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Balrog
06-19-2007, 06:44 AM
Gems:
Final Fantasy Tactics, Shining Force 1 & 2, Front Mission 3, Disgaea 1 & 2

Semi-precious stones:
Saiyuki:Journey West, Hoshigami, Fire Emblem Series, Warsong(Langrisser), Ogre Tactics, Makai Kingdom

Turds:
Suikoden Tactics, Vandal Hearts, Dofus, Rebelstar: Tactical Command, La Pucelle: Tactics, Phantom Brave

TheSL
06-19-2007, 06:50 AM
What about Advance Wars?

I didn't think La Pucelle was that bad, but it was a step back from Disgaea from a design standpoint(mostly because it was released before Disgaea in Japan).

Torgo
06-19-2007, 06:51 AM
Ogre Battle 64.

Dynasty Tactics 2. No seriously. It's actually really friggin' good. Also, for those who don't like the design decisions that Warriors takes, you'll be happy to know the music is much more subdued and traditional, and while it still takes liberties with the story, it's nowhere near as off-the-wall as Dynasty Warriors or Kessen II... especially Kessen II.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 06:54 AM
What about Advance Wars?

I didn't think La Pucelle was that bad, but it was a step back from Disgaea from a design standpoint(mostly because it was released before Disgaea in Japan).

I wouldn't classify Advance Wars as an RPG, it goes in the strategy bin.

Makkara
06-19-2007, 07:20 AM
Turds: [...] Vandal Hearts

Oh no you di'int! Vandal Hearts is one of the best TRPGs ever. Sure, it looks pretty awful and doesn't sound great, (except the lovely ending song by Jadranka Stojaković) but the battles are incredibly well designed. Even the ones where the only objective is to kill all enemies, there's usually some interesting tactical consideration to make. Also: pretty good story.

mr_bungle700
06-19-2007, 08:18 AM
Makkuro is right about VH, though I'll vouch for the soundtrack and especially the sound effects as well.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 08:21 AM
I remember the graphics in VH really turning me off, they looked like bad genesis graphics but in 3D.

reibeatall
06-19-2007, 08:47 AM
Man, I just can't get that into Disgaea. I've got around 4 hours in it, and it's just... not terribly intriguing. I stopped playing it for yet ANOTHER playthrough of FFT. That game is as close to perfection as the genre has ever been.

Torgo
06-19-2007, 09:02 AM
Disgaea's problem lies in some of its design choices. It's a lot less free-form and more focused on level grinding then Tactics. Changing classes restarts characters at level one. Stat carryover aside, that's pretty punishing. The player can't really mix and match classes and abilities in Disgaea, or at least not to the degree you can in Tactics. Once a class is chosen, they're pretty much set on one path that doesn't unless you reincarnate.

Then there's the matter of the insano max levels, which climb into the thousands. And not just on the characters themselves, but also weapons, armor, items, and abilities. While I totally dig NIS for fully tapping the excessive essence of trpgs, the double-edge of that is that the player can never really have any sense of completion. In Tactics, it ends at 99 and a class is mastered simply when you learn its moves. In Disgaea, not only is there the nearly unobtainable character level cap, there's stat bonuses/carryover from reincarnation, plus equipment and abilities as well.

Don't get me wrong, Disgaea's great, but it simply can't compare with the finesse that FFT brought to the genre. The only trpg that has ensnared me so much since is Ogre Battle 64.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 09:15 AM
I agree about FFT. I have to turn off the part of my brain that knows about FFT in order to enjoy other Tactical RPGs. The job/ability system is second to none.

alexb
06-19-2007, 09:21 AM
Rebelstar. What makes that one bad?

shivam
06-19-2007, 09:33 AM
i liked suikoden tactics.

my only problem with disgaea was that the grind to 6000 was ridiculous. i will agree, however, that FFT is pretty much the most elegantly designed game of this genre.

Jakanden
06-19-2007, 09:35 AM
I am not too fond of Tactical RPG's in general. It isn't due to the fact that the genre is terrible, they just aren't my thing. However, I am looking forward to the FFT remake and Jeanne D'Arc. I put about 20 hours into FFT on 3 separate occasions (never have beat it) previously and maybe this time I would finish it.

shivam
06-19-2007, 09:47 AM
i really enjoyed my playtest with janne d'arc. i can't wait for it and D&D tactics.

yay psp!

Jakanden
06-19-2007, 10:01 AM
Jenn Frank had a pretty good blog entry (http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=8204393&publicUserId=5450684) about the PSP recently.

Speaking of the PSP, I am hoping my import of Princess Crown arrives this week.

Coinspinner
06-19-2007, 10:13 AM
After a lot of trial and frustration I came to realize I don't like TRPGs. I just love FFT. I think they really tend to over-complicate these games.

yakkotank
06-19-2007, 10:15 AM
After a lot of trial and frustration I came to realize I don't like TRPGs. I just love FFT. I think they really tend to over-complicate these games.

Seconded!

Although I do enjoy the Fire Emblem games (perhaps because of the similarity to Advance Wars).

tungwene
06-19-2007, 10:22 AM
Vandal HeartsSurely you did not mistake Vandal Hearts for its sequel? Now VH 2, that one was a REAL turd. What about Growlanser? I really enjoyed both II and III and am looking forward to V this summer/fall.

Kirin
06-19-2007, 10:29 AM
Hey, you totally forgot.... umm, crap, what was that one with all the singing and the puppets and you can drop pancakes and rock candy on enemies? It was... different.

Also, is Suiko Tactics that terrible? I've been otrn over whether to try it out some time. The only reason I haven't yet is the fact that it's a spin-off of the weakest entry in the main series.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 10:29 AM
Rebelstar. What makes that one bad?

I really gave Rebelstar a chance but the battles were really slow.

TheSL
06-19-2007, 10:30 AM
Well, if not Advance Wars then how about the Arc the Lad series?

Balrog
06-19-2007, 10:37 AM
Never played Growlanser or Arc the Lad:( Forgot about Gladius which hovers between Precious stones and turd imo.

djSyndrome
06-19-2007, 10:41 AM
Front Mission 3 was excellent. Which made the shit-pile that was FM4 all the more heartbreaking.

Torgo
06-19-2007, 10:44 AM
Hey, you totally forgot.... umm, crap, what was that one with all the singing and the puppets and you can drop pancakes and rock candy on enemies? It was... different.
I do believe you're referring to Rhapsody.

tungwene
06-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Hey, you totally forgot.... umm, crap, what was that one with all the singing and the puppets and you can drop pancakes and rock candy on enemies? It was... different.Rhapsody. Yeah, I have a soft spot for Rhapsody since it was my first tactical RPG. I think it's a great introduction to the genre that eases you in gently but it tends to get slammed for being too easy.

Also, is Suiko Tactics that terrible? I've been otrn over whether to try it out some time. The only reason I haven't yet is the fact that it's a spin-off of the weakest entry in the main series.I think it had a solid battle system but it was one of those games where all the little negative aspects eventually dragged it down. The lackluster plot of IV was one of the biggies and somehow, even though the regular games do this to you, dumping a bunch of the returning characters into your party felt really tacked on. I think it was because they were already bland featureless cannon fodder in IV and throwing them into the middle of your game didn't exactly help them develop any either. I actually would not mind if they kept the spin off franchise going with a more worthy setting. I'd like a Suikoden Tactics set during the First Fire Bringer War. The chapter style of III would be better suited for a tactical RPG.

alexb
06-19-2007, 10:59 AM
Hey, you totally forgot.... umm, crap, what was that one with all the singing and the puppets and you can drop pancakes and rock candy on enemies? It was... different.

Also, is Suiko Tactics that terrible? I've been otrn over whether to try it out some time. The only reason I haven't yet is the fact that it's a spin-off of the weakest entry in the main series.

Suikoden Tactics was shit. Sorry. It just was. Even if you could put aside the terrible voice acting, the unskippable, interminable cutscenes, and the frankly moronic story (a bad guy weapons merchant selling cannons that turn people into land walking fish monsters to other bad guys), it took place in the world of Suikoden IV. If the gameplay was sublime that could all be forgiven, but the game itself was cheap. It was yet another game that was less about tactics and more about grinding in able to be at a high enough level to survive a single hit. It was constantly the case that a wrong move in a sea of flawless ones could wreck a two-hour long battle, because the elemental system made it very easy for enemies to one shot your back ranks from long range with overpowered elemental spells furthered pumped up by the enemy being on a square that shared his elemental affinity. This would be bearable except that characters that lost all of their HP were randomly permanently killed without any chance for revival. Which barred you from being able to recruit other, future characters and kept you from seeing the good ending. It was broken.

Coinspinner
06-19-2007, 11:05 AM
Well, if not Advance Wars then how about the Arc the Lad series?

I'd call it a TRPG. I couldn't make it all the way through the second, but that may have been because I was a completist back then. Jobs sometimes disapeared from the office if you progressed the story too much or did jobs in the wrong order, or whatever else. The thought that I might miss one drove me nuts. That and having to level up a lot of characters, level up their skills, level up individual weapons, catch and level up monsters... it was overwhelming.

Jakanden
06-19-2007, 11:22 AM
After a lot of trial and frustration I came to realize I don't like TRPGs. I just love FFT. I think they really tend to over-complicate these games.

My thoughts exactly which is why I am not a fan for the most part.

I did put Growlanser Generations on my Gamefly Q though (next up as a matter of fact) as I am interested in anything Working Designs did and it is one of the few games of theirs I haven't played.

Makkara
06-19-2007, 11:32 AM
Did anyone else play Vanguard Bandits? You know, that game translated by Working Designs, with wonky character portraits and kickass giant robots? I quite liked the battle system in that game. Especially how you had to spend action points (or whatever they were called) both to attack and to defend yourself or counter. Even the strongest units could be defeated by being swamped by a bunch of weak ones. You really had to watch your formations in that game.

alexb
06-19-2007, 11:35 AM
I have it, but I didn't get very far. Vanguard Bandits is a kind of nonsensical term.

Makkara
06-19-2007, 11:38 AM
Yeah, they might as well have gone with the original name: Epica Stella.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 11:45 AM
Suikoden Tactics was shit.

I thought I was alone on that one. Really, I thought Suikoden Tactics was the most bare bones TRPG ever with a bad elemental damage system that was broken to say the least.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 11:47 AM
Yeah, they might as well have gone with the original name: Epica Stella.

Is that related to Stella Deus: The Gate of Eternity? Another TRPG I never played...

Meditative_Zebra
06-19-2007, 12:01 PM
I love Disgaea, but I haven't played it years. Mostly because with games like Disgaea (or FFT) if can't make a large time investment the game's story and battle system are really hard to get into. Which is why I like a game like Vandal Hearts; it's simple in plot but with battles that are interesting and challenging enough to keep you on your toes.

I love me an epic 2-hour battle every now and then but sometimes I need a 15 minute battle so I can play the game and still have a life.

alexb
06-19-2007, 12:10 PM
Is that related to Stella Deus: The Gate of Eternity? Another TRPG I never played...

No, but Stella Deus is related to Hoshigami. They both mean Star God.

philliam
06-19-2007, 12:13 PM
I love Disgaea, but I haven't played it years. Mostly because with games like Disgaea (or FFT) if can't make a large time investment the game's story and battle system are really hard to get into.

Yeah, this is the same reason I stopped playing those two games. I have bit of a short attention span and cannot play games for a long stretch of time like I used. GOD I'M OLD.

But, it doesn't mean I didn't love playing them. Final Fantasy Tactics is one of the best games I've played.

Meditative_Zebra
06-19-2007, 12:14 PM
So I've got a handful of TRPGs and strategy games I've never gotten around to playing and I want to consult the enlightened masses of Talking Time to see which one I should be playing.

Tactics Ogre (PSX)
Tactics Ogre: Knights of Lodis
Ogre Battle (PSX or SNES)
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
Kingdom Under Fire
Dai Senryaku VII

So should I be playing one of those games or should I just reinstall Starcraft like everyone else is doing?

alexb
06-19-2007, 12:18 PM
I happened on a complete copy of Tactics Ogre at a Rhino Games last year. I'd been passively looking for years, so I was pretty excited. But then it turns out that the game runs like molasses. It would be a ton of fun if it ran at about twice the speed it does.

Coinspinner
06-19-2007, 12:20 PM
FFTA isn't worth it. There a lot of portable TRPGs now.

Balrog
06-19-2007, 12:22 PM
So I've got a handful of TRPGs and strategy games I've never gotten around to playing and I want to consult the enlightened masses of Talking Time to see which one I should be playing.

Tactics Ogre (PSX)
Tactics Ogre: Knights of Lodis
Ogre Battle (PSX or SNES)
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
Kingdom Under Fire
Dai Senryaku VII

So should I be playing one of those games or should I just reinstall Starcraft like everyone else is doing?

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance would get my vote. It's not as good as FFT but it has its charm.

SkywardShadow
06-19-2007, 03:26 PM
So I've got a handful of TRPGs and strategy games I've never gotten around to playing and I want to consult the enlightened masses of Talking Time to see which one I should be playing.

Tactics Ogre (PSX)
Tactics Ogre: Knights of Lodis
Ogre Battle (PSX or SNES)
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance
Kingdom Under Fire
Dai Senryaku VII

So should I be playing one of those games or should I just reinstall Starcraft like everyone else is doing?

I'm a TRPG/SRPG nut, and enjoy all of those games, but I'm especially a huge Ogre Battle fanatic, so that gets my vote. The PSX version is superior, especially when it comes to the much needed buried treasures to access special levels/classes.

I'm overjoyed to see Growlanser get a lot of mentions in this thread. GG is another favorite of mine.

I'd recommend a few other games to everyone... including Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (Gamecube), Dynasty Tactics 2 (PS2, already mentioned but I wanted to support the recommendation), and Front Mission 4 (PS2, 3 is the best, but 4 is worth playing for any fans, IMO).

There are also fan translations of many SNES-era TRPGs that were never released in English. I enjoyed playing Front Mission quite a bit, and am playing Der Langrisser right now. Monstania, Tenchi Muyo, and Super Robot Wars also come to mind.

Jeanie
06-19-2007, 03:41 PM
I played Growlancer Generations while I was in Iraq. I enjoyed it, but I could never get Charlone to return my affections. However the other girl (I forget her name) liked me.

Also I really enjoyed Arc the Lad Collection, the whole carry the save over thing was a great idea.

Crazy Larry
06-19-2007, 03:41 PM
I've always been partial to Kartia, an older game for the PS. The gameplay itself isn't too amazing, although it had some good ideas, but the story was amazing.

Sanagi
06-19-2007, 03:45 PM
Rebelstar is a game that I played through wishing it was better than it was. For those who haven't heard of it, it's a tactics-style rendition of a squad-based shooter on the GBA. You have a group of soldiers whom you outfit with various guns and devices, and lead through stealth combat situations. There's enjoyment to be had with it, but it's clunky and frustrating more often than not. It also has ridiculous loading times considering that the graphics are completely bland and repetitive. It's the sort of flawed game that you could imagine having a really good sequel.

Final Fantasy Tactics Advance may not be the equal of the original game, but it's still the next best thing and deserves credit for that.

I'm not sure if I'd put Ogre Battle 64 in the same category as these other games but it's still a thing of beauty. If it had some kind of random battle generator I'd probably still be playing it.

Meg
06-19-2007, 04:16 PM
So... no one else likes Phantom Brave? Is it really that bad of a game? Sure, its voice acting and story is average-to-forgettable (Marona's voice hurts my ears), but I thought the battles were pretty interesting. I liked that you had to plan when to bring each character onto the board. I remember going from completely finishing Phantom Brave to Makai Kingdom and being underwhelmed.

I'm not saying PB's perfect, though-- I started to replay it recently, but I had to give up when I remembered how much fusing you need to do for characters and weapons. The fact that the dungeon creation system is so random, despite titles being so useful, is annoying. And, the fact that enemies can throw your characters and their weapons out of bounds never fails to screw up the whole battle. Oh well.

Maggie
06-19-2007, 04:20 PM
Darn, guess I'm not the first person to mention Kartia. I have some fond memories of that one.

Potato
06-19-2007, 04:39 PM
Darn, guess I'm not the first person to mention Kartia. I have some fond memories of that one.Jumping on the Kartia bandwagon. I've heard a lot of negative things about it over the years, but I still think it's fun.

I'd also like to add a turd to the pile: Onimusha Tactics. "I like assorted tactics and Onimusha wasn't awful, maybe this could work."

Viewtiful
06-19-2007, 05:03 PM
I recently got the chance to play Earth Light 2 for Super Famicom while doing some research about the Military Madness series.

It plays similarly to MM, with the same hexagonal turn-based action, but your units gain experience that they keep throughout battles, and there are several different attacks each unit can do (ie, melee/ranged).

MarsDragon
06-19-2007, 05:24 PM
So... no one else likes Phantom Brave? Is it really that bad of a game?

I was just coming to say that. I too like Phantom Brave quite a bit, more than Makai Kingdom and Disgaea 1. Sure it has it's flaws, but I really like the lack of grid-based movement, and I loved abusing the movement properties of the land. And I really liked how you had to pick and chose when and where to summon up your Phantoms. The story might not be COMEDY like the rest of N1's stuff, but it never bothered me that much.

Makai Kingdom, while also having the gridless movement I love, felt a little too...tacked together. Like it was a rush job they decided to squeeze out before Disgaea 2. If they'd polished it up a little, it could've been a lot better. Make it so you can't stack units on top of each other in battle as easily or get past walls of units so tanks can actually be useful instead of everything slipping past to get at your squishy mages (PB had this problem too, but I give it a pass for being the first game with the system. They definitely should've fixed it for MK, though.) Plus make the systems and the menus a little easier to work with. That would be great.

I never got the appeal of Disgaea as much as other people, maybe because I got into it late, but it felt really archaic and irritating to play. And I spent hours and hours making Flonne into a super-mage only to have them steal her for the final battle so I had to spend hours and hours training up new ones. I never quite forgave them for that. It's an okay game, but I'd much rather play Disgaea 2 now, which fixes most of my problems with the first one. Now if they'd only make a Phantom Brave 2....

I also really like the Super Robot Wars series (I finally beat OG2 a little while ago, god I hate the final boss), but I can't really think of anything to say about it. It's awesome and please let Atlus bring over Original Generations?

I got Yggdra Union at Christmas just like SRW:OG2, but after playing a few battle with it it felt less "hard" and more "incredibly broken". I want to love it, but not enough for force myself to play it.

Sprite
06-19-2007, 05:44 PM
Phantom Brave is my favorite NISA game, and the only one where I delved into post-game content. I love it mostly for how different it is from other TRPGs. As was mentioned before, the main strategy is knowing when to bring out the big guns, and when to use your weaker characters. I love the game because you actually need to make use of your whole army so the vast number of character classes don't go unnoticed. Compare this to Disgaea (which I still love) where Laharl can kill off half the map himself.

The Fusion system was confusing for a little while, but once you figured it out you could make any kind of character you wanted without having to transmigrate over and over.

The game is flawed, though, and I'd be interested to see why the original post listed it as a turd. My main complaints revolve around the random dungeons. They were incredibly fun once you got the one you want, but forcing the player to reroll so many times to get a worthwile dungeon was infuriating. Also, once you figured out how to abuse the title system and power-level your characters (and farm massive amounts of mana) you can pretty much break the game. I had to decide not to power-level until I'd finished the main game, because otherwise it'd be too easy. Of course, I actually enjoyed these abuses in the post-game, when you need to level up hundreds of times just to beat the next hidden boss.

Anyway, I really love Phantom Brave but I think I can see why others would hate it.

Squall
06-19-2007, 05:47 PM
Dynasty Tactics was cool for the quick demo I played of it.
And Vandal Hearts was awesome until FFT came out.
I'm stil upset my friend lost the GBA Tactics Ogre.

Red Hedgehog
06-19-2007, 06:01 PM
I would say that I love this genre, but I think I've only played three games in it.

I thought Final Fantasy Tactics Advance was good.

I thought Fire Emblem (GBA, the first one) was really good.

I just couldn't get into Disgaea. It was pretty overwhelming with all the shit to do. It required lots of random battles that didn't give much reward. It was very opaque as to what led to what. A friend has been borrowing for over a year and once I finally get it back from him, I'll give it another try. I'm not holding my breath for enjoying it the second time.

Torgo
06-19-2007, 07:16 PM
Tactics Advance is good. It just wasn't Tactics. Also the judges. (Because tying a player's hands is sooo much better then balancing the game).

Squall
06-19-2007, 08:58 PM
There also wasn't much actual Tactics in Tactics Advance.
It was really more of a grid-based Final Fantasy sans-story.

tungwene
06-19-2007, 09:16 PM
I'm probably in the minority here but I haven't enjoyed any of the NISA tactical RPGs. They take way too much grinding imo, I'm not enamored with the games' humor, and I haven't finished a single one of them to date. Something about the whole style of their games just rubs me the wrong way. I couldn't be more thrilled by the prospect of Jeanne d'Arc, Hoshigami Remix, FFT: Lion's War, and I guess Revenant Wings because it seems like the genre was just dominated by NISA titles this past generation and I'm finally relieved to see more titles not made by NIS once again.

