.

I think I'm going to stick with spineshark, since I still don't see anyone that looks any more guilty, but I'll think about it till I go to sleep, see if something jumps out at me...

Adam
11-30-2010, 10:07 PM
Hey Byron, not telling you how to play the game or anything, but if you're really serious about saving Spineshark, you should really hop on the Shivam bandwagon. Don't worry about the bench seats, I lined them with all of Shivam's lies. It's comfy.

Current votes:

spineshark: 5
kaisel
namelessentity
SDMX
Shivam
Paul

shivam: 4
Umby
Adam
Botticus
Karzac

Byron: 3
dwolfe
Luana
Spineshark

JohnB: 3
Loki
Javex

Loki: 1
JohnB

Botticus: 1
Byron

Paul le Fou
11-30-2010, 10:13 PM
I think Spineshark's innocent.

I think this would be a good time to try and save Spineshark. Anyone else wanna try with me?

I retract my vote for Spineshark

Also, since shivam's not about to catch up, that leaves me with little choice.

OR IS HE? Now that it's not down to Spine v. Byron (was it ever? did Merus miss a Byron vote? I thought it was 3-4 at the moment when I voted, although I was working off old data) and the pressure is on spine vs. someone else a lot fishier, spine is no logner my preferable target.

I retract my accusation of Spineshark

I accuse shivam

At my current count that puts us 4-4 on shivam vs. spineshark (I think??). There's some non-zero chance they're already tied together as mafioso, so I don't think this is a terrible situation to be in. If he survives, I'll be keeping an eye on spineshark no matter how this turns out.

What I get from the shivam flub re: posts is that he's either suffering from bad foot-in-mouth and just didn't properly clarify what he meant by "Those three nameless posts," or he was trying to give the impression of reading without actually doing it. Neither is why I'm voting for him though; his vote switching at slightly-too-strategic times comes off as possibly opportunistic steering of the momentum. And possibly just plain floundering because he doesn't know what's going on, as spineshark said.

Umby
11-30-2010, 10:17 PM
It's not 4 to 4. Adam didn't account for my switch. I'm not completely sold on Shivam, myself. I like my chances better with Spineshark, but tomorrow my suspicion list is Namelessentity and Shivam, for sure.

Adam
11-30-2010, 10:31 PM
Goddamnit, that doesn't look bad at all :(

So right now it looks like that offer to Byron still stands:

spineshark: 5
kaisel
namelessentity
SDMX
Shivam
Umby

shivam: 4
Adam
Botticus
Karzac
Paul

Byron: 3
dwolfe
Luana
Spineshark

JohnB: 2 (made a mistake here, too)
Loki
Javex

Loki: 1
JohnB

Botticus: 1
Byron

Paul le Fou
11-30-2010, 10:32 PM
hahaha have fun counting these votes, GMs! suckers

Luana
11-30-2010, 10:34 PM
I don't think spineshark is necessarily guilty, and it's odd that shivam didn't catch that mistake (I did, but still found nameless shady and figured that everyone would have assumed there was some mistake since it was fairly easy to figure out what JohnB meant to say).

Since my gut feeling for spineshark is stronger than my distrust of Byron, I'm willing to save spine's ass for tonight. I hope our tracker is watching him, though.

I rescind my accusation of Byron and accuse shivam.

Luana
11-30-2010, 10:35 PM
Byron, I do have to ask, though: why botticus?

Kylie
11-30-2010, 11:11 PM
Because botticus is being very, very careful. He picked me early, for cross-examination and then accusation, but backed off just before shivam backed off spineshark (which put me on the scaffold). Botticus then accused shivam for trying to set me up to die, and Botticus was perfectly ready for me to die moments ago.

Shivam's had some foot in mouth moments but misreading facts is not particularly suspicious to me, nor is misspeaking. Being wrong is not the same as being evil.

I don't particularly want to kill shivam, either, so I'm not going to take up that offer.

Merus
11-30-2010, 11:11 PM
hahaha have fun counting these votes, GMs! suckers
I have to write all the possible flavour in advance I hate you fuckers

shivam
11-30-2010, 11:19 PM
can someone give me an accurate current vote count?

Adam
11-30-2010, 11:40 PM
Oh guys, assumption #4:
The players will learn the character of the lynched player, but not their faction or role, if they had one.

When we lynch someone, we don't know what team they're on. So other than Spineshark winning the vote, which will tell us if he was telling the truth about his character, or a Spineshark/Shivam tie, which might tell us if Spineshark has any form of stalemate immunity, we're not going to get as much information out of the lynch as I'm sure most of you were expecting.

Paul le Fou
11-30-2010, 11:47 PM
When we lynch someone, we don't know what team they're on. So other than Spineshark winning the vote, which will tell us if he was telling the truth about his character, or a Spineshark/Shivam tie, which might tell us if Spineshark has any form of stalemate immunity, we're not going to get as much information out of the lynch as I'm sure most of you were expecting.

No faction information?! How the fuck did I miss that? I withdraw my vote I want to play Innsmouth Horror

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:07 AM
In case I get lynched/nightkilled...

Trust List (Good for Day 1 actions only)
1) Byron - yeah, he's got a few votes, but I trust him right now. Why? Because in M5 when he was a dirty rat bastard he was helpful, but not helpful. His dissection of nameless's bullshit here (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=50) and http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912269&postcount=52 are vintage M6 Byron, where he was a tiny god. If he's not a Capcom, he's the Secret Boss, and that would scare me shitless. However, for today, I'm pretty sure he's innocent.

2) Paul - But only for today. After that all bets are off. Paul said in the voting thread that the weekend was a shitty time for him to start playing, and so I believe that Real Life has prevented him from more participation. After today, though, seriously dude. Help or die plz.

Suspicion List

1) Nameless - What the fuck, man (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=912260&postcount=49). Shades of guilty-as-shit Adam from M6. Using other people's words as misdirection? Classic Mafia move. Why hasn't he gotten more shit for this from people other than Byron...?

2) Loki - I've already explained this.

3) SDMX - Look, I know this is his second game, but my gut detects a different flavor/feel to his posts. It's very possible he's a new Evil power role and doesn't know how to play it yet, so he's being very certain to not stir up any trouble. WATCH THIS GUY.

here's john's original post. three links, all of which i read, and all of which furthered my conviction that nameless was shifty. now, if you think i'm lyin', that's on you, but this is exactly what i read and reacted to. I didn't read the later posts because i was hosting a party at my house this evening, and only skimmed the mafia thread.

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:08 AM
and yes, i realise that one of those links is a dupe-- at the time i went back and reread all of nameless's posts.

Adam
12-01-2010, 12:10 AM
In terms of information, it might be best to force a Spineshark and Shivam stalemate.

If Spineshark dies, we'll know his character. If he is indeed Sir Arthur, then we can assume he was telling the truth about having stalemate immunity. This means that Shivam is either a Capcomite with stalemate immunity, or the Secret Boss. Then again, this could also mean that Spineshark was the Secret Boss with the cover identity of Sir Arthur. Either way, we'll know that Shivam is something special.

If Shivam dies, we can make a guess that Spineshark really has (or had, if his idea of Arthur's Armor is correct) stalemate immunity. It's not 100% of course, since we only find out who dies, not who was immune. And, it also could mean that Spineshark is the Secret Boss.

That being said, I am still strongly in favor of taking out Shivam, for reasons I have already stated. I'm putting this out there for anyone who's unsure, but may want to use this vote as a chance to get what little information we can eke out of tonight's lynch.

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:13 AM
If i live tonight i will reveal who i am tomorrow, with proof.

Adam
12-01-2010, 12:18 AM
here's john's original post. three links, all of which i read, and all of which furthered my conviction that nameless was shifty. now, if you think i'm lyin', that's on you, but this is exactly what i read and reacted to. I didn't read the later posts because i was hosting a party at my house this evening, and only skimmed the mafia thread.


BUT...
and yes, i realise that one of those links is a dupe-- at the time i went back and reread all of nameless's posts.


AND EARLIER IN THE TIMESTREAM...
wow. reading those three nameless posts in a row is pretty fucking shifty. Good catch John.

http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a453/adamadamada/future.gif

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:18 AM
heh. very clever.
i should stop while i'm ahead, or tied, as it were.

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:21 AM
incidentally, adam, why don't you ever come to any of the bay area meet ups we have?

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:28 AM
so like 1.5 hrs left, give or take, and my last 4-5 posts have been haphazard at best, so i'm calling it a night. See you next round!

Paul le Fou
12-01-2010, 12:50 AM
In terms of information, it might be best to force a Spineshark and Shivam stalemate.

If Spineshark dies, we'll know his character. If he is indeed Sir Arthur, then we can assume he was telling the truth about having stalemate immunity. This means that Shivam is either a Capcomite with stalemate immunity, or the Secret Boss. Then again, this could also mean that Spineshark was the Secret Boss with the cover identity of Sir Arthur. Either way, we'll know that Shivam is something special.

If Shivam dies, we can make a guess that Spineshark really has (or had, if his idea of Arthur's Armor is correct) stalemate immunity. It's not 100% of course, since we only find out who dies, not who was immune. And, it also could mean that Spineshark is the Secret Boss.

That being said, I am still strongly in favor of taking out Shivam, for reasons I have already stated. I'm putting this out there for anyone who's unsure, but may want to use this vote as a chance to get what little information we can eke out of tonight's lynch.

whoever dies, we don't know the circumstances. In either case it could have been the other's stalemate protection, or a random decision because neither or both had stalemate protection. We don't know how the person died. We also don't know if they were guilty or innocent, at all. We get the name of some fucking video game character which may or may not have anything to do with what team they're on. Fucking sucks, right?


We know (nothing, but one person's guess was) that according to spineshark's claimed character, he may or may not have stalemate protection. That's it. That's not a lot to work with.

Unfortunately, since we don't get any useful information that we don't have to play a puzzle mini-game to try and deduce for ourselves, we have no idea what if anything we'll learn from lynching anyone. From what we've seen with claimed roles/characters and my own PM so far... I'm not that fucking confident. But hey, we'll see what tomorrow brings.

I got distracted and don't know what I was saying anymore. I guess I'll just leave this here.

Alpha Werewolf
12-01-2010, 02:00 AM
DAY 1 FINAL VOTE COUNT:

spineshark: 5
shivam
kaisel
namelessentity
SDMX
Byron
shivam
Paul le Fou
Umby

JohnB: 2
Loki
Karzac
Javex
Luana

shivam: 5
Umby
Adam
botticus
Karzac
Paul Le Fou
Luana

Byron: 3
dwolfe
botticus
Luana
Spineshark

Loki: 1
Byron
JohnB

Paul le Fou: 0
Adam

namelessentity: 0
shivam

Adam: 0
Byron

botticus: 1
Byron

Alpha Werewolf
12-01-2010, 02:02 AM
Had it really only been an hour? So much had seemed to happen, from Loki's tale of a hard-luck childhood in the Balkans (which no-one had heard of; was it from Devil May Cry?) and his assertion that anyone who crossed him "would pay", to Luana's frequent accusations of anyone who caught her attention (at one point even mistakenly accusing a chair she'd stumbled over).

At one point, spineshark had stepped forward and announced that he was, in fact, a dashing knight, and his honour and chivalry precluded him from being a Mafia visitor.
"Take off your mask, then," shivam said.
"N-no, I dare not," spineshark replied. "I made a pledge to keep my mask on the entire night, and I intend to keep that pledge."
The masqueraders muttered to themselves. "What a weak excuse." "He's dirty, I can feel it."
But then they'd put JohnB under the spotlight. He'd been reading back what namelessentity had been saying, convinced that there was something odd about him. shivam piped up: "Yeah! that's three times now he's been acting really oddly! He must be dirty!"
Byron had said, "Wait. JohnB only mentioned two times. What do you mean, three?"
shivam backpedalled, "Well, you know, it's the whole... vibe... of the thing, you know? And, you know, one of those lines, it was really, you know, two moments, right?"

The masqueraders couldn't decide. shivam, or spineshark?
Eventually, they ran out of time. Kattelox City was filled with the sound of sirens. A gigantic airship was approaching from the south! The airship's radios crackled to life:
"Attention Kattelox City! We are the Bonnes! Hand over your Reflectors and--"
The Bonne's airship, the Gesellschaft, shuddered.
"Hey! Stop firing those cannons!"
There were cannons on top of the town hall, just above the masquerade ballroom, firing at the ship!
The PA system inside the ballroom turned on for the first time in what seemed like days. "Ladies and gentlemen, your lack of cooperation has been most disappointing, and we shall be sure to express our displeasure at our earliest convenience. Right now, we have an airship to catch. Farewell!"
The Gesellschaft was taking damage, but only enough to annoy the captain. "Those cannons weren't there last time we attacked! We can't park the ship here while they've still got defences.", he announced to the cockpit. Grabbing the radio microphone again, he announced, "Servbots! We're throwing a rope down. Back to the ship!"
The Servbot waiters, huddled in the corner the entire time, squealed "nooooooooo~~~". The Gesellschaft had moved within range of the town hall, and it opened fire on the cannons. One of the massive stone beams cracked and feel, tumbling through the air, trailing volumetric smoke, until it landed on spineshark. His entire torso was crushed, and as the holographic costume flickered and faded, the masqueraders saw a glimpse of lily-white boxers with red hearts.

spineshark has been lynched; he was Arthur (from Ghouls and Ghosts).

Dust and smoke filled the ballroom, obscuring any attacks from unfriendly eyes. Sirens drowned out any noise, any dying gasps. The building shook with cannonfire, distracting anyone who didn't have something more important on their mind.

It was time to make a move.

It is now Night Phase. You may not post in this thread until instructed.

Alpha Werewolf
12-03-2010, 05:09 AM
(Apologies for the delay, I was busy the last couple hours)

Eventually, the Gesellschaft's radio hummed again. "Servbots! To the ship! I'm serious this time!" Out of the airship came a tangle of rope ladders, landing inside the now ruined ballroom. The Servbots, waving their arms in the air, toddled over and started to climb. The dust started to clear: the cannons on the roof of the town hall were ruined, and the Gesellschaft had started firing on a police helicopter that had been circling the building. There was something else, as well: a blood trail, leading off the edge of the building. There was a masquerade mask lying at the start of the trail. Byron picked it up, and held it to his face; his features shimmered, briefly appearing as dwolfe, before the mask failed entirely.

dwolfe was killed by the Mafia.

Just then, a shot came from the roof of the town hall, and a computer swung by on the end of a rope. The other end was attached to the Gesellschaft!
From the Gesellschaft came a final broadcast: "Hey! What are yo-- mmmmffmfmfmffmfmf!!"
"They're hijacking the airship!" someone called out, and the group ran for the rope ladders.

Round Two: Gesellschaft
FIGHT!!

Loki
12-03-2010, 05:48 AM
Innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting.

I can tell you guys that the Saboteur is in the game. I was sabouturded last night. I guess I have the Lawyer to thank for being alive. Thanks! Otherwise, JohnB's little plan would have worked. I'm assuming this is why only one citizen died last night. The secret boss's KO was wasted.

That we're not told what team lychees were on really hurts us. We have no idea how close we are to winning if we get a mafioso, and we can't rely on voting lists because we don't know if the lychee was a citizen. That's, like, the most critical information the Town usually has. However, I think a good starting point would be to assume that spineshark was innocent and take a look at the voting list. I didn't want to bring up it yesterday, but there was a lot of bandwagoning towards the end. It's a good place for Mafia to hide.

...if he was innocent. Who knows? In any case:


spineshark: 5
shivam
kaisel
namelessentity
SDMX
Byron
shivam
Paul le Fou
Umby

botticus
12-03-2010, 06:18 AM
So... you know the character (but not the playery) that sabotaged you, correct?

Nice presumed work by the Lawyer, given all the uncertainty over what was and was not possible with respect to the Saboteur.

botticus
12-03-2010, 06:19 AM
Playery? Playery. Player.

Loki
12-03-2010, 07:04 AM
I just know that I was sabotauged. Not by who.

botticus
12-03-2010, 07:07 AM
Well that's odd.

The Saboteur can nominate one player per night, as long as they are not in play. That player's actions that night will be sabotaged, and they will act as a Regular for that night. However, they will discover the character that sabotaged them, and police will be called to prevent three consecutive acts of sabotage on any one player.

Loki
12-03-2010, 07:20 AM
Oh. I thought this was just flavor text. It was JOHNNY SACK.

Adam
12-03-2010, 07:27 AM
Loki, please explain to me how you didn't make the stupidest mistake in the world.

I just know that I was sabotauged. Not by who.

Yes you do.

Oh. Hey guys, I wasn't trying to hide anything or lie to you guys. You trust me, right? It was... um... JOHNNY SACK. Yeah.

kaisel
12-03-2010, 09:00 AM
I don't know if assuming spineshark was innocent is the best choice or not. It might be better if we look at both scenarios (what does it say about the people who voted for spine if he was innocent? What does it say about them if he was guilty?). It's definitely more work, but I think just assuming one is a dangerous choice, since we'll be tempted to do that throughout, unless we get someone who can find out roles.

Karzac
12-03-2010, 09:07 AM
What I'd like to see is shivam bring us that proof that he's innocent that he mentioned.

shivam
12-03-2010, 09:59 AM
I'm immune to stalemates, KOs and Hits. I'm Ken Motherfuckin' Masters, bitches, and I fight for CAPCOM.

Adam
12-03-2010, 10:06 AM
If i live tonight i will reveal who i am tomorrow, with proof.

I hope that proof isn't punching me in the face. I like my face.

shivam
12-03-2010, 10:09 AM
my proof is that i survived, and the only way to kill me is to lynch me. I have one shoryuken to use every two days, and when i use it, someone dies, and i lose immunity.

botticus
12-03-2010, 10:32 AM
my proof is that i survived, and the only way to kill me is to lynch me. I have one shoryuken to use every two days, and when i use it, someone dies, and i lose immunity.

Technically you could be the Secret Boss, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

At any rate, one kill last night (by the Mafia, which I missed the first time) means either the Secret Boss is dead (spineshark or dwolfe), or the Secret Boss was in fact blocked by the Lawyer in a kill attempt.

Unfortunately dwolfe was kinda quiet so I don't think we can really get anything out of his death (besides the fact that he's not Mafia!). He bought Loki's reveal and voted for Byron, but the latter is probably too obvious to be a clue. The former could be misdirection (if Loki were actually Mafia), but would also be counterproductive.

Kylie
12-03-2010, 12:42 PM
I'm pretty certain that if dwolfe had been the Secret Boss, his kill would have gone off. That's precedent, at least.

So: we think spineshark was innocent, and we think Shivam is innocent.

Well done. We've caught up to where I was the other evening.

I seem to recall somebody trying to convince me that I should pick between spineshark and Shivam, but who could it have been?

What did you mean by "nice presumed work by the Lawyer", Botticus?

botticus
12-03-2010, 12:48 PM
What did you mean by "nice presumed work by the Lawyer", Botticus?

On the assumption that Loki is correct and truthful:

I can tell you guys that the Saboteur is in the game. I was sabouturded last night. I guess I have the Lawyer to thank for being alive. Thanks! Otherwise, JohnB's little plan would have worked. I'm assuming this is why only one citizen died last night. The secret boss's KO was wasted.

Kylie
12-03-2010, 12:52 PM
Loki's alive, and only one kill went through. I see no reason to doubt. Why do you?

botticus
12-03-2010, 12:58 PM
Loki's alive, and only one kill went through. I see no reason to doubt. Why do you?

1) Secret Boss could be dead (if you're right that dwolfe would have acted before being night-killed, it could still have been spineshark - Capcom character alibi that is immune to stalemates)

2) Lawyer and Secret Boss could have randomly targeted someone else entirely (unlikely, yes)

I don't know much that goes on in this game that I shouldn't doubt.

shivam
12-03-2010, 01:11 PM
So right now, my suspect list includes Namelessentity and Botticus. Adam, despite haranguing me all day yesterday, is likely as not innocent. I was playing pretty badly by the end, and deserved what i got.

But botticus's attempts to break the stalemate yesterday are a bit concerning, especially as he knew that there are a lot of stalemate blocker roles in this game. My read is that he assumed one or the other of us was the secret boss or a capcom fighter role, and would have been happy to see either die.

Care to explain your motives, botticus?

Umby
12-03-2010, 01:11 PM
What

Byron, this is the second time you've connected yourself to Loki. First time you merely accused him, with barely any reasoning. The second time, you support him fullheartedly and with a little reasoning (albeit a good one). Something's fishy here, and I want to find out.

I believe shivam, however!

botticus
12-03-2010, 01:17 PM
So right now, my suspect list includes Namelessentity and Botticus. Adam, despite haranguing me all day yesterday, is likely as not innocent. I was playing pretty badly by the end, and deserved what i got.

But botticus's attempts to break the stalemate yesterday are a bit concerning, especially as he knew that there are a lot of stalemate blocker roles in this game. My read is that he assumed one or the other of us was the secret boss or a capcom fighter role, and would have been happy to see either die.

Care to explain your motives, botticus?I'll have to review the actual voting timeline, but I thought that switching my vote from Byron got him off the hook for a lynch after you hopped off of spineshark's tally. You were the target of my vote for that action, I wasn't really reading anything else into it. Didn't particularly care if spineshark was lynched as a result due to that odd role reveal, but my initial vote for Byron was invalidated once he got around to explaining himself - would rather not have seen him dead because of it.

Granted with the way he's been coming after me since then, I'm probably worse off for it.

shivam
12-03-2010, 01:18 PM
studying dwolfe's posts don't really give us a lot of data, so i have no idea why he was targeted. The only thing i can think of is that he was either onto something by voting byron, or the mafia wants us to suspect byron.