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PHATTOM
06-03-2007, 09:41 AM
Do you think it will ever hit like whats been happening to music, movies, and all other intellectual properties, all of which is only going to get much, much, much worse for those involved financially if they stay on the same course?

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 10:13 AM
It pretty much already is there. The only thing protecting the game publishers would be the margin on new games. Sadly, that only applies to blockbusters, small titles have a harder time making money if they don't sell.

Personally, I only pirate imports, since I have nowhere to buy them locally. Not having a credit card makes online shopping too much hassle.

Torgo
06-03-2007, 10:16 AM
Where's the 'Box of Aids' image when you need it?

If we're talking about older material, I'd say it's already worse because of the entitlement mentality that fuels it, mainly in emulation circles. Also: It helped deal the death blow to Sega's hardware business (but that was as much their own stupid fault, so I'm willing to let that one go to some extent.)

The current stuff? No, not really. The sheer size of these games and the hardware needed to pirate them, let alone play the pirated copies, will pretty much keep it out of the hands of everyone except the hardcore pirates.

alexb
06-03-2007, 10:29 AM
On the one hand, yes, it's copyright infringement. On the other, how else are you going to play Mother 3 in a language not composed of squiggles and stick figures? I can't dismiss emulation out of hand simply because it's made the impossible possible on many occasions. Admit it. How many of you would have played Seiken Densetsu 3 or Mother without it? Beyond that, I think that the quality of the fan groups' translations of Square's own work may have had a hand in raising the quality of the commercial translations. How? Well, it's difficult to say exactly, but it could be a combination of shame at being bested by amateurs, greater expectations on the part of fans (partially because of better quality fan translations), and just simply greater awareness of the games because they're now in English, thus allowing for a greater budget for official translation. I do think that FF5 was given a push because a fan trans was out in the wild. I guess I'm saying that I don't think the SNES stuff is really part of their problem and in fact may have been of some benefit to them. Of course, now that there's VC, I suppose the prospect of free does make their own usurerous prices less appealing.

gamin
06-03-2007, 10:51 AM
Game piracy is pretty widespread. Mod chips are great for breaking the region lock, but I don't doubt many people use them for other purposes entirely.

That said, I'm all for emulation of older stuff. If a game company isn't going to sell their old games, I see no harm in copying one, no one's losing money there. Although it probably has some effect on collectors selling real cartridges on ebay, I don't think its that bad--nothing replaces the real thing, and there are lots of people who still care about the old cartridges.

cartman414
06-03-2007, 11:10 AM
Game piracy is pretty widespread. Mod chips are great for breaking the region lock, but I don't doubt many people use them for other purposes entirely.

That said, I'm all for emulation of older stuff. If a game company isn't going to sell their old games, I see no harm in copying one, no one's losing money there. Although it probably has some effect on collectors selling real cartridges on ebay, I don't think its that bad--nothing replaces the real thing, and there are lots of people who still care about the old cartridges.

You win this thread!

Gained 15 awesomeness points.
Gained 3 happiness points.

djSyndrome
06-03-2007, 11:39 AM
Don't Copy That Floppy.

Excitemike
06-03-2007, 12:03 PM
Do you think it will ever hit like whats been happening to music, movies, and all other intellectual properties, all of which is only going to get much, much, much worse for those involved financially if they stay on the same course?

Doesn't game piracy predate movie and music piracy by more than a decade? Hasn't slowed them down too much. I think the reason the recording industry is in such bad shape is because they had such a stranglehold on the way it was sold. Forcing the same crap down our throats over and over again and charging more for it every year, with all the money going to the record execs and the actual artists themselves getting a pittance. Movies aren't much better, focusing on 100-200 million dollar blockbusters that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Both industries operate like de facto monopolies; the biggest players sit at the head of the table and make it impossible for fresh blood to come in. I shed no tears for them, they had their time. Digital distribution (you know, the legitimate kind) is leveling the playing field making it better for anyone that isn't a millionaire.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 12:11 PM
Doesn't game piracy predate movie and music piracy by more than a decade? Hasn't slowed them down too much. I think the reason the recording industry is in such bad shape is because they had such a stranglehold on the way it was sold. Forcing the same crap down our throats over and over again and charging more for it every year, with all the money going to the record execs and the actual artists themselves getting a pittance. Movies aren't much better, focusing on 100-200 million dollar blockbusters that appeal to the lowest common denominator. Both industries operate like de facto monopolies; the biggest players sit at the head of the table and make it impossible for fresh blood to come in. I shed no tears for them, they had their time. Digital distribution (you know, the legitimate kind) is leveling the playing field making it better for anyone that isn't a millionaire.


You have summed it up perfectly. The main threat to the movie and music industries isn't you grabbing a torrent, it's the music and movie producers themselves.

I used to work fo one of Canada's two movie distrubtion companies, and the idiotic hoops the studios made us jump through were intolerable. It seems that they don't realize that things were going to get leaked no matter when we delivered a print, and that they were just causing problems for the theatres and distributor.

gamin
06-03-2007, 12:11 PM
Thinking about it like that, I have to say, I really appreciate that the video game industry doesn't take such an iron fisted approach to copyright infringement.

Certainly they go after the big time pirates who sell $5 game DVDs in Asia and elsewhere, but as far as emulation goes, I don't see any major efforts to curb that. Nintendo would ask (not force countless lawsuits) people to pull down certain games from their sites, but they didn't even go after their whole library--just their bigger hits. If only other industries could be a little more respectful to their fans.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 12:16 PM
It's not Nintendo's respect for the fans, they have none.

It's the fact that they know there's more profit in scaring the next guy out of putting up their back library so they can sell it again for top dollar than there is in the small rewards that legal action would bring in.

If more people knew how easy emulation is, Nintendo would get more heavy-handed. I expect to see it start soon, with the Virtual Cashcow, er Console, being up and running.

Tomm Guycot
06-03-2007, 12:58 PM
If more people knew how easy emulation is, Nintendo would get more heavy-handed. I expect to see it start soon, with the Virtual Cashcow, er Console, being up and running.


Yeah, how dare they! It's not like they own those games or-- wait, they DO own those games, that's right.

...and if it wasn't for emulation, I never would have played Seiken Densetsu 3. And, I would probably still think it was the greatest game I missed out on and the pinnacle of the series--instead of the first tiny step in the wrong direction from SoM.

Thanks a lot, fan translation. I hate you.

Excitemike
06-03-2007, 01:08 PM
It's not Nintendo's respect for the fans, they have none.

It's the fact that they know there's more profit in scaring the next guy out of putting up their back library so they can sell it again for top dollar than there is in the small rewards that legal action would bring in.

If more people knew how easy emulation is, Nintendo would get more heavy-handed. I expect to see it start soon, with the Virtual Cashcow, er Console, being up and running.
Are you sure you are not thinking of Square-Enix? Nintendo is the one selling their classic games for a pittance.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 01:18 PM
Any company that sells Urban Champion for $5 on two different formats has no respect for anybody. Except for the Urban Champion programming team.

alexb
06-03-2007, 01:22 PM
Which they forced to appear under pseudonyms in the credits so they couldn't get better job offers from headhunters.

jovewolf
06-03-2007, 01:23 PM
The way I see it they're free to sell Urban Champion for whatever the hell they want. It's the people that'll buy it for that price that I'll point and laugh at.

Seriously though - you're not going to play Urban Champion even if it were free. Why are you complaining that you have to pay to play it then?

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 01:23 PM
Yeah, how dare they! It's not like they own those games or-- wait, they DO own those games, that's right.

I'm not saying they don't have the right. They do, and, in principle I believe a company should make older titles available.

I don't agree with the pricepoints Nintendo charges for things that are in no way whatsoever different from the last release. $5 for an NES game with no enhancement is a little steep. I'm not looking for a 3-d overhaul, just things like allowing saved tracks in Excitebike.

Hell, even the VC pricing looks generous compared to the NES Classics series for the GBA. $30 for Super Mario Bros, when the GBC version with extras was the same price? No.

I love retro releases. My wife will kill me if I buy one more NamcoMuseum. But that's the way they should be done. If you aren't going to enhance it, make shovelware. Give me 10 games for $30. Hell, if they're good enough, give me 20 for $75. Everybody BUT Nintendo does it this way.

Excitemike
06-03-2007, 01:31 PM
What game can you buy for less than five bucks? When you could still find NES cartridges in used game stores they would cost more than that. Why should I pay $30 for ten games when I'm never going to play eight of them? I'd rather just pay for the ones I want.

alexb
06-03-2007, 01:33 PM
Have we talked about this before? I think we've talked about this before.

jovewolf
06-03-2007, 01:35 PM
Yeah yeah we have. It's all going to get messy, Tomm's going to get mad, and then Calories Man will be blamed for everything.

Probably anyway.

alexb
06-03-2007, 01:47 PM
If we blame him before he returns to full power, it may kill him. The ambivalence this prospect breeds in me is puzzling.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 02:15 PM
What game can you buy for less than five bucks? When you could still find NES cartridges in used game stores they would cost more than that. Why should I pay $30 for ten games when I'm never going to play eight of them? I'd rather just pay for the ones I want.

Any compilation. I have never seen one price out much above $3 per game.

Tomm Guycot
06-03-2007, 02:15 PM
Hell, even the VC pricing looks generous compared to the NES Classics series for the GBA. $30 for Super Mario Bros, when the GBC version with extras was the same price? No.

But why would you pay $30 for a game whose MSRP was $20?

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 02:24 PM
But why would you pay $30 for a game whose MSRP was $20?


I'm in Canada. Currency conversion plus distribution markup.
U.S. MSRP means nothing here.

Excitemike
06-03-2007, 02:50 PM
Any compilation. I have never seen one price out much above $3 per game.
I'll ask this a different way: Have you ever seen a single game that cost less than five dollars? Gamestop had a huge sale last week and they had a few games for about that price, but not many. There was nothing that was cheaper. It's economics; if you sell something for less than the market price you devalue your product. Five bucks is the bargain basement price for the games industry and when you extrapolate that the prices for SNES, TG-16 and N64 games are also reasonable.

For me, pirating is a pain in the ass. You have to find a website with ROMs and jump through hoops to register or install spyware or get bombarded with banner ads. Disc based games come with a whole other set of headaches. It's not worth my time. Five bucks is about what I pay to rent a movie for one night, and for the same price I can keep a game? No contest.

Eusis
06-03-2007, 02:53 PM
Really, it's getting harder and harder to justify piracy of older games. Games like FM1 and RSG1 are actually getting translated and released here. And for stuff already out in America, VC, GameTap, and random game collections are doing a great job bringing back old favorites, and then some. Nowadays it seems like as long as there's something of a real demand for it, you'll see it released again. Heck, even if there isn't - who else wants to get Flicky on 4 different consoles? 5 when the inevitable VC release hits, though there's always backwards compatibility...

And I don't consider the prices that unreasonable. I can get and own any of those NES or TG16 games, R-Type exempted, for less then it costs to rent a game from Blockbuster anymore, and I figure SNES games are on par or better value-wise than those anyway. I do wish we got the Genesis games for $6, but that's because of that Sega Genesis collection they /just released/ and throwing most of those games on the VC. Seriously, I have to wonder if anyone buys any of those aside from being ignorant or just wanting Sonic. Then there's GameTap, but that's a bit more complicated to me.

cartman414
06-03-2007, 03:02 PM
Yeah, how dare they! It's not like they own those games or-- wait, they DO own those games, that's right.