Sanagi
06-19-2007, 10:08 PM
I'm glad to hear some criticism of Disgaea because I passed on it after reading up a bit about its gameplay. It seemed like whenever I'd hear about it people were singing its praises, but I suspect it wouldn't have enough customization for my tastes.

Eusis
06-19-2007, 10:23 PM
What bugs me the most with most of these games is that they just feel too slow. I'll give FFT another shot, all this talk about it has made me want to play it again, but the reason I really liked Disgaea and actually beat it, unlike any other TRPG I played was because the battles felt fun and fast. I guess when it comes to games I have ADD, as RPG battles tend to frustrate me if they're frequently longer than a minute or two.

I usually do enjoy them enough to get through a significant portion of the game, just not enough to actually beat them.

Squall
06-19-2007, 10:26 PM
I've only played Disgaea, but I found it to be unbelieavably brilliant. But yeah, I have zero desire to play it. The hope of reaching level 10000 doesn't inspire me with motivation.

Coinspinner
06-20-2007, 11:44 AM
Hmm, I actually found Disgaea to be really slow. Line up all your guys, have one guy attack, execute combo, unmove the leftovers, repeat till you're out of turns. Then the enemy finally gets to move. I didn't like that battle system at all.

TheSL
06-20-2007, 12:08 PM
That GBA Zone of the Enders tactical RPG was pretty terrible. It was like Front Mission with a goofy aiming mini-game attached to it battle-wise, but was in reality 90% codec-style story.

jovewolf
06-20-2007, 04:39 PM
That GBA Zone of the Enders tactical RPG was pretty terrible. It was like Front Mission with a goofy aiming mini-game attached to it battle-wise, but was in reality 90% codec-style story.

So it was like a GBA version of Ring of Red almost? Didn't expect that. Could've interested me if I ever found it. Then again I came by my copy of RoR for free, and while I do find it interesting, I also find it quite frustrating. And quite slow.

Anyway, speaking of GBA TRPGs, I found the Super Robot Taisen OG games to be quite fun and engaging. The main problem with them would probably be that they had too many set-piece battles where you have something show up completely unexpectedly on the other side of the map with no way to truely defend yourself. It didn't happen too often, but when it did, man it was frustrating.

Sprite
06-20-2007, 08:17 PM
Has anyone else here played Faselei for Neo Geo Pocket Color? A pretty fun TRPG where you programmed your robots. Got impossible at the end though.

SkywardShadow
06-21-2007, 03:29 PM
Ah, Faselei, the only game I kept my NGPC for. I never did play to the end, and I ended up giving both to a collector friend. I'm rather surprised to see someone else mention it.

reibeatall
06-21-2007, 08:47 PM
Ninjabee just released Band of Bugs onto the XBLA yesterday. It's no FFT, but a new TRPG for 10 bucks isn't bad.

Torgo
06-21-2007, 08:52 PM
But is it any good?

reibeatall
06-21-2007, 08:57 PM
It's no Final Fantasy Tactics, but it's definately playable. I'll spend more time with it and form a better opinion. So far, it's better than some games I've paid full price for.

jovewolf
06-21-2007, 09:10 PM
I have no idea what Band of Bugs is about, but based on the name my brain forces it to be associated with Sierra's Battle (http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i171/jovewolf/batbugs4.png) Bugs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Bugs).

This isn't neccessarily a bad thing.

I also completely forgot that the Battle Bugs interface primarily consisted of a broken Gameboy and a Sony portable TV.

Alex
06-22-2007, 08:26 PM
I've enjoyed every Front Mission that I've played, and I'm really looking forward to the DS remake of the first.

Has anyone played Der Langrisser?

Bahamut Lagoon is pretty nice.

blindblue
06-23-2007, 07:58 AM
An incredibly underappreciated hex-based TRPG is Brigandine: The Legend of Forsena for the PSX.

An ambitious general stages a coup and takes over the most powerful nation on the continent of Forsena, plunging the entire region into chaos and pitting six countries against each other. You pick a ruler: Faulkner, the evil general who has powerful knights but can't recruit many new ones, Lance, the weak exiled prince who starts with a giant red lizard for a bodyguard, Cai, the carefree mage with a creepy relationship with his sister, Lyonesse, the reluctant young queen of a deeply religious country, Vaynard, the wise and ruthless Nordic lord, or my favorite, Dryst, the lunatic tyrant with clowns and killer dolls for knights. Then you fight across the continent, killing off everyone else and taking their lands.

The fun part of Brigandine is that the main attackers aren't your knights, they're your monsters. You summon monsters using mana derived from how many cities your country owns, and each knight can hold a certain number of monsters in his/her group based on how much Rune Power they have. As your knights level up, so do your monsters, and they can all upgrade into different classes.

Plus, you can capture your enemies' monsters and take them for your own. It's perversely satisfying to fight a knight who loves dragons, knock them out and steal their Fafnir, then use it in the following battle to take their capital city and crush their puny little country.

Unfortunately, the game has a really weak story so it's all about the battles. People should try it out regardless, it's great fun.

Mightyblue
06-23-2007, 09:15 AM
I'm a tactics nerd, so this is home to me, I guess.

The SRW or SRT series is gold for giant robot nerds, and is a fairly decent, yet simple series. Those not opposed to emulating should be able to find a few of the games fan-translated out there.

Growlanser is awesome, though I think I liked II a bit better than III for some reason, mostly because I'm damn tired of silent heroes.

For Shining Force fans, there are the GG games, and the remake/complilation of the first two GG games and an extra chapter: Shining Force CD. You can also find a translation of the third and un-ported GG gaiden game somewheres on the Internet. There's also Shining Force III, and some nice people out on the net completely translated and ported the Premium colllection for burning and use on your own US Saturns, though I haven't tried that myself, lacking a Saturn.

Cyber Knight I and II (Fan-translated SNES games) are Sci-Fi entries into the genre that are a little different from usual, but still fun. You'll need a guide or a lot of time on your hands to find your way through I though.

Madara (Fan-tl NES game) is kind of a tactics game, though I'll reserve judgment on that one, and it's not completely ugly and broken gameplay wise either.

And then there's Hiouden (Fan-tl SNES), which is more in the Ogre Battle vein and in the ass-kicking vein. A tad difficult to get into, but still fun.

TheSL
06-23-2007, 09:46 AM
There's also Shining Force III, and some nice people out on the net completely translated and ported the Premium colllection for burning and use on your own US Saturns, though I haven't tried that myself, lacking a Saturn.

From what I've seen its prohibitively difficult to get any copied games to run on a Saturn and emulation is kind of iffy without a super fast computer.

SkywardShadow
06-23-2007, 10:11 AM
Re: Brigandine - I love this game, and wasted much time on it. There was a "Grand Edition" released in Japan, which adds stuff to the game, removed the horrid 3D battles, added 2D animation, balanced the classes a bit, and added to the story.

Mightyblue made some great recommendations there.

Balrog
06-27-2007, 09:31 AM
Is Ultima:Exodus considered a Tactical RPG? If it does it gets precious stone status in my book for killer music and interesting character design. Paladins are all female and have heart-shaped shields, that makes sense.

Calorie Mate
06-27-2007, 09:37 AM
I have never played a tactical RPG, ever. Lately, though, I've been intrigued by the concept.

Balrog
06-27-2007, 09:39 AM
I have never played a tactical RPG, ever. Lately, though, I've been intrigued by the concept.

You're on notice until you finish Final Fantasy Tactics.

MechaX
06-27-2007, 09:40 AM
Front Mission 5 deserves a 'gem' nomination for not only bringing about everything that was good with the other Front Mission games and correcting those problems, but it also managed to save the FM franchise from the bore-fest that was Front Mission 4.

Too bad Front Mission 5 will never see the light of day outside of the Country of the Rising Sun because of Front Mission 4...

Alex
06-27-2007, 09:17 PM
Has anyone played Hoshigami Remix yet?

Squall
06-27-2007, 09:22 PM
The problem with Front Mission 4 is that it got unbearably hard in a couple spots. And normally I'm good with turn-based strategy.

Mightyblue
06-27-2007, 09:24 PM
Has anyone played Hoshigami Remix yet?Been looking for it, but I haven't found any copies yet. That was one of the few games I wanted to get at the end of the PS1 era, but couldn't.

tungwene
06-27-2007, 09:38 PM
Has anyone played Hoshigami Remix yet?My copy was supposed to arrive today but it didn't. I'll try calling the store again tomorrow.

reibeatall
06-27-2007, 09:48 PM
My copy was supposed to arrive today but it didn't. I'll try calling the store again tomorrow.

Yeah, my store didn't get it today, and it was kinda weird. I was looking forward to playing it.

Merus
06-28-2007, 01:40 AM
Seeing as I haven't been a pariah today:

I haven't played Tactics either. (I live in "Europe"*, we never got it, and I was too far up the ass of the N64 at the time.) How cruel, in the Plotkin sense (http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Cruelty_scale), is it? It's a Square game, so I assume that you can miss portions of the game and permanently screw up sidequests, but is that relatively restrained or is it just as bad as the regular Final Fantasy games? (I no longer have any patience for cruel games - I got too much to play as it is, and I've been spoiled by games that recognise that difficulty and cruelty are two different things and make the game as difficult as they can manage while avoiding cruelty as much as possible.)

*I bet you're wondering about those quotemarks. I live in Australia. We're considered part of Europe by game companies (Blizzard excepted). This infuriates me.

MarsDragon
06-28-2007, 04:21 AM
There aren't that many secrets in the game. There are only two real sidequests, and I don't think either of them ever permenantly run out. (the three secret characters all count as one sidequest, since all the events pretty much lead into each other) It is possible to get into an unescapable series of battles, but this can be solved by just making a seperate save slot whenever the game asks you if you want to save. If you don't know this the game counts as "Tough" on your scale, but if you do it's pretty Merciful.

If all else fails the Tactics nerds on GameFAQs have been playing the game pretty much non-stop for nine years now and can get you out of dang near any scrape. It's POSSIBLE to get stuck, one battle in paticular comes to mind, but as long as you have a seperate save and a reletively decent build it's also possible to get out.

Coinspinner
06-28-2007, 10:31 AM
Cruel: can get stuck by doing something which isn't obviously irrevocable (even after the act).

Solving that...

Save in a separate slot any time the game asks if you'd like to save. The most difficult story battles are fought in castles.

