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Solitayre
11-12-2011, 05:04 PM
It’s been some time since the fall of the Mobster Kingpin, the scourge of your vaguely prohibition era city, and the end of whatever threats, real or imaginary, he may have posed. With the dramatic decrease in crime, it was a hard time for all sleuths. Requests for your services were at an all time low. Compensation, unsatisfactory. There were times you barely felt hard boiled at all.

>”Observe faceless masses.”

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16View.gif

You look out at the city from your office window. You gaze abstractedly at the commotion below. Same scene, same faces every day. It's like it hardly ever changes. Not that you can afford to pay much attention to scenery, with your mind wrapped around the latest problem to sleuth, and your lips, around your flask.

Your phone rings.

>“Answer phone in a hard boiled manner.”

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16Hardboiled.gif

This is what being a hard boiled problem sleuth is all about. It's about being a strong, silent type, oozing with confidence, charisma. It's about having a working phone. A real desk. Not one, but two steak dinners. And some hysterical broad on the line, yackin' about some fella she's got troubles with. It's always the same thing with dames…

"Now calm down a second, toots... Hey, take it easy, sweetheart. I can barely understand a word you're sayin'..."

You have a new case. It seems there's a new threat in town. A new, dangerous threat. And you might be just the sleuth to put a stop to it.

A new gang is muscling in on your city. See, they say it’s their city. And they can be pretty persuasive.

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16Midnightcrew.gif

They call themselves the Midnight Crew. They threaten you with their sinister, shadow-based magic. Each night, they will send you a message by picking off one of you, until their numbers match yours. If that happens, you’ll wish you’d never left your office.

Are you man enough to challenge this threat? Are you Sleuth enough? Are you hard boiled enough?

>”Quickly retrieve gun from desk.”

Erm, you don’t see a gun there.

>”Quickly retrieve keys from desk.”

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16gun.gif

You take the gun. Its grip is cold against your hand. This is your only friend in the world right now. It’s going to be a long night.

------

The Rules

Standard mafia rules apply. Days are 72 hours long. Nights are 48 hours.

You may not discuss this game outside of this thread with anyone, via PMs, IMs, or any other means. During the day phase, you may freely discuss the game in this thread with the other players. You will decide one other player to lynch that day. The player with the most votes at the end of the day will die. In the event of a tie, a coin will be flipped. If no accusations occur during the day, no lynch will occur.

You may accuse another player with a clear, bolded accusation.

I accuse Solitayre.

You may change or retract your vote at any time.

When night falls, players may no longer discuss the game in this thread. The mafia will confer at night to decide which player they would like to kill. Other players may have powers they may use at night.

The identities of lynched players will be public knowledge. The identities of players killed at night will be known only to their killer(s.)

Other errata:
-Players must post at least once per game day. Players who fail will be replaced.
-Editing posts is forbidden. (unless you're me!)
-You may not post in the main mafia thread while playing this game.
-Dead players may not post in this thread.
-You may not post after nightfall. Try to exercise awareness.
-You may not post or quote private correspondence with the GM, such as Role PMs. You may imply whatever you like, but may not directly post it.
-Players who repeatedly violate rules will be eaten by Fluthlu.
-If a player is removed from the game for violating the rules, players may continue to discuss in the thread for the remainder of the day, but there will be no lynch at the end of the day.

Roles
The game contains the following roles.

1 Investigator
1 Vigilante
1 Angel
11 Standard Townies
1 Mafia Roleblocker
3 standard Mafia


Player List

botticus
Brickroad
Destil
dtsund
Egarwaen
Kayma
Krakenbrau
McClain
Mogri
Nich
Nodal
poetfox
Raven
Red Hedgehog
schep
The Giant Head
Umby
Yimothy

Day 1 has begun. It will end on November 15th, at 10 PM EST.

What will you do?

schep
11-12-2011, 05:16 PM
Day 1. Right. If anyone needs me, I'll be in my fort.

Brickroad
11-12-2011, 05:29 PM
I accuse McClain's stupid face.

poetfox
11-12-2011, 05:35 PM
I just realized something.
http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/1289112556.jpg

McClain
11-12-2011, 05:39 PM
Oh man, M16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle). I can't wait to get my imagination on.

I wonder if we just have this list of roles from the pitch (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1182236&postcount=5658)since the rules don't have any.

I accuse McClain's stupid face.

Predictable Brickroad is Predictable.



PREVIEW EDIT: Poetfox stealing my joke ninja!!!!

Umby
11-12-2011, 05:41 PM
All right, townies, we gotta take some action against the Midnight Crew. But how, sirs, how!?

McClain
11-12-2011, 05:43 PM
All right, townies, we gotta take some action against the Midnight Crew. But how, sirs, how!?

We kill them. Duh.

Raven
11-12-2011, 05:44 PM
.....No penalty at all if we finished the day without a lynch?

McClain
11-12-2011, 05:47 PM
.....No penalty at all if we finished the day without a lynch?

We get no information, no voting records and we still lose someone to a night kill. It's a bad play for the town.

Solitayre
11-12-2011, 05:49 PM
Oh man, M16 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle). I can't wait to get my imagination on.

I wonder if we just have this list of roles from the pitch (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1182236&postcount=5658)since the rules don't have any.




OP has been updated to list the roles in the game.

.....No penalty at all if we finished the day without a lynch?

Yes, but this is only possible if a day ends with absolutely no open accusations.

McClain
11-12-2011, 05:54 PM
Yeah, the no-lynch option was discussed at length in the early two games back when it was still an allowable move. It's a lot of cons weighed against a single pro (riding the brake gives the inspector more time to work), and the pro is potentially nullified if the Mafia gets lucky.

I actually forgot about that one pro. And we do have the other roles, so I suppose it's possible to have a situation where we set up a claimed inspector with a no-lynch day and angel protection, but I don't see it being worth it. And definitely not on day one.

OP has been updated to list the roles in the game.

Cool, no curveballs there, then.

Destil
11-12-2011, 06:15 PM
> Press Start (http://www.mspaintadventures.com/extras/PS_titlescreen/)

So, we're pretty much back to game one, then?

I think I'm going to need more pulchritude for this.

McClain
11-12-2011, 06:36 PM
> Get on with the schtick already!

You suddenly remember that you were going to attempt to play this game in style and switch to a much classier second-person narrative.

> Ponder day-one lynch candidates

You figure that the town is even more hopeless and clueless than normal. No random drunk is going to bust out and point your in the right direction today. No, you figure today the best strategy is to cull some dead weight. So who feels the most expendable?

You've got your eye on that Hysterical Broad Brickroad. Last time she was under pressure she fell to pieces. But she opened the game with a vote for you, and it would just be too expected to point a sharp finger right back at her. Not very hard boiled.

> Kick over Schep's fort.

You calmly walk over to the pile of old books and plywood that Schep is currently hiding under and kick the crap out of it. No hiding, son! We got bad guys to catch!

Yimothy
11-12-2011, 06:57 PM
>Post role PM.

Cool your jets, slick! That kind of thing, while not expressly forbidden, is frowned on. Find something else to post.

>Quote OP.

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16View.gif

You look out at the city from your office window. You gaze abstractedly at the commotion below. Same scene, same faces every day. It's like it hardly ever changes. Not that you can afford to pay much attention to scenery, with your mind wrapped around the latest problem to sleuth, and your lips, around your flask.

You select a portion of the rules post that happens to look just like your role PM, except in the PM the text was before the picture. And there was some extra stuff about being a townie after it.

botticus
11-12-2011, 07:12 PM
I actually forgot about that one pro. And we do have the other roles, so I suppose it's possible to have a situation where we set up a claimed inspector with a no-lynch day and angel protection, but I don't see it being worth it. And definitely not on day one.

I imagine since the numbers are known, it could be something to at least consider as the population dwindles if we find ourselves running out of time. But we'd also need our power roles to make it that long. And the Mafia Roleblocker could muck things up even if luck was on our side. Only good use for it off the top of my head would be to give us an extra day at the end (if a bad lynch + nightkill would end it, removing the lynch would potentially give us a more informed lynch the next day if the inspector was still hanging in).

I don't plan to take part, but I actually hope the participant flavor carries on longer than usual this game!

Mogri
11-12-2011, 07:50 PM
>Post role PM.

Cool your jets, slick! That kind of thing, while not expressly forbidden, is frowned on. Find something else to post.

>Quote OP.



You select a portion of the rules post that happens to look just like your role PM, except in the PM the text was before the picture. And there was some extra stuff about being a townie after it.

The hijinks start early here in M16, I see. This is supposed to be Sol's gambit, but since he's not in the game, I guess we can let you get away with it. This time.

FWIW, I can confirm this information.

Mogri
11-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Oh, and I suppose I accuse poetfox. Watch where you point that thing!

McClain
11-12-2011, 07:58 PM
Oh, and I suppose I accuse poetfox. Watch where you point that thing!

> Raise an eyebrow in Mogri's direction

You do, in fact, raise your eyebrow so high it threatens to escape from your forehead and launch into the stratosphere. This accusation strikes you as random, even by day 1 standards.

schep
11-12-2011, 08:18 PM
> Kick over Schep's fort.

You calmly walk over to the pile of old books and plywood that Schep is currently hiding under and kick the crap out of it. No hiding, son! We got bad guys to catch!

schep fails to AUTO-PARRY! Ouch!

Your VIM is obviously much greater than your PULCHRITUDE, sir. I shall have to write you an UNPLEASANT NOTE.

Raven
11-12-2011, 08:54 PM
> Ponder day-one lynch candidates

You figure that the town is even more hopeless and clueless than normal. No random drunk is going to bust out and point your in the right direction today. No, you figure today the best strategy is to cull some dead weight. So who feels the most expendable?

You've got your eye on that Hysterical Broad Brickroad. Last time she was under pressure she fell to pieces. But she opened the game with a vote for you, and it would just be too expected to point a sharp finger right back at her. Not very hard boiled.



> Decide to start using the power of meta-investigation and imagination.

> Pull out a big fat map labeled 'ROAD, B.'

> Open and present.

Name: Brickroad
Status: Established TT Mafia player

Win:Loss Ratio as Town = 3 (M1, M2, M9) won, 4 (M4, M5, M7, M15) lost
Win:Loss Ratio as Mafia = 2 (M3, M10) won, 2 (M6, M14) lost

Summary

The Pros of Keeping Brick as Town

~Natural leadership (M1, M2) when he feels like it
~Team-first attitude

The Cons of Keeping Brick as Town

~Horrible track record in detecting bad guys (M1, where he was 0-7 as the Inspector, M5, M7)
~A big source of potential distraction (a point that he had even feel the need to prove by killing himself in M15)
~Capable of some awesome Mafia play, either by the power of manipulation/misinformation (M3, M10) or by exploiting modkill (M14)
~Most fatal of all: the general tendency to go 'cheeseburger mode' and/or chokes under pressure when things gone bad for his team (every game he lost as Town)

CONCLUSION

With You-Know-Who not playing, it is rather hard for you to identify the objective weakest link in this game. However, you feel that Brick, while far from being the worst Mafia player here, is the least valuable player as Town AND the most destructive player as Mafia, particularly in this kind of set-up. Sure, he is often entertaining and as a spectator you would like him to be alive as long as possible, but as a Townie you'd rather have a safe and boring game instead of having a volatile time-bomb on your hands. His cons outweigh his pros, and that is a good enough reason for you to give him a vote.

What will you do?

> Accuse Brickroad. For now.

Umby
11-12-2011, 09:10 PM
>Ponder over Raven's Post

>Pull out pencil and start to write hard boiled letter, Umby style.

Dear Raven,

Although your strategy of lynching Brickroad on day one makes sense in the sense that he'll become a bigger threat to the town's sanity every day he survives. However, I believe we should give everyone a chance, even Brickroad. I don't want to make a habit of killing him off, out of good faith. If you can prove otherwise why Brickroad should die today, without metagaming, then I would love to jump on the bandwagon.

Brickroad, don't let me down.

Yimothy
11-12-2011, 09:13 PM
>Counter

On the other hand, the two games where he was most useful as town were the ones with the most similar rules to this one.

>Ruminate

You think it's a bit early in the day to fall back on kill-the-useless. You're gonna wait and see if anyone does something suspicious before casting any votes.

>Be Mogri

FWIW, I can confirm this information.

>Be Yimothy

Of course you can confirm it, Mogri. If you're town, you have the same information. If you're mafia, you know I'm town.

Mogri
11-12-2011, 09:22 PM
>Be Mogri

Aha! But if I were a town PR, then I would not know... er... hrm.

Well, I did say "for what it's worth."

>Understand gun joke

You can't understand the gun joke.

>Pout

You feel sorry for yourself. Satisfied?

McClain
11-12-2011, 09:27 PM
> Consider Mogri.

You think about Mogri some more. His "confirmation" of Yimothy's information strikes you as odd. Yimothy would have to be some kind of idiot to make a claim like he did if it wasn't accurate. So you figure that theoretical Mafia!Mogri would have nothing to lose by "confirming" this information. It's an empty gesture. But does that make it nefarious? You're not sure. But it's close proximity to his vote for poetfox makes you scatch your chin thoughtfully. See how thoughtfully you are scratching your chin? You're like the goddam Thinker here.

> PREVIEW EDIT:

Or pretty much what Yimothy and Nich said. Posting in style/character takes time. Time you may not have!

Umby
11-12-2011, 09:34 PM
I've tried for a couple games now to get "loyalty oaths" to stick as a term for these meaningless "say X to prove you're a townie" meaningless shenanigans, but it never caught on.

Oh! Is that a reference to Catch 22? I think it is!

This isn't a meaningless post, I just wanted to appreciate the greatness that is Catch 22.

>Appreciate the greatness that is Catch 22

Well, now that that's over, we can all go to bed happily.

Raven
11-12-2011, 09:39 PM
> Frown deeply while reading Umby's & Yimothy's letters, & write in reply:

Dear U&Y,

Keep in mind that above is a placeholder vote. I would gladly switch vote if there is anyone making a colossal mistake (or, more likely, displaying a blatant lack of inactivity). That said, I sincerely believe that in a paranoia-filled and data-starved Day 1, making early case for a potential long-term liability is more productive than waiting until someone does anything remotely suspicious and gang up on him/her (in which case, the unfortunate subject is very likely to be innocent anyway).

>Counter

On the other hand, the two games where he was most useful as town were the ones with the most similar rules to this one.



> Counter-Rebuttal

Yes, but in M1 and M2, it is because he asserted leadership from the start to players who are all still unfamiliar with Forum Mafia. While in this one, he seems unwilling to do likewise.

McClain
11-12-2011, 09:47 PM
Yes, but in M1 and M2, it is because he asserted leadership from the start to players who are all still unfamiliar with Forum Mafia. While in this one, he seems unwilling to do likewise.

> Check your watch

You note that you've only had this case for a few hours now, and that it's the weekend, and that sometime people have more important things to do than sit around being hard boiled on a Saturday night (sad but true!). If Brickroad wants to be assertive, he certainly has time to do so.

Don't be mistaken, you'd be fine seeing Brickroad swing for his previous crimes. But it's a new day, and every man deserves a chance to prove himself reformed.

> Duck below Nich's fire!

Damn, you barely got out of the way of that one. You better start posting faster if you don't want to get nailed in the crossfire.

poetfox
11-12-2011, 09:50 PM
>pf: Fire M16 at Mogri!
You turn on your HAIR DRYER and blast Mogri with warm air! You have incredible aim. The warm air feels quite lovely, and his hair has never looked better!

Seriously, though, it's way too early to lock in votes or anything, but Raven's Brickroad wall 'o text seems mighty suspicious to me. It's a really safe move that really looks like you're contributing! But all you're really saying is stuff we already know that only barely, if at all, related to this new game and this new situation.

I accuse Raven.

Raven
11-12-2011, 09:53 PM
Based on his one post so far? This is reaching a bit.

I accuse Raven.

Not really. But if I elaborate, it's going to be too meta-gamey and distracting. Again, place-holder vote.

Raven
11-12-2011, 09:55 PM
Based on his one post so far? This is reaching a bit.

I accuse Raven.

I kind of want to elaborate, but it's going to be too distracting & meta. Again, place-holder vote. I just wanted to say something substantial while making it.

McClain
11-12-2011, 09:59 PM
Not really. But if I elaborate, it's going to be too meta-gamey and distracting. Again, place-holder vote.

> Next

You also take issue with the oft-used term "place-holder vote." There is no such thing. It's not like if someone gets enough "place-holder votes" they'll get place-holder lynched and be place-holder dead. A gumshoe needs to be sure when he takes aim at a suspect.

You recognize that votes can be changed. But that's as obvious as the nose on your face. It doesn't need to be stated. More empty words taking up space in your inventory.

> Notice there are two Ravens saying slightly different things

Well now this is interesting. You wonder if the second Raven wants to elaborate enough to overrule the first.

Raven
11-12-2011, 10:10 PM
> Flip open a dictionary

"A place-holder vote is basically a vote used when the voter has no reliable current data to make a legit vote. Its general function is to generate a meaningful discussion and encourage people to start making serious accusations."

> Sigh

Technical mistake on the double post. Just being really sleepy and opening multiple tabs at once. Don't over-analyze that.

McClain
11-12-2011, 10:17 PM
> Look in your dictionary for "place-holder vote"

You completely fail to find an entry for "place-holder vote." Raven must be using a new edition

> Stop being an asshole!

You take yourself down a peg by way of sipping your whiskey and coughing slightly. Very unmanly. It won't happen again. Probably.

> Get to the point already!

You stand by your original point, which is not that place-hold votes aren't a thing which totally exist. Because they do. But that by defending a vote by handwaving it completely as a place-holder devalues it and draws attention to the voter, not the votee.

Red Hedgehog
11-12-2011, 10:25 PM
I'm out of town until late Monday night. Will try to keep up with this on my phone in the meantime but not sure how often I'll be able to check.

I have no theorymamcing, role-playing, rules questions, or meaningless accusations to add.

Raven
11-12-2011, 10:30 PM
> Clarify!

You don't "hand-wave it completely as a place-holder." But rather, hand-wave it as a place-holder until the relevant person in question shows up and respond.

Yimothy
11-12-2011, 11:15 PM
>Be Raven

I kind of want to elaborate, but it's going to be too distracting & meta.

>Be Yimothy

You wonder what this Raven guy has against the metagame. That's the best part! You wish he would elaborate.

Mogri
11-12-2011, 11:57 PM
>Check rules

You check the rules and don't find anything specifying that there's daytalk. You also don't find anything specifying there's no daytalk.

Perhaps a higher power (or, indeed, one of the Midnight folks) could help you answer this question.

Raven
11-13-2011, 12:27 AM
You wonder what this Raven guy has against the metagame. That's the best part! You wish he would elaborate.

>Consider

You decide to wait until Brick himself shows up and see if he responds to your initial accusation.

>Slap forehead

You just remember that you probably had to mention that you're on a different timezone (GMT +7, by the time you typed this it was already Sunday afternoon)

Yimothy
11-13-2011, 12:48 AM
>Next

You realise that when Raven says "place-holder vote" he's actually talking about voting for someone to get their attention. Or something. It's confusing!

>Next

You wonder what Mogri is going on about with the daytalk stuff. It says right there in the rules that no-one may discuss the game outside of this thread! The Midnight Crew have an exception allowing them to confer at night, though. You wonder why Mogri is making you waste your thinking time on this.

botticus
11-13-2011, 04:54 AM
Not really. But if I elaborate, it's going to be too meta-gamey and distracting. Again, place-holder vote.

I think if you have elaborate reasons for your vote that haven't already been mentioned in your initial accusation, it's probably worth elaborating. And if it's truly that distracting, perhaps the reasons should be reconsidered?

Kayma
11-13-2011, 05:14 AM
Hoo boy, command prompt. Let's see..

>dance crazy

Kayma danced crazy!

schep
11-13-2011, 05:25 AM
>Check rules

You check the rules and don't find anything specifying that there's daytalk. You also don't find anything specifying there's no daytalk.

Perhaps a higher power (or, indeed, one of the Midnight folks) could help you answer this question.

> Check backside of poster

You are now schep.

Why would a hard-boiled, honest detective care about the FAKENESS attribute of a daychat? And what is a daychat, anyway?

I accuse Mogri.

Yimothy
11-13-2011, 07:08 AM
>Be Kayma

Kayma danced crazy!

>Be Yimothy

HMM... YOU TEMPT ME, WHAT ME DO?

>Go to bed.

You've had about enough of this for tonight. These bums better have something interesting going on by morning!

McClain
11-13-2011, 08:36 AM
> Gather evidence for Mogri:


"Confirms" Yimothy

Votes Poetfox for packing heat.

Asks about something called "daychat"


A silly list of offenses, but you've seen worse for a first suspect.

> Gather evidence for Raven


Floats idea about no-lynching

Votes for Brickroad for the crime of being Brickroad

Backs up vote saying Brickroad is unwilling to assert leadership. After one post. And incidentally asserting leadership is what usually gets Brickroad killed

Changes tune to a place-holder vote.


This all feels somewhat noobish to you.

You decide that you want to hear from the rest of the players before casting a vote, and may even go another direction and use your vote to try to get people talking. But you have your eye on these two. BOTH eyes, in fact!

Mogri
11-13-2011, 09:08 AM
>Object

What motivation would scum have for asking about daychat? You've called unnecessary attention to yourself, just like you always do on day one. On the other hand, this makes day one much more interesting.

You seem to have forgotten why you asked in the first place, though. Maybe a quick review of the case will refresh your memory.

McClain
11-13-2011, 09:14 AM
What motivation would scum have for asking about daychat?

> Open casefile labeled "Guild"

You feel your temples immediately start to swell under the pressure. You're pretty sure your head it about to literally explode.

> Close the fucking file for the love of god man!

The pressure fades. But the scars will always be with you.

Mogri
11-13-2011, 09:19 AM
>Review case

You look over the facts. You remember tuinkig that someone had suggested something that implied that the Midnight Crew had communicated somehow, but upon review, you really can't see why you would've thought that.

Mogri
11-13-2011, 09:21 AM
>Rephrase

What motivation would a rational scum have for asking about daychat?

Egarwaen
11-13-2011, 10:05 AM
> Get Arms!

You've already got arms, dumbass!

> Poke Raven

Hey Raven? You say:

Not really. But if I elaborate, it's going to be too meta-gamey and distracting. Again, place-holder vote.

I kind of want to elaborate, but it's going to be too distracting & meta. Again, place-holder vote. I just wanted to say something substantial while making it.

I'm not following your logic here. Looks to me like you already elaborated on your vote in the original post, where you claim that Brickroad loses marginally more often as town than as mafia. You've got more elaboration and you're not sharing?

Raven
11-13-2011, 10:31 AM
I think if you have elaborate reasons for your vote that haven't already been mentioned in your initial accusation, it's probably worth elaborating. And if it's truly that distracting, perhaps the reasons should be reconsidered?

> Check watch.

You realize that since you will be likely unavailable for a while later, you should make your case now while you still have spare time. Thus, the follow-up elaboration:

> Present case

We can actually get something from a player's first move, but only if said player already had a mountain's worth of first move to analyze for a specific pattern. In Brick's case, he generally likes to advance a theory on how to proceed, go straight accusing somebody and explaining the reasoning, play along a bit if he likes the flavor, or go straight accusing the obvious worst player (Guild in M15) on his first post.

The previous two times--the only two times--he made a joke vote on McClain as his first relevant move, he turned out to be a Mafia. You noticed he did the same thing this time around.

Coincidence? Probably. Is it a guess? Yes, but at least it is based on something resembling a patternal behavior rather than subjective opinion on what constitutes a Mafia behavior. That said, you're still totally open to other possibilities, especially after Brickroad himself responds and everybody had posted.

On a non-BR related note:

> Check backside of poster

You are now schep.

Why would a hard-boiled, honest detective care about the FAKENESS attribute of a daychat? And what is a daychat, anyway?

I accuse Mogri.

...something in this post struck you as a bit strange. Maybe because he said "daychat" while Mogri actually said "daytalk".

>Check rules

You check the rules and don't find anything specifying that there's daytalk. You also don't find anything specifying there's no daytalk.

Perhaps a higher power (or, indeed, one of the Midnight folks) could help you answer this question.

schep
11-13-2011, 11:38 AM
...something in this post struck you as a bit strange. Maybe because he said "daychat" while Mogri actually said "daytalk".
Sure enough. I blame the reverberations from the Guild incident.

Or if you're indirectly implying I mixed it up because I'm actually already in a dayparley, well, the first stretch there is that a dayhuddle would need to actually exist.

McClain
11-13-2011, 12:07 PM
This reasoning is so much sounder than I was expecting that I have no idea why you were so reluctant to share it to begin with. I'll probably move my vote off you if something better comes up, but nothing has. Mogri and schep seem more bumbling than shady. Oh well, I'll keep an eye on Brickroad and if I think you're right, maybe I'll join you there.

> Nod in agreement.

You find yourself remember your past run-ins with Brickroad, and wonder if this really is part of a pattern, or just him fucking with you again.

botticus
11-13-2011, 02:55 PM
The previous two times--the only two times--he made a joke vote on McClain as his first relevant move, he turned out to be a Mafia. You noticed he did the same thing this time around.

Raven, do you have your own TT Mafia wiki or have you gone back and researched all of this to prep for M16?

Mogri
11-13-2011, 05:01 PM
Mogri and schep seem more bumbling than shady.

>Next

You can live with "bumbling."

>Mention crazy scheme

It occurred to you today that you could quote a small phrase from your role PM to effectively soft-confirm yourself. There are two reasons you're actually against this plan:
- You'd really would rather not split Sol's game wide open on day one. There's a reason most mafia games prohibit quoting the mod.
- It's entirely possible the Midnight Crew have access to town PM text, and if they don't already, it's a good bet Sol would provide them with the text if we tried something like this. "Don't try to outguess the mod," the saying goes.

Umby
11-13-2011, 06:20 PM
I have to admit, if all Brickroad is going to say is a vote for McClain, then he is pretty useless. Although that doesn't scream "Midnight Crew" or "townie" to me, it's just useless. Brickroad, take point and lead us to our victory, or you may just see a townie revolt.

botticus
11-13-2011, 06:59 PM
Is this sarcastic? I'm for killing Brick on principal before he games more innocent people into dying, but I don't think the opposite of useless is leading the town to victory. That kind of talk is practically asking for another day-long Brick discussion, which I guess would be just great for some people if he's town.

Hell, there are still some people who haven't posted yet (dtsund, Krakenbrau, Nodal if my count is right after TGH checked in), so Brick certainly isn't in the lead for Most Useless Player early in Day 1.

Solitayre
11-13-2011, 07:06 PM
> "Solitayre: Count votes."

You suddenly realize it is your responsibility to keep track of all the silly votes these flatfooted gumshoes keep making.

You wield your ADDING SCYTHE and set about your tasks.

McClain: 1
Brickroad

poetfox: 1
Mogri

Brickroad: 1
Raven

Raven: 2
Nich
Poetfox

Mogri: 1
schep

Day ends in 48 hours.

Mogri
11-13-2011, 07:27 PM
>Panic

Ack, this is a short day one. You're used to it dragging out forever.

>Count posts

You rummage through the thread and count everyone's posts.

McClain: 13 (6, 8, 10, 13, 15, 20, 27, 31, 35, 37, 48, 50, 57)
Raven: 9 (9, 22, 29, 33, 34, 36, 39, 42, 54)
Mogri: 8 (18, 19, 26, 41, 49, 51, 52, 59) [not including this]
Yimothy: 6 (16, 24, 28, 40, 43, 47)
Nich: 5 (3, 11, 25, 30, 55)
botticus: 4 (17, 44, 58, 62)
schep: 4 (2, 21, 46, 56)
Umby: 3 (7, 23, 60)
poetfox: 2 (5, 32)
Brickroad: 1 (4)
Destil: 1 (14)
Egarwaen: 1 (53)
Kayma: 1 (45)
Red Hedgehog: 1 (38)
The Giant Head: 1 (61)
Krakenbrau
dtsund
Nodal

You don't have any real leads, but you might as well put a vote on someone who's lurking.

You accuse dtsund.

Yimothy
11-13-2011, 07:57 PM
>Be Mogri

It occurred to you today that you could quote a small phrase from your role PM to effectively soft-confirm yourself. There are two reasons you're actually against this plan:
- You'd really would rather not split Sol's game wide open on day one. There's a reason most mafia games prohibit quoting the mod.
- It's entirely possible the Midnight Crew have access to town PM text, and if they don't already, it's a good bet Sol would provide them with the text if we tried something like this. "Don't try to outguess the mod," the saying goes.

>Be Yimothy

You wonder why this only occurred to Mogri today, when you actually did it (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190726&postcount=16) yesterday and he commented (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190743&postcount=18) on it. You thought you'd kind of diffused this sort of situation by putting a decent chunk of the role PM out there. You wonder which phrase Mogri intends to post, and if he's thinking of having everyone post a few words in order to break the game, or of posting the whole thing and just confirming himself. Still, his second point is a good one, you must admit. You think your first post of the game pretty much proves you had access to the townie role PM, but you concede that your having access to the townie role PM doesn't prove you're a townie.

Then Mogri goes and does a post count roughly 28 hours into the game. You think it's more likely that the people who haven't posted yet haven't noticed that the game has started yet than that they're deliberately lurking.

Brickroad
11-13-2011, 08:15 PM
I admit I was disappointed to learn that this game's official term for townie is "townie". Nice creative effort, Sol.

dtsund
11-13-2011, 10:18 PM
> DTS: Fondly regard shenanigans.

You attempt to do so, but cannot view the current exchange with anything even resembling fondness! Your SLEUTH INTUICHALICE, unfortunately, is nearly empty of CLUE WINE, so you have nothing to do but add your own voice to the already raucus and seemingly-pointless argument. Perhaps, however, it was by intent that the discussion wound up this way.

> DTS: Punch Raven in the snout to establish superiority.

You come to the conclusion that Raven may have been attempting to jumpstart the Brickroad Show early here, having seen the fellow in question simply lie down and wait to die the last time it started. You regard this as suspicious, and have no problem with [B]accusing Raven[/I].

dtsund
11-13-2011, 10:19 PM
> DTS: Fondly regard shenanigans.

You attempt to do so, but cannot view the current exchange with anything even resembling fondness! Your SLEUTH INTUICHALICE, unfortunately, is nearly empty of CLUE WINE, so you have nothing to do but add your own voice to the already raucus and seemingly-pointless argument. Perhaps, however, it was by intent that the discussion wound up this way.

> DTS: Punch Raven in the snout to establish superiority.

You come to the conclusion that Raven may have been attempting to jumpstart the Brickroad Show early here, having seen the fellow in question simply lie down and wait to die the last time it started. You regard this as suspicious, and have no problem with accusing Raven.

Raven
11-13-2011, 10:57 PM
> DTS: Punch Raven in the snout to establish superiority.

You come to the conclusion that Raven may have been attempting to jumpstart the Brickroad Show early here, having seen the fellow in question simply lie down and wait to die the last time it started. You regard this as suspicious, and have no problem with [B]accusing Raven[/I].

> Duck smoothly and regard DTS with a cold, hard, look.

You ponder to self, "So, making the first substantial argument and accusation = suspicious lynch-worthy behavior?". There is something really strange going on here, and you feel a growing uneasiness inside you. You had the feeling that there may be something really big at stakes here. Perhaps much bigger than you initially thought.

You had no intention whatsoever to keep making the same point over and over. You had nothing more to add into your previous argument, and you decided to have faith on your fellow honest, hard-working, sleuths. For now, you drive back to the office for a nice hot cup of coffee...

....while grabbing a big juicy cheeseburger along the way. Yummy.

Krakenbrau
11-14-2011, 02:05 AM
> K-Bro: Ponder Brickroad Show.

You realize that, while you were expecting some general distraction and derailment regarding The Bricky One, you did not expect it to begin so soon. It does look a bit like Raven's trying to kickstart the show.

> K-Bro: Lynch Raven!

You want to, but quickly realize your track record when it comes to Midnight Crew/Outsider detection is pretty abysmal. You decide to hang back, and try to use your vote more wisely.

Nodal
11-14-2011, 10:00 AM
>Tear yourself away from Elf Dress-up RPG

From the little that's happened so far, it does look like Raven's trying to get Brickroad in the spotlight. And after last game's nonsense, I'm confident that Brick doesn't need any help in getting himself killed if need be.

I accuse Raven

Egarwaen
11-14-2011, 11:44 AM
Hoo boy, command prompt. Let's see..

>dance crazy

Kayma danced crazy!

> Acquire keys

Your keys go off! There's bullets flying everywhere! It looks like you managed to hit an innocent bystander, probably someone who was delivering busts! On the other hand, maybe he should've been trying to help pin down the cadre of criminals threatening your fair city rather than doing the jazz boogie in the hall outside your office!

I accuse Kayma!

Umby
11-14-2011, 01:32 PM
>Tear yourself away from Elf Dress-up RPG

From the little that's happened so far, it does look like Raven's trying to get Brickroad in the spotlight. And after last game's nonsense, I'm confident that Brick doesn't need any help in getting himself killed if need be.

I accuse Raven

>Look at pile-up of votes on Raven.

I'm not so sure that Raven is scum for just conjecturing why it would be good for the town to kill Brickroad. In fact, most of you guys who are jumping on that bandwagon are kind of silly - we want people to make suggestions and vote with their, uh, vote. But to kill Raven just because he's trying to stir up conversation, well, that's just silly. Why would the mafia want to kill a target that could easily kill himself AND would confuse the town?

Anyone and everyone who has voted for Raven so far looks suspect, and nodal's vote is pure bullshit. if nodal's not going to play this game, I don't think he should play the game. I vote for Nodal.

>Slowly slip back into the shade, and sip tea suavely.

dtsund
11-14-2011, 01:54 PM
> DTS: Elaborate on your earlier point.

You decide to build upon what you said earlier. Historically, in most of our games, there has been no daychat between members of the Mafia, and you see no reason to believe it is any different for the Midnight Crew. Therefore, you suspect that most of them simply want to survive the first day so they can begin forming more elaborate plans, and if sending the discussion down pointless blind alleys helps to accomplish that, they'll certainly do that.

You think it might be possible that Raven was actually accusing Brickroad in good faith, but that his given reasoning stinks of a Midnight Crew member trying to spark Weird Debate Shit.

You tell this to the other members of the group in your most hard-boiled manner.

McClain
11-14-2011, 02:00 PM
> Consider Suspects

You can't really imagine a member of the Midnight Crew pushing this hard for Brickroad this early. Raven reads more aggressive townie. That doesn't, however, reflect on Brickroad one way or the other. His lack of response strikes you as odd. You recognize that he's probably changing his style after the last few games, but you're not sure if you like this quiet treatment. And you especially don't like him voting for you right off. Feels like a tell, and even innocent Brickroad should have known well enough to avoid it. You're not sure what game he is playing.

For your money, you wager that the bulk of the MC hasn't really acted yet. There's still plenty of people trying to keep quiet.

dtsund's first actions in the game were to jump on the Raven bandwagon. This seems less thoughtful than normal from him. You add him to your suspect list.

> Preview edit

Therefore, you suspect that most of them simply want to survive the first day so they can begin forming more elaborate plans, and if sending the discussion down pointless blind alleys helps to accomplish that, they'll certainly do that.

You wonder if the second point contradicts the first one. Raven is not exactly keeping a low profile.

Umby
11-14-2011, 02:00 PM
I have no idea what this means. Are you expecting Brickroad to literally kill himself somehow?[/QUOTE]

Not literally. And why stir the pot when Brickroad is doing so himself, RIGHT NOW? I don't think, last game, the mafia had much influence in starting the Brickroad Show. It just kind of happened. Just because Raven was saying that Brickroad would be a good first-day lynch if we had nobody else to lynch doesn't mean he was trying to stir up-

Well, perhaps he was trying. But I feel that it was more innocent than that, although now admittedly I'll pay more attention to Raven in the future. My point is that I don't see why the mafia would draw attention to itself by trying to do something suspicious day one?

And to reanswer your question, Brickroad LITERALLY SUICIDED LAST GAME. So I don't know whether you're being sarcastic or what.

Raven
11-14-2011, 02:04 PM
Let's look at this rationally.

Let's say that Mafia really wanted to waste a day by kicking up the Brickroad show.

What the hell is the benefit in this by doing this on Day 1, when people are far more likely to lynch somebody innocent who is just trying to be proactive?

What's the benefit to take such a risk drawing attention when there's only 4 of them, in day 1, just to get rid of 1 townie?

What's the benefit in this against lying low (which is extremely easy to do, I notice) and band-wagoning on any innocent who make a signifant move (and can always be spun as 'suspicious')?

What's the benefit of going all guns blazing on Brickroad, who as a Town, can be used as a much more potent distraction later in a more crucial time?

Making a significant vote and accusation on Day 1 is suspicious? Well, circling around like vultures and building up momentum for a guy who did it is far more suspicious in my eyes.

FAKE EDIT: Well, at least somebody noticed the same thing.

Umby
11-14-2011, 02:10 PM
>Look at previous posts.

(admittedly, this is because the posts were in two different contexts.

First context was that Raven was coming out, guns blazing with votes at Brickroad. I didn't like that because it was stupid to lynch Brickroad so quickly. Second context was that people were voting for Raven because of it, which I also think is stupid. Nothing in there contradicts the other, Nich, although Raven or you could easily be mafia.)

Red Hedgehog
11-14-2011, 02:11 PM
Throw me on the "Raven hasn't done anything suspicious" bandwagon. Seems like he was just throwing stuff at the wall to see what stuck. Which is pretty much all you can do on day one. Honestly the people who come off as most suspicious to me are those who make short posts and throw in an accusation.

Mogri
11-14-2011, 02:23 PM
>Investigate Raven

You see two actual arguments against Raven: the mention of no-lynch and the Brickroad suggestion. You're not sure how things usually go down around this joint, but you've never seen no-lynch actually work for the good guys. As for the Brickroad plan, while that's a really awful way to treat a player, there's still this:

The previous two times--the only two times--he made a joke vote on McClain as his first relevant move, he turned out to be a Mafia. You noticed he did the same thing this time around.

You can understand the anti-Raven sentiment and wouldn't be opposed to a Raven lynch, but you don't see Raven as a great target for now.

>Investigate dtsund

You're currently accusing this dtsund character. Now that he's posted, you're forced to re-examine the evidence. In fact, each of the three players who hadn't posted as of yesterday have posted now. Looking at the list of suspects, you're inclined to agree with Egarwaen's take on Kayma. You're sure that giving Kayma the third degree will "encourage" him to do more than dance.

You accuse Kayma.

Raven
11-14-2011, 02:34 PM
Now I really, really hope Raven's in the MC so I can look back at your backpedaling here and laugh and laugh.

I don't know, this one seems so much funnier:

This reasoning is so much sounder than I was expecting that I have no idea why you were so reluctant to share it to begin with. I'll probably move my vote off you if something better comes up, but nothing has. Mogri and schep seem more bumbling than shady. Oh well, I'll keep an eye on Brickroad and if I think you're right, maybe I'll join you there.

Umby, last game the town wasted a whole day on The Brickroad Show despite his best efforts to stop it, because the Mafia wanted it that way. Go back and reread the Mafia night chat logs from M15--which you were a part of already, so you should know--and look at how they discuss deliberately starting it up with the intent of making the town chase its tail.

There's stirring up discussion and there's stirring up shit. People are voting for Raven because making the case for Brickroad has historically been the latter.


Nich, I have no idea if you're just wishy-washy or extremely dirty. Probably the latter. But, I think I have a better target for now.

> DTS: Elaborate on your earlier point.

You decide to build upon what you said earlier. Historically, in most of our games, there has been no daychat between members of the Mafia, and you see no reason to believe it is any different for the Midnight Crew. Therefore, you suspect that most of them simply want to survive the first day so they can begin forming more elaborate plans, and if sending the discussion down pointless blind alleys helps to accomplish that, they'll certainly do that.

You think it might be possible that Raven was actually accusing Brickroad in good faith, but that his given reasoning stinks of a Midnight Crew member trying to spark Weird Debate Shit.

