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Parish
06-11-2008, 10:20 PM
All story conversation goes here. You should pretty much consider everything a spoiler, so hide it.

Guy
06-12-2008, 02:25 AM
First thing's first: (POTENTIALLY MAJOR SPOILERS DON'T READ UNLESS YOU'VE BEATEN THE GAME PLEASE THANKS DON'T YELL AT ME)

Was the current incarnation of the Patriots really founded by Major Zero, Para-Medic, SIGINT (who was really Donald Anderson from MGS), EVA, Big Boss, and Ocelot? Did EVA, Big Boss, and Ocelot branch off to combat them? Which made Big Boss and Ocelot technically good guys all along? Was Ocelot really faking possession by Liquid all along? Did Meryl really marry Johnny Sasaki at the end?

Because, if so, WTF. Please tell me I just stumbled upon some of those fake spoilers created to mess with people.

Parish
06-12-2008, 07:44 AM
Them's real, dude. Except I don't know if I'd necessarily call them good guys -- their methods were pretty questionable.

Add to Queue's VsRobot
06-12-2008, 08:14 AM
I was kind of sleepy when I was playing so I think I missed something. Are The Patriots really some kind of computer A.I.? . My mind was wandering but that's what it seems like Drebin was saying. (Act II spoilers, finish Act II before revealing).

Parish
06-12-2008, 08:19 AM
Yeah, that part of MGS2 was actually true. You'll learn more about the whole story there in Act III.

Knight
06-12-2008, 10:43 AM
MORE BEATING THE GAME SPOILERS STUFF
Them's real, dude. Except I don't know if I'd necessarily call them good guys -- their methods were pretty questionable.
Wow, those are just ridiculous, and yea, I don't think Ocelot counts as a good guy, torture and rape aren't what I'd consider good guy qualities.

How about these spoilers though:
Is Big Boss still really alive? If he is, how did he survive? Who was the young Snake in the trailers?

mike
06-12-2008, 11:40 AM
How about these spoilers though:
spoilers

Considerably fewer Act III Spoilers: (Big Boss' mangled remains have been preserved on life support since Zanzibar Land, but he's braindead (or his consciousness is suppressed by his nanomachines) when Snake encounters him.)

EDIT: Cutting the bits I'm probably wrong about until I finish the last act.

kungfukid
06-12-2008, 12:37 PM
Wait a minute, the La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo are elements of the periodic chart?

Parish
06-12-2008, 01:13 PM
Uh, mike, you should definitely finish the game first. There are certain things you need to know.

La-li-lu-le-lo is the result of nanomachine-induced thought control. This is never stated explicitly, but it's implied from the first meeting with Drebin. People under the Patriots' control are incapable of calling the Patriots by name. Their minds are conditioned/manipulated to self-edit and replace "patriot" with "la-li-lu-le-lo."

mike
06-12-2008, 02:40 PM
Uh, mike, you should definitely finish the game first. There are certain things you need to know.

La-li-lu-le-lo is

All right, I'll just shut up until I have a more complete picture. Despite the volume of non-stop shocking revelations thus far, it'd be ridiculous of me to assume the finale won't turn things completely upside down.

Re: the La-li-lu-le-lo thing -- does anyone know if this explanation was hinted at in the series prior to MGS4? I seem to recall the webcomic Last Days of Foxhound giving the same explanation as a running gag, and I think it was too early for the author to have known plot details of MGS4, given his stated intention of finishing the series before 4's release completely invalidated his backstory.

Parish
06-12-2008, 02:54 PM
It's actually possible to have put it together with a little lateral thinking after MGS2. It actually ties right in with that game's theme of digital information management and widespread thought manipulation.

Dizzy
06-12-2008, 03:47 PM
Comments:

Does anyone think this final chapter totally retconned the entire saga? Or wrapped up every loose end in such a way that it made it even more ridiculous?

Seriously. Major Tom -- Patriot grand schemer? I was kind of hoping MGS3 would be a kind of stand-alone game that was mere back story, not ammunition to tie up loose ends.

Ah well, Metal Gear is known for its outlandish storyline, so I guess this means that the writers can get away with anything.

It makes the games almost campy, especially with the military fetish. Nanomachines are the equivalent of midi-chlorians. And old people... living way past their due date. All the shocking conclusions of this series are hokey. I guess I wanted some semblance of plausibility, but I think with MGS2 onwards (timeline-wise) this series went off the rails.

Oh well, I can still love the game's story... what does anyone else like about it so far?

mike
06-12-2008, 07:37 PM
Okay, now I'm finished. I ranked "Lobster", which is probably the nicest thing any Metal Gear title has ever called me. I felt like the last big showdown was severely undercut by not making much sense until after you listen to the following hour and a half of exposition, which was a little disappointing compared to the climactic finales of MGS1 and 3. A lot of the plot resolution felt like arbitrary retconning, but given the task of reconciling the events of the last few games, I can't fault the game for pulling it all together as admirably as it does. I've got a few more thoughts and questions about the ending, but I'll need a little while to absorb everything and recover from cutscene fatigue.

Also, Raiden must know one hell of a surgeon.

nunix
06-12-2008, 08:22 PM
So apparently it's not a particularly long game?

mike
06-12-2008, 08:41 PM
So apparently it's not a particularly long game?

I clocked in at 17 hours; I'm finished already only because I started several days early due to a broken street date. I imagine you could probably clear it in 6-8 hours on a second playthrough, skipping cinematics.

shawn struck
06-12-2008, 09:06 PM
Uh, mike, you should definitely finish the game first. There are certain things you need to know.

La-li-lu-le-lo is spoiler

I have no idea when, if ever, I'll get to play MGS4, so I peeked in here. That part doesn't surprise me because there were hints that this was the case way back with Raiden, via a few throw-a-way lines about information control, being able to filter out perceptions, etc. Plus, I could have sworn that Kojima himself said that the La-li-lu-le-lo was a result of spoiler thing in an interview he gave a few years ago.

Maggie
06-12-2008, 09:19 PM
I'm on Act 3 now and I only have one thing to say: Holy shit, Sigint! No way. This is really exceeding my expectations.

Parish
06-12-2008, 09:22 PM
Oh, endgame spoilers, I do so love you.
I felt like the last big showdown was something something.
I feel like it was the worst part of the game. The Boss was an amazing fight! This was a crappy mini-game that sucked 10 years ago and hasn't gotten better with age. And I felt like the Snake & Dad chat really missed an opportunity to bring the whole thing truly full-circle by having the two of them face off, Naked Snake vs. The Boss style, in the cemetery. But I guess the whole point of the epilogue is that it was time for Snake to stop fighting and simply move on.
Also, Raiden must be one helluva guy.
His body is all prosthetics covered with a flesh-tone exterior. You can see the seams. Alternate answer: Musta regrown his limbs with nanomachines! Ayuh!

mike
06-12-2008, 10:50 PM
More endgame spoilers.


The Boss was an amazing fight, &c.


Yeah, that the Ocelot fight turned out to be the final bit of interactive gameplay seems to reject everything that was awesome about MGS3's last battles. The fight with the Boss required you to demonstrate a mastery of the CQC techniques that she'd used to handily defeat you throughout the game, in order to satisfy a personal conflict central to the game's themes. (Or if you were terrible at CQC, nothing stopped you from struggling to improvise with all the other tools and tricks that the rest of the game taught you to use.) MGS4 gives us a third-rate Tekken minigame, divorced from all of the refined mechanics of the game up to that point, in a showdown that only seems to come about because the series' mythology demands it. I pulled through it just barely on my first attempt, though; I'd definitely be a lot more annoyed if it took me several unluckier tries to take him down.

I, too, was a little disappointed that they momentarily teased at a confrontation with Big Boss before reverting back to long speech mode. I know you're probably right that it wouldn't fit the message of the ending, and might have felt like too much of a rehash of Boss, but the game spent so much time revisiting old ground in the run-up to the ending that I was expecting it to come full circle back to the big face-off from the end of MG1 and 2, giving an appropriate send-off for a character so frequently identified as the perfect soldier.

Anticlimax aside, I still came away with a very positive impression of the game as a whole. The other boss fights don't quite live up to Snake Eater's standards, but they still provided a lot of inventive twists on their respective formulas without feeling rehashed. Nearly every returning character had an opportunity to show up, reveal their shocking secrets, and heroically sacrifice themselves for your cause at least once. Exceptionally, my MGS1 nostalgia has been thoroughly exorcised. The huge, dynamic sneaking environments are the real star attraction, though, and I'm already eager to dive back in for a second playthrough without the burden of watching all of the cinematics, trying in futility for a no-kill or no-alert run.


tl,dr: I agree with Parish's opinions, but need a lot of run-on sentences to express this.

Maggie
06-13-2008, 05:28 AM
I just finished the game and I'm half asleep so it'll take me a while to, uh, take it all in, but I liked the ending.

Sure, the whole thing was an anti-climax with the last fight and I had NO IDEA what Liquid's motives were up until the end when it turned out he wasn't really Liquid and.. and... Ah. Ow.

I did LOVE the metal gear fight sequence, though. That was awesome.

kungfukid
06-13-2008, 07:35 AM
Likewise, just finished it and that has to be the single best conclusion to a series, or game, ever. The Metal Gear fight was OK and yes, the Liquid fight was anti-climactic, but the fight with Screaming Mantis takes the cake.

Parish
06-13-2008, 08:40 AM
I'm pretty sure the hot, naughty Rex-on-Ray action is just Kojima practicing for Zone of the Enders 3.

Brickroad
06-13-2008, 08:43 AM
I'm too scared of spoilers to read this thread yet, but I just have to say:

Roy Campbell is a dirty old man.

Kolbe
06-13-2008, 08:50 AM
I'm pretty sure the SEX is just Kojima practicing for DOUBLESEX.

I hope!

kungfukid
06-13-2008, 09:10 AM
I'm pretty sure the WOOHAH is just Kojima practicing for HOOHAH.

Actually, I thought that's what the Beauties were all about. I mean come on, those suits scream Zone of the Enders.

Zef
06-13-2008, 09:14 AM
Did the B&Bs have awkwardly placed cockpits that flipped up during high-speed movement?

wahoninja
06-13-2008, 09:29 AM
Question, yes or no: is it explained how/why Snake knows CQC?

Parish
06-13-2008, 10:31 AM
Question, yes or no: is it explained how/why Snake knows CQC?
He played MGS3, duh.

alexb
06-13-2008, 03:43 PM
Did the B&Bs have awkwardly placed cockpits that flipped up during high-speed movement?

No, but they had camel toes. Is that even a spoiler?

Dizzy
06-13-2008, 04:19 PM
The creators also like to zero the camera on their asses. So we know they're beautiful.

alexb
06-13-2008, 09:54 PM
Yeah, their squatting, spread asses. Without fail, they give you an extended view of each of their undercarriages after you've smacked them around enough. And then Drebin drones on forever about their stupid back stories, over-explaining the truly stupid symbolism of their names. "The black mantis told her to eat the bodies of men. But there never was any mantis. She was just crazy." That sort of thing.

They also subjected Mei Ling to the same sort of indignities. She gets down on the floor with her ass sticking out at the audience and keeps right on with her briefing about their last chance to save humanity. The fan service was always at the most inappropriate times in this game.

Kojima is so schizophrenic. He swings between virtuoso and undersexed hack fast enough to give you whiplash.

cortbassist89
06-13-2008, 09:58 PM
At least the most gratuitous shots in MGS3 were optional firstperson shots.

alexb
06-13-2008, 10:02 PM
Yeah, and Eva was a willing participant instead of a dying mental patient that you've just beaten senseless. It's honestly creepy on top of pandering.

O..O~
06-13-2008, 10:05 PM
Okay. Just got to the boss battle with raven, after the major plot developments with "big mama". My feelings so far. I don't understand where all this shit with major zero being the leader of the patriots is coming from. It does NOT seem consistent with his character throught mgs3 at all. All the major good guys from mgs3 being the patriots just seems like fan service to me. Seriously, Paramedic and Signet? They never seemed the least bit controlling or fucking insane. Its just not consistent with their portrayals in mgs3. Seriously, did I miss something out with these characters getting more fleshed out in portable ops?

SilentSnake
06-13-2008, 10:29 PM
Trite as it is, it could be true: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." Not that I know for sure, but the simplest explanation is that people change. And remember that Zero didn't intend to be all controling. He had noble intent. It got twisted. This didn't happen overnight either.
But the thing with reusing characters does come up a lot. The only really new one is Drebin...

alexb
06-13-2008, 10:40 PM
Don't worry, he's probably related to Donald Anderson and Scott Dolph.

Eirikr
06-13-2008, 10:43 PM
Man, I am genuinely sad that Raiden just died. Not that the scene was a tearjerker, just that I feel sorry for him. I was one of the few that really liked him, and to see him go is a disappointment. I knew it was inevitable, but still...

Maggie
06-13-2008, 11:17 PM
Trite as it is, it could be true: [COLOR="White"]...

I got the impression that they were falling victim to what the Boss mentions in MGS3, about how your friends today can be your enemies tomorrow and vise versa.

Also, in the last act, during Meryl and Johnny's whole "Will Turner/Elizabeth Swann" nonsense, I had the strongest urge to shout "SHUT UP IN THERE, WILLYA!?"

reibeatall
06-13-2008, 11:42 PM
Well, that was fun and ultimately satisfying.

Time for MGO.
Edit: And I got the title of Eagle. Is that good?

TheSL
06-14-2008, 12:00 AM
Damn it, I'm kinda pissed that I was totally right about Big Boss being too much of a bad-ass to have been defeated by an aerosol spray can and a lighter at the end of Metal Gear 2.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/TheSL/DSC01743.jpg

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/TheSL/DSC01744.jpg

Also got the subrankings:

Frog - Title awarded to soldiers for frequently rolling forward.
Inchworm - Title awarded to sneaky soldiers who constantly crawled on the ground
Hyena - Title awarded to soldiers who worked diligently to procure items on the battlefield.
Pig - Title awarded to ravenous soldiers with a hunger for health items.
Jaguar - Title awarded to aggressive soldiers who were frequently spotted by the enemy, but rarely died and killed enemies.

reibeatall
06-14-2008, 12:20 AM
Question about the origin of the Patriots:

Ok, so when Naked first goes to the jungle and he's to meet up with Adam, the question he asks is "Who are the Patriots" and the answer is "The La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo". Did they have a meaning before the events of MGS3?

Eirikr
06-14-2008, 01:54 AM
Oh man, guess where I just cried:

Man, I am genuinely sad that I was wrong!

I beat the game and I'm so happy that Raiden didn't get fucked over. In fact, his ending was very Guile-like.

And is it just me, or does Rose have one of the best rendered faces in the game?

O..O~
06-14-2008, 09:42 AM
Yes, Rose is very pretty, as all are all the b&b members. Though, does anybody else notice that there is pointless boob psychics at work during codec conversation's with her? Soooo classy kojima.

Adrenaline
06-14-2008, 09:47 AM
Kojima is so schizophrenic. He swings between virtuoso and undersexed hack fast enough to give you whiplash.

Welcome to Japanese people

kungfukid
06-14-2008, 01:58 PM
Question about the origin of the Patriots:

Ok, so when Naked first goes to the jungle and he's to meet up with Adam, the question he asks is "Who are the Patriots" and the answer is "The La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo". Did they have a meaning before the events of MGS3?

As far as I can tell: la-li-lu-le-lo means absolutely nothing. I mean, if you do some research you'll find that the letters in the phrase are periodic elements and it's also a phrase that can only be pronounced in one language. That said, it was really just a code word used to identify the American spy, but since EVA wasn't an American, she couldn't pronounce it, instead she wins Snake's trust by killing enemy soldiers that were about to ambush him, bringing him a gun he goes apeshit over, and not to mention sporting a few... "enhancements".

Dizzy
06-14-2008, 02:24 PM
Yes, Rose is very pretty, as all are all the b&b members. Though, does anybody else notice that there is pointless boob psychics at work during codec conversation's with her? Soooo classy kojima.

Let's not get too excited (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moe_(slang)) about these mentally bankrupt characters.

j00ey
06-14-2008, 04:12 PM
I beat the game and I'm so happy that ---blippity bloo---

I too figured it was natural for him to die, given all the characters that did. but I was more relieved that Campbell was faking the marriage.

TheSL
06-14-2008, 04:14 PM
I was more relieved that Campbell was [spoiler]

No to sound too sexist, but that chatty bitch deserved to be dominated by a dirty old man.

Eirikr
06-14-2008, 04:22 PM
I too figured...

The Campbell marriage thing I thought was kinda funny - a great way to rub it in Raiden's wounds for all his haters, but a great reversal in the end. I was literally disturbed at the end of Act 4 when Raiden apparently died, just because I thought Kojima had conceded to the fanboys.

At least Raiden's detractors can take solace in the fact that his kid looks like an MGSfied Dragonball Z character.

Adrenaline
06-14-2008, 11:20 PM
I'm on Act 3 now and I only have one thing to say: Popcorn!

What's funny to me is how Kishi was recently saying how stupid that plot twist would be if true.

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 12:53 AM
I think it's funny that Rose NEVER STOPPED LYING TO RAIDEN until the end of this game.

What a crazy bitch.

Maggie
06-15-2008, 12:59 AM
I still can't get over how this game ends with the worst boss fight in the series, including the two original Metal Gears.

But the Rex/Ray fight was awesome enough for me.

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 01:11 AM
I don't understand the hate, guys.

MGS2 established that none of the resolution from MGS mattered, and this game was Snake going to great lengths to achieve the resolution he "deserved" after MGS. It had to end w/ a Liquid fistfight. It was a GREAT fistfight, and basically took the "cinematic" bent of RE4's knife fight and did the very same thing WITHOUT resorting to QuickTime events.

I really enjoyed it.

Maggie
06-15-2008, 01:29 AM
I don't understand the hate, guys.

stuffs.

I really enjoyed it.

I don't understand the love, honestly, but I'm not sure it's something that can be explained for me. I just don't get it.

MGS3 set the bar extremely high for boss fights and this one was clunky, slow and kind of arbitrary.

What do you mean, about the resolution of MGS meaning nothing and Snake deserving this? Is it because Fox-Die killed Liquid before Snake could, or what?

I mean, it IS neat how you essentially "beat the Liquid" out of Ocelot, but I definitely didn't find it fun. Might as well have been a cutscene.

I'm not sure it really left Snake feeling that good, anyway, since he essentially beat the hell out of an old deluded guy who apparently wanted the same thing all along.

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 01:32 AM
You're overthinking what I said.

MGS ends with Snake leaving fighting behind, and finding a new life.

By MGS2, that's all gone (and we're lead to believe it didn't last long at all, as Meryl hints that she and Snake joined "the unit" together). Because of "the system," Snake was unable to actually have the ending suggested by MGS.

MGS4 is all about him GETTING that ending. The fighting IS over and the enemies ARE defeated and Snake can finally live and find a reason for living.

So thematically MGS4 has to end the same way MGS did... except this time it works.

in other words... Kojima was forced to make more games and this game finally "ends" it.

Which is really what I was looking forward to. MGS2 was a fakeout and MGS3 was backstory... MGS4 is fulfilling the promise we all saw in those first MGS2 trailers. MGS4 is "the sequel" to MGS.

Maggie
06-15-2008, 01:37 AM
Aah, I see what you're saying. I totally misunderstood. THAT I agree with. I definitely left the game feeling that way, as well.

And after all the hell Snake went through, I almost felt like I'd run through the whole damn, wearying struggle with him and I could finally relax.

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 01:52 AM
Those who read my 1up blog remember that I had a big theory two years ago that the Patriots kept running all these protagonists through the exact same "pattern," where each event had the same variables.

Obviously Kojima remaking the game over and over, but it seemed like they were going to give it signifance.

I really like that in the end, it was significant, but merely in the "it's a program so it only has one routine to run" way. That was neat.

reibeatall
06-15-2008, 07:49 AM
Those who read my 1up blog remember that I had a big theory two years ago that the Patriots kept running all these protagonists through the exact same "pattern," where each event had the same variables.


Was that really two years ago? Damn, time flies.

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 09:01 AM
And we all know that the Rex v. Ray fight is the coolest thing ever, but I also found it to be a powerful reiteration of a theme. Ray was designed to be the anti-Rex (as stated in MGS2)... so this was another case of the inferior "twin" beating the superior one. There is no reason Rex should have been able to defeat Ray - not only was it an outdated model, but it was also busted up to hell. So this was a nice reminder of Kojima's theme (and he didn't even beat us over the head with it!)

I do wish they'd spent some time pointing out that Otacon's mecha finally saved the world instead of threatened it. You think that woulda been a big deal for the guy.

reibeatall
06-15-2008, 09:08 AM
Question about SOP.

When did that rise to prominence? I know that Genome soldiers were in MGS1, and you can't really believe anything that happened in MGS2, so when did the nanomachines take over?

SilentSnake
06-15-2008, 09:15 AM
I could be wrong, but if FOXDIE was the beginning of nanomachines, then doesn't that suggest that they weren't around in anyone else in MGS?

reibeatall
06-15-2008, 09:20 AM
I think FOXDIE was the start of what eventually became SOP, but I always thought that the soldiers on Shadow Moses had nanomachines injected into them to make them stronger.

SilentSnake
06-15-2008, 09:25 AM
Naomi said that FOXDIE was the first-generation nanomachines and that all the rest came from that design. Also, I figured that the Genome Army had their genes tweaked out (in the design of Big Boss) rather than nanomachines.

Niku
06-15-2008, 10:49 AM
So was I the only one who felt really REALLY good for Raiden when you fight Vamp and Snake can't quite seal the deal .. so Raiden shows up to finish the job? Okay so yeah in the end Naomi showed up and blah blah blah, but it was really nice to see Raiden finally get his chance to be the one to finish up a boss fight.

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 10:51 AM
Question about SOP.

When did that rise to prominence? I know that Genome soldiers were in MGS1, and you can't really believe anything that happened in MGS2, so when did the nanomachines take over?

I recommend you play MGS2 again. It's pretty easy to tell what is "real" and what is "fake"

alexb
06-15-2008, 11:39 AM
Why are we hiding all the spoilers? You shouldn't even be in this thread if you haven't finished the game. It's silly to have to highlight all of this stuff to read it. Is there even anyone in here who hasn't beaten the game?

Can we talk about how awful and inappropriate the Mr. & Mrs. Smith/Will and Elizabeth scene was?

onimaruxlr
06-15-2008, 11:42 AM
You guys are nutso. The Liquid VS Old smackdown was totally tubular. Granted, it was a bit of a design non-sequitir as it controls completely different from every other part of the game, but it also played a lot better than both the Liquid VS Solid fight at the end of MGS and the sword bits at the end of MGS2. I'd argue it was even better than the fight against the Boss, but I can't really, since I never did figure CQC out...

Maybe my complete inablity to master any sort of CQC other than "smash their head into the ground" speaks to a lack of sophistication in my playstyle that is suited for this encounter...

alexb
06-15-2008, 11:47 AM
Honestly, it was kind of disappointing that it never was Liquid. It was kind of a waste of Ocelot, to be honest. I did like that in the final battle, as the music changed to reflect the different games in the series, the lifebars did, too.

onimaruxlr
06-15-2008, 12:04 PM
Even in death he was a double/triple/quadruple/quintuple agent.

So, overall I think the story in this one is...kinda worthless, basically. I don't like it. MGS1 was a silly but enjoyable little pulpy anime-esque spy story, 2 was some interesting stuff about information control stuff that even extended beyond the game's plot (with questionable results), and 3 had some interesting bits that all related to crazy people doing crazy things in a crazy era, and stuff about loyalty and like...whatever. But this one? Total fanwank. The only bit that was new and interesting was the war economy, which--for all the times it's repeated utterances--played second fiddle to politically conspiring artificial intelligences built by Englishmen and romance stories featuring an incontinent guy and an undead guy.

The only cinemas that I remotely enjoyed were action heavy ones. I mean they all looked nice (REALLY nice), but I just didn't care about what was happening 90% of the time. And 5% of the ones I enjoyed were just Drebin and Little Grey!! Maybe it just hasn't really sunk in yet, having just beaten it last night...but it seemed to be more "wrapping things up for the sake of wrapping them up" than doing anything actually cool or interesting. If this was an uglier game, I probably would be a lot less tolerant of it's busted ass narrative, but thankfully I was able to make it through by shutting my brain off and just marveling at how amazing everything looked.

or to put it another way, they coulda called it Metal Gear Solid: Crisis Conclusion

Add to Queue's VsRobot
06-15-2008, 12:08 PM
The two things I was hoping for the returns of both the "real" Ocelot, and the return of Big Boss both happened, but only the first felt satisfying. Big Boss showed up to lay some exposition and die -- of course, he stopped Snake from committing suicide while he was at it, but I wanted more from him. Ocelot's return, however, was very meaningful. The sacrifice he made -- suppressing his real personality to fool the Patriots and get them to once again send Snake to do their dirty work -- is unimaginable. . He's my favorite character of the series, and if they do a non-Snake sequel, they could do worse for a leading man. especially if they set the game before, during, and after Snake Eater.

alexb
06-15-2008, 12:24 PM
By the way, Rat Patrol 01 doesn't spell PATR10T. It spells PATR10T AL. So who's Al?

Tomm Guycot
06-15-2008, 12:51 PM
When you have something this story driven and have millions of fans who've had a decade to speculate... I think it's a major blessing that the complaints are "I don't like the way he handled ______" and not "Why did he ignore _____!?"

The amount of closure in teh game is phenomenal.

Parish
06-15-2008, 12:55 PM
By the way, Rat Patrol 01 doesn't spell PATR10T. It spells PATR10T AL. So who's Al?
Actually, it spells PATR1OT RAL. But if you look at how the group name is listed during Meryl's Codec sequences you lose a few of the extraneous letters.

And yeah, the Meryl/Johnny standoff was almost as much a preposterous atrocity as the final battle, which I stand firm in proclaiming the worst playable sequence in the entire series. That's right: It's worse than the entirety of Snake's Revenge.

alexb
06-15-2008, 12:59 PM
It's ridiculous, any way you slice it, though. Why would a network of super computers need to insert winking self references into their pawns' names?

Parish, is there any official word on the absence of the traditional MGS theme? I think I know what happened, but I want to be sure.

onimaruxlr
06-15-2008, 01:12 PM
...almost as much a preposterous atrocity as the final battle, which I BE HATIN.

Awww come on...why? Control-wise it was surprisingly in-depth and enjoyable (more so than punch punch run around, anyway)if not at all explained, and story-wise there are like a million other things far more silly

Actually I think I just realized why people hate that sequence so much.

It plays a lot like Godhand.

Which also explains why I love it!

SpoonyGundam
06-15-2008, 01:50 PM
I had a lot of trouble with the final boss fight until I accidently hit Select and found out how to block and, more importantly, do strong punches. Them's broken for sure. Spammed them my way to victory and didn't feel bad about it at all.

It plays a lot like Godhand.

Kind of, but Godhand is a lot more... refined. And it totally pissed me off everytime I got a third of my health knocked off when Ocelot kept nailing me with his super-powered Yes Ma'am Kablam. It was super-easy once I realized I could get him in the corner and put him in strong punch stun-lock, though.

But if you look at how the group name is listed during Meryl's Codec sequences you lose a few of the extraneous letters.

Also if you have subtitles enabled for the standard cutscenes. But now I'm curious. Are the Codec sequences you're talking about standard story things, or can you actually call her yourself? I only had two people in my call list at the end of the game (Otacon and Rose, who I forgot about halfway through Act II), though others had called me before. Can you actually get those guys added to your list? I never thought to call them back, and there didn't seem to be much of a reason to do so.

alexb
06-15-2008, 01:53 PM
I know that 140.85, Campbell's traditional frequency, doesn't work.

O..O~
06-15-2008, 02:24 PM
The stuff with the patriots being computers cretated by major zero reminds me greatly of the end of the daggermouth episode of family guy. At the end its revealed daggermouth is just a robot and the sailor controlling him pays peter off saying "because the longer you stay here the more questions people are going to ask about how a sailor with no engineering background made a intelligent talking fish robot" Seriously, how the hell did zero create the insanely intricate computer a.i's when it didnt seem like he was a scientist at all. Is every character with the slightest hint of a scientific background a doctor of fucking everything in this game?

alexb
06-15-2008, 03:31 PM
He didn't literally create them himself. He just headed the organization that did so and they were made to effect his will.

SilentSnake
06-15-2008, 06:56 PM
I was a little suprised that Psycho Mantis was actually responsible for controling the B&Bs. It came out of nowhere and was slightly cool, slightly confusing.

reibeatall
06-15-2008, 07:17 PM
By the way, La-Le-Lu-Li-Lo

It was actually Rat PT 01, making it PatR10T.

Also known as Tom V. Riddle.

Maggie
06-15-2008, 07:18 PM
Speaking of the Mk. 2 saving the world, why did Snake need to go down that hallway at all? If I'm not mistaken, Otacon had the power to open, close and even lock all the doors, and the little robots completely ignored him at the end, so.. what was the point of Snake going through that?

Add to Queue's VsRobot
06-15-2008, 07:55 PM
It came out of nowhere and was slightly cool, slightly confusing.

My understanding was that it wasn't literally Psycho Mantis, it was an imprint of his personality... foreshadowing revelations to come!

alexb
06-15-2008, 09:03 PM
That's how I took it as well.

SilentSnake
06-15-2008, 09:19 PM
Yeah that makes much more sense once everything is revealed. However, it still is a bit of a random blast from the blast. And the old tricks were kinda...played out and obvious.

SilentSnake
06-15-2008, 11:20 PM
Anyone else notice that the four lower AI's initials are the initials of the presidents on Mount Rushmore?

GW - George Washington
AL - Abraham Lincoln
TR - Theodore Roosevelt
TJ - Thomas Jefferson

SpoonyGundam
06-15-2008, 11:44 PM
Someone mentions the Rushmore thing in one of the cutscenes.

Rosencrantz
06-15-2008, 11:53 PM
Yes, it was specifically mentioned.

On a similar note, I have a question about MGS2: whatever happened to the AI named JFK? It's the one that speaks to Raiden before the final battle with Solidus (I love that speech, by the way). I don't remember it being mentioned at all in MGS4, and it doesn't fit in with the Mount Rushmore naming scheme.

Tomm Guycot
06-16-2008, 12:05 AM
Yes, it was specifically mentioned.

On a similar note, I have a question about MGS2: the good old days.

That's from the MGS2 original script off the Document. It's heavily disclaimered that the script was changed when the game was made (as happens) and so the "original script" does not reflect the "final game."

Obviously when Kojima needed more AI's the JFK wouldn't fit, so he instead went with the Rushmore thing.

"JFK" never appears in MGS2, and therefor, never existed.

Adrenaline
06-16-2008, 01:46 AM
And I'm done. I'm not sure what it is, but I feel like things were left unanswered, but I can't think of anything specific. I guess I was just expecting a little more crazy.

The end of Raiden's story was way more satisfying than I expected it would be. The scene where Johnny and Meryl admit their feelings was the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen and would have been less out of place in Devil May Cry or something. Also, Meryl's bodybuilder physique in the wedding dress was horrifying.

I liked the final battle, if not from a gameplay perspective then just a story one. The transition in music, HUD and combat style as he reverted back into Ocelot was awesome. The whole revelation with him was not what I was expecting after MGS3 made it perfectly plausible he was channeling his spirit through the arm.

Also I agree, why the hell did Snake go through the microwave room when the Mk. III did all the work? Oh well. I'm sure more things will be thought of as the game sinks in.

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 07:09 AM
Snake went through the microwave room because he was a cantankerous old man looking for a place to die, and everyone else was sick to death of arguing with him about it.

I can't help but feel that if all Ocelot, EVA and Big Boss wanted all along was to destroy the Patriots and their control, they certainly went about it in the most ass-backwards roundabout way possible. Like, didn't Emma do most of the work back in MGS2 with her worm? Seems like rather than, oh, I dunno, have Emma murdered by Vamp they could take her and use her the way they used Naomi, to destroy JD through GW instead of stealing GW and tricking Snake into jumping through hoops all over the planet.

I don't remember The Boss saying what that one guy quoted in the epilogue, but it sounds like the kind of thing she'd say. It's kind of nice in a full-circle way that pretty much every single thing in the series starts and ends with The Boss.

eta: So, who is going to be the first person to go back now and replay MGS1-3 with all these new plot revelations fresh in their head to see what fits and what doesn't? Hint: not me!

TheSL
06-16-2008, 07:35 AM
That would have been the perfect ending right there. Not that they way they did it wasn't pretty perfect in its own way. Hokey and kind of retcon-y, okay, but perfect enough I guess.

Did you really expect the super-badass soldier that we met in MGS3 to die from getting burnt to death with an aerosol can and a lighter at the end of Metal Gear 2? I still don't know how he escaped without any burn scarring, though. Is that why Solidus' corpse was almost totally skinless in that bag? Also, why did Big Mama react that way when Solidus' corpse was thrown into the fire? Is it because she thinks of herself as his mother?

It really bugged me that you go through all of this and MGS2 thinking that Liquid has posessed Ocelot and then Big Boss just kind of off-handedly says, "Oh yeah, Ocelot was just a method actor fucking around with your head."

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 07:48 AM
It really bugged me that you go through all of this and MGS2 thinking you'd get to play Snake for the whole game, but then they drop this Raiden bullshit on you and seriously what the hell man.

That... was pretty strange. I'm still not entirely clear on why Ocelot had to do that. What's wrong with just being Ocelot?

Parish
06-16-2008, 08:04 AM
Guys, the answer is because Kojima made it up as he went along. As for the EVA thing, that's just him valuing a good fake-out over narrative consistency. Let's not make the error of mistaking Metal Gear's story for a great one -- its twists and turns are fun to watch, and it manages to have some lucid themes, but if you look more deeply you're bound to be disappointed.

mike
06-16-2008, 08:07 AM
That... was pretty strange. I'm still not entirely clear on why Ocelot had to do that. What's wrong with just being Ocelot?

Moreover, why would Ocelot think the Patriots could even be expected to fall for a guy claiming to be possessed by his transplanted hand? Has everyone in this series been subjected to so many dubious handwaving explanations about the magic of nanotechnology that nothing sounds implausible anymore?

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 08:14 AM
Well the fans were certainly fooled with certain rationales. Remember when everyone thought that the reason he was posessed was because he was the son of The Sorrow and inherited his abilities to channel the dead? I mean really after all the Patriots bore witness to in this whole arc, you don't think that they would be able to deduce something like that?

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 08:17 AM
Guys, the answer is because Kojima made it up as he went along.

Well yeah, but that doesn't mean it's not fun to pick apart his plot holes. Isn't that what this thread is for?

Calorie Mate
06-16-2008, 08:55 AM
I'm split on this one. There was some stuff I liked, some stuff I didn't, but overall I was left feeling like this was mostly just unabashed fan service. Parts of it were really good, but other parts felt like little more than fan fiction. Maybe that's just how ending something like this is, though; I kind of felt the same way about how the Harry Potter series was tied up, too.

It also kind of bothered me about how the story felt totally inaccessable to someone that hasn't been following the series the entire time (as opposed to MGS3, which had a tight, concise story that anyone could enjoy and fans could gleam some extra stuff off of). Not that it affected me personally, as I've obviously been following the series, but it's probably not good for Sony hoping to rope in lots of people if half of your audience is constantly scratching their heads and complaining about what's going on.

Still, the gameplay was pretty great throughout, and I had a blast. I totally agree with Tomm about the last fight, too. While not as awesome as The Boss fight was, thematically it was good to go man-to-man with both Liquid and Ocelot and finally earn that ending he wanted in MGS1. Plus, it looked fuckin' sweet.

Lastly, I'm kind of disappointed we didn't actually see Snake die. Yes, he's got less than 6 months to live anyway, and it's great to see him get to live a life without having to fight, but I was expecting to see a corpse, dammit! ...giving Big Boss a proper send-off, especially after growing much closer to him during MGS3, was pretty nice, though.

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 09:00 AM
You're onto something with the last thought in your post, Caloriedude. The very last line of dialogue Mr. Spoily So-and-so had in the game did it for me. It very much kept with MGS3's spirit.

I loved the aftercredits tidbit. I was all, "Yes, that is exactly the proper way to end Metal Gear."

Maggie
06-16-2008, 09:02 AM
My biggest problem with the game is that after finishing it, I didn't feel like I (through the gameplay) had really accomplished anything. At all. Basically you're just a dancing monkey to distract the Patriots, it feels like. None of the things I actually did while playing were of any real significance.

I felt the same way about Halo 3 and while not necessarily for the same plot reasons, definitely for the same reasons that stem from how the plot was presented: anything important that happens will happen in a cutscene or off-camera (we never see or hear from any of the AI in this one, which is a shame since they were very interesting and creepy in MGS2) just like we never really see the Gravemind in Halo 3, and both come to more or less the same end.

TheSL
06-16-2008, 09:14 AM
Anyone else notice that random things are the initials of the presidents on Mount Rushmore?

I thought it was funny that the big Patriot ship at the end had a Mount Rushmore-style carving of the founding members too. I think they only show it once, when the ship is surfacing for the first time.

Dizzy
06-16-2008, 09:22 AM
Guys, the answer is because Kojima made it up as he went along.

Indeed!

I liked the Beauty and the Beast unit conceptually, but they were handled in the weakest way possible in the game's story. Perhaps they were doomed to since they seemed so gimmicky. I didn't like how closely they identified with their moniker, and how their animal symbolism was so tied to their "tragic" tale... it was like they were Power Ranger villians. However, so was every MGS boss (and possibly the MG titles as well -- The Machine Gun Kid?).

I liked Parish comments that the BB unit and the Metal Gear battles was just Kojima going all Zone of Enders on us. I'll think it like that for now. I'm wondering what makes me still so partial to the first MGS story. Probably because there was some plausibility, and the villains and the plot weren't too outrageous. Actually, it was probably because I was naive at the time and it was my first exposure to Kojima's style of storytelling.

I notice similarities between the whole MGS saga and The Matrix Trilogy. Both of them reveal how the inner workings of their world are controlled by yet another vast conspiracy and both of them have some child prodigy that is the something of a key to a new world (Sunny = Sati). I can bank on this similarity because Kojima obviously showed his love for The Matrix in MGS2 (especially Snake's "Most of you know is only what your brain is telling you" sermon at the end; I'm paraphrasing. Durdy durdy durdy. I think both kind of failed because they had to meet the standards of their previous accomplishments, the expectations of their fans, and in turn, create their own reductive universe.

Adrenaline
06-16-2008, 09:24 AM
You guys know Ocelot wasn't just acting, he underwent therapy and treatments to mentally turn him into Liquid? It's not like he wasn't the villain he appeared to be.

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 09:30 AM
You guys know delicious candy.

Right, but I'm still hung up on the why.

Like, the in-world storyline reason why, not the "it's just made up don't think too hard about it" reason, even though I know the second reason is the real reason.

Time to pick at some plot holes!

If Big Boss was reconstructed using "pieces of Liquid and Solidus" as he claims, why didn't anyone jack a spare eye? Didn't Liquid and Solidus have three good eyes between them?

And: if Zero was the one who gave the green-light for Les Enfants Terribles, why use Big Boss's cells instead of exhuming The Boss's body and using hers? After all, it was The Boss's ideals Zero was trying to match, not Big Boss's (whose ideals were just a twisted version of The Boss's to begin with, from Zero's point of view).

Why wasn't the technology used to give Vamp his super healing abilities ever mass-produced? Even if Vamp was just experimental back in MGS2, that was five years ago; by now every PMC soldier in the world should have Wolverine healing ability.

Calorie Mate
06-16-2008, 09:31 AM
My biggest problem with the game is that after finishing it, I didn't feel like I (through the gameplay) had really accomplished anything. At all. Basically you're just a dancing monkey to distract the Patriots, it feels like. None of the things I actually did while playing were of any real significance.

I never thought about that, but it's kind of true. I mean, even when you beat Ray with Rex, Liquid just jumps out and shrugs his shoulders, and then goes along on his merry way anyway. But at least you're the reason Vamp was able to be destroyed! That's something, right?


I thought it was funny that the big 'stache is a fake. I think they only show it once, when the [COLOR="White"]barber is trying to shave him.

Oh good, so I didn't hallucinate that part. (I was kind of tired by that point and thought maybe I'd dreamed it...because...seriously?)

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 09:57 AM
Sorry, but the game is still fresh on my mind so I'll probably be coming back here to make 20 or 30 more long-ass posts over the course of the week.

Thinking on it some more, who the heck is Big Boss anyway? Like, who were his parents? Why were his genes so coveted? MGS3 makes it pretty clear that he is more the result of seasoned training and tutelage under The Boss than anything... which I guess explains why Zero's plan to clone him was flawed right from the beginning, and why Solid/Liquid/Solidus all turned out so differently (both from Big Boss, and from each other).

Also, I may be misremembering, but isn't Raiden Solidus's biological son? Or just adopted son? Either way, he's the closest thing to a true "son of Big Boss" there is, which is kind of ironic given the general fandom's opinion of Raiden.

Speaking of which, will his appearance in MGS4 change that opinion at all? I think I liked constantly-dumbfounded pussy living-in-Snake's-shadow Raiden better than armless emo living-in-Grey-Fox's-shadow Raiden, but I do admit that both his fights with Vamp were pretty cool.

Parish
06-16-2008, 10:00 AM
My biggest problem with the game is that after finishing it, I didn't feel like I (through the gameplay) had really accomplished anything. At all.
This is probably the single most persistent failing in Metal Gear -- I feel like Kojima's so in love with his cutscenes that nothing is ever resolved through the actual game mechanics but rather dealt with in a cinematic. He just can't seem to grasp that player empowerment is the essence of gaming. The endgame sequence of just about every Metal Gear title feels like your big brother has snatched away the controller, saying, "No, I get to play this part."

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 10:01 AM
Well, Solidus doesn't have the ability to reproduce, so it would have to be the other.

Dizzy
06-16-2008, 10:02 AM
Speaking of which, will his appearance in MGS4 change that opinion at all? I think I liked constantly-dumbfounded pussy living-in-Snake's-shadow Raiden better than......but I do admit that....

I don't understand most of it myself. Okay, his voice doesn't a rough gruff you guys find so attractive, and a beard and all the indicators of manliness that make the fans sizzle. But he does just as much stylish killing as Snake.

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 10:07 AM
Well, Solidus loves applesauce, so it would have to be the other.

Got it. Thanks.

I don't understand most of it myself. Okay, his voice doesn't a rough gruff you guys find so attractive, and a beard and all the indicators of manliness that make the fans sizzle. But he does just as much stylish killing as Snake.

Well, the #1 complaint against Raiden has always been "he's not Snake", so maybe turning him into Grey Fox is just the logical extension of that.

I did find myself wishing I could play Raiden towards the end of Act 4. Vamp was his villain after all, he should have been the one to put an end to him.

TheSL
06-16-2008, 10:10 AM
This is probably the single most persistent failing in Metal Gear -- I feel like Kojima's so in love with his cutscenes that nothing is ever resolved through the actual game mechanics but rather dealt with in a cinematic. He just can't seem to grasp that player empowerment is the essence of gaming. The endgame sequence of just about every Metal Gear title feels like your big brother has snatched away the controller, saying, "No, I get to play this part."

I felt more like nothing Snake ever does really has any impact at all. We know that all of Snake's prior missions were really beneficial to the Patriots, regardless of his intentions, and in the end Big Boss manipulated him again just like he did in the original Metal Gear. About the only impact Snake really had on the overall outcome was being a carrier for FOXDIE.

Calorie Mate
06-16-2008, 10:17 AM
I felt more like nothing Snake ever does really has any impact at all. We know that all of Snake's prior missions were really beneficial to the Patriots, regardless of his intentions, and in the end some guy manipulated him again just like he did in some place. About the only impact Snake really had on the overall outcome was being a carrier for FOXDIE.

All Snake's ever been good at it killing. Said so himself. I guess it's fitting, then.

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 10:19 AM
So here's a question about Vamp. Is it ever explained what his motivation was? Or the motivation of Naomi feeling him up like a hooker?

TheSL
06-16-2008, 10:21 AM
So here's a question about Vamp. Is it ever explained what his motivation was?

I thought he was just continuing the mission of Solidus and the Dead Cell members. The fact that he was still wearing all of their dog tags supports this stance.

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 10:23 AM
Well, a good way to resolve this would be to remove Snake from the series entirely. Go through each game and look at what would have happened if Snake hadn't intervened.

In MGS4, they wouldn't have been able to get Sunny's virus into GW in time, Liquid would have blown up JD, and all those fancy society-stabalizing systems we like would have been destroyed along with the Patriots AI. Also, "Liquid", Vamp and the B&Bs would still be alive, and we already know from experience (thanks to Zero et al) that absolute power corrupts absolutely...

I can't remember if the whole "nuclear annihilation" thing in MGS1 and MGS2 were fake-outs in the end or not, but Meryl and Otacon would both surely be dead, and didn't he save Raiden's life in MGS2 at one point?

Snake is just a pawn in the grand scheