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reibeatall
06-20-2007, 03:48 PM
So not only has the game been BANNED in the UK, it's also been given the dreaded AO rating. Because of the rating, Nintendo's making a stupid move and not letting it be published on their system. Also, no B&M retailer will really carry it if it's rated AO.

Looks like Take Two just wasted millions of dollars.

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 03:53 PM
I haven't kept up, do you mean Nintendo's "not" letting it be published?

alexb
06-20-2007, 03:55 PM
Well, this is certainly a clusterfuck, that's for sure. If it were anyone but Rockstar, things might be different, but it's probably their reputation biting them in the ass again.

Evil Dead Junkie
06-20-2007, 03:55 PM
I'm almost relieved when I heard they where putting Manhunt on the Wi I could easily imagine it being the most gleefully sociopathic expirence ever (that's not a knock).

I mean its one thing to press a button and watch someone drag a rusty screwdriver through a stomach wall, its another to do it yourself.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 03:56 PM
I haven't kept up, do you mean Nintendo's "not" letting it be published?

Yeah, I meant "not." Typo fixed.

Nintendo has a policy of not allowing anything rated AO to be published on their system. Even though they're trying to get away from the "only for kids" image, they don't want something that's only for adults on their systems.

poetfox
06-20-2007, 03:56 PM
I'm just glad all these stores and rating bodies know better than I do what I can't and can handle in a video game.

alexb
06-20-2007, 03:57 PM
I really feel like there needs to be more transparency to the rating process. I've read that some pressure group campaigned to get the game an AO rating before anyone had even seen or played it.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 03:59 PM
I'm almost relieved when I heard they where putting Manhunt on the Wi I could easily imagine it being the most gleefully sociopathic expirence ever (that's not a knock).

I mean its one thing to press a button and watch someone drag a rusty screwdriver through a stomach wall, its another to do it yourself.

That's exactly it. I really wanted to try that game, just to see how it could be. I know it'd be the kiss of death, but I really want Rockstar to stick to their guns and have it be AO. BUT, I know that T2 is doing pretty bad, so I doubt it'll happen.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 04:00 PM
I really feel like there needs to be more transparency to the rating process. I've read that some pressure group campaigned to get the game an AO rating before anyone had even seen or played it.

We should start a petition to make them change the rating to M.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 04:02 PM
Yeah, I meant "not." Typo fixed.

Nintendo has a policy of not allowing anything rated AO to be published on their system. Even though they're trying to get away from the "only for kids" image, they don't want something that's only for adults on their systems.

Hey it's not just Nintendo. Sony feels the same way (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/20/nintendo-and-sony-wont-touch-manhunt-2-with-ao-rating/).

So stick that in your "Sony's for 'Mature' gamers" pipe.

Also now that it won't be on Wii, PSP, or PS2, it's either gonna get neutered or putdown.

Excitemike
06-20-2007, 05:20 PM
I really feel like there needs to be more transparency to the rating process. I've read that some pressure group campaigned to get the game an AO rating before anyone had even seen or played it.

There needs to be a greater distinction between M and AO. M rated games can only be bought those 17 and over. AO rated games can only be bought by those 18 and over. Those 12 months make a big difference, I guess.

alexb
06-20-2007, 05:24 PM
You mean so that it's easier to get a hard R instead of an X, to use analogous movie terms?

Squall
06-20-2007, 05:32 PM
Last time this came up, Nintendo published the game and Sony demanded edited content. And BMXXX sucked anyways. So that sort of goes against the AO rating theory anyways, doesn't it?

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 05:48 PM
No. BMX XXX was rated M.

ArugulaZ
06-20-2007, 05:50 PM
So not only has the game been BANNED in the UK, it's also been given the dreaded AO rating. Because of the rating, Nintendo's making a stupid move and not letting it be published on their system. Also, no B&M retailer will really carry it if it's rated AO.

Looks like Take Two just wasted millions of dollars.

They'll get no sympathy from me. None. They knew what they were getting into with this exploitative, desperate sleaze, and they deserve to get burned because of it. If you want to sell Faces of Death: The Video Game, fine, but don't start whining when the industry gives it the rating it deserves. Also, kudos to Nintendo for putting the brakes on this garbage. The Wii has earned mainstream acceptance and a game like Manhunt 2 would instantly have turned the public against it. You want to make disgusting sleaze, you take that to the Playstation where it belongs.

JR

sraymonds
06-20-2007, 05:52 PM
Was anyone here planning on getting Manhunt 2?

ArugulaZ
06-20-2007, 05:54 PM
HELL no. I just love watching Take-Two twist in the wind.

JR

Sarcasmorator
06-20-2007, 06:09 PM
Oh yeah. can't wait till Take Two goes under! Then I won't have to play awesome Civilization IV expansions or look forward to BioShock anymore!

Excitemike
06-20-2007, 06:19 PM
Was anyone here planning on getting Manhunt 2?

Not planning on it, but if it got good reviews I would have considered it.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 06:38 PM
Oh yeah. can't wait till Take Two goes under! Then I won't have to play awesome Civilization IV expansions or look forward to BioShock anymore!

Didn't they just close down their New York office?

Sarcasmorator
06-20-2007, 07:05 PM
Yeah, and they shook up their board of directors in March.

ShakeWell
06-20-2007, 07:07 PM
They'll get no sympathy from me. None. They knew what they were getting into with this exploitative, desperate sleaze, and they deserve to get burned because of it. If you want to sell Faces of Death: The Video Game, fine, but don't start whining when the industry gives it the rating it deserves. Also, kudos to Nintendo for putting the brakes on this garbage. The Wii has earned mainstream acceptance and a game like Manhunt 2 would instantly have turned the public against it. You want to make disgusting sleaze, you take that to the Playstation where it belongs.

JR

Comparing this game to Faces of Death is hardly fair, since Faces is a documentary, filled with footage of actual, real people actually, really dying. Manhunt 2 is a simulation, with graphics that aren't exactly cartoony, but a far cry from even resembling a real person.

I was looking forward to it. I seem to be one of the ten people who enjoyed the first one. I just hope they don't make them cut too much out. I only say that because I think that Rockstar is probably (maybe, perhaps) held to a different standard because of the material they choose to publish and the attention they garner in the mainstream. No thanks to Jack "I Hate Freedom" Thompson.

Torgo
06-20-2007, 07:26 PM
I'm of two minds about this.

On one hand, this was going to happen eventually. Some mid- or high-profile game was going to come along and challenge the definitions of ratings and what people will accept from a violent game experience. I consider it part of the growing pains of the industry.

On the other hand, I look at the game itself, its developer, and the current political climate, and all I can feel is a desire to kick Take Two and Rockstar in the nuts and tell them they deserve it.

What this is about is accountability and responsibility. Rockstar knows the thin ice it, and by association the rest of the industry, stands with certain social circles and people in power. Yet they go ahead and make this title anyway, a brutally violent game about being brutally violent. Yeah, Rockstar, we all know you like to push the envelope. It's cute and all, and we defend GTA and Bully (the latter of which didn't even need it), but how about toning it down a bit while the industry has so much legislation looming over its head. Nope, sorry, Rockstar is all about acting like its namesake and pushing the limits, baby! Piss off.

And since Rockstar is incapable of acting responsibly, Sony and Nintendo have had to step in and do it for them. There's a reason why they're laying the hammer down on this,* and that's because throwing their support behind Rockstar would likely be nailing the coffin of the industry's autonomy... or at lining up the nails and handing governments the hammer.

Its a shame this has to even be an issue at all, but its inevitability aside, I feel no pity for Rockstar or Take Two in this matter.

*Which, by the way, this is not witch hunt of this particular game. Nintendo and Sony are not interested in having AO games on their hardware period.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 07:36 PM
They'll get no sympathy from me. None. They knew what they were getting into with this exploitative, desperate sleaze, and they deserve to get burned because of it. If you want to sell Faces of Death: The Video Game, fine, but don't start whining when the industry gives it the rating it deserves. Also, kudos to Nintendo for putting the brakes on this garbage. The Wii has earned mainstream acceptance and a game like Manhunt 2 would instantly have turned the public against it. You want to make disgusting sleaze, you take that to the Playstation where it belongs.

JR

Yikes. I'm sorry to get a little a mean but comments like this is what makes me take back thoughts of, "No, our generation are not going to be the same as every, somehow-someway, despite being exposed to so many intellectual ideas and people, stale/backward/retarded thinking sellout generation thats come before us." And then...

How many Face of Death videos have made you go kill people?

The game looked to be just a whatever game, maybe cool in some regards, bland/shortcoming in others, much like the first, but I'm sure a lot of people here would have tested it out, like testing out Mortal Kombat was a requirement to everybody, even if it was below you (because it was kinda shitty in comparison to the competition) or whatever (I was a little kid at the time of Mortal Kombat, so thats my excuse for enjoying it all the way through Ultimate MK3. Furthermore, despite conservative thinking's logic that I would, I never killed/harmed anybody because of the game. Neither did I forget proper protection during sex because of the jitterbug or the Rolling Stones or DMX or Britney Spears, nor did anyone I know).

chocogaz
06-20-2007, 07:57 PM
Pity, my manager already had this game paid off in full. Hopefully it'll come out (edited or no) for it's fans, wherever they may be.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 07:58 PM
I'm of two minds about this.

On one hand, this was going to happen eventually. Some mid- or high-profile game was going to come along and challenge the definitions of ratings and what people will accept from a violent game experience. I consider it part of the growing pains of the industry.

On the other hand, I look at the game itself, its developer, and the current political climate, and all I can feel is a desire to kick Take Two and Rockstar in the nuts and tell them they deserve it.

What this is about is accountability and responsibility. Rockstar knows the thin ice it, and by association the rest of the industry, stands with certain social circles and people in power. Yet they go ahead and make this title anyway, a brutally violent game about being brutally violent. Yeah, Rockstar, we all know you like to push the envelope. It's cute and all, and we defend GTA and Bully (the latter of which didn't even need it), but how about toning it down a bit while the industry has so much legislation looming over its head. Nope, sorry, Rockstar is all about acting like its namesake and pushing the limits, baby! Piss off.

And since Rockstar is incapable of acting responsibly, Sony and Nintendo have had to step in and do it for them. There's a reason why they're laying the hammer down on this,* and that's because throwing their support behind Rockstar would likely be nailing the coffin of the industry's autonomy... or at lining up the nails and handing governments the hammer.

Its a shame this has to even be an issue at all, but its inevitability aside, I feel no pity for Rockstar or Take Two in this matter.

*Which, by the way, this is not witch hunt of this particular game. Nintendo and Sony are not interested in having AO games on their hardware period.


Why should they have to tone it down? It has the "Adults Only" rating, making it difficult to obtain, and even if a little kid, whom of which is a lot smarter than people seem to think them as, the whole hoopla behind the game being so extreme and bad and whatnot would help engrave in their apparently incapable of logical thinking minds that the acts shown in this game might not be so smart to do in the real world. Clockwork Orange was never censored despite being shutdown in England, where a few instances of extreme crime copied from the movie by some people who probably had problems before they saw it led to the film being banned until the year 2000 there. I don't think I know anyone whom committed any crimes because of that movie, either during its initial run or since. Same goes for the Taxi Driver, Nirvana's "Polly", Black Sabbath songs, Eminem, NWA, Ice-T, and a ton more, all pieces of work that have violent imagery/themes/implications/whatever and which resulted in a select few of the eight gazillion trillion who did interact with them committing acts of violence.

Legislation has the done its job, which is informing the audience that this a work that will probably be considered extreme to most people. Getting your hands on this becomes difficult, much like a little trying to rent an X movie or buying a porno nowadays. Again, this should help leave an impression on you that drilling a hole through someone's head is not in the best interest of you or the other person.

Yet again, the video game industry shows its immaturity despite growing in the shadows of other forms of entertainment making the same bogus decisions. I doubt this will do anything to stall any projects coming out/being planned, but I still think this should be allowed to be released.

Psyael
06-20-2007, 07:58 PM
Yeah, I meant "not." Typo fixed.

Nintendo has a policy of not allowing anything rated AO to be published on their system. Even though they're trying to get away from the "only for kids" image, they don't want something that's only for adults on their systems.
There's a reason for this, obviously. You have to do something pretty obscene to get an AO rating, considering how far God of War and GTA have pushed Mature. And the reason for the ESRB is so that Nintendo and others don't arbitrarily choose which games are allowed and not allowed. They can just say "if you qualify for an AO, we don't want your game." If they made an exception for Manhunt, it would undermine their policy and soon they couldn't realistically object to RapeMaster or whatever appears next.

So the end result is that Rockstar will have to remove whatever it is that sends them over the realm of M and into AO. Sorry, folks, but there's a point where creativity must suffer in order for these companies to maintain a good public image, and the respite is that in order to reach that point you have to be a creatively sick freak to get there.

The good news is that the next time game violence appears in Washington, they can point to this example as a situation when privately-run rating and enforcement worked, and can keep the state out of their business. If there was no censorship and they allowed ANYTHING, the politicians can say "There's no censorship! They allow ANYTHING! Something must be done!"

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 08:07 PM
After this, I want them to edit the Saw movies. And Audition. In fact, just make everything PG-13 so everybody can enjoy it.

While we're at it, let's just take anything by J.D. Salinger out of circulation. We can just burn those.

Andrew
06-20-2007, 08:07 PM
So not only has the game been BANNED in the UK, it's also been given the dreaded AO rating. Because of the rating, Nintendo's making a stupid move and not letting it be published on their system. Also, no B&M retailer will really carry it if it's rated AO.

Looks like Take Two just wasted millions of dollars.

Nintendo, Sony *and* Microsoft do not allow A-O rated games on their consoles. So the A-O rating is an implicit ban for consoles. They could put it on PC, but major retailers won't carry A-O games anyway unless they specialize in porn/hentai games.

A ton of sites reported this, due to typical shoddy journalism, only mentioned Nintendo though.

Take Two is either incredibly stupid and expected this game to get an M, or they have an "edited" version ready to go and in the hopper and are just using this as a publicity stunt.

For anyone wondering, the content that seems to have netted the A-O includes a woman being decapitated and her decapitated body being raped in the neckhole, a live cat being microwaved to death, scenes of necrophilia, and a woman's breast being sliced off and worn like a hat.

If they made an exception for Manhunt, it would undermine their policy and soon they couldn't realistically object to RapeMaster or whatever appears next.


I didn't know Idolmaster was getting a sequel so soon.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 08:08 PM
A ton of site reporting this, due to typical shoddy journalism, only mentioned Nintendo though.


At the time of me making this article, all I had seen was that Nintendo had said no.

shivam
06-20-2007, 08:10 PM
the game is fucking wretched and has no business existing.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 08:11 PM
...

For anyone wondering, the content that seems to have netted the A-O includes a woman being decapitated and her decapitated body being raped in the neckhole, a live cat being microwaved to death, scenes of necrophilia, and a woman's breast being sliced off and worn like a hat.

Haha, yeah they probably have/have-always-had an edited version ready to roll. Did anybody ever see these scenes outside of Rockstar and, I assume, the ESRB?

Psyael
06-20-2007, 08:12 PM
After this, I want them to edit the Saw movies. And Audition. In fact, just make everything PG-13 so everybody can enjoy it.

If a movie theater doesn't want to show those movies, they don't have to. The MPAA is a private ratings industry, like the ESRB, and the theater industry decides how to react in light of their ratings voluntarily. In fact, the movie system, and it's voluntary participation, is what we often point out when the government wants to censor games on their own.

In this case, Nintendo and Sony are the movie theaters. They don't want to license any game rated AO due to association. They probably wish this game wasn't rated AO, but they can't undermine their own policy with an exception to one game just because it has hype. When was the last time a major movie theater played an NC-17 film in your area?

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 08:12 PM
the game is fucking wretched and has no business existing.

People say the same thing about your religion (I'm not one of them, I'm not one of them, I'm not one of them, I'm not one of them).

Andrew
06-20-2007, 08:15 PM
the game is fucking wretched and has no business existing.

Well Manhunt certainly is, but we haven't played this game yet.

Oh--content wise I guess you mean...

However, based on what we know and the previous Manhunt, it makes GTA SA look like Simpsons Hit and Run.

shivam
06-20-2007, 08:16 PM
what, hinduism? really?

and are you, by virtue of this analogy, saying that manhunt is your religion? Hunting down people simply to use wirecutters on their balls, or glass across their throats as a sacrifice to your god? really?


--
edited to add- and i have seen the game in action, when they brought it by the office.

Andrew
06-20-2007, 08:21 PM
I don't see any credible arguments defending R* for this. Really, they're the only mainstream developer to even get a whiff of the A-O.

Konami's Silent Hill series have been managing to deal just fine with blood, gore, violence, highly-sexual and disturbing imagery, demon worship and the like. I think everyone can handle a little Pyramid Head-on-demon rape scene now and then, but come on now. There are logical limits.

shivam
06-20-2007, 08:24 PM
it's like the difference between some rob zombie horror/gore flick and a snuff film.

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 08:31 PM
*ahem* regardless of your dislike of a company's product, it is within their rights--Constitutional--to make their games the way they want. And, as such, are beholden to the platform that allows its distribution. So, I guess, my first point is only that Manhunt 2's existence is justified; but doesn't mean the public will actually get to play it. It's unfortunate that Sony and Nintendo aren't allowing this game on their systems; maybe it could.... who am I kidding? I thought the first game was an exercise in tedium and the idea of witnessing multiple murders in the name of "in-your-face-entertainment" was a little gratuitous. Not that I don't want them to continue making these games, or games like these--somehow, Eli Roth is able to beat a dead teenager with his multiple gore-fests--because, even more than shitty, bloody games, I hate censorship. But that's just a sappy soldier's opinion.

ArugulaZ
06-20-2007, 08:33 PM
Oh, this is a fat load. Rockstar still has options if they want to publish this shit... and let's be honest about this. This was never going to be anything more than shit, just like the last game. I don't think the designers had any higher aspirations with Manhunt 2 than to shock and horrify people. And they can still do that by bringing the open platform like PCs, where there are no licensing restrictions. Microsoft is also an option... they may jump all over this, since the other two companies won't touch it.

Also, if this blunder brings down Take-Two, it won't kill any of its profitable franchises. These days, no intellectual property of value ever really dies... it's just sold to a new corporation. Look at how many times Driver and Might and Magic have been handed off to new publishers!

JR

Sprite
06-20-2007, 08:35 PM
This is a tough issue, and I'm not sure how I feel about it. On one hand, I wouldn't really want this kind of game on my system if I made one, just like I wouldn't want to sell pornographic DVDs if I owned a department store. On the other hand, what would happen if Sony decided to block publication of X-Rated Blu-Rays? Or designed DVD players to block out certain DVDs?

I don't understand why people are rational enough to see the difference between a movie studio and an electronics developer but not between a game studio and a console developer. I also don't understand why people go insane over gay kissing in Bully and yet sex mini-games in God of War get overlooked. Is Rockstar the only company lobbyists know about?

Anyway, I was not looking forward to Manhunt 2 at all. I have no taste for necrophilia. But whatever, free speech and all. AMBIVALENCE!

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 08:39 PM
what, hinduism? really?

and are you, by virtue of this analogy, saying that manhunt is your religion? Hunting down people simply to use wirecutters on their balls, or glass across their throats as a sacrifice to your god? really?


--
edited to add- and i have seen the game in action, when they brought it by the office.

First question-yes, members of my family says that about, believe it or not, hinduism (they are completely insane to the point of utter silliness, I know, but they are getting better! They don't want to hurt you, just think you're going to their hell, now), even though I have to admit that I was under the *impression that you were Islamic. My apologies.

The analogy I made was dumb, of course, as is this game and myself for making the analogy and getting all self righteous over it, but what to you is insanely disgusting/perverted/whatever your thoughts may be is "entertainment" to someone else, someone who will probably not go out and wear sliced off breasts as hats after playing it. Its extreme, theres no doubt about that, but so are the Saw and Hostel movies, and people don't go out in droves to commit acts such as scene in the movie, or dream up their own, and the ones that are going to be influenced by it would have found yet another thing in its place to give them the idea.

It does need to be said that this game does, in a way, "show" you how to kill someone through visual cues and can be seen as teaching someone to do it, but people can probably figure out how to suffocate someone with a plastic bag on their own. Same goes for slashing titties and raping a dead woman in the neck. Similar things were said about Clockwork Orange, that its teaching people how to behave like the characters in the movie, like a Driver's Ed tape as opposed to absorbing the movie on an intellectual and emotional level. Manhunt 2 isn't trying to do anything like that, but I'm just making a shitty anecdote to back up my opinion.

And my weak analogy has some merit in that if someone thought that because someone read a religious book filled with extreme scenes of violence where the person causing such is doing so almost thrillingly, with no mercy or repercussions, either from the author or any other character in the story, was going to go out and start burning towns down, you'd probably think their nuts and anxious for their generation to die off.

*Edited for errors and little more.

shivam
06-20-2007, 08:42 PM
just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Sure, we're free to make terribly gory and hardcore explicit media, but there are mechanisms in place to make sure that these materials stay in the hands of people who are mature enough to handle it.

Video game consoles attracted a mixed audience, ranging from the mature to the very young, and thus, are much harder to police and regulate in terms of content distribution. Moreover, parents in america are, as a group, pretty fucking dumb on average, and can't be trusted to parent their own children, and keep improper content out of their hands. A game like manhunt is basically asking for trouble from all sides.

Honestly, all this game does is make life harder for all the other games out there.

my problem is that it is too easy for this game to get into the hands of people that shouldnt have it. free speech only goes so far--try screaming obscenities in a kindergarten, or showing snuff films in a street plaza, or yelling fire in a crowded theatre and see how farr free speech gets you.

Torgo
06-20-2007, 08:46 PM
People seem to be inferring that I think Manhunt 2 should be censored or shouldn't be released. Quite the opposite. Rockstar can do as they please and should be able to develop and release whatever they want. It doesn't change the fact that I think they're getting their just deserts. It also doesn't change the fact that I think they're being irresponsible given the current social and political climate at-large surrounding games and violence.

the game is fucking wretched and has no business existing.
And really, as gamers, what more do we need to know?

shivam
06-20-2007, 08:47 PM
First question-yes, members of my family says that about, believe it or not, hinduism (they are completely insane to the point of utterly silliness, I know, but they are getting better!), even though I have to admit that I was under the impression that you were Islamic. My apologies.

uh. my name is Shivam, and my icon is the hindu god Ram. How the fuck did you get anything even remotely islamic out of that? It's like finding a dude named Jesus and assuming that he's taoist.



And my weak analogy has some merit in that if someone thought that because someone read a religious book filled with extreme scenes of violence where the person causing such is doing so almost thrillingly, with no mercy or repercussions, either from the author or any other character in the story, was going to go out and start burning towns down, you'd probably think their nuts and anxious for their generation to die off.

that is a very...awkward statement.

Excitemike
06-20-2007, 08:50 PM
I take it back. This doesn't sound like a game I'd be interested in at all.

On the other hand, what would happen if Sony decided to block publication of X-Rated Blu-Rays?

Not really an issue. The porn industry had backed HD-DVD*. Which is really the biggest advantage HD-DVD has going for it.

This is just great publicity for Rockstar. They can censor it and release it on console, then release an "extreme unrated director's cut" for PC. They can just skip the middleman and just release a PC version, complete with Wiimote connectivity through Bluetooth. As much as Nintendo wants you to believe otherwise, the audience for this game isn't playing the Wii anyway. If it wasn't banned would anyone here be talking about it?

*Porn actors, on the other hand, are against any high definition format. Nobody wants the world to see their razor burns.

alexb
06-20-2007, 08:53 PM
About half an hour ago, I was talking with my wife and told her about the banning. I said, "I don't know what there could be that would earn it an AO, unless you slice off a woman's tits and ate them." Wow. Prescient.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 08:58 PM
uh. my name is Shivam, and my icon is the hindu god Ram. How the fuck did you get anything even remotely islamic out of that? It's like finding a dude named Jesus and assuming that he's taoist.


I thought your icon was just a comic book character or something and didn't even pay attention to your name. I just remembered a thread on the old Talking Time board about religion that I only glanced at and for some reason took from it that you were Islamic. Sorry (honestly and seriously put together) to have offended you with my atheist ignorance.

As for that second part, yeah, maybe its borderline listening to too much Jethro Tull nonsense, I don't know. ROCKSTAR RULES!!!!

BEAT
06-20-2007, 08:58 PM
Didn't the original manhunt suck?

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 09:02 PM
Any media has the capacity to incite violence and ire. Whether it is a video game, a piece of music, a film, or, gasp, a religious text. If it is influential, as more people than not will tell you that the Bible is the best selling book of all time, it may just be the catalyst to a ton of suffering. So, because one thing seems more interactive, doesn't make it any more, or any less, likely to do harm in the hands of someone who isn't mature enough to understand what they're experiencing.

This kind of statement has the tendency to derail a topic; that's not my intention. From what I have read, regarding Take-Two's options, they're not being treated any less fairly than filmmakers: The A/O rating is about as damning to a game designer as the NC-17 rating is to a director. Both organizations that publish the ratings are nonpartisan, civilian organizations whose agenda is educating the public about what is appropriate, parental consent withstanding, for what age group/maturity level. This, to me, doesn't mean that the government should be able to arrest a Gamestop employee or a Regal Cinema ticket-jockey just because they sell a ticket or a game that is inappropriate to a minor. But, if those employees' companies decide that those actions were incompatible with store/company policy, then make with the firing.

Jesus, I am a bore.

alexb
06-20-2007, 09:07 PM
I don't think it was because they believed it was going to incite people to copy the actions therein that earned the game an AO. If what was said about the content is true, it's just in bad taste. I mean, I'm a pretty crude and apathetic guy, but even I have to admit that neck fucking a corpse is pretty gauche.

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 09:10 PM
I don't think it was because they believed it was going to incite people to copy the actions therein that earned the game an AO. If what was said about the content is true, it's just in bad taste. I mean, I'm a pretty crude and apathetic guy, but even I have to admit that neck fucking a corpse is in pretty poor taste.

Certainly, I'm not arguing the A/O rating. It's a vile piece of 'art.' Using extreme violence and sexual congress with a corpse doesn't make a poor game better, it makes it pathetic. Covering up poor play-mechanics (this is speculation, I've only played the first game) with shock-value doesn't make a game better; just as countless, brilliant licenses have been aborted into gargantuan disasters. Regardless of the Wii's kiddy shtick, adding something like this doesn't help anyone. And, my comment about inciting violence was directed at another forum member's analogy. I'm only tired of each generation blaming entertainment for individual mistakes.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:15 PM
And Shivam, the AO rating should block minors from getting the game easily, like similar ratings make it difficult for them to get a hard copy of a porno or a Faces of Death movie. The game industry, if anything, is easier to regulate because games are only really sold at select places, especially to a kid who gets his games from probably only big department stores, EB/Gamestop, or rent it from a local Video Hut or whatever, and can only be played on a select machine. You can't download and play a Wii game on your computer at the moment, like you can a movie or a song or a book, you can only play it on the Wii. Something like this coming out would drill in store companies/clerks, either online or offline, the necessity for making sure that whoever is purchasing this item is incredibly informed about what exactly this is they are buying, not to mention the insane mainstream press that would have come out about it, more or less making sure anybody who would be buying this for their kid, or the adult interested in buying it for themselves, would know exactly what they were getting into (Sorry to be redundant there).

People can tell the difference from extreme fantasy and the real world. No one who saw the game went out killed anybody, and I'm sure everywhere here can agree that, as a kid, none of us would have been influenced to do harm on somebody because of it. This is how the vast majority of the population reacts to such forms of entertainment.

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 09:20 PM
But, PHATTOM, your avatar is culling me into a frenzy of culinary proportions. I must go out and saute onions to early 70s porn music, slowly, and with a grin that would make the Joker proud.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:21 PM
I don't think it was because they believed it was going to incite people to copy the actions therein that earned the game an AO. If what was said about the content is true, it's just in bad taste. I mean, I'm a pretty crude and apathetic guy, but even I have to admit that neck fucking a corpse is pretty gauche.

But taste differs from person to person. I'm sure there are games you've played that would send waves of shock and horror out to tons of people. My mother still uses Mortal Kombat as the ultimate analogy to all things bad with youth culture.

shivam
06-20-2007, 09:23 PM
what person thinks that manhunt 2 is in good taste? i'd love to hear their side of the story.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:25 PM
But, PHATTOM, your avatar is culling me into a frenzy of culinary proportions. I must go out and saute onions to early 70s porn music, slowly, and with a grin that would make the Joker proud.

Oh, great, now Jeremy's going to have to ban me unless I place a veil over her head. You 18-34 year olds and your Counter Kombat Hunters!

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:30 PM
what person thinks that manhunt 2 is in good taste? i'd love to hear their side of the story.

I don't know, fans of exploitation films, like Quentin Tarantino (not his movies, but the movies he watches at times), or punk fans in the 70s, or Marilyn Manson fans in the 90s. To quote a phrase muttered by millions of gamers over and over, "Its just a game". That'd actually be a pretty cool tag line for the game, or even title for it.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 09:30 PM
don't think it was because they believed it was going to incite people to copy the actions therein that earned the game an AO. If what was said about the content is true, it's just in bad taste. I mean, I'm a pretty crude and apathetic guy, but even I have to admit that neck fucking a corpse is pretty gauche.

But taste differs from person to person. I'm sure there are games you've played that would send waves of shock and horror out to tons of people. My mother still uses Mortal Kombat as the ultimate analogy to all things bad with youth culture.

Whoa hold on. Alex is saying fucking a corpse is in bad taste, and you're saying taste differs? When and to whom is FUCKING A CORPSE not bad taste?

Also, I agree with Doc about that avatar of Giada. It's not soft-core, it's "al-dente".

Hmm... Giada....*drools*

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 09:32 PM
Whoa hold on. Alex is saying fucking a corpse is in bad taste, and you're saying taste differs? When and to whom is FUCKING A CORPSE not bad taste?

Also, I agree with Doc about that avatar of Giada. It's not soft-core, it's "al-dente".

Hmm... Giada....*drools*


HAHAHAHAHAHA! sorry about the caps, but, damn it, that was funny. I actually laughed out loud. Thanks for that.

Torgo
06-20-2007, 09:35 PM
...but even I have to admit that neck fucking a corpse is pretty gauche.
Well I- wait, what?

... I hadn't heard about anything like that.

Red Hedgehog
06-20-2007, 09:39 PM
I don't know why, but I'm incredibly libertarian on this issue.

I think having a wide variety of game types and themes is only good for the industry. That includes pornographic and extremely violent games. If a publisher thinks there is an audience for them, I see no reason why they shouldn't make them. I think people that say games like Manhunt 2 should not be made are pretty crazy. This game is doing no one any harm and is, at most, a waste of resources if the game isn't any good or doesn't sell well.

I think the rating system did its job in giving this an AO rating (assuming the above post about the reasons for the AO is correct). It definitely seems like this game takes violence to the extreme and deserves the equivalent of an NC-17 rating.

That said, it disappoints me that Sony or Nintendo would not allow this game on their consoles. Given its AO rating, the game would not be widely available and would probably only be purchased by those that know about it and want it. I think the AO rating does exactly what it should - which is put this game out of the eyes of the public and into places where only adults can get to it. It is certainly within the companies' rights to refuse this, but it smacks of abuse of monopoly. While major theaters don't show NC-17 movies, smaller ones do. Either those geared toward porno or those geared towards art. Heck, I've seen a couple NC-17 movies in theaters here in Salt Lake City. I think the analogy of Blu-Ray or HD-DVD not allowing pornography on them is appropriate.

As for interest in the game itself, I have a friend who loved the original. He thought it was a good, if difficult stealth game. He talked up Manhunt so much that he got me to pick up a copy of it. He was highly pumped for Manhunt 2, planning to make it his next Wii purchase. For myself, I was curious about the game. I have to admit that the thought of pretend-strangling someone with the cord that connects the remote to the nunchuk sound pretty cool to me. I was wondering whether they could really create a good and innovative control scheme with the Wii. I still don't know if I would have played it. I have yet to crack the cellophane on my copy of the original Manhunt because I can't really imagine myself enjoying the content, much as I can't imagine myself enjoying a movie like Hostel.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:40 PM
I'm not even quite sure I'm using the word taste properly at all in this thread. Maybe threshold of being offended by something. I don't think anyones looking at the game and thinking, "Yummy", but they can still play it and be entertained, maybe even grossed out and shocked, but not to the point where they get all, "THIS IS OFFENSIVE! I AM OFFENDED! IN MY DAY WE HAD DOOM AND MORTAL KOMBAT AND GRAND THEFT AUTO, AND WE LOVED IT, LIKE WE SHOULD HAVE, BUT THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS! I'M GOING TO PUT ON MY SEX PISTOL, NIRVANA, AND ANYTHING WITH RAPPING IN IT RECORDS RIGHT NOW AND HAVE MY VOICE HEARD!"

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 09:41 PM
It also doesn't change the fact that I think they're being irresponsible given the current social and political climate at-large surrounding games and violence.


I say screw this. We're never going to get anywhere without people pushing the limits, and breaking them. Neck-fucking aside, I think Rockstar should be able to release what they want.

shivam
06-20-2007, 09:41 PM
to whom, phattom, is ripping out testicles with a wire cutter entertaining?

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 09:43 PM
to whom, phattom, is ripping out testicles with a wire cutter entertaining?

Totally taste-less and kinda off topic, but just reading this made me giggle.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 09:43 PM
What's interesting is as I'm sitting here reading about censorship in video games, Comedy Central is showing the "Cartoon Wars" episode of South Park that talked about Censorship.

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 09:46 PM
I would say, given the popularity of the original Manhunt, the Saw movies, Hostel 1 and 2, and countless other horror films, there are plenty of people who find the process of turning a man into a eunuch with wire cutters is all kinds of entertaining.

Why are you so concerned about the opinions of other gamers? You've stated that you find this game offensive; so don't buy it if it is released. That's pretty much the capitalist way of telling a company to get bent.

Torgo
06-20-2007, 09:47 PM
I say screw this. We're never going to get anywhere without people pushing the limits, and breaking them. Neck-fucking aside, I think Rockstar should be able to release what they want.
Yes, but if you take it a step too far you risk a backlash that can result in regression instead of progression. There are more tasteful ways to go about these things. Manhunt 2 is not the game we want spearheading and testing politicians' limits.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 09:48 PM
We're never going to get anywhere without people pushing the limits, and breaking them.

Ok, fine, but where are we going?

Now I'm not saying all sex & violence should be taken out of games, but there are some things you have to draw the line and say "no, that was too far." Corpse-fucking is one of those things.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:49 PM
to whom, phattom, is ripping out testicles with a wire cutter entertaining?

Red Hedgehog, his friend, and a lot of other people who would be able to realize, "You know, I bet having this done to me in real life wouldn't be so fun, so I imagine others feel the same way......but this is pretty cool." Its a game, man, just a game. You don't have to play it, the game isn't going all that-one-Outer-Limits-episode, possessing your Wii remote and ripping out your...oh, my, can you imagine all the lame Wii jokes that would come out of this thing?

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 09:51 PM
I think Rockstar should be able to release what they want.
And as far as the US is concerned, they are. Being shut out of the consoles isn't a form of censorship or The Man keeping anyone down, they're closed platforms with final say on what they release. Nobody's rights are being curtailed if Nintendo/Sony/Whatever says no to their game.

(the exception being if we got into totally different issues like anti-trust/monopoly stuff, if the console makers were colluding and shutting out developers to drive them out of the market, that sort of stuff. That would be a whole different argument entirely, and not one I plan on starting, just wanted to head off the tangent before someone tried to poke at my main point)

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 09:51 PM
Ok, fine, but where are we going?

Now I'm not saying all sex & violence should be taken out of games, but there are some things you have to draw the line and say "no, that was too far." Corpse-fucking is one of those things.

When has that line been drawn with movies?

And as far as the US is concerned, they are. Being shut out of the consoles isn't a form of censorship or The Man keeping anyone down, they're closed platforms with final say on what they release. Nobody's rights are being curtailed if Nintendo/Sony/Whatever says no to their game.

And I'm mostly upset at Sony/Nintendo. I do agree that the content deserves the AO rating, I really think that at least Sony of all people would allow it to be made on their system.

shivam
06-20-2007, 09:52 PM
its not a matter of offending me. Its a matter of negatively affecting the whole goddamned industry at a time when gaming doesn't need any more bad press. Fucking push the envelope to hell and back for all i care, but just don't do it right now.

I'm not the one R* needs to worry about offending. They need to realise that when they piss off the government, it is not rockstar that is targeted, it is ALL OF GAMING. as a gamer, i don't want my hobby to be assraped because some fuckhead at rockstar thought it would be fun to make the most offensive game possible.

doc_marten_abortion
06-20-2007, 09:53 PM
A PC version sounds reasonable. Besides, high-res evisceration is appealing to everyone.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 09:55 PM
When has that line been drawn with movies?

I don't think they ever tried that. At least, I'm not sure, Necrophilia isn't one of my fetishes.


And I'm mostly upset at Sony/Nintendo. I do agree that the content deserves the AO rating, I really think that at least Sony of all people would allow it to be made on their system.

These were the same people that didn't allow tits to shown in BMX XXX, but strangely Nintendo did allow it. Besides it's their system, and if they don't want to risk the backlash, that their perogitive. Like if Parish shut down the forums, we can bitch but he has the right.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 09:57 PM
Ok, fine, but where are we going?

Now I'm not saying all sex & violence should be taken out of games, but there are some things you have to draw the line and say "no, that was too far." Corpse-fucking is one of those things.

Why? It should just be where you draw the line at what you yourself play, not someone else. This game, dumb or not, isn't telling people to fuck a corpse, no less than Scream told teenagers around the country to slice up people's throats as a cheap Halloween character. Remember how silly people got over Scream, a pretty dumb movie by most standards? Let people make up their own minds.

alexb
06-20-2007, 10:01 PM
Context plays a part, too. From what I can gather, you play the part of a mentally ill, sadistic serial killer in Manhunt 2. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems unlikely that there is any underlying artistic or philosophical depth to the events in the game beyond mayhem for the sake of it. However, in all fairness, Doom and Mortal Kombat fail this same test and I have no problem with them. Doom's a pretty great game, in fact. So maybe I'm just get old and becoming more of a hypocrite.