You tell this to the other members of the group in your most hard-boiled manner.

The timing of his accusation, as well as that extremely weak and self-conflicting argument, sealed the deal for me.

I retract my accusation on Brickroad

I accuse Dtsund

....I also have my eyes on Kayma, Destil, and Nodal, for what it's worth. Incidentally, hats off to you, Mr. Brickroad, if you're a Mafia. That was a really, really, smart move as a Mafia. If you're innocent, though....let's just say you had proven your lack of worth, at least for now.

dtsund
11-14-2011, 02:36 PM
> DTS: Be the Hard-Boiled Spambot.

You are now the HBS.

You wonder if the second point contradicts the first one. Raven is not exactly keeping a low profile.

> HBS: Respond to this query.

This means what, exactly? There have been plenty of Mafia in the past who've shown aggressive play.

McClain
11-14-2011, 02:39 PM
>
This means what, exactly? There have been plenty of Mafia in the past who've shown aggressive play.

> Respond

"No shit" you think to yourself. But DTS' point seemed to be that mafia would lay low, and then he voted for someone for being aggressive. The internal logic of the statement didn't flow.

Raven
11-14-2011, 02:52 PM
You wonder if the second point contradicts the first one. Raven is not exactly keeping a low profile.



This means what, exactly? There have been plenty of Mafia in the past who've shown aggressive play.

First, you misinterpreted what he meant:

> DTS: Elaborate on your earlier point.

You decide to build upon what you said earlier. Historically, in most of our games, there has been no daychat between members of the Mafia, and you see no reason to believe it is any different for the Midnight Crew. Therefore, you suspect that most of them simply want to survive the first day so they can begin forming more elaborate plans, and if sending the discussion down pointless blind alleys helps to accomplish that, they'll certainly do that.

You think it might be possible that Raven was actually accusing Brickroad in good faith, but that his given reasoning stinks of a Midnight Crew member trying to spark Weird Debate Shit.

You tell this to the other members of the group in your most hard-boiled manner.

Second, I will be very interested if you can show me the hard proof from the past when on a Mafia member being the most aggressive person on Day 1. Because I'm pretty sure I can come up with plenty more proof of aggressive innocent being lynched on Day 1.

Raven
11-14-2011, 03:05 PM
So, what exactly was Brick's move that you're referring to here? Being talked about?

No, completely refraining from responding to my accusation, thus drawing away the attention from him (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191189&postcount=66)

Mogri
11-14-2011, 03:18 PM
>Investigate Brickroad

Raven seems to have missed one important detail of that post: No one mentioned that "townie" was the official name of the "townie" role. Brick could only have known that if he had access to the townie PM.

Of course, as you've mentioned before, it's not impossible that the Midnight Crew has the text of that PM.

Mogri
11-14-2011, 03:30 PM
quotes


Okay, if you can deliver on the flavor, I'd be all about some Problem Sleuth Mafia. Gotta change the roles to character names, though.
Oh, of course!

But I don't care to reveal those now because some people (like me) will be jackasses and try to exploit it!

Mogri
11-14-2011, 03:31 PM
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1182241&postcount=5660)

Destil
11-14-2011, 03:44 PM
Raven seems to have missed one important detail of that post: No one mentioned that "townie" was the official name of the "townie" role. Brick could only have known that if he had access to the townie PM.Holy fuck, people. Can we maybe put this role PM BS away for a while? It was really clever once, yeah. But Sol, of all people, isn't letting us get away with that shit. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he gave the mafia fake role PMs this game.

Hell, most of it is in the opening post, I don't even see myself giving Yimmers any extra credibility over knowing this...

botticus
11-14-2011, 03:46 PM
No, completely refraining from responding to my accusation, thus drawing away the attention from him (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191189&postcount=66)
In other words his action was relative inaction. Gotcha. By the way Raven, my question to you about whether you had your own TT mafia wiki was actually something I'm curious to know the answer to.

If my first day on the new job is any indication, my historical pattern of being more active in mafia during the work day is no longer going to be the case, but thankfully not too much is going on yet.

Raven
11-14-2011, 03:51 PM
>Investigate Brickroad

Raven seems to have missed one important detail of that post: No one mentioned that "townie" was the official name of the "townie" role. Brick could only have known that if he had access to the townie PM.

Of course, as you've mentioned before, it's not impossible that the Midnight Crew has the text of that PM.

PREVIEW EDIT: Er, yeah, what Nich pointed out.

Though this whole Role PM thing got me thinking. Sol obviously knows there is a huge possibility of Townies taking advantage of their Role PM's text, but the fact that he had not done an obvious preventive measure struck me as odd. Therefore, yeah, I strongly believe that he had given the MC the knowledge of Townie Role PM, which would indeed make the game more interesting.

That said, I still tend to believe in Yimothy's PM reveal. It is more likely that the possibility of MC knowing the Townie PM just didn't cross his mind, as I think that an MC would wait for a far more crucial moment to fake-reveal rather than just swinging out on his first post. (although I might just be really desperate to believe in someone)

Mogri
11-14-2011, 03:53 PM
Holy fuck, people. Can we maybe put this role PM BS away for a while? It was really clever once, yeah. But Sol, of all people, isn't letting us get away with that shit. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that he gave the mafia fake role PMs this game.

Hell, most of it is in the opening post, I don't even see myself giving Yimmers any extra credibility over knowing this...

>Next

You make a mental note: "Destil hates facts." Considering that this is his second post and the first was fluff, you'd expect him to offer something more useful than "Stop using the information you have."

Destil
11-14-2011, 03:59 PM
>Next

You make a mental note: "Destil hates facts." Considering that this is his second post and the first was fluff, you'd expect him to offer something more useful than "Stop using the information you have."No, I'm making an assumption based on the fact that the GM was heavily involved in this absurd method of using facts in previous games. We're not catching any mafia that way this game, we're going to have to do it the old fashion way, dumb luck and lots of circular shouting.

The only people who have facts about what the non-townie role PMs look like are mafia and our specials. So if you're using 'facts' for what Brickroad knows or doesn't know, 4-3 odds say you should be lynched...

Raven
11-14-2011, 04:00 PM
In other words his action was relative inaction. Gotcha. By the way Raven, my question to you about whether you had your own TT mafia wiki was actually something I'm curious to know the answer to.

If my first day on the new job is any indication, my historical pattern of being more active in mafia during the work day is no longer going to be the case, but thankfully not too much is going on yet.

Oh yeah, I forgot to answer that question before. No, I'm not really that dedicated. I only have data about Brickroad, which I gathered just after this game started. It really didn't take a long time, especially since I read all the threads during the course of the two last Mafia games and still had a relatively strong memory of how they went.

McClain
11-14-2011, 04:21 PM
> Gather evidence for Mogri:


"Confirms" Yimothy

Votes Poetfox for packing heat.

Asks about something called "daychat"


>Next

You make a mental note: "Destil hates facts." Considering that this is his second post and the first was fluff, you'd expect him to offer something more useful than "Stop using the information you have."

> Update "Mogri File"

You review your notes for this Mogri character and add a note about distorting statements to make a gross TV news scary sounding sound bite. You think you are prepared to take action.

> Accuse

"I accuse Mogri!"

> Immediately couch accusation

You immediately undermind the impact your accusation by noting that you will start to lean much more heavily on these quiet motherfuckers who have barely posted and/or not voted in the final 24 hours.

botticus
11-14-2011, 04:30 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot to answer that question before. No, I'm not really that dedicated. I only have data about Brickroad, which I gathered just after this game started. It really didn't take a long time, especially since I read all the threads during the course of the two last Mafia games and still had a relatively strong memory of how they went.

Huh. Well, if you had done all that work during this thread I was ready to give you a free pass because I can't really envision a mafia putting that much time into it, but I'm not sure how to process your caveat in this context. I guess it's a wash.

I'm happy that my post last night seemed to spur the last three previously postless participants into action, and the two who came out swinging with votes have been similarly voted for. The third just let us know he was around, so I want to make sure he feels welcome.

I accuse Krakenbrau.


McClain, would you consider your couched vote for Mogri a... placeholder vote?

McClain
11-14-2011, 04:36 PM
McClain, would you consider your couched vote for Mogri a... placeholder vote?

> Send a response

"No. It is a serious vote that I stand by. But I was making a threat that I will quickly change to someone who seems to think they can just keep their head down until they get to talk to their MC buddies. As of this moment HALF the game has fewer posts than the GM, my personal bench-mark for participation. Unacceptable. So yes, I feel like Mogri is suspicious based on what he has said, but I find it more suspicious that some are still not talking."

Egarwaen
11-14-2011, 04:48 PM
> Send a response

"No. It is a serious vote that I stand by. But I was making a threat that I will quickly change to someone who seems to think they can just keep their head down until they get to talk to their MC buddies. As of this moment HALF the game has fewer posts than the GM, my personal bench-mark for participation. Unacceptable. So yes, I feel like Mogri is suspicious based on what he has said, but I find it more suspicious that some are still not talking."

Some of us got lynched last game for talking too much, and are understandably a little more cautious this time.

I've got a bunch of people that I find suspicious. I agree that Raven's a little off, but his logic regarding Brickroad seems sound, and Brickroad's participation is pretty low. I went into this wanting to give him an honest chance rather than having another "Brickroad show", and I'm starting to think I'll regret it. Moghri also smells funny.

But Kayma, Red Hedghog, and Krakenbrau are the most iffy by far. I'm not that bothered by people who swing by and drop in an accusation. I am bothered by - and suspicious of - people who just crap stuff out. One of the town's biggest mistakes in M15 was not lynching Heron as early as possible.

poetfox
11-14-2011, 05:02 PM
I've been wanting to post more because I know someone will crucify me if I don't post the EXACT RIGHT AMOUNT, but all I've been having to say is "Man, this is a super quiet day 1!" I assume it's because there's so little theorycrafting to do about the rules. Of course, then I come home from teaching and there's been developments and conversations.

Anyway... Guess I better do some thought-making.

I unvote for Raven.

In my head, I am starting to recall last time we lynched an innocent Raven, and it is really kind of seeming similar to now. To me, anyway. You all are welcome to hate on him some more, if you want.

Nich is being Nich.

McClain is being McClain.

Kayma is being Kayma which makes me nervous because that means he will never say a damn thing. We need to not forget about him. If we wanted to just knock him out now, I wouldn't be opposed, though one would hope we could come up with a better case first.

I don't buy Destil's picking a fight over Role PM bullshit making sense if he's Mafia, since he either has the information as Mafia, and would rather use it to bluff, or he wouldn't have it and wouldn't want to draw attention to PMs or whatnot. I guess it might work if Mogri is too, I guess? A little pre-set back and forth? But that would seem risky on such a quiet day like today, since it couldn't be planned ahead of time.

I am currently liking the Mogri lynch. I accuse Mogri. He is really, really focused on pointless bullshit and making us assume he's clean because he's "confirming" things as a townie. Which is just... yeah. I don't feel like I have a super-strong read on anyone, but I feel he's more likely than Raven at this point.

McClain
11-14-2011, 05:14 PM
> Next

As a fairly prolific poster you are puzzled by this "posting too much" talk. The only person you can think of who ever got lynched even partially for posting a lot was Guild when he was obviously trying to spam the thread. Other than that, volume isn't really a problem. Please, every one post more!

And then thinking about Guild makes you start to get another one of those headaches.

> Lie down for a bit...

Mogri
11-14-2011, 05:48 PM
> Next

As a fairly prolific poster you are puzzled by this "posting too much" talk. The only person you can think of who ever got lynched even partially for posting a lot was Guild when he was obviously trying to spam the thread. Other than that, volume isn't really a problem. Please, every one post more!

And then thinking about Guild makes you start to get another one of those headaches.

> Lie down for a bit...

>Point out votes

You mention that you would have fewer or no votes if you could keep your mouth shut. You further point out that McClain's vote for you undermines his request for more chatter.

>Question McClain

"Destil has now posted three times. Two of those posts contributed nothing and the third suggested that a 4/7 chance of lynching scum outweighed a 3/7 chance of lynching a town PR. Do you really find me suspect for calling him out on any of this?"

Raven
11-14-2011, 05:58 PM
As of this moment HALF the game has fewer posts than the GM, my personal bench-mark for participation. Unacceptable.

As of the time I wrote this:

Red Hedgehog 2 posts
Brickroad 2
The Giant Head 2
Kayma 1
Nodal 1
Krakenbrau 1

At this hour, I guess it's wise to vote not on the one who is most suspicious (partly because too many people being so goddamn suspicious to me), but on the one who made the least contribution.

Brick and Nodal had made accusations (although take note that those accusations are not very well-reasoned at all, and that those two are very high on my suspicion list as of now).

RH and TGH had cited real-life reasons for the low-posting, and along with Krakenbrau, had at least made their relevant game-related thoughts known.

Kayma....had done nothing except "dance crazily." Which might be useful in some social circles, but certainly not in here. Let's pile up some pressure on him and make him talk.

I retract my accusation on Dtsund (temporarily, and with both eyes still on him).

I accuse Kayma.

Kayma is being Kayma which makes me nervous because that means he will never say a damn thing.

Yeah, I can vaguely recall that Kayma's M.O is to stay as low as possible, regardless of his role. Which is handy for his own survival rate, but is far from helpful for the Town's cause. I might want to pull up some research on him. Later though, when I have more free time.

....and now I really have to get to work instead of keep investing too much time on this silly Internet game.

Yimothy
11-14-2011, 05:58 PM
>Marvel

You marvel at what Mogri's up to lately. Is he claiming that he's either a power role or a mobster? What a strange thing to do. And he's changed his tune regarding using role PMs to break the game. Yesterday it was all "breaking the game sucks, and the MC might have the PMs anyway", today he's like "why don't you wanna use the facts?".

>Vote

"I vote for Mogri"

McClain
11-14-2011, 06:15 PM
>Point out votes

You mention that you would have fewer or no votes if you could keep your mouth shut. You further point out that McClain's vote for you undermines his request for more chatter.

>Rebuttal

"It's not that you talking to much. It's that you are saying strange things. Maybe if more people talked they would also say strange things. Because that's how you catch mafia: Forcing them to slip. You are trying to create a false equivalence between talking a lot and saying suspicious things. If people got lynched for talking a lot my record would look very different."


>Question McClain

"Destil has now posted three times. Two of those posts contributed nothing and the third suggested that a 4/7 chance of lynching scum outweighed a 3/7 chance of lynching a town PR. Do you really find me suspect for calling him out on any of this?"

You note that you haven't ruled anyone out, and that your threat against "quiet people" was pretty open-ended. You wonder why mogri is so concered about destil in particular.

Mogri
11-14-2011, 06:26 PM
No, I'm making an assumption based on the fact that the GM was heavily i
only eople who have facts about what the non-townie role PMs look like are mafia and our specials. So if you're using 'facts' for what Brickroad knows or doesn't know, 4-3 odds say you should be lynched...

>Sigh

You wish Yims wouldn't put words into your mouth, especially not Destil's.

>Point out the obvious

The most likely place to catch scum on day one is out of plain sight. Pushing a Mogri lynch makes it safe for the lurkers to keep lurking.

>List suspects

The players you should be looking at most closely:
Red Hedgehog
Brickroad
The Giant Head
Kayma
Nodal
Krakenbrau
...for low post count, as well as the third and fourth members of my bandwagon, which is typically regarded as a safe spot for scum to hop on without attracting attention.

>Ask mod

Do modkills cause the end of a game day?

Mogri
11-14-2011, 06:33 PM
>Rebuttal

"It's not that you talking to much. It's that you are saying strange things. Maybe if more people talked they would also say strange things. Because that's how you catch mafia: Forcing them to slip. You are trying to create a false equivalence between talking a lot and saying suspicious things. If people got lynched for talking a lot my record would look very different."

>Facepalm

You point out that you can't say "strange things" if you're not saying anything at all. You find McClain's argument patently ridiculous.

You note that you haven't ruled anyone out, and that your threat against "quiet people" was pretty open-ended. You wonder why mogri is so concered about destil in particular.

You point out that this does not answer your question in the least.

Brickroad
11-14-2011, 06:36 PM
Brick and Nodal had made accusations (although take note that those accusations are not very well-reasoned at all

The reason for my accusation is I don't want McClain to play. I don't care if he's MC or not, I just want him fucking dead.

McClain
11-14-2011, 06:37 PM
>Scratch head

Why is Mogri asking about mod kills???

>Agree in part

You agree that everyone should look at the low posters and push them to post. You again point out that your vote is based on suspicions based on what has been said, but that you plan to try to force people to talk if they do not get active before the end of the day.

>Respond to Mogri RE: destil

"My issue with your accusation of destil is your saying "Destil hates facts." It set off several bullshit alarms."

McClain
11-14-2011, 06:39 PM
The reason for my accusation is I don't want McClain to play. I don't care if he's MC or not, I just want him fucking dead.

> Break character

Seriously, dude? Is this about the last game? If you are voting for me out of spite then you aren't helping the town.

Solitayre
11-14-2011, 06:40 PM
>Ask mod

Do modkills cause the end of a game day?



If a player is removed from the game for violating the rules, you may continue to discuss in the thread for the remainder of the day, but there will be no lynch at the end of the day.

Mogri
11-14-2011, 06:44 PM
>Scratch head

Why is Mogri asking about mod kills???

>Explain

It's a secret to everybody.

>Brick Brickroad

What in the world?

means all the Mafia have to do to stay out of the noose is go ahead and up the volume a little.

That sounds pretty much win-win.

Mogri
11-14-2011, 06:51 PM
Except for the part where we lynch townies...?

Townies who aren't helping the town. Notably, all they would need to do in order to avoid lynch is participate. Win-win.

McClain
11-14-2011, 06:51 PM
As for me, my operating theory right now is that when the Raven train picked up steam, Umby took the risk of stepping in to defend him for a good reason: Raven's their one powered guy. The flaw in this theory is that Roleblocker isn't really a strong enough role for Umby to stick their neck out for; it's not like the situation in M6 (I think?) where the Mafia lost their converter before he could ever act, bringing their numbers down by two. But it's the best I've got so far, and hell, no one says the Mafia always play perfectly necessarily.

"How often does the mafia know their powered roles at the start of the game? In the only game I rolled mafia to start we did NOT know until the first nightchat. I thought that was the way it normally worked."

> Have a sudden realization

If someone feels like their case is hopeless, they could violate the rules to suicide via modkill and prevent a lynch, but still let the day continue. You realize this is a pretty bizarre gambit if that's what mogri is planning, and you aren't really sure how it would be helpful. Plus, the tide could easily turn late in the day, so you really hope a townie wouldn't do something like that.

>Read Nich's post

Or mafia could dick over the town, too.

> Rage into the night!

Whatever is going on, you really wish people would stop playing this mod-kill bullshit and just play the fucking game!

botticus
11-14-2011, 06:54 PM
Can we maybe try to get through a game without a modkill?

Mogri
11-14-2011, 06:56 PM
> Have a sudden realization

If someone feels like their case is hopeless, they could violate the rules to suicide via modkill and prevent a lynch, but still let the day continue. You realize this is a pretty bizarre gambit if that's what mogri is planning, and you aren't really sure how it would be helpful. Plus, the tide could easily turn late in the day, so you really hope a townie wouldn't do something like that.

>Acknowledge

That was the idea, yes. If the day continued normally, modkill-suicide is the optimal move for a vanilla townie because it allows town another chance to catch scum. With Sol's ruling, it still might not be a terrible idea because it allows discussion between lynch and nightfall. Naturally, you would only actually do this when the day was almost over anyway.

>Address botticus

Only if it's in town's best interests to do so :)

Solitayre
11-14-2011, 07:10 PM
Current Vote Tallies

McClain: 1
Brickroad

poetfox: 0
Mogri

Brickroad: 0
Raven

Raven: 3
Nich
poetfox
dtsund
Nodal

Mogri: 4
schep
McClain
Poetfox
Yimothy

dtsund: 0
Mogri
Raven

Kayma: 3
Egarwaen
Mogri
Raven

Nodal: 1
Umby

Krakenbrau: 1
botticus

Day ends in 24 hours.

