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View Full Version : Postmodern superhero comics of note


Olli T
03-16-2013, 03:53 AM
I started thinking of how most of my favorite comics are about superheroes, but they're really more comics that take the idea of comic superheroes and go somewhere different, if you see what I mean?

Take for example Alan Moore's Watchmen, which is generally considered a masterpiece of the graphic novel medium. It's a story with superheroes, sure, but at the same time it's much more than what you get from your usual Marvel or DC fare. It inspects the differing motivations of costumed vigilantes, contrasts comic-book super powers with real world super powers, reflects real cold-war anxieties and has several kinds of intertextuality (including an allegorical story-within-a-story).

Grant Morrison's Animal Man run takes a different approach. He takes a bog-standard superhero of the past and enchances AM's "connection to animals" powers to such a level that eventually the character becomes aware of his own fictionality. Morrison's Animal Man is also notable for becoming an openly vegetarian hero and an animal rights activist with stories that feature him taking the side of self-proclaimed eco-terrorists.

Warren Ellis is maybe less literary than Moore or Morrison, but he's pretty great at ignoring standard conventions of superhero comics. Ellis's run of Authority has the supremely powerful protagonists basically take control of the world, acting as its benevolent dictators. In Planetary, Ellis takes a more meta-fictional approach, having the titular Planetary organization investigate something like an alternate history of familiar (but, probably due to copyright reasons, altered) heroes from other fictional worlds including, but not limited to, classic superhero comics and pulp novels.

Kurt Busiek's Astro City features a lot of quite standard superheroism, but the viewpoint is different from usual. It features dozens of recurring and fleshed-out superpowered characters, but the approach is such that the series seems to be about life in Astro City itself. Only indirectly we learn about the superheroes in it. A common storyline is an outsider individual or family moving into Astro City and witnessing some super-powered conflict or happening. Sometimes the viewpoint is with the heroes or the villains, but even then, the story shows a more human side to the of the characters.

Other things that came to mind:
* Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - superheroes replaced with characters and events from public domain fiction + lots of metafictional crazy shit
* Top 10 - a superpowered police force in a Hill Street Blues type procedural
* Gotham Central - police procedural with the non-superpowered police department in Batman's home city
* Concrete - Aliens turn a regular guy into a nigh-immortal artificial stone creature. Instead of immediately becoming a crime-fighting hero, he faces an emotionally difficult life where he tries to find purpose and connection

Adrenaline
03-16-2013, 06:52 AM
Have you read Ex Machina?

Olli T
03-16-2013, 07:20 AM
Have you read Ex Machina?

Nope! The name is familiar, but I haven't read it.

BŁge
03-16-2013, 08:18 AM
Nope! The name is familiar, but I haven't read it.

It's about a guy who gets machine-controlling superpowers from a weird alien widget, and the book is about his tenure as mayor of New York City. It's a very interesting and dramatic series.

Unfortunately, it's also written by Bryan K. Vaughan, which means BAD END.

Fredde
03-16-2013, 12:29 PM
Marvel did a thing in the 80s called "New Universe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Universe)" that was intended to be a slightly more realistic superhero universe. I read a collection of Star Brand, one of the New Universe characters, who's a regular guy that gets Green Lantern-style powers and doesn't really seem to know exactly what to do with them.

Olli T
03-16-2013, 01:11 PM
Haven't heard of New Universe, but Marvel has always been a bit more "how superheroes would work in real life" (see: Spider-Man) than DC:s "let's have some crazy shit" (see: Batman). Ultimate Marvel even more so.

Mark Millar's The Ultimates is totally ripping off Authority in that big invasion storyline, by the way.

Bongo Bill
03-16-2013, 01:30 PM
Alan Moore's run on Rob Liefeld's Supreme is worth a mention in this thread. It is a Superman comic in all but name. I shall describe the premise.

At the start of his run, the titular Superman knockoff experiences a retcon, as comic book characters are known to do. However, due to some anomaly, he is aware of this revision before the new continuity begins, rather than after; the first thing he does is visit a sort of afterlife populated by all (doubly fictitious) previous versions of the character. He is unique among all of the Supremes in that he is able to play out his career aware of the fact that reality is being filled in around him. Although he can remember his past, he is aware that this past did not exist until he remembered it.

Most issues have one or more flashbacks to earlier events in his life, and these flashbacks are drawn in the style of Superman comics in the time the flashback took place. One of the artists Moore found does a really excellent Curt Swan impression. Meanwhile, the stuff taking place in the present - the 90s - is drawn in that scratchy Rob Liefeld/Jim Lee style.