And for that matter, there are people who enjoy grisly imagery. There have been for a long time. It doesn't necessarily mean they're depraved. I'm not making any judgment on that taste. I know that I like a certain amount of gore in my entertainment just to sell the experience. For instance, I've always been irked by WWII shooters where people don't bleed. The lack of blood in Soul Calibur is a perennial concern of mine, too. I feel like excluding that gore is chickening out and backing away from the consequences of violence. Aside from robbing a scene of drama, I feel like it's treating me with kid gloves. I don't like being told what's in my best interests by authority figures.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I personally know it's not something I'm into, I don't know that my feelings on the matter are so strong that I think that it should be censored. At the same time, as others have said, pushing the envelope for no reason could really backfire for everyone. It may very well be a publicity stunt. We have to consider that, given that we're talking about Rockstar. In which case, shivam, I think I could enjoy whoever made that decision being castrated with a wire. As I said before, I think Rockstar's reputation always makes whatever they're doing more incendiary than if another developer was doing the exact same thing.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 10:01 PM
I don't think they ever tried that. At least, I'm not sure, Necrophilia isn't one of my fetishes.


Here's one. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0159241/)
Not quite the neck hole part, but close enough.



Edit****

Sweet shit. My friend just told me something and it sounds like it could play a part in Sony's part.

Sony is playing hard ball to see how far they can push Rockstar over GTA4.

Then again, I could just be crazy and tired.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 10:06 PM
Why? It should just be where you draw the line at what you yourself play, not someone else. This game, dumb or not, isn't telling people to fuck a corpse, no less than Scream told teenagers around the country to slice up people's throats as a cheap Halloween character. Remember how silly people got over Scream, a pretty dumb movie by most standards? Let people make up their own minds.

You know what's funny? A few years ago, I was saying the same thing you are about fucking and then killing the prostitutes in GTA3. I don't know.

It's... look I don't know. There's pushing the limits and then there's going too far. My personal line is (so far) everything cool, kill who want, fuck who you want, just don't show (or imply) fucking a corpse.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:08 PM
its not a matter of offending me. Its a matter of negatively affecting the whole goddamned industry at a time when gaming doesn't need any more bad press. Fucking push the envelope to hell and back for all i care, but just don't do it right now.

I'm not the one R* needs to worry about offending. They need to realise that when they piss off the government, it is not rockstar that is targeted, it is ALL OF GAMING. as a gamer, i don't want my hobby to be assraped because some fuckhead at rockstar thought it would be fun to make the most offensive game possible.

I know what you're saying, but the game industry is such a bunch of weenies that there will apparently never be a time in the near future where the people calling the shots will just say fuck all to all the conservative people in Washington. Time and time again the point has been driven home that this is free speech, whether you agree with it or not, and it doesn't cause some widespread flu of anarchy and chaos to take over the country. Its just a dumb game, that is it. As ridiculous as it sounds, the game industry needs this retarded game for themselves to grow up. Thats probably quite a bit over the top, but nevertheless, those guys need to grow some balls sooner or later, even if its just to defend "cheap" entertainment, like the music industry did with Twisted Sister, Dee Snider, and John Denver. People were saying the same things back then, about making concessions, taking down Prince and heavy metal records to make the heat go away. Its just silly nonsense that we have to apparently go through over and over again.

Edited. Man, I've been typing errors like Red Hedgehog wants be digging for gold in some corpse necks this summer

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:10 PM
Edit****

Sweet shit. My friend just told me something and it sounds like it could play a part in Sony's part.



Then again, I could just be crazy and tired.

What does he mean?

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 10:11 PM
I'm sure Sony could change their mind to allow Manhunt 2 on their system if Rockstar bribed them with GTA4 stuff. Microsoft just paid $50 million for that content, so it's gotta be worth something.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 10:15 PM
I know what you're saying, but the game industry is such bunch of weenies that there will apparently never be a time in the near future where the people calling the shots will just say fuck all to all the conservative people in Washington. Time and time again the point has been driven home that this is free speech, whether you agree with it or not, and it doesn't cause some widespread flu of anarchy and chaos to take over the country. Its just a dumb game, that is it. As ridiculous as it sounds, the game industry needs this retarded game for themselves to grow up. Thats probably quite a bit over the top, but nevertheless, those guys need to the grow some balls sooner or later, even if its just to defend "cheap" entertainment, like the music industry did with Twisted Sister, Dee Snider, and John Denver. People were saying the same things back then, about making concessions, taking down Prince and heavy metal records to make the heat go away. Its just silly nonsense that we have to apparently go through over and over again.

The problem with using the whole free speech arguement is that there are limits on free speech. It's kinda hard to argue the artistic value of some of the stuff that's in this game.

and to counter the hollywood arguement, we're (as in the Video Game industry) not throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at the congressmen.

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 10:18 PM
I'm sure Sony could change their mind to allow Manhunt 2 on their system if Rockstar bribed them with GTA4 stuff. Microsoft just paid $50 million for that content, so it's gotta be worth something.
Microsoft didn't pay them $50 million for exclusive content; that got taken severely out of context by the hack-gaming-journalism-blogosphere. 1up has the good sense to follow it up with a more accurate story: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160409 , but if you looked around when it was first reported it was already clear at the time that the joystiqs and kotakus of the world were going on their own inaccurate interpretations of the Take Two conference call.

edit: I'm not saying an arrangement like this couldn't influence Rockstar's relationship with MS. Certainly MS's willingness to give them the advance might go a long way toward securing content. But to say MS bought the content for $50 is misrepresenting the situation.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 10:19 PM
The problem with using the whole free speech arguement is that there are limits on free speech. It's kinda hard to argue the artistic value of some of the stuff that's in this game.


Then I guess it's not really "free", is it?


Microsoft didn't pay them $50 million for exclusive content; that got taken severely out of context by the hack-gaming-journalism-blogosphere. 1up has the good sense to follow it up with a more accurate story: http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160409 , but if you looked around when it was first reported it was already clear at the time that the joystiqs and kotakus of the world were going on their own inaccurate interpretations of the Take Two conference call.
Regardless, the sum of $50 million was talked about with GTA 4 episodic content.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:21 PM
The problem with using the whole free speech arguement is that there are limits on free speech. It's kinda hard to argue the artistic value of some of the stuff that's in this game.

and to counter the hollywood arguement, we're (as in the Video Game industry) not throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at the congressmen.

Thats true (the money thing), but this is something you have to interact with in the privacy of your, or some else's, own home. This isn't like yelling fire at a movie theater or screaming obscenities in a classroom, as someone mentioned before. Your home is your home, do whatever you want as long as you're not inflicting pain upon others without their will or consent (again, whatever you're into is whatever you're into) in the real world, which this game is not. You can't ban someone from being into S&M in their own home, which is actually causing physical pain to someone else, nor can you stop them from watching it.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 10:22 PM
Then I guess it's not really "free", is it?

You sound suprised by this.

Go yell "fire" in a crowded theater, then tell the cops you have 100% free speech.

Thats true (the money thing), but this is something you have to interact with in the privacy of your, or some else's, own home. This isn't like yelling fire at a movie theater or screaming obscenities in a classroom, as someone mentioned before. Your home is your home, do whatever you want as long as you're not inflicting pain upon others without their will or consent (again, whatever you're into is whatever you're into) in the real world, which this game is not. You can't ban someone from being into S&M in their own home, which is actually causing physical pain to someone else, nor can you stop them from watching it.

Really? I know many southern states (and the military) have laws against Sodomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy) (btw the technical definition is anything not Missionary between a man and a woman). Doesn't matter if you only do it behind closed doors, if they have proof, they can and have arrested people

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:25 PM
You sound suprised by this.

Go yell "fire" in a crowded theater, then tell the cops you have 100% free speech.

Interaction in your home is different from interaction in public space. I can yell fire in my home right now as loud as I want with no consequences, legally that is.

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 10:28 PM
Now I'm not saying all sex & violence should be taken out of games, but there are some things you have to draw the line and say "no, that was too far." Corpse-fucking is one of those things.
The question is of who gets to draw that line. In this case, Nintendo and Sony have drawn a line and said "We will not publish AO games." Which is well within their right. The ESRB has drawn a lot of lines, and files games into the spaces between. Which is well within their right, they're not regulating so much as classifying.

So yeah, I'm ok with your sentiment that "at some point, you, as a person, or you, as a private corporation with an image to uphold, have got to draw the line" when it's not being forced on someone, because neither of those cases is forcing it on the developer.

What would be wrong is if the US government stepped in and said "You know what Rockstar? You can't release this game at all. Even on the PC. Even if Nintendo changes policy, or you tone it down to a "Mature" rating. You're just not allowed to make this game." It sounds like that's sort of what's happening in Europe, though I'm not familiar enough with their rating/regulatory systems to speak with any authority on that.

reibeatall
06-20-2007, 10:28 PM
You sound suprised by this.

Go yell "fire" in a crowded theater, then tell the cops you have 100% free speech.


Only if the movie they're showing is Hostel 2.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:29 PM
You sound suprised by this.

Go yell "fire" in a crowded theater, then tell the cops you have 100% free speech.



Really? I know many southern states (and the military) have laws against Sodomy (btw the technical definition is anything not Missionary between a man and a woman). Doesn't matter if you only do it behind closed doors, if they have proof, they can and have arrested people

And do you agree with that? These are the same places that can arrest you for performing oral sex in your own privacy. We're talking about the world the majority of human beings in this country live in; those places are cartoons that will be adjusted in due time, as they always do, to every form of thinking out there. Its pretty rare if people actually get arrested there (although its happened ridiculously before), or adhere to rules for that matter.

Torgo
06-20-2007, 10:33 PM
Context plays a part, too. From what I can gather, you play the part of a mentally ill, sadistic serial killer in Manhunt 2. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems unlikely that there is any underlying artistic or philosophical depth to the events in the game beyond mayhem for the sake of it. However, in all fairness, Doom and Mortal Kombat fail this same test and I have no problem with them. Doom's a pretty great game, in fact. So maybe I'm just get old and becoming more of a hypocrite.
Doom is completely different. Excessive, over-the-top violence is where the similarities end, and I'm not even talking about gameplay. You said it yourself, it's context. Weather or not Doom's violence is offensive, it doesn't change the fact that the violence is a means to an end: Your own survival and the destruction of evil. At the end of the day, you are the good guy and the demons are the bad guys. Take Gears of War. If judged on its visuals alone, it should have raised way more red flags with watchdogs then Manhunt. Yet it passed on by mostly unnoticed.

Manhunt has no such context to fall back on. It's over-the-top, offensive content is not just its means but also its end. That's the difference.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:36 PM
Sony and Nintendo can stop this product from coming out on their systems, considering its their platform and they can do whatever the fuck want, I just think its dumb and backwards, and I don't think they should have the right to dictate what gets put in their machine.

Wasn't Reggie involved, one way or another, with this game? He must have known some of the content that would be going into the game, at the bare minimum from the content that was in the original game. I mean, he definitely knew the controversy/coolness factor that would come along with it.

shivam
06-20-2007, 10:38 PM
the whole point of manhunt is to go out and kill people as gruesomely as possible for the sick pleasure of an offscreen viewer. There's a mile of difference between that and stuff like MK or Doom, which are far removed from reality and cartoony in the extreme.

It's a slippery slope. What good will come out of manhunt? what wonderful things will we be allowed to do as a result? how will society benefit from this game? what freedoms are being protected here? Seriously, there are no other murder sims out there, and all manhunt will do is bring down the wrath onto games that integrate violence and bloodshed just fine, like gears or what have you.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 10:39 PM
And do you agree with that? There are the same places that can arrest you for performing oral sex in your privacy. We're talking the world the majority of human beings in this country live in; those places are cartoons that will be adjusted in due time, as they always do, to every form of thinking out there. Its pretty rare if people actually get arrested there (although its happened ridiculously before), or adhere to rules for that matter.

I NEVER said it it was right, I'm just saying (and I'm quoting a judge here) ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Look, I think Rockstar has the right to make whatever game they want, even if they throw in stuff that I don't agree with. I also think Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft can say if a game is AO, they don't want it. I also have the right after hearing about what is in the game to say that's too far.

Besides if some one doesn't draw a line, where do we go with this?

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:40 PM
Doom is completely different. Excessive, over-the-top violence is where the similarities end, and I'm not even talking about gameplay. You said it yourself, it's context. Weather or not Doom's violence is offensive, it doesn't change the fact that the violence is a means to an end: Your own survival and the destruction of evil. At the end of the day, you are the good guy and the demons are the bad guys. Take Gears of War. If judged on its visuals alone, it should have raised way more red flags with watchdogs then Manhunt. Yet it passed on by mostly unnoticed.

Manhunt has no such context to fall back on. It's over-the-top, offensive content is not just its means but also its end. That's the difference.

Its Alexb's line about being a hypocrite you need to look over again. Like the people saying the Rolling Stones were totally different from Prince, they had a soul, man, a soul! Not this Prince trash, it has nothing to fall back on, just plentiful booty.

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 10:41 PM
Sony and Nintendo can stop this product from coming out on their systems, considering its their platform and they can do whatever the fuck want, I just think its dumb and backwards, and I don't think they should have the right to dictate what gets put in their machine.
That's absurd. We get rights, Nintendo doesn't? Can we force Wal*Mart to carry pornography? Consoles are a closed system, and it is perfectly reasonable that they get final authority on what they do and don't allow to be published for them.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 10:42 PM
Its Alexb's line about being a hypocrite you need to look over again. Like the people saying the Rolling Stones were totally different from Prince, they had a soul, man, a soul! Not this Prince trash, it has nothing to fall back on, just plentiful booty.

So where is the "soul" of sticking a live cat in a microwave?

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 10:44 PM
All over the inside of the microwave, and it's a real pain to clean.

This isn't a free speech (or free game development) debate*. You can make whatever sick game you can design. But you shouldn't act shocked and indignant when a store refuses to sell it, or a console won't let you publish it. Unless that's all part of your marketing scheme (which I'm not saying this is, but it could be), which is sort of trashy, but also your choice to make.

*I mean, I guess maybe that's what this thread is. The Manhunt 2 issue that kicked it off isn't though.

shivam
06-20-2007, 10:44 PM
Sony and Nintendo can stop this product from coming out on their systems, considering its their platform and they can do whatever the fuck want, I just think its dumb and backwards, and I don't think they should have the right to dictate what gets put in their machine.



oh jesus christ and all his latter day saints. You can't have it both ways. either it is their platform to dictate, or it is not. Why shouldnt they be allowed to control their content? It's no different than a television station or a movie theatre choosing what content to show. There was a 9-11 telemovie on some months ago, that various stations across america refused to broadcast. this was their right as content providers. It's their bandwidth and their technology, afterall. Nintendo and Sony want to cover their asses and deflect any of the horrific publicity that this will generate and shove it all back on rockstar, which is what any sane business would want to do. They have enough troubles as it is, without adding to their misery with this game.

When the game platform technology becomes open and generic and any company can put out their own version of it (the way vcrs and dvd players and so on are), then anybody will be able to put any game they want on it. Look at the PC, for instance. Anybody who wants to can code a corpse rape simulator and distribute it for the windows platform without reprecussion. But as long as sony and nintendo are sole controllers of their tech, they have final say over what can and can't come out. and that's how it should be.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 10:45 PM
All over the inside of the microwave, and it's a real pain to clean.

That's SO messed up but damned if I didn't laugh. Thank you.

When the game platform technology becomes open and generic and any company can put out their own version of it (the way vcrs and dvd players and so on are), then anybody will be able to put any game they want on it. Look at the PC, for instance. Anybody who wants to can code a corpse rape simulator and distribute it for the windows platform without reprecussion. But as long as sony and nintendo are sole controllers of their tech, they have final say over what can and can't come out. and that's how it should be.

Look at the Super Columbine Massacre RPG for proof of this.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 10:52 PM
the whole point of manhunt is to go out and kill people as gruesomely as possible for the sick pleasure of an offscreen viewer. There's a mile of difference between that and stuff like MK or Doom, which are far removed from reality and cartoony in the extreme.

It's a slippery slope. What good will come out of manhunt? what wonderful things will we be allowed to do as a result? how will society benefit from this game? what freedoms are being protected here? Seriously, there are no other murder sims out there, and all manhunt will do is bring down the wrath onto games that integrate violence and bloodshed just fine, like gears or what have you.

There isn't any difference to the action to most people though. Hell, apparently Doom has made kids go out and shoot up entire schools, as has Mortal Kombat will forcing kids, with Shao Kahn's infinite mental power, to pulverize each other, as has Grand Theft Auto, that game about being a hitman and annihilating innocent people at any given moment with your free will that can easily (and most people do this) be manipulated so you never get in trouble for this, and in fact turn it around and start destroying scores of police officers, laughing all the while, exchanging high fives with your buddies. I was sophomore in high school when that came out and everyone, and I mean everyone, played the living fuck out the unedited version in my town, across all age ranges, from kids in first grade to college kids we knew. No acts of violence I heard of because of its unbelievable power to make the retarded robot culture known as everybody but yourself go shoot up a street or rape women for health.

Most people don't give a shit about the context of the game, certainly not a game like this where its you just delivering fatalities. Should half the cast of Twisted Metal be banned because they're blood thirsty maniacs looking to fix their itch? Should Blood Omen games be banned from ebay for fear of the scores of human sacrifice it will cause people to perform? How bout Loaded, look at all the mass insanity that game caused. You can barely walk the streets at night because of that game. Remember the mayhem that doomed our streets because of Carmegedeon, or how you can no longer go to Post Office because of Postal? Who cares about if this game is making culture progress forward or not, its a trash product, whatever that means? Street Fighter should be taken down because its not doing anything to further our understanding of the human mind, just ordering you to beat the shit out of your opponent.

Plus, this game doesn't even have that great of graphics. In a few years we're all going to be shaking our heads and how lame it was for people to get so wound up over it.

Jeanie
06-20-2007, 11:01 PM
Heck TV, comic books, rock and roll, even various religious texts have been used as excuses as to why stupid people to stupid things. The difference here is, One, this is something we care about so we're gonna defend it as much as Dee Snyder defended Metal, Two, this is the latest thing to be blamed and the need to scapegoat something is human nature. Just wait, in twenty years, we'll be the ones to do this to some new thing that provides happiness to other people.

shivam
06-20-2007, 11:03 PM
but people, this is manhunt. what happiness does it provide? are we even talking about the same game here?

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 11:09 PM
but people, this is manhunt. what happiness does it provide? are we even talking about the same game here?
Some people like video games. Your lack of appreciation for this one isn't wrong, but it isn't universal either. I can't understand why people like things, that doesn't mean they don't like them.

alexb
06-20-2007, 11:10 PM
Well, clearly the vicarious thrill of playing a villain.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 11:10 PM
That's absurd. We get rights, Nintendo doesn't? Can we force Wal*Mart to carry pornography? Consoles are a closed system, and it is perfectly reasonable that they get final authority on what they do and don't allow to be published for them.

Okay, okay, okay, I misspoke, definitely. EMI had every right to sign, then drop, the Sex Pistols from their label, and Virgin could turn around and sign the Sex Pistols to theirs. Sony and Nintendo and Microsoft and Capcom and Konami and anybody else can decide what gets put out under their name. I guess I just find it frustrating that the content that goes out to the public is dictated by these few console holders. I love playing games on consoles, and don't have a computer capable of running anything modern, so thats where I play games, for the most part. Having Sony decide what can or cannot be played on that system is kind of like them dictating what can or cannot be played on a Walkmen, as it may hurt their image. There are big differences between those two comparisons, from a PR point of view, but still, it sucks, and I hate wondering what may be being blocked from being created because of the inherent conservatism of the games industry. It was probably part of the reason why Jaffe's Heartland game got the axe.

Red Hedgehog
06-20-2007, 11:16 PM
Edited. Man, I've been typing errors like Red Hedgehog wants be digging for gold in some corpse necks this summer

Ok, I was going to respond to your previous mischaracterization of what I said, but now I know you're just making fun of me. For the record, the controls of this game intrigue me. I have strangled/broken peoples' necks in Metal Gear games. Will this game with Wii controls bring me a more realistic strangling experience? Do I want that? All, interesting questions.

Really? I know many southern states (and the military) have laws against Sodomy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy) (btw the technical definition is anything not Missionary between a man and a woman). Doesn't matter if you only do it behind closed doors, if they have proof, they can and have arrested people

I can't believe I'm the first to respond to this. Does no one read the news? The US supreme court struck down a Texas anti-sodomy law. (http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy/) The ruling pretty much said there was a constitutional right to sexual privacy.

oh jesus christ and all his latter day saints. You can't have it both ways. either it is their platform to dictate, or it is not. Why shouldnt they be allowed to control their content?

One can acknowledge someone has a right to do what they want with their stuff and still be disappointed in what they do with it. People are disappointed that Nintendo and Sony aren't letting their game formats have any AO games, they aren't saying they shouldn't have the right. This reminds me of (and I may be risking a ban for this) the virtual console arguments that frequented old Talking Time.

Manhunt 2 is certainly a hard game to defend. I really can't see any incredible value in some of what hs been described in it. But I think the ones that are hardest to defend are the ones that most need defending. Because if you don't, then you need to define rules for what games can get made and what can't and I think that is much more of a slippery slope than allowing material some (most) would object to to be made.

ArugulaZ
06-20-2007, 11:19 PM
Its Alexb's line about being a hypocrite you need to look over again. Like the people saying the Rolling Stones were totally different from Prince, they had a soul, man, a soul! Not this Prince trash, it has nothing to fall back on, just plentiful booty.

Sweet merciful crap, you're not really comparing Prince to Manhunt, are you? If Manhunt is symbolic of the growth and evolution of the video game industry as you seem to suggest with your analogy, then what's going to be next? How far can Rockstar push the boundaries of good taste before you will concede that they've gone too far? CAN they go any further than this?

Thanks to games like Manhunt 2, this scene from Robot Chicken looks a lot less like a parody of Rockstar and a lot more like an accurate reflection of their output:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-g1dVoo7bk

JR

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 11:19 PM
So where is the "soul" of sticking a live cat in a microwave?

Oh god theres so many slopes people slip down here from just realizing its just a game. Soul, whatever, I used the word so you can fling it back at me, as I deserve, but somebody out there who would enjoy this game would read Shivam's posts and just mutter to get a grip. Its a good time to them, what difference does it make to you? More than likely they are not going to patrol the streets looking for a good neck to pound some good sperm into.

EDIT: Oh, yeah Red Hedge., I didn't mean any offense or whatever, just poking fun/using as an example.

shivam
06-20-2007, 11:26 PM
It makes a difference to me because all of the negative reprecussions that will stem from this game will affect everything else that i do enjoy. And frankly, i don't give a fuck what you play, but i care what i play, and i dont want the whole industry to be neutered because one game decided to see how far it could break the rules.

I play D&D. I know what happens when an industry gets screwed by politics and the media--demons become baatezu, and all occult and sexual references are completely gimped. Yet, if they had controlled themselves a little, done even the slightest bit of self policing, D&D would have been able to fly under the radar just fine, and maintain all of the mood and feel of the old versions.

Rockstar has pushed the envelope of good taste just fine with GTA. it got attention, it made a ruckus, and it made gaming as a whole better, by showing that some things are not as bad as they seem, and that violence and sex aren't boogymen to be afraid of.

manhunt, however, isn't the kid trying to break new ground, he's the guy who is throwing gas bombs into subway tunnels and yelling POISON!! just for shits and giggles. Gaming ill needs such a saviour.

and honestly? it's not just a game. we're talking our entire culture here. you said yourself that joe gamer isnt going to separate context from these things--manhunt will become emblematic of all that is wrong in gaming, and will be used to hurt the rest of us in one blanket ruling. Is this little slaughter sim really worth all that?

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 11:28 PM
Sweet merciful crap, you're not really comparing Prince to Manhunt, are you? If Manhunt is symbolic of the growth and evolution of the video game industry as you seem to suggest with your analogy, then what's going to be next? How far can Rockstar push the boundaries of good taste before you will concede that they've gone too far? CAN they go any further than this?

Thanks to games like Manhunt 2, this scene from Robot Chicken looks a lot less like a parody of Rockstar and a lot more like an accurate reflection of their output:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-g1dVoo7bk

JR

Yes, I'm comparing the two because Prince was in the same spot Manhunt was in because of lyrics about sex, homosexuality, and incest. The same stupid shit was said about him when he was defended, with people getting all self-riteous about how dare people, HOW DARE they compare Prince to something like the Beatles, how dare you!!! Same goes heavy metal, which may be a better comparison because its "dumb" entertainment.

Its fake, people can tell, what is wrong with you with not being able to realize that? You can tell its fake; whats make you think theres this huge sea of people who can't. This notion of things getting pushed too far, how far will they go, how will they destroy civilization next is absurd and, unless you picked up a sign outside of Rockstar's office for any of the GTAs, or because of Doom, or Mortal Kombat, or Twisted Metal, or 2 Live Crew, or Madonna, or U2 for writing a song called Exit, about being in the mind of a killer, that apparently "forced" someone to go out and kill someone, you're being a hypocrite. Should that song be taken off the CD? What will U2 do next!?!?! Its all completely insane. People knows its entertainment, they do not give a shit. Marilyn Manson didn't make people go out in waves and blow shit up, neither did GTA, neither does any of this stuff.

Freedom of speech doesn't defend you, it defends the person next to you.

djSyndrome
06-20-2007, 11:43 PM
For anyone who feels that game consoles should be 'open' to all software regardless of quality or theme, perhaps you should give yourself a little history lesson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1984). Bad shit happens when publishers are allowed to dump whatever they want onto console media.

Manhunt 2 is bad for the industry for the reasons mentioned above. As far as kids being allowed to play it, the ESRB has no teeth, and there is no regulation on game sales at the federal level. Realistically, Sony and Nintendo's moves to not allow this game to be published is the only thing preventing nine-year-olds from taking home a copy of this awful, pointless game.

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 11:43 PM
It makes a difference to me because all of the negative reprecussions that will stem from this game will affect everything else that i do enjoy. And frankly, i don't give a fuck what you play, but i care what i play, and i dont want the whole industry to be neutered because one game decided to see how far it could break the rules.

I play D&D. I know what happens when an industry gets screwed by politics and the media--demons become baatezu, and all occult and sexual references are completely gimped. Yet, if they had controlled themselves a little, done even the slightest bit of self policing, D&D would have been able to fly under the radar just fine, and maintain all of the mood and feel of the old versions.

Rockstar has pushed the envelope of good taste just fine with GTA. it got attention, it made a ruckus, and it made gaming as a whole better, by showing that some things are not as bad as they seem, and that violence and sex aren't boogymen to be afraid of.

manhunt, however, isn't the kid trying to break new ground, he's the guy who is throwing gas bombs into subway tunnels and yelling POISON!! just for shits and giggles. Gaming ill needs such a saviour.

and honestly? it's not just a game. we're talking our entire culture here. you said yourself that joe gamer isnt going to separate context from these things--manhunt will become emblematic of all that is wrong in gaming, and will be used to hurt the rest of us in one blanket ruling. Is this little slaughter sim really worth all that?

The video game industry just needs to let out a collective fuck you to these people. The music industry did it, so can the gamers. There are enough progressive thinking people willing to accept checks in Washington who help these matters out. D&D is an example of something that knew how silly everyone was being but became weenies all of sudden. They should have just said fuck you, you dorks, I'm going to roll dice with my horned character.

And those losers can think whatever they want of you. What're they gonna do beat the shit out you ironically because of their protest towards the game? We've all listened to punk rock in one shape or another and told whoever to fuck off, we've all had clothes and haircuts that are supposed to deem us loser druggies and we've said fuck off, because we know better. If I said, "How dare you Shivam for playing X Game you enjoy, how dare you, why I say, I say, I say, I used to play proper games, nonononononon don't show me that game, I know exactly whats in there, I don't need to see it, I've already up my mind, and its apparently destroyed yours!" You'd probably tell me to get a life. If anything we can use this to nener nener nener in the faces of those who have to deal with yet another wave of punk rock, probably the same people who don't like the Sex Pistols being stocked in Wal-Mart.

shivam
06-20-2007, 11:46 PM
but is being confrontational really the best way to do this?

PHATTOM
06-20-2007, 11:47 PM
For anyone who feels that game consoles should be 'open' to all software regardless of quality or theme, perhaps you should give yourself a little history lesson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_crash_of_1984). Bad shit happens when publishers are allowed to dump whatever they want onto console media.

I'm still up for it. The music industry can put out records that don't sell and those that do. Its a different industry now. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's standards have let in turd after turd after turd game play wise. It costs so much to make now not everyone would go out and make the new ET.

As for limiting distribution, give me a break every big retailer would be more than knowledgeable on this particular game possibly coming into stores. Methods would be devised and enforced because everyone would know just how much the people would be looking at this game, waiting for the first person to go fuck a neck. Its not that hard to tell retailers to not sell or rent this game to children and to tell information to the customer about what they are purchasing before they spend money on it. They did it for Lennon and Ono's Two Virgins albums, they can do it for this.

Schmidt
06-20-2007, 11:51 PM
It makes a difference to me because all of the negative reprecussions that will stem from this game will affect everything else that i do enjoy. And frankly, i don't give a fuck what you play, but i care what i play, and i dont want the whole industry to be neutered because one game decided to see how far it could break the rules.
Again, caveat: This is not being handled the same way in Europe. But in the USA, the best possible scenario is exactly what is happening and you should feel relieved that events have gone down they way they have. Take Two have developed a game that falls into the established category of AO by the ESRB, a rating organization. As such, the two consoles it was slated for will not publish it. This is the industry working, it's self regulating, self enforcing, the government isn't stepping in and doing anything. This isn't the industry being neutered, this honestly helps our case the next time some idiot tries to pass a law outright banning the sale of M-rated games or something stupid. I don't know where you are, if you're outside the US it's obviously a different story and this might not be applicable to your specific situation, but it's worth pointing out in general in the thread if not as a response to you alone.

djSyndrome
06-20-2007, 11:52 PM
I'm still up for it. The music industry can put out records that don't sell and those that do. Its a different industry now. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo's standards have let in turd after turd after turd game play wise. It costs so much to make now not everyone would go out and make the new ET.

Apples and oranges. The console manufacturers' fortunes in hardware sales are directly tied to the quality of the games that they allow to be published in any particular region. Nintendo knows this too well by being too stringent and allowing themselves to be pigeonholed as a 'kiddie' company.

CDs are an open standard and are not tied to hardware. Just because I buy a CD from the Sony music group doesn't mean I have to play it on a Sony CD player.

I've spent the last ten minutes reading this entire thread, and I feel that you're simply shooting from the hip here and not thinking things through before you hit that magical post button.

shivam
06-20-2007, 11:52 PM
i agree. i applaud the esrb for actually doing its job.

PHATTOM
06-21-2007, 12:00 AM
but is being confrontational really the best way to do this?

Its certainly the most fun. I used to play rap and thrash metal as loud as I could so my parents, who deemed it the great decay on my mind, couldn't escape it. They eventually laughed it off and realized, yeah, we're being silly, he isn't going out and killing people or have any drug problems and/or illegitimate children. Same goes for dressing like a glam rock Kurt Cobain, which they were somehow still offended by. I had fun pissing them and neighborhood off and proved my point about how silly they were being. Punk rocks a lot of fun when you know you're right.

shivam
06-21-2007, 12:06 AM
that's just disrespectful. i think i'm just going to have to disagree with your point and find something else to concern myself with. this is obviously going nowhere fast.

Schmidt
06-21-2007, 12:06 AM
Nich, I understand you're talking to Patton, and I haven't quite followed the entirety of his back and forth with shivam, but it does bring up a point that I ignored in some of my own earlier posts, specifically when I said this:
What would be wrong is if the US government stepped in and said "You know what Rockstar? You can't release this game at all. Even on the PC. Even if Nintendo changes policy, or you tone it down to a "Mature" rating. You're just not allowed to make this game." It sounds like that's sort of what's happening in Europe, though I'm not familiar enough with their rating/regulatory systems to speak with any authority on that.
I'm misrepresenting myself there, because I sound like I'm all about moral relativism there too. I ignored the fact that the government does already draw lines at some point, and that I'm personally ok with that, and admittedly based on the fact that their lines roughly coincide with my lines more so than some crazy idea that it's their absolute perogative.

So yeah, if Take Two whipped up a child-pornography game, the US government would absolutely swoop in and put a stop to it, and I'd support that.

What I guess I more accurately mean is that, given we do already have some lines drawn, and I do approve of that line drawing, I wouldn't approve of it being redrawn on a whim, or inconsistently across different media, etc. I don't believe that Manhunt 2 crosses the already established legal limits for things like obscenity (based on the fact that the ESRB rated it at all, not from any first hand experience), and so, given that starting point, I think it would be wrong to start arbitrarily drawing more lines.

Makkara
06-21-2007, 05:00 AM
I know what you're saying, but the game industry is such a bunch of weenies that there will apparently never be a time in the near future where the people calling the shots will just say fuck all to all the conservative people in Washington.

Yeah, it turns out that telling people to fuck off isn't really good business practice. Annoying people with crappy music or goofy outfits is all well and good if you're a teenager, because you don't have to concern yourself with the realities of human society as long as your parents feed and clothe you. Nintendo and Sony don't have parents. Their business relies largely on having a positive image in the eyes of parents. Allowing neck-fucking, tit-hat-wearing games on their consoles isn't the best way to ensure that.

ArugulaZ
06-21-2007, 05:05 AM
Yes, I'm comparing the two because Prince was in the same spot Manhunt was in because of lyrics about sex, homosexuality, and incest. The same stupid shit was said about him when he was defended, with people getting all self-riteous about how dare people, HOW DARE they compare Prince to something like the Beatles, how dare you!!! Same goes heavy metal, which may be a better comparison because its "dumb" entertainment.

You're giving Manhunt 2 entirely too much credit. Prince is an important, groundbreaking figure in pop culture, who advanced the world of music by infusing classic funk with modern sensibilities. The same could be said for heavy metal icons like Metallica and Megadeth, who used their music to not only tap into the rage of disenfranchised youth, but to make important political statements.

The song "One" by Metallica decried the senselessness of war and violence by describing the plight of a soldier who stepped on a landmine and lost his limbs and all means of communication with the outside world. By contrast, Manhunt 2 celebrates death, violence, and anti-social behavior. It has no redeeming value. It does not offer any tangible benefit to society. You can't compare it to Prince, you can't compare it to Metallica, you can't even compare it to Howard Stern. The only comparison that Manhunt deserves is to a crazy man who walks into a random house, pulls down his pants, and shits on the carpet. It's senseless, tasteless, stinks to high heaven, and forces everybody else to clean up the mess.

Sometimes, there is an underlying purpose or quality to a controversial product. Manhunt doesn't have one. There is no deeper meaning here. Sometimes, shit is just shit, and that's exactly what Manhunt is. If shit is what you want to support, go right ahead, but the rest of us have higher expectations.

JR

Excitemike
06-21-2007, 06:03 AM
its not a matter of offending me. Its a matter of negatively affecting the whole goddamned industry at a time when gaming doesn't need any more bad press. Fucking push the envelope to hell and back for all i care, but just don't do it right now.

I'm not the one R* needs to worry about offending. They need to realise that when they piss off the government, it is not rockstar that is targeted, it is ALL OF GAMING. as a gamer, i don't want my hobby to be assraped because some fuckhead at rockstar thought it would be fun to make the most offensive game possible.

I have to respectfully disagree with you. There is never a good time to challenge people's expectations. Any backlash this game would receive will ultimately only serve to legitimize gaming, and if it makes even one parent think twice about buying GTA for their 10-year old then that's just gravy. Gaming will not be demystified by sweeping things like this under the rug.

There is also some language here, and in gaming websites in general that I want to address. The idea of people who play video games being some kind of unified front. This board is a good example that gamers are as varied as any other group of people who enjoy a mass medium. Rockstar's only responsibility is to their stockholders. Gaming is much too large to crumble because of one game, and too international to be forced to bow to one single government.

ArugulaZ
06-21-2007, 07:01 AM
Rockstar's only responsibility is to their stockholders.

Yet they've shown a complete disregard for them as well with a game that will definitely be delayed and could possibly be canceled outright thanks to its tacky content. The Manhunt 2 fiasco will almost certainly cost Take-Two millions of dollars and damage its already sullied reputation, making it more difficult to obtain funds for future projects. Take-Two has never been in worse shape than it is right now, and the last thing it needs is DMA's showboating antics endangering it further.

Also, the video game industry can legitimize itself without stooping to the lows of Manhunt 2. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem has done more to advance video games as an artform than Manhunt ever will.

JR

Torgo
06-21-2007, 07:27 AM
i think i'm just going to have to disagree with your point and find something else to concern myself with. this is obviously going nowhere fast.
I am down with this statement.

Nicholai
06-21-2007, 07:41 AM
Yet they've shown a complete disregard for them as well with a game that will definitely be delayed and could possibly be canceled outright thanks to its tacky content. The Manhunt 2 fiasco will almost certainly cost Take-Two millions of dollars and damage its already sullied reputation, making it more difficult to obtain funds for future projects. Take-Two has never been in worse shape than it is right now, and the last thing it needs is DMA's showboating antics endangering it further.

Also, the video game industry can legitimize itself without stooping to the lows of Manhunt 2. Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem has done more to advance video games as an artform than Manhunt ever will.

JR

They did not show disregard to their shareholders. They believed, just as Manhunt and GTA did along with other games by other companies, that Manhunt 2 would get an M rating and that the controversy surrounding the game and they way it pushes the limits would drive sales of the game. That is all about the shareholders. Did it fall apart on them and backfire? Yes. But I'm sure they didn't plan it this way.

The only thing that will legitimize (how people mean this is always varied and what they believe will happen when the industry becomes "legitimate" is always in question) the video game industry is time. The industry is just as large and powerful as several other "legitimate" forms of media. The same thing happened in other media. And Eternal Darkness, while a great game, did nothing to advance video games as an artform though neither has Manhunt. These games are not trying to be art. They are trying to sell, and neither one did a very good job of it.