The rest are secrets and bonuses unnecessary for finishing the game.

Finding a Phoenix Down with Move-Find Item indicates a failure. There is no second chance, reset. Lower brave means a higher chance of success.

You can Move-Find unique items at Nelveska Temple but you only fight one battle there.

You have one chance to steal the Genji items. (Limberry Castle)

You have two chances to learn (the weak spell) Ultima. (Limberry Castle)

Recruit Mustadio and do not dismiss him. He's required for a long chain of sidequests.

Merus
06-28-2007, 11:00 AM
Yeah, most Square games at least have the decency to not stop you from finishing the game, but then they undo that by making sidequests and secrets somewhat easy to lose. It is still frustrating! (Thanks, coinspinner: I'll know what to keep an eye out for.)

thomp538
06-28-2007, 11:13 AM
Is it just me, or is FFT extremely difficult?

Mightyblue
06-28-2007, 12:45 PM
FFT is one of those games where you can make it very hard or very easy for yourself depending on how you develop your characters. Of course, when your major party members are all in the nineties with several classes mastered, the game isn't even close to challenging then.

djSyndrome
06-28-2007, 12:53 PM
Hoshigami Remix is getting some craptacular reviews (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ds/hoshigamiremix?q=Hoshigami).

As a side note, I decided to ignore you all and buy Disgaea 2.

Mightyblue
06-28-2007, 12:59 PM
So, apparently people have forgotten the whole ten years of gaming between '85 and '95 or so, when it was fair game to kick people in the balls repeatedly with insanely hard games.

Do people not relish a challenge anymore?

thomp538
06-28-2007, 12:59 PM
FFT is one of those games where you can make it very hard or very easy for yourself depending on how you develop your characters. Of course, when your major party members are all in the nineties with several classes mastered, the game isn't even close to challenging then.
Yeah, but getting there man. What classes should I go with?

TheSL
06-28-2007, 01:00 PM
Hoshigami Remix is getting some craptacular reviews (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/ds/hoshigamiremix?q=Hoshigami).

If its anything like its original release, it deserves every one of them. That game almost made we swear off the entire genre.

Crazy Larry
06-28-2007, 02:00 PM
I remember being amazing hyped up about Hoshigami when it was originally coming out, and then never actually playing it. I might have to pick this up just on principle.

djSyndrome
06-28-2007, 02:14 PM
I remember being amazing hyped up about Hoshigami when it was originally coming out, and then never actually playing it. I might have to pick this up just on principle.

Why don't you send me the thirty bucks and punch yourself in the face instead? The end result will be exactly the same.

Crazy Larry
06-28-2007, 02:18 PM
Why don't you send me the thirty bucks and punch yourself in the face instead? The end result will be exactly the same.I'm too poor to afford that.

MarsDragon
06-28-2007, 02:45 PM
Yeah, but getting there man. What classes should I go with?

If this is a serious question, white mage/black mage/monk/thief is pretty good. Geomancers are awesome. Ninja and Math Skill are incredibly broken. (A ninja with math skill wouldn't be, but eh) I've always had a soft spot for dragoons, and summoning is dang powerful. Those are the major ones, at least.

I mean, people have beaten the game using only one particular class for pretty much every class. (and I hang out with someone who does this, so maybe my idea of FFT's difficulty is a little unbalanced...) And if you're just going to pick and chose, most classes have at least one awesome skill in them you can just pick up, like Blade Grasp or Counter. Grab Accumulate and it's easy to power-level, so you can experiment freely. It's not that bad.

thomp538
06-28-2007, 02:48 PM
If this is a serious question, white mage/black mage/monk/thief is pretty good. Geomancers are awesome. Ninja and Math Skill are incredibly broken. (A ninja with math skill wouldn't be, but eh) I've always had a soft spot for dragoons, and summoning is dang powerful. Those are the major ones, at least.

I mean, people have beaten the game using only one particular class for pretty much every class. (and I hang out with someone who does this, so maybe my idea of FFT's difficulty is a little unbalanced...) And if you're just going to pick and chose, most classes have at least one awesome skill in them you can just pick up, like Blade Grasp or Counter. Grab Accumulate and it's easy to power-level, so you can experiment freely. It's not that bad.
Totally serious. I have heard about accumulate and math skill.

Crazy Larry
06-28-2007, 02:54 PM
If this is a serious question, white mage/black mage/monk/thief is pretty good. Geomancers are awesome. Ninja and Math Skill are incredibly broken. (A ninja with math skill wouldn't be, but eh) I've always had a soft spot for dragoons, and summoning is dang powerful. Those are the major ones, at least.

I mean, people have beaten the game using only one particular class for pretty much every class. (and I hang out with someone who does this, so maybe my idea of FFT's difficulty is a little unbalanced...) And if you're just going to pick and chose, most classes have at least one awesome skill in them you can just pick up, like Blade Grasp or Counter. Grab Accumulate and it's easy to power-level, so you can experiment freely. It's not that bad.Seriously, just experiment and have fun. Even without knowing the ins and outs of the job system FFT still isn't all that difficult. Just take some time in Act I or early in Act II to play around in random battles and try out different things. The most fun I ever had with FFT was a playthrough where I screwed around with sub-optimal builds that nevertheless strong enough to get me through most battles without putting too much actual thought into my tactics. My favorite character ever was an Archer with the Knight Classes' Break Skills and MP Switch. Nothing you'd ever see recommended for a power playthrough, but it was far more fun than wining every battle in 10 seconds with a group of Ninja/Calculators.

thomp538
06-28-2007, 02:56 PM
I'm just wondering what I should experiment with. Obviously I'm not going to get enough JP to get every ability, and some of the abilities seem useless. I am just wondering what makes good mixes, monk with knight skills and so forth...

Crazy Larry
06-28-2007, 03:01 PM
I'm just wondering what I should experiment with. Obviously I'm not going to get enough JP to get every ability, and some of the abilities seem useless. I am just wondering what makes good mixes, monk with knight skills and so forth...That really depends on you though. Like I said, my favorite job combinations were the ones that aren't necessarily the most powerful, but have unique abilities that you can dick around with. If you're just looking for the most powerful build you should probably just make a group of five Ninjas with Math Skill, Blade Grasp, and access to all magic.

reibeatall
06-28-2007, 03:24 PM
I just purchased Hoshigami Remix, but I haven't opened it. Now I'm starting to get afraid.

Balrog
06-28-2007, 03:27 PM
I'm into rare items so Secret Hunt and all the steal abilities are a must for at least one character. I generally have a Mediator with Steal abilities and at least three characters with Secret Hunt. Get some enemies in your party, let 'em breed and poach their offspring with Secret Hunt.

Potato
06-28-2007, 03:48 PM
Yeah, but getting there man. What classes should I go with?Knights with guns! Oracle monks!

Sanagi
06-28-2007, 11:05 PM
Back when I was in my FFT-obsessive phase, I would design a team on paper and then build them on the Mandalia plains. For instance, here was a rough concept:

1. Mime
2. Mime
3. Dancer
4. Bard
5. Samurai

Why the samurai? Their attacks don't care what direction you're facing, which is an issue with mimes. Also, mimes can't break swords, just like they don't actually use items. Punch Art was the main backup ability, as Chakra works very nicely with mimes, and Earth Slash turns into something resembling X-Strike.

The only problem with this team was the fact that battles would take a long time due to all the dancing and singing going on. But playing with mimes is a lot of fun due to the consideration that has to go into each action you make - "Oops, my mime just stabbed me in the back..." - just don't take the coward's way out and pair them with Math Skill users.

Coinspinner
06-29-2007, 12:36 AM
I've played FFT so many times I only know how to make the game very very easy or very very hard. And really, a huge part of the fun is discovering good combos yourself. But a hint... Geomancer. It's my favorite class, ever. It works with either gender, both as fighters and as magic launching platforms. And Ramza is their God, being of both genders at once (statwise.) Well, Cid could do it better but he's Cid.

Basic tips: Everybody learns Gained JP UP. Boys are fighters, and magic is for girls with high faith. Everybody benefits from high brave except the slave you send to Move-Find Item. When deciding who will be the healer make sure his/her zodiac sign is not incompatible with Ramza.


1. Mime
2. Mime
3. Dancer
4. Bard
5. Samurai

Mmm, hot.

MarsDragon
06-29-2007, 01:41 AM
Man, all this talk makes me want to get out my Castlevania-themed FFT game. I think I at least had Dracula mostly to where he wanted to be.

Damnit, I need to play games I haven't beaten already this summer!

Spikey
06-29-2007, 04:34 AM
The best part of Vandal Hearts was the over the top blood spray whenever you killed anything. Even Skeletons.

tungwene
06-29-2007, 06:22 AM
It makes me happy to hear so many others like to use Geomancers. They're my favorite class.

Balrog
06-29-2007, 06:58 AM
The Geomancer's 'Counter Flood' is one the most underrated abilities. Lets you counter magic and physical attacks and doesn't expend MP.

Also, Blood Sword and Chantage ftw.

Coinspinner
06-29-2007, 11:30 AM
Counter Flood can work against you because it's an area effect. I once petrified two of my own units with Counter Flood.

Torgo
06-29-2007, 12:12 PM
I'm no expert at the game and its been years since I touched it, but...

Monk - My favorite class, and probably the most self-sustaining job in the game. This dude can heal himself and others, cure status ailments, revive, and deal good damage in melee and at range. Give him the Two Swords ability for extra fisticuff fun.

Mediator - I love Mediators... but they're awful. Except for Invite, you can find comparable skills in different classes with much higher success rates. To top it off, you have to have an extra ability equipped to even use Word Skill abilities outside of the class. It's not all a wash though: They can equip guns and they have the ability that allows their use outside of Chemist and Mediator (aptly named 'Equip Gun'). Tame certainly can make your life easier in monster battles. Basically though, you're only going to want one of these guys if you're going for a Bard, want a monster party, or you're me and insist on having one. (Good luck with that monster party).

thomp538
06-29-2007, 12:19 PM
The thing about Monks is they are SOOO magic-weak.

TheSL
06-29-2007, 12:20 PM
Mediator - I love Mediators... but they're awful. Except for Invite, you can find comparable skills in different classes with much higher success rates. To top it off, you have to have an extra ability equipped to even use Word Skill abilities outside of the class. It's not all a wash though: They can equip guns and they have the ability that allows their use outside of Chemist and Mediator (aptly named 'Equip Gun'). Tame certainly can make your life easier in monster battles. Basically though, you're only going to want one of these guys if you're going for a Bard, want a monster party, or you're me and insist on having one. (Good luck with that monster party).