Brickroad
11-14-2011, 07:10 PM
Seriously, dude? Is this about the last game? If you are voting for me out of spite then you aren't helping the town.

Let the record show that this accusation comes from the same guy who said:

After Nodal and Brickroad both went down I kind of stopped giving a shit, which is why I turned up the attitude. At least I had a bit of fun in the tailspin.

You need to die. Right away. Violently. The sooner you die, the better our chances of being rid of you before you give up on us. If I were the vigilante, you would die tonight regardless. (And for all you know, I am.)

Also let the record show that I am having zero fun right now. All M16 has done for me so far is prove that people are going to twist themselves into unbelievable bullshit knots about me no matter what I say, or do, or to what degree. There is no possible defense against this kind of thing. It is the very height of "lynch that dude because he is that dude" -- exactly why you started the train against me in M15.

So you tell me, McC (assuming you haven't stopped giving a shit yet), how should I be productive to the town? What can I do to help my team, when my merest existence is enough to get people to shit themselves for two solid pages? Why shouldn't I just make random cheeseburger moves, if nothing I do can have any positive effect on the game?

And most importantly: what amazing Mafia feats have you pulled off, that you can criticize my playstyle? Is there something in your CV I'm missing? Because you've sucked pretty much always. You've been our #1 most aggressive poster for a few games now -- exactly the trail I blazed back in M1 through M3. Why should we not have a McClain Show, now?

Mogri
11-14-2011, 07:13 PM
Also let the record show that I am having zero fun right now. All M16 has done for me so far is prove that people are going to twist themselves into unbelievable bullshit knots about me no matter what I say, or do, or to what degree. There is no possible defense against this kind of thing. It is the very height of "lynch that dude because he is that dude" -- exactly why you started the train against me in M15.

>Agree

This is basically a sucky thing to do to a dude. Fortunately(?), you're around to take the heat off of him, right?

Brickroad
11-14-2011, 07:14 PM
>Agree

Go to bed. The grown-ups are talking.

Egarwaen
11-14-2011, 07:32 PM
So you tell me, McC (assuming you haven't stopped giving a shit yet), how should I be productive to the town? What can I do to help my team, when my merest existence is enough to get people to shit themselves for two solid pages? Why shouldn't I just make random cheeseburger moves, if nothing I do can have any positive effect on the game?

Don't make posts like that. They're counterproductive aggro-magnets. No-one but Raven has seriously accused you, and he explained why a page or so back and then moved his vote.

Umby
11-14-2011, 07:48 PM
Umby, I'm not sure where your accusation of Nodal is coming from. You claim Nodal isn't playing and the post is bullshit. Would you mind explaining why that's more bullshit than Brick accusing McClain's stupid face, or Kayma dancing? Why is Nodal the only one getting immediate shit from you for what seems to be similar if not worse activity.

>Tear yourself away from Elf Dress-up RPG

From the little that's happened so far, it does look like Raven's trying to get Brickroad in the spotlight. And after last game's nonsense, I'm confident that Brick doesn't need any help in getting himself killed if need be.

I accuse Raven

Give me one good reason that Nodal voted for Raven other than a bandwagon was going. He gives a weak reason like, "Brick could get himself killed!" Which to me just seems like he wanted a placeholder reason to vote. I see nothing there that says he felt Raven said something incriminating that makes any logical sense. It just feels like a bandwagon throwaway vote. And he's not coming out and defending it because he's afraid I'll see through his bullshit (perhaps).

Brickroad
11-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Don't make posts like that. They're counterproductive aggro-magnets. No-one but Raven has seriously accused you, and he explained why a page or so back and then moved his vote.

I didn't ask you. I asked McClain. And you didn't answer what I asked anyway.

You got killed last game because you dared to float some ideas. You admitted this game you're talking less because you fear a reprisal of your previous lynch. Last game, McC was at the forefront of "let's lynch people whose ideas we don't like".

Then he stopped giving a shit.

I want him dead right now. Don't like it? Lynch me instead.

Or let me go back to posting the bare minimum to avoid a modkill. I was fine playing it that way.

Umby
11-14-2011, 08:09 PM
Brickroad, why are you doing this again? Don't you want to cause the least amount of pain for the town? Seriously, dude, get your act together.

>Have Umby's brain explode from sheer irritation.

I understand why you're voting for McClain, but it doesn't speak well for you when you say outright that you're posting the main minimum on purpose, as well as having your FIRST POST just be voting for McClain (unless I am mistaken). Why are you going out of your way to be suspicious?

McClain
11-14-2011, 08:25 PM
> Compose a letter

"Dear Brickroad,

I'm sorry that you are so angry with me. I'm really not sure what I did to offend you so. I see that you are upset that I "stopped giving a shit" last game. Unfortunately, you are taking that quote out of context. I "stopped giving a shit" about playing nice. You may have noticed that it was after your spectacular suicide and Nodal's explosion that I started to be more aggressive, swear more, and push people to do some goddamn research instead of relying on powers.

I find it especially odd that you seem to be mostly angry at me for supposedly giving up last game when it was you who committed suicide.

So yes, the last game was frustrating. But it's been over for a long time, and I've gotten over it. It would be helpful if you would, too.

As for what I want you to do? Well, I just wanted you to post a bit more and explain your vote. Which you have, even if I think it's a weak reason. At least we have it on record.

If you aren't having fun, don't play the game. But don't blame me for it.

Sincerely,

-McClain"

Brickroad
11-14-2011, 08:30 PM
Because of posts like these, you chucklefuck:

This reasoning is so much sounder than I was expecting that I have no idea why you were so reluctant to share it to begin with.

You find yourself remember your past run-ins with Brickroad, and wonder if this really is part of a pattern, or just him fucking with you again.

Brickroad, take point and lead us to our victory, or you may just see a townie revolt.

I'm for killing Brick on principal before he games more innocent people into dying

And why stir the pot when Brickroad is doing so himself, RIGHT NOW?

Note that all these responses were made when I had posted exactly two lines in the thread. And that I didn't get them all.

Most townies who win this game win by contributing nothing but a +1 vote. Pure numbers thing. Not everyone is Idea Guy or Power Guy. I wanted to play this game like that. (Not much fun, but then, merely enjoying myself is suspicious!)

I would love to just fade into the background and be a +1 vote, but other players are denying me that. You especially, Umby -- you have now officially blasted me for being too quiet and for speaking my mind. In your eyes, I can neither be quiet nor loud.

Yimothy
11-14-2011, 08:39 PM
>Retract the words you put in Mogri's mouth

You take back what you thought about Mogri claiming to be either powered or mafia. In retrospect, he was talking about someone else's perspective, not his own. You're gonna let what you thought about his changing his position on the exploitation of role PMs stand though. You think it's suspicious that he only responded to the part of your accusation he could easily refute, ignoring the rest. Perhaps he's trying to distract your attention from that part of what you said?

McClain
11-14-2011, 08:44 PM
I would love to just fade into the background and be a +1 vote, but other players are denying me that.

> Roll eyes

You muse that this would seem to be really hard to do when his first and only post for much of the day was an opening unsubstantiated spite vote.

> Ignore Brickroad

If Brick's feeling insecure about how much attention he's getting then you decide to go ahead and just ignore him.

> Consider Kayma

God damn you'd like to vote for Kayma, but Mogri has been acting so twitchy today. You shuffle him to the top of your list to deal with tomorrow if things don't change.

Brickroad
11-14-2011, 08:44 PM
AUTO-PARRY!

I note you didn't answer a single one of my questions.

Can I go back to lurking now? Are we done with this bullshit?

Destil
11-14-2011, 09:01 PM
"Destil has now posted three times. Two of those posts contributed nothing and the third suggested that a 4/7 chance of lynching scum outweighed a 3/7 chance of lynching a town PR. Do you really find me suspect for calling him out on any of this?"

Holy fuck. We win by killing mafia. Not keeping power roles alive. If you're a power role and you're up for a day one lynch you reveal.

If you're the angel you die. Oh, well. May not be worth it to reveal in this single cases since you can't protect yourself and the power is mostly psychological.

If you're any other roll then the angel protects you and you don't die. We get a day for you to work and prove you're whatever role you claim and can reassess from there.

So if your question is "Given the choice, could I know the name of every non-townie and restrict lynches to only those players." The answers is "yes, because I like winning."

Mogi seems more self-assuredly stupid than dirty to me, for what it's worth.

I accuse Kayma. I've played and GMed enough games with him to know he won't be doing anything of note unless he's a power role. In which case see the above.

Destil
11-14-2011, 09:06 PM
Wait, is this for real? So if the Mafia manages to pull a Solitayre and blow the whistle on a townie, we also lose our daily chance at taking one of them down?

Remember in M12 when it was in our best interests to let Merus get modkilled day one because it would force the lynch onto a hapless townie and not cost us anything extra?

This cuts both ways.

Mogri
11-14-2011, 09:12 PM
God damn you'd like to vote for Kayma, but Mogri has been acting so twitchy today.

>Quote Max

"I'm a coffee achiever, Sam!"

You think it's suspicious that he only responded to the part of your accusation he could easily refute, ignoring the rest.

>Answer the rest

Oh, that. There's no contradiction there. When Yimothy pseudo-revealed, you commented on it. When Brick pseudo-pseudo-revealed, you commented on that, too. That doesn't mean that you're going to participate in the PM reveal game. Further, you recall that Sol has sent you a PM specifically pleading that you not abusively metagame. You realize Sol has put some time into preparing this game and respect his wishes.

...while simultaneously mentioning the PM. Well, that's not abusive, right?

Destil
11-14-2011, 09:17 PM
>Invoke the word of god.

Solitare: If two players die in one night do we know if one's a mafia target and one's a vigilante target?

If a player is protected from being killed is that public knowledge?

Destil
11-14-2011, 09:20 PM
I guess. It just seems to me, based on the modkills being used as weapons by the Mafia in the last couple of games, that this could really screw us over. I never like the idea of losing a lynch for tempo reasons; if the Mafia essentially gets to "call" the modkill and then gets a nightkill on top of that, it's really damaging.

Man, all this talk of PM info and deliberate modkill suicides is kind of weirding me out.

Yeah, when did this game become Abusing the Rules: The Forum Game? And hell, that's coming from me.

Solitayre
11-14-2011, 09:29 PM
>Invoke the word of god.

You expend the necessary ELF TEARS to summon Solitayre from his mysterious realm. He is somewhat upset that you misspelled his name, but politely answers your questions.


If two players die in one night do we know if one's a mafia target and one's a vigilante target?



If a player is killed at night, it will not be public knowledge as to which faction did the killing.


If a player is protected from being killed is that public knowledge?
Yes.

Yimothy
11-14-2011, 10:47 PM
>Be Mogri

Further, you recall that Sol has sent you a PM specifically pleading that you not abusively metagame.

>Be Yimothy

I find this very hard to believe. I abusively metagamed in my first post, and I've received no warnings. Which post prompted this message? Why warn you, instead of the whole thread?

>Continue to vote Mogri

You're already doing that!

Mogri
11-14-2011, 10:57 PM
>Be Mogri



>Be Yimothy



>Continue to vote Mogri

You're already doing that!

>Explain

It was specifically regarding the suicide-modkill strategy. Granted, that's not the same type of metagaming we were discussing, but Sol's quote I quoted makes his stance on the issue clear.

Do I need to quote the PM? :)

Kayma
11-14-2011, 11:41 PM
> Vote Mogri

"I accuse Mogri." you say calmly, after several hours of silently break dancing. You know this will probably cause everyone to jump off Mogri or Raven or whomever, because your quietness is suspicious. And breaking that silence? Tantamount to wearing an "I <3 THE MIDNIGHT CLUB" t-shirt and walking into town. It's much the same way Brickroad's boisterousness is suspicious, you guess.

These Talking Timers are all about the meta game, but you're not sure what about the metagame, exactly. Act quiet, you're bad. Talk a lot, you're bad. Act like you've been in previous games, you're bad. Act different from previous games? Yeah, that's bad.

>Go back to watching

You fill up your water bottle, remove your soiled sweatband, and decide to be a wallflower for a bit. Will you be lynched for doing nothing in particular? Maybe, maybe not... but you should watch these characters closely, just in case they give you the chance.

Yimothy
11-15-2011, 03:03 AM
>Be Nich

Maybe you haven't run the numbers like I have, but we have fewer chances than usual to get it right. The worst case scenario for this game (involving a failed lynch every day, a failed vigilante kill every night, and no successful angel protections) is pretty damn bad:

>Be Yimothy

It's not mentioned in the OP, so you can't be certain, but in the original pitch (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1182236&postcount=5658) the vigilante only gets a kill every second night, so you think the worst case scenario is not quite so bad as this. Still pretty bad, though!

>Be Mogri

Again? Geez!

That was the idea, yes. If the day continued normally, modkill-suicide is the optimal move for a vanilla townie because it allows town another chance to catch scum. With Sol's ruling, it still might not be a terrible idea because it allows discussion between lynch and nightfall. Naturally, you would only actually do this when the day was almost over anyway.

>Be Yimothy

Your biggest problem with this is that it's cheating. Someone who is deliberately breaking the rules is not playing the same game as everyone else, and so it's not possible for them to win that game. You think a modkill should be considered a disqualification: even if someone takes an action that wins the game for their team, if they're deliberately breaking the rules to do it they can't be considered to have won the game.

Your second biggest problem with this is that it's only really game-breaking for the mafia. Let's face it: the town, given another chance to lynch, is probably just going to lynch another townie. And the potential cheater in this scenario doesn't know if getting themselves modkilled will result in the death of another innocent or not. A mafioso, on the other hand, can look at the person coming second in the vote and then decide whether or not it's advantageous to get them lynched.

>Be Mogri

>Explain

It was specifically regarding the suicide-modkill strategy. Granted, that's not the same type of metagaming we were discussing, but Sol's quote I quoted makes his stance on the issue clear.

Do I need to quote the PM? :)

>Be Yimothy.

You assume Mogri is referring to this quote he quoted (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191733&postcount=92), since it's the only one you can find. To you, it seems like Sol is trying to implement his game in such a way that it's difficult to exploit. You don't really see what that has to do with Mogri deliberately breaking the rules. You wish Mogri would explain his point when he quotes someone! At the time it seemed like he was making a point in relation to Nich's immediately preceding post, to say that the roles should have PS character names attached. Now you guess he was trying to discourage gaming the roles? You guess it's probably just coincidence that the same quote can cover two things.

>Save Mogri some time.

You decide to save Mogri some time, and quote the PM he received yourself.

Your VIM is admirable, but if you keep abusively metagaming, you won't like what happens.

Of course, you haven't actually seen this PM, but you think your imitation demonstrates that Mogri wouldn't need to have seen it either to be able to quote it well enough for the thread.

Yimothy
11-15-2011, 03:11 AM
>Screw up your revision of the worst case scenario

You did that already!

>Actually do the numbers on the worst case scenario

You modify Nich's worst case scenario to account for the vigilante only being able to kill every second night:

Day 1: 14 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to lynch
Night 1: 13 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to vig, 1 to MC
Day 2: 11 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to lynch
Night 2: 10 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to MC
Day 3: 9 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to lynch
Night 3: 8 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to vig, 1 to MC
Day 4: 6 townies, 4 MC - Lose 1 to lynch
Night 4: 5 townies, 4MC - Lose 1 to nightkill

And the town lose at the start of day five, with no way to not lose at the start of night four. So functionally, it's no different from the scenario Nich presented.

Solitayre
11-15-2011, 07:26 AM
Your VIM is admirable, but if you keep abusively metagaming, you won't like what happens.]
Of course, you haven't actually seen this PM, but you think your imitation demonstrates that Mogri wouldn't need to have seen it either to be able to quote it well enough for the thread.

You are appalled at this brazen and ineffectual attempt to impersonate you. Clearly this Yimothy character must have a very meager IMAGINATION stat!

You think this would be a good time to mention that directly posting or quoting private correspondence with the GM is still forbidden like it always is. You may still claim that the GM sent you anything you like, but you may not directly post it. You realize that this is your own stupid fault because you did not inscribe this upon your RULES MANIFESTO with your QUILL SCYTHE. You didn't think things like this needed to be mentioned since it was so obvious. You probably should have known better.

Current Vote Tallies

McClain: 1
Brickroad

poetfox: 0
Mogri

Brickroad: 0
Raven

Raven: 3
Nich
poetfox
dtsund
Nodal

Mogri: 5
schep
McClain
Poetfox
Yimothy
Kayma

dtsund: 0
Mogri
Raven

Kayma: 5
Egarwaen
Mogri
Raven
TheGiantHead
Destil

Nodal: 1
Umby

Krakenbrau: 1
botticus

Day ends in 12 hours.

Mogri
11-15-2011, 07:54 AM
> Vote Mogri

"I accuse Mogri." you say calmly, after several hours of silently break dancing. You know this will probably cause everyone to jump off Mogri or Raven or whomever, because your quietness is suspicious. And breaking that silence? Tantamount to wearing an "I <3 THE MIDNIGHT CLUB" t-shirt and walking into town. It's much the same way Brickroad's boisterousness is suspicious, you guess.

These Talking Timers are all about the meta game, but you're not sure what about the metagame, exactly. Act quiet, you're bad. Talk a lot, you're bad. Act like you've been in previous games, you're bad. Act different from previous games? Yeah, that's bad.

>Go back to watching

You fill up your water bottle, remove your soiled sweatband, and decide to be a wallflower for a bit. Will you be lynched for doing nothing in particular? Maybe, maybe not... but you should watch these characters closely, just in case they give you the chance.

>Next

You can't fathom why you're tied for votes with this clown. He could at least have bothered explaining his vote.

>Gather evidence for Mogri

- Placed a randvote at game start. TT Mafia doesn't do RVS, noob!
- Claimed to be town. Very incriminating.
- Asked about daychat. It's like the second coming of Guild here!

You must be missing something here. With two players outright saying that they're posting the bare minimum, you're at a loss to explain the current vote count.

Krakenbrau
11-15-2011, 08:11 AM
>Next

You can't fathom why you're tied for votes with this clown. He could at least have bothered explaining his vote.

>Gather evidence for Mogri

- Placed a randvote at game start. TT Mafia doesn't do RVS, noob!
- Claimed to be town. Very incriminating.
- Asked about daychat. It's like the second coming of Guild here!

You must be missing something here. With two players outright saying that they're posting the bare minimum, you're at a loss to explain the current vote count.

That's because Day 1 is really about paying attention to what people say, spurring those who aren't saying anything into action, and making accusations when you feel you've spotted something suspicious. Clearly, those who voted for you and Kayma feel like they have (or are MC).

That being said, I must apologize for my own lack of input so far. I have been reading the thread and following along. I can imagine The Brick Show is really lame for the man himself, and guess what? I hate it too, and don't really have anything to say about it except that it's garbage.

All this talk of deliberate modkill-suicide has me feeling queasy. Is that really the way we're gonna play, guys?

I accuse Mogri for that degradation.

McClain
11-15-2011, 09:25 AM
> Vote Mogri

"I accuse Mogri." you say calmly, after several hours of silently break dancing. You know this will probably cause everyone to jump off Mogri or Raven or whomever, because your quietness is suspicious. And breaking that silence? Tantamount to wearing an "I <3 THE MIDNIGHT CLUB" t-shirt and walking into town. It's much the same way Brickroad's boisterousness is suspicious, you guess.

These Talking Timers are all about the meta game, but you're not sure what about the metagame, exactly. Act quiet, you're bad. Talk a lot, you're bad. Act like you've been in previous games, you're bad. Act different from previous games? Yeah, that's bad.

>Go back to watching

You fill up your water bottle, remove your soiled sweatband, and decide to be a wallflower for a bit. Will you be lynched for doing nothing in particular? Maybe, maybe not... but you should watch these characters closely, just in case they give you the chance.

> Throw a pity party

You wonder what the hell has gotten into people this game. Must be something in the whiskey.

> Compose a message

"Kayma, I'm not going to vote for you for being too quiet, or for breaking a silence, or any other imagined offences or slimy "meta-gaming." You could, in all seriousness, post exactly one well-crafted sentence with one well-reasoned vote per game day and it's possible people would accept it.

The problem I have is that you made a joke post and vanished for 48 hours, then came back, jumped on a bandwagon that could save your life, didn't explain your vote, bitched about the game, and then said you would go silent again.

So here's how you can get me to possibly not vote for you: Explain your vote. Tell us some other suspects. Give us your opinion on, well, ANYTHING."

> Change vote

"I accuse Kayma"

Raven
11-15-2011, 10:04 AM
> Activate Hard-Boiled Mode!

> Appraise situation

~As of now, the top two vote-getters are:

1) A suicide bomber obsessed with Role PM shenanigans and had advanced some sort of crazy horrible plan involving mod-kill.

2) The bastard child of Sofia Boutella and Solid Snake.

It is very tempting for you to switch your vote to 1), if only so that he may fully concentrate on his fascinating ADOM LP instead of bumbling all over the place here. However, you sincerely think that despite his best efforts to look as suspicious as possible, he is just a newcomer having trouble to adapt in his first TT Mafia rodeo. Really, you have a hard time believing that a member of 4-man Mafia team would be the most prolific poster on Day 1 AND keep on posting despite votes gradually piling up on him.

If anything, 2)'s wall-flowering and lack of reasoning behind his vote made you feel much more wary. You decided to keep your current vote on him while monitoring how the final few hours of the day go.

Other relevant happenings to note:

~Endless rule-gaming talk between Mog and Yimothy. If both are still here tomorrow, you expect them to stop hammering on the issue.

~A hysterical broad seemed to start a weird and distracting lovers' quarrel with some dude who give him too much shit and/or stopped giving a shit. Or something.

~There are some suspicious activity involving vote-bandwagoning, and a couple of figures who quickly fade into background when the merest amount of pressure was being applied on them. However, with the lack of proof, those guys are really hard to pin down. You sure hoped the Investigator had noticed the same thing...

Raven
11-15-2011, 12:42 PM
......Wait. Sorry for the double post (the thread's been eerily quiet for a while), but this is kind of important.

.......Am I crazy here, or that Krakenbrau actually looks more fishy than either Kayma or Mogri?

Kraken's 2 posts:

> K-Bro: Ponder Brickroad Show.

You realize that, while you were expecting some general distraction and derailment regarding The Bricky One, you did not expect it to begin so soon. It does look a bit like Raven's trying to kickstart the show. (1)

> K-Bro: Lynch Raven!

You want to, but quickly realize your track record when it comes to Midnight Crew/Outsider detection is pretty abysmal. You decide to hang back, and try to use your vote more wisely. (2)

That's because Day 1 is really about paying attention to what people say, spurring those who aren't saying anything into action, and making accusations when you feel you've spotted something suspicious. Clearly, those who voted for you and Kayma feel like they have (or are MC).

That being said, I must apologize for my own lack of input so far. I have been reading the thread and following along. (3) I can imagine The Brick Show is really lame for the man himself, and guess what? I hate it too, and don't really have anything to say about it except that it's garbage.

All this talk of deliberate modkill-suicide has me feeling queasy. Is that really the way we're gonna play, guys?

I accuse Mogri for that degradation (4).

(1) Parroting a reasoning that is already weak to start with.
(2) Pointless hand-wringing + showing desire not to commit early and risk later repercussion.
(3) Well then, why not posted? Further, there has not been any actual Brickroad Show going, and no one even has a vote on him now.
(4) Bandwagon ahoy!

And, finally:

K-Bro's Day 1 post count in M15 (as an innocent): 27
K-Bro's Day 1 (with only few hours left) now: 2

Granted, that game involved some theory-crafting and Role PM clarifications, but goddamn if it's not some extreme change of behavior there.

Don't take it wrong, I'm still liking Kayma as a lynch, but I wanted to give him the benefit of doubt because going Super Stealth Mode is how he plays every time. As for Mogri...well, see above post.

So yeah...want to hear the others' opinions on this and if there are enough people agreeing to lynch Kraken instead.

dtsund
11-15-2011, 12:49 PM
> HBS: DEBATE OPERANDI -> RESPOND

~There are some suspicious activity involving vote-bandwagoning, and a couple of figures who quickly fade into background when the merest amount of pressure was being applied on them. However, with the lack of proof, those guys are really hard to pin down. You sure hoped the Investigator had noticed the same thing...

You regard Raven coldly.

If you're talking about me, I just haven't had much to say. As far as I'm concerned, your defense (as well as the defense from McClain, which I haven't ignored) may as well not have existed, for all the argumentative power it had. And the thing about the Brickroad Show, which you personally did a very good job of jumpstarting to a rather crazy degree (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191933&postcount=136), is that if it gets started one day, it's likely to persist. He's unlikely to be lynched directly because of it, which means it can just serve to dominate our discourse for several days.

Given that you seem to have amassed a good deal of information on the fellow leading up to this game, I find myself doubting that this outcome was unexpected. No, I'm not entirely, 100% sure you're in the Midnight Crew, but you are the one person I'm most suspicious of, which is why I'm keeping my vote on you.

dtsund
11-15-2011, 12:52 PM
> HBS: ANNOYANCE REGIME -> DOUBLE POST

(2) Pointless hand-wringing + showing desire not to commit early and risk later repercussion.

So yeah...want to hear the others' opinions on this and if there are enough people agreeing to lynch Kraken instead.

Raven
11-15-2011, 01:24 PM
Okay. You (dtsund)...decided to ignore every other points in my last post and focusing to nit-pick on a single aspect that would enforce your distrust on me.

Let's assume I'm an MC. As of now, two people are leading w/ the votes, but I'm still not that far behind. It is just so goddamn idiotic for me to keep talking and fingering another person so far behind the votes.

Why I made that Kraken post? Because I'm a Townie, and it's far more important for me to finger the most likely suspect instead of covering my own ass. Why I didn't switch vote to Kraken right away? Because I'm also pretty sure with my current Kayma vote, and would like a second opinion on my suspicion of Kraken.

I have opinions on this whole bullshit about "setting up and running a Brick Show", but it's really not relevant now. Tomorrow, if I survive.

you are the one person I'm most suspicious of

....any thoughts about so many other non-Brickroad-related things that happened today? No? Then I want you dead later.

Er, not literally!

dtsund
11-15-2011, 01:29 PM
....any thoughts about so many other non-Brickroad-related things that happened today? No? Then I want you dead later.

Do I have any special thoughts about the standard Day 1 flailing? Not particularly, no.

Raven
11-15-2011, 01:44 PM
Do I have any special thoughts about the standard Day 1 flailing? Not particularly, no.

People already mentioned that we have very limited amount of time to win this game. Dismissing everything that happened today as "Day 1 flailing" is a goddamn mistake, did you even remember Eddie on M15--

Oh. I think I see what you're doing now. Forget it.

Everyone else? Focus on what is relevant right now. Which is the current lynch situation.

Krakenbrau
11-15-2011, 02:00 PM
(1) Parroting a reasoning that is already weak to start with.

It really kinda looked like you were trying to derail us with the Brickroad business. It doesn't really look that way now, though.

As for the 'parroting' business... Is it considered Mafia behaviour to agree with someone else? In order to prove my innocence, should every single post of mine contain absolutely no opinions already voiced by others?


(2) Pointless hand-wringing + showing desire not to commit early and risk later repercussion.

I really am worried about my Mafia-detection skills. That wasn't pointless hand-wringing. It was very deliberate hand-wringing.

Basically what I was saying is while I agreed that some of what you said looked suspicious, I wasn't really sold on lynching you today.


(3) Well then, why not posted? Further, there has not been any actual Brickroad Show going, and no one even has a vote on him now.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was trying to say that I've been reading and following along, but so much of what was being said was total trash and I had nothing to contribute. Brickroad business included.


(4) Bandwagon ahoy!


Yup. You caught me voting for a popular lynch target. I guess that just goes to show that I agree with what's been said, and think his eagerness to abuse the rules, while not necessarily Mafia behaviour, is stupid.


And, finally:

K-Bro's Day 1 post count in M15 (as an innocent): 27
K-Bro's Day 1 (with only few hours left) now: 2

M15 was my very first Mafia game, ever, and I was pretty damn excited. If you'll notice, later on in that game my daily post count dropped drastically. So far, this game hasn't grabbed my attention nearly as much (although it's beginning to!). Also, I didn't even think I would be playing in this game. The signups were full, so I put myself in as an alternate, not really expecting to get a role PM a few days later. And then, Skyrim happened.

Mogri
11-15-2011, 02:14 PM
while not necessarily Mafia behaviour

>Blink, Rub Eyes

No, you read it right. He's voting for you because he doesn't like how you play. Oh, and also unspecified other reasons.

If you weren't so intent on, you know, participating in the game, you could get away with this kind of thing too.

dtsund
11-15-2011, 02:39 PM
> Next.

People already mentioned that we have very limited amount of time to win this game. Dismissing everything that happened today as "Day 1 flailing" is a goddamn mistake, did you even remember Eddie on M15--

Day 1 of M15 was hardly a typical Day 1. I'd (inadvertently) given the town concrete information to work on in the role PMs, and there was an obvious Outsider who was all but rolling over and dying.

We don't have any of that here, so most of what's been going on today has been the usual Day 1 nonsense of rules clarifications, theorymancy, Umby Cycle, and "yeah I don't know anything so I'll vote for this guy" stuff. The big exception to this, was your own, was your own second post, which, as I've already said, I feel to be potentially quite destructive to the town, and likely intentionally so.

I don't have much feeling about most of what's happened today because most of it doesn't warrant it.

schep
11-15-2011, 03:44 PM
I am so sorry I ever suggested intentionally getting modkilled in M15. I mainly just wanted to see what Brickroad would say. Valid answers to my 'why not' question include:

That's a crappy thing to do to the GM and a terrible precedent to set if it encourages other people to do the same.
I'd probably be declared no longer on any team, so it wouldn't even work as an unconventional play to win.
If the GM thinks my action is unbalancing enough, he might just deal out extra punishment like removing a lynch or nightkill from my team, or banning me from future games.

So please, nobody really consider that sort of thing, okay?


That said, I think that Mogri was considering it, and maybe Death's public response, might count as evidence Mogri is an ordinary townie. But I'm still confused at a number of Mogri's actions, and I'm not really convinced by the arguments against other sleuths.

botticus
11-15-2011, 03:49 PM
>Blink, Rub Eyes

No, you read it right. He's voting for you because he doesn't like how you play. Oh, and also unspecified other reasons.

If you weren't so intent on, you know, participating in the game, you could get away with this kind of thing too.
Good lord this second-person narrative is taking some getting used to. Took me about three reads to realize you were talking to yourself instead of Krakenbrau. Though, my response would be the same regardless of your target: making yourself out to be a victim does not endear me to you!

Raven
11-15-2011, 04:05 PM
Rebuttals.

Ok, all that sound reasonable. To be honest, the one thing that really alarmed me is (5), the others are mostly there to test your reactions. There are a few points I can still argue, but those are not really worth pursuing and in general it's still a sound enough defense.

Yup, not going to switch vote against you. At least for now. Hope you'll be interested more in the next day!

Mogri
11-15-2011, 04:12 PM
Good lord this second-person narrative is taking some getting used to. Took me about three reads to realize you were talking to yourself instead of Krakenbrau. Though, my response would be the same regardless of your target: making yourself out to be a victim does not endear me to you!

>Shrug

While you're not trying to come off as a victim, you're not really shooting for "endearing," either. But maybe you should!

>Post cat photo

http://www.slimesalad.com/files/cats.jpg

There you go. Everyone likes cats, right?

>Complain about Krakenbrau

Seriously, though, Krakenbrau has not mentioned a legitimate reason for his vote, and even went so far as to say that the only reason he gave was based on behavior that was "not necessarily Mafia." Heck of a vote, yeah?

>Agree

You also think this second-person narrative is confusing, but hey, that's the flavor.

Red Hedgehog
11-15-2011, 04:19 PM
Yay, finally some time to post.

In general, I feel that silence is a pretty good place for mafia to hide so making people post stuff is a good town strategy. That said, I'm also on the dtsund bandwagon that day 1 (in a game like this specific mafia setup) is largely flailing. All people can really do is comment on the silly things others do. So I'll do that:

Mogri:

His yapping reads more suspicious to be than Raven's because he seems trying to obfuscate things (the "townie" knowledge role PM stuff, modkill theorymancing, overblowing what others say). That said, I still think "excited clueless townie" is a more likely explanation for him.

Kayma:

My mafia-dar is notoriously bad, but I would be less suspicious of Kayma if he'd said he was voting for Mogri to save his butt. Instead, he gives no explanation whatsoever but just acts defensive ("Oh woe is me! I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.") Early day one, throwing out random accusations is one thing, but from then on, explain your vote.

Krakenbrau:

While his first post came off as posting just to have something there (Yes, I realize I am the pot calling the kettle black), he at least explains his vote for Mogri (even if I don't think it's a great reason) and then explains himself to Raven.

Nodal:

One post and a pretty crappy accusation. As a warning to Raven to not start in on Brickroad then fine, but he hasn't posted since and is looking way weaksauce.

---

I'd be happy voting Kayma or Nodal. I'll go ahead and accuse Kayma because even though while I'm not convinced of his guilt, I'm more convinced of Mogri's innocence.

Yimothy
11-15-2011, 05:58 PM
>Be Mogri

>Gather evidence for Mogri

- Placed a randvote at game start. TT Mafia doesn't do RVS, noob!
- Claimed to be town. Very incriminating.
- Asked about daychat. It's like the second coming of Guild here!

You must be missing something here.

>Add some stuff Mogri's missing.

- Claimed to be town indirectly, by saying he could verify Yimothy's information. At best, this was completely unnecessary, because all townies already knew the info was good, and power roles and mobsters could infer it from his not being called out by other townies.
- Said that gaming the role PMs was pointless, because the mafia might have access to them, then snarks Destil for saying the same thing.
- Proposes a plan to deliberately break the rules in a way that's more likely to help the mafia than town.
- Misrepresents the case against himself.

Solitayre
11-15-2011, 06:02 PM
>"Examine MURDERCITE SHARDS on LYNCH MONSTRANCE"

McClain: 1
Brickroad

poetfox: 0
Mogri

Brickroad: 0
Raven

Raven: 3
Nich
poetfox
dtsund
Nodal

Mogri: 5
schep
McClain
Poetfox
Yimothy
Kayma
Krakenbrau

dtsund: 0
Mogri
Raven

Kayma: 7
Egarwaen
Mogri
Raven
TheGiantHead
Destil
McClain
Red Hedgehog

Nodal: 1
Umby

Krakenbrau: 1
botticus

Day ends in 1 hour.

Mogri
11-15-2011, 06:20 PM
>Be Mogri



>Add some stuff Mogri's missing.

- Claimed to be town indirectly, by saying he could verify Yimothy's information. At best, this was completely unnecessary, because all townies already knew the info was good, and power roles and mobsters could infer it from his not being called out by other townies.
- Said that gaming the role PMs was pointless, because the mafia might have access to them, then snarks Destil for saying the same thing.
- Proposes a plan to deliberately break the rules in a way that's more likely to help the mafia than town.
- Misrepresents the case against himself.

>Ask for clarification

"Just so we're clear, you're saying you find this behavior more suspect than declaring in thread that you are deliberately not posting. Is that fair to say?"

>Argue fruitlessly

If executed properly, the suicide-modkill plan would not even possibly benefit scum more than town. You saw Yimothy's reasoning earlier and it relied on the assumption that the person executing the strategy was scum. You suspect the reveal would tip town off at least a little.

Solitayre
11-15-2011, 07:03 PM
Day has ended. Voting is now closed.

Solitayre
11-15-2011, 07:08 PM
Day One Final Vote Count

McClain: 1
Brickroad

poetfox: 0
Mogri

Brickroad: 0
Raven

Raven: 3
Nich
poetfox
dtsund
Nodal

Mogri: 5
schep
McClain
Poetfox
Yimothy
Kayma
Krakenbrau

dtsund: 0
Mogri
Raven

Kayma: 7
Egarwaen
Mogri
Raven
TheGiantHead
Destil
McClain
Red Hedgehog

Nodal: 1
Umby

Krakenbrau: 1
botticus

>"Next"

Solitayre
11-15-2011, 07:15 PM
>”Sleuths: Call Kayma out.”

You’ve had enough of this Kayma fella dancing like a buffoon in your hallway. You cannot concentrate with all this tomfoolery. You are certain that with your collective PULCHRITUDE stat, you’ll be able to win him over, and if not… Well, you still have your guns. One way or another you’re sure you’ll manage to work out your differences.

You address Kayma in your most hard-boiled tones, and tell him that while you respect his dancing skills, you have some problems to sleuth, dames to rescue, mobsters to foil, and hards to boil, so if he could kindly get his head the fuck in the game, that’d be the bee’s knees. Whatever that means. Do bees even have knees?





>”Kayma: Dance crazy!”

Kayma refuses to be mollified! He unleashes a torrent of crazy dance moves all up in your face! Hot damn! That cat can really cut a rug!


http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16DanceCrazy.gif

>”Kayma: MidnightTech: Boogie Nights”

Kayma’s OBITUOVERDRIVE meter maxes out! His shadowy dance attacks take a severe toll on your supply of GUMPTION WAFERS.





>”Sleuths: COMB RAVE.”

You can tell it is gonna take a helluva a lot of firepower to bring this guy down. But he’s not the only lug around here with some crazy dance moves. You unleash the might of your deadliest combination attack.

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16TTS.gif




Kayma’s macabre dance powers are no match for the power of the TRIPLE TRUFFLE SHUFFLE. His final moment, it seems, is one of pure awe.

Kayma has been slain!

He was Hearts Boxcars of the Midnight Crew.

It is now night. Day 2 will begin on November 17, at 10PM EST.

Solitayre
11-17-2011, 07:09 PM
>”Sleuths: Reunite after chilly winter’s evening.”

Night has passed, and all is quiet. You start to think maybe the Midnight Crew was all talk, or maybe after losing one of their number after one day made them give up and find another city.

However, you quickly realize all is not well after all. Egarwaen is missing!

>”Investigate Egarwaen’s office post-haste!”

You figure Egarwaen probably just lost his keys and locked himself in his office again. He’s like that. However, a thorough search of his office yields no sign…

Hmmm. His window is open.

>”Check window!”

You look at the window and see Egarwaen has taken a horrible tumble from his office window! His head has been badly bashed in!

Who could have done this?

>”Next”

The ghastly show of horrors continues! In a nearby alley where Egarwaen’s body has fallen, you discover the corpse of Krakenbrau! His bloodied FALCONER’S GAUNTLET lies nearby, and his body is riddled with bullets. In fact, the entire alley is. It looks like a pretty heavy fire-fight took place out here last night. You imagine Krakenbrau went out like a suave, noir badass anti-hero, at least.

>”Sleuths: Redouble efforts!”

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M16PSAnger.gif

The Midnight Crew has struck their first blow against you. Their crimes cannot stand. There are murderers in your very midst, and you won’t stop until you’ve found every one of them.

Egarwaen and Krakenbrau have been slain!

Day 2 has begun. It will end on November 20th, at 10 PM EST.

What will you do?

Mogri
11-17-2011, 07:27 PM
> Change vote

"I accuse Kayma"

>Examine McClain

McClain is a gentleman, a scholar, and a credit to his team.

>Ask question

What, no role reveals? This makes you sad.

botticus
11-17-2011, 07:32 PM
I don't suppose it would make sense for the vigilante to come forward after one night, in which case we're left to guess which kill belongs to which party, if it matters much at this stage. Though, would we be told if one of the victims was MC?

Nightkills aside, any thoughts on the Kayma lynch? The margin between him and Mogri was surmountable for the remaining MC, so why did it go through?
a) MC were already all or partially in on Mogri, leaving them without the possibility of preventing the lynch
b) Mogri is MC, so there was no viable alternative
c) Kayma could only have been saved by a vote bomb that the MC didn't want to risk.

Krakenbrau's death narrows down the possibilities (regardless of his faction) if we look at option a: schep, poetfox, Yimothy. On that topic, Mogri is correct in that McClain is either town, or an immeasurably ballsy MC.

Mogri
11-17-2011, 07:36 PM
Oh, also...