As to other points brought up in this thread. Yes it is Sony and Nintendo's right to not publish the game if they don't want to. Yes Rockstar can make any sort of non-illegal (the child pornography point brought up before) game they want to make. The industry did a fine job of policing itself and the ESRB finally seems to be half-relevant. I highly doubt this will hurt the industry at large, beyond Take Two that is. And finally, with my American sensibilities, I dislike that the British government stepped in and banned the game, but the British government has been doing that for decades with media. There are still many movies which are "banned" in the UK, though they still find their way into the hands of British consumers because they are still published in the US. Manhunt 2 will most likely not be so lucky.

EDIT: I make no claims that this is any real loss for the UK, nor do I make any claims that the game is even worth playing.

Simple
06-21-2007, 07:54 AM
Now first of all i live in the uk, where this game is banned. Outright banned. Legally i can not play this game on any platform unless the bbfc changes it mind after a resubmission .

That said i could not care less, the title of this thread explains itself thoroughly and i couldn't be more happy about take two learning an obvious lesson, making a sequeal to a shit game for whose only selling point is the "outrageous" hype that surrounds it an excercise in stupidity.

Like bmxxx, thrill kill and other "Adult" games manhunt is just a poor generic game with the lure of the forbidden added to it. I don't deny that a company has the right to make shitty-ass games i wish they would just try that little bit harder and give gamers the respect they deserve.

PHATTOM
06-21-2007, 08:07 AM
DISCLAIMER: Last night as we took off our shirts and wrestled around, I was both drinking, playing Oblivion, and relaxing to some Daath, so I can use that as an excuse, not a reason, for my slow descent into incoherent madness. That conversation got a little embarrassing at times, by everyone, and I think I reached my peak of maximum Tom Berenger-ness by comparing my nine year self blasting Tupac and NWA records to the game industry, even if there is a little room for legitimizing said argument.

Anyways, I guess it comes down to me wondering why you guys are glad this game got banned from the consoles it was going to appear on in its original form? Do you think it would cause otherwise stable human beings to lose their mind? I know points are made elsewhere, but just lay them down again, in a calm manner, please.

P.S. Shivam, I could tell we were getting a bit saucy there last night. Did I rape you the neck before or something?

EDIT: P.P.S. As for Prince and Heavy Metal, those trying to ban it did not see them as anything progressive. Go watch the footage of people talking about these records; they have a hard time even sputtering out the word sex. Kinky but consensual progressive funk wasn't how Prince was viewed. Rather it was short black dude putting buns in his sisters oven. And I don't even like Megadeath. so when it comes to saying they were somehow pushing things forward I just say, sure, whatever, I guess to you. I think they stink, but if you don't, hey, thats your prerogative.

Kupek
06-21-2007, 08:25 AM
PHATTOM, I've only made it to page three of this thread, but several times you've argued a point no one here has made. You've argued that no one will go out and kill someone after playing Manhunt 2. Yet no one here has argued that. What people here have argued is that the rating is appropriate for the content, which I tend to agree with.

The Jack Thompsons will surely make this argument. But he is not here. So don't play with strawmen.

djSyndrome
06-21-2007, 08:31 AM
(random douchery)

Hey guys, last night I beat up my wife and had sex with the neighborhood cat. But I was drunk and listening to shitty music, so it's okay!

Nicholai
06-21-2007, 08:33 AM
Hey guys, last night I beat up my wife and had sex with the neighborhood cat. But I was drunk and listening to shitty music, so it's okay!

Ouch.

Red Hedgehog
06-21-2007, 08:44 AM
I wrote another response in this thread last night, but it was just at that point that gamespite.net went down, so I'll take that as a sign.

I guess the gist of it was: Nintendo (or Sony or whoever) allowing AO games on their console wouldn't lead to anything horrible happening. They still won't and that disappoints me, but I'll get over it.

PHATTOM
06-21-2007, 08:56 AM
Hey guys, last night I beat up my wife and had sex with the neighborhood cat. But I was drunk and listening to shitty music, so it's okay!

Yeah, Daath does stink, I don't know what the hell was going on there. And I wasn't drunk, just frosty.

And it seemed that people weren't just happy about the AO, which I could care less about, but that it wasn't going onto the machines, and that it had no right to, because of what they deemed appropriate. I was just trying to cut the point that there is no massive wave of impending doom that could come out of this game being released and using your own personal taste as the barometer for what should or should not be released, despite have a rating dictating that it offers extreme content, is silly and inappropriate. If there is no legitimate proof that this game will negatively effect society in a some manner, then you have no basis to call for a banning, and its even sadder that you're celebrating it.

As for this game not pushing society forward, who cares and what game does? Odin Sphere doesn't alter civilization, no progression comes out this. If anything, Rockstar releases have the tiniest shred of an opportunity to spurn discussion on whats appropriate to do in the real world.

And I find Syndromes post over-the-top, demoralizing, and inappropriate. It will probably cause me to do the acts he mentioned unless it is taken off the boards immediately, which Parish should unless he wants the public, whom I will inform in a manner I deem fit, to view him unsavory.

Red Hedgehog
06-21-2007, 09:37 AM
It turns out I was right to skeptical of the unsourced neck-raping, cat-nuking stuff. That was all made up by some NeoGAF poster (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164919&page=12) (see posts 568 and 570).

The More You Know™

BEAT
06-21-2007, 09:43 AM
The fact that this topic is now five pages long is nothing short of hilarious.

It's freaking Manhunt.

Let's just ignore it like we did the last one. Maybe if we keep it up they'll break down and go back to the think tank to find new ways to get our money.

Zef
06-21-2007, 10:18 AM
The fact that this topic is now five pages long is nothing short of hilarious.

It's freaking Manhunt.

Let's just ignore it like we did the last one. Maybe if we keep it up they'll break down and go back to the think tank to find new ways to get our money.
Indeed. I love how a multitude of forum posts (on Kotaku and elsewhere) consists of cries of "If they censor it, I won't buy it!" while, if not for all this controversy, the game would have probably made the tiniest blip on their radar. It's almost enough to make one think that Rockstar deliberately egged on the industry just to generate word of mouth, and that it was their purpose to "tone it down" to M afterwards.

(Yeah, I'm not much for conspiracy theories.)

Now, to paraphrase a famous quote: I don't agree (I really really don't) with what Rockstar is trying to say, but I will defend their right to say it. At the same time, I will also defend Nintendo, Sony, and MS' right to refuse to convey that message. Freedom of expression goes both ways, and my freedom ends where it infringes upon yours. Yet, at this moment, there is nothing to defend Manhunt 2 from*. Rockstar created the game to their own standards and specifications, it was given a rating that was deemed appropriate, and it stands to be released on whichever platform can carry it. What would give them the right to force their product on a manufacturer that doesn't want it?

I don't get where people think this is "censorship." After all, neither the ESRB nor a console manufacturer is part of the government. They're private businesses that, as long as they don't break the law or indulge in unfair practices, are well within their right to run themselves as they see fit. If they lose customers by choosing not to carry a product, that's their loss, and their prerogative.

* This applies to the situation in the US market only, not those countries where the game actually was banned.

Kirin
06-21-2007, 10:57 AM
For some reason I feel compelled to add to this, though after 5 pages it probably doesn't need it. Ah well.

I'm finding myself mostly agreeing with Red Hedgehog. I think the AO rating is probably completely appropriate. The problem here is that we don't have a *believable* distribution system for games that are genuinely only appropriate for and intended for adults, which is why the closed-format console companies won't touch them. Everyone thinks it'll be sold straight to 12-year-olds anyway.

Yet, almost every town has places you can get porn DVDs. Some of them are even respectable places. You put them behind a curtain, you check ID, it's not that hard. Why can't we do the same for games? It seems as though the industry still hasn't quite reached the point where people really believe that games can be made for any age group or other niche audience. I'm actually hoping the "casual games" revolution will help us get there, but it's still going to take a while.

That said, I have zero interest in actually playing Manhunt 2. My only "stake" in this, aside from general ideals, is that someday someone may make a game I *am* interested in that deserves an AO label, and as an adult of sound mind, I'd like to be able to decide to play it.

MattMc6502
06-21-2007, 12:13 PM
Matt's guide to getting the rating you want and generate publicity for your (most likely shitty) game:

1. Put in all of the questionable content that you want

2. Make that questionable content doubly "worse", or add content that you know will be shot down

3. Comply to the ratings board when they ask you to "tone down the content by one half if you want to receive a lower rating"

4. Bitch about having to comply, thus generating pointless and endless message board discussions, which of course leads to essentially free publicity

5. Enjoy the profits and be secretly amused that you got away with the content that you originally wanted anyway

Let's end the "freedom of speech" arguments, please - its a dead issue. Obviously Rockstar should be free to create this game. The main question though, what everyone is essentially saying once you remove the layers of BS, is: "If you are interested in playing Manhunt, does that make you a sick amoral person who is dangerous to society?"

The answer, to me, is an obvious no. If you are interested in and get off on committing murder, its too late for a game like Manhunt to corrupt you. If you are teetering on the edge of whether murder is acceptable, its too late for a game like Manhunt to corrupt you. I imagine a game like Manhunt would be quite boring and unsatisfying for you.

A work of art, whether sublime or shitty, can only influence a person's moral compass or outlook on life if that person is suffering from a mild to severe mental disorder that leaves them so easily influenced by fiction. Granted, children and teenagers are very easily influenced, but the only hope is that their parents or other adults are providing a good example to trump "bad" examples like Manhunt.

I agree that its naive to think most parents and adults are doing so, however.

I also strongly disagree with the ban in the UK for all the reasons I outlined above.

Psyael
06-21-2007, 01:38 PM
Since I've last posted, I've learned three things:

1) Talking Time might be wound up a little too tight right now.

2) PHATTOM probably needs some sort of temporary tard-harshin' to settle his hash for the moment. What the hell, guy? Book publishers aren't obligated to publish every book that shows up on their table, but you're saying that's a rejection letter = a free speech infringement.

3) Kitty Microwave, Neckhole Sex, etc was all a joke originated by the NeoGAF forums and now everyone thinks it's in the game.

Eusis
06-21-2007, 01:48 PM
3) Kitty Microwave, Neckhole Sex, etc was all a joke originated by the NeoGAF forums and now everyone thinks it's in the game.
Explains why I never found a reliable source mentioning this. Now it's back to wondering if the game really earned that rating.

ArugulaZ
06-21-2007, 02:10 PM
I just want to make it clear that I don't support governments banning the game outright. Europe has a sad history of doing this, and I feel that it violates the civil rights of the people who live there while treating them in the most condescending way possible.

However, I don't have a problem with Sony and Nintendo barring Manhunt 2 from THEIR game systems. If Rockstar wants to go the Color Dreams route and publish the game without Sony's approval, they can try that. I don't think the security system inside the PS2 is really that hard to break... I've got two unlicensed discs in my collection that run on an unmodded system (the HDTV player and the HD Loader), so why not games too? Besides, it seems appropriate for a game like this to be unlicensed, you know? It's in that fine tradition of Robodemons, Death Race 2000, and Tagin' Dragon as a game that doesn't really DESERVE a seal of approval.

JR

ShakeWell
06-21-2007, 02:30 PM
Holy crap! This thread exploded!

There's a couple of things going on here... 1) Freedom of Speech is what separates us from the vast majority of other nations, even essentially free places like the UK. Our government could not, under ANY circumstances ban Manhunt 2, and we should be grateful.

That being said, 2) Nintendo & Sony also have the defacto right to deny any game from being published on their platforms. This was addressed years ago in the NES days when developers claimed they could make anything they want. Nintendo said no, Nintendo went to court, Nintendo won. So, if Sony and Nintendo want to keep AO games off of their systems, that's fine by me.

My real issue here is 3) A lot of folks around here talking about how this game is garbage, how it's disrespectful to gamers (whatever the fuck that even means), and how it SHOULDN'T be produced at all. Well, I haven't played it, and not that Shivam hasn't demonstrated decent taste in games (I have a PSM subscription), I would like to make that determination on my own. The game might be completely excessive violence with no "good guy" and have clunky, awful controls, but I want to play it to find out. Why? Because fake violence is entertaining to me. It's not anyone's place to pass judgment on me and say that I'm (insert derogatory remark here) because I enjoy these things. I liked Hostel. I liked Audition. I liked the first Manhunt. So what? Does that mean I have worse taste than you? Maybe... I guess I don't really care.

As for showing gamers respect? How about showing me the respect of putting out a product, and letting me choose to play it/buy it/rent it or not of my own accord? How would that be?

So, I respect Sony and Nintendo's decisions to not let the game be published if it's not amended one way or another to M, but I also don't think that anyone has a right to say what Rockstar can or can't spend its money developing and releasing.

Andrew
06-21-2007, 02:38 PM
Explains why I never found a reliable source mentioning this. Now it's back to wondering if the game really earned that rating.