It managed to consummate a few of its more ambitious concepts, but it was canceled before it could really explore the idea. The final issue abandons the established plot in favor of a really amazing one-off Jack Kirby tribute.

It gets even more meta by having Supreme's alter ego - his Clark Kent, if you will - be an artist of superhero comics (in one issue, an ersatz Mxyzptlk makes the character he draws come to life), and the Jimmy Olsen analogue an obnoxiously edgy British comic book writer.

KCar
03-16-2013, 01:54 PM
I think postmodern comics reflect the arc of postmodernism itself. In the beginning (Watchmen), there was an attempt to interrogate the genre to expose some of its unsaid assumptions. Over time, however, that form of questioning became a style in and of itself that requires more unpacking - for instance, anything Mark Millar writes actually indulges in the kind of sadistic power fantasy that Moore managed to uncover.

In this, Frank Miller was actually way ahead of his time.

Evil Dead Junkie
03-16-2013, 02:10 PM
Read as a work of criticism rather than a typical Millarian exercise in buttonpushing Wanted is actually pretty smart. One of the best bits in Supergods qas Morrisons's analysis of it.

BŁge
03-16-2013, 02:45 PM
Read as a work of criticism rather than a typical Millarian exercise in buttonpushing Wanted is actually pretty smart. One of the best bits in Supergods qas Morrisons's analysis of it.

It's a criticism aimed at the reader, though.

Octopus Prime
03-16-2013, 02:49 PM
Said critisism being a bit wasted on me since I kind of totally hated that comic anyway.

I Was kind of expecting it to be more like the movie it shares a name with.

Adrenaline
03-16-2013, 04:00 PM
Unfortunately, it's also written by Bryan K. Vaughan, which means BAD END.

Oh so it's not just me

Reinforcements
03-18-2013, 06:13 AM
You know, I generally disagree with people who say that Liefeld isn't as bad his reputation - as a writer and artist, I mean - but he does seem to be a pretty cool guy when it comes to giving up-and-comers a chance and generally being a steward of the medium. For example, he's been letting other people do their own takes on his licenses. So this (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/post/15479440045/okay-and-now-it-begins-bring-on-the-liefeld) (mildly NSFW) becomes this:
http://i1.cdnds.net/11/51/618x941/screen-shot-2011-12-20-at-09.16

Googleshng
03-18-2013, 09:54 AM
Does One Punch Man count for this? Or is stripping all tension from DBZ too far removed from " postmodern superhero comics" to qualify?

Eddie
03-18-2013, 11:12 AM
Does One Punch Man count for this? Or is stripping all tension from DBZ too far removed from " postmodern superhero comics" to qualify?

I also get the feeling when reading it that the author REALLY WANTED to do a typical shonen comic, but somewhere along the way was told that a comedy making fun of the genre would get him more votes in the ranking.

Joe McGuffin
03-18-2013, 12:31 PM
I will always give Liefeld credit for coming up with a genuinely innovative idea in Youngblood (a superteam that behaves like a pro sports team or celebrities), but his skills as a writer and artist were and are far too weak to do it any justice. Extra demerits for not having gotten any better at his craft in twenty-odd years, but to be fair, his comics usually still sell really well when he bothers to make them so it's not like he has any incentive to bother. And yes, it is cool that he's fine with giving folks like Alan Moore, Brandon Graham, and Joe Keatinge & Ross Campbell complete free reign to do whatever they want with his babies.

McClain
03-18-2013, 12:46 PM
It's probably more parody then postmodern, but I enjoyed the hell out of Next Wave.

waterpot
03-18-2013, 12:51 PM
I also get the feeling when reading it that the author REALLY WANTED to do a typical shonen comic, but somewhere along the way was told that a comedy making fun of the genre would get him more votes in the ranking.

But it was a webcomic before everything
http://galaxyheavyblow.web.fc2.com/index.html
Like your average drunkduck comic until the japan marvel/dc variant
Came along

Octopus Prime
03-18-2013, 02:32 PM
It's probably more parody then postmodern, but I enjoyed the hell out of Next Wave.

Of course, saying you enjoy Nextwave is like saying that you like "chairs" or "having a one-way digestive system".

BŁge
03-18-2013, 02:55 PM
And yes, it is cool that he's fine with giving folks like Alan Moore, Brandon Graham, and Joe Keatinge & Ross Campbell complete free reign to do whatever they want with his babies.

Unless they make them gay.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wKC3_nFSKg4/ULMs5jlD3zI/AAAAAAAABQM/06qz6g6BbAM/s1600/003.jpg

Bongo Bill
03-18-2013, 03:01 PM
You know, I generally disagree with people who say that Liefeld isn't as bad his reputation - as a writer and artist, I mean - but he does seem to be a pretty cool guy when it comes to giving up-and-comers a chance and generally being a steward of the medium.

Rob Liefeld is a pretty stand-up guy, and can't be held culpable for the extreme popularity of his lack of technical proficiency.

Does One Punch Man count for this? Or is stripping all tension from DBZ too far removed from " postmodern superhero comics" to qualify?

One Punch Man is very much about superheroes, it's definitely postmodern, and it's quite unambiguously a comic, so proced.

Sanagi
03-18-2013, 05:41 PM
Please let's not talk about Rob Liefeld.

Please let's talk about Understanding Comics.
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/9734/tumblrl7rgcqwsmg1qzfmh5.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/tumblrl7rgcqwsmg1qzfmh5.jpg/)

(I know, it's not superheroes, but it's tops in the post-modern department)

Excitemike
03-18-2013, 06:49 PM
Rob Liefeld is post-modern. All of the finishing detail of Miller, Simonson, Byrne, et al but with none of the foundation. The very nadir of style over substance. Everything produced in the Silver Age is an arrow pointing straight to Rob Liefeld. He was our fate, our destiny, our Hell... and our salvation.

Bongo Bill
03-18-2013, 07:11 PM
I don't think it counts for the purposes of this conversation if it's unintentional.

Right now, Tom Scioli is writing and drawing Satan's Soldier (http://www.ambarb.com/?cat=78), a webcomic apparently related to Final Frontier and American Barbarian, which is dealing with the concept of an evil superhero. Not a supervillain, but a superhero who saves the world, but also literally drowns babies. It's very experimental in form, as well.

Everything you need to know about it is on the third page, where he puts his thumbs inside a minion's mouth, and says, "I don't care about right or wrong. I don't care about ideology. Your cause. That place you were going to blow up is very dear to me." and then pops his head off. So yeah, it's good stuff.

Olli T
03-20-2013, 04:00 AM
Pat Mills belongs in this thread for many reasons: Judge Dredd, Marshal Law, Nemesis the Warlock and others. It's kind of debatable to call most of his work as superhero comics (Marshal Law is pretty clear cut), but it would be an omission to leave for example Judge Dredd out. He's a gruff hero who saves the world all the time, but he is also a fascist future policeman with the right to kill criminals on the spot! And he believes that everyone is criminal, it's just a matter of finding out their crimes.

As for Garth Ennis, I haven't read The Boys, but based on the description, it seems to fit the thread description. I don't know if it really brings anything new to the table, though, if compared to things like Marshal Law. He seems to be a good-if-not-great superhero writer, but I'm not sure if he's actually pushing the genre to a new level. His best work is maybe done in other projects like Preacher and Crossed.

Ample Vigour
03-20-2013, 09:25 AM
Ennis' best work was Hitman which used a ridiculously 90s character to highlight the pointlessness of further deconstruction of icons like superman and green lantern

Ample Vigour
03-20-2013, 09:26 AM
Ennis then spent the rest of his career deconstructing icons like superman and green lantern

The Raider Dr. Jones
03-20-2013, 10:04 AM
Ennis' best work was Hitman which used a ridiculously 90s character to highlight the pointlessness of further deconstruction of icons like superman and green lantern

Hitman also forced Ennis to operate under the restrictions of a roughly PG-13-ish content rating which handily reined in his tendencies to fall back on easy anal rape humor and so forth.

The Boys has its moments but is by and large not very good. Really it has one point to make and it's made by the time the series is like one-eighth over.

Marshal Law has aged in weird ways since the '80s and the later strips go completely to shit but the first three stories (original series, Crime and Punishment, Kingdom of the Blind) are pretty solid. The first one in particular dissects superhero comics in just the absolute crudest possible Freudian terms; I felt a certain amount of shame as I laughed my ass off, but there ya go. (Alan Moore summed it up to the effect of, "If Watchmen killed the superhero, Marshal Law is fucking the corpse.")

Wanted I generally interpret as Mark Millar running an experiment on his readership, i.e., "Can I get mainstream comics fans to cheerfully root for and identify with an unapologetic rapist/murderer?" The answer turned out to be a big yes, which really kinda worries me whenever I let myself think about it too much.

