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View Full Version : Selection for Societal Sanity: Metal Gear Solid 2


Parish
05-10-2008, 04:07 PM
Hey guys, let's get postmodern!

Metal Gear Solid 2:Sons of Liberty / Substance
Konami | PS2 | Action | 2001

Xbox version also allowed, but man do I feel bad for you.

Part of me feels like we should hold off on this one until after MGS4 is released, because MGS2 will make a lot more sense once you've finished 4. But, eh, consistency.

reibeatall
05-10-2008, 04:17 PM
Nich and I were just discussing this game yesterday, and it gave me the strongest urge to play it. Now everybody's gonna be playing it, and I guess I'll have to as well.

Parish
05-10-2008, 04:38 PM
Ohhhhhh god the game camera is so bad. Dear Konami, please offer us a remake. But not by Ryuhei Kitamura.

Sanagi
05-10-2008, 04:46 PM
I actually recently acquired this, and have never played through it before. I got FFXII at the same time and that took all my attention.

SilentSnake
05-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Oh hell yes. I've been waiting for this one. This is the game that made me fall in love with Metal Gear (i.e. it was my first one). Consequently, this may be why I might seem more forgiving of some things in this game than other people. Rose-colored glasses and all that. But still, I really like this game.

Crested Penguin
05-10-2008, 04:51 PM
I saw an article somewhere that was titled GTA4: The First Postmodern videogame. I was basically screaming inside.

Actually related to the game: Raiden being pissy is less annoying than I remember. But he is pissy, it just seems kind of funny now.

Am I bad for skipping the tanker? I've just done it so many times now. I did go and rewatch Ocelot steal Ray, just for the "I live on... through this arm!!!" line.

SilentSnake
05-10-2008, 04:55 PM
I saw an article somewhere that was titled GTA4: The First Postmodern videogame. I was basically screaming inside.

Actually related to the game: Raiden being pissy is less annoying than I remember. But he is pissy, it just seems kind of funny now.

Am I bad for skipping the tanker? I've just done it so many times now. I did go and rewatch Ocelot steal Ray, just for the "I live on... through this arm!!!" line.

I don't blame you for that. Every single one of my false starts with this game sees me playing through 9/10 of the tanker chapter then getting distracted with another game. It's a little ridiculous how many times I went through that damned tanker.

Jakanden
05-10-2008, 05:15 PM
I actually just finished this. As in, the credits are scrolling right now while I am waiting for the final conversation.

I didn't hate Raiden as much as most people back when it came out, but goddamn I hate him now, especially after having played through MGS3 and MGS1 right before it. He is a whiny bastard and everything he says makes me want to smack him. I kept telling myself "Just remember he is a bad-ass in MGS4".

After playing through this three times and reading the ending analysis awhile back, I actually understand what is going on with the story although there are still a few "huh?" things. Additionally, since the other games are still fresh in my mind, I caught a lot more references to them than I had before.

The game is still good overall even if the entire portion with EE makes me want to stab someone in the face. It is nowhere near as good as 1 or 3, but it is still worth playing through. I went for a zero kill run through but ended up killing 5 people.

Adrenaline
05-10-2008, 05:19 PM
I didn't hate Raiden as much as most people back when it came out, but goddamn I hate him now, especially after having played through MGS3 and MGS1 right before it. He is a whiny bastard and everything he says makes me want to smack him. I kept telling myself "Just remember he is a bad-ass in MGS4".

I was the opposite. The second time I played through, well after the release, he didn't bother me so much. It's really only when he's talking to Rose that he sucks. This was before the MGS4 trailer showing him as a bad ass, for the record.

SilentSnake
05-10-2008, 05:55 PM
I don't like the fact that there is so little to find that is out of the ordinary in the Tanker. I mean aside from Box 1 and some skimpy girly posters, it really is just a straight line with a couple of branches. I know it is an introduction level, but after experiencing the Big Shell its just a letdown. I'm finding myself exploring a little more to see if I missed anything when I used to play. I really don't see any point in some of the areas here.

Odin
05-10-2008, 09:46 PM
I think I'll join in on this. I replayed the whole series last fall so I didn't feel like taking the time out of all the other games I'm playing to "catch up" AGAIN before MGS4, but I should at least refresh myself on Sons of Liberty.

This will be my 4th time through the whole game, I think. I played it a couple times through back when it came out, then again with Substance. For extra challenge (in understanding the plot), I'll play it in Japanese! Better get my dictionary...

estragon
05-10-2008, 10:38 PM
I'm so in on this once the MGO Beta ends tonight.

This is my favorite MGS game. Not the best, but my favorite.

Eusis
05-10-2008, 10:46 PM
Part of me feels like we should hold off on this one until after MGS4 is released, because MGS2 will make a lot more sense once you've finished 4. But, eh, consistency.
That's convinced me to just wait until then! Also the fact I didn't get the Essentials box yet so I'd have to play the Xbox version.

... Actually, I didn't think the port was THAT bad, but the hassle of setting up the Xbox just for this and the giant list of saves to mess with is pretty offputting.

pence
05-10-2008, 11:20 PM
Go activate the node!

The nerd?

No, the node!

Paraphrased from memory, dialog that made me cringe. I suppose I should replay this, however I really want to understand its plot. So I think I'll do as Parish half-suggests and wait until MGS4.

Mr. Sensible
05-11-2008, 12:12 AM
Crap, I just played through this, like, a month ago. On Hard, even!

First fight with Vamp gets my vote as the single most annoying MGS boss fight ever.

pence
05-11-2008, 12:13 AM
First fight with Vamp gets my vote as the single most annoying MGS boss fight ever.

I seem to remember using stinger missiles on him the last time I played. It was my last resort after several futile attempts.

Adrenaline
05-11-2008, 12:16 AM
To be honest, I think the series' bosses fall into the "annoying" category more often than the "awesome" category. But there are enough awesome ones for them to have a good reputation.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 12:22 AM
I seem to remember using stinger missiles on him the last time I played. It was my last resort after several futile attempts.

The grenade launcher is a popular choice, as well. Ending the fight through non-lethal means is still an inescapably tedious matter, though. You'd have to be the Green Arrow to reliably fire tranquilizer rounds at his head while he's jumping and dancing around, and while you can chuck stun grenades into the water while he's swimming around, it's a total crap-shoot whether any of them land a hit.

estragon
05-11-2008, 12:44 AM
First fight with Vamp gets my vote as the single most annoying MGS boss fight ever.

I don't have a problem with that fight. Fat Man, however, is just ridiculously irritating, especially on difficulty settings where he doesn't stop to breathe.

When I was collecting dog tags to get the steal item, having to beat Fat Man on Hard was by far the most irritating point of 3 run throughs each on different difficulties through the Tanker and Big Shell sections.

As a side note about all those run throughs, I noticed there is really barely any gameplay in MGS2 while doing this. The tanker takes about half an hour without cutscenes, and big shell takes maybe about 3 hours or so, even while collecting everyone's dog tags.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 12:48 AM
Fatman was infuriating until I realized about three torso-shots from the SOCOM will knock him off his feet, without doing more damage than the ensuing tranquilizer headshots, so you can still get your stun victory.

estragon
05-11-2008, 12:52 AM
Fatman was infuriating until I realized about three torso-shots from the SOCOM will knock him off his feet, without doing more damage than the ensuing tranquilizer headshots, so you can still get your stun victory.

Yeah, this is what I did too. But I still think it's irritating. It's like an incredibly tedious and boring version of the Raven fight from MGS1 with momentum killing bomb defusing interludes.

Mr. Sensible
05-11-2008, 12:54 AM
To be honest, I think the series' bosses fall into the "annoying" category more often than the "awesome" category. But there are enough awesome ones for them to have a good reputation.

I'd argue MGS2 was responsible for the worst of the lot:

1. Olga - short, easy intro boss fight with a few neat tricks (billowing tarp, spotlight)
2. Fortune - Does...does this even count?
3. Fatman - Bomb freeze-athons are more tedious than difficult.
4. Harrier - God, what I would give to be able to use Gears of War's cover system in this fight. A decent camera wouldn't hurt either.
5. Vamp - STOP SWIMMING YOU ASSHOLE
6. Vamp Part Deux - I totally shot you and she still dies? Shit!
7. Metal Gear Hell - For god's sake, don't stand still for longer than five seconds. Everything else is pretty much gravy once you get that sweet rythym going.
8. Solidus - [insert light saber noises]

In summary, a couple of cool fights, a couple gimmicky ones, and the rest are just effing frustrating.

estragon
05-11-2008, 01:05 AM
II'll play it in Japanese!

Can you say, 隠蔽物?

Seriously though, playing through the metal gear games has caused my military/weapons/nuclear related vocabulary to shoot through the roof. Have a good time with this.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 01:12 AM
此方SNAKE。
聞こえるか、大佐?

That's...that's all I got.

estragon
05-11-2008, 01:23 AM
此方SNAKE。
聞こえるか、大佐?

That's...that's all I got.

One of the things I like about the Japanese MGO is that most everyone spells the Snake yell as, "sneeeek!" or something like that. Which is an awesome bastard child of the English and katakana spellings of his name.

As a side note, 此方 is definitely just こちら in MGS. You tend not to see that in written in kanji unless you're reading pretty high falutin' literature. (Or at least something that's a little bit old.)

Tomm Guycot
05-11-2008, 01:24 AM
In my opinion:

Bosses in MGS1 = great for their time

Bosses in MGS2 = really annoying, with epic (but annoying) final bosses

Bosses in MGS3 = great for ALL time

mopinks
05-11-2008, 01:29 AM
As a side note, 此方 is definitely just こちら in MGS. You tend not to see that in written in kanji unless you're reading pretty high falutin' literature. (Or at least something that's a little bit old.)

I never even knew you could write it in kanji. that's madness!

geeeeeez, I wish I didn't have such a busy month going on. I love MGS2 and I want to play through it again, but I have a few dozen other things I need to be doing instead.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 01:30 AM
One of the things I like about the Japanese MGO is that most everyone spells the Snake yell as, "sneeeek!" or something like that. Which is an awesome bastard child of the English and katakana spellings of his name.

As a side note, 此方 is definitely just こちら in MGS. You tend not to see that in written in kanji unless you're reading pretty high falutin' literature. (Or at least something that's a little bit old.)

Then can I assume 未だ is just まだ? As in...

スネーーークッ!!
まだな!!

Okay, seriously. That's all I got.

estragon
05-11-2008, 01:42 AM
Bosses in MGS3 = great for ALL time

This is a fact. While MGS2 remains my emotional favorite because it was the best overall experience the first time through, everything about the gameplay in MGS3 just holds up better on replays. I really enjoyed replaying MGS3, but collecting all those dogtags in MGS2 felt like a bit of a chore. The combination of first person aim and the radar system sort of breaks the game, I think. People complain about Twin Snakes being broken for taking this engine into MGS1, but honestly I feel like MGS2 is sort of broken by itself.

Accurate radar + first person aim + silent tranquilizers just makes the MGS experience really easy.

That being said, I like this game a lot and am totally going to do an even more broken runthrough by finally using that stealth stuff for this fun club.

I never even knew you could write it in kanji. that's madness!

Oh, you can write pretty much anything in kanji. This does not mean, however, that even Japanese people can read what you write. Japanese quiz shows have tons of "how do you read this kanji for an ordinary word?" segments. (Personally, since I am sort of resigned to never being able to speak as well as a native, I put lots of effort into accumlating estoric kanji knowlege, which is something anyone can do with some persistence, especially if you like to read.)

EDIT:

Then can I assume 未だ is just まだ? As in...

Oh, yeah, definitely. Also, 未だ is usually read いまだ, which is a different word entirely. The まだ reading of that technically exists but I've never, ever seen it used, even in books that use a fair amount of silly old kanji writings of simple words.

/ruining the thread with pointless information

mopinks
05-11-2008, 02:00 AM
Oh, you can write pretty much anything in kanji. This does not mean, however, that even Japanese people can read what you write. Japanese quiz shows have tons of "how do you read this kanji for an ordinary word?" segments. (Personally, since I am sort of resigned to never being able to speak as well as a native, I put lots of effort into accumlating estoric kanji knowlege, which is something anyone can do with some persistence, especially if you like to read.)

I've been kicked in the ass once or fifty times by mysterious archaic kanji while trying to translate song lyrics. damn crafty artistic types! it's no better when they pull never-before-seen kanji compounds out of thin air, and I have to figure out the meaning and the intended reading, the jerks.

Parish
05-11-2008, 02:02 AM
メタルギア!?

MGS2 definitely has the least interesting bosses of all the Solid games. Olga was OK, but the rest can go bite a solid snake.

Also, I tend to find the opposite regarding the Tanker: it's linear, yeah, but it has the most interesting detail and sandbox elements. It's clearly the section that received the most attention and effort, having been used to show off lots of neat tech and AI concepts, so there's plenty to mess around with.

Also also, I pride myself on only taking down Vamp with the M9.

Merus
05-11-2008, 03:36 AM
I saw an article somewhere that was titled GTA4: The First Postmodern videogame. I was basically screaming inside.

The case can be made that Earthbound is postmodern.

I must admit I love how hostile the game is to its audience. See the bosses, for instance - the whole point is that you never really get to deliver the smackdown until Raiden stops pretending he's Solid Snake and gets his own identity (and, of course, once that happens the game goes 'ho shit you can't do that, we have to give the fanatics what they want! more goddamn solid snake for all eternity!'). I think Kojima could have been slightly less hostile, perhaps, because the sword is too good to save to the end.

I shall be playing along...on PC! I'm surprised the S3 doesn't kick in.

Jakanden
05-11-2008, 04:14 AM
Bosses in MGS1 = great for their time

I actually still dig the MGS1 bosses as the Psycho Mantis and Liquid Snake fisticuff fights are still some of my favorites in the series.

Bosses in MGS3 = great for ALL time

Hell yes! The entire Volgin/Shagohod run is amazing and one of my favorite things out of any of the games.

Paraphrased from memory, dialog that made me cringe.

There is quite a bit of dialog in this game that makes me cringe and 90% of it seems to come from Raiden or Rose.

What do you guys think of the "No radar until you find node" concept? With the camera system of MGS3: Subsistence, I can see this being a viable direction, but with the crappy MGS2 camera, it just seems more frustrating to me than it has to be.

SilentSnake
05-11-2008, 05:06 AM
So this is the first playthrough where I got the M9 immediately after getting to the Big Shell. I enjoyed the fact that you really felt like you were in a facility. The struts each being individual buildings as well as the way they were connected made it feel like a carnival, each with a different attraction. Sometimes the guards got annoying, but I appreciated the variety.

Adrenaline
05-11-2008, 08:44 AM
I haven't played it in a while, but I still think MGS1 had the best bosses. I remember being challenged without frustrated, while MGS3 had the annoying tendency of making them significantly tougher after you make some progress and adding time limits.

Parish
05-11-2008, 09:20 AM
Hell yes! The entire Volgin/Shagohod run is amazing and one of my favorite things out of any of the games.
A pox on your and all your future generations.

SlimJimm
05-11-2008, 09:34 AM
No one has commented on how retarded those colon and jejunum rooms are?

They are retarded!

estragon
05-11-2008, 09:36 AM
No one has commented on how retarded those colon and jejunum rooms are?

They are retarded!

That whole section is probably my favorite part of the game.

Mr. Sensible
05-11-2008, 11:09 AM
No one has commented on how retarded those colon and jejunum rooms are?

They are retarded!

The Rectum (sorry, I still chuckle a little) seems totally removed from where you should be, which is inside Arsenal Gear. That room has it's own horizon and you can see dozens of Metal Gear Rays lined up at least a quarter-mile away. Plus there's no obvious exits; where's the damn ladder you climbed up?

I mean, WTF?

Also, press Start to bring up the Map screen while you're there. Looks like creation-myth-type art, or just more WTFness.