My bad--somebody instant messaged it to me.

R* needs to put up a highlight reel of the stuff they showed the ESRB.

PHATTOM
06-21-2007, 02:42 PM
My whole thing was basically equating game publishers to a print publisher, where if someone had the idea for a game, found someone to pay for it, they could put it on the system they developed for and retailers could stock whatever they saw fit, as they do with all other media. There aren't only three paper manufacturing companies whom decide what gets put on their product and what doesn't. I'm not even really picking up some flag and going to battle over it, just wishing out loud. They're just video games.

Edit: Didn't Shivam see the game?

Jonathan
06-21-2007, 03:12 PM
My whole thing was basically equating game publishers to a print publisher, where if someone had the idea for a game, found someone to pay for it, they could put it on the system they developed for and retailers could stock whatever they saw fit, as they do with all over media. There aren't only three paper manufacturing companies whom decide what gets put on their product and what doesn't. I'm not even really picking up some flag and going to battle over it, just wishing out loud. They're just video games.

Edit: Didn't Shivam see the game?

Referring to O. J. Simpson's "If I Did It," I suggest that there are books which, based on content and tact, are unlikely to be picked up by the majority of publishers. Rockstar has the option to pursue publishing on PC, just as Simpson has the alternative to self publish.

I cannot sympathize with Rockstar. They were aware of the ESRB's tendencies. They were aware of the conditions by which Nintendo and Sony publish software. I cannot fault Nintendo or Sony for their policies related to AO content. The content they choose to allow on their system is published at their discretion, and that appears to be their right. They are not telling adults what is and is not appropriate for adults, but rather stating what is and is not appropriate for Nintendo and Sony's own systems.

I believe the focus should be on Rockstar's discretion to invest in a game that pushes boundaries. It is likely a poor business decision, a gamble, that Rockstar was aware of and pursued despite the assessed risk.

Simple
06-21-2007, 03:26 PM
So, I respect Sony and Nintendo's decisions to not let the game be published if it's not amended one way or another to M, but I also don't think that anyone has a right to say what Rockstar can or can't spend its money developing and releasing.

I don't work for Rockstar and so do not have any direct input into what they may invest their money in developing. However as a consumer i can also choose what to purchase and utilise my free choice not to purchase crap games. My argument here isn't that violent games can't be fun- i enjoy the GTA series and bully and a number of other games that violence plays a key role-but the original Manhunt was tedious and badly designed and had no real merit as a game.

My point is that Manhunt has a legal right to exist and Rockstar can invest in anything they want, but the original game sucked ass and i doubt that they spent any time improving the game when they knew they could just throw in some more "explicit" material and that would justify the sequel.

But maybe I'm crazy for expecting more for my money than the same old shit rehashed

Red Hedgehog
06-21-2007, 05:55 PM
3) Kitty Microwave, Neckhole Sex, etc was all a joke originated by the NeoGAF forums and now everyone thinks it's in the game.

Explains why I never found a reliable source mentioning this. Now it's back to wondering if the game really earned that rating.

:( I pointed that out too.

Deadguy2322
06-21-2007, 05:55 PM
... Faces is a documentary, filled with footage of actual, real people actually, really dying..


Hate to break it to you kid, but that is an urban legend. The Faces movies are all re-enactments and staged footage. Badly staged, with poor effects, at that.

RAC
06-21-2007, 08:17 PM
Its certainly the most fun. I used to play rap and thrash metal as loud as I could so my parents, who deemed it the great decay on my mind, couldn't escape it. They eventually laughed it off and realized, yeah, we're being silly, he isn't going out and killing people or have any drug problems and/or illegitimate children. Same goes for dressing like a glam rock Kurt Cobain, which they were somehow still offended by. I had fun pissing them and neighborhood off and proved my point about how silly they were being. Punk rocks a lot of fun when you know you're right.

Ah, now I see why you'd side with Rockstar on this.

(Sorry if any or all of this has been said before, my eyes glazed over a page back.)

I really don't care about the free-speech implications of this decision because there aren't any- while I do not blah blah, I will defend to the blah your blah to blah blah, etc. It's a corporate decision, and the consolemakers have refusal over what's allowed on their systems. It's the stupid Imus thing again- he has the right to be a dumbass and his employers and sponsors have the right to say "Hey, we're not footing the bill for you to be a dumbass anymore." Simple issue.

Like that simple issue- assuming Manhunt 2 is anything like Manhunt 1- it's just Rockstar being dumbasses. Doing the most outrageous thing they can think of just to get your attention. Putting them on the level of Imus, nearly all of talk radio, or some teenager trying to cheese off their parents. Dumbasses. We can't actually stop dumbassery, and shouldn't, of course, but we don't have to promise it an audience either.

(If at the age I assume you to have been you were actually trying to challenge your parents' perceptions and that wasn't just a pleasant side-effect of pissing them off, yay for you, you're ahead of the curve.)

Now into my own half-baked rant!

The thing that annoys me with Rockstar is they're picking a really shitty time to be dumbasses. Games like this are things politicians love to talk about, and there's an election coming up where there are no actually important political issues that either party can be particularly proud of right now. Get it?

If the Rockstar dumbasses want to paint a bullseye on somebody's favorite hobbies, it could at least not be mine. Rockstar is the idiot conspiracy nut drawing attention to himself that lets all the rational arguments in favor of a cause go unnoticed. Yeah, that guy has a right to be there, but it would be nice if somebody shut him the Goddamn hell up every now and then so that someone intelligent might be heard.

ShakeWell
06-21-2007, 09:33 PM
@ Simple: I totally agree with you. I also have the right not to spend money on C&C3 because I don't like RTSs. I wasn't going after you at all. I was just stating my opinion. We agree.

@Deadguy2322: Didn't know that. Never really had the urge to watch the film(s). But what's with "kid"? And really, that only supports my original point, which is that if no one is hurting anyone, it should be allowed to be distributed. I quote John Stuart Mill, "If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in silencing mankind."

Eusis
06-21-2007, 10:00 PM
:( I pointed that out too.

Sorry 'bout that, I kinda stopped paying full attention when the bit about Hinduism being the same as Manhunt or whatever happened.

ArugulaZ
06-22-2007, 01:14 AM
I think RAC hit the nail on the head with his post... and seeing Rockstar referred to as "dumbasses" repeatedly was like the icing on the cake!

JR

PHATTOM
06-22-2007, 07:29 AM
Ah, now I see why you'd side with Rockstar on this.

(Sorry if any or all of this has been said before, my eyes glazed over a page back.)

I really don't care about the free-speech implications of this decision because there aren't any- while I do not blah blah, I will defend to the blah your blah to blah blah, etc. It's a corporate decision, and the consolemakers have refusal over what's allowed on their systems. It's the stupid Imus thing again- he has the right to be a dumbass and his employers and sponsors have the right to say "Hey, we're not footing the bill for you to be a dumbass anymore." Simple issue.

Like that simple issue- assuming Manhunt 2 is anything like Manhunt 1- it's just Rockstar being dumbasses. Doing the most outrageous thing they can think of just to get your attention. Putting them on the level of Imus, nearly all of talk radio, or some teenager trying to cheese off their parents. Dumbasses. We can't actually stop dumbassery, and shouldn't, of course, but we don't have to promise it an audience either.

(If at the age I assume you to have been you were actually trying to challenge your parents' perceptions and that wasn't just a pleasant side-effect of pissing them off, yay for you, you're ahead of the curve.)

Now into my own half-baked rant!

The thing that annoys me with Rockstar is they're picking a really shitty time to be dumbasses. Games like this are things politicians love to talk about, and there's an election coming up where there are no actually important political issues that either party can be particularly proud of right now. Get it?

If the Rockstar dumbasses want to paint a bullseye on somebody's favorite hobbies, it could at least not be mine. Rockstar is the idiot conspiracy nut drawing attention to himself that lets all the rational arguments in favor of a cause go unnoticed. Yeah, that guy has a right to be there, but it would be nice if somebody shut him the Goddamn hell up every now and then so that someone intelligent might be heard.

There are quite a few pre-Revoltech Eva figures by Kaiyodo, mainly sculpted by Revoltech creator Katsuhisa Yamaguchi. They're probably not as poseable as the later line, and use plain old hinges at the elbow and knee. Basically, if your Eva was made before last year and/or doesn't have the spherical Revoltech joints at the knees, ankles and elbows, it's most likely not a Revoltech Eva.

One of these days I'm gonna grab the Revoltech Mazinkaiser, since it's the only `Kaiser that's not hideously expensive.

Since I can't get the Gundam version yet, I'll probably look at this when it comes out. Speaking of which, I'm certain that three-character squad thing will end up in Dynasty Warriors Gundam 2, since that's typical for Mobile Suit squads in most Gundam series.

I can't be the only person who buys toys and talks and writes entirely too much about them. Okay, I could be, but I'm willing to take that chance.

I got the Transformers Movie Bumblebee figure today, and he is good. I like how they're handling the Automorph feature, because it doesn't transform the whole thing for me- the hood shifts around to become a torso when you push a button, and there's some simple but somehow impressive geared action between the foot/rear bumper and calf/rear windshield. So it's got both a nifty action feature and fiddly Transformersness, which is a good balance.

Despite a lot of fanshriek about the styling, in the broader sense- door wings behind shoulders, shoulder-mounted missile launchers, car hood torso- he could've come right the hell out of 1984. Though his face reminds me a lot of the bug Jedi in the Star Wars prequels.

I'm also looking forward to the movie "Authentic Action" line of non-transformable toys because it's based on Kaiyodo's Revoltech series, and I want to know if that Mazinkaiser is actually worth it.

So far the automorph stuff is working okay for me though I'm having a little trouble lately in getting Bumblebee's hood lined back up when I retract it for car mode. I got Wreckage on Friday, and I like him overall- vehicle mode's a bit boxy, but not too bad.

I don't have a lot of game-based figures, but I'm hoping to get Angelo and Jessica to round out my Play Arts DQ8 set soon. And someday, I hope we will see a Samus figure that doesn't suck.

Torgo
06-22-2007, 07:39 AM
You forgot the bold the 'Y' in 'Yeah'. Fail.

Excitemike
06-22-2007, 07:40 AM
In before thread locked.

PHATTOM
06-22-2007, 07:48 AM
Someday in the near future theres going to be a generation gap with games and some of you are going to be cut off because you perceive some games coming out not be on par with the intelligence, sophistication, and all around family friendliness of Odin Sphere. Right before your very eyes you're becoming the new Tipper Gore alliance, all because of something that differs from your taste and therefore could not possibly be in line with someone else's. Or you're becoming pandering jackasses who bow down to any pressure anywhere from anyone. I loooooooovvvveeee how this industry just absolutely loves to bath itself in accolades of being the new rock n' roll, with all these rock stars and being the cusp of a new frontier of entertainment, and then when anything happens that proclaims it thinks what you're doing is crap, we all have to mindlessly agree and pander away. Why do you care if the government thinks what you're doing is wrong? They never get away with it, ever. So they trick a couple of voters into thinking they're this great warrior against youth culture, big deal. There isn't this wide audience of people who decide who to vote for because of their track record on video game issues. But, but, but, we want our games about fairies and gladiators and cute monsters that come flying out of balls to be taken seriously!!!! Why, they're called video games, do you see the silliness of that word? Just get ready for it when the internet and technology catches up with games and punk rock nener nener neners in your guys faces and you all get left behind.

djSyndrome
06-22-2007, 07:49 AM
For fuck's sake, just shut the hell up. Seriously.

Torgo
06-22-2007, 07:50 AM
That must explain why so many of our members have XBL accounts: They're too busy playing Odin Sphere and Pokemon.

Zef
06-22-2007, 08:02 AM
and you all get left behind.

What, you mean this (http://www.leftbehindgames.com/)? I thought it was cancelled for being too violent towards minorities...

VsRobot
06-22-2007, 08:12 AM
Movies get rated NC-17 and are then recut to get an R all the time. Sometimes movies get an R but the producers wanted a PG-13 so they get recut and resubmitted. Chain movie theaters choose not to exhibit NC-17 films, most newspapers won't accept ads for them. This deprives adults the chance to see films made expressly for adults, instead everything has to be child-safe.

The only difference is that DVD players are an open platform so that their is an outlet for those movies to be shown uncut in extended versions. However, Manhunt 2 could conceivably come out as a two-disc set, with the second disc being a non-interactive DVD of the kills that were cut from the game, and it would probably get an R rating if submitted to the MPAA.

openedsource
06-22-2007, 08:23 AM
What, you mean this (http://www.leftbehindgames.com/)? I thought it was cancelled for being too violent towards minorities...

Yeah, but you can still pick up Generation Gap (http://www.key20.com/product.php?productid=52) if you wanted to.

Hurry, before they turn it into a First Person Shooter!

Parish
06-22-2007, 08:24 AM
Hi guys! Thanks for turning dumb! Phattom's ad hominem attacks are especially helpful.