>Examine post counts

Nodal 1

You accuse Nodal. Regardless of his faction, he really needs to speak up. Why, Kayma had twice as many posts!

McClain
11-17-2011, 07:38 PM
> Blush

You get a little flustered from all these sleuths talking about you.

> Stand on soapbox

You clear your throat. "I vote for Nodal to post more than once today." You hope that will be enough pressure to get him talking. You aren't really sure what to make of him since he didn't really do anything yesterday.

Red Hedgehog
11-17-2011, 07:45 PM
To my mind, Egarwaen seems like a mafia kill (voted for Kayma, tried to get Raven and McClain back onto track, suspected those attempting to hide with low post counts). While Krakenbrau seems like a vigilante kill (voted for Mogri for a weak reason, generally didn't explain himself well).

And I'm sorry I'm not the first to do this, but I accuse Nodal of posting even less than me on day one.

Umby
11-17-2011, 08:00 PM
I would join the Nodal train, but I fear that it will get him lynched before we see what his deal is. I personally don't like his only post, as it seemed to indicate he was either trying to manipulate from the shadows or jumped stupidly on the first train he saw.

Meanwhile, can we go ahead and look at why the mafia could have killed either Egwargen or Krakenbrau (although I believe Egwargen to be the one killed by the mafia, as Kraken was under heat yesterday and seems like a good vig target)?

Raven
11-17-2011, 08:02 PM
> LOAD GAME

> Quick analysis on Nightkill data

"I think it's beyond obvious that the MC killed Egar (rest in peace, hero!), and the Vigilante killed Kraken. Let's not second-guess ourselves too much there."

> Present proposal

"Okay, I think some of us probably already noticed this, so let's get this out before an MC could distract us:

Let's get back to page 4 and 5 of this thread. There was something really strange going on.

Take note that Brickroad started to pour weird personal nonsense against McClain and complained about people paying him too much attention, when nobody really talked about him, and no one even had a vote on him anymore--as Egar astutely pointed out here. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191898&postcount=130) This feels too much like attention-baiting and (perhaps more importantly) vote-baiting, so let's see again what's going on at that moment: Mogri argued a bunch of stuffs about a bunch of people, votes started to pile up on Mogri....and votes started to pile up on Kayma.

Take note that Brick suddenly broke his silence (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191864&postcount=112), soon after I put my vote on Kayma (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191841&postcount=107) (which brought his vote count to 3, and put Kayma in real danger). Yeah, the timing and tone of all this are waay too suspicious.

Finally, take note that long afterward, dtsund just had to bring up the whole Brickroad Show thing again (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192300&postcount=158)--again, perhaps to distract from the Mogri vs. Kayma lynch situation. (note that the quote he used there is actually from one of Brick's own rant, deftly created an illusion that there was a 'Brickroad Show' going).

Conclusion: yeah, the whole back-and-forth between Brick and McC feels too much like a hasty set-up to distract attention toward Brick himself. His play read to me like Evil Mindfucker!Brickroad instead of Cute Innocent!Brickro-"

*interrupted by a loud noise outside

"Raven, how dare you starting up Brickroad show again, let's make a Raven Show instead and lynch him--

> Open WINDOW and toss GRENADE on the spambot-led crowd

".....where were I? Oh yeah, of course I don't want to waste our time, energy, and sanity to focus today's lynch on somebody who already stated that he was just going to be "background player with +1 vote". So, here is what I propose for today: request our Vigilante to kill Brickroad on Night 3 (I actually expected him not acting yesterday night, but no matter) and focus our lynch on somebody else today.

There is of course a chance that everything I said above is just unfortunate coincidence (although I seriously doubt that), so keep eyes open on everyone else as well. No more Modkill/PM nonsense, reaching arguments, second-guesses, pointless distractions, etc. Concentrate on Day 1, events leading up to the Kayma lynch, and don your MINDFUCK SHIELD."

tl;dr:

Gift-wrap Brick for the Vig, do some shit, catch a Mafia.

McClain
11-17-2011, 08:10 PM
I would join the Nodal train, but I fear that it will get him lynched before we see what his deal is.

> Have realization

You actually aren't sure if there is a majority auto-lynch rule, as you can't find one specifically in the OP.

> Palaver with Death

"Hey dude, do days end early if someone gets a majority vote?"

Umby
11-17-2011, 08:18 PM
>Catch Raven's grenade and send it over into the Midnight Crew's corner

I'd like to put forth that dtsund has been playing a shadowy game that, metagamey as it is, very unlike what I've seen him before. He's playing kind of a weak hand and letting people make decisions for him. I feel that we need to also check up on what dtsund was doing yesterday, because...

>Check gut feeling. Make sure the Umby Cycle is revving its engines.

My gut feeling says that dtsund is Midnight Crew scum.

Raven
11-17-2011, 08:26 PM
I think I'm going to open up by accusing botticus. A lot of his posts yesterday didn't seem to say a whole lot, and his sole Kraken vote was nice and safe.

Response, botticus? I'm actually thinking about that too.

Yeah, I want to empty my gun on a certain spambot too, but let's wait until Nodal actually shows up (maybe dude just wanted to drastically change his playstyle after being mod-killed twice in a row. Or Skyrim) and Sol give his answer to McC's question.

McClain
11-17-2011, 08:27 PM
>Catch Raven's grenade and send it over into the Midnight Crew's corner

I'd like to put forth that dtsund has been playing a shadowy game that, metagamey as it is, very unlike what I've seen him before. He's playing kind of a weak hand and letting people make decisions for him. I feel that we need to also check up on what dtsund was doing yesterday, because...

>Check gut feeling. Make sure the Umby Cycle is revving its engines.

My gut feeling says that dtsund is Midnight Crew scum.

> Open dtsund file

You check your notes on DTS:


Mildly suspect Voted Raven early (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1191258#post1191258).

Got defensive when pressed on resoning. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1192300#post1192300)

Really wanted (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1192322#post1192322) to stay out of the conversation about other suspects. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1192355#post1192355)


You admit that he was on your short list of suspects after hopefully getting Nodal to talk, but since Umby cracked the bottle, you figured you'd help yourself to a glass.

The thing you caution yourself against is that you aren't sure how you feel about Raven* (though your gut-read is "flailing excited townie"), and DT's narrow focus could be justified.

*Or Umby, for that matter.

Yimothy
11-17-2011, 08:31 PM
>Be Mogri

You are now Mogri.

>Read the rules

You don't seem to know how!

>Be Yimothy

You are now Yimothy

>Maybe try looking at people who aren't Mogri sometime

OK, you'll do that. But first, you need to point out to him that his plan from yesterday helps the mafia more if it leads to two townies dying instead of one, or a townie and a mafioso instead of just a mafioso. You don't see how it could be reliably executed properly by anyone except a mafioso, and that's why you think it's a plan that helps the mafia more than the town.

dtsund
11-17-2011, 08:39 PM
> HBS: Revise suspicions.

I am now somewhat unsure about whether I'd be willing to vote for Raven today. On the one hand, now that we know Kayma was guilty, the timing of Raven's accusation of him doesn't necessarily look to me like the kind of time a Midnight Crewman would want to advance his case.

On the other hand, I can think of no good reason for a Townie to tell our freaking Vigilante how to use his power.

> HBS: Make inappropriate reference.

Suspicions Pitching Once Again Toward The Conclusion That You Are Just Very Stupid

> HBS: Make accusation.

You don't know who to accuse right now!

Solitayre
11-17-2011, 08:44 PM
>

> Palaver with Death

"Hey dude, do days end early if someone gets a majority vote?"

No.

Umby
11-17-2011, 08:57 PM
On the other hand, I can think of no good reason for a Townie to tell our freaking Vigilante how to use his power.

>Be Umby

I see no reason why he shouldn't. It's not like the mafia can stop his or her kill, right? It's merely a suggestion, and it does a good job of killing the Brickroad show before it starts. On the topic of Raven's read of Brickroad, I believe it's credible. Here's the list of people I want to speak before I commit to any voting.

>Bear List
It's already there, silly!


Nodal
Brickroad

Raven
11-17-2011, 09:07 PM
> Embrace dtsund in a tight, warm hug

"It's okay, buddy, I don't want to argue with you anymore. It's clearly pointless. Let's just forget all our differences yesterday and catch some Mafia together, okay?"


lolol dtsund is so dirty it's not even funny.

Umby
11-17-2011, 09:08 PM
>Umbra Attack: Wildly Whispering Willows

Yeah, did you like the part where he effectively said nothing and accused nothing? Me too!

schep
11-17-2011, 09:11 PM
Kayma has been slain!

He was Hearts Boxcars of the Midnight Crew.

> Sleuths: Level up!
VICTORIOUS MOMENT!

If I am the investigator, Brickroad is innocent.

I make those sorts of statements in most Mafia/Werewolf games I play. When I have such a power, I don't want any information lost if I die unexpectedly. When I'm an ordinary townie, I make up bogus results because I want to make it possible for the real investigator to make similar statements without revealing role. (And of course when I'm evil, I want to convince everyone I'm in one of the cases above.)

I'd also like to encourage Nodal to contribute more, but he has enough votes for this early in the day.

There are a few people I think look relatively innocent, but I don't have any suspicions to go on. So maybe I'll watch to see what the probably-good guys think and go along with them.

Mogri
11-17-2011, 09:18 PM
If I am the investigator, Brickroad is innocent.

I make those sorts of statements in most Mafia/Werewolf games I play. When I have such a power, I don't want any information lost if I die unexpectedly. When I'm an ordinary townie, I make up bogus results because I want to make it possible for the real investigator to make similar statements without revealing role. (And of course when I'm evil, I want to convince everyone I'm in one of the cases above.).

>Furrow brow

>:|

You hope he realizes that that makes all such declarations meaningless.

Umby
11-17-2011, 09:20 PM
> Be impatient.

Since I'm jumpy and I feel like I know who should be sent to the gallows today, I'll go ahead and vote for dtsund. Nodal is still on my list, sure, but that noncommittal post strikes me as very Diamond Droogs-y, to be sure. If I have time tomorrow, I shall analyze dtsund's few posts.

Raven
11-17-2011, 09:46 PM
???

-________________-'

....schep. Never mind the opinion of the "probably-innocent-guys", I want to hear your own opinion on who is the most likely suspect.

The day is still very long Umby, be cool. Thanks for helping keeping dtsund in check! You're a good man. (I hope I won't regret having said that, later).

Raven
11-17-2011, 10:21 PM
@schep:

...and also, how could we ever Know you're inspector If you're dead?

there is absolutely no way in heLL we coulD know That, unless...

> SUmmon solitaire

"if a townie power role died by lynching, do we discover said power role?"

.....

...regardless of the aNswer, that move feels way too weird to me.

i accuse schep.

i think that's going to be my last move toDay. see you guys tomorrow.

dtsund
11-17-2011, 10:42 PM
I see no reason why he shouldn't.

Put yourself in the Vigilante's shoes for a moment.

If Raven's a Townie, what the hell makes his judgment better than yours?

If he's a Midnight Crewman, why the hell do you want to do what he says?

Solitayre
11-18-2011, 12:04 AM
> SUmmon solitaire

Solitayre seems to be getting quite perturbed by the fact that apparently nobody can spell his name right.


"if a townie power role died by lynching, do we discover said power role?"


Identities of lynched players are public knowledge.

Brickroad
11-18-2011, 03:58 AM
I accuse McClain.

I'd accuse Nodal, but I'm betting he'll probably get modkilled instead.

botticus
11-18-2011, 05:26 AM
Response, botticus? I'm actually thinking about that too.


There's not really much for me to respond to. I made some posts, tried to get people to provide more information, mostly the end. I like to think I at least said as much as a number of other people, including the person accusing me!


If Nodal goes through another day with 1 post, I'm not going to cry if he goes, but I don't want to count on hitting mafia twice going after the lowest posters. And I have my own suspects based on my theory (or theories).

Raven, you wrote a lot to basically say you think Brick was trying to bring attention to himself instead of Kayma vs. Mogri. Are you implying he (and potentially his accomplices) was attempting to sacrifice himself to save the both of them, or just to distract us from lynching Kayma?

Mogri
11-18-2011, 10:11 AM
>Accept apology

Let's be fair: Kayma was suspect for more than just post count. Nodal isn't as fishy as Kayma, but putting pressure on him will hopefully make him post. If he doesn't post at all, he'll be modkilled, of course, meaning someone else needs to go on the block. Popular opinion seems to be dtsund.

McClain
11-18-2011, 10:19 AM
Nodal isn't as fishy as Kayma, but putting pressure on him will hopefully make him post. If he doesn't post at all, he'll be modkilled, of course, meaning someone else needs to go on the block


-Players must post at least once per game day. Players who fail will be replaced.

Raven
11-18-2011, 10:22 AM
There's not really much for me to respond to. I made some posts, tried to get people to provide more information, mostly the end. I like to think I at least said as much as a number of other people, including the person accusing me!

Hmm...looking back again, I see you did stir up the non-posters to post. Giant Head, you may got a point there, but I actually think that schep is more guilty in Day 1 (and today) bullshit-padding than botticus was.

If Nodal goes through another day with 1 post, I'm not going to cry if he goes, but I don't want to count on hitting mafia twice going after the lowest posters. And I have my own suspects based on my theory (or theories).

Agreed.

Raven, you wrote a lot to basically say you think Brick was trying to bring attention to himself instead of Kayma vs. Mogri. Are you implying he (and potentially his accomplices) was attempting to sacrifice himself to save the both of them, or just to distract us from lynching Kayma?

The latter. This whole Brick-take-a-hit-for-Kayma thing feels....familiar. I think Brick knows that Kayma probably won't going to post anything soon, thus he tried to pull some votes toward him and be a bigger target for people who haven't posted yet. It's all conjectural (it's possible that Brick really meant everything he said), however, I just thought that it fits well with 4 things we know (Kayma's being guilty, Egar's being night-killed, dtsund's being weird, Brick's being weird) and worth bringing up.

....and of course, I couldn't mind-jack the Vigilante and make him do what I want. I merely floated my suggestion, and it's entirely up to him to decide if it's worth following after today's and Day 3's lynches & activities.

Whoops, I feel dumb. It was Mogri I was giving a hard time for "let's kill a quiet dude" yesterday, not Kayma. So it was him(?) I owe an apology, not Raven.

Raven continues to be slippery and weird.

Hehehe....yeah, just keep on changing your mind, Nich.

Mogri
11-18-2011, 10:50 AM
>Misread rules

What, "replaced" isn't a euphemism?

McClain
11-18-2011, 11:01 AM
>Misread rules

What, "replaced" isn't a euphemism?

> Respond

You point at the last game and between-game conversations where it was pointed out that mod-killing inactives unfairly punished their teammates, and it was generally agreed that first efforts should be made to replace the offender.

You also hope that if Nodal is for some reason unable to participate that he would request a replacement. You pray to merciful Death to ask if there has been any such requests.

Solitayre
11-18-2011, 01:12 PM
> You pray to merciful Death to ask if there has been any such requests.

Death responds that such affairs are not the concern of mortals such as yourself.

Red Hedgehog
11-18-2011, 03:37 PM
Here's a rough timeline of day one:

Day begins

Brickroad accuses McClain (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190667&postcount=4)
Mogri accuses poetfox (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190744&postcount=19)

Raven posits interesting, but flawed Brickroad theory. Accuses Brickroad. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190765&postcount=22)

Nich accuses Raven
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190787&postcount=30)
poetfox accuses Raven (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190789&postcount=32)

Mogri wonders if there's a daytalk (despite none listed in the rules) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190831&postcount=41)

Kayma posts nothing of substance
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190889&postcount=45)

schep accuses Mogri (but claims not to know what daychat is) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190890&postcount=46)

Raven adds to Brickroad theory (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190980&postcount=54)

Mogri makes postcount and accuses dtsund because he hasn't posted. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191169&postcount=64)

dtsund accuses Raven (claiming due to Raven's Brickroad theory) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191259&postcount=68)
Nodal accuses Raven (for talking about Brickroad) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191459&postcount=71)

Egarwaen accuses Kayma (due to lack of posting)
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191543&postcount=72)

Umby defends Raven's conjectures
Umby accuses Nodal (for bad reasoning on accusation and not posting anything substantive) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191628&postcount=73)

Mogri accuses Kayma (agreeing with Egarwaen) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191670&postcount=83)

Raven changes from Brickroad to dtsund (for accusing him / weak argument) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191681&postcount=84)

McClain accuses Mogri (for distorting statements)
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191772&postcount=100)

botticus accuses Krakenbrau (for not posting) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191782&postcount=101)

poetfox change vote from Raven to Mogri (for focusing on unimportant things)
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191807&postcount=104)

Raven change from dtsund to Kayma (for Kayma not posting anything substantive) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191807&postcount=104)

Yimothy accuses Mogri (for obscure statements and apparently changing his mind regarding using role PMs) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191842&postcount=108)

Brickroad / McClain bitchfest

The Giant Head accuses Kayma (for lack of substantive posting) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191930&postcount=135)

Destil accuses Kayma (for not doing anything useful) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191955&postcount=140)

Kayma accuses Mogri (for no reason given) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192021&postcount=149)

Krakenbrau accuses Mogri (for talking about modkill suicide) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192137&postcount=154)

McClain changes from Mogri to Kayma (for Kayma making lousy, uninformative posts) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192176&postcount=155)

Red Hedgehog accuses Kayma (for defensiveness / lack of vote explanation) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192394&postcount=171)

McClain
11-18-2011, 03:50 PM
> Wonder what Red is up to

You wonder what the point of this text dump was. If Red wants to do a digest it's more helpful to pick out one person at a time. Or more simply break down voting patterns.

You wonder if he has any conclusions from that data or if he just wanted try to look helpful.

botticus
11-18-2011, 03:54 PM
In this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191881&postcount=123) post, you echo a pretty non-controversial modkill opinion.

In this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192387&postcount=168) post you complain about confusing flavor text and how you don't like victim behavior.

In this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191743&postcount=95) post you restate/explain Raven's post for everyone.

You spend two (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191083&postcount=58) posts (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191743&postcount=95) asking Raven about whether or not he has his own TT Mafia Wiki, because if he had that it would be easy to look things up, therefore making him mafia (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191782&postcount=101), I guess? Why the hell would Raven have a TT Mafia Wiki? The question is complete nonsense.

I think you're padding your posts with bullshit, which is why I'm suspicious of you.

Isn't it normally customary to include all posts in a digest, not just the ones that support your opinion?

As far as my deal with Raven is concerned, I was actually fishing after how much research he had done prior to the game, versus during the game. I think we could all agree that if Raven spent hours poring over Brick's previous history down to his accuracy as an inspector DURING THE GAME, he would either be the most thorough bad guy I've ever heard of, or more likely a strong candidate for townie. Since he had done some of the work beforehand and some now, I ultimately didn't have a strong position on him.

----

Red Hedgehog, any thoughts about the info you've dumped, or is that just an FYI post?

McClain
11-18-2011, 04:00 PM
Isn't it normally customary to include all posts in a digest, not just the ones that support your opinion?

> Laugh

Oh Botticus. If someone is building a case against you, then they are going to show evidence that helps them. If you feel that you are being misrepresented, why don't you provide some links to some of the posts he's leaving out that would disprove his point, hmm?

botticus
11-18-2011, 04:19 PM
> Laugh

Oh Botticus. If someone is building a case against you, then they are going to show evidence that helps them. If you feel that you are being misrepresented, why don't you provide some links to some of the posts he's leaving out that would disprove his point, hmm?

Gladly!

If my first post today (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1193706#post1193706) is bullshit, then I might as well not waste my time doing much beyond voting.

In my first post of the game (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1190727#post1190727) I discuss the theory of the non-lynch.

Here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1191151#post1191151) I call out our friends the non-posters.

You be the judge!


And here's another non-bullshit post for those scoring at home:

Waiting till the end of the day to accuse people didn't work out so well for us last game, so I'll not waste any time lest I have a busy weekend.

My main suspect list at this point is the Mogri voting list, specifically schep, poetfox and Yimothy. Yimothy... talked about Mogri a lot. Such that I am inclined to take his Mogri vote as genuine.

poetfox has not done much as yet, but she did make a pretty substantive post in summarizing her position and view of the game when switching her vote from Raven to Mogri.

schep on the other hand has talked about daychat, said unpleasant things about the modkill strategy being floated, pretended(?) to be inspector today, and is rounded out with some flavor posts (this summary covers all of his posts).

Out of those three, I think schep is a good first choice.

I accuse schep.

Mogri
11-18-2011, 04:29 PM
My main suspect list at this point is the Mogri voting list

>Approve

This is a good idea, and you like his reasoning. You could easily be swayed to vote schep, but will hold out for some Nodal participation for now.

Red Hedgehog
11-18-2011, 05:07 PM
Sorry, dinner time hit before I could post my analysis of yesterday's voting.

You wonder what the point of this text dump was. If Red wants to do a digest it's more helpful to pick out one person at a time. Or more simply break down voting patterns.

Actually, I disagree with the first sentence because I was doing exactly what you said in the second sentence (breaking down when people made their votes and what they may have been voting based on).

Anyway, what I was really looking for was to see if there was any Mogri padding to save Kayma. The two people most likely doing so (Kayma and Krakenbrau) are now dead.

The only other person who falls into that category remaining is Yimothy who may have seen a bandwagon forming against Kayma and tried to get it back onto Mogri. While we can't assume Mogri is innocent, I can see ragging on his style a good way to get an innocent lynched.

Once Nodal says something substantive or is replaced, I'll probably change my vote to Yimothy.

Red Hedgehog
11-18-2011, 05:45 PM
Red Hedgehog's final unnecessary Kayma vote would be an easy place to hide when the shit hit the fan too.

::rolleyes:: Yes, because Kayma was so definitely dead with only a one vote lead and three hours to go.

I have to admit, it would be a pretty gonady move if I were mafia.

Yimothy
11-18-2011, 05:50 PM
>Vote

You don't know who to vote for! You were going to stick with Mogri, who continues get everything wrong all the time, but looking back at the votes on day one you're starting to think he's probably innocent. Not because he voted for Kayma (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191670&postcount=83), which he did before Kayma did anything really suspicious (not that you're convinced anything Kayma said was actually inherently suspicious, even knowing now that he was guilty) and which could have been another mafioso telling him to speak up more, but because Kayma voted for Mogri (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192021&postcount=149). At the time Mogri and Raven were tied for second with three votes each. Unless they're both mafia, you think Kayma would have voted for Raven if Mogri were mafia.

>Look at what Red Hedgehog is saying (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1194373&postcount=224) about you

You go back and look at the voting timeline. When you voted for Mogri, Kayma had three votes, one of which was posted (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191841&postcount=107) at the exact same time as your accusation (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191842&postcount=108) of Mogri and so could not have been a factor in your vote. The case against Kayma was that he hadn't posted anything significant, which was also true of several other players. There was no bandwagon to redirect.

McClain
11-18-2011, 05:59 PM
Has Destil posted today? He's being really, really quiet, which is somewhat unlike him.

> Check post records

Destil has not posted since about 20 hours before the end of Day 1. You regard this as somewhat disturbing.

> Weigh in on Red

You find it somewhat unlikely that a MC would jump on top of the pile for one of his own on Day One, when a vote for an outlier would be less suspicious. Not impossible, but certainly unlikely.

schep
11-18-2011, 06:07 PM
>Explain weird conditional statement strategy.
>Furrow brow
You hope he realizes that that makes all such declarations meaningless.
The whole point is that the fact I made the statement says nothing, but the statement itself is still capable of conveying content when necessary.

"if a townie power role died by lynching, do we discover said power role?"
Oh, oops. I didn't consider that the move is much less useful in a game where nightkilled roles aren't publicly revealed. Still, I don't think it's entirely pointless in this rule set, since if the vigilante killed an investigator who had made one or more such statements, the vigilante would inherit the knowledge.

But after all that, I'm about to make my own statement pointless later in this post. Oh well.

>Clarify another random thing.

schep accuses Mogri (but claims not to know what daychat is) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1190890&postcount=46)
I knew what daypalaver is. That was sarcasm, intended to convey my skepticism that such a thing exists in this game and/or is worth talking about in this thread.

>Consult Sleuth Trust Mesh.
Seeming relatively trustworthy:
- McClain (+5), for moving vote from Mogri to Kayma
- Yimothy (+2), for the PM trick plus some reasonable analysis
- dtsund (+2), for making sense
- Mogri (+1), for involvement early in the Kayma lynch (balanced against some negative points from yesterday)
- Raven (+2) and Nich (+1) mostly make sense, but have each also accrued a number of WTH points

Seeming slightly suspicious:
- botticus (-2), for somehow seeming to post a lot but without memorable content
- Red Hedgehog (-2), for mostly empty posts. His vote on Kayma was too late to have much meaning.
- poetfox (-1), for being second to vote for Raven Day One, in what might have been an attempt to move along a bandwagon
- Destil (-1) and Umby (-1), for setting off minor concern alarms in specific posts

* schep Trust Points do not always follow the laws of conventional arithmetic, and have no cash value.

And finally, Brickroad (-4) naturally leads in WTH points. I can see him intentionally changing his play style. I can see him maybe feeling victimized or something. But the thing that seriously alarms me in this game is the apparent reversal from "playing to win".
The reason for my accusation is I don't want McClain to play. I don't care if he's MC or not, I just want him fucking dead.
So you tell me, McC (assuming you haven't stopped giving a shit yet), how should I be productive to the town? What can I do to help my team, when my merest existence is enough to get people to shit themselves for two solid pages? Why shouldn't I just make random cheeseburger moves, if nothing I do can have any positive effect on the game?
Random / emotional votes unrelated to the game can slide on day 1. But by now the good guys actually playing this game are trying to use their votes to catch the Midnight Crew.

I accuse Brickroad.

Townie Brickroad, if such a being exists this time: If you really believe nothing you do can have any positive effect on the game, then please get out of the game. Otherwise, at least kindly explain to us all how your vote is aimed at winning.

Brickroad
11-18-2011, 06:14 PM
Townie Brickroad, if such a being exists this time: If you really believe nothing you do can have any positive effect on the game, then please get out of the game.

No. Fuck you. Fuck your mom.

Raven
11-18-2011, 06:36 PM
(re: botticus & TGH's discussion regarding Raven's research)

I have nothing to add besides that TT Mafia Wiki sounds awesome and someone should make it ASAP.

(re: Red's final vote on Kayma)

No, Red's right, it's extremely unlikely that Kayma's pals haven't had a vote already in those crucial final hours. For the MC who had a vote already on Mogri, all they have to do is to stay silent and hope for the best; for the MC who had a vote on other person, they probably will try to distract some attention and very deliberately neglected to comment on either Kayma or Mogri.

Soo....catch my drift there? (*might want to update that timeline with things that happened during the last several hours, Red)

(re: schep)

PREVIEW EDIT: Ok, I had just typed a long post about schep's weird-ass gambit and his lack of stance, but then I saw in preview he just made a post. Excuse me while I read that.

Raven
11-18-2011, 07:22 PM
Okay, response to schep's post:



Oh, oops. I didn't consider that the move is much less useful in a game where nightkilled roles aren't publicly revealed. Still, I don't think it's entirely pointless in this rule set, since if the vigilante killed an investigator who had made one or more such statements, the vigilante would inherit the knowledge.

But after all that, I'm about to make my own statement pointless later in this post. Oh well.

Uh, well, okay, let's just drop this whole gambit thing.



schep Trust Points!

At first, I dig the concept and presentation. Then I read the actual content and go, "WTF."

...but I guess it would be too much if I complained before that you hadn't posted any suspicion, then complained again because so much of your suspicion list doesn't jive with me.

(re: Brickroad)

schep, let's make this clear:

If Brick is Mafia, we ignore him for now. It's much more important to find his team-mates and save him for last, simply because discussing about his lynch now is counter-productive and will only lead us to chaos.

If Brick is Innocent, we ignore him for now. I want to respect his wish to be a background player. Plus, it's very possible that there is a Super Special Hidden Townie Power that Brick can only activate if he votes for McClain in 'x amount of days'.

Yimothy
11-18-2011, 07:35 PM
>What?

What?

Solitayre
11-18-2011, 07:50 PM
Vote Tallies

botticus: 1
The Giant Head

Nodal: 4
Mogri
McClain
Red Hedgehog
Nich

dtsund: 1
Umby

schep: 2
Raven
botticus

McClain: 1
Brickroad

Brickroad: 1
schep

Day ends in 47 hours.

McClain
11-18-2011, 07:53 PM
My main suspect list at this point is the Mogri voting list

Why?

poetfox
11-18-2011, 07:59 PM
Hi. Sorry I was busy today. But all my shopping netted me A CHRISTMAS BOAT OF FANCY SANTAS.

Or something humorous or whatever.

I will re-read and re-evaluate when I have more time on future days of this day, but for right now, I am just getting more and more worried about Raven. I feel like I'm having trouble following him and what he's trying to do. He seems all over the place looking for something to stick that he can put himself behind. A re-evaluation will show if I feel that's because he's being slippery, or because I am way too tired and out of it to follow the game at this very moment. However, it is what I feel strongest about at the moment, so I accuse Raven. For now, anyway.

botticus
11-18-2011, 08:02 PM
Why?

a) MC were already all or partially in on Mogri, leaving them without the possibility of preventing the lynch

McClain
11-18-2011, 08:29 PM
> Eh....

Something about Botticus' narrow focus on the pool of Mogri voters isn't sitting well with you. Especially when he's completely ignoring is own senarios.


b) Mogri is MC, so there was no viable alternative
c) Kayma could only have been saved by a vote bomb that the MC didn't want to risk.

Also, his reasons for voting schep seem kind of bullshit:


schep on the other hand has talked about daychat, said unpleasant things about the modkill strategy being floated, pretended(?) to be inspector today, and is rounded out with some flavor posts (this summary covers all of his posts).

I accuse schep.


>Check rules

You check the rules and don't find anything specifying that there's daytalk. You also don't find anything specifying there's no daytalk.

Perhaps a higher power (or, indeed, one of the Midnight folks) could help you answer this question.

> Check backside of poster

You are now schep.

Why would a hard-boiled, honest detective care about the FAKENESS attribute of a daychat? And what is a daychat, anyway?

I accuse Mogri.

Schep was refering to Mogri bringing up day chat when he was accusing him!

(You also happen to agree with schep that the whole mod-kill "strategy" thing is bullshit and don't see how saying so is a strike against him.)

botticus
11-19-2011, 04:27 AM
> Eh....

Something about Botticus' narrow focus on the pool of Mogri voters isn't sitting well with you. Especially when he's completely ignoring is own senarios.
Unfortunately my three theories are mutually exclusive. So I can a) vote for one of the three people on the Mogri list; b) vote for Mogri; or c) vote for one of the remaining six people. I choose to believe that it's less likely we had 12 votes on MC members yesterday (Kayma and Mogri), so I'm going with the smaller pool of suspects.

schep
11-19-2011, 04:31 AM
If Brick is Mafia, we ignore him for now. It's much more important to find his team-mates and save him for last, simply because discussing about his lynch now is counter-productive and will only lead us to chaos.

If Brick is Innocent, we ignore him for now. I want to respect his wish to be a background player.

Nah. I don't see why lynching Brickroad must involve that much more discussion than lynching any other suspicious player. I've presented my reasons and placed my vote. The rest of you can agree, or not. Plus, weird group psychology stuff or not, nobody should be lynch-proof.

And yes, it sucks to lynch somebody just on principle. But that's not what I'm doing. My reasons are based on his present behavior in this game.

Plus, it's very possible that there is a Super Special Hidden Townie Power that Brick can only activate if he votes for McClain in 'x amount of days'.
What.

Raven
11-19-2011, 06:16 AM
Nah. I don't see why lynching Brickroad must involve that much more discussion than lynching any other suspicious player. I've presented my reasons and placed my vote. The rest of you can agree, or not. Plus, weird group psychology stuff or not, nobody should be lynch-proof.

And yes, it sucks to lynch somebody just on principle. But that's not what I'm doing. My reasons are based on his present behavior in this game.

All joking about Super Power aside, I think we both agreed that Brick's probably dirty, and just disagree on how to most effectively get rid of him. That's a very good point you made there, and I probably would have gone after Brick today if yesterday's lynch result were different--but the result made me think that Brick should just be handled by the Vig, while we focus on the more 'subtle' suspects.

Anyway.

Schep's latest posts allayed most of my suspicion on him for now, and the longer Nodal went MIA, the more I think that he just forgot about the game. So, I'm back to my primary suspect at the start of the day: dtsund.

Presenting: dtsund Digest Day 1

Claimed that things have been garbage so far and accuse Raven for seemingly start a Brickroad show (the timing of this reeks of starting up a vote bandwagon) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191258&postcount=67)
Elaborate on the accusation (somehow believing that in order to "simply survive the first day", Raven "spark a Weird Debate Shit". Yeah sure, doing that will help me in my simple survival) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191645&postcount=75)
Misinterpreted McClain's post that questioned his faulty reasoning (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191684&postcount=85)
Note that during all that, he neglected to respond to this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191656&postcount=78), this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191686&postcount=86), and this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191702&postcount=87).

Pop up during the final hours of voting just to bring up the whole Brickroad Show thing AGAIN, when people are talking a lot of other stuffs. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192300&postcount=158)
Nit-picking on my queries of Krakenbrau (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192303&postcount=159)
Dismissing everything that had happened as "Day 1 flailing." (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192303&postcount=159)
More talk about how most things on today is garbage, and not worthy of his opinion. Note that during the whole thing he very deliberately neglected to address the lynch situation of either Mogri or Kayma, who were leading the votes at that time.
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192355&postcount=166)

Despite all that, I was willing to still be open-minded to the possibility that he was being a horribly misguided innocent. At the start of Day 2, I prodded and poked at other people while watching how he behaved in the first 24 hours:

Questioning Raven's innocence (again), nit-picking on my Vigilante suggestion, and failed whatsoever to address the Kayma lynch, the night-kill, or the possibility of any other possible suspects not named Raven. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1193769&postcount=195)
...apparently dtsund thought that I demanded the Vigilante to do what I want or that somehow I can mind-jack the Vig, whereas it should be clear that I only made a proposal/suggestion. This is just ridiculous. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1193841&postcount=205)

In other words, he keeps being so goddamn weird and unhelpful.

I don't mind being suspected or accused. Heck, even if I found the reasoning behind it as weak, I still think that it is not necessarily a Mafia behavior. However, I simply can't tolerate someone who nit-pick to a ridiculous degree, acted as if the other 16 players in the game didn't exist, and made ZERO attempt to address anything other than his own hyper-narrow suspicion.

I don't believe that a very experienced player like dtsund behave like that if he's Innocent. And even if he's somehow innocent, he's clearly doing his best Magikarp impersonation, and I don't like that either.

Probably my final vote for the day, unless there is going to be extreme development:

I ACCUSE DTSUND.

McClain
11-19-2011, 07:27 AM
Unfortunately my three theories are mutually exclusive. So I can a) vote for one of the three people on the Mogri list; b) vote for Mogri; or c) vote for one of the remaining six people. I choose to believe that it's less likely we had 12 votes on MC members yesterday (Kayma and Mogri), so I'm going with the smaller pool of suspects.

> Next

You continue to find Botticus' logic strange. First, he explains his reasoning for his pool of suspects, but completely ignores your criticism of his actual suspect. He also seems to be willfully ignoring schep's recent posts. You also still don't understand why a good sleuth would deliberately ignore the majority of suspects when he himself described a scenario where there would be MC in the outlier votes (which is usually how it works on day 1).

You get the feeling that he picked a target and then looked for reasons to vote for him, not the other way around.

>Next

You are starting to get the strong feeling that Nodal just isn't going to show up, and it would be a waste of a lynch on a dude that may just be replaced anyhow. You decided to dig deeper into DTS, Botticus and some other folks and move your vote eventually.

But if Nodal does pop up with another one sentence vote and vanish again you would probably leave your vote on him. You want substance.

Red Hedgehog
11-19-2011, 08:02 AM
You go back and look at the voting timeline. When you voted for Mogri, Kayma had three votes, one of which was posted (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191841&postcount=107) at the exact same time as your accusation (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1191842&postcount=108) of Mogri and so could not have been a factor in your vote. The case against Kayma was that he hadn't posted anything significant, which was also true of several other players. There was no bandwagon to redirect.

You're probably right (that your vote wasn't really suspicious in its timing). I should probably go back through how you've played in past games to see if you tend to vote for flailing, disorganized players. Tell you what, I won't change my vote to you until I do so.

(re: botticus & TGH's discussion regarding Raven's research)

I have nothing to add besides that TT Mafia Wiki sounds awesome and someone should make it ASAP.

[COLOR="Lime"](*might want to update that timeline with things that happened during the last several hours, Red)

Unfortunately, not much happened. If we look post-McClain changing his vote, we get:

Raven saying he finds both Mogri and Kayma suspicious, but Kayma more suspicious. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192200&postcount=156)

Raven saying he finds Krakenbrau most suspicious of all, but won't change his vote unless he can get others to do so. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192296&postcount=157)

dtsund responding to potential (but not explicit) criticism by Raven and arguing for why he still think Raven is the best target.
(http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192300&postcount=158)

Nich saying nothing (post count inflation?) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192311&postcount=160)

Raven sniping back at dtsund and criticizing him for not posting more thoughts on the days' goings on. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192320&postcount=161)

dtsund and Raven arguing about the value of what was said on day one up to that point. (162, 163, 166)

Krakenbrau responding to Raven and justifying his change in post count from the previous game. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192341&postcount=164)

Mogri incredulous that Krakenbrau is voting for him given his seemingly weak reasoning. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192349&postcount=165)

schep saying modkills are bad for the game and he regrets bringing them up in M15 and thus this vindicates Mogri a bit in his eyes. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192382&postcount=167)

botticus says "No pity party" (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192387&postcount=168)

Raven telling Krakenbrau that he generally likes his defense of himself but is still suspicious of the post count change. And warns Krakenbrau that a vote may be coming his way day two. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192390&postcount=169)

Mogri complains about Krakenbrau's vote reason again. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192391&postcount=170)

Red Hedgehog posts his opinion on quiet players and four of the hot targets in the game. Votes for Kayma. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192394&postcount=171)

Yimothy attempts to make case for Mogri again by saying Mogri's info was useless, claiming inconsistencies, proposing a bad plan, and misrepresenting himself. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192442&postcount=172)

Mogri asks Yimothy a pretty redundant question and then argues that his suicide-modkill plan wasn't that bad an idea. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192459&postcount=174)

The Giant Head reaffirm his vote for Kayma and wants him to post a suspect list or final thoughts. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1192460&postcount=175)

----

Really, not much. I see circumstantial evidence against Yimothy and dtsund there, but I'm pretty sure you could use anything said there to build a case against whomever you were suspicious of.

Red Hedgehog
11-19-2011, 08:45 AM
You're probably right (that your vote wasn't really suspicious in its timing). I should probably go back through how you've played in past games to see if you tend to vote for flailing, disorganized players. Tell you what, I won't change my vote to you until I do so.

Okay, a quick perusal of Yimothy in mafia games shows that he does like to vote for players who have had bad ideas (even though it hasn't been successful at catching mafia). So yeah, I need to find a new target for my vote assuming Nodal gets replaced.

Umby
11-19-2011, 08:57 AM
Both destil and dtsund have been online and not posting in this thread, so I don't know what that's about, really.

Destil
11-19-2011, 11:10 AM
Well, much as I wish Nodal would post, I at least know the reasons why he isn't. (They start with a "Sky" and end with a "rim." :P) As far as quiet players go, Destil's silence is a lot more worrying to me, so I'm switching over to accusing Destil.

I've actually just been very busy recently, today was the first decent night's sleep I've had in like three weeks. Still have to get an oil change, go to the post office to change my address and get a mail key and do some festivus shopping today. And we've got three people in my department at work right now after people quitting, being reassigned and going on vacation for a month when we should have six, so I haven't exactly had the time to post there, either. Guess this means I shouldn't just play Skyrim some more when I get back. Anyway my reaction to what's happened so far:

There was next to no debate about Kayama himself and the Crew hadn't had a chance to talk yet, so I think busing is unlikely. Kayma was an opportunity kill to me, someone I was happy to have die early since I didn't expect him to contribute at all. I know when I bused a mafia member day one I was very loud and repeated myself about why I was voting for him a lot.

For now I most suspect people who voted for outliers and Mogri, though I wouldn't be against Mogri getting a shotgun in the back at some point if the vigilante is willing to come forward if he's mafia (that's what I'd have done last night if was me). This is because I don't like assuming that Mogri's innocent and basing significant bits of detective work on it but I don't really want to lynch him because he still reads as a townie to me.

I have to re-read day two with a more critical eye as I've only skimmed it so far. But what's the deal with Nodal? Both why he's not posting, and why so many people picked him over any other low day one poster? Just mob mentality?

Destil
11-19-2011, 11:11 AM
Both destil and dtsund have been online and not posting in this thread, so I don't know what that's about, really.

Been keeping my eye on the EHD thread, mostly (as well as reading this one but not really having time to dig into things and post).

Mogri
11-19-2011, 11:30 AM
>Ask a stupid question

Do mafia PMs here usually include a list of teammates? In other words, MC did know who their team was on day one, right?

Umby
11-19-2011, 11:41 AM
> Answer
I'm no death, but I'm very sure all the crew know who each other are on day one.

Raven
11-19-2011, 12:13 PM
But what's the deal with Nodal? Both why he's not posting, and why so many people picked him over any other low day one poster? Just mob mentality?

As for the first question, I have no idea why he's not posting. Nodal made for a safe and logical target to accuse early today, since there is a very glaring lack of quantity AND quality (the exact reason why we lynched Kayma yesterday) in his contribution, so naturally many people wanted to force some substance out of him.

Of course, at this point, he also made for a very convenient bandwagon for an MC to jump in. And, if Nodal's a Mafia, it's unlikely that he would keep doing the exact same thing that got his team-mate killed (unless that was some genius reverse-psychology tactic or something).

McClain
11-19-2011, 12:15 PM
But what's the deal with Nodal? Both why he's not posting, and why so many people picked him over any other low day one poster? Just mob mentality?

> Point out the obvious

Nodal has literally one post. We have no information about him. Makes it hard to get a feel for him if he's not posting at all.

Nodal
11-19-2011, 03:12 PM
I'm here now! Sorry everyone, I just had a week off and I spent most of it not thinking about mafia. I'm back to work now though so I can browse this during breaks and catch up. Anyway, the person I find the most suspicious right now is poetfox. I've been catching a lot of heat for not posting much, and for voting for Raven, while she has been skating by with merely being added to some lists. In my opinion lists are really great ways to divert attention from your mafia friends, since you get their name out there and give them the semblance of being talked about while at the same time diverting attention from them onto someone else. Ironically, this makes me almost certain Raven is innocent now.

Destil
11-19-2011, 03:30 PM
>Accept apology

Let's be fair: Kayma was suspect for more than just post count.Wait, what? Dude has two posts, what's fishy about them? In fact, the only thing he did of note in the game is vote for you, which can easily be interpreted as a "you're not me" vote.

I'm here now! Sorry everyone, I just had a week off and I spent most of it not thinking about mafia. I'm back to work now though so I can browse this during breaks and catch up. Anyway, the person I find the most suspicious right now is poetfox. I've been catching a lot of heat for not posting much, and for voting for Raven, while she has been skating by with merely being added to some lists. In my opinion lists are really great ways to divert attention from your mafia friends, since you get their name out there and give them the semblance of being talked about while at the same time diverting attention from them onto someone else. Ironically, this makes me almost certain Raven is innocent now.

I was actually looking at other low-posters from yesterday trying to figure why you of all people were gaining so much attention and everyone else got none until Nich poked me. Poet's posts actually have something of substance in them at least.


I'll throw out that I'm pretty sure Brick's metagaming his participation level and the degree of buthurtness he's displaying, it's weird for him to go into cheesburger mode in a non-thing game. None of his wining makes me think about him with any sympathy, because this is fucking Brickroad. He plays to win, not for fun. It's illegitimately like Brick to want to stay out of the towns way since he generally thinks he's a pretty poor detective, but is this the time he's caught on and is using that to his advantage? After last game it would basically be the perfect time for it.

Pretty tempted to vote for the dude, in fact. But not to the degree that I'm willing to vote for dtsund

I accuse dtsund.

He's trying to push off 'get the town to follow a bad plan' as mafia behavior. How often has that ever happened? All the midnight crew need to win is to not be lynched. Seems more like a good reason to accuse an innocent person than a good way to catch mafia.

McClain
11-19-2011, 03:31 PM
> Poke Nodal

You wonder how Nodal feels about your other top suspects, dtsund and Botticus. As your main concern with Nodal was that he wasn't posting, you figure this as good a way as ever to figure out if/where to to move your vote. Or at least get some more data on the table.

Destil
11-19-2011, 03:32 PM
God damn you spellcheck.
I'll throw out that I'm pretty sure Brick's metagaming his participation level and the degree of buthurtness he's displaying, it's weird for him to go into cheesburger mode in a non-thing game. None of his wining whining makes me think about him with any sympathy, because this is fucking Brickroad. He plays to win, not for fun. It's illegitimately legitimately like Brick to want to stay out of the towns way since he generally thinks he's a pretty poor detective, but is this the time he's caught on and is using that to his advantage? After last game it would basically be the perfect time for it.

Mogri
11-19-2011, 03:42 PM
> Vote Mogri

"I accuse Mogri." you say calmly, after several hours of silently break dancing. You know this will probably cause everyone to jump off Mogri or Raven or whomever, because your quietness is suspicious. And breaking that silence? Tantamount to wearing an "I <3 THE MIDNIGHT CLUB" t-shirt and walking into town. It's much the same way Brickroad's boisterousness is suspicious, you guess.

These Talking Timers are all about the meta game, but you're not sure what about the metagame, exactly. Act quiet, you're bad. Talk a lot, you're bad. Act like you've been in previous games, you're bad. Act different from previous games? Yeah, that's bad.

>Go back to watching

You fill up your water bottle, remove your soiled sweatband, and decide to be a wallflower for a bit. Will you be lynched for doing nothing in particular? Maybe, maybe not... but you should watch these characters closely, just in case they give you the chance.

>Cough

You found this post pretty suspicious. But that's neither here nor there at this point.

Now that Nodal has posted, you'll need to do some re-evaluation. You're leaning dtsund or schep on pure gut at this point, but you'll need to review the case before you decide where to point your finger.

Nodal
11-19-2011, 03:51 PM
From reading botticus's posts, I can't see he added any of his opinions at all? Except for asking like 3 times if someone made a TTMafia wiki? Which is weird.

Dtsund seems mostly fine to me. Also why do you say that Dtsund is one of your top suspects? You've barely mentioned him at all.

McClain
11-19-2011, 03:53 PM
Wait, what? Dude has two posts, what's fishy about them? In fact, the only thing he did of note in the game is vote for you, which can easily be interpreted as a "you're not me" vote.

>Cough

You found this post pretty suspicious. But that's neither here nor there at this point.

>Agree

You agree that Kayma was suspicious for more than a low post count, recalling your accusation of him:


The problem I have is that you made a joke post and vanished for 48 hours, then came back, jumped on a bandwagon that could save your life, didn't explain your vote, bitched about the game, and then said you would go silent again.

You think that Nich is the only one who gets it:

I still don't think you really get how it works. McClain doesn't go after people because Mafia are likely to stay silent--he does it because he wants them to talk and make slipups. Saying "Mafia don't talk much, ergo we should lynch someone with a low post count," means all the Mafia have to do to stay out of the noose is go ahead and up the volume a little.

You don't really want to lynch low posters, nor do you ignore the loud people. You threaten low posters to get them talking to get information to make better informed lynches! If someone wants to stay quiet and get risk getting killed for it, so be it. But the goal is to encourage conversation (which is, after all, why we play this game).

McClain
11-19-2011, 04:02 PM
Dtsund seems mostly fine to me. Also why do you say that Dtsund is one of your top suspects? You've barely mentioned him at all.

> Open dtsund file

You check your notes on DTS:


Mildly suspect Voted Raven early (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1191258#post1191258).

Got defensive when pressed on resoning. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1192300#post1192300)

Really wanted (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1192322#post1192322) to stay out of the conversation about other suspects. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1192355#post1192355)


You admit that he was on your short list of suspects after hopefully getting Nodal to talk, but since Umby cracked the bottle, you figured you'd help yourself to a glass.

The thing you caution yourself against is that you aren't sure how you feel about Raven* (though your gut-read is "flailing excited townie"), and DT's narrow focus could be justified.

*Or Umby, for that matter.

You add that DT hasn't really contributed much since then or voted yet today, so you don't have much else to go on.

Destil
11-19-2011, 04:09 PM
You don't really want to lynch low posters, nor do you ignore the loud people. You threaten low posters to get them talking to get information to make better informed lynches! If someone wants to stay quiet and get risk getting killed for it, so be it. But the goal is to encourage conversation (which is, after all, why we play this game).

No, I get that, I'm wondering why three or four other people also accused Nodal at the same time, basically with back to back posts. Mob mentality I suppose.

poetfox
11-19-2011, 04:12 PM
Alrighty, so I re-read and re-looked and did many other things starting with the letters R and E.

First, random comments. Mogri's inability to ever read any rules makes me feel like he's less dirty than previously thought, because seriously, wouldn't someone on the bad side have read the rules? Or his buddies filled him in? I dunno. Not off the hook or anything, but eh.

I'm not feeling bad about my Raven vote. It seems like most people aren't on that general idea right now, and that is perfectly fine. But there's just something about the verbose abundance of how he posts to prove the most tiny little things that really puts me on edge. It reminds me of so many student papers where they're trying desperately to fill one more page in order to seem legit.

But again, that's not happening today, and I'm fine with sitting and waiting, because if I'm wrong, he is one of the more active players and that's always good to have.

Basically, I have one other person whom I feel fairly confident in being suspicious of, and that's schep. His first post of today, which I only skimmed last time through just... ugh, what? It's useless in so many ways, and his saying something like that and then immediately going "Okay, I know this looks weird, but I do this all the time so it's no big deal, trust me" just makes it worse.
And what's this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1194424&postcount=230)?
The whole point is that the fact I made the statement says nothing, but the statement itself is still capable of conveying content when necessary.
That is some really unclear writing to put up there with no further explanation. I mean, I think I get what he's saying, which is "Yeah, it means nothing, until it does!" but it reminds me of a line from Into the Woods. "When you first see me, I might seem mysterious, but you'll soon find out I'm nothing serious." Don't pay attention to me and what I'm doing, it says.

For now, I'll unaccuse Raven and I'll accuse schep.

Red Hedgehog
11-19-2011, 05:16 PM
No, I get that, I'm wondering why three or four other people also accused Nodal at the same time, basically with back to back posts. Mob mentality I suppose.

Because Nodal had the lowest post count and least substance in his posts of any remaining player? I'm not sure why that's hard to grasp.

Anyway, Nodal has at least posted some reasonable things today so I'll retract my accusation of Nodal.

dtsund, Nich, and schep come off as slightly suspicious to me and Brickroad seems the most useless of the remaining players so I'll do some analysis then throw a new vote down.

schep
11-19-2011, 05:56 PM
>schep: Post vote tally
Might as well, since you did all that work to see where you stand. You hope there are no mistakes.

botticus - 1:
The Giant Head

Brickroad - 1:
schep

Destil - 1:
Nich

dtsund - 3:
Umby
Raven
Destil

McClain - 1:
Brickroad

Nodal - 2:
Mogri
McClain
Red Hedgehog
Nich

poetfox - 1:
Nodal

schep - 2:
botticus
poetfox

Raven - 0:
poetfox

Not presently accusing anyone:
dtsund - No vote today.
Red Hedgehog - Recently withdrew an accusation of Nodal.
Yimothy - No vote today.

Umby
11-19-2011, 06:34 PM
I'd like to point out is when Poetfox randomly accused Raven for making some pretty apt observations, I thought she was pretty dirty as well. Now that she's changing her vote further to schep, I'm even more baffled. I know poetfox gets flak every games she's been in, but she looks almost as good as dtsund as a lynch.

It's just that it's obvious to me that dtsund isn't posting because he's absent. He's posting because he hopes he doesn't have to lift a finger for someone to save him. At least, that's if he's part of the crew.

dtsund
11-19-2011, 06:38 PM
> HBS: Cease crafting mines.

> HBS: Flip the fuck out.

I accuse dtsund.

He's trying to push off 'get the town to follow a bad plan' as mafia behavior. How often has that ever happened? All the midnight crew need to win is to not be lynched. Seems more like a good reason to accuse an innocent person than a good way to catch mafia.

That's not exactly what I was doing. I perceived Raven's actions as being potentially outright destructive, and possibly intentionally so, not simply as a proposal of a suboptimal plan. Bad plans can be rejected, but I saw it as being a possible attempt to make the Town waste a lot of time chasing their tails. Espeically given now...

If Brick is Mafia, we ignore him for now. It's much more important to find his team-mates and save him for last, simply because discussing about his lynch now is counter-productive and will only lead us to chaos.

...which is exactly the opposite of what he was doing yesterday. This seems to me, moreover, quite similar to the reasoning for which Raven was willing to accuse me yesterday. So I don't even know.

(But frankly, I'd be willing to kill Brickroad in the absence of another good target if he's not going to do anything.)

...apparently dtsund thought that I demanded the Vigilante to do what I want or that somehow I can mind-jack the Vig, whereas it should be clear that I only made a proposal/suggestion. This is just ridiculous. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1193841&postcount=205)

I don't think you have the capability to do that, but it looks kind of like you were trying. I think what ultimately set me off about that post was how the end reads like you were almost treating it as a foregone conclusion.

Anyway, since nobody else is really setting off my MIDNIGHT CREWMEN AND THEIR SNEAKY HORSESHITOMETER much at the moment, I guess I might as well accuse Raven again. Plus, I almost get the impression that you and Umby are in cahoots. Don't really care how it makes me look.

Umby
11-19-2011, 06:59 PM
Plus, I almost get the impression that you and Umby are in cahoots. Don't really care how it makes me look.

Admittedly, when I write my posts in support of Raven, I want to point out how I played as mafia last game. When you are mafia, you do as hard as you can NOT to connect yourself to other mafia in any way, shape, or form. If we were in cahoots, I wouldn't be so much in defense of Raven unless it looked like Raven was going to be in a close race with anyone else. I can understand why you would think so, dtsund, but it feels like you're just trying to rally a counterlynch!

Brickroad
11-19-2011, 07:00 PM
I accuse Raven.

Solitayre
11-19-2011, 07:08 PM
Vote Tallies

botticus: 1
The Giant Head

Nodal: 2
Mogri
McClain
Red Hedgehog
Nich

dtsund: 3
Umby
Raven
Destil

schep: 2
Raven
botticus
poetfox

McClain: 0
Brickroad

Brickroad: 1
schep

Raven: 2
poetfox
dtsund
Brickroad

Destil: 1
Nich

poetfox: 1
Nodal

Day ends in 24 hours.

Mogri
11-19-2011, 07:30 PM
>Vote for someone

You don't know whom to vote for!

>Analyze suspects

You currently suspect dtsund and schep. You think dtsund's reasons for accusing Raven are pretty weak, but the vote itself seems really arbitrary if he is an informed party.

On the other hand, poet's looked pretty fishy lately and her vote for schep gives you pause.

>Become paralyzed with indecision

That's not helpful!

>Accuse someone.

You accuse dtsund.

McClain
11-19-2011, 08:43 PM
> Apply pressure

You aren't really that opposed to any of the leading candidates so far, but your gut is still pretty iffy on Botticus, and as such, you think you should go ahead and vote for Botticus.

If it ends up tight between Schep and DT down the stretch you'd probably go for DT, but you will take another look at the case for both of them.

botticus
11-20-2011, 04:31 AM
> Next

You continue to find Botticus' logic strange. First, he explains his reasoning for his pool of suspects, but completely ignores your criticism of his actual suspect. He also seems to be willfully ignoring schep's recent posts. You also still don't understand why a good sleuth would deliberately ignore the majority of suspects when he himself described a scenario where there would be MC in the outlier votes (which is usually how it works on day 1).

You get the feeling that he picked a target and then looked for reasons to vote for him, not the other way around.

I related the content of schep's posts, there was no comment on whether I agreed with them. For example, much like my post about the modkill strategy being stupid, someone else saying the modkill strategy is stupid doesn't really tell me they're innocent.

Since that point, schep has related his suspicion list, voted for Brick, and clarified his accusation of Brick. That's better information, and something I will consider as they day winds down, but does not make his Day 1 activity irrelevant.

To correct you, I picked a group of people to look at based on voting, and then dug into whether any of them gave me any other reason to vote for them.

Umby
11-20-2011, 11:56 AM
> Get angry.

All right, the quietness today is really bugging me. I want to see our two top lynch candidates, dtsund and schep, defend their positions and say why they shouldn't be lynched. If one doesn't respond, there's no reason for us to not lynch them. This is ridiculous, it's day two and nobody's talking.

Most of all, you, Brickroad. What's your deal!? And Nich, I have my eye on you, you've been particularly unhelpful and I have a sinking suspicion that you're not one of us.

If I happen to die over the night, which is unlikely but possible, this is who I want to have looked at:
Nich
dtsund (if he doesn't get lynched today)
Poetfox
Nodal

Seriously.

McClain
11-20-2011, 12:42 PM
This is how I feel about everyone who isn't voting for Raven, so it works out!

> Wonder what's so special about Raven.

While you don't really blame Nich for suspecting Raven, you wonder why he's such an obvious candidate and why Nich is suspicious of anyone who doesn't jump on board right now.

Personally your read on Raven is that he's being too scattered for Mafia, but you always could be wrong.

Umby
11-20-2011, 02:37 PM
Unless I'm missing something, his entire argument for Raven today is that he "continues to be slippery and weird (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1194052#post1194052)" without bothering to cite a single example on his own. Why is that, Nich? Do you just not give a shit or what?

And again, this is why I'm really looking at Nich. Last game, he was very much on the ball and making some educated guesses. This game, he looks completely different. I'm not sure what to make of it.

Raven
11-20-2011, 02:44 PM
Perhaps he's "still not feeling it today."

I read Raven's post, and then thought, "man, I dunno, Raven seems like a way better lynch to me than K-Bro. Maybe I can convince this guy to vote for Raven with me instead."

...Yeah. My mind is just not in it today.

Note that all his posts today are either blatant padding, or safe & pointless moves. If I'm not so keen on taking care of dtsund first (whose defense post practically clarified everything I said about him), I would definitely have my final vote on Nich. There's still tomorrow, of course.

McClain
11-20-2011, 02:52 PM
I related the content of schep's posts, there was no comment on whether I agreed with them. For example, much like my post about the modkill strategy being stupid, someone else saying the modkill strategy is stupid doesn't really tell me they're innocent.

Since that point, schep has related his suspicion list, voted for Brick, and clarified his accusation of Brick. That's better information, and something I will consider as they day winds down, but does not make his Day 1 activity irrelevant.

To correct you, I picked a group of people to look at based on voting, and then dug into whether any of them gave me any other reason to vote for them.

> Frown

This post does nothing to quell your suspicions. There's a bit of "I may change my vote" in here, but mostly it just sounds like circle talk. You wouldn't be surprised at all if Botticus managed to stay quiet for the rest of the day and never really get around to looking at other suspects (except now that he's been called out on it, maybe he will?).



Note that all his posts today are either blatant padding, or safe & pointless moves. If I'm not so keen on taking care of dtsund first (whose defense post practically clarified everything I said about him), I would definitely have my final vote on Nich. There's still tomorrow, of course.

You think that if Raven wants to vote for Nich then he should just go ahead and do it. Unless you are missreading this post and he does still suspect DTS. It's really hard to tell.

Raven
11-20-2011, 03:02 PM
You think that if Raven wants to vote for Nich then he should just go ahead and do it. Unless you are missreading this post and he does still suspect DTS. It's really hard to tell.

No, I'm totally still on dtsund. After all, Nich did have a few reasonable posts very early in the game...before he went completely bizarro afterward.