Ample Vigour
03-20-2013, 10:16 AM
could grown ass men who still take juvenile power fantasies seriously tend to be rabidly antisocial?!???!

put on the coffee, we'll be pondering this one late into the night

Googleshng
03-20-2013, 10:56 AM
Really internet? Really? You can't just give me like, a page from this on someone's blog talking about it or anything, it HAS to be someone scanning it, uploading it as a youtube video, and blaring their terrible taste in music across it? Well OK then. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyIc8SiiZ8o)

Evil Dead Junkie
03-20-2013, 11:35 AM
The Goon had a pretty great issue a while back that basically took down everything wrong with the modern comics industry.

Excitemike
03-20-2013, 11:39 AM
Does Suicide Squad count? Is the answer academic since no one but me reads it?

Nodal
03-20-2013, 11:41 AM
could grown ass men who still take juvenile power fantasies seriously tend to be rabidly antisocial?!???!

put on the coffee, we'll be pondering this one late into the night

says the man whose major input on the board is cataloging the adventures of men hitting other men

Dizzy
03-20-2013, 12:49 PM
OH SNAP


Postmodern superhero comics are a waste of time for readers and a waste of effort for artists. It doesn't take much brainpower to deduce the deep flaws of the superhero genre. No one should engage in it with any earnestness past childhood.

To my fellow comic book artists: we all know the only reason why you're engaged in metafictional wankery and "deconstructive" criticism via slickly-drawn comic book panels with references to 18th century literature is because you have no real talent when it comes to entertaining and genuinely fascinating storytelling.

"Well, I was just trying to do something different--" No, you were trying to rake together the pop culture trash that clutters your mind and act as if the disorientation and cynical trappings of your regurgitated crap should count you a genius among mortals. It does not. You are a fraud. Be ashamed.

Ample Vigour
03-20-2013, 01:05 PM
says the man whose major input on the board is cataloging the adventures of men hitting other men

http://i.imgur.com/wsnejDR.gif

BEAT
03-20-2013, 01:12 PM
Please let's talk about Understanding Comics.
GLASSES_MOTHERFUCKER.jpg

Every time I see glasses motherfucker I just want to beat him to death.

Is this normal?

Ample Vigour
03-20-2013, 01:36 PM
I think it's his plaid blazer + t shirt look

Evil Dead Junkie
03-20-2013, 01:58 PM
Already on the second page and not a single Grant Morrison comic mentioned?

I'm impressed.

Dizzy
03-20-2013, 02:15 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Wu7IjjT.gif

Equitable food and wealth distribution are better ideals.

Excitemike
03-20-2013, 02:21 PM
Already on the second page and not a single Grant Morrison comic mentioned?

I'm impressed.

The first post does.

Evil Dead Junkie
03-20-2013, 02:42 PM
Well... fine.

BŁge
03-20-2013, 04:58 PM
To my fellow comic book artists: we all know the only reason why you're engaged in metafictional wankery and "deconstructive" criticism via slickly-drawn comic book panels with references to 18th century literature is because you have no real talent when it comes to entertaining and genuinely fascinating storytelling.

Actually, I think that tendency comes from a desire for profits. The 1980s proved there's money in deconstructivism, which is why the industry keeps spinning its wheels.

KCar
03-20-2013, 05:05 PM
Every time I see glasses motherfucker I just want to beat him to death.

Is this normal?

Fugu?

Bongo Bill
03-20-2013, 05:57 PM
Deconstruction is just one of many kinds of things that can be called postmodern.

In fact, superheroes have arguably been postmodern since the Silver Age, but that's a different issue.

How could I forget one of the most memorable examples, though? I'm certain most of you know The Non-Adventures of Wonderella (http://nonadventures.com/). The title character is a parody of Wonder Woman, with a more strongly defined personality than Wonder Woman ever had. A freewheeling hedonist, she doesn't appear to take superheroics or life seriously (which is to her advantage because the world of a comedy superhero is not a very serious one), and is sometimes contrasted against her more conventionally heroic mother, from whom she inherited the title.

BEAT
03-21-2013, 01:26 AM
Fugu?

Well obviously.

Olli T
03-21-2013, 02:06 AM
Deconstruction is just one of many kinds of things that can be called postmodern.

Well, what else is there that applies to comics? I mean, the way I think about it, postmodern superhero comics are reacting to preceding decades of superhero work in some substantial way. They question genre staples like the morality and motivations of heroes and villains, offer alternative viewpoints, experiment with unconventional art styles and story structures. I don't know if this all falls under deconstruction?

Many facets from the art side overlap with the general maturing and technical improvement of the comic book medium - better printing quality for example allows visually much more complex works, but that's not a postmodern change in my mind. We still get basically the same old Spider-Man stories these days, only on glossy paper and with sparkly Photoshop colors. The writing is generally better too, but that's an incremental improvement as well.

Healy
03-21-2013, 09:32 AM
Well, what else is there that applies to comics? I mean, the way I think about it, postmodern superhero comics are reacting to preceding decades of superhero work in some substantial way. They question genre staples like the morality and motivations of heroes and villains, offer alternative viewpoints, experiment with unconventional art styles and story structures. I don't know if this all falls under deconstruction?

I'll let Bongo handle the brunt of this, but there are works I might consider post-modern that aren't necessarily deconstructionist, like Grant Morrison's run on JLA, which had for the very first arc antagonists that pretended to be heroes. It addressed some of the complaints that dog superhero comics in the format of a "straight" superhero comic.

Zef
03-21-2013, 09:46 AM
http://i.imgur.com/Wu7IjjT.gif

.

How come most superheroes ARE assholes, then?

Excitemike
03-21-2013, 10:08 AM
Superheroes are fascists. The undermine the rule of law and destroy private property with their turf wars. The reason I like Judge Dredd is because at least he is honest about it.

Sanagi
03-21-2013, 11:34 AM
What I like about superheroes is their individualism. They're outsiders who define their own identities and celebrate their weirdnesses. They reject the boundaries and expectations of society but are ultimately benevolent and fight to prove their worth. It's true, and regrettable, that this tends to take the form of muscle guys beating up muggers. I'm not so into that, and I think it becomes problematic when these characters are taken too seriously.

Dizzy
03-21-2013, 11:42 AM
I like the X-Men more than any other superheroes because their powers have some science fiction basis and they deal with more social and political issues than other superheroes.

Meanwhile Batman is still a psychopathic billionaire vigilante whose worst villain is a murderous clown. A clown.

Excitemike
03-21-2013, 12:01 PM
Uh, clowns are pretty scary. They should all be locked up.

Octopus Prime
03-21-2013, 12:09 PM
I like the X-Men more than any other superheroes because their powers have some science fiction basis and they deal with more social and political issues than other superheroes.


They also fight a 5,000 year-old blue Egyptian man who named himself Apocalypse with the aid of the time-traveling old-man who is actually the infant son of one of the founding members.

Zef
03-21-2013, 12:18 PM
They also fight a 5,000 year-old blue Egyptian man who named himself Apocalypse with the aid of the time-traveling old-man who is actually the infant son of one of the founding members.

Isn't it amazing how well Marvel's heroes speak to the very same social issues teenagers have faced since the 1960s?

Bongo Bill
03-21-2013, 01:11 PM
Well, what else is there that applies to comics? I mean, the way I think about it, postmodern superhero comics are reacting to preceding decades of superhero work in some substantial way. They question genre staples like the morality and motivations of heroes and villains, offer alternative viewpoints, experiment with unconventional art styles and story structures. I don't know if this all falls under deconstruction?

Postmodernism doesn't have to mean a questioning of the work's inherent premises. A basic postmodern theme is the subjectivity of reality, especially when expressed through metaphor; deconstruction is just one way to accomplish that. Postmodernism is also frequently concerned with the subversion of the expectations born by form rather than genre. In this light, even your basic silver age Superman story, with a cover that invites you to wonder why Superman is being such an asshole to his friends, is postmodern - the purpose of the entire story is to establish a situation in which the iconic powerful do-gooder appears craven or cruel.

Most characters that Stan Lee had a hand in were basically modernist at their inception: greatly they suffered from the dualities forced on them by their powers. (The fact that the serial nature of their publication prevented them from ever attaining existential reconciliation is immaterial as long as they kept wanting it.) On the other hand, the fact that all their competing worldviews and more coexisted in a shared setting can be regarded as a pretty postmodern concept, as the sheer heterogeneity of that universe is so pronounced as to constitute a statement on the futility of attempting to understand the world through a single lens. And don't even get me started on the Beyonder.

The Raider Dr. Jones
03-21-2013, 01:16 PM
dude please get started on the Beyonder.

(oh boy this is gonna be good)

Bongo Bill
03-21-2013, 01:22 PM
I don't actually know enough about the Beyonder to get started. I was bluffing. Sorry.

Octopus Prime
03-21-2013, 01:23 PM
I don't actually know enough about the Beyonder to get started. I was bluffing. Sorry.

I have never been more disappointed in you, Bongo.

Olli T
03-21-2013, 02:02 PM
As it happens, I was just reading through Secret Wars. The Beyonder is a pretty cool guy, kind of like God except he likes to intervene more and he doesn't really give a shit.

Loki
03-21-2013, 02:02 PM
deconstructivism,

http://i.imgur.com/FKj5h2p.jpg ???

You kids with your TVTropes educations.

Mogri
03-21-2013, 02:13 PM
You kids with your TVTropes educations.

Loki, if you can't say anything constructivistic, don't say anything at all.

psst it's your dwarfy dwarf turn

Zef
03-21-2013, 02:20 PM
As it happens, I was just reading through Secret Wars. The Beyonder is a pretty cool guy, kind of like God except he likes to intervene more and he doesn't really give a shit.

Didn't Spider Man teach him about that in Secret Wars II? Now THERE's your existential reconciliation.

Bongo Bill
03-21-2013, 02:20 PM
The TV Tropes understanding of the term, while far broader and shallower than the concept it properly refers to, is at least in the right ballpark when applied to literary media. Those poor kids would have no idea how to apply it to architecture, though. Good thing superheroes aren't buildings.

Excitemike
03-21-2013, 02:27 PM
I don't actually know enough about the Beyonder to get started. I was bluffing. Sorry.

All I know is that Spider-Man taught him how to make potty, and that is good enough for me.

Ample Vigour
03-21-2013, 02:44 PM
Bongoposts make me so happy

Loki
03-21-2013, 03:00 PM
The TV Tropes understanding of the term, while far broader and shallower than the concept it properly refers to, is at least in the right ballpark when applied to literary media. Those poor kids would have no idea how to apply it to architecture, though. Good thing superheroes aren't buildings.

Yes but Deconstructivism specifically refers to architecture. So it's not even wrong in the TVTropes sense. Though the mistake would have never been made if it wasn't for the TVTropes bastardization of Deconstruction.

Dizzy
03-21-2013, 03:14 PM
I know you're all insecure about BongoBill being smarter than you ever will be, but that is no reason to harp on a small error in word choice on his part--especially when everyone but you knew what the man meant (hence his genius). No need to condescend with the TVTropes remark, which has obviously provided people with far richer cultural resources than the ones you've had access to.

(And everyone knows it was Jacques Derrida who invented deconstruction, which is practiced and understood today in a manner he himself did not advocate, because not even he was certain on the definition and practices of the term because he stole it from Martin Heidegger, whose non-fiction novel Being and Time served as an inspiration for the first generation of comic book artists who created the superhero genre and inspired generations of men to become patriotic warmongers, and remember Heidegger was a Nazi, so the superhero genre is technically fascist propaganda and so is its postmodernist variation since Derrida recouped his postmodern thought from a Nazi philosopher. Go ahead and fact check all this.)

Bongo Bill
03-21-2013, 03:16 PM
Nah, it's a fair cop. Sloppy reading on my part - "deconstructivism" is not the same as "deconstruction."

Dizzy
03-21-2013, 03:16 PM
Ah, okay. I'm sorry, Loki. I take all that back.

Adrenaline
03-23-2013, 03:46 PM
Hey guys Kick Ass am I right

BŁge
03-23-2013, 05:35 PM
Hey guys Kick Ass am I right

http://files.list.co.uk/images/2010/04/14/nemesis-LST071868-T.jpg

BEAT
03-27-2013, 02:20 PM
Is that Edgy or a Parody of edgy?

Or an edgy parody of edgy that pushes edgy too far?!

I can't tell anymore.

Octopus Prime
03-27-2013, 02:33 PM
Millar has no concept of subtlety or tact. It is entirely possible he has never even heard the words, let alone the concept.

I assure you that it was earnest.

Evil Dead Junkie
03-27-2013, 02:51 PM
I have to admit I kind of have a weird affection for Millar. I can't help but like anyone who is so dedicated to being a vulgarian.

Also Frank Quitely is drawing his next book so at least it will look pretty, and come out every seven months or so.

