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Brickroad
10-18-2007, 01:06 PM
I'm betting at least some of youse guys are big fans of George R. R. Martin's high fantasy series "A Song of Ice and Fire." And, of those who aren't yet, I'm betting you soon will be.

Here's a thread for general discussion of the books, where wild speculation about book five can live and breathe freely.

(If you've no idea what I'm going on about, hit your local library or Barnes & Noble and seek out the first book in the series: A Game of Thrones. You will be forever glad you did.)

Falselogic
10-18-2007, 01:19 PM
So sick of waiting for the 5th book. I really didn't like the fourth as it focused on all the characters I could care less about. I want to know what is going on with Snow and the princess in the east! Too bad Martin is working on a child's book right now, grrr!

Brickroad
10-18-2007, 01:29 PM
So sick of waiting for the 5th book. I really didn't like the fourth as it focused on all the characters I could care less about. I want to know what is going on with Snow and the princess in the east! Too bad Martin is working on a child's book right now, grrr!

I never really cared much for Dany's story because it was so detached from everything else in the books. Last time I re-read the books (shortly after finishing Feast) I skipped all her chapters, then went back and read them all at once. It makes a lot of what goes on with her easier to understand.

I love Brienne and Jaime and the Ironmen, so Feast was really easy for me to enjoy. Also, I never get sick of watching Cersei dig herself deeper and deeper into her enormous hole.

VsRobot
10-18-2007, 01:59 PM
I'm waiting for book five before reading book four. I want to read them as a single entity.

I love the first three books as much as a man can love a book and not be arresterated.

Eusis
10-18-2007, 02:15 PM
I've had a Game of Thrones for years and while I've started and liked what I read, I just haven't been compelled to go through more. I'll probably pick it up again now and see if I can read it alongside Litany of the Long Sun.

Evil Dead Junkie
10-18-2007, 02:27 PM
I've only read Game Of Thrones, I loved it, but a mixture of time constraints and the fact that I've only read two fantasy series that didn't completely shit the bed at the end of the run (Harry Potter, and Dark Tower and one of those is debatable) and thus negate all my investment, have kept me away.

Paul le Fou
10-18-2007, 03:19 PM
I can't wait to find out the rest of what happens. I agree that Book 4 was a little disappointing, but it was still good - I just need him to finish the damn series before he kicks it, Jordan-style.

All the speculation is killing me, and though The Internet has figured out one of the key story points (which is totally awesome to trace the development of), there's still a ton that's up in the air, and it's still really exciting to see what comes next.

shivam
10-18-2007, 03:35 PM
i love this series, but i can't bring myself to reread it. book 1. man.

Cyrael
10-18-2007, 03:45 PM
I'm about 30 pages out from finishing A Game of Thrones. I've enjoyed it quite a bit, and am excited to keep reading the series.

Thats all I really have to say I guess. I picked it up after a few recommendations on the forums.

tungwene
10-18-2007, 05:06 PM
I have to reread the whole entire series every single time a new book comes out. I can't remember who the hell anyone is otherwise especially when all the main characters keep dying/coming back to life or whatever and he keeps having to pull out secondary characters for POVs. I love the series though despite that.

Merus
10-18-2007, 05:14 PM
I couldn't stand book 1, but I like Ian Irvine who's just as ruthless with his characters, so I don't know. I'll get out of your thread, though.

Paul le Fou
10-18-2007, 05:58 PM
I have to reread the whole entire series every single time a new book comes out. I can't remember who the hell anyone is otherwise especially when all the main characters keep dying/coming back to life or whatever and he keeps having to pull out secondary characters for POVs. I love the series though despite that.

To be fair, only a very few actually come back to life. Everyone else stays down.

Gredlen
10-18-2007, 06:41 PM
I've been meaning to reread the series for a while now, but I haven't had much time. I'll get around to it eventually.

Sheana
10-18-2007, 10:14 PM
I'm a third of the way into the third book, A Storm Of Swords. Martin's "this is totally medieval so I'm gonna go on about graphic sex and violence as much as possible hee hee" gets a little old sometimes, but it's a very engaging series and I'm enjoying it. I take little breaks here and there (I'm in the midst of one now), but I'm continuing with it.

I'm a little annoyed 'cos I was positive I got the fourth book for last Christmas as well, but I can't find it anywhere. Hope I don't have to rebuy it, bah.

Also, as Halloween's coming on, here's a fun little game to play:

1. Read the Ice And Fire Series
2. Enjoy the Ice And Fire Series
3. Look up George R.R. Martin on Wikipedia out of curiousity
4. See a photo of George R.R. Martin
5. Scream

Calorie Mate
10-18-2007, 11:39 PM
Two summers ago, I read Books 1 and 2, and half of Book 3. I'm done.

dwolfe
10-19-2007, 05:30 AM
I'm waiting for book five before reading book four. I want to read them as a single entity.

I love the first three books as much as a man can love a book and not be arresterated.

I don't think there's any laws against person-book love. Is there? Might depend on the country. If there is, just hide the series in a weighted companion cube or something.

tungwene
10-19-2007, 07:10 AM
Two summers ago, I read Books 1 and 2, and half of Book 3. I'm done.Heh, I think most people who drop the series either drop it after the first book or halfway through the third for very understandable reasons.

Brickroad
10-19-2007, 07:12 AM
I can't wait to find out the rest of what happens. I agree that Book 4 was a little disappointing, but it was still good - I just need him to finish the damn series before he kicks it, Jordan-style.

Yes, this is pretty much the most horrible thing that could happen.

All the speculation is killing me, and though The Internet has figured out one of the key story points (which is totally awesome to trace the development of), there's still a ton that's up in the air, and it's still really exciting to see what comes next.

I try not to climb on the wild speculation bandwagon if I can help it, but sometimes it's irresistible. My pet theory right now is that Littlefinger is going to develop super-powers and take over the world. Not sure how that will pan out.

Crazy Larry
10-19-2007, 09:25 AM
I try not to climb on the wild speculation bandwagon if I can help it, but sometimes it's irresistible. My pet theory right now is that Littlefinger is going to develop super-powers and take over the world. Not sure how that will pan out.

I think his brain counts as a superpower already. Especially if you're one of those kooks who thinks a fourteen year old Littlefinger manipulated events to cause Robert's rebellion.

AFFC was really only disappointing in that it's basically just a setup for future books (and only half a book like that.) After the third book the series had to slow down. If it had kept up the pace of climactic events it would have passed into the surreal, with each big event being invalidated a chapter later by an even bigger event (not to mention everyone dying.)

Brickroad
10-19-2007, 10:13 AM
I think his brain counts as a superpower already. Especially if you're one of those kooks who thinks a fourteen year old Littlefinger manipulated events to cause Robert's rebellion.

AFFC was really only disappointing in that it's basically just a setup for future books (and only half a book like that.) After the third book the series had to slow down. If it had kept up the pace of climactic events it would have passed into the surreal, with each big event being invalidated a chapter later by an even bigger event (not to mention everyone dying.)

I think the theme of the story as a whole was that the Starks had it right: Winter is Coming. Well, now Winter is Here and instead of preparing for what might be decades of frost and famine, they went and had a big ole' war instead.

The Big Events are fun when they happen (especially things like Bran's fall, the Red Wedding, and the hatching of Dany's dragons), but what really draws me are the more subtle machinations that go on behind the scenes, as it were. So I definitely don't see "slowing down" as a problem in the least.

Have people actually theorized that Littlefinger orchestrated Robert's Rebellion? How would that even have worked? I guess this is a world where 14-year-olds can wield a great deal of power, but that sounds like a fantastic stretch of fanboyism.

Paul le Fou
10-19-2007, 11:42 AM
I've always thought it's pretty obvious we're looking at Jon's story. Ever since the first book you've always had the idea that Jon was sort of the "blessed" character. I dunno if it was his design (wearing all black), his wolf (the albino one), his name (Jon Snow - I mean come on, that's pretty badass), or what. But once you figure out his mother's identity (there are tons and tons of clues sprinkled throughout the books, and it's almost sort of obvious when you figure it out - also, awesome), you know he's gonna be the last man standing - or at least not die until the very end, hero-style.

Same for Dany. I'm pretty convinced she can't die. Since her story is so far separated from the others, it's not just the story of another person in the kingdoms where, if they kick it, someone else can step in and continue the story. To focus on someone so isolated generally indicates that she's going to be pretty important to the whole story. So when she and her dragons ride back into Westeros, save the country from the invasion of the Others in the North, and takes her rightful place as Queen, picking up the country from the ashes of its own civil wars, I won't really be surprised - but it'll still be awesome.


ALSO, I keep up on GRRM's Blog feed on my livejournal. It is SO infuriating to see him go months without mentioning Dance with Dragons, instead talking about the damned miniatures being made, or the swords (there's a merchandising deal with a specialty blacksmith making models of swords from the book), or usually just going on about football. WE'RE GETTING REALLY IMPATIENT YOU FAT BASTARD, AND YOU'RE NOT GETTING YOUNGER. D:

Jeanie
10-19-2007, 01:52 PM
Ok now I'm going to feel dumb for not knowing who Jon's mother is. Anyone want to PM me?

Paul le Fou
10-19-2007, 03:58 PM
Don't feel dumb, it's a pretty well-kept secret in the book. I wouldn't have put it together myself without looking it up on fansites. However, the evidence is there in the book if you look closely enough - or rather, it's very forwardly presented, if you know what to look for.

I'll drop a few of the more roundabout clues here. But be warned, we're entering massive spoiler territory.

Clue 1: Examine the events surrounding Ned's bringing Jon back home to Winterfall. When did it happen? What else was going on during that time? Look at the timeframe for the whole war, look at the people presented as possible parent and where/when they were. Examine Ned's flashbacks. What are his most painful, most secret memories?

Clue 2: Take into consideration the appearance of the members of the Stark family - who they take after, for example. Whom does Jon resemble within his immediate family? Extended? Is he said to resemble anyone who is himself/herself said to resemble anyone else?

Now we're getting into the really intense stuff. Last warning.

Clue 3: You usually can't guess the identity of Jon's mother very easily because you're assuming you already know the identity of Jon's father. Do not assume this. Examine Ned Stark's virtue - so unbendingly upright, he brought about his own death by it. He doesn't seem like one to father a bastard. Nor does he like to lie. Again, what are Ned's closest secrets, and what brings him pain?

Clue 4: Examine the story that Meera, the daughter of Howland Reed (himself an important figure in this background - not one of Jon's parents, though) tell to Bran as they run from Winterfall. Try to identify the people therein. None of them are new characters - they're all people well-known in the history of the book. Their names, along the lines of "The Great Lion of the Rock," "The ___ Wolf," and the "Storm Lord" strongly indicate their identities through symbols we already associate them with. Which knight won the contest, and whom did he crown Queen of Love and Beauty? Remember that the story takes place shortly before the beginning of Robert's Rebellion. Also, Ned never told the story to anyone, which Jojen finds odd. Why wouldn't he? For reference, the story is in Book 3, around page 280.

Speculate! I don't want to spill the whole can of beans just yet. Assuming you haven't looked it up yourselves, anyway.

Jeanie
10-19-2007, 04:24 PM
OH!!

I just looked at wikipedia for hints. I think I figured it out. Clue 3 was what gave it away to me, but clue 2 was also a catalyst.

Paul le Fou
10-19-2007, 04:32 PM
Now you've just got to figure out who his father is. :D

Alex Scott
10-19-2007, 04:49 PM
Holy crap. I just checked the story (actually begins around 338 in the mass-market paperback) and Wikipedia, and I think I know the mother. (and the father) Which font color should I use for spoilers?

Jeanie
10-19-2007, 04:53 PM
Try white. Yeah, once you figure it out, it kinda blows your mind for a bit, doesn't it?

Alex Scott
10-19-2007, 04:56 PM
Okay, let's give this a try. Is it Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark?

Paul le Fou
10-19-2007, 05:12 PM
So here goes. Spoilers for what I reckon we won't find out until the very last book in the series - that's three away, and maybe a decade at this rate. Be warned.

Jon Snow is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Clue 1: Ned brought Jon back after Robert's Rebellion, a war which lasted one year. This already makes it unlikely that he fathered a bastard, because the timeframe would be very tight, although it doesn't rule it out.

During the war, Lyanna Stark is kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen. This is what drives Robert to fight, for a large part: He loved Lyanna, as was stated, but it never says she loved him back. Rhaegar was, by all accounts of those who knew him, a kind, gentle, brave, just man, who was also a good soldier because he was good at everything. Pretty much, a great guy all-around. Meera's Story reveals that he gave the crown at the tournament to Lyanna Stark. So her kidnapping was probably more like an elopement.

(Another note within that story is that Lyanna was likely the Knight of the Laughing Tree - it was said that Rhaegar (the dragon prince) was ordered to find her, but never revealed her identity. This may have led to an encounter which had him crown her.)

Lyanna dies at the Tower of Joy in a "bed of blood," which can very easily be read as childbirth. Ned promises her to "take her back to Winterfell." However, whenever he mentions his promise to her, you'll note he goes a little quiet. Similarly for when anyone inquires as to Jon's parentage. His real promise was to claim Jon as his own bastard and not reveal his parentage.

Why? To Protect him. Robert was and remained until his death insane with rage at the Targaryens, especially Rhaegar - because he "stole" his loved one away. He ordered even the youngest Targaryen children murdered during his sack of the capitol. The chance that he would have killed Rhaegar's son, had he known, was too great. No one can know, for Jon's own sake, that he is a Targaryen. So Ned, against all his moral imperatives, lied to everyone to protect Jon. Even Catelyn, to whom lying hurt him the most - the only time he ever gets really angry is when she tries to press him about it.

Howland Reed is the only other person alive who knows this. He was the only other survivor of the Tower of Joy. It's no coincidence that his children tell us the most telling story, and that he hasn't appeared in the story yet.

Jon is said to resemble Arya, who is said to resemble Lyanna Stark.

Other evidence: Lyanna was represented by Blue flowers as is mentioned. In a dream, Dany has a vision of a blue flower growing from the Wall. Lyanna is dead, but her son is still alive and could be represented by her flower - and indeed, Jon is at the wall.

Also: When Ned is in prison, before his death, he thinks about his children - and names them all to himself. However, he doesn't name Jon. He then separately mentions wanting to talk to Jon about something he "never got to tell him" or some such.

The list goes on.

This, of course, opens a world of possibilities for the future of the story.

Jon, as you can sort of tell from the start, is one of the "main characters" of the story. Jon, as the son of Rhaegar, is also the rightful heir to the throne of Westeros. Those two are pretty suggestive of each other.

The rest of it centers on Dany coming back to Westeros, the circumstances surrounding that, and who shall aid her in her return to power.

Issun
10-19-2007, 05:58 PM
It is SO infuriating to see him go months without mentioning Dance with Dragons, instead talking about the damned miniatures being made, or the swords (there's a merchandising deal with a specialty blacksmith making models of swords from the book), or usually just going on about football. WE'RE GETTING REALLY IMPATIENT YOU FAT BASTARD, AND YOU'RE NOT GETTING YOUNGER. D:

That makes me quite pissed. Here, I assumed he was concentrating on making the story better, and I find out he's mostly diinking around. Protip: If you can't focus on finishing a series you've started, DON"T EVEN FUCKING START IT! If you're collecting money and emotional investment from your fans, don't dilly-dally like a goddamned asshole! This is his job. If I decide I just don't want to go to work for two years, I get fired. Just because Martin is an artist doesn't mean he gets to jerk his paycheck (us) around. There are other things in life, and if I find out he's goofing off when he should be working, I may just not give him any more of my money. I'd rather not find out the end of the story than be shat on.

Anyhoo, on a more positive note, I liked AFFC because it had a lot of one of my favorite characers, Arya, and my two other faves, Tyrion and Dany will be in book five (if it ever gets finished).

shivam
10-19-2007, 06:03 PM
his publishers got hella pissed at him for how long it took him to get book 4 out, and there was a lawsuit involved. Martin's sure taking his time with these.

Sarcasmorator
10-19-2007, 07:05 PM
"A Feast for Crows" came out two years ago. Yes, that was five years after the previous book, but there were almost three years in between the third book and the second. We're not even there yet.

Paul le Fou
10-19-2007, 07:22 PM
I just wish I hadn't gotten so hooked while it was still in progress. Let me look back on it and read them all at once! Although it is a lot of fun to speculate, too.

Also, the other books took a long time to release, but DwD was originally part of the same book as FfC... so he had a definite headstart on it. And it's not that he doesn't work on it, I'm sure he does, but what's he going to blog about - "I edited another chapter today. It is now better than it was before." He is busy with other projects, including writing ones (not just merchandising). Although I wish he'd get like a manager or let his agent handle some of that stuff, even if it is for authenticity's sake or something. I also just wish someone would lock him in a damn closet and not let him out until it's done.

tungwene
10-19-2007, 09:34 PM
I found out the truth about Jon when a friend who has never read the books but whose brother has blurted it out to me not knowing the significance of it. I was pretty annoyed with her afterwards.

Brickroad
10-19-2007, 09:48 PM
I just wish I hadn't gotten so hooked while it was still in progress. Let me look back on it and read them all at once! Although it is a lot of fun to speculate, too.

Also, the other books took a long time to release, but DwD was originally part of the same book as FfC... so he had a definite headstart on it. And it's not that he doesn't work on it, I'm sure he does, but what's he going to blog about - "I edited another chapter today. It is now better than it was before." He is busy with other projects, including writing ones (not just merchandising). Although I wish he'd get like a manager or let his agent handle some of that stuff, even if it is for authenticity's sake or something. I also just wish someone would lock him in a damn closet and not let him out until it's done.

I keep up with his blog on LiveJournal too, and before the decision to split Feast, this is exactly what his posts would be like. "Worked on a Jon chapter. Had to rewrite it." They weren't very interesting. =)

From what I understand, he has hired an assistant for the first time in his career to handle day-to-day stuff, and has canceled some of his most long-standing conventions and whatnot. So maybe he really has learned his lesson from Feast!

That said, he's once said that the only thing people remember when a book is finished, is the quality of the book. Not the time it took to write. We all bitched and moaned a decade ago when Ocarina of Time was delayed and delayed, but now that it's released we only talk about how great it is. I think that's how ASOIAF will be when it's all said and done and the last book is published in 2021.

shivam
10-19-2007, 09:55 PM
the problem is jordan. with his death, martin now has the bullseye on him.

Falselogic
10-21-2007, 09:04 PM
the problem is jordan. with his death, martin now has the bullseye on him.

How so is there some epic fantasy writer curse I'm unaware of? There are lots of old guys in the game, they all seem to be doing fine. Jordan was the victim of a terrible disease that wasn't caught in time and difficult to treat.

Though I'm sorry he is dead, I'm not sorry there won't be anymore Wheel of Time books. I couldn't ever read more than one. You can only go questing for so many macguffins before...

Calorie Mate
10-22-2007, 01:49 PM
I read all the spoilers in this thread. It kind of sort of made me want to be interested in these books again, but I just don't have it in me. I'm not too big into fantasy novels, and though I liked some of the characters and the setup, there's simply too much there for me.

However, I'll probably read the Wikipedia summary whenever a new book comes out. I invested too much time already to not one day find out how it all ends.

tungwene
10-22-2007, 03:39 PM
I read all the spoilers in this thread. It kind of sort of made me want to be interested in these books again, but I just don't have it in me. I'm not too big into fantasy novels, and though I liked some of the characters and the setup, there's simply too much there for me.I forget the direct quote but I remember GRRM saying something along the lines that nothing makes a more fascinating story than real world history, all the people involved and complicated threads that result in the great turning points of history, but the problem is because it is history everyone knows who dies, who wins, how it all ends which takes all the suspense out of the story. So what he's done is try to write a historical novel in a fantasy world so no one can know the outcome and keeping the suspense alive. So that's something I try to keep in mind when I read them. If this were an actual history I would try to remember all the different threads because understanding why some historical event took place I would need to the whole picture or possibly regurgitate the information on a test so I try to treat the series with that same kind of seriousness.

Falselogic
10-22-2007, 04:27 PM
of made me want to be interested in these books again, but I just don't have it in me. I'm not too big into fantasy novels...


One of the things I like about the series is that there isn't much magic or high fantasy there. There are dragons but not everywhere, there are some mysterious things and the red witch and such. But Martin leaves it all vague and open. She might have magic or she might not, you're left asking questions... The undead is sort of a definite magic thingy. But unlike Eddings, Jordan, Feist, Brooks, and every other fantay writer, Martin doesnt soak his story in magic and the fantastical. Much more of it is intrigue and politicking.

Paul le Fou
10-22-2007, 06:09 PM
One of the things I like about the series is that there isn't much magic or high fantasy there. There are dragons but not everywhere, there are some mysterious things and the red witch and such. But Martin leaves it all vague and open. She might have magic or she might not, you're left asking questions... The undead is sort of a definite magic thingy. But unlike Eddings, Jordan, Feist, Brooks, and every other fantay writer, Martin doesnt soak his story in magic and the fantastical. Much more of it is intrigue and politicking.

Exactly the reason I've enjoyed it to this point. It's worth noting that the high fantasy stuff is going to start coming out more and more towards the end of the series - Dany and her dragons coming into the limelight more than ever, the battle against the Others on the horizon, and so forth. All those prophecies are going to start coming around too, Azor Az'hai and so on. And Martin has mentioned that the reason the seasons are so long is magical in nature. It should be interesting to see what happens as the series takes a turn for higher fantasy.

Even then, I don't think he'll let it get out of hand. He said that before Ice and Fire he wasn't too big on fantasy in general, at least writing it, and that he wanted to do something beyond swords and sorcery, wizards and so on. And judging by the first four books, the tone he aimed for has been dead on, so I'm not particularly worried.

Brickroad
10-23-2007, 10:39 AM
Even then, I don't think he'll let it get out of hand. He said that before Ice and Fire he wasn't too big on fantasy in general, at least writing it, and that he wanted to do something beyond swords and sorcery, wizards and so on. And judging by the first four books, the tone he aimed for has been dead on, so I'm not particularly worried.

Nail on the head, here. The political intrigue is what keeps the story very much alive for me, which is why I didn't care much for the early Dany chapters or the later Bran chapters. (I did appreciate them when I re-read them with context, though.) I keep expecting rational explanations for some events which, as of yet, have been magical in nature; I have to remind myself while reading that, while slight, magic does exist in this world.

Which chapters do you guys like most, and why?

Everyone's favorite characters are Tyrion, Jon and Arya, of course. In addition, I loved all the Greyjoy and Dorne chapters in Feast, and since about the end of Storm have really loved Sansa's chapters since that's where we get most of the Littlefinger.

Crazy Larry
10-23-2007, 11:13 AM
Tyrion and Jaime are my favorite chapters. I don't get the love for Jon and Arya. Well, Arya I can see, although she doesn't appeal to me. Jon is just too uninteresting though. So far he's been pretty damn close to the stereotypical perfect fantasy hero. He does seem to be becoming more interesting now though.

Paul le Fou
10-23-2007, 12:09 PM
I've liked Jon so far. While it was apparent from the start that he was the charmed character, the eventual Hero, his character was still pretty interesting. I feel like he'll get more Heroic and less interesting as time goes on (it's already started), but he should still be fun to watch.

Arya's all right, but I'm still waiting for her return and her reunion with Nymeria. She, like Jon, has always been a little too charmed within the story, which makes me pretty sure she'll be one of the final Heroes in some sense or other. But the way we left her in the most recent book, I admit, has me clawing at my hair for the next installment.

Tyrion is, of course, one of the strongest characters, and another likely character for late-term Hero status. I do really like Jaime too - his character arc starting from his narrative chapters makes him really intriguing to me, probably because of the shift from total despicable villain to honorable but flawed protector. And while I really despise

Dany's tribulations are pretty interesting to me, and I've had fun watching her grow into herself and evolve as a leader, and I suspect this will actually get better with time. The book 5 teaser from FfC introduced a really interesting twist on her situation.

I sort of hate Sansa, but her chapters are fun because we get to watch Littlefinger at work, and he's a real piece of work. Same for Bran - I don't particularly like him as a character, but his story and chapters are pretty interesting. Coldhands! Hey, my hands are cold right now too.
D:

Now I have no idea whether or not this will happen, but I'm looking forward to seeing chapters from Sandor Clegane. I'm pretty sure he's not dead, and with big brother Gregor still around as a massive zombie/frankenstein/whatnot homunculus or something, and major beef to settle between the two, I think we can expect to see him back in the story at some point soon.

Brickroad
10-23-2007, 01:24 PM
Re: Paul's spoilery thing. There are a few passages in Feast which point to that exact conclusion, and I've been wondering if we'll get those chapters too. I hope so, because he's a very intriguing character.

I disliked Sansa intensely through the first 2.5 books, but partway through Strorm (starting with her conversation with the old Tyrell biddy) I started to get the inkling that she was going to grow into a power player with enough time. Given how quickly she catches on to Littlefinger's machinations, I'd say that's exactly the path she's on.

I go back and forth in my head on whether or not certain characters have plot immunity. I'm betting at least one of these so-called "charmed" characters is being groomed for an early death in the final book, if for no reason than to tell the readers "From this point on, all bets are off."

Crazy Larry
10-23-2007, 01:34 PM
I've liked Jon so far. While it was apparent from the start that he was the charmed character, the eventual Hero, his character was still pretty interesting. I feel like he'll get more Heroic and less interesting as time goes on (it's already started), but he should still be fun to watch.I guess I see what you mean with saying that he's getting more heroic, but to me he's doing tohat by becoming more interesting. He basically started as the naive, farmboy destined hero, and he's slowly been introduced to the real world and become a real character, so to speak.
See particularly the little bit of him we saw in AFFC. As the other members of the watch said, he's not Jon Snow any longer, he's Lord Snow.