I always try to get one as early as possible just for the equip gun to combo with the break skill and ruin people's equipment at a distance.

Potato
06-29-2007, 01:58 PM
I always try to get one as early as possible just for the equip gun to combo with the break skill and ruin people's equipment at a distance.This is what I'm saying, Knights with guns. FFT is a magical, broken, awesome game.

shivam
06-29-2007, 02:09 PM
i don't like the break skill. yes, i can see its usefulness? but everytime i break something, it kills me that i couldnt steal it.

Torgo
06-29-2007, 03:34 PM
Yeah... kinda gotta come down with shivam. I can't recall the exact numbers, but the success rates of breaking equipment seem counter productive as opposed to just attacking them or trying to steal and resell for cash. (Shield Break aside, perhaps).

Gotta love the status breaks though.

Sanagi
06-29-2007, 03:46 PM
Going through the game trying to steal all the rare items works pretty well as a kind of second quest. Fun and challenging.

reibeatall
06-29-2007, 04:02 PM
Am I a bad person if I never really messed with Stealing or Poaching?

Also, do you guys usually keep the generic characters, or do you use the story characters? I ALWAYS use story characters. Ramza as a Ninja/Samurai, Agrias as a Holy Knight/whatever I'm in the mood for, Mustadio mostly as an Engineer/mage, and then whatever other people I happen to have.

shivam
06-29-2007, 04:03 PM
i came to love my generic characters. with the main ones i always felt pressure to keep their core class, but the generics, like my black mage Harry, or my master monk Bean, or the greatest ninja samurai ever, Strawberry, really captured my heart.

reibeatall
06-29-2007, 04:06 PM
Yeah, but most of their core classes kicked ass, and they were worth it.

Except for Heaven and Hell Knight. I hate Rafa and Malak. SO much.

Torgo
06-29-2007, 04:08 PM
Oh criminy. For all of FFT's awesomeness, it's one glaring error was having only sixteen character slots and have... what was it, fourteen of them taken up by plot and unique characters? BOOOO. I love my generic characters, but it always tore me up a bit to throw away unique characters too... even though Rafa and Malak are mostly useless.

gamin
06-29-2007, 04:12 PM
That's why when the game asks Malak and Rafa to Join Up, I respectfully decline.

Coinspinner
06-29-2007, 08:46 PM
The thing about Monks is they are SOOO magic-weak.

Eh? There's nothing particular to them that would make them weak to magic.

Am I a bad person if I never really messed with Stealing or Poaching?

Also, do you guys usually keep the generic characters, or do you use the story characters? I ALWAYS use story characters. Ramza as a Ninja/Samurai, Agrias as a Holy Knight/whatever I'm in the mood for, Mustadio mostly as an Engineer/mage, and then whatever other people I happen to have.

I usually don't steal anything but the Genji stuff and don't poach for anything but ribbons and rubber suits. (Invite > Steal :p)

I used Mustadio, Beowulf, and Orlandu my first time through. Afterwards it was always generics with Rafa as the Move-Find slave. I think on my last playthrough I tried using Agrias and Meliadoul, since I'd never found them very useful before, and then tried to turn Reis into the Ultimate Mage, which I never finished.

Sanagi
06-30-2007, 02:26 AM
Am I a bad person if I never really messed with Stealing or Poaching?

Also, do you guys usually keep the generic characters, or do you use the story characters? I ALWAYS use story characters. Ramza as a Ninja/Samurai, Agrias as a Holy Knight/whatever I'm in the mood for, Mustadio mostly as an Engineer/mage, and then whatever other people I happen to have.
Generics, because they can be named and change their appearance. Besides, the brokenness of swordskills gets old after a while.

Oh criminy. For all of FFT's awesomeness, it's one glaring error was having only sixteen character slots and have... what was it, fourteen of them taken up by plot and unique characters? BOOOO. I love my generic characters, but it always tore me up a bit to throw away unique characters too... even though Rafa and Malak are mostly useless.
Ten unique human characters, two unique monsters(Byblos and Worker 8). And if you want to poach some rare items, you need spaces for monster breeding, too. This is one thing FFTA definitely improved on - it had, IIRC, 24 spaces. No naming your characters, though, insert sad face here.

thomp538
06-30-2007, 08:04 AM
Eh? There's nothing particular to them that would make them weak to magic.



I usually don't steal anything but the Genji stuff and don't poach for anything but ribbons and rubber suits. (Invite > Steal :p)

I used Mustadio, Beowulf, and Orlandu my first time through. Afterwards it was always generics with Rafa as the Move-Find slave. I think on my last playthrough I tried using Agrias and Meliadoul, since I'd never found them very useful before, and then tried to turn Reis into the Ultimate Mage, which I never finished.
Hmm, seems to me that magic hits them hard

Torgo
06-30-2007, 08:28 AM
Do the characters you've had use it have high Faith? That, compounded with the Monk's lack of armor, definitely could create the impression that they don't take magic damage well.

Mr. Sensible
06-30-2007, 02:55 PM
Since we're talking FFT and I just scored a copy last week...

After fucking around for about 10 hours I made it to chapter 2 and Gaf is kicking my ass at the Execution Site. Now I'm kinda thinking of "repurposing" a couple of my peeps since I have a better understanding of the stats and what they affect. Here's my question: is it fairly easy to bring a character up to snuff in a totally different class (i.e., Monk instead of Wizard) without hours of grinding? Or should I just scrap this playthrough and start over now that I know what I'm doing?

I am silly and lazy, I know.

Coinspinner
06-30-2007, 07:00 PM
Lovely thing about FFT... because the stats are small and stay small it takes a lot of leveling to really sway your character towards certain stats. It places emphasis on their abilities instead. Gaining 20 levels as a wizard versus 20 as a monk is about half a point difference in attack (I did the math ;_;) so he'd just be gaining points a few levels later than the other guy.

A monk's other main stat is Brave. Brave requires insane grinding to raise so I don't recommend going monk without 60+ Brave.

Mr. Sensible
06-30-2007, 07:17 PM
Cool, thanks. The more play it, the more I love this game.

Alastor
06-30-2007, 07:34 PM
The execution site gave me trouble for a while, because you're vastly outnumbered. Put all of your manpower into taking down Gaf (it helps that you don't need to bring him down to 0 hp), and after that it becomes easier (though still an uphill battle). Lancers became one of my favorite jobs for all of chapter 2, they saved me countless times.

Torgo
06-30-2007, 08:00 PM
Tips for the execution site.

- Have an able Thief. Gaffy is hefting a Blood Sword, and it's one of the only times in the game you can get one (I can't remember if it's a late game poach). Of course, if you're not going to be using any classes or builds that can make use of it, I suppose you can just pass it on by and break it, gimping the Gafster altogether.

- One of your two guys under the arch ought to be packing Yin-Yang or Time Magic. Any and all buffs and debuffs you can dish out is very good. Ramza's trio starts out in pretty safe territory, but those two poor souls are surrounded on all sides.

- I personally use Agrias for this battle regardless of how much I make use of her later. Since you gotta jump right into the fray in this battle, her instant casting and area of effect really helps out. Stasis Sword does respectable damage and can inflict Stop, and Lightning Stab just deals plain good damage.

Mr. Sensible
06-30-2007, 08:35 PM
Excellent, now I have a reason to get enough JP for Steal Weapon. Haven't gotten much use out of a Thief yet.

Torgo
06-30-2007, 08:48 PM
PROtip for stealing: Status effects are your friend. Anything and everything you can throw at him helps, especially sleep and stop. The double-edge to all this is that you potentially have to keep him hanging around to steal the item, and there will be times where, yeah, it may tell you that you have a 30% chance of success, but after ten tries it doesn't really feel like it any more.

That said, stealing the Blood Sword from Gafgarion is easy street compared to stealing from other certain characters...

Mightyblue
06-30-2007, 09:06 PM
Elmdor...*shudders* The only story battle character in the game with Hamedo, and not only is he insanely strong you've got the two assassins hanging around too. Getting that Genji equipment and that katana were some of the most frustrating moments I've ever had in a game.

Torgo
06-30-2007, 09:24 PM
Never mind the Blood Suck, Blade Grasp, and Teleport 2...

And the Assassin's having special moves with really troublesome side effects... like 100% chance of Death. (Fortunately they're not too bright and don't make the use of it they should).

Traumadore
07-01-2007, 12:08 AM
I liked Kartia too, but the fact that your resources carried over from battle to battle made it so a few bad runs would leave you screwed later on. The monsters were very charming and I remember it being quick to play too, so starting over wouldnt be too hard.

I noticed that Fallout Tactics wasn't mentioned anywhere, but this has always been a big one amongst me and my friends. Challenging in the extreme, but completely rewarding when you pull off a sweet ambush, or just load everyone up on combat drugs and burst into a room with plasma fists.

Also, Roachor.

On the FFT note, anyone ever notice ninja-Agrias throws 2 spaces further than a normal ninja?

Coinspinner
07-01-2007, 03:12 AM
Should be equal to her Move range.

Deadguy2322
07-01-2007, 05:25 AM
I liked Kartia too, but the fact that your resources carried over from battle to battle made it so a few bad runs would leave you screwed later on. The monsters were very charming and I remember it being quick to play too, so starting over wouldnt be too hard.


Kartia is fun, but the whole rock/paper/scissors thing can really oversimplify some of the battles, I found.

reibeatall
07-01-2007, 07:28 AM
Am I just stupid, or do the fights in Hoshigami Remix take a really long time? I'm talking 25-30 minutes a piece.

Torgo
07-01-2007, 07:36 AM
Should be equal to her Move range.
Really? The more you know I guess. Guess Move +3 is the way to go there.

Sanagi
07-02-2007, 04:19 AM
Elmdor...*shudders* The only story battle character in the game with Hamedo, and not only is he insanely strong you've got the two assassins hanging around too. Getting that Genji equipment and that katana were some of the most frustrating moments I've ever had in a game.
One word.

Chicken!

Chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken chicken!

Balrog
07-02-2007, 06:39 AM
Man, all this talk makes me want to get out my Castlevania-themed FFT game. I think I at least had Dracula mostly to where he wanted to be.

Damnit, I need to play games I haven't beaten already this summer!

What characters did you use and what class/classes were they?

thomp538
07-02-2007, 10:35 AM
Do the characters you've had use it have high Faith? That, compounded with the Monk's lack of armor, definitely could create the impression that they don't take magic damage well.
High faith, Ramza yes, because he has high everything, so that could be the problem. Also does headgear give you a magic resist advantage in FFT? because monks can't wear headgear either.

thomp538
07-02-2007, 10:44 AM
High faith, Ramza yes, because he has high everything, so that could be the problem. Also does headgear give you a magic resist advantage in FFT? because monks can't wear headgear either.
Am I reading correctly that there is a way to control the guest characters? Or am I inferring incorrectly?

Coinspinner
07-02-2007, 01:06 PM
High faith, Ramza yes, because he has high everything, so that could be the problem. Also does headgear give you a magic resist advantage in FFT? because monks can't wear headgear either.
No, just HP.

Am I reading correctly that there is a way to control the guest characters? Or am I inferring incorrectly?
At some point characters like Agrias will ask to join you. Say yes and you get full control over them. But you can't control them while they are guests.

ScrambledGregs
07-02-2007, 02:33 PM
I'm late to the discussion already in progress, so I'm just going to do the usual "HAI GUYZ IM NEW TO THE FORUMS" thing and just list games. Also I'm going to keep saying strategy RPG just to be a jerk.

--Shining Force 1,2,3: The first two are absolute gems which you can still play through today and not just appreciate but enjoy. As for the third game, for which my friend actually spent the requisite $100 to acquire off eBay, I thought it was muddled in the translation to 3D. Well, semi-3D. Don't get me wrong, it's still a pretty good strategy RPG, but the lack of the other 2/3 of the game and the nearly palpable lack of charm that the first two games had makes it just not as good. We could also foresee this as the turning point for the Shining series, which is maybe one of the saddest stories in the gaming world, besting even the Mana series in my opinion for most bad games in a row.

--Ogre series: I've not played many of the titles in this series, but the fairly open ended nature of Ogre Battle blew my mind back in the day.

--Vandal Hearts: The first game is a competent, straightforward strategy RPG which is most notable for having fountains of blow spray out of enemies when you off them. Vandal Hearts 2, which I never played, is notable for being boring and ugly as the devil's face.

--Jagged Alliance: Only PC gamers have likely heard of this game, and even then it's kind of obscure. But the basic idea of Jagged Alliance is that you control and run a mercenary business. In the case of the second game, your overall mission is to depose the bitchy queen of a third world country. The game has a great sense of humor and is just really damn cool for its uniqueness. There's just something cool about leading a raid on an airport and afterward being able to 'order' guns and equipment through it.

--Final Fantasy Tactics: Has anybody ever heard of this game?? I kid. It is greatness as long as you don't try to make any sense out of the story.

--Final Fantasy Tactics Advance: This game averaged out to 'OK' in my opinion. I loved the idea of adding races with specific jobs and abilities, but I hated that everything else was dumbed down while at same time made impossibly aggravating by the Judgement system and the wandering bands of other Clans you had to fight off to 'keep' your territory.

--Arc The Lad series: I realize I'm alone in this regard, but I liked the third game the best of the original trilogy. The less said about the messes that are the PS2 sequels the better.

--Front Mission 3: Having never played the other games in the series, I have no right to say this, but Front Mission 3 is the best game in the series and one of the best strategy RPGs for the PS1. Mixing and matching parts was never as practical as I would have liked, but any game with a main character who looks like what I imagine a young, Japanese Mister Rogers is ok in my book.

--Disgaea 1 and 2/La Pucelle Tactics/Phantom Brave/Makai Kingdom: I keep buying these games, and I enjoy them, but I never, ever finish them. It's like I have some weird mental defect where I go into them knowing they're going to be grindfest time sinks and eventually give them up for the same reason. I've always kind of thought of these games as the single player, Japanese equivalent of MMORPGs insofar as obsessed fans spend hundreds of hours playing these games and getting ultimate EVERYTHING for no reason I can accept as sensible.

--Fire Emblem series: I would love these games if not for two problems: permanent death and the inability to replay stages to level up. That make seem like a hypocritical thing to say since I normally rally against level grinding, but there's a way to make leveling up necessary without making it seem like grinding.

--Suikoden Tactics: Imagine you put your tongue on top of a solid chunk of your favorite candy, but every time you took a bite or licked, somebody dropped a brick on your tongue. That's what Suikoden Tactics is like. At first glance it could have been so cool; after all, Final Fantasy made a great transition to the strategy RPG formula. But Suikoden Tactics is bad or average in nearly every regard. I could maybe see people liking it, but not counting it amongst their favorite games ever. I got this game used for $17 and I feel ripped off.

MarsDragon
07-02-2007, 03:03 PM
What characters did you use and what class/classes were they?

I don't think I finished grinding to give everyone their stuff, but here's what I intended to do, at least:

-Dracula (Ramza)-

Main Class: Summoner
Secondary: Wizard
Reaction: Dragon Spirit
Support: Equip Sword
Movement: Teleport

-St. Germain-

Main class: Ninja
Secondary: Geomancer/Time Mage
Reaction: Abandon
Support: Equip Shield
Movement: Teleport

-Leon-

Main class: Knight
Secondary: Ninja
Reaction: Counter
Support: (couldn't pick something for here)
Movement: Move+3

-Charlotte-

Main class: White Mage
Seconday: Wizard
Reaction: Counter Magic
Support: Magic AttackUP
Movement: Fly

-Vincent-

Main class: Thief
Secondary class: Mediator
Reaction: Gilgame Heart
Support: Secret Hunt
Movement: Move-Find Item

Vincent's only really there because I wanted a thief, and the merchants are about as close as you can get. Anyway, that was what was going to be my team, made more for theme than power. Maybe I'll give it another shot once I finish Odin Sphere and Okami.

Balrog
07-02-2007, 08:05 PM
I was hoping for a little of this:

-Grant -

Main Class: Thief
Secondary: Dragoon
Reaction: Gilgame Heart
Support: Throw Item
Movement: Ignore Height

MarsDragon
07-02-2007, 09:59 PM
Make your OWN Castlevania-themed FFT game, then. It can even have blackjack and hookers if you want.

Mr. Sensible
07-03-2007, 03:19 AM
The replay value of this game is terrifying. It's pretty much all I've been doing on my week of vacation...

Deadguy2322
07-03-2007, 04:34 AM
Make your OWN Castlevania-themed FFT game, then. It can even have blackjack and hookers if you want.

On second thought, forget the blackjack, and the FFT.

Balrog
07-03-2007, 06:07 AM
Make your OWN Castlevania-themed FFT game, then. It can even have blackjack and hookers if you want.

I'm not harshing on your list, I dig it. I'm just trying to get Grant his propers.

Coinspinner
07-16-2007, 11:45 PM
http://ir.nikkei.co.jp/irftp/data/tdnr1/home/oracle/140/2007/2711045/27110450.pdf

I feel kinda bad for Disgaea junkies. They have to get second jobs to play a game that might as well have been on PS2. Photobucket is down so DL the PDF for pics.

cartman414
07-17-2007, 12:11 AM
Saw that just now over at NeoGAF. Man, what a farce.

Eusis
07-17-2007, 12:18 AM
I've got a lot of conflicting opinions on this one. This could prove that the PS3 (and I'd assume X360) can get lower budget games that don't try to be graphically amazing. But... Really, why bother putting it on that? Could've just been on PS2/PSP/Wii and let way more people get the game. Eh, whatever, the PS3 needs more worthwhile exclusives, though the first game was enough for me.

alexb
07-17-2007, 12:21 AM
This is pretty much inexcusably lazy.

Eusis
07-17-2007, 12:23 AM
They could've prettied up the sprites a little bit. Now it's looking like Castlevania or something, except at least Castlevania only recycled sprites for games running at roughly identical resolutions. The, uh, chalkboard's nicely detailed though.

alexb
07-17-2007, 12:47 AM
It's nothing that couldn't have been done on PS2. Or PSP for that matter.

Jakanden
07-17-2007, 03:43 AM
I don't know if it has been mentioned in this thread but I would like to add Growlanser Generations. I gamefly'd this as my 360 is dead right now and it was one of the few Working Designs games I missed.

I am so hooked on the game it is insane and I am now working on getting the collectors edition of the game. I am not super into TRPG's in general, but I am loving this one.

Balrog
07-17-2007, 06:15 AM
What's funny is that Disgaea 1 & 2 weren't really pushing the PS2 either.

Coinspinner
07-17-2007, 06:02 PM
http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/805/805607/disgaea-3-announced-20070717031953084.jpg

Apart from the board this looks like a PS1 game emulated on PC. Actually worse, because ePSXe allows you to keep the 2D elements sharp.

ScrambledGregs
07-17-2007, 06:28 PM
Funnily enough, that was my first reaction, too. It looks exactly like the first two Disgaea games, only with bad PS1 3D. Like Xenogears, really.

Potato
07-17-2007, 07:20 PM
There's no real excuse for it. If you're going to be making a sprite game on the PS3, you really need to look into high definition.

Alex
07-17-2007, 07:21 PM
So far, I am liking the actually translated version of Der Langrisser for the Super Nintendo emulator. I might play it again with the babelfish quality translation for shits and giggles when I'm done.

Actually, if I had the capacity for rom hacking, I think I'd create dialouge patches that change everything into overly broken English.

Torgo
07-17-2007, 09:21 PM
Much as I dig Disgaea 2 (was playing a little today in fact), it really just only makes me want to play FFT and leaves me wondering why no one has carte blanch ripped off the game mechanics yet.

I mean, seriously, would anyone actually complain about it? If nothing else, the one thing that people have leveled at every game in the (sub)genre the last decade, even the best ones, is 'Well, it's no Final Fantasy Tactics'. The only one that's come close is it's sequel which was saddled with that completely retarded Judge System. If FFTA hadn't had that I would hold it in significantly higher regard.

tsuki
07-18-2007, 05:47 AM
Everyone stop hating on FFTA already :(

ScrambledGregs
07-18-2007, 08:50 AM
God, FFTA was like a bizarre rom hack of FFT in which you've got some halfway decent ideas (actual races with unique job sets!! mission based story progression!! story that actually made sense!!) saddled with inexplicable, irritating crap (the whole judge system!! having to fight other clans off to keep hold of your territory!! not nearly as deep or interesting job system!!).

Lest we forget, FFT was so great because ZOMG CLOUD. Even though I don't like FFVII all that much, it was cool to see a nod to the fanboys. I wonder if he'll still be in the PSP port, or if it'll just be ZOMG BALTHIER.

tungwene
07-18-2007, 08:57 AM
Lest we forget, FFT was so great because ZOMG CLOUD. Even though I don't like FFVII all that much, it was cool to see a nod to the fanboys. I wonder if he'll still be in the PSP port, or if it'll just be ZOMG BALTHIER.http://www.rpgland.com/content/media/2007/07/in-game__1_.jpg

ringworm
07-18-2007, 09:29 AM
I think putting in characters from other games as a fanwank is lazy and a disservice to the game. Final Fantasy Tactics is better than that. Subtler things like the Aeris nod is ok though.

Daydreamer
07-18-2007, 09:36 AM
You've never killed Altima with Omnislash, have you?

Sanagi
07-18-2007, 09:36 AM
Companies totally need to start ripping off FFT more. There's so many strategy games that just bore me to tears because they lack the customization and incremental upgrades of the job system. If I want a tactical RPG that has no customization, I'll just go back to Ultima 4 which has the added appeal of being able to walk around(and kill innocent people).

tungwene
07-18-2007, 09:46 AM
I think I'm giving up on Hoshigami Remix. Basically, I'm at the point where it's impossible to level up quickly anymore because the amount of EXP and DEV you get depends on your lvl and the lvl of the enemy you're attacking and I've long since out stripped the enemies in the Tower of Trials, the story battle enemies have caught up to me level wise which is why I'm trying to do some grinding, and the fastest way for me to grind is to make my own characters turn on each other because they're the highest lvl people that can be fought. The whole wacking each other back and forth with their fists bit is what finally made me decide that this is just silly and I'd probably enjoy myself more playing some other tactical RPG or just wait for Jeanne d'Arc and FFT:LW. The reviews are right. Hoshigami Remix has potential but it's still a broken game.

Torgo
07-18-2007, 11:03 AM
Everyone stop hating on FFTA already :(
No no no, don't mistake me. My distaste for FFTA lies completely in the Judge System. It's fine when a game sprinkles a few battles in the game with contextual limitations to force the player to think on his feet a little, but the Judges are completely arbitrary and serve no purpose other then to create artificial limitations.

Believe me, if it wasn't for them I would probably consider the game one of the best entries in the genre since Tactics. Maybe the best. Sadly, because the developers were either misguided or lazy, it was not to be.

spineshark
07-18-2007, 11:17 AM
So far, I am liking the actually translated version of Der Langrisser for the Super Nintendo emulator. I might play it again with the babelfish quality translation for shits and giggles when I'm done.

Actually, if I had the capacity for rom hacking, I think I'd create dialouge patches that change everything into overly broken English.
There's an actual translation here (http://langrisser.cinnamonpirate.com/). "It is," it is good.

Coinspinner
07-18-2007, 12:00 PM
Much as I dig Disgaea 2 (was playing a little today in fact), it really just only makes me want to play FFT and leaves me wondering why no one has carte blanch ripped off the game mechanics yet.

I mean, seriously, would anyone actually complain about it? If nothing else, the one thing that people have leveled at every game in the (sub)genre the last decade, even the best ones, is 'Well, it's no Final Fantasy Tactics'. The only one that's come close is it's sequel which was saddled with that completely retarded Judge System. If FFTA hadn't had that I would hold it in significantly higher regard.My distaste for FFTA lies completely in the Judge System.

My take is that it's a niche genre. Whenever I read a thread about "SRPGs", aside from this board I mean, FFT is actually at the top of few people's lists. I suppose for people who play 'em all then FFT's depth isn't so deep, and it's challenge low, and it's balance out of whack. It gets harshed for it's style of allowing you a small number of units, those units being stronger than the enemy's, and the enemy outnumbering you. FFT seems more of a favorite of folks who dabble in the genre rather than the diehards who buy everything released. I imagine the people who make the games are most like the diehards.

As for FFTA, the Judges are the least of what I consider it's faults. You can nullify their laws or walk an extra day if you don't like what they've decided. The guy making A-2 says the game will use the same mechanics as FFTA so I'm not slightly interested no matter what happens to Laws.

You've never killed Altima with Omnislash, have you?

Is that possible? She wouldn't hold still for it so you'd have to somehow bait her into the area of effect...

chronolink
07-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Why all the hate towards FFTA?

I understand the job system was not as robust as in FFT, but thats because they chose to divide them jobs amongst the races. And as long as you paid attention before getting into fights you could change jobs and abilities before the fight to not anger the judges. I actually felt it gave you a reason to diversify your characters, instead of just having them learn only 1 job and nothing else.

I also liked how status effects have a really high probability of actually working (even more after sleeping the target), how poison does pretty high damage for a change, and how magic users don't have casting time and they're MP refills a bit each turn. I just hate (hate hate hate hate hate hate HATE) how trying to cast a big spell in FFT just makes the caster very vulnerable, in that they can't move, and they take more damage. I will stop the rambling now.

Also: Hello everyone, I'm new to the forums and I'm pretty much ambivalent towards strat RPGs.

ringworm
07-18-2007, 03:47 PM
I actually felt it gave you a reason to diversify your characters, instead of just having them learn only 1 job and nothing else.

This is pretty much how the Judge system affects me as well. It forces me to do something that I would ultimately probably do anyway, so it isn't that big of a deal. I keep enough antilaw cards around so that if I REALLY want to get out of something I can, but even then I rarely do it.

I think its kind of a half-assed mechanic but my feelings on it aren't that strong. In my mind the #1 flaw with FFTA is the completely awful menu interface.

chronolink
07-18-2007, 03:51 PM
In my mind the #1 flaw with FFTA is the completely awful menu interface.

Very VERY true.

Coinspinner
07-18-2007, 04:49 PM
I actually felt it gave you a reason to diversify your characters, instead of just having them learn only 1 job and nothing else.

It's sort of fixing it's own problem. The stat system and way abilities were learned and distributed amongst Jobs in FFTA makes us want to stay the same Job forever. The dispatch missions and laws force us to do otherwise.

I also liked how status effects have a really high probability of actually working (even more after sleeping the target), how poison does pretty high damage for a change, and how magic users don't have casting time and they're MP refills a bit each turn. I just hate (hate hate hate hate hate hate HATE) how trying to cast a big spell in FFT just makes the caster very vulnerable, in that they can't move, and they take more damage. I will stop the rambling now.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/Coinspinner/Junk/Eviljim3.gif Everything you hate, I love! Everything you love, I hate! :p

Also you can move while casting spells. You can't move while using the archer's Charge ability.

cartman414
07-18-2007, 04:56 PM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a239/Coinspinner/Junk/Eviljim3.gif Everything you hate, I love! Everything you love, I hate! :p

I hate losing, therefore you must love losing! Therefore, I suggest you give up.

ScrambledGregs
07-18-2007, 06:26 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else think that the permanent death mechanic ruins Fire Emblem games?? It wouldn't be so bad if movement radii weren't so damn large, but I invariably end up thinking my weak spellcasters and archers are safe and then all of a sudden they're dead.

Also, that one battle where the Black Knight suddenly decides to enter the fray literally made me quit the game. I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE cheap moments in games like this because there's no way you can see it coming and I have the kind of luck where I've let my weak idiots stay behind to keep out of harm's way when suddenly a level Asskick knight appears out of nowhere to kill them all.

Jeanie
07-18-2007, 07:53 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else think that the permanent death mechanic ruins Fire Emblem games?? It wouldn't be so bad if movement radii weren't so damn large, but I invariably end up thinking my weak spellcasters and archers are safe and then all of a sudden they're dead.

Also, that one battle where the Black Knight suddenly decides to enter the fray literally made me quit the game. I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE cheap moments in games like this because there's no way you can see it coming and I have the kind of luck where I've let my weak idiots stay behind to keep out of harm's way when suddenly a level Asskick knight appears out of nowhere to kill them all.

Well usually if they kill one my guys, I reset and I remember when they come in and will keep someone in back to protect my squishies.

Also the Wall of Fighters tactics works great, especially in Path of Radiance for the GC when your calvary can run out, attack, and run for cover behind the Wall. I love the GC version, so many fights in castles and forts mean that tight formations with archers, mages, and most importantly, healers a couple of squares back, totally roll over almost everything.

chronolink
07-18-2007, 08:09 PM
Also you can move while casting spells. You can't move while using the archer's Charge ability.

Well, i guess that was it. I was doing it once and moved the character, because his turn came AGAIN before he shot and it canceled. And I swore the game off and said I would never play it again. Of course, I didn't actually stop playing.

About Fire Emblem, its annoying more than anything when a character dies, I just mainly start the fight again and try to avoid that.

Te game that really bothers me is Advance Wars. Its supposed to be really balanced and great and all that, but the campaign is more about knowing that the computer doesn't pull back injured units from the front line, and its dumb how you need to exploit the AI to finish some stages. Yeah, I know its not a Tactical/Stratergy RPG.

Mightyblue
07-18-2007, 08:11 PM
I love multi. My cousins grumble whenever I kick their butts on AW:DS.

Cyrael
07-18-2007, 09:17 PM
So I've never played Final Fantasy Tactics. In fact Disgaea and La Pucelle are the only tactical games I've played, but I love them to death.

So imagine my joy when a friend of mine is moving away and he offers to give me his 'Greatest Hits' copy.

Then imagine how I felt when I realized the damned disc isn't recognized by my PS3 or my PS2. I remember when I worked at Gamestop long ago hearing something about the initial press of the 'Greatest Hits' version of Tactics being wonky, but I can't find any info on it. Am I imagining this, or was there really an issue? The disc has some minor scratches that MIGHT be causing the problem, but I have a few games I picked up used in worse condition that play fine.

So I guess what I am asking is:

1. Was there a problem with the initial press of the 'Greatest Hits' Final Fantasy Tactics
2. If this isn't the problem, would it be worth it to get the disc 'resurfaced' or whatever it is they offer at the EB by my house to see if that takes care of it? Has anyone ever done something similar for a game?

MarsDragon
07-18-2007, 09:46 PM
1. Was there a problem with the initial press of the 'Greatest Hits' Final Fantasy Tactics
2. If this isn't the problem, would it be worth it to get the disc 'resurfaced' or whatever it is they offer at the EB by my house to see if that takes care of it? Has anyone ever done something similar for a game?

1. I have no idea. I have the Greatest Hits version, but it works fine on my PS2 once you account for DREs mostly caused by having an old PS2.

2. Depends. If you can get it cheap I know it fixed my problem with Valkyrie Profile not loading, but I'm not sure it would help in your case. Are there any PSXes around you can test with?

Failing that, last I checked it wasn't too hard to track down a copy of FFT for cheap. I can see how that would be frustrating, though.

Eusis
07-18-2007, 09:54 PM
Yeah, there were problems with at least the initial printing of the GH version running on PS2s and even PS1s I believe. I think you're kinda screwed there unless you have an old PS1 to play it on, and even then.

Red Hedgehog
07-18-2007, 10:20 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else think that the permanent death mechanic ruins Fire Emblem games?? It wouldn't be so bad if movement radii weren't so damn large, but I invariably end up thinking my weak spellcasters and archers are safe and then all of a sudden they're dead.

Fire Emblem games wouldn't be as good without permanent death. Part of the gameplay is making sure weaker units are protected. It just wouldn't be the same, and wouldn't be as good if the only penalty was that you didn't get to use them until the next chapter. The obsessive compulsive need in me to never let a character die has frustrated me sometimes, but I wouldn't have it any other way.

Sanagi
07-18-2007, 11:39 PM
I've only played through the first Fire Emblem on the Gameboy, and the annoying thing there was having three characters whose deaths meant game over. The slightest bad luck could ruin a half hour of work.

Merus
07-19-2007, 12:32 AM
Part of the gameplay is making sure weaker units are protected.

Surely there is a better way of enforcing this than a honking great penalty that everyone negates anyway.

tsuki
07-19-2007, 05:40 AM
My take is that it's a niche genre. Whenever I read a thread about "SRPGs", aside from this board I mean, FFT is actually at the top of few people's lists. I suppose for people who play 'em all then FFT's depth isn't so deep, and it's challenge low, and it's balance out of whack. It gets harshed for it's style of allowing you a small number of units, those units being stronger than the enemy's, and the enemy outnumbering you. FFT seems more of a favorite of folks who dabble in the genre rather than the diehards who buy everything released. I imagine the people who make the games are most like the diehards.

As for FFTA, the Judges are the least of what I consider it's faults. You can nullify their laws or walk an extra day if you don't like what they've decided. The guy making A-2 says the game will use the same mechanics as FFTA so I'm not slightly interested no matter what happens to Laws.



Is that possible? She wouldn't hold still for it so you'd have to somehow bait her into the area of effect...

I'm more inclined towards the opinion that the Judge System is a gimmick that could be circumvented rather than a game breaker. I guess I didn't mind it so much because I fully expected FFTA to be a 'SRPG lite' fun-romp-as-long-as-you-don't-take-it-too-seriously, while just about everyone I've talked to who hates the game inevitably compares it to FFT, like they were expecting it to be a FFT2 or something.

chronolink
07-19-2007, 09:13 AM
Surely there is a better way of enforcing this than a honking great penalty that everyone negates anyway.

And making sure you pit your units against whoever they are strong against. Like the wimpy pegasus riders, they can't take a hit, much less from archers, but they eat magic users fro breakfast. And lunch. Dinner too sometimes.

Its funny (not really) when you calculate a boss fight to hit him just the right number of times and block off all the units he might kill in one hit and keep healers nearby for the rest of the units, just to have him double hit and critical whoever was supposed to tank him. Thats why I haven't finished the first GBA game yet. And haven't opened the second one.

ScrambledGregs
07-19-2007, 10:42 AM
Fire Emblem feels almost dumbed down to me because of the weapon and spell triangles. It makes sense that spellcasters get killed by everyone, and air units get eaten up by archers, but everything else pisses me off to no end. It makes it supremely hard to level up many units because you don't run into enough people they're strong against per map.

I dunno, it's possible that I can try and try and try to like Fire Emblem games and I just can't. I think punishing me for lucky attacks the enemy gets off, or the cheap "there's no way you could have predicted this" enemy ambushes like I detailed above", stinks of poor game design. I don't mind that it's frustratingly hard to level up healers in the first Shining Force game because I know that if they die, I can always resurrect them. Hell, it's a bonafide strategy in these games to send out weak units to draw in the enemy, which Fire Emblem says "no" to.

While we're at it, I don't like the Advance Wars games either. Much like Fire Emblem, it felt as though what units you attacked other units with meant more than any kind of sound strategy.

dosboot
07-19-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm a fan of SRPGs and I'm glad that FE games are hard. I love being able to see marked improvements from one play through to another. That said, I agree that the permanent death mechanic is annoying and should be removed. The reason they maintain it is because FE is known for being hard. This is just poor reasoning because one can make a very hard game without being irritating in the way you do it. Even if one didn't care about alleviating the frustration for newcomers, it would still improve the playing experience for vets. I've played through the first GBA game half a dozen times and the GC game 3 times, but anytime I lose a character after >45 minutes I often just turn off the machine.

What FE (or really any SRPG) needs is a new dimension that allows difficulty that is not of the flavor "your character will be permanently killed" or "you miss event/treasure X if you don't orchestrate the whole battle to just barely meet a turn requirement". Whatever it is shouldn't involve having to check every enemy's attack and movement, or at least not every turn.

Something else SRPGs could address is the experience system. The critical flaw is if you ever experiment with a character then any experience he gains is potentially wasted and likewise if you ever replace a character then all his experience is now useless. The logic of the game is telling you what you really should have done is never have used a character in the first place if he was going to be replaced. A second flaw is awarding experience based on level differences. This is designed to to be helpful (by mitigating the first flaw) but it also ends up causing micromanagement of killing blows to make sure that your party is balanced level wise.


Its funny (not really) when you calculate a boss fight to hit him just the right number of times and block off all the units he might kill in one hit and keep healers nearby for the rest of the units, just to have him double hit and critical whoever was supposed to tank him. Thats why I haven't finished the first GBA game yet. And haven't opened the second one.

This is what I really appreciate about the design of Advance Wars. All arduous calculations are either simplified or plain unnecessary. e.g. all units of a given type behave identically under a given commanding officer, so you aren't constantly subtracting stat A from stat B. Exactly how much one type does to another is far less critical too since you often only need to remember the coarse details, like if one unit is weak against the other or if one unit decimates the other or if they trade hitpoints. And these coarse details are easy to remember because it's all a metaphor for familiar ideas, like machine guns being good against infantry and useless against steel armor. Compare to "skinny kid with a sword versus a muscular brigand".

(actually the skinny kid always wins, so maybe its a bad example)

Potato
07-19-2007, 12:13 PM
Talking Time, mete out your particular brand of wisdom. What should I play next? I've just gone through FFT again and am still feeling the SRPG buzz.

Choices are:

Final Fantasy Tactics: Advance
Front Mission 3
Hoshigami: Ragga Dub Mix (beat the PSX version ages ago)
Kartia (never finished)
Tactics Ogre
Tactics Ogre: Knight of Lodis (barely started)
Vandal Hearts (never finished)

Screw it, play Tomba (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=16528&postcount=24)

You may suggest anything else you feel is appropriate. Some titles were intentionally left off the list.

Mightyblue
07-19-2007, 12:21 PM
Either FM:3 or TO depending on how much you want to see FFT's papa. TO was actually released first on the JP SNES, then ported afterwards. It's also a Matsuno game, which is what places it earlier on FFT's "family tree."

It's a rougher game than either FFT or TO:KoL, but it has branching plotlines, which = cool. Plus if you've played Ogre Battle there might be an interesting twist at the end...

Potato
07-19-2007, 12:32 PM
TO was actually released first on the JP SNES, then ported afterwards. It's also a Matsuno game, which is what places it earlier on FFT's "family tree."Indeed, I do love me some Ogre games. Come home soon, Matsuno.

reibeatall
07-19-2007, 12:36 PM
Front Mission 3.

ringworm
07-19-2007, 01:04 PM
Is there any real solid info on what the hell has happened to Matsuno? Is he currently being employed by anyone? Will he work again? Has he been seen in public? Is he even sane?

Balrog
07-19-2007, 01:06 PM
Front Mission 3!!!

TheSL
07-19-2007, 01:10 PM
Is there any real solid info on what the hell has happened to Matsuno? Is he currently being employed by anyone? Will he work again? Has he been seen in public? Is he even sane?

According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasumi_Matsuno) his whereabouts are "unknown." I would guess far away from designing a game any time soon, though.

tungwene
07-19-2007, 01:13 PM
Front Mission 3 for sure.

djSyndrome
07-19-2007, 01:16 PM
Front Mission 3.
Front Mission 3.
Front Mission 3.

Potato
07-19-2007, 01:38 PM
According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasumi_Matsuno) his whereabouts are "unknown." I would guess far away from designing a game any time soon, though.I like to think that means he escaped Square under cover of darkness and is currently hitchhiking around the world under an assumed name. He'll make a Vagrant Story set in modern Mumbai when he returns to society.

So, Emma or Alisa?

Jakanden
07-19-2007, 01:42 PM
Front Mission 3 although it is pretty damn long. I put about 40 hours into it before I stopped and still had aways to go I believe.

djSyndrome
07-19-2007, 01:47 PM
I like to think that means he escaped Square under cover of darkness and is currently hitchhiking around the world under an assumed name. He'll make a Vagrant Story set in modern Mumbai when he returns to society.

Or he'll wind up at MistWalker, where all of the other pre-Zippers Square folks seem to be hanging out nowadays.

Potato
07-19-2007, 02:07 PM
Or he'll wind up at MistWalker, where all of the other pre-Zippers Square folks seem to be hanging out nowadays.Those guys seem pretty cool, maybe they'll give him a handful of underlings and tell him to go crazy. "Not, you know, literally."

Speaking of Mistwalker, has anyone been keeping tabs on Archaic Sealed Heat? Who knows if it'll escape Japan, but it could be another topic of discussion for this thread.

Coinspinner
07-19-2007, 02:40 PM
May 7, 2007 (http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070507/sheffield_07.shtml)
Gamasutra: I’ve been hoping that, on the Square-Enix side, we’ll hear from (Final Fantasy Tactics, Vagrant Story, and Final Fantasy XII original director) Yasumi Matsuno again. Maybe you should hire him!

RN: Yeah…but Sakaguchi is talking to him now, so I don’t know. He also started his own stuff.
July 8, 2007 (http://www.gamersyde.com/news_4539_en.html)
Gamersyde: Would you like to work for Yasumi Matsuno again?

Hironobu Sakaguchi: (laughs) I haven't heard from him for a while so I don't know how he's doing now to be honest.

ScrambledGregs
07-19-2007, 05:27 PM
Play Front Mission 3 and go the Emma route. But I've got a thing for blondes, so... (Is it blond or blonde when it's referring to a girl...??)

SkywardShadow
07-19-2007, 05:48 PM
FM3 would be my pick as well. I played through twice, back-to-back, for all the story missions. I was addicted to that game for a long time...

Mazian
07-20-2007, 12:41 AM
Emma for the first playthrough, if only for the Annoying Character Factor. This way, you get Linny, who's incredibly annoying as soon as he joins but then has only about three lines of dialog for the entire remainder of the game. Alisa's storyline gets you Pham, who is... more talkative. (Although on the plus side, you do get to change her wanzer's paint job to bright red and rename it EVA-02.)