Jeanie
03-27-2013, 03:00 PM
I think it was Journey into Mystery #645 had a great ending where Kid Loki "beat" Old Loki because he was able to change his nature, while the mysterious "They" wouldn't let Old Loki change.

Octopus Prime
03-27-2013, 03:09 PM
What about Final Crisis, where, among other things, it's revealed that the reason there are so many Superman knock-offs in comics is because the whole of creation was built around making sure that something was capable of fighting the Dark Monitor.

And the fact that the Dark Monitor was effectively an omnicidal comic book fan.

Jeanie
03-27-2013, 03:10 PM
What about Final Crisis, where, among other things, it's revealed that the reason there are so many Superman knock-offs in comics is because the whole of creation was built around making sure that something was capable of fighting the Dark Monitor.

And the fact that the Dark Monitor was effectively an omnicidal comic book fan.

And Superboy-Prime is an Internet Troll.

Octopus Prime
03-27-2013, 04:33 PM
And Batman is uncreated after he shoots crime in the chest.

Evil Dead Junkie
03-27-2013, 04:59 PM
Man I really wish that The Final Crisis that Morrison and his apologists described resembled at all the disjointed mess I read.

I'm not being snarky that sounds like a book I would like to read.

I just find it so broken on a narrative level. Who are these people? Why are we in Japan? Wait where are we going now? When did everything get destroyed. Oh shit Time Kompression is a fucking plot point?

Octopus Prime
03-27-2013, 05:59 PM
I needed to read FC about three times before I could figure out anything.

I think that Mr. Morrison was slinging around a little too much Chaos Magick when it came to scripting...

Rascally Badger
03-27-2013, 07:10 PM
Am I the only one who had no trouble following Final Crisis? Its not really that complex or disjointed, though I will admit it seems like its missing an issue around 3 or 4. Do the people who think it is a mess read Superman Beyond as part of the book, because it should have been a part of the series itself instead of a spin off. And its the best part of Final Crisis, so it should be read.

Octopus Prime
03-27-2013, 07:17 PM
The compiled Final Crisis includes Superman Beyond as well as a couple of the more important stand-alone issues (Submit and... Something else, I forget), and while I love everything that happened in Beyond, it was also the single most confusing comic I had ever read.

"I'll try to plug the hole in Forever" is not a line that is even comprehensible, but BY GOD Superman does it!

Excitemike
03-27-2013, 08:30 PM
I liked Final Crisis better the first time I read it, when it was called DC One Million.

I actually only read Final Crisis once, but generally you need to read Morrison stuff a couple of times.

Sanagi
03-27-2013, 08:52 PM
I like Grant Morrison and I like crazy mind-blowing non-linear type stuff but sometimes when he does it I just find it to be tedious nonsense that deflates whatever drama the story was building up. The end of Seven Soldiers of Victory, for example.

Evil Dead Junkie
03-27-2013, 09:40 PM
Am I the only one who had no trouble following Final Crisis? Its not really that complex or disjointed, though I will admit it seems like its missing an issue around 3 or 4. Do the people who think it is a mess read Superman Beyond as part of the book, because it should have been a part of the series itself instead of a spin off. And its the best part of Final Crisis, so it should be read.

To me it's not that the plot is complex it's that the narrative is just so weirdly unmotivated. We're in New York, Justice League investigating God Murder and Time Bullets, so far I'm with you, then we cut to Japan why? I don't know, but hey it's a barfight, I suppose you're going to introduce these characters now right? No. Well OK, I guess we'll pick up their importance lat- Oh hey it's the end of time, sure well. OK fucking Moniters, well lets establish what's happening- Oh God damnit now we're on Oa.

It never bothers to develop a narrative it just cuts back and forth between a bunch of different competing ones as if that's the same thing.

Spoiler Alert: It's not.

Octopus Prime
03-28-2013, 04:59 AM
I liked Final Crisis better the first time I read it, when it was called DC One Million.

I actually only read Final Crisis once, but generally you need to read Morrison stuff a couple of times.

Nonsense, Mike, Final Crisis was called Rock of Ages the first time around.

BŁge
03-28-2013, 10:46 AM
I can understand EDJ's problem. Reading Final Crisis start to finish felt weird and disjointed to me too, before I learned that it was one of those events that had a lot of essential tie-ins needed to understand where the characters were going and what they were doing.

I think I would have preferred The New 52 to have happened after Final Crisis rather than delaying it so they could squeeze out Blackest Night.

The Raider Dr. Jones
03-28-2013, 11:11 AM
speaking of Blackest Night was there ever a thread here about how that was the most unintentionally hilarious thing since like Catholicism?