...and if it wasn't for emulation, I never would have played Seiken Densetsu 3. And, I would probably still think it was the greatest game I missed out on and the pinnacle of the series--instead of the first tiny step in the wrong direction from SoM.

Thanks a lot, fan translation. I hate you.

Oh Tomm, you and your backhanded compliments. :D

Personally I preferred Seiken Densetsu 3. Having to wait for your weapon to charge back up to 100% in SoM soured things for me a tiny bit.

I hope GameTap's free ad supported game thing is unobtrusive, and becomes available for multiple games.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 03:02 PM
I'll ask this a different way: Have you ever seen a single game that cost less than five dollars? Gamestop had a huge sale last week and they had a few games for about that price, but not many. There was nothing that was cheaper. It's economics; if you sell something for less than the market price you devalue your product. Five bucks is the bargain basement price for the games industry and when you extrapolate that the prices for SNES, TG-16 and N64 games are also reasonable.

For me, pirating is a pain in the ass. You have to find a website with ROMs and jump through hoops to register or install spyware or get bombarded with banner ads. Disc based games come with a whole other set of headaches. It's not worth my time. Five bucks is about what I pay to rent a movie for one night, and for the same price I can keep a game? No contest.

Well, the only dedicated independant game store in town doesn't charge less than $10 for anything, but all the second-hand stores and pawn shops are usually $5 for SNES, $3 for Genesis and $1 for NES. The flea market is usually the same.

poetfox
06-03-2007, 03:04 PM
Seriously, I have to wonder if anyone buys any of those aside from being ignorant or just wanting Sonic.
I... might have bought those. Well, no... I bought Gunstar Heroes and Wonder Boy. But I knew I'd like those and I'd never played them before. 8 dollars is certianly keeping me from buying anything out of nostalgia, though. It's enough to make me think twice about it.

Here's a benefit of piracy I don't recall anyone hitting on in this thread yet. If I pirate a game, I can pretty well play it however I want, wherever I want. If I, say, buy Link to the Past on VC, I have to be in front of my Wii to play it. If I got a pirated ROM, there are any number of emulators on any number of devices which I could use to play it wherever I wanted, with features I might like such as slightly more robust save states (not that the Suspend feature of the VC is anything to complain about, but you can do more when you can save multiple files).
Anyway, I just have to bring this up, because those times when I do pirate something, it is exactly for this reason. I have plans of where or when I want to watch this or play that, and I'm not going to be able to do it if I go through legal channels.

Excitemike
06-03-2007, 03:05 PM
Well, the only dedicated independant game store in town doesn't charge less than $10 for anything, but all the second-hand stores and pawn shops are usually $5 for SNES, $3 for Genesis and $1 for NES. The flea market is usually the same.

I stand corrected. You hear that, Nintendo? The Salvation Army is handing you your ass.

Here's a benefit of piracy I don't recall anyone hitting on in this thread yet. If I pirate a game, I can pretty well play it however I want, wherever I want.

That's a pretty legitimate complaint. It's largely a technical issue, I think once everybody settles on a form of DRM that is not obtrusive things will open up a bit more. I know if I buy a DVD and Sony's Media Manager won't let me put in on my PSP, I start looking for more a more grey solution.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 03:11 PM
I stand corrected. You hear that, Nintendo? The Salvation Army is handing you your ass.

Well, it's a better value. If I still had any of those systems, that's where I'd buy. I don't have, or want a Wii, seeing as the VC is the only mildly interesting thing about it. If it wasn't such a rip-off for the VC games, I might have considered one.

Eusis
06-03-2007, 03:12 PM
I kinda figure you have a better chance of getting the games on the VC too. You know what that will have, while the flea markets... Wouldn't that be a crapshot?

PHATTOM
06-03-2007, 03:24 PM
For me, pirating is a pain in the ass. You have to find a website with ROMs and jump through hoops to register or install spyware or get bombarded with banner ads. Disc based games come with a whole other set of headaches. It's not worth my time. Five bucks is about what I pay to rent a movie for one night, and for the same price I can keep a game? No contest.

Pirating isn't that difficult, though. You download the program that emulates the system on and then download a rom from one of the eight gazillion ROM sites on the internet, all of which takes, from downloading, to installation, to playing, just a few quick minutes, even with CD Bios, unless you're using torrents. No banners, no popups, no spyware. I'm not justifying it, just saying its not a pain in the ass.

Anyways, sorry for starting a topic thats already been done. I was talking more about bootlegging current games rather than downloading a copy of Sparkster, though.

Deadguy2322
06-03-2007, 03:26 PM
I kinda figure you have a better chance of getting the games on the VC too. You know what that will have, while the flea markets... Wouldn't that be a crapshot?

I must live in Bizzarro World, but my collector friends have been making out like bandits at the Crossroads Market. Things like Lufia 2 for $5. And there are usually more games I'd want there than the anemic selection on the VC.

I guess it helps that there aren't that many collectors here in Calgary, and the ones there are are dumb enough to go to Video Game Traitor or eBay rather than mushroom hunt at Crossroads.

It also helps that most people here tend to junk old systems. I once got a Master System for free when I went to a Cash Convertors, since they didn't want to buy it, and the seller didn't want to drag it back home.

mr_bungle700
06-03-2007, 03:36 PM
The game industry has one big advantage over the film and music industries when it comes to piracy, and that's the fact that games and the hardware needed to run them get bigger and more powerful (or at least more eccentric) all the time. As rampant as piracy of older games may be, it's always going to be a challenge to pirate the new ones, especially when it comes to console games. And furthermore, with console companies now starting to build downloadable libraries of older titles the level of piracy of older games is probably going to slow down as well.

Nintendo actually seems to be doing a pretty good job to mitigate piracy, in a few ways.

1) It's impossible to emulate the Wii at this point, at least in any economically or technologically feasible way. I don't know if piracy had anything to do with the development of the Wii controller, but it turns out that it's a pretty effective way to stop people from pirating Wii games.

2) The VC is slowly reclaiming many games that were previously most easily (or only) available through piracy.

3) Their handheld systems, which are most easily pirated, are regularly getting upgrades. GBA emulation is basically perfect now, but at this point most of the newest and most exciting games are coming out on the DS, which no one has been able to emulate effectively yet. And by the time they do Nintendo will most likely have another handheld in the works anyway. And again, as with the Wii controller, having the DS have two screens and be touch sensitive works pretty well to stop people from emulating the system, even if that wasn't something they considered while designing it.

And now I have no idea where I was going with this. I guess I'm trying to say that unlike the film and music industries the game industry has a few built-in resistances to piracy that aren't easily circumvented. New games are going to be bought a great deal more often than they're going to be pirated, so the game industry probably isn't in any danger of falling to piracy any time soon.

Eusis
06-03-2007, 03:39 PM
Things like Lufia 2 for $5.
. . . I hate you.

I suppose I can't really argue when you have a good selection to get, but not everyone has that luxury. Plus how much do replacement batteries go for? In some cases, you're better off just getting the VC version so you don't have to deal with that crap (and it might really be cheaper).

But for current gen stuff? Meh. I know some people that'll do it, but I don't like it. If I want to stick it to a company (EA) or whatever, I'll just buy it used. Preferably at GameCrazy or something, GameStop's become a bloated monster as it is.

cartman414
06-03-2007, 03:49 PM
I... might have bought those. Well, no... I bought Gunstar Heroes and Wonder Boy. But I knew I'd like those and I'd never played them before. 8 dollars is certianly keeping me from buying anything out of nostalgia, though. It's enough to make me think twice about it.

Here's a benefit of piracy I don't recall anyone hitting on in this thread yet. If I pirate a game, I can pretty well play it however I want, wherever I want. If I, say, buy Link to the Past on VC, I have to be in front of my Wii to play it. If I got a pirated ROM, there are any number of emulators on any number of devices which I could use to play it wherever I wanted, with features I might like such as slightly more robust save states (not that the Suspend feature of the VC is anything to complain about, but you can do more when you can save multiple files).

Not to mention fast forward frameskipping. So useful for time-consuming RPGs. Shaves hours off of Dragon Warrior 7. (Which I played off of my own legit copy, for the record.)

PHATTOM
06-03-2007, 04:58 PM
3) Their handheld systems, which are most easily pirated, are regularly getting upgrades. GBA emulation is basically perfect now, but at this point most of the newest and most exciting games are coming out on the DS, which no one has been able to emulate effectively yet. And by the time they do Nintendo will most likely have another handheld in the works anyway. And again, as with the Wii controller, having the DS have two screens and be touch sensitive works pretty well to stop people from emulating the system, even if that wasn't something they considered while designing it.

And now I have no idea where I was going with this. I guess I'm trying to say that unlike the film and music industries the game industry has a few built-in resistances to piracy that aren't easily circumvented. New games are going to be bought a great deal more often than they're going to be pirated, so the game industry probably isn't in any danger of falling to piracy any time soon.

But its easy to play DS ROMS on the DS (see the R4, which is becoming more and more popular). Same thing applies to the PSP. In fact, quite a number of people I know don't even own a single DS or PSP disc; they just play bootleg games.

Consoles' in-built resistances to piracy are there now, even though it was easy to play burnt games on the 360 with no physical modifications just a bit ago, and it will again, but the internet is a form of anarchy that annihilates everything in its path. When installing/downloading games to your hard drive becomes prevalent, I imagine its going to be only a short while before hackers figure out how to get bootlegged games installed by hooking up with your PC, negating the need for a boot disc at all, and rising prices could lead to more and more people taking those options, just like what happened to movies and music.

jovewolf
06-03-2007, 05:04 PM
1) It's impossible to emulate the Wii at this point, at least in any economically or technologically feasible way. I don't know if piracy had anything to do with the development of the Wii controller, but it turns out that it's a pretty effective way to stop people from pirating Wii games.


This would be true, except for the fact that the Wii Remote itself works perfectly well on any computer with a bluetooth adaptor. I've played around with it a little myself - not for piracy, but as an alternate mouse and whatnot.

Mind you I haven't *seen* a Wii emulator yet, but that doesn't mean one isn't in the works.

PHATTOM
06-03-2007, 05:25 PM
This would be true, except for the fact that the Wii Remote itself works perfectly well on any computer with a bluetooth adaptor. I've played around with it a little myself - not for piracy, but as an alternate mouse and whatnot.

Mind you I haven't *seen* a Wii emulator yet, but that doesn't mean one isn't in the works.

I'm sure playing Wii games on PC is in the works, but they haven't figured out to play PS2 games on PC at a proper pace on affordable hardware yet. However, ROMs for every Wii games are super easy to find. Its only a matter of time before its security gets cracked and games are easily burnt onto affordable DVDs. When it comes to playing bootlegs for the Wii and 360, all you'll need is a pretty cheap spindle of double layer DVD-Rs. PS3's potentially gigantic game sizes/Blu-Ray burners not in general consumers hands could deter that happening to its own console.

The thing with bootlegging now is that it was once something you had to go out and search hard for, and then buy extra hardware, all of which you may never know even existed. But now with people getting ever more closely connected to absolutely anything going on anywhere, knowing about emulation tips will become more and more prevalent as times goes on, and thats by internet time. The people I mentioned before who play DS and PSP bootlegs aren't even that connected to whats happening in gaming; finding out what games to pirate takes more work than the actual pirating.

Edit: Throw in the heavily increased bandwidth capabilities that Comcast and others are developing to be released within the very near future, downloading next-gen games could be as quick as downloading an album.

Red Hedgehog
06-03-2007, 05:39 PM
I suppose I can't really argue when you have a good selection to get, but not everyone has that luxury. Plus how much do replacement batteries go for?

About $2. Though you need the right tools to open the cartridge, get the old battery out and install the new one. It isn't very difficult, but it can be a schlep.

And I was going to post that I hate him as well, but if you look long enough, you find some good deal. My complete Valkyrie Profile I got for $5 about two years ago ranks up there.

mr_bungle700
06-03-2007, 06:17 PM
Way to ruin my arguments guys!

You make good points though, and bring up the fact that I totally forgot about people downloading copies of games to play on their actual consoles instead of their computers. Still, I think that the majority of gamers don't have the patience/resources/urge to take that approach. I know I never did, and I'm not exactly a piracy-free type person. And besides, at least if someone is doing that it means that they already own the console in question, so they've invested at least some money into the industry and have probably legitimately purchased a few games for it.

As for the Wii thing: I had no idea. That's amusing. It'll probably be a while before people are playing Wii games on their PCs though. As phattom said, there isn't even an effective PS2 emulator out there yet. By the time the Wii has been perfectly emulated we'll most likely have moved on to the next generation of consoles anyway.

cartman414
06-03-2007, 07:09 PM
Wouldn't PS2 emulation have more to do with its complicated hardware though?

ozacrot
06-03-2007, 07:49 PM
Not to mention fast forward frameskipping. So useful for time-consuming RPGs. Shaves hours off of Dragon Warrior 7. (Which I played off of my own legit copy, for the record.)

Without wading into difficult ethical questions, I concur on this point - PS emulation was the only way I would ever have finished my copy of DW7. I also like that one of the PS emulators had a hotkey to skip the "interrogation room" scenes in Xenogears with a single tap.

ShakeWell
06-03-2007, 08:34 PM
Don't Copy That Floppy.

That's one of the WORST PSAs I've ever seen. But it's still hilarious.

Guy
06-03-2007, 08:42 PM
I got into an argument with some guy in a forum over game piracy. He had the delusions of entitlement thing going pretty hard. His whole argument consisted of "I would never pay $50 for a game, so I automatically deserve it" and "you aren't physically shoplifting out of a Wal-Mart, so it's okay".

Vahn16
06-03-2007, 08:58 PM
Did he say why he'd never pay $50 for a game? You've got me really curious about what is almost assuredly a baseless argument on that guy's part.

Guy
06-03-2007, 09:12 PM
Did he say why he'd never pay $50 for a game? You've got me really curious about what is almost assuredly a baseless argument on that guy's part.

He was a business major or something and used his boundless professional expertise to state all the reasons that companies could afford to charge a lot less. I forget what they were, though. Really, though, it was mostly petty rationalization. He also said during the same argument that he wouldn't pay $15 for a music CD.

Sanagi
06-04-2007, 12:24 AM
What I really want is an NSF player on my iPod. Is that so wrong?

cartman414
06-04-2007, 01:38 AM
I do agree that $15 is a little too much for a normal length (read: not double disc) CD, though. $12-13 ought to be the ceiling for most.

bobservo
06-04-2007, 06:51 AM
I'm against your modern, game-entitled-teenager piracy, but in the cases where piracy is the only way to play old games that are out of print, discontinued, and/or unavailable due to the rarity of a platform on which to play them (especially old computer games), I feel that it can be justified. And with the Virtual Console and Gametap, this is becoming less and less of a problem.

Deadguy2322
06-04-2007, 07:21 AM
About $2. Though you need the right tools to open the cartridge, get the old battery out and install the new one. It isn't very difficult, but it can be a schlep.

And I was going to post that I hate him as well, but if you look long enough, you find some good deal. My complete Valkyrie Profile I got for $5 about two years ago ranks up there.

Well if you hate me for Lufia II, how about the US Dreamcast copy of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 that I got for free?

Balrog
06-04-2007, 07:28 AM
What I really want is an NSF player on my iPod. Is that so wrong?

If loving NSF is wrong, I don't wanna be right.

Torgo
06-04-2007, 07:32 AM
Well if you hate me for Lufia II, how about the US Dreamcast copy of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 that I got for free?
Can't be any more awesome then the copy of Chrono Trigger I borrowed from my brother that he ultimately just let me keep.

Excitemike
06-04-2007, 07:36 AM
I once willed a copy of Earthbound to appear using the power of my mind.

Deadguy2322
06-04-2007, 07:42 AM
I once willed a copy of Earthbound to appear using the power of my mind.

Now that is impressive.

djSyndrome
06-04-2007, 07:44 AM
Well if you hate me for Lufia II, how about the US Dreamcast copy of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 that I got for free?

Sounds a lot better than the $75 I spent for a Japanese copy of MvC2, only to later discover that I can't unlock everything because it requires taking your VMU to an arcade to obtain the proper points.

Deadguy2322
06-04-2007, 07:51 AM
Sounds a lot better than the $75 I spent for a Japanese copy of MvC2, only to later discover that I can't unlock everything because it requires taking your VMU to an arcade to obtain the proper points.

I feel your pain. Try to find a DC browser-friendly site where you can download a save. If I stumble across one, I'll PM you.

Either that, or use a Game Shark or Exploder to give yourself the points you need.

djSyndrome
06-04-2007, 07:56 AM
I feel your pain. Try to find a DC browser-friendly site where you can download a save. If I stumble across one, I'll PM you.

Either that, or use a Game Shark or Exploder to give yourself the points you need.

I've long since given up on the game. Mostly because I absolutely sucked at it.

Torgo
06-04-2007, 08:01 AM
Sounds a lot better than the $75 I spent for a Japanese copy of MvC2, only to later discover that I can't unlock everything because it requires taking your VMU to an arcade to obtain the proper points.
Crap, are you serious? Makes me all the more glad I never went that route.

(And seventy-five bucks? Dang. Imports must have been fetching a high price at the time. In my casual observations on ebay the past year, I've generally noticed that PAL and Japanese versions of games like MvC2 and Power Stone 2 are generally cheaper then their NTSC brothers.)

Don't even get me started on the absolutely mind-numbingly insane price the PS2 version goes for.

Deadguy2322
06-04-2007, 08:01 AM
I've long since given up on the game. Mostly because I absolutely sucked at it.

Oddly, some of the better unlockable characters can help with this.

Not to mention Tron Bonne is one of them. Nothing beats sending servbots out to super combo your enemies.

Torgo
06-04-2007, 08:06 AM
While I do like the Super-Crazy-Excessive nature of MvC2, in a lot of ways I like the original better.

Except Onslaught. I can't begin to express the loathing I have for that fight. I am convinced that he was created as he was for the sole purpose of sucking quarters out of people. When you factor in the excessively arcane methods needed to unlock some of the characters in the DC version... screw that.

Deadguy2322
06-04-2007, 08:13 AM
While I do like the Super-Crazy-Excessive nature of MvC2, in a lot of ways I like the original better.

Except Onslaught. I can't begin to express the loathing I have for that fight. I am convinced that he was created as he was for the sole purpose of sucking quarters out of people. When you factor in the excessively arcane methods needed to unlock some of the characters in the DC version... screw that.

The only combination of characters I can actually beat him with is Ken, Iron Man and War Machine. And that requires more luck than skill.

Kolbe
06-05-2007, 11:34 AM
While I do like the Super-Crazy-Excessive nature of MvC2, in a lot of ways I like the original better.

Except Onslaught. I can't begin to express the loathing I have for that fight. I am convinced that he was created as he was for the sole purpose of sucking quarters out of people. When you factor in the excessively arcane methods needed to unlock some of the characters in the DC version... screw that.

Onslaught was a piece of cake. Spider-man would beat the first form with basic, chain combo. Then, Captain America did the rest using Charging Star agasint Onslaught's sweeping claw (with the shield, Cap recieves no damage at all).

That said, my favorite of the series is still Marvel Supe Heroes, not because the vs. series isn't good, but because it was the last fighting game with Marvel characters that made sense.

Back to topic, piracy here in Mexico is overwhelming! I mean, even Jack Sparrow would be scared. When FFXII came out, I couldn't find a single original copy for about a week or two. Pirate copies of the game where EVERYWHERE. That's, in part, game store's fault, 'cause here you can charge as much as you like for a game, and GamePlanet (the most established franchise all over the country) sell games as high as $80 or $90. Add that to the fact that a job is not as well paid here as it should be. Sure, you can find fair prices, but you have to look hard, and many people still think that games are that expensive.

Red Hedgehog
06-05-2007, 02:12 PM
Well if you hate me for Lufia II, how about the US Dreamcast copy of Marvel Vs Capcom 2 that I got for free?

I don't really hate you. I mean, I paid $25 for a copy of Lufia II with the manual, so I don't feel awful. Now, if you had, say, gotten Suikoden II or Snatcher for free, I might have to unleash my wrath.

Eusis
06-05-2007, 02:19 PM
Oh yeah, I got Snatcher with Sonic CD for 10 bucks in 2002 from someone I knew online.

Man, there went my right to hate people for finding (semi) rare games I want for dirt cheap.

Deadguy2322
06-05-2007, 03:04 PM
Almost my entire Dreamcast collection makes me a target of hate. 60 games, mostly harder to find, and I only paid full retail for one game. Everything else was $30 or less, usually under $10.


The one full-price game? Heavy Metal: Geomatrix.

Go ahead laugh, but I am a longtime fan of Heavy Metal magazine and Simon Bisley, and it is a fun game.

Cheapest not-free game? Mat Hoffman Pro BMX, bought on clearance at Future Shop for $0.17 CDN. Yes, 17 CENTS. Worth every penny.

Kolbe
06-06-2007, 08:30 AM
I bought Final Fantasy IX and Chrono Cross for $5, Soul Edge for $10, Jet Grind Radio for $3 and Breath of Fire III for $18.

Those were good deals.

Torgo
06-06-2007, 08:36 AM
Eh, three bucks for JGR isn't much cheaper then the going ebay rates. (I see an excellent condition copy with a 'BUY IT NOW' price of nine bucks.)

Alternatively, when the crap did Breath of Fire III get so expensive? I mean, I recall what little of it I played was pretty good, but I'm not sure those prices are justified.

Swordian
06-06-2007, 08:43 AM
I bought my new copy of Earthbound for $6. In hindsight, I wish I had bought the other 3 copies on the shelf.

TheSL
06-06-2007, 09:01 AM
I got Earthbound for free when one of my friends just wanted to clear out some closet space. Also, I got MvC2 when Dreamcast was on the way out for $12 new. Oh, and an import copy of Shenmue 2 from Europe for $27 after shipping right when it was first released.

Kolbe
06-06-2007, 09:08 AM
That reminds me. I got Shenmue II for Xbox for $8, which is not bad.

Mightyblue
06-06-2007, 09:11 AM
Got a copy of Suikoden II for 10 bucks four years ago at one of those big electronics clearinghouses. I was a bit strapped for cash at that point, so I sold it for about 10x that on eBay. :P

This was before I knew it was any good, and all I knew about it was that it was extremely rare.

So yeah, I was young, and stuuuupid.

Kolbe
06-06-2007, 09:20 AM
...
...
o_o

Torgo
06-06-2007, 09:46 AM
Snap, Mightblue. Hopefully the money at least went to something necessarily to life, like food or prescription drugs.

Alternatively, I've been itching to play the game again lately and, much to my horror, that one hundred dollar price tag is starting to look reasonable. Fortunately, my good sense wins out.

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 09:51 AM
That reminds me. I got Shenmue II for Xbox for $8, which is not bad.

I remember seeing Shenmue II for $5 at Gamestop last year. I wonder if its still there since I only got to play I.

Torgo
06-06-2007, 09:58 AM
I would think, at this point, that playing either Shenmue games would be a double-edged, bittersweet experience. On one had, they're fairly good games. On the other, they're only two pieces of a plot we'll never ever in a million years see the end to.

Oh well.

(That said, the DC PAL Shenmue II is something I keep an eye out for. If I want it that bad I'm probably going to just have to ignore the burning flares going off in my brain as I pay sixty or seventy dollars for it. Also: In an effort to cut down on clutter, I regret throwing away my case to the first game.)

Mightyblue
06-06-2007, 10:04 AM
I love how this has transformed from piracy to how cheap we acquired rare titles. There's something ironic in that, and I'm just laughing thinking about it.

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 10:05 AM
I would think, at this point, that playing either Shenmue games would be a double-edged, bittersweet experience. On one had, they're fairly good games. On the other, they're only two pieces of a plot we'll never ever in a million years see the end to.

Oh well.

(That said, the DC PAL Shenmue II is something I keep an eye out for. If I want it that bad I'm probably going to just have to ignore the burning flares going off in my brain as I pay sixty or seventy dollars for it. Also: In an effort to cut down on clutter, I regret throwing away my case to the first game.)

I KNOW. I really wanted to know what was going to happen to Ryo. I actually enjoyed the first one a lot even the wierd dialogue and getting lost running around the town. The game is so expensive to make though...

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 10:06 AM
I love how this has transformed from piracy to how cheap we acquired rare titles. There's something ironic in that, and I'm just laughing thinking about it.

Great discussions lead to tangents.

Torgo
06-06-2007, 10:12 AM
I love how this has transformed from piracy to how cheap we acquired rare titles. There's something ironic in that, and I'm just laughing thinking about it.
I see it too, and I couldn't be happier about it.

But yeah, admittedly I never finished the first Shenmue myself. I've long since wanted to pick it up again, but... well, it would look like crap on my current tv. When I move and I have to likely ditch this thing, maybe I'll give it a whirl again. One thing I have done is keep my discs in excellent condition.

What is frightening is that somewhere, in the recesses of my being, there lies a completest that would totally rebuy Shenmue just to get the case again, then sell off the discs and instructions books of my previous copy. I mean, after resale I wouldn't take that much of a hit, right?

Right guys?

Little Sampson
06-06-2007, 10:14 AM
The only remotely rare game I own is Boktai, which I got for $3.

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 10:15 AM
I see it too, and I couldn't be happier about it.

But yeah, admittedly I never finished the first Shenmue myself. I've long since wanted to pick it up again, but... well, it would look like crap on my current tv. When I move and I have to likely ditch this thing, maybe I'll give it a whirl again. One thing I have done is keep my discs in excellent condition.

What is frightening is that somewhere, in the recesses of my being, there lies a completest that would totally rebuy Shenmue just to get the case again, then sell off the discs and instructions books of my previous copy. I mean, after resale I wouldn't take that much of a hit, right?

Right guys?

Well what sucked for me was I beat the entire game and right when I got to the ending clips the disc was scratched (since I bought it used) and so I had to log on to some fansite and download the whole ending and watch it later. Good thing yours is in good condition.

I say you get the case, if thats what you really want.

Torgo
06-06-2007, 10:17 AM
Once again, like Suikoden II and importing DC shooters, good sense and a present desire to get on with my life wins the day.

ArugulaZ
06-06-2007, 10:22 AM
I don't really hate you. I mean, I paid $25 for a copy of Lufia II with the manual, so I don't feel awful. Now, if you had, say, gotten Suikoden II or Snatcher for free, I might have to unleash my wrath.

I bought Suikoden II for $8 at a supermarket which was clearing out their old stock of rented games! Is that worthy of your contempt?

(I found Snatcher as well, but that was almost a decade ago, and I wound up sending it overseas in trade for some Japanese Saturn games)

JR

Mightyblue
06-06-2007, 10:23 AM
But you've still got that little voice bouncing around in the back of your brain, right?

Every so often I'm tempted to buy figurines and Gundam model kits (yeah, I'm a nerd, go figure :P) and I have to stomp on that little child part of me that likes to take things apart and blow stuff up.

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 10:29 AM
But you've still got that little voice bouncing around in the back of your brain, right?

Every so often I'm tempted to buy figurines and Gundam model kits (yeah, I'm a nerd, go figure :P) and I have to stomp on that little child part of me that likes to take things apart and blow stuff up.

I remember those. When I was on a trip to San Francisco about 2 years ago, I went to their little shopping mall called Japantown and they had every type of Gundam model kits, but I personally don't have patience to put those things together.

ArugulaZ
06-06-2007, 10:30 AM
Cheapest not-free game? Mat Hoffman Pro BMX, bought on clearance at Future Shop for $0.17 CDN. Yes, 17 CENTS. Worth a penny.

There, I fixed that sentence for you. I bought that game for the Dreamcast, hoping for the same thrills I got from its cousin Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2. After playing that and Kelly Slater Pro Surfer, I quickly learned that all Activision sports games are not created equal. In the case of that dumb surfing game, they're not even close to equal.

JR

Kirin
06-06-2007, 11:21 AM
Going with the new topic of this thread, I found C:SotN at a used music CD store for $5 back when it didn't look like it would ever be re-released, so that was pretty sweet.

Also, I buy figures and Gundam kits all the time, what are you people talking about? Like I was supposed to outgrow plastic toys when I turned 30 or something? Pshaw. (On the contrary, I have more disposable income now...)

Kolbe
06-06-2007, 11:27 AM
I KNOW. I really wanted to know what was going to happen to Ryo. I actually enjoyed the first one a lot even the wierd dialogue and getting lost running around the town.

Don't forget the "Ryobocop vs. corners" factor.

Deadguy2322
06-06-2007, 01:49 PM
There, I fixed that sentence for you. I bought that game for the Dreamcast, hoping for the same thrills I got from its cousin Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2. After playing that and Kelly Slater Pro Surfer, I quickly learned that all Activision sports games are not created equal. In the case of that dumb surfing game, they're not even close to equal.

JR

Actually, it isn't THAT bad. Of course, you also have to remember that it was supposed to come out right after THPS 1, but got delayed. Compared to THPS 1, it's better than if you compare to THPS 2, which they have never topped, and likely never will. It was better than Dave Mirra Freestyle BMX, which I bought on the recommendation of a friend.

Of course, after telling him how much that game blew he informed me that he really only meant the 2nd game was good.

Calorie Mate
06-06-2007, 04:20 PM
I remember those. When I was on a trip to San Francisco about 2 years ago, I went to their little shopping mall called Japantown and they had every type of Gundam model kits, but I personally don't have patience to put those things together.

Man, I'm really disappointed everytime I go to Japantown. It's, like, one small mall, and I'm not really interested in just about anything within it. I wish it was at least a LITTLE more like Chinatown.

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 05:15 PM
Man, I'm really disappointed everytime I go to Japantown. It's, like, one small mall, and I'm not really interested in just about anything within it. I wish it was at least a LITTLE more like Chinatown.

I liked to pick up video game soundtracks there for REALLY cheap. The sushi is great too, Isobune with the boats and all is fantastic. They should build a giant gaming arcade there with Japanese imports, now THAT would make it great.

Parish
06-06-2007, 05:48 PM
Yeah, how dare they! It's not like they own those games or-- wait, they DO own those games, that's right.

...and if it wasn't for emulation, I never would have played Seiken Densetsu 3. And, I would probably still think it was the greatest game I missed out on and the pinnacle of the series--instead of the first tiny step in the wrong direction from SoM.

Thanks a lot, fan translation. I hate you.
Speaking of Secret of Mana, thanks to everyone for the reminder that time flows like a river and history repeats itself. Because we sure haven't seen this argument before!!!!

alexb
06-06-2007, 06:21 PM
Where were you back when we were still on page 2, back when you could still make a difference?

blitzchamp
06-06-2007, 07:03 PM
Where were you back when we were still on page 2, back when you could still make a difference?

He was obviously writing for 1up.

reibeatall
06-06-2007, 07:52 PM
Back on topic to the off topic, I got a copy of Ogre Battle: Limited Edition for the PS for 5 bucks, and a copy of Intelligent Cube for $30. Then I got Alundra 2, Wild Arms, and Suikoden for $10 total.

Nothing big, though.

Red Hedgehog
06-06-2007, 08:57 PM
What is frightening is that somewhere, in the recesses of my being, there lies a completest that would totally rebuy Shenmue just to get the case again, then sell off the discs and instructions books of my previous copy. I mean, after resale I wouldn't take that much of a hit, right?

If you look around (read: in brick and mortar stores, not online/eBay), Shenmue can be had for very cheap. I picked up two copies for $5 or $6 a piece.

Red Hedgehog
06-06-2007, 09:01 PM
My biggest regret is a Suikoden II one. Shortly after I got my PS2, I compiled a list of good Playstation games (since I never had one). I went into a local used game store and someone had obviously recently traded in their collection as there were a bunch of RPGs and other worthy games there. Suikoden I and II were there at $20 and $30 respectively. But I didn't know much about them, so I ended up getting Einhander and Final Fantasy Tactics (neither of which have I yet played) for reasonable prices, but man am I kicking myself for not getting Suikoden II.

Torgo
06-06-2007, 09:03 PM
If you look around (read: in brick and mortar stores, not online/eBay), Shenmue can be had for very cheap. I picked up two copies for $5 or $6 a piece.
Any tips? I know of no stores these days that sells Dreamcast games anymore. If I did, I would be so there.

reibeatall
06-06-2007, 09:04 PM
Go to GameCrazy. They have a 2 for $5 sale going on right now.

Red Hedgehog
06-06-2007, 09:08 PM
Also, try mom and pop or local stores. Or stores that do used music, movies, and games. Those places plus GameCrazy are where I find most of my older stuff nowadays. I really should try yard/garage sales again, I just have to be prepared to not find anything for long bouts in between getting 20 NES games for 50 cents a piece.

Torgo
06-06-2007, 09:08 PM
Apparently there are two of these 'Game Crazy' stores relatively close to my home.

I may have to look into this and give these locations a call.

Kolbe
06-07-2007, 08:44 AM
I wish there were "Game Crazy" stores in my town T_T

Falselogic
08-31-2011, 04:25 PM
I really liked the idea of converting this thread to the what treasures did you find while video game/ garage sale shopping thread.

Too bad it rolled off the first page because no one remembered that was what it was about.

I recently found a full boxed copy of Quest For Glory 2 (with all inserts) at a thrift store. I picked it up for $5!

The map inside was/is beautiful, beautiful

Tefari
08-31-2011, 04:31 PM
Oh god false, you're a monster that cannot be stopped!

When I was working at the thrift store a few weeks ago I saw an NES with about 10 games, but it was reserved already and didn't have a power cable in any case. I still wanted it though, IIRC SNES power cables work for the NES right?

Falselogic
08-31-2011, 04:35 PM
Oh god false, you're a monster that cannot be stopped!

When I was working at the thrift store a few weeks ago I saw an NES with about 10 games, but it was reserved already and didn't have a power cable in any case. I still wanted it though, IIRC SNES power cables work for the NES right?

I think they did at least the old school screw in R/f (?) cable did. What were the ten games?

Tefari
08-31-2011, 04:40 PM
I think they did at least the old school screw in R/f (?) cable did. What were the ten games?

Mario 3, Zelda 1 grey cart, and a bunch of stuff that was really unmemorable I guess because I can't recall the rest. I do remember it was stacked up high and bundled with clear packing tape though.