I do really like Jaime too - his character arc starting from his narrative chapters makes him really intriguing to me, probably because of the shift from total despicable villain to honorable but flawed protector.Yeah, the shift in character is one of the most appealing things to me. Especially how a lot of it seems to have been engineered not so much by actual character development, but just by what parts of the story we get to see, and more especially who we see them through.

Dany's tribulations are pretty interesting to me, and I've had fun watching her grow into herself and evolve as a leader, and I suspect this will actually get better with time. The book 5 teaser from FfC introduced a really interesting twist on her situation.I've never been very interested in Dany's chapters. I think part of the problem with Dany's chapters are the fact that they occur in isolation from the rest of the story. You've got all these complex story threads mixing together in Westeros, and then Dany's off by herself not interacting with anyone else.

Crazy Larry
10-23-2007, 01:38 PM
Re: Paul's spoilery thing. There are a few passages in Feast which point to that exact conclusion, and I've been wondering if we'll get those chapters too. I hope so, because he's a very intriguing character.To follow up on that there's also Dany's vision in the warlock's temple about two men, one of them one-handed, fighting an undead giant in the snowy ruins of a castle.

I go back and forth in my head on whether or not certain characters have plot immunity. I'm betting at least one of these so-called "charmed" characters is being groomed for an early death in the final book, if for no reason than to tell the readers "From this point on, all bets are off."We've already had at least two "all bets are off" moments, so I'd say there's a certainty that some of the charmed characters, if not all of them, will be offed.

Paul le Fou
10-23-2007, 07:22 PM
To follow up on that there's also Dany's vision in the warlock's temple about two men, one of them one-handed, fighting an undead giant in the snowy ruins of a castle.

Oh shit, I forgot about that. I really wish I hadn't lent my GoT to my uncle because I'm feeling a re-read of the series coming on. I've done all the snooping around since then so I should be able to catch a lot more of the hints and clues the next time around.

As for the death of charmed characters - I think there's a difference between dying last minute (heroically? probably) and getting offed halfway through book 3, for instance. A few of the charmed characters may indeed eat it when all is said and done, but I think for the most part they're definitely safe until book 7, or at least until they've completed some dramatic arc. e.g. Sandor won't die until he's beaten Gregor but probably will after that. Jon won't die until the VERY end, perhaps in the final final battle against the Others, and he's got a lot to do with the later story anyway, being the heir to the throne and all. Bran may die but not before he reveals something major about the Others and the lands beyond the wall, and even then, my money's on his living. Tyrion will probably live, Jaime will probably die (heroically, redeeming himself). Brienne, I don't think she's actually dead yet, but she could certainly kick it if she hasn't already. Dany is the only character that I'd say I'm really positive will survive the whole series, but most of those listed above will probably make it through. But who knows? I certainly didn't expect even half of the shit that's gone down so far, though in retrospect it all makes sense, because the scope of the story extends far beyond what any of the characters have encountered yet. As the main storyline starts to come together, and the future gets projected a little more, we can predict who will last for at least a while. I don't think Martin kills off his characters just to shock us, for the most part, but as vital parts of what happens to be an exceptionally bloody story.

Brickroad
10-23-2007, 07:44 PM
I don't think Martin kills off his characters just to shock us, for the most part, but as vital parts of what happens to be an exceptionally bloody story.

Most definitely. I think that, if he gets to a part of the story where Jon would logically die, even if it's only book five or whatever, he will go ahead and do it no matter how difficult it is.

Martin has already mentioned that the Red Wedding was the most difficult thing he's ever written. It certainly blindsided me.

tungwene
10-24-2007, 08:25 AM
My favorite chapters are Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos, and Jaime. Arya I am worried about because she's becoming increasingly unhinged. I think by the end of the book either Jon or Dany will die but not both. If one of them dies I think the other will survive. I think the biggest threat right now to Jon is Melisandre if his true heritage is revealed.

Brickroad
10-24-2007, 08:31 AM
spoilers spoiler

I don't know about that. I think maybe (spoiler)Stannis himself would pose a pretty big threat. Stannis never saw himself as a "contender for the throne" against Renly and Joff, but rather the rightful king. He's very adamant about it. His current plan is "save the kingdom to win the throne," which is kind of what Jon is doing without even knowing it.(/spoiler)

tungwene
10-24-2007, 08:43 AM
I don't know about that. I think maybe (spoiler)Stannis himself would pose a pretty big threat. Stannis never saw himself as a "contender for the throne" against Renly and Joff, but rather the rightful king. He's very adamant about it. His current plan is "save the kingdom to win the throne," which is kind of what Jon is doing without even knowing it.(/spoiler)I see that as a reason why Stannis is less of a threat than Melisandre. If Stannis sees himself as the rightful king he won't kill someone just because they have a better claim. He took out Renly (and possibly Rob, Joffrey, and Balon Greyjoy) because they were people who had no right to the throne. So long as Jon doesn't do anything "wrong" in Stannis' eye he won't see any reason to remove him. He also may not think he has a right to the throne because he's a bastard. Melisandre on the other hand does care because only the blood matters. However Stannis will do whatever Melisandre tells him to so he's still a threat that way. But if Melisandre's out of the picture the threat from Stannis is gone.

Falselogic
10-24-2007, 03:31 PM
Wow, I've read all the books so far and had made some predictions and what not on what was going to happen. But it's becoming clear to me now as I read the spoilers in this thread that I missed a whole lot of what was going on.

I guess I need to re-read and start to take notes. Guess it's good that it's taking GRRM a long time to right because it'll take me quite awhile to re-read all of them again.

SlimJimm
10-24-2007, 04:17 PM
Its been such a long time since Ive read these books, but all the talk makes me want to read them all again!

Anyways a small question, who was the once-nobleman who was killing Lannisters with the near dead Catelyn Stark after the Red Wedding? And what happend to him? Ive forgotten, but I liked what they were doing.

Paul le Fou
10-24-2007, 05:01 PM
Its been such a long time since Ive read these books, but all the talk makes me want to read them all again!

Anyways a small question, etc. etc.

I think you're talking about Beric Dondarrion. He was the one who got killed over and over, and Thoros of Myr, the red priest (who fought with a flaming sword) kept bringing him back to life through the R'hllor burial ceremony. Their Brotherhood had been sent out to capture Gregor Clegane earlier, but were ambushed and killed. While performing the common burial procedure of his religion, Thoros inadvertently resurrected Beric, who swore to keep his duty to the king and bring Clegane to justice and formed the Brotherhood without Banners. Even after Robert died, they remained faithful as a band of outlaws, ambushing Clegane and other Lannister bannermen at any chance. When they found Catelyn's corpse washed up at the riverbank with all the other victims of the Red Wedding, Thoros wouldn't perform the ceremony on her so Beric did it himself. Catelyn was brought back from the dead, but Beric died (for good) then and there.

SlimJimm
10-25-2007, 03:45 PM
That refreshes my memory on the whole thing.
What a great part of the series.

Brickroad
10-29-2007, 12:20 PM
Beric Dondarrion is a great example of another of Martin's strengths: he has created a world in which to set his stories. As opposed to, say, Harry Potter where certain characters or events are made up as they become convenient to the plot.

Beric is an example because he shows up at the Tourney of the Hand. Someone asks if he's aims to compete, and he says (paraphrasing) "No, I aim to win." Then he exits, stage left. When he re-emerges in the story later on, he's not a new character. He's always been there. You catch BARRELS of this stuff on your second or third pass through the books.

I think another good example is the attempt on Bran's life. There are long plot threads woven around who the assassin was, where the knife came from, who ordered it, etc. Before anyone finds the answers, though, the characters involved get wrapped up in other things. When the true culprit is finally revealed, it's barely even relevant anymore. The world has moved on. It's just some minor thing that happened.

I'm hoping to catch lots of things like this as I go through again.

Paul le Fou
10-29-2007, 01:14 PM
Beric Dondarrion is a great example of another of Martin's strengths: he has created a world in which to set his stories. As opposed to, say, Harry Potter where certain characters or events are made up as they become convenient to the plot.

Beric is an example because he shows up at the Tourney of the Hand. Someone asks if he's aims to compete, and he says (paraphrasing) "No, I aim to win." Then he exits, stage left. When he re-emerges in the story later on, he's not a new character. He's always been there. You catch BARRELS of this stuff on your second or third pass through the books.

I think another good example is the attempt on Bran's life. There are long plot threads woven around who the assassin was, where the knife came from, who ordered it, etc. Before anyone finds the answers, though, the characters involved get wrapped up in other things. When the true culprit is finally revealed, it's barely even relevant anymore. The world has moved on. It's just some minor thing that happened.

I'm hoping to catch lots of things like this as I go through again.


Yeah, the thing with IaF is that the world is so populated you sometimes have trouble keeping up. Like with the spoilers in the earlier part of the thread - all the clues are there, some of them are actually pretty damn obvious when you stop and examine them, but there's so much going on you tend to not pick up on some of the littler points until someone points it out or you take the time to give it a really careful reading (which, it's also so long, that tends to be a daunting task).

Right there in the very first book, you have people meeting in secret passages underneat the castle, discussing a long-brewing plan to bring Daenerys back to Westeros and have her reclaim the throne. But it's such an isolated incident, you forget about it as you get caught up in the whirlwind of everything else that's happening. When it comes about as part of the actual plot later, we'll look back and say OH YEAH, they did mention something about that.

I also like Beric's treatment. He's sort of a cocky bastard when you first meet him, and then there's nothing but hearsay for like a book and a half - you always hear about him, hear reports of his being killed or defeated or whatnot, but the legend comes back. By the time you finally meet him, you've got all this legend to work through to arrive at the truth. The way his character changed wasn't necessarily to fit the needs of the story, everything seems very organic the way it happens. There are a few points that seem more contrived than others, of course, but most of the major plot elements flow very naturally together.

It's all evidence as to how brilliantly Martin can weave a story. Tolkein may have more history, more details, more languages - more mass to his world - but as far as putting together a complex narrative and making it all work (not to mention being, you know, readable), not to mention keeping a very deep, relevant, interesting history - I think Martin exceeds him by a large margin.

Merus
10-29-2007, 06:46 PM
This is not really the place for it, but I think that Rowling's no amateur when it comes to misdirection. I'll be interested to see what she does with crime as it probably suits her strengths better - her worldbuilding's a bit flat but man can she write a good mystery.

Brickroad
10-18-2009, 08:08 AM
Wow, this thread is two years old. And even brand new it had already been two years since Martin promised us the next book. Maybe when it gets bumped again in 2011 someone will finally be publishing it?

I'm filling the long nights at work with a good ol' Ice'n'Fire re-read. It's amazing all the thousands of little details that I'd forgotten. Halfway through Clash of Kings now, and I'd managed to completely forget awesome things like Greatjon Umber, Shagga son of Dolf shaving Grand Maester Pycelle and the ghost in Harrenhal. Who knows what wonderful things lay ahead to re-discover in Storm and Feast?

I find myself wanting a giant wall-sized map of Westeros that I can use to track all the characters using pins and bits of string. And isn't it about time we got us a decent map of the Free Cities and the Dothraki Sea? Maybe in 2011...

Adrenaline
10-18-2009, 09:20 AM
Hey, and old-ass thread for the series. I'm 100 pages into aSoS and still totally into it.

Bongo Bill
10-18-2009, 12:09 PM
Which one is the second book? I finished that one, but haven't yet gotten the third or subsequents. This is good books.

Azar
10-18-2009, 12:13 PM
Which one is the second book? I finished that one, but haven't yet gotten the third or subsequents. This is good books.
That would be A Clash of Kings.

Bergasa
10-18-2009, 12:29 PM
Did you guys see the cast list for the HBO pilot? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_%28TV_series%29)

Most of them are unknowns, but they really seem to fit the look of the characters I had in my mind.

Adrenaline
10-18-2009, 03:05 PM
Bean and Dinklage as Ned and Tyrion seem spot-on to me. Not sure about Headey as Cersei.

Bergasa
10-18-2009, 03:31 PM
Not sure about Headey as Cersei.

She certainly looks how I pictures Cersei.

Dhroo
10-18-2009, 04:15 PM
And isn't it about time we got us a decent map of the Free Cities and the Dothraki Sea? Maybe in 2011...

For serious. I'm all about maps of fictional worlds, and having gaps in there bugs the hell out of me. The focus of the next book is probably going to shift a bit towards the Free Cities(what with Tyrion in Pentos, more Arya in Bravos, plus Victarion and Quentyn traveling to meet Dany), so we can probably expect a map of that region in Dance.

ringworm
10-18-2009, 05:22 PM
I just read the Ice and Fire books for the first time this summer and already I'm craving a re-read. Talking about them with Adrenaline doesn't help.

Adrenaline
10-19-2009, 08:41 AM
I just read the Ice and Fire books for the first time this summer and already I'm craving a re-read. Talking about them with Adrenaline doesn't help.

It's not my fault that our nerd compasses point in almost exactly the same direction.

Brickroad
10-19-2009, 08:50 AM
I just read the Ice and Fire books for the first time this summer and already I'm craving a re-read. Talking about them with Adrenaline doesn't help.

Imagine how those of us who were starved for years until Feast came along in 2005 -- and have been starving since.

Seriously, some of those cliffhangers Martin left us were just unfair. Half the cast we haven't looked in on since the end of Storm.

As I re-read, I am coming to truly loathe Stannis... which is odd, because my first time through I found myself rooting for him in the War of Five Kings. He is really a stubborn and despicable man, though, and would be as useless a King as Ned Stark was Hand.

Tanto
10-19-2009, 09:15 AM
Did you guys see the cast list for the HBO pilot? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones_%28TV_series%29)

Most of them are unknowns, but they really seem to fit the look of the characters I had in my mind.

It amuses the hell out of me that this will likely be the first western production to suffer an anime-style "oh, crap, we're running out of material" panic attack.

ringworm
10-19-2009, 09:20 AM
It amuses the hell out of me that this will likely be the first western production to suffer an anime-style "oh, crap, we're running out of material" panic attack.
Nah, it's HBO, they're not on the same timeframes as the networks. They can delay seasons two years or more if they have to.

And Storm of Swords, at least, will probably need to be split into two seasons.

Bergasa
10-19-2009, 09:26 AM
And Storm of Swords, at least, will probably need to be split into two seasons.

I'm thinking that each book will likely be more than its own season. HBO seasons are like 10-15 episodes each, aren't they?

Sarcasmorator
10-19-2009, 09:29 AM
I hope some of those cast members are familiar with the series and not expecting to be working for years on the same show.

Bergasa
10-19-2009, 09:46 AM
I hope some of those cast members are familiar with the series and not expecting to be working for years on the same show.

Like Sean Bean.

(Changed because I guess this is a spoiler. Even though he dies like 100 pages into the first book.)

Adrenaline
10-19-2009, 10:04 AM
Hey spoilers.

I think you could fit the essentials of Thrones into 12 hours, and Kings too probably.

ringworm
10-20-2009, 09:34 AM
As I re-read, I am coming to truly loathe Stannis... which is odd, because my first time through I found myself rooting for him in the War of Five Kings. He is really a stubborn and despicable man, though, and would be as useless a King as Ned Stark was Hand.
It's been awhile since I've read it, but I think I recall that even Ned agrees that Stannis would make a poor King, but for Ned, as always, it's about order, not pragmatism. Stannis is petty, stubborn, weak man, but in the way that ASOIAF is great, it doesn't ignore his good qualities. Just by virtue of his fighting Joffrey (who was/would have been a far worse King than Stannis) and by his eventual appearance at the Wall to save the North from the attacks of Mance Rayder is enough to have some sympathy for him.

The idea that Ned Stark was a useless Hand is pretty interesting to me. I got the impression that he was actually a particularly good Hand, performing his duties well and administering justice fairly. It actually seemed to me to be a role he was well suited for despite his protestations.

His problems, of course, was that he didn't have time to properly acclimate himself to the political landscape in King's Landing, and failed to outmaneuver Cersei, which given her entrenchment and deviousness, is not at all surprising. However, it's worth pointing out, that he would have beaten her, if not for his own daughter.

Bergasa
10-20-2009, 02:25 PM
I'm with Ringworm, I think Ned was a good Hand.

Adrenaline
10-20-2009, 04:54 PM
He was bad at the part of being the Hand that Tyrion was good at.

Brickroad
10-21-2009, 12:20 PM
He was bad at the part of being the Hand that Tyrion was good at.

Yeah, this is more or less what I meant. Ned did a fine job filling the job description of Hand of the King, but failed to successfully play the game of thrones.

As for ringworm's spoily bit (about Sansa), I'm not sure how much that really mattered in the end. Remember that first Renly and then Littlefinger gave Ned good counsel about how to preserve the realm while Robert lay dying, and he refused them both. The correct move was something ignoble, so Ned was incapable of making it.

Paul le Fou
10-25-2009, 02:55 AM
Stop it. Stop making me want to re-read these so bad. I... I want to wait until the next book is actually coming out! I... no... resolve is... weakening...

Also, kind of psyched for the HBO series. I feel like that's the perfect format for the story - longform, uncensored, relative freedom and room to work.

Bergasa
10-25-2009, 12:01 PM
Stop it. Stop making me want to re-read these so bad.

I was about to post this! I have no time to re-read them, I have like three English courses this semester!

Adrenaline
10-29-2009, 09:08 PM
So a couple hours ago I read Catelyn's final chapter.

...

hypharse
10-29-2009, 09:19 PM
Big Ice and Fire fan. I was just scouring for any updates on next book yesterday. I did not know about the tv series until this thread. Talking Time is the gift that keeps on giving.

Azar
10-29-2009, 10:25 PM
Following GRRM's LiveJournal (http://grrm.livejournal.com/) is an excellent way to keep abreast of the latest exciting HBO information!

Adrenaline
11-05-2009, 09:57 PM
Just finished A Storm of Swords.

I love this series so much.

(Changed because I guess this is a spoiler. Even though stuff.)

Try 700. It's a major turning point for someone starting the series.

Issun
11-05-2009, 10:16 PM
Following GRRM's LiveJournal (http://grrm.livejournal.com/) is an excellent way to keep abreast of the latest exciting HBO information!

As well as his latest excuse for why we don't have DWD yet. I mean, I know it takes time to write a good story and all, but dammit, Martin. You have us so invested in this, it would be horribly unfair of you to die before you finish this series.

ThornGhost
11-06-2009, 08:49 AM
Following GRRM's LiveJournal (http://grrm.livejournal.com/) is an excellent way to keep abreast of the latest exciting professional football news and convention schedules.

Fixed.

I think maybe this man has some kind of vendetta against fantasy readers in general - he creates these works of such excellence as to probably rival the greatest fantasy writers of all time, and then just stops halfway through and talks about FOOTBALL for God's sake.

The man never fails to trumpet when he actually sits down to try and "hack at that Mereenese knot" or whatever the hell he calls it, so you can be assured that if he hasn't mentioned trying to write, he honestly hasn't tried. Between football season and convention season, he probably has about 8 weeks of uninterrupted time per year to write, and that's only if he feels like it.

The simpering troglodytes that fill up the replies on his inane posts are an equally despicable bunch; always wishing him love and happiness as he jets off to some convention or another where he definitely WON'T be taking a computer to write with, hungrily lapping up the latest Song of Ice and Fire calendars, pewter miniatures and pot holders and just generally being the worst kind of brown nosing fans.

Think I'm bitter? Maybe. I've gotten ONE HALF of a new book in the nearly ten years I have been a fan of this series and I do not expect to see any more any time soon. Hell, Robert Jordan is DEAD and he writes books quicker than George R. R. Fucking Martin.

Here are two better places to get ASoIaF "news" than the official "Not a Blog":

Finish the Book, George (http://grrrm.livejournal.com/)
(At http://grrrm.livejournal.com - one extra "r" added from the official blog)

Something Awful Forums' ASoIaF Thread (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3104213)
(Highly, highly bitter thread about this train wreck of a series and a man. Pretty much the most active thread in the entire literature forum on SA. Conversations center mostly around about how much rape and lemoncakes are the two biggest themes of the series.)

Just, I don't know. Your best bet is not to even try with this series until it's finished in 20 years or the man chokes on a deep dish pizza and a more competent writer takes over the helm.

It's like The Game, the only way to win is not to play.

Bergasa
11-06-2009, 08:56 AM
Try ___. It's a major turning point for someone starting the series.

Was it really that deep in? It's been too long since I've read these.

And I'm sorry if I accidentally spoiled that for anyone. :(

ringworm
11-06-2009, 09:43 AM
Insanity
You are insane.

ThornGhost
11-06-2009, 01:43 PM
You are insane.

No insanity involved. Everything I posted is either a humorously exaggerated opinion or completely true.

Except for the pot-holders. I don't think there's any ASoiaF pot-holders.

Yet.

"When you grab your pots, are they as hot as fire? Do you break into songs of yelling when you burn yourself?
What you need is a pot-holder that will keep your hand as cold as ice!
Try "A Song of Ice and Fire" potholders! Autographed by George R. R. Martin himself and bundled with a complimentary "Wild Cards" book, you'll be back to cooking lemon cakes in no time!"

blinkpen
11-06-2009, 02:22 PM
Much as I love the series I have resigned myself to a point where I don't expect any new books to ever come out, much less see the series come to a conclusion. That way it'll be a pleasant surprise if he publishes anything before he dies.

Sarcasmorator
11-06-2009, 03:43 PM
I'm always taken aback at how much of the bile directed at George R.R. Martin is focused on his weight.

ringworm
11-06-2009, 03:48 PM
The man will finish it when he finishes it. He doesn't fucking owe you anything, least of all speed. You can't rush inspiration or art, and I'd rather he put out a product he was happy with after 20 years, than one he wasn't in 1.

I have plenty of things to occupy my time.

ThornGhost
11-06-2009, 07:13 PM
He doesn't fucking owe you anything, least of all speed.

Exactly, there is no contract between he and I. He is free to take as long as he likes writing his series, and likewise I am free to react in any way I like. Currently, I like to make over-the-top angry posts about it online. It's just my way. If I thought for a moment he was honestly hard at work on it and these delays would really benefit the work - would really allow the man to work through some creative process, then I'd let it be. It's just that I don't believe that, and in fact I'm pretty sure nothing of the sort is going on.

To be certain, I'm really not that angry about it; it's just fun to let it out sometimes.

blinkpen
11-06-2009, 07:35 PM
To be fair, I definitely see things from the "he doesn't owe us anything" side of the matter, but I'm pretty sure ThornGhost is right and that the problem is GRRM is just failing utterly to turn off the fucking football, lock himself in a room, and get to fucking work.

I know this because every time there's a delay in my own creative work, it's because I'm doing the same procrastinatey bullshit.

Adrenaline
11-06-2009, 07:59 PM
It would take a maximum of six hours to watch both his teams and write about them each week. They aren't taking away from his writing time.

Adrenaline
11-25-2009, 05:43 PM
So now I'm stuck with you guys, waiting for book 5.

Damn it! Anyone have something to talk about?

vaterite
11-25-2009, 07:25 PM
So now I'm stuck with you guys, waiting for book 5.

Damn it! Anyone have something to talk about?

I worry that if the show gets picked up on HBO they'll have to replace the actors for the kids every season or so. Not very much time passes from the start of book 1 to the end of book 4/5.

ThornGhost
11-30-2009, 06:54 AM
Daaaaaamn, George. (http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/0007stfc)

Nice.

Adrenaline
11-30-2009, 07:11 AM
I just found out one of my friends is in the middle of Kings right now, which is kind of weird.

Daikaiju
11-30-2009, 08:45 AM
I got about as far as the hunchback Lannister's "trial" in that stone tower before I put down GoT and backed away. Watching Ned all but grow and braid the hemp for his own noose was driving me up a wall. It's well written but maddening.

Karzac
11-30-2009, 09:04 AM
I worry that if the show gets picked up on HBO they'll have to replace the actors for the kids every season or so. Not very much time passes from the start of book 1 to the end of book 4/5.

That's not true. Between books one and four is about two or three years.

dwolfe
11-30-2009, 05:41 PM
Daaaaaamn, George. (http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/0007stfc)

Nice.

If you look carefully, GWWM has a waist in that pic. There's hope the series might end before he dies!

PS: he's a playa!

Adrenaline
03-02-2010, 02:26 PM
So that pilot got picked up today for a full season of ten episodes. Filming starts this summer, I'm guessing a first-half of 2011 premiere.

I think this is fantastic news. Also:

http://scifiwire.com/assets_c/2010/03/Game_of_Thrones_HBO-thumb-550x826-34922.jpg

blinkpen
03-02-2010, 03:14 PM
I got about as far as the hunchback Lannister's "trial" in that stone tower before I put down GoT and backed away. Watching Ned all but grow and braid the hemp for his own noose was driving me up a wall. It's well written but maddening.

Really? I don't get how anyone can possibly think like this. When Ned dies it infuriated me, sure, but it also guaranteed there was no fucking way I could possibly put these books down.

Calorie Mate
03-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Any idea what the break down of the season will be? I mean, are they going to do one season per book, or have they not said?

Sarcasmorator
03-02-2010, 04:39 PM
Guys, this cast (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/game-of-thrones-cast-with-photos-.html) is going to be amazing.

Sheana
03-02-2010, 04:42 PM
Last I heard, it was one season per book, yeah.

I'm excited! I'm halfway through the third book, I really need to pick it up again and finish reading everything.

Bergasa
03-02-2010, 05:14 PM
Can't wait for the show. I am psyched that it got picked up.

Brickroad
03-02-2010, 05:15 PM
I would trade the series away entirely if it meant I could have the fifth book.

Azar
03-02-2010, 06:44 PM
I wouldn't get too caught up on picturing it as a season per book. It's going to be totally awesome seeing A Game of Thrones come alive, but the expense of doing all four currently-released novels would be crazy. Rome only lasted two seasons, after all. Dare we dream of a longer lifespan for A Song of Ice and Fire?

Googleshng
03-02-2010, 07:16 PM
Well, all the pre-production stuff looks surprisingly great, the source material is good, there's plenty of it, and as it goes along, you get increasingly more sex and death, so if the first season is actually successful, I think you're pretty much in the clear for the rest of it.

What I have to wonder is if yon show is going to light a fire under him to finish the books so he doesn't lap himself, or serve as yet another distraction to keep him out of it.

My money's on the former really. He keeps putting out Wildcards books so it's not like he has total writer's block, he just seems to be stuck in the wrong gear.

Adrenaline
03-02-2010, 07:39 PM
Guys, this cast (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/game-of-thrones-cast-with-photos-.html) is going to be amazing.

I am so excited for Dinklage as Tyrion.

I would trade the series away entirely if it meant I could have the fifth book.

Or you could just take both as they come. I bet Dance comes out before the series airs.

I wouldn't get too caught up on picturing it as a season per book. It's going to be totally awesome seeing A Game of Thrones come alive, but the expense of doing all four currently-released novels would be crazy. Rome only lasted two seasons, after all. Dare we dream of a longer lifespan for A Song of Ice and Fire?

Yeah. People already worrying about the series catching up with the books should chill out a bit, we'll cross that bridge if we ever reach it.

ringworm
03-02-2010, 08:15 PM
I would trade the series away entirely if it meant I could have the fifth book.
Well GRRM isn't directly involved in adapting the books, as far as I understand, so one has very little bearing on the other.

Brickroad
03-02-2010, 08:18 PM
Or you could just take both as they come. I bet Dance comes out before the series airs.

Based on what? Past performance?

I used to be in the "be patient and wait" camp until I saw someone crunch the numbers, which revealed Martin writes an average of 74 words per day. Shit, I write more than that on this forum every day. This very post gets me over 3/4 the way there!

Adrenaline
03-02-2010, 08:26 PM
He writes more than that, he just throws out a lot of it. It may just be my naive optimism since I'm new to this waiting-for-Martin thing, but following his blog it does sound like he's getting fairly close.

ringworm
03-02-2010, 08:28 PM
Yeah, he constantly mentions how he throws things away that he's not happy with. I have to believe that that obsession with quality is what makes the books so extraordinary. I've said it before, but I'm happy to wait however long it takes for excellence (in any media format).

tungwene
03-02-2010, 08:29 PM
I used to be in the "be patient and wait" camp until I saw someone crunch the numbers, which revealed Martin writes an average of 74 words per day. Shit, I write more than that on this forum every day. This very post gets me over 3/4 the way there!I would make a comment about monkeys and typewritters but...oh wait I just did.

I kid :)

Brickroad
03-02-2010, 08:32 PM
The books take so long to get written I'm starting to wonder if they aren't being dictacted to a monkey with a typewriter. =)

I agree that the quality is the most important thing in the end... but quality counts for nothing if the books don't actually exist. I'm just not convinced a skilled writer like Martin really needs 5+ years to complete about a thousand pages of material.

ThornGhost
03-03-2010, 07:54 AM
I am quite excited to see the Game of Thrones series. HBO has a tendency to do these kinds of things right so hopefully we won't see a highly truncated or slap-dash effort.

As for any hope regarding Martin getting a Song of Ice and Fire book out in anything approaching a timely manner based on his comments online:

"As for me, I am getting back to work. There's good news on that front too -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is half-done!!!"
-George R. R. Martin
May 29, 2005

Calorie Mate
03-03-2010, 11:03 AM
Guys, this cast (http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/10/game-of-thrones-cast-with-photos-.html) is going to be amazing.

Yarp!

I'm excited! I'm halfway through the third book, I really need to pick it up again and finish reading everything.

Well, you've hit the point where I stopped reading. Congratulations?

Sheana
03-03-2010, 01:43 PM
My problem is that as much as I like and get really into the books, the sheer amount of gruesomeness and pornographic sex causes me to need huge breathers once in a while. My last/ongoing break occured after Tyrion and Sansa's forced marriage, because seriously why did I need to read that detailed description of Tyrion's penis what does that add to anything other than my poor brain's mental images.

BŁge
03-03-2010, 02:07 PM
The books take so long to get written I'm starting to wonder if they aren't being dictacted to a monkey with a typewriter. =)

I agree that the quality is the most important thing in the end... but quality counts for nothing if the books don't actually exist. I'm just not convinced a skilled writer like Martin really needs 5+ years to complete about a thousand pages of material.

That is true. But he's no spring chicken and he doesn't take care of himself very well. My ex told me that during his tenure at Odyssey (a writing workshop) he went drinking every night.

Anecdote:
Charles Vess told me a funny story at a convention. George R.R. Martin was booking a hotel room and was talking to the clerk over the phone. He gave his name as "George Martin" for credit card verification and the clerk goes, "George R.R. Martin?" George says yes, and the clerk goes "Why haven't you finished A Feast For Crows?!"

Tanto
03-03-2010, 02:18 PM
My problem is that as much as I like and get really into the books, the sheer amount of gruesomeness and pornographic sex causes me to need huge breathers once in a while. My last/ongoing break occured after Tyrion and Sansa's forced marriage, because seriously why did I need to read that detailed description of Tyrion's penis what does that add to anything other than my poor brain's mental images.

They're emotionally exhausting if you're accustomed to happy (or even neutral) endings. The best you're likely to get out of a ASoIaF book is a small, fleeting victory.

I feel the same way about K.J. Parker, who writes great books that I simply cannot read all the way through, because they're too cynical and depressing.

hypharse
03-03-2010, 02:37 PM
I am quite excited to see the Game of Thrones series. HBO has a tendency to do these kinds of things right so hopefully we won't see a highly truncated or slap-dash effort.

As for any hope regarding Martin getting a Song of Ice and Fire book out in anything approaching a timely manner based on his comments online:

"As for me, I am getting back to work. There's good news on that front too -- A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is half-done!!!"
-George R. R. Martin
May 29, 2005

lol. I'm going to hope that getting this tv series going is the one thing keeping his books delayed. I also think his strategy of making his homepage ugly as sin to keep people away is quite cunning. It's sad because given his pace and his age I envision another Robert Jordan type ending to the series.

Alex Scott
03-03-2010, 03:02 PM
Anecdote:
Charles Vess told me a funny story at a convention. George R.R. Martin was booking a hotel room and was talking to the clerk over the phone. He gave his name as "George Martin" for credit card verification and the clerk goes, "George R.R. Martin?" George says yes, and the clerk goes "Why haven't you finished A Feast For Crows?!"Lately I've found that talking to hotel employees at conventions is its own unique pleasure.

Azar
03-03-2010, 03:22 PM
lol. I'm going to hope that getting this tv series going is the one thing keeping his books delayed.
Reading his LJ will disabuse you of that idea pretty quickly!

Sheana
03-03-2010, 07:05 PM
They're emotionally exhausting if you're accustomed to happy (or even neutral) endings. The best you're likely to get out of a ASoIaF book is a small, fleeting victory.

I feel the same way about K.J. Parker, who writes great books that I simply cannot read all the way through, because they're too cynical and depressing.

Oh, that I'm fine with, that's not it at all. It's the overwhelming graphicness that's exhausting. There's a great deal of description that feels unnecessary and like it's there just to be there to me. Your story is interesting already Mr. Martin, I don't need a play-by-play description of such and such's entire sex life.

Googleshng
03-03-2010, 07:42 PM
Well, for what it's worth, Tyrion IS decent enough not to go right ahead and rape her, and the real point of this scene is pretty much just to get across what Tyrion is like from Sansa's perspective.

Sheana
03-03-2010, 08:23 PM
Well, for what it's worth, Tyrion IS decent enough not to go right ahead and rape her, and the real point of this scene is pretty much just to get across what Tyrion is like from Sansa's perspective.

Yeah, I got that scene entirely, no question. That was fine. But in what way did describingTyrion's deformed penis add anything of worth to it? Take that sentence or two out, the scene's exactly the same.

I don't consider myself that much of a prude, but there's only so much before I start going "oh for fuck's sake".

Adrenaline
03-03-2010, 08:29 PM
Well if it's only a sentence or two I don't see how it's a big deal. If he went on for pages, sure.

Brickroad
03-03-2010, 08:32 PM
The big "oh FFS" scene for me was in Feast, where Cersei all lezzes out with the hot Myrrish chick. Martin actually writes the phrase "Myrrish swamp" at one point.

The Tyrion scene makes sense to me given what his character is like and the context of the story. The Cersei scene is just so out of place it practically exists in a Boris Valejo work.

dwolfe
03-03-2010, 08:38 PM
Based on what? Past performance?

I used to be in the "be patient and wait" camp until I saw someone crunch the numbers, which revealed Martin writes an average of 74 words per day. Shit, I write more than that on this forum every day. This very post gets me over 3/4 the way there!

Quality control. Please, try publishing a book of your first 2000 posts ;)

Actually, a book of your survivor blog posts would sell around here. And you don't even have to think up the plot for that one!

Yeah, I got that scene entirely, no question. That was fine. But in what way did describingTyrion's deformed penis add anything of worth to it? Take that sentence or two out, the scene's exactly the same.

I don't consider myself that much of a prude, but there's only so much before I start going "oh for fuck's sake".

Sheana, are you a hideously deformed and mocked dwarf in real life (no!)? Do you know what it'd be like to, in addition, have such a deformed penis that you frighten women you might actually care about?

You might not like it, and that's cool, but it's not there just to gross you out. It's actually there because it's an ugly, unfair world that GRRM's building, with people to match.

Sheana
03-03-2010, 09:58 PM
Well if it's only a sentence or two I don't see how it's a big deal. If he went on for pages, sure.

That's just the one example I'm giving. He literally does go on quite a bit about that sort of thing, and that's what exasperates me. It's totally possible to write a dark, unforgiving work of fiction about a brutal and dirty world without lovingly describing pussy-eatin' for the umpteenth time.

AJR
03-03-2010, 10:09 PM
Good lord, I think it's been over a year since I last picked up the second book. I really should start reading it again.

blinkpen
03-04-2010, 02:16 AM
I'm down with the sex scenes, but then consider my profession. Even before that though I liked the frankness of them. Sex isn't always pretty, joyous, fulfilling, it can be as bleak and twisted as anything else in life. I enjoy it when an author is willing to explore that territory, few other mediums can get away with it.

Even if sometimes he probably is just writing them so explicit because he's a dirty old man. It's what I'd do.

ThornGhost
03-08-2010, 08:30 AM
I picked up "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss last week and started digging into it. I think it's sort of the new hotness for fantasy novels. Anyway, I'm really enjoying it, and I think most folks who like Ice and Fire will too.

It's not quite the same thing, but it sort of operates on the higher level of craftsmanship that Martin brings to the table for books that are ultimately about magic swords and dragons and stuff.

Wheels
03-08-2010, 08:57 AM
The series sounds fantastic and all but....

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY GIVE US THE FIFTH BOOK ALREADY

ThornGhost
11-08-2010, 07:17 AM
I was reminded today that this month marks the tenth anniversary of Storm of Swords being published in the US and the fifth anniversary of the publication of Feast for Crows, which was half of the original planned first book.

That's ten years without a Jon or Tyrion chapter and five without anything whatsoever.

Except WILD CARDS.

Nodal
11-08-2010, 08:00 AM
What, you don't like published fan fiction?

SpoonyBardOL
11-08-2010, 08:38 AM
Oh hey, I didn't even know this thread existed. Neat.

So I'm a total newbie to the series, I finished 'A Game of Thrones' a couple of weeks ago and am looking forward to more! The book really sucked me in and made me wish I had started on the series sooner.

On the other hand, looking at the discussion in this thread, it appears that if I HAD gotten into the series sooner I'd be in the same boat as all of you know, anxiously awaiting the next book. As it stands, I still have more to read, and if I'm fortunate the next book will be out by the time I'm totally caught up.

H-hey, why are you all laughing?

blinkpen
11-08-2010, 02:12 PM
I picked up "The Name of the Wind" by Patrick Rothfuss last week and started digging into it. I think it's sort of the new hotness for fantasy novels. Anyway, I'm really enjoying it, and I think most folks who like Ice and Fire will too.

It's not quite the same thing, but it sort of operates on the higher level of craftsmanship that Martin brings to the table for books that are ultimately about magic swords and dragons and stuff.

That's the one Tycho was all boners about, right? I should look into something that can fill the long winter between Ice and Fire releases.

kaisel
11-08-2010, 02:19 PM
That's the one Tycho was all boners about, right? I should look into something that can fill the long winter between Ice and Fire releases.

It's a good book, but it's currently having the same problem as A Song of Ice and Fire, in that it'll be about four years between the first one and the second one. Luckily it's only three books instead of seven, and my understanding is that it was originally intended as one long story, but was split into three.

SpoonyBardOL
11-08-2010, 03:46 PM
The Name of the Wind was pretty swell, yeah. I think some people had a problem with how Kvothe felt like kind of a Mary Sue, but it's not something I picked up on. It was a fun read.

With my limited knowledge of A Song of Ice and Fire being kept within the first book for now, The Name of the Wind uses magic and the fantastic a bit more often and doesn't have as much politicking. But the world, so far, seems as fleshed out and the characters in it are all well-written and likable, or hate-able, as the case is for some. Nothing quite on the level of Cersei yet, but there IS this one prick...

We should start a poll. Which will come out first? A Dance with Dragons or The Wise Man's Fear?

Actually this is kind of unfair because The Wise Man's Fear IS confirmed to be released next March, assuming nothing happens. So I guess the poll question should be 'Will A Dance With Dragons be finalized before The Wise Man's Fear is published?'

shivam
11-08-2010, 03:48 PM
a better question is what will come first, A Dance With Dragons, or the ressurection of Jesus Christ, the return of the 12th imam and the incarnation of Kalki, the final form of Vishnu?

fugu13
11-08-2010, 04:09 PM
I'm voting for Kalki.

Nodal
11-08-2010, 04:10 PM
Dance with dragons released 2 days before heat death of the universe.

"Pretty good" says a bystander.

Brickroad
11-08-2010, 04:53 PM
Someday, hopefully someday very very soon, Martin will die and someone else will finish the series.

And it will most likely be just fine.

Nodal
11-08-2010, 05:36 PM
Someday, hopefully someday very very soon, Martin will die and someone else will finish the series.

And it will most likely be just fine.

Brandon Sanderson starts bumping off slow-writing fantasy authors so he can finish their series in a reasonable amount of time.

Paul le Fou
11-08-2010, 06:30 PM
Man, I just realized it's been over 4 years since I burned through the IaF books and started waiting.

Still waiting...

Hey, at least we'll have the TV series soon. To remind us of how fucking long it's taking to write that goddamned book.

Googleshng
11-08-2010, 10:57 PM
Someday, hopefully someday very very soon, Martin will die and someone else will finish the series.

And it will most likely be just fine.

Why wait! I'll finish it right now!


OK so Littlefinger goes all ohoho I have some big evil plan or something but Arya comes in and kills him and also kills Sansa because they don't recognize each other through mutual disguises and then she does after she kills her and totally loses it and meanwhile it turns out that Ned wasn't Jon's real father and he's the secret TRUE heir to the throne and somehow so is Tyrion and when Danys finally shows up she's all "Wait, THIS is the kingdom I've been trying to win this whole time? This place is a @#$%ing DUMP and then gets raped by a few people and then teams up with Jon and Tyrion and Melisandre who really turns out not to be all that bad and they kill all the wights and at some point it turns out that that whole bit about Hodor's name actually being Walder was foreshadowing that he's actually in first place to take the throne over all the many many other Walders and most of the main cast dies so you end up with Rickon as Lord of Winterfell, and way down south they revolt and break away from the main part of the Kingdom and is ruled, after a series of conspiracies, by whoever is played by the hottest actress in the TV series, and Asha Greyjoy never actually ends up getting to do anything interesting.


There you go. Closure.

Paul le Fou
11-08-2010, 11:37 PM
At least one of those points is already (going to be) true, and it's not even close to a last-minute turnaround!

Olli T
11-09-2010, 01:02 AM
What about all the stuff in Crows

SpoonyBardOL
11-09-2010, 04:53 AM
I dunno guys. I know it's mostly tongue-in-cheek, but saying 'gee I hope the author of this thing I love DIES so someone else can finish it FASTER' seems pretty harsh. :/

Maybe it's because I'm still new to the series and haven't had to wait half a decade for anything yet, but still...

Brickroad
11-09-2010, 05:02 AM
I dunno guys. I know it's mostly tongue-in-cheek, but saying 'gee I hope the author of this thing I love DIES so someone else can finish it FASTER' seems pretty harsh. :/

The mistake you're making here is that Martin is an author. There's pretty strong evidence to suggest he isn't, at least, not anymore! He's just some old fat dude sitting on the books.

While we're on the subject, though, I would love for Martin to lift his embargo on ASOIAF fanfiction. Hell, he could probably make a killing by dipping his fingers into a Westeros Extended Universe thing, and keep his rabid fanboys off his back at the same time!

Alex Scott
11-09-2010, 05:04 AM
I'm kind of obligated to vote for Christ's parousia (it'd be the rest of the dead that get resurrected), but I'd also like to nominate the coming of the next Buddha, Maitreya, and mankind's first step on an extrasolar planet.

Paul le Fou
11-09-2010, 05:33 AM
What about all the stuff in Crows

what about all what stuff in crows



The mistake you're making here is that Martin is an author. There's pretty strong evidence to suggest he isn't, at least, not anymore! He's just some old fat dude sitting on the books.

That's the thing, though. He's still doing plenty of writing. He's working on all sorts of other projects. Just not this one. That's the part that infuriates me, especially because this is what made him famous and this is, to be blunt, the only reason anyone gives a shit about him. And he seems to be ignoring that to work on his other pet projects. Which is his right, but also fuck him for it.

For the record though, I'm not wishing death upon him and I don't want someone else to finish the books. I want him to finish the books. And for that not to take forfuckingever.



The part that gets me is that there was originally supposed to be a timeskip after the end of book 3 that went several years until what will now be book 6. Then he said too much stuff was happening and he wanted to get it in the books, so he added another book. Which then turned into two books... one of which is still not done. All the shit he's getting hung up on and not actually doing wasn't even supposed to be there in the first place.

Brickroad
11-09-2010, 05:35 AM
That's the thing, though. He's still doing plenty of writing.

Is he, though? I know he does a lot of revising and editing, and compiles old works for re-re-re-release, and he's doing some comic adaptations (Fevre Dream is magnificent, by the way), and of course the HBO series... but is he actually for-real writing anything?

ThornGhost
11-09-2010, 05:56 AM
is he actually for-real writing anything?

Dude, he writes on his LiveJournal (http://grrm.livejournal.com/)! Th-that counts, right?

Karzac
11-09-2010, 06:38 AM
The mistake you're making here is that Martin is an author. There's pretty strong evidence to suggest he isn't, at least, not anymore! He's just some old fat dude sitting on the books.

He's still been writing books. Just not Ice and Fire books. He wrote A couple Wild Cards books, I think he had some collaboration and he wrote another Dunk and Egg story. I think his novel Armageddon Rag came out after Feast as well, although I don't know when it was written.

BŁge
11-09-2010, 08:02 AM
Someday, hopefully someday very very soon, Martin will die and someone else will finish the series.

And it will most likely be just fine.

Not if it gets handed to someone like Terry Goodkind or Kevin J. Anderson, it won't.

Olli T
11-09-2010, 08:47 AM
He's still been writing books. Just not Ice and Fire books. He wrote A couple Wild Cards books,

I'm pretty sure he didn't write the Wild Card books, just edited them.

Reinforcements
11-09-2010, 09:17 AM
Not if it gets handed to someone like Terry Goodkind or Kevin J. Anderson, it won't.
You just made me barf all over my keyboard, thanks a lot. It, uh, still works though. It's an awesome keyboard.

Dhroo
11-09-2010, 10:54 AM
and he wrote another Dunk and Egg story

Which was awesome, by the way. If you need an Ice and Fire fix, you can't go wrong with Dunk and Egg stories, even if they do take place almost a century before the main series.

Mokrap of Croton
11-09-2010, 11:15 AM
Man, I just realized it's been over 4 years since I burned through the IaF books and started waiting.

Still waiting...

Hey, at least we'll have the TV series soon. To remind us of how fucking long it's taking to write that goddamned book.

In a similar situation. I started a second run through them, though, in the vain hope that it will all be fresh on my mind when the next one is published. I'm about halfway through Clash of Kings now.

This series really is the only fantasy series, other than LOTR, that has interested me at all. Most likely this is due to the focus on political intrigue with underpinnings of the fantastic, rather than some batshit OMFG AWESOME FLYING HORSES AND ELF TITS stuff most other series seem to be. If we really lived in a vaguely magical, technologically stunted world, those of us that could read would all be reading political thrillers just like this.

Olli T
11-09-2010, 11:22 AM
Which was awesome, by the way. If you need an Ice and Fire fix, you can't go wrong with Dunk and Egg stories, even if they do take place almost a century before the main series.

The comic adaptations are pretty great, too!

Googleshng
11-09-2010, 11:31 AM
What about all the stuff in Crows

I covered that. Again, whoever ends up played by the hottest actress wins and everyone else dies tragically.

ringworm
11-09-2010, 11:32 AM
I like how the sane people have stopped even bothering to get involved with this retarded conversation.

Dhroo
11-09-2010, 11:37 AM
This series really is the only fantasy series, other than LOTR, that has interested me at all. Most likely this is due to the focus on political intrigue with underpinnings of the fantastic, rather than some batshit OMFG AWESOME FLYING HORSES AND ELF TITS stuff most other series seem to be. If we really lived in a vaguely magical, technologically stunted world, those of us that could read would all be reading political thrillers just like this.

Well, "Low Fantasy", as I've heard it called, is something of a growing sub-genre, but there is other stuff out there with a similar tone to ASOIAF.

The comic adaptations are pretty great, too!

Oh, definitely. Though I did think the Sworn Sword adaptation was a little lackluster, but that might just be because it's easily the weakest of the three stories. I really hope a Mystery Knight comic is in the works.

Adrenaline
11-09-2010, 08:07 PM
I like how the sane people have stopped even bothering to get involved with this retarded conversation.

Let's talk about how Peter Dinklage will be a badass Tyrion.

Karzac
11-09-2010, 08:12 PM
Let's talk about how Peter Dinklage will be a badass Tyrion.

Yes, and how awesome Sean Bean will be as Ned. I wish I got HBO.

Mokrap of Croton
11-09-2010, 08:33 PM
Well, "Low Fantasy", as I've heard it called, is something of a growing sub-genre, but there is other stuff out there with a similar tone to ASOIAF.

"Low Fantasy," eh? I like the sound of that. Sounds better than "realistic fantasy" which I've also heard bandied about. Or "fantastorical," which could apply to anything spanning enough time and says nothing of the tone.

Any recommendations for similar works would be appreciated, but I won't get around to them until I'm done running through ASOIAF again (and am once again disappointed when the new one still isn't out).

Dhroo
11-09-2010, 10:23 PM
Any recommendations for similar works would be appreciated, but I won't get around to them until I'm done running through ASOIAF again (and am once again disappointed when the new one still isn't out).

I've got two good ones I've enjoyed lately:

First, The Lies of Locke Lamora, by Scott Lynch, is about a band of con artists and takes place in an almost Renaissance-like setting. I've heard it compared very often to Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series. Two books out so far, with the third(and final, I think?) to come out in February, so no worries of anxiously awaiting the conclusion.

Second, Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. This one focuses much more on war and politics, with magic/otherworldly elements building in the background. Also, there are some really great and well-written characters in these books. Haven't finished it yet myself, just started the second book. The series is complete, so no waiting at all with this one.

Like ASOIAF, both are low on magic and the supernatural, and are also similarly gritty and realistic.

kaisel
11-09-2010, 10:50 PM
I've got two good ones I've enjoyed lately:

First, The Lies of Locke Lamora, by Scott Lynch, is about a band of con artists and takes place in an almost Renaissance-like setting. I've heard it compared very often to Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser series. Two books out so far, with the third(and final, I think?) to come out in February, so no worries of anxiously awaiting the conclusion.

Second, Joe Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. This one focuses much more on war and politics, with magic/otherworldly elements building in the background. Also, there are some really great and well-written characters in these books. Haven't finished it yet myself, just started the second book. The series is complete, so no waiting at all with this one.

Like ASOIAF, both are low on magic and the supernatural, and are also similarly gritty and realistic.

The Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies were both really good (the former was better than the latter). My understanding though is that the series is supposed to be 7 books, which is disappointing since they're good reads.

Brer
11-09-2010, 11:40 PM
"Low Fantasy," eh? I like the sound of that. Sounds better than "realistic fantasy" which I've also heard bandied about. Or "fantastorical," which could apply to anything spanning enough time and says nothing of the tone.

Any recommendations for similar works would be appreciated, but I won't get around to them until I'm done running through ASOIAF again (and am once again disappointed when the new one still isn't out).

Low Fantasy's been around for quite awhile, but yeah, it's become more popular recently. My recommendation:

-The Chalion books, starting with The Curse of Chalion by Lois McMaster Bujold. It's loosely inspired by the unification of Castile and Aragon, but mostly it's a low magic study in free will, divine interventions, and miracles, with a healthy side-order of politics. If you like the first book, the next two are Paladin Of Souls (a sequel following the life of a different character) and The Hallowed Hunt (set in the same world but in a very distant country and following totally new characters).

Olli T
11-10-2010, 12:17 AM
Guy Gavriel Kay writes pretty good low fantasy. The Fiovnavar Tapestry series is high fantasy, and not bad as such, but the rest of his stuff that I've read tends to be kind of like historical fiction except that it's set in fictional worlds (that closely resemble ours).

Mightyblue
11-10-2010, 12:36 AM
I picked up those at a Goodwill bookstore (the original hardcover printing no less either, apparently). Pretty good.

Brickroad
11-10-2010, 02:02 AM
I'm going to have to consider some of the recommendations in this thread. After reading ASoIaF, I could never go back to Dragonlance and its ilk.

Olli T
11-10-2010, 04:40 AM
I'm going to have to consider some of the recommendations in this thread. After reading ASoIaF, I could never go back to Dragonlance and its ilk.

The original Dragonlance books aren't bad for what they are. They do get increasingly horrible, though.

Paul le Fou
11-10-2010, 05:29 AM
Which was awesome, by the way. If you need an Ice and Fire fix, you can't go wrong with Dunk and Egg stories, even if they do take place almost a century before the main series.

Where can one catch said story? I only was able to read the first two as comics; don't know where I can find the actual story-stories. (I should read the first two as well while I'm at it, if I can.)

ThornGhost
11-10-2010, 06:11 AM
Where can one catch said story? I only was able to read the first two as comics; don't know where I can find the actual story-stories. (I should read the first two as well while I'm at it, if I can.)

The Hedge Knight and the Sworn Sword were in the first and second "Legends" anthologies that came out a while back. The first one is considerably easier to find in my experience if you're looking for it locally. Any used paperback store worth its salt will probably have piles of them gathering dust somewhere or another.

The most recent one is in the "Warriors" anthology that GRRMy edited recently. Probably still in hardback only, and I've heard that the new Dunk and Egg story isn't very good.

That aside, some of you may have heard the rumors that George is only five chapters away from finishing Dance and his publishers are hoping for some news by January. Here's a bit of math in case you somehow deluded yourself into getting hopeful:

A Feast for Crows is half of the length of the originally planned fourth book. This means that it should be roughly the size of Dance with Dragons, though with GRRM moving chapters back to the sixth book, Dance may be a little shorter. Feast had 46 chapters.

Gurm said he was half done with Dance after the release of Feast. That means he had 23 chapters left to write as of May 29, 2005. That was 64 months ago.

With 5 chapters left to go, he has completed 18 chapters in 64 months. That is a rate of one chapter every 3.555 months. If he stays at that same rate, he will complete those final five chapters in roughly 18 months, or a year and a half.

Somehow I can't imagine he has increased his productivity by 600% in the middle of football season to crank out five chapters in three months. He'll shuffle along like he always does and we'll hear that he has completed the book in May, 2012.

SpoonyBardOL
11-10-2010, 06:14 AM
I'm going to have to consider some of the recommendations in this thread. After reading ASoIaF, I could never go back to Dragonlance and its ilk.

I've never read Dragonlance, so I don't have a basis for comparison. But I think The Name of the Wind is worth checking out regardless.

As I already mentioned, it's less political and elements of fantasy have more of a presence than in ASoIaF. But the rules of magic in this world are established and it sticks to those rules, at least I don't recall any part of the book where they're casually broken. The magic in that world kind of feels related to Alchemy in Fullmetal Alchemist, if you know the series, but related like a 'distant cousin', not like brother and sister. If that makes any kind of sense.

The main character, Kvothe, is conveniently skilled at a few too many things (he's a genius bard, AND a genius street rat, AND a genius student, AND a genius magic user!) and this is where a lot of the 'Mary Sue' accusations come from. That, and the 'my entire family was killed by the obvious big bad!' sort of backstory. So a more cynical reader would probably roll their eyes right out of their head at those descriptions and stop.

But the book is more than that. Despite Kvothe's blessed natural talents he still hits rock bottom a hard way and you watch him climb his way out of it. He still makes many mistakes, with consequences, despite his aforementioned gifts.

The entire story is told from Kvothe's perspective, and his 'voice' makes for a very nice read.

Karzac
11-10-2010, 08:08 AM
Yeah, The Name of the Wind is great. My favourite part is that, while it has a science-y internally consistent type of magic, there's also a spooky, nobody-really-knows-how-it-works type of magic. The two work really well together.

I would also recommend The Gentleman Bastard sequence which consists of The Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies so far. They're pretty good if you like capers, heists and con-man stories. They're not super deep, but they're fun and the characters and world are likeable.

Dhroo
11-10-2010, 08:31 AM
The Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies were both really good (the former was better than the latter). My understanding though is that the series is supposed to be 7 books, which is disappointing since they're good reads.

Huh, I hadn't heard that! Come to think of it, I can't really remember where I heard that The Republic of Thieves would be the conclusion. Maybe I just assumed it because the plot description sounds kind of conclusion-y?

The most recent one is in the "Warriors" anthology that GRRM edited recently. Probably still in hardback only, and I've heard that the new Dunk and Egg story isn't very good.

I dunno, I thought it was pretty great. Sure it's another tourney story, but there's much more going on in it than that. Also, it was nice to see Dunk be kind of bad-ass for once. "I told you I'm better with a sword."

Warriors is coming out in paperback early next year, and in cheap mass market form, too!

Tanto
11-10-2010, 08:41 AM
I would also recommend The Gentleman Bastard sequence which consists of The Lies of Locke Lamora and Red Seas Under Red Skies so far. They're pretty good if you like capers, heists and con-man stories. They're not super deep, but they're fun and the characters and world are likeable.

Unless, of course, you're one of those people who is on George R.R. Martin's case for not finishing ASoIaF, because Lynch is, if anything, even worse. A Republic of Thieves was supposed to be out three years ago.

The hilarious thing is that not only is Gentleman Bastard supposed to be a seven-book series, Lynch also has a second seven-book series planned in this world, as well as at least one collection of short stories. I probably shouldn't make fun, because I understand it his wife has had recurring health problems and Lynch himself deals with crippling anxiety, but still -- shouldn't you get halfway through your first series before announcing your massive expanded universe?

shivam
11-10-2010, 08:56 AM
I'm going to have to consider some of the recommendations in this thread. After reading ASoIaF, I could never go back to Dragonlance and its ilk.

yeah, well, dragonlance doesn't want you ANYWAY, jerk!

/runs away crying

Dhroo
11-10-2010, 09:07 AM
The hilarious thing is that not only is Gentleman Bastard supposed to be a seven-book series, Lynch also has a second seven-book series planned in this world, as well as at least one collection of short stories. I probably shouldn't make fun, because I understand it his wife has had recurring health problems and Lynch himself deals with crippling anxiety, but still -- shouldn't you get halfway through your first series before announcing your massive expanded universe?

No, you shouldn't.

It's easy to get carried away with something you've created that you're excited about, and maybe he was a little premature in announcing other works. But that's no reason to disregard the difficulties he's having in his personal life.

Adrenaline
11-10-2010, 09:08 AM
I know we've been calling it low fantasy but Wiki actually calls aSoIaF high fantasy. The difference being the nature of the setting rather than the relative amount of Magical Shit Happening.

kaisel
11-10-2010, 09:08 AM
Unless, of course, you're one of those people who is on George R.R. Martin's case for not finishing ASoIaF, because Lynch is, if anything, even worse. A Republic of Thieves was supposed to be out three years ago.

The hilarious thing is that not only is Gentleman Bastard supposed to be a seven-book series, Lynch also has a second seven-book series planned in this world, as well as at least one collection of short stories. I probably shouldn't make fun, because I understand it his wife has had recurring health problems and Lynch himself deals with crippling anxiety, but still -- shouldn't you get halfway through your first series before announcing your massive expanded universe?

On the other hand though, at least most of the series is pretty standalone in that I'm not waiting for some huge conclusion or anything. But yeah, when I read that he was doing two seven book series I just shook my head and decided not to get too invested.

I'm going to have to consider some of the recommendations in this thread. After reading ASoIaF, I could never go back to Dragonlance and its ilk.

I'm not picking on you or trying to single you out (I can understand your opinion/position), but those sort of statements are probably what made me grow the most weary about Martin's books and writing. I guess the bigger lesson is I really should avoid fandoms in general.

Reading long screeds about moral relativism, in regards to the series was probably a bigger nail in the coffin for avoiding Martin's fans

Reinforcements
11-10-2010, 09:55 AM
I know we've been calling it low fantasy but Wiki actually calls aSoIaF high fantasy. The difference being the nature of the setting rather than the relative amount of Magical Shit Happening.
Mmm, ASoIaF still strikes me as low fantasy. It's pretty dang gritty, which is the hallmark of low fantasy as far as I can tell. Whatever!
yeah, well, dragonlance doesn't want you ANYWAY, jerk!

/runs away crying
Can we all hold hands and hate R.A. Salvatore, at least? (I'm not a huge fan of Dragonlance but Salvatore is the trashiest trash fantasy.)

Rascally Badger
11-10-2010, 10:26 AM
Mmm, ASoIaF still strikes me as low fantasy. It's pretty dang gritty, which is the hallmark of low fantasy as far as I can tell. Whatever!

ASoIaF is pretty solidly High Fantasy. Because it takes place in a fictional world, which is what the difference between High and Low Fantasy is. If ASoIaF took place in actual Medieval Britain, but with dragons, then it would probably be considered low fantasy. The stuff people seem to be trying to differentiate it from is Swords and Sorcery and not High Fantasy.

Can we all hold hands and hate R.A. Salvatore, at least? (I'm not a huge fan of Dragonlance but Salvatore is the trashiest trash fantasy.)

A lot of people love Salvatore and I have never been able to understand why. I borrowed a bunch of the books from a good friend who would not shut up about them and I could barely get through them. And this was in high school when I was reading about 5 books a week. I can not think of a single thing to recommend about his stuff.

That same friend also recommended the Wheel of Time to me and that is my favorite fantasy thing, so I do not know what to make of his recommendations now.

shivam
11-10-2010, 10:30 AM
i admit that salvatore scratches a certain itch for me--it's a pure D&D dungeon crawl set to text. When i'm in the mood for unadulterated hack and slash, treasure hunting and lots of monster death, i grab a salvatore book. It's the lit equivalent of playing dynasty warriors--you're not gonna get any real sustenance out of it, but sometimes you just want to kill a whole mess of dudes and not think about it.

tungwene
11-10-2010, 01:18 PM
Guy Gavriel Kay writes pretty good low fantasy. The Fiovnavar Tapestry series is high fantasy, and not bad as such, but the rest of his stuff that I've read tends to be kind of like historical fiction except that it's set in fictional worlds (that closely resemble ours).I myself am very partial to Lions of Al-Rassan and Tigana, the latter I would classify as high fantasy because even though the setting is Italy-like, the rest of the world the book is set in is nothing like any historical time.

Olli T
11-10-2010, 01:56 PM
I myself am very partial to Lions of Al-Rassan and Tigana, the latter I would classify as high fantasy because even though the setting is Italy-like, the rest of the world the book is set in is nothing like any historical time.

Well, the difference between high fantasy and low fantasy is usually more the amount of magical stuff happening and not the shape of the world, but Tigana does have the magic spell that erases the entire city-state out of almost everyone's mind, so.

Mokrap of Croton
11-10-2010, 02:48 PM
A lot of people love Salvatore and I have never been able to understand why. I borrowed a bunch of the books from a good friend who would not shut up about them and I could barely get through them. And this was in high school when I was reading about 5 books a week. I can not think of a single thing to recommend about his stuff.

I had a friend back in highschool who was way into Salvatore, as well. I read most of the first book in the Cyrstal Shard series (I think that was the title).

It was pretty much shittastic all around, but one thing that always stuck out as particularly annoying was the way Drizzt used his scimitars: he was always stabbing things with them. That seemed asinine.

Adrenaline
11-10-2010, 06:26 PM
Mmm, ASoIaF still strikes me as low fantasy. It's pretty dang gritty, which is the hallmark of low fantasy as far as I can tell. Whatever!

That's more just dark fantasy.

Googleshng
11-10-2010, 08:52 PM
I question how well any of these terms are defined or are being applied... except for Dark Fantasy which... REALLY means something else entirely. Let's just say "It's technically fantasy but rather than going with elves and dwarves and magic it's more infected face wounds and incest and rumors of cannibalism."

Brickroad
11-10-2010, 09:05 PM
It'd just be nice if there were a good term for it, because the whole point of having a term is so you don't have to desceibe what you're talking about in detail.

I've seen ASoIaF called "hard fantasy", too, supposedly comparable to hard sci-fi, which is really dumb considering what hard sci-fi is supposed to mean.

Olli T
11-10-2010, 11:55 PM
Hard Fantasy sounds like the title of a dirty movie.

Rascally Badger
11-11-2010, 12:13 AM
Hard Fantasy sounds like the title of a dirty movie.

I've got a hard fantasy right now.

Nodal
11-11-2010, 05:16 AM
I question how well any of these terms are defined or are being applied... except for Dark Fantasy which... REALLY means something else entirely. Let's just say "It's technically fantasy but rather than going with elves and dwarves and magic it's more infected face wounds and incest and rumors of cannibalism."