Zef
03-28-2013, 11:35 AM
There was an unintentionally hilarious comic book about Catholicism? How much did they get wrong?

BŁge
03-28-2013, 12:10 PM
There was an unintentionally hilarious comic book about Catholicism? How much did they get wrong?

You mean Serenity?

http://www.paragonsigma.com/tempuploads/serenity/11.jpg

I don't think it was Catholic, specifically.

Zef
03-28-2013, 12:26 PM
Why is the girl from Kingdom Hearts PSP picking a fight with FFV's Krile?

BŁge
03-28-2013, 01:31 PM
She must feel lonely.

Alex Scott
03-28-2013, 03:00 PM
Nah, Buzz Dixon's evangelical. I think. He used to post a lot on the CBR boards.

I remember about ten years ago Morrison talked about wanting to somehow make the DC Universe self-aware. I always kinda wanted to see that.

I guess Final Crisis was a step in that direction, but then, you know, Flashpoint...

Reinforcements
03-30-2013, 09:19 PM
Has there ever actually been a good comic about the DC universe as a whole (as opposed to being about one particular superhero)? Every one I've ever read (Crisis on Infinite Earths, Blackest Night, Identity Crisis, Kingdom Come, Justice) has been terrible.

Wait, I just thought of one - New Frontier. Which is Darwyn Cooke, so I mean, of course.

Eddie
03-30-2013, 09:49 PM
Has there ever actually been a good comic about the DC universe as a whole (as opposed to being about one particular superhero)? Every one I've ever read (Crisis on Infinite Earths, Blackest Night, Identity Crisis, Kingdom Come, Justice) has been terrible..

I think you're probably just a snob. Especially since Kingdom Come was amazing.

Bongo Bill
03-30-2013, 09:52 PM
I was going to mention New Frontier, but you beat me to it. There was JLA/Avengers, which was everything a cheesy megacrossover should be. I thought 52 was pretty good, though your tastes may vary. Lots of Elseworlds, like Superman: Red Son, end up being about the whole universe anyway.

But really, if you want the best of DC, your best bet is usually the DCAU.

I can see why Kingdom Come might leave a bad taste in some readers' mouths, because it's very sensitive to context, but I liked it.

Octopus Prime
03-31-2013, 04:58 AM
Kingdoms Come was Pretty Great for me as well, and I loved Justice as well, though I guess I can see where someone might dislike it.

My flat-out favorite DC crossover story was, by far, One Million. Pity that the only TPB of it is just the main bit of that story, with little written synopsis of the important bits of the story that weren't printed. Pretty much the worst way to handle that.

Especially since it cuts out Superman fighting PERFECT GEOMETRIC SOLIDS and every single superhero from the 853rd Century.

Reinforcements
03-31-2013, 08:54 AM
Okay, so I pulled Kingdom Come off the shelf and realized I was conflating it with Justice. I don't really remember KC much at all, except that Magog is a dick. I should read it again.

Identity Crisis is seriously the worst though. Also there's Tornado's Path, because both Marvel and DC need a robot who's really sad about the fact that he's a robot.

Ample Vigour
04-02-2013, 02:40 PM
th ebest crisis comic was the MICES on Infinite Earths two-parter in the DC adaptation of the john k mighty mouse revival

Ample Vigour
04-02-2013, 02:41 PM
Theres a scene where the original Super Mouse prototype of mighty mouse shows up and saves his life

when I was eight it was the business

Wolfgang
04-02-2013, 02:52 PM
AV you BETTER NOT be joking about this

Also seconding Justice League Unblimited as best DC Universe, everything about it is the best that franchise has to offer. The only downside is, discounting cranial trauma or drug abuse, you can only watch all of it for the first time once.

e: oh my goodness (http://clzimages.com/comic/large/16/16_71965_0_.jpg), it's even a regular Marvel comic rather than Star imprint

Ample Vigour
04-02-2013, 02:58 PM
AV you BETTER NOT be joking about this

cross my heart

there was the harebinger and the anti-minotaur, etc

Alex Scott
04-02-2013, 04:17 PM
AV absolutely is not joking. That's how they did licensed/humor comics back then: by spoofing whatever was going on in comics at the time.

As I recall, Mighty Mouse also spoofed Dark Knight Returns and the then-ongoing Namor series. In a not-comics example, there was also an issue where David Udderman is terrorized by Bluejay Leno.