Jakanden
05-11-2008, 12:08 PM
A pox on your and all your future generations.

I think they were cursed already for something else I did here.

No one has commented on how retarded those colon and jejunum rooms are?

They are retarded!

Why in the hell does he have to be naked? While I am glad we don't have to see him from the front, I don't think a Foxhound agent would have a problem beating the crap out of guys naked. Raiden is too much of a bitch and thinks it is more important to keep himself covered than defending himself. Although, I do like how the Colonel starts referencing the other games when the effects of the virus hit.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 12:30 PM
The Rectum (sorry, I still chuckle a little) seems totally removed from where you should be, which is inside Arsenal Gear. That room has it's own horizon and you can see dozens of Metal Gear Rays lined up at least a quarter-mile away. Plus there's no obvious exits; where's the damn ladder you climbed up?

I mean, WTF?

The preliminary script in The Document of Metal Gear Solid 2 describes that chamber as simply a massive RAY hangar stretching in every direction. Somewhere along the way, they just decided to play to the mindfuck aspect with the VR platform and endless fog.


Why in the hell does he have to be naked?

Listen to the Colonel's explanation of the Skull Suit at the beginning of the Plant chapter: Its main draw is that it serves as a kind of second skin, interfacing directly with the wearer's body. This also means that it happens to be a one-piece deal. They didn't strip Raiden to his waist like Snake in MGS1 because they couldn't.

Also: Butts are funny.

Tomm Guycot
05-11-2008, 12:50 PM
That whole section is probably my favorite part of the game.

This.

They are the most "video gamey" and the VR missions that take place in there are great.

Mr. Sensible
05-11-2008, 01:05 PM
Somewhere along the way, they just decided to play to the mindfuck aspect with the VR platform and endless fog.

The whole of Arsenal seems very VR-ish. Every step you take sparks illumination of some sort and there are these virtual displays everywhere, hovering in space so non-chalantly.

I mean I get that it's high-tech, but for a while I was left wondering if any of it was even real. Maybe that was the point.

Edit: KOOOJIIIMAAAA

Kishi
05-11-2008, 01:33 PM
That's it exactly. In fact, the hexagons lighting up wherever Raiden steps first appeared in the Camera Mode of MGS: VR Missions.

Mr. Sensible
05-11-2008, 01:55 PM
Snaps and dang, I wish I'd played VR Missions. Speaking of which, Substance: Is It Worth Good Money?

Eirikr
05-11-2008, 02:09 PM
Snaps and dang, I wish I'd played VR Missions. Speaking of which, Substance: Is It Worth Good Money?

Substance is totally worth it - just for the Snakeboarding alone. Then you don't have to admit owning Evolution Skateboarding!

But I must say, Raiden is my favorite playable character in a Metal Gear game. Flip > somersault roll.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 02:11 PM
I want more video game heroes who can do torso-axial jumps. "Raiden and Strider Hiryu" is far too short a list for such a cool move.

JCDenton
05-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Making a controversial comparison.

MGS2 > MGS

Also Tanker > Arsenal Gear > Big Shell for my money. As much as I love the mindscrewery of the later game, I've played the Tanker literally hundreds of times. Everything about it from the level design to the atmosphere make it one of the greatest game prologues ever. Best run was 13:00, Euro Extreme, No Radar, Game Over if Discovered.

I think some of the boss fights are better in 2 than in 1. Harrier was more fun than the Hind, Rays were better than Rex and I'll take Twilight Sniping over Wolf any day.

Jakanden
05-11-2008, 03:35 PM
I think some of the boss fights are better in 2 than in 1. Harrier was more fun than the Hind, Rays were better than Rex and I'll take Twilight Sniping over Wolf any day.

The only reason I didn't dig the sniping so much in 2 was because you were protecting Emma. I know that probably doesn't bother most people, but I just cannot stand NPC protection/escort things in games.

However, having Snake as a backup is awesome and hearing his comments (and EEs) using the direction mic is a cool touch.

Adrenaline
05-11-2008, 03:58 PM
What's truly irritating about protecting Emma is that she ends up getting killed anyway IN THAT SCENE. I hate pointless objectives.

Dhroo
05-11-2008, 04:48 PM
Personally, I love sniping missions where you have to protect someone. The N64 Mission Impossible game had a stage like that, and I must've played it a hundred times or something.

Also, tranqing Snake with the PSG1-T and then calling him is fun.

Re: Fatman discussion earlier in the thread: I just try to head him off as he moves around, and hit him with a hand-to-hand(it is the basis of all combat) combo when he gets close. He takes forever getting back up, more than enough time to pop him in the head.

Hmm...I guess it's about time I finished that Tanker-Shell run I started on hard. Get me some dog tags!

liquid
05-11-2008, 08:06 PM
I had all of the dog tags except for the ones in Big Shell on extreme. Now I bought Substance and have to start all over.

Does anybody else actually like the bomb hunt? Assuming you haven't been backtracking like crazy, it should really only be your second run through the Big Shell, and it really forces you to pay attention to patrols in a way that just running from strut to strut didn't.

Guy
05-11-2008, 08:31 PM
What's truly irritating about protecting Emma is that things. I hate pointless objectives.

I kept thinking when I played that she was supposed to mirror the two endings in Metal Gear Solid, so there must be some way to save her. But nope.

Her blatantly incestuous crush on Otacon was pretty creepy anyway.

Kishi
05-11-2008, 08:35 PM
Otacon's "relationship" with his step-mother was creepy. Emma's crush was just sweet.

Guy
05-11-2008, 08:39 PM
Spoilers, man, Jesus.

Anyway, I certainly won't deny Otacon's just as creepy, but the way his sister mutters his name in her sleep if you knock her out/tranq her just sounds really... not sweet.

Torgo
05-11-2008, 09:58 PM
MGS2, the first and (so far still) only Metal Gear game I've played.

I'm not too sure weather or not I'm going to play it for Fun Club. I replayed it... last year I think it was. Just as awesome as it was in '01, but I'm not sure I feel up to tackling it again yet.

Sanagi
05-11-2008, 11:31 PM
I don't know, guys, I'm finding this game pretty disappointing. The story is complete nonsense, and I kind of hate the controls. It's reminding me why I wasn't all that into MGS or the Gamecube remake.

Tomm Guycot
05-11-2008, 11:40 PM
I am a bit scared to play this after MGO and before MGS4.

With the controls.

Gredlen
05-12-2008, 12:28 AM
I am a bit scared to play this after MGO and before MGS4.

With the controls.

Try playing it without the controls!

mopinks
05-12-2008, 12:33 AM
it's Metal Gear, 90% of the game is playing without the controls!

Parish
05-12-2008, 09:43 AM
I am a bit scared to play this after MGO and before MGS4.

With the controls.
Trust me on this: You're better off playing it before MGS4, because if you wait until after you'll be miserable.

ted2000aed
05-12-2008, 09:56 AM
Bosses in MGS3 = great for ALL time

I thought the fury was a little uninspired. The rest of the bosses are really great, but something about The Fury I just found...tedious... That being said I LOVE the fact that there are so many ways to take care of The End or how your fight with The Sorrow changes depending on how you play the game. I hope MGS4 can match or surpass those fights.

Tomm Guycot
05-12-2008, 10:16 AM
Trust me on this: You're better off playing it before MGS4, because if you wait until after you'll be miserable.

Yeah but I put nearly 50 hours into MGO, so...

reibeatall
05-12-2008, 10:26 AM
Yeah but I put nearly 50 hours into MGO, so...

Holy crap, did you seriously play that much?

Jakanden
05-12-2008, 10:36 AM
Yeah but I put nearly 50 hours into MGO, so...

Damn dude, you are going to own us so hard when the full version hits.

Swordian
05-12-2008, 11:25 AM
You'd have to be the Green Arrow to reliably fire tranquilizer rounds at his head while he's jumping and dancing around

I did that fight so many times, that at the start of each one he would finish his introductory dance with my laser sight in the middle of his bullet hole.

MCBanjoMike
05-12-2008, 11:39 AM
MGS2 was my introduction to the series and is, at least for the time being, my favorite. The main reason for this is the gameplay sections in between boss fights - I just love running around the Big Shell and tranquilizing/messing with the guards. I suppose that it gets pretty easy once you know what you're doing, but you can bump the challenge up by going for all the dog tags. I've played this game probably 6 times or so and I tried doing a run on Hard (er, I think it was Hard, probably not Extreme), but I got too frustrated at the "Protect Emma" section to complete it. Now that I finally have Substance, I'll have to play it again, though I'll probably just go on Normal for now.

I think it's funny that everyone is so obsessed with the boss fights and storyline of these games. To me, those are both distractions from the real meat, which is just sneaking around and offing (or knocking out) the guards. I suppose that from this point of view I should adore MGS3, but the removal of the soliton radar makes things so much harder that I never really reached my comfort zone in that game. I'll have to replay it at some point, too, because I have a feeling that it will probably improve with age.

Alixsar
05-12-2008, 12:09 PM
(er, I think it was Hard, probably not Extreme)

You'd know if it was Extreme. Extreme is pretty difficult across the board. You have to fight 25 Metal Gears. And the sword fight with Doctor Octopus is actually difficult on Extreme. A friend of mine and I did a joint playthrough of Extreme, but I've only been able to beat Hard on my own.

Also, everyone is right Tomm. Get MGS2 out of the way now before it's unbearable. Whereas right now it'll just be slightly dated. And incredibly insane. But that's part of the fun.

PhoenixUltima
05-12-2008, 12:12 PM
I absolutely hate Raiden, and it's mostly because of one exchange. Early on, if you kill a guard and then call Rose, he gets all super whiny and angsty about it, which pisses me off for 3 reasons.

1. Whining and angst, never good things to hear coming from the (supposed to be) badass secret spy you're controlling.
2. Dude, you're a highly trained secret agent on a mission to save the president. It should be assumed you're not going to negotiate for his release by giving the terrorists warm milk and cookies and singing kumbaya.
3. You were a freaking child soldier! God knows how many people you killed when you were 8 freaking years old, but now that you're an adult suddenly you have a problem with killing? This isn't even a problem with Raiden so much as it's a problem with plot inconsistency, but goddamn if it doesn't irritate the shit out of me.

Of course, his complete inability to say anything useful or insightful didn't endear him to me, either. Whenever he wasn't playing the Rick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRick) he was mostly just a childish dipshit.

Kishi
05-12-2008, 12:38 PM
The worst part of the higher difficulty levels is the electrocution sequence. I don't know what kind of superhuman testers they used to fine-tune that thing, but there's no way I'd ever have gotten through that on Extreme without a turbo controller.


3. You were a freaking child soldier! God knows how many people you killed when you were 8 freaking years old, but now that you're an adult suddenly you have a problem with killing? This isn't even a problem with Raiden so much as it's a problem with plot inconsistency, but goddamn if it doesn't irritate the shit out of me.

It's not a plot inconsistency, really. Raiden had been fervently trying to block that part of his past out of his mind for years, and continued to do so until close to the end of the game. And it's not like having been a child soldier who was brainwashed and kept drugged at all times would make him feel comfortable with murder as an adult, anyway.

Adrenaline
05-12-2008, 01:19 PM
I suppose that from this point of view I should adore MGS3, but the removal of the soliton radar makes things so much harder that I never really reached my comfort zone in that game. I'll have to replay it at some point, too, because I have a feeling that it will probably improve with age.

Dude, CQC makes interacting with guards so much more rewarding that it had been before. I used to always try to sneak around them, but it's so fun to mess with them now. I didn't discover this until after playing through once, though.

MCBanjoMike
05-12-2008, 01:36 PM
Dude, CQC makes interacting with guards so much more rewarding that it had been before. I used to always try to sneak around them, but it's so fun to mess with them now. I didn't discover this until after playing through once, though.

Snake never does what I want him to when I try to use CQC :(

I'm sure it will go better on my second playthrough, which will probably increase my appreciation for MGS3. In the meantime, though, MGS2 is instant happiness. Chopped up by 45 minute cutscenes.

Patrick
05-12-2008, 01:40 PM
I dunno if I can take a break from P3 right now to play this. I think I'll probably stop a week before MGS4 comes out and fly through MGS2 then.

Alixsar
05-12-2008, 02:09 PM
The worst part of the higher difficulty levels is the electrocution sequence. I don't know what kind of superhuman testers they used to fine-tune that thing, but there's no way I'd ever have gotten through that on Extreme without a turbo controller.

That was the only part of the game where I died on my Hard playthrough. I'm not trying to say that the game wasn't difficult, but more that that one sequence was so mind-numbingly impossible that I gave up ever trying doing it on Extreme. Luckily, when my friend and I jointly beat it on Extreme, he was able to do that part (somehow). And I got to the fight the 25 Rays. I think I got the better end of that deal.

JCDenton
05-12-2008, 02:31 PM
I absolutely hate Raiden, and it's mostly because of one exchange. Early on, if you kill a guard and then call Rose, he gets all super whiny and angsty about it, which pisses me off for 3 reasons.

1. Whining and angst, never good things to hear coming from the (supposed to be) badass secret spy you're controlling.
2. Dude, you're a highly trained secret agent on a mission to save the president. It should be assumed you're not going to negotiate for his release by giving the terrorists warm milk and cookies and singing kumbaya.
3. You were a freaking child soldier! God knows how many people you killed when you were 8 freaking years old, but now that you're an adult suddenly you have a problem with killing? This isn't even a problem with Raiden so much as it's a problem with plot inconsistency, but goddamn if it doesn't irritate the shit out of me.

Of course, his complete inability to say anything useful or insightful didn't endear him to me, either. Whenever he wasn't playing the Rick (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRick) he was mostly just a childish dipshit.

I think you're missing the point. He isn't supposed to be legendary badass Solid Snake. He's you, the whiny gamer (no offense, not calling you whiny), trained in VR who aspires to be a super spy.

Crested Penguin
05-12-2008, 02:36 PM
I think you're missing the point. He isn't supposed to be legendary badass Solid Snake. He's you, the whiny gamer (no offense, not calling you whiny), trained in VR who aspires to be a super spy.

Raiden would totally whine about having to play as Raiden.

Jakanden
05-12-2008, 03:00 PM
Raiden would totally whine about having to play as Raiden.

Woah, that is meta.

I think you're missing the point. He isn't supposed to be legendary badass Solid Snake. He's you, the whiny gamer (no offense, not calling you whiny), trained in VR who aspires to be a super spy.

I don't really agree with this explanation although I am unable to really explain why. It has something to do with the fact that the goal of the Shadow Moses simulation was to create a perfect soldier, not a whiner gamer. Apparently, that worked according to the MGS4 trailers.

Parish
05-12-2008, 03:06 PM
Actually, the point was that with the proper technology, training and tweaking, even a whiny gamer could be turned into an ersatz Solid Snake. Of course the results are tainted since they used a hardened lifelong killer for the project.

Jakanden
05-12-2008, 03:14 PM
That makes sense. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as anytime I talk about the story of MGS2, I get it wrong.

PhoenixUltima
05-12-2008, 04:20 PM
It's not a plot inconsistency, really. Raiden had been fervently trying to block that part of his past out of his mind for years, and continued to do so until close to the end of the game. And it's not like having been a child soldier who was brainwashed and kept drugged at all times would make him feel comfortable with murder as an adult, anyway.

Fair point. Still, I'd assume that he's at least used to killing people, even if he may not exactly be cool with it. Plus it kind of just ruins the mood when the secret agent who just shot someone (an armed someone in league with a terrorist organization, mind you) in the back of the head goes "wah wah i killed someone, oh im so horrible wah wah". Granted, if he'd gone in the other direction and said "I killed someone! Alright! And his lifeless body fell over the railing and scared the living shit out of another guard! Bonus points!" he'd be a huge prick (like me). I guess maybe I just expected more cold, rational professionalism from the man entrusted with the task of rescuing the president from an armed group of professional thugs (or becoming the next Solid Snake or testing Arsenal Gear or whatever the fuck the true purpose of the whole thing really was).

Also, I hate the stupid dialogue exchanges he has with Rose. The others aren't so bad since a lot of them are optional (and a number of the ones that aren't involve Solid Snake, who is awesome and therefore cuts down on the annoyance factor somewhat), but unless you're doing a saveless run you can't avoid talking to Rose. Granted, you can skip past that shit with Triangle, but it's still irksome, especially if you're allergic to skipping dialogue and cutscenes the way I am (and even then I still skipped that shit when I went to go get all the dogtags).

(Oh, and in case anyone is curious, I got the spoiler text invisible by using "color=#F0F0FA" for my own words, and "color=#E0E0EA" for the quoted text. You're welcome.)

SilentSnake
05-12-2008, 05:52 PM
Fair point. Still, I'd assume that he's at least used to killing people, even if he may not exactly be cool with it. Plus it kind of just ruins the mood when the secret agent who just shot someone (an armed someone in league with a terrorist organization, mind you) in the back of the head goes "wah wah i killed someone, oh im so horrible wah wah". Granted, if he'd gone in the other direction and said "I killed someone! Alright! And his lifeless body fell over the railing and scared the living shit out of another guard! Bonus points!" he'd be a huge prick (like me). I guess maybe I just expected more cold, rational professionalism from the man entrusted with the task of rescuing the president from an armed group of professional thugs (or becoming the next Solid Snake or testing Arsenal Gear or whatever the fuck the true purpose of the whole thing really was).

Also, I hate the stupid dialogue exchanges he has with Rose. The others aren't so bad since a lot of them are optional (and a number of the ones that aren't involve Solid Snake, who is awesome and therefore cuts down on the annoyance factor somewhat), but unless you're doing a saveless run you can't avoid talking to Rose. Granted, you can skip past that shit with Triangle, but it's still irksome, especially if you're allergic to skipping dialogue and cutscenes the way I am (and even then I still skipped that shit when I went to go get all the dogtags).

(Oh, and in case anyone is curious, I got the spoiler text invisible by using "color=#F0F0FA" for my own words, and "color=#E0E0EA" for the quoted text. You're welcome.)

You've got to remember, though, that all of his adult military training was in the VR simulator. The Big Shell was his first actual mission for fake Foxhound. Also, the point of the S3 was to take someone completely green and turn him into the ultimate soldier by not giving them a choice. Trial by fire, if you will. The Patriots' intent was to control all the circumstances so that Raiden could evolve into a badass. (much like a game designer turns someone just beginning a game into an expert by the end through level design)

Kishi
05-12-2008, 07:35 PM
To clear up a somewhat-common misconception, the purpose of S3 wasn't to create another Solid Snake. That was a diversion at worst and a lucky little bonus at best. Like the Patriots say themselves at the end of the game, they're not particularly interested in the effectiveness of a singular soldier, no matter how effective. The real purpose of the exercise was to test the effectiveness of the Arsenal Gear AI's censorship abilities on humans under even the most extreme of conditions. The Shadow Moses Incident was used as the template just because its conditions were so very extreme, and the fact that "Colonel" was able to keep Raiden focused and on-message throughout the entire ordeal (up until the virus got to it), even in light of unplanned-for factors like Snake's reappearance, meant that it was a success.

SilentSnake
05-12-2008, 07:51 PM
In truth, the two aren't that different, just one is more specific of a result than the other. The ultimate point was control. Of course, Ocelot had something else in mind, that being military might similar to what Liquid wanted in MGS. The Patriots' plan, however, was much less militant and much more manipulative. The indicating outcome was the same in both cases, though.

Ruik
05-14-2008, 09:44 PM
I've beaten the first MGS, but never touched another one. The Essentials Collection was just too good to pass up, so I picked it up and started playing MGS2 today. I have discovered a very important fact; I suck so bad at MGS. I'd like to say that I don't remember being this bad at the first one, but now that I've been refreshed and can remember accurately... Yeah, I wasn't too good at the first either.

Still having fun though.

Rosencrantz
05-14-2008, 10:27 PM
Totally accurate stuff

Don't forget, people who are confused about S3 - it does NOT stand for Solid Snake Simulation, but for Selection for Societal Sanity. Yup, just like the title of these MGS threads. For what it's worth, I absolutely looooove the final dialogue between the AI programs and Raiden right before the Solidus fight.

PhoenixUltima
05-15-2008, 04:56 PM
For what it's worth, I am completely insane.

Eirikr
05-15-2008, 08:16 PM
No way, that dialogue is great. On replays I gladly skip most of the other exchanges in the game, but I just love how the AIs talk about the filth on the internet decaying society and destroying the context of history. It's slightly plausible in an insane way and a fitting end to a crazy series of events.

Ruik
05-15-2008, 08:54 PM
Using "Pliskin" for Snake's cover is the best thing ever.

SilentSnake
05-15-2008, 11:25 PM
I made it up to the battle with Vamp. I always remember thinking that it was such an unexpected point in the game for a boss battle like that, and I love it. I also just learned about keeping in shadow so that my shadow doesn't show up and get pinned. Beat him with the M9, too. The game just crossed a line, though, as an optional Codec conversation between Otacon and EE about science and war that was just way too out of the blue to be plausible given the situation. Pretentious and preachy, too. Oh and I should point out that while most don't like the music in this game, I personally have a strong like of one particular song. "Yell (Dead Cell)" is my absolute favorite boss music ever. It gets my adrenaline pumping during a boss. In fact, probably 50% of the reason I wanted to play the game again was to play through the bosses with that music playing. I kinda wish they didn't mute it slightly during the Harrier battle, though...

MCBanjoMike
05-16-2008, 09:16 AM
Fired this up last night and played the first half of the Tanker chapter, finishing the fight with Olga. It's a damn sight prettier than MGS was! Actually, now that my eyes are getting accustomed to the visuals on the XBox 360, I'm starting to see the limitations in MGS2 for the first time. At first I was a bit disappointed (after all, this game blew me away graphically when I first played it), but then I realized that it has been almost seven years since it was first released and it's only starting to look dated now. And even then, only really in the cutscenes. They were so far ahead of the technology curve with this game that it's not even funny.

It's a fun time! I've been challenging myself to collect the dog tags again (since I can't carry over my old save file), but I'd forgotten how tedious it gets knocking out the guards so you can corner one of them and then waking them all up again to get the rest of the tags. Since I don't really need them, I'm thinking of just grabbing the ones I can get pre-tranquilization, otherwise things might get too repetitive. I'm also trying to avoid killing anyone, although I don't know if I'll hold to that policy for boss fights.

SilentSnake
05-16-2008, 10:34 AM
Fired this up last night and played the first half of the Tanker chapter, finishing the fight with Olga. It's a damn sight prettier than MGS was! Actually, now that my eyes are getting accustomed to the visuals on the XBox 360, I'm starting to see the limitations in MGS2 for the first time. At first I was a bit disappointed (after all, this game blew me away graphically when I first played it), but then I realized that it has been almost seven years since it was first released and it's only starting to look dated now. And even then, only really in the cutscenes. They were so far ahead of the technology curve with this game that it's not even funny.

It's a fun time! I've been challenging myself to collect the dog tags again (since I can't carry over my old save file), but I'd forgotten how tedious it gets knocking out the guards so you can corner one of them and then waking them all up again to get the rest of the tags. Since I don't really need them, I'm thinking of just grabbing the ones I can get pre-tranquilization, otherwise things might get too repetitive. I'm also trying to avoid killing anyone, although I don't know if I'll hold to that policy for boss fights.

I've been using the no-kill rules for the bosses on this playthrough, and I've got to say that it doesn't take me any longer to do it this way than it did with lethal weapons. I was actually suprised how easy it was to do. I do wish that they would have given a reward for doing that like MGS3 did, though...

Mr. Sensible
05-16-2008, 11:07 AM
I've been using the no-kill rules for the bosses on this playthrough, and I've got to say that it doesn't take me any longer to do it this way than it did with lethal weapons. I was actually suprised how easy it was to do. I do wish that they would have given a reward for doing that like MGS3 did, though...

I want to try a no-kill game on Hard, but that asshat Vamp was difficult enough on my last Hard playthrough and I threw everything but the kitchen sink at him. Can my M9 triumph against such a beast?

Odin
05-16-2008, 03:06 PM
I'm starting to see the limitations in MGS2 for the first time. ...this game blew me away graphically when I first played it, but then I realized that it has been almost seven years since it was first released and it's only starting to look dated now. And even then, only really in the cutscenes. They were so far ahead of the technology curve with this game that it's not even funny.


Exactly this. I'm noticing seams, polygon counts, and graphical strain where I didn't before. But that is a very minor complaint when I'm looking at a game that is seven years old. If only all games looked (and played!) this good.

I'm in the hold of the Tanker, but my weekend's booked so I probably won't get a chance to play more before Monday or Tuesday. :( I'm going for all the dog tags I feel safe getting, no kills, Normal mode.

Red Hedgehog
05-16-2008, 03:22 PM
I want to try a no-kill game on Hard, but that asshat Vamp was difficult enough on my last Hard playthrough and I threw everything but the kitchen sink at him. Can my M9 triumph against such a beast?

I seem to remember using mostly hand-to-hand to defeat Vamp in my no-kill game.

SilentSnake
05-16-2008, 05:05 PM
I want to try a no-kill game on Hard, but that asshat Vamp was difficult enough on my last Hard playthrough and I threw everything but the kitchen sink at him. Can my M9 triumph against such a beast?

Actually its pretty easy once you know when to shoot and when not to. Swimming = shoot. Throwing daggers = do not shoot. Just getting out of the water onto the ground = aim for the head. If you're good, you can get a couple of shots off in between dagger throws.

Parish
05-17-2008, 03:28 PM
Don't forget, this game looked so good in its day that they threw in the ability to zoom and pan during cutscenes just to prove it was running in real-time polygons. And it was a fair bit of bragging... most of the cutscenes in Xenosaga Episode 1 looked worse than MGS2 but were nevertheless pre-rendered videos made using the in-game models.

Anyway, thanks everyone for playing. I and the la-li-lu-le-lo thank you.

Next stop: Metal Gear Solid 4.

Parish
05-17-2008, 03:31 PM
Yes, that's right. The Selection for Societal Sanity series is complete. Yes sir, I think they're appropriately hyped. Yes, sir. I'm "closing down" the forum series now. No, no one knows about the final thread yet. No, that's right. Thank you, sir.

Goodbye... Mr. Kojima.

(shrill violin crescendo)