I'm not seeing the problem here.

Reinforcements
11-11-2010, 06:24 AM
My understanding of high fantasy vs. low fantasy was always that they basically meant "like Lord of the Rings" vs. "like Conan." I've definitely heard Conan cited at the prototypical low fantasy work. Whatever! They are vague terms at best.

Adrenaline
11-11-2010, 08:15 AM
I'm glad I could bring murky vagueness to the discussion.

Olli T
11-11-2010, 09:31 AM
Low Fantasy is a term used to describe a variety of works within differing sub-genres of Fantasy fiction. The word "low" refers to the prominence of traditional fantasy elements within the work, and is not any sort of remark on the work's quality. Within the fantasy genre, low fantasy is often contrasted with high fantasy, which typically takes place, partly or entirely, in a completely fictional setting and places an emphasis upon fantasy elements such as magic, monsters, and non-real literary devices. Low Fantasy works typically place relatively less emphasis on such fantasy elements and often take place within real-world environments, as opposed to entirely fictional settings.

Adrenaline
11-11-2010, 09:52 AM
The point of confusion is that the aSoIaF page lists the series as high fantasy.

dwolfe
11-11-2010, 12:33 PM
My amazon.com preorder for ADwD is about three years old at this point o.O

Olli T
11-11-2010, 01:00 PM
The point of confusion is that the aSoIaF page lists the series as high fantasy.

Ah, but the thing with the series is that magic used to be just stories, but now it's coming back. Dragons, spells, wights, scrying and whatever are getting more and more common again.

Mokrap of Croton
11-11-2010, 01:01 PM
My amazon.com preorder for ADwD is about three years old at this point o.O

ADwD's publishing is the highest of fantasies.

Brer
11-11-2010, 02:16 PM
My understanding of high fantasy vs. low fantasy was always that they basically meant "like Lord of the Rings" vs. "like Conan." I've definitely heard Conan cited at the prototypical low fantasy work. Whatever! They are vague terms at best.

Nope! Whoever gave you that impression confused Low Fantasy (magic is relatively weak/rare, little to no "fantasy races", connects with the real world or draws more from historical parallels and patterns) with Sword And Sorcery (Guileful, independent heroes wander the ancient land in search of gold, girls, and glory. Conan, Fafhrd & The Grey Mouser, Kull, Zothique, etc).

Sword and Sorcery is sometimes likened to Low Fantasy because they both tend to de-emphasize magic and fantasy races, but in different ways. Low Fantasy keeps it restrained to create a more grounded and "realistic" feel. Sword and Sorcery keeps it restrained because the heroes are generally men of action who have little patience with or trust of magicians and their ilk. In the latter magic is strange rare stuff that's best ignored or destroyed if it can't be sold as loot.

In short, Sword and Sorcery is the stuff that deserves illustrations from Frazetta, Brom, and so on.

tungwene
11-11-2010, 02:57 PM
ADwD's publishing is the highest of fantasies./thread

blinkpen
11-11-2010, 02:57 PM
Funny, I had always heard Conan referred to as low fantasy and assumed Sword and Sorcery was just another term for high fantasy.

shivam
11-11-2010, 03:00 PM
the difference is between conan and forgotten realms-- conan has magic and shit, but it's much rarer than the realms, where people cast fireballs to cook with, you know?

BŁge
11-11-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm savouring the image of Conan beheading a startled Elminster like a fine wine.

Olli T
11-11-2010, 10:39 PM
Funny, I had always heard Conan referred to as low fantasy and assumed Sword and Sorcery was just another term for high fantasy.

Conan is almost synonymous with Sword and Sorcery.

You know, sword and sorcery always reminds me of a similarly named but completely different genre, sword-and-sandal (think: Spartacus, Ben Hur). I wonder if there's also a genre of sandals and sorcery?

Mightyblue
11-12-2010, 02:17 AM
Any of the old Greek epics, pretty much.

Adrenaline
11-18-2010, 08:57 PM
This site (http://www.makinggameofthrones.com/) is of interest to anyone looking forward to the television adaptation, and especially these images (http://www.ew.com/ew/gallery/0,,20385926_20442931,00.html).

taosterman
11-18-2010, 09:04 PM
Nice. Dinklage is perfect, but we all knew that already.

vaterite
11-19-2010, 05:45 AM
Nice. Dinklage is perfect, but we all knew that already.

I assume he's going to be great. I had always imagined a more grotesquely deformed character who wasn't quite as small as an actual dwarf, but my mind does crazy things sometimes.

And Lena Heady finally is cast in the role of ice queen, rather than just playing one no matter what role she's cast in.


And.....did they just show use the Eyrie in that last shot?

ThornGhost
11-19-2010, 05:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the next to last shot is Tyrion in his cell outside of the Eyrie as well.

Olli T
11-19-2010, 07:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the next to last shot is Tyrion in his cell outside of the Eyrie as well.

Yeah, it's gotta be.

Adrenaline
11-19-2010, 08:56 AM
I'm really excited. Usually when adaptations of things I've read are filmed, they look a lot different from how I imagined them, but except for some of the specific faces (and Danaerys in general), these are all spot on.

Merus
11-19-2010, 09:05 AM
The main character, Kvothe, is conveniently skilled at a few too many things (he's a genius bard, AND a genius street rat, AND a genius student, AND a genius magic user!) and this is where a lot of the 'Mary Sue' accusations come from.

As someone who knows a fair bit about gifted people, Kvothe is really close. It's a rich vein for fantasy, because a surprising amount of the psychological reports of gifted adults tend to get semi-mystical. The psychological reports. There's a line in The Name of the Wind which is almost a paraphrase of something reportedly said to Picasso's mother (it's the one about if Kvothe chooses to be a trouper, he'll write an epic, if he becomes a scholar, he'll be a Master. Something like that. Picasso wryly added to his version, "But I chose to be a painter, and became a Picasso.")

oh sorry this was about those new shots wasn't it. pardon me!

(I saw the shots on EW. There was a moment of cognitive dissonance when I saw the headline 'A Game of Thrones: First look!', let me tell you.)

Jeanie
11-19-2010, 02:02 PM
My only problem I have is that Jon Snow's coloring looks to be way different from Ned's. Sorry, I know I'm nitpicking, but that's a damn important plot point there.

SpoonyBardOL
11-20-2010, 04:46 PM
I forgot to mention, my copy of Clash of Kings arrived a few days ago. Woot!

But it came with an annoying gold sticker on the cover advertising the HBO series. Which is all well and good but it's one of those cheap kinds of stickers that doesn't peel off easily and leaves all kinds of glue and a thin layer of paper. Boo!

Just a pet peeve of mine. I mean, ever since we've had the advances in sticker technology that produces kinds that peel off effortlessly, these ancient cheap ones that leave a mess on everything should be freaking illegal.

PS: Screenies of said HBO series look pretty awesome.

SpoonyBardOL
11-30-2010, 07:18 AM
Go-Go Gadget double post!

So have you guys seen the latest teaser? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5kZ10UYLlY) Because it's pretty awesome.

Highlights include Ned's talk with Bran, which is ironic when you think about how he dies and TYRION BITCHSLAP!

Seriously, so far this thing looks like it could easily be a theatrical release, but better since instead we get a TV series that won't be paced horribly.

At least we hope.

ThornGhost
01-03-2011, 08:32 AM
So apparently GRRM is going to make an announcement on January 9th.

Is it a 25% off sale on water damaged 2009 Song of Ice and Fire calendars? What about an announcement about Papa John's special "Game of Thrones" TV show tie-in pizza promotion? Perhaps it will be GRRM's Superbowl predictions.

I CANNOT WAIT

Nodal
01-03-2011, 08:39 AM
So apparently GRRM is going to make an announcement on January 9th.

Is it a 25% off sale on water damaged 2009 Song of Ice and Fire calendars? What about an announcement about Papa John's special "Game of Thrones" TV show tie-in pizza promotion? Perhaps it will be GRRM's Superbowl predictions.

I CANNOT WAIT

New Wild Cards book.

fugu13
01-03-2011, 09:58 AM
New Wild Cards book.

Tuf Voyaging 2: The New Testament.

Portraits of His Children, the Graphic Novel (with "Seriously messed up, but we think it's somehow just barely not adult content in Tokyo!" sticker)

(Okay, so those are only funny if you've read the originals. Being drunk would probably help, too).

shivam
01-03-2011, 10:16 AM
i'm over GRRM until he finishes for real.

Odin
01-03-2011, 03:47 PM
New Wild Cards book and Superbowl predictions.

Fix'd, thanks to ThornGhost. Everyone knows he isn't going to talk about ADwD's delay until June 2011, when he announces it's "almost finished" and will be released "later this year decade"

Googleshng
01-03-2011, 04:11 PM
http://www.kekkai.org/google/random/george.png

Paul le Fou
01-03-2011, 04:34 PM
http://www.kekkai.org/google/random/george.png

*slow clap*

But seriously, shivam has the right of it. I wonder if it'll even be worth reading the new book until they're all out. Then again I'm a stranger to this kind of drawn-out epic fantasy wait. (msotly 'cause they're bullshit)

SpoonyBardOL
01-03-2011, 05:04 PM
In less cynical news, my job starts again tomorrow, and the book I plan to read during my slow time is the next book in the series, A Clash of Kings.

The book itself is even a bit heavier than A Game of Thrones, I guess this one will take me a bit!

Brickroad
01-04-2011, 05:41 PM
http://www.kekkai.org/google/random/george.png

Hahahaha!

Cyrael
01-05-2011, 06:32 PM
So uh... No big announcement from GRRM since he was in the hospital for a while with a nasty urinary tract infection.

blinkpen
01-05-2011, 08:44 PM
I will definitely read every book that comes out, but I have given up hope on ever seeing an ending. That doesn't mean it's not still worthwhile to go as far down as the road leads.

ringworm
01-05-2011, 08:51 PM
I will definitely read every book that comes out, but I have given up hope on ever seeing an ending. That doesn't mean it's not still worthwhile to go as far down as the road leads.
Amen.

Maybe it's all the television I watch, but not getting a proper ending has never affected my affection for quality.

Brickroad
01-05-2011, 09:36 PM
It's always something with this fuckin' guy!

Adrenaline
01-06-2011, 09:29 AM
I highly doubt that if he dies before finishing the series, he won't have left enough notes and partially written chapters behind for someone else to do it for him like with Tolkien and Jordan.

Karzac
01-06-2011, 07:27 PM
I highly doubt that if he dies before finishing the series, he won't have left enough notes and partially written chapters behind for someone else to do it for him like with Tolkien and Jordan.

I'm pretty sure that he's explicitly said that he won't do that. He could change his mind though.

Olli T
01-06-2011, 11:25 PM
You guys do know it's really creepy when you talk about the man like that, right?

Grignr
01-07-2011, 04:50 AM
You guys do know it's really creepy when you talk about the man like that, right?

I had written a long rant about how Frank Herbert ruined my childhood by dying before writing that last Dune book, but I deleted that because it's different now. The Internet changed our relationship with authors. They used to be just names on the spine of books that appeared magically in bookstores. We didn't know them personally (unless we tracked them down at cons).

On the other hand, we didn't have to hear about Tolkien's favorite cricket team while he dithered over variant texts of The Silmarillion and sold us miniatures of the Valar.

Adrenaline
01-07-2011, 05:15 AM
I honestly think he will finish the series without incident. But maybe that's just because it hasn't been six years since I read a new book.

Reinforcements
01-07-2011, 06:31 AM
I had written a long rant about how Frank Herbert ruined my childhood by dying before writing that last Dune book, but I deleted that because it's different now.
Are you implying that Chapterhouse and God Emperor didn't ALREADY ruin your childhood? Or at least make you kinda depressed and confused?

Karzac
01-07-2011, 10:05 AM
You guys do know it's really creepy when you talk about the man like that, right?

Yeah I know. I try to avoid the topic.

ringworm
01-07-2011, 10:25 AM
On the other hand, we didn't have to hear about Tolkien's favorite cricket team while he dithered over variant texts of The Silmarillion and sold us miniatures of the Valar.
I wasn't aware GRRM was forcing you to read his personal blog.

Karzac
01-07-2011, 12:03 PM
I wasn't aware GRRM was forcing you to read his personal blog.

Yeah, that's something I've never understood people complaining about. So the guy likes football. I seriously doubt that he sits around all day watching it. More likely, he works all day and then watches the game when he's done. You know, like millions of other football fans. The guys allowed to have a life.

taosterman
01-07-2011, 12:05 PM
I think it's just the cognitive dissonance between big nerd icon writing about big jock thing. I don't really care either way; there's plenty else out there for me to read. Hell, I still need to read Feast for Crows.

Adrenaline
01-07-2011, 12:51 PM
Sports can actually be really interesting to nerdy folk if you look at it from the right angle. I have an NFL playoff bracket on the whiteboard in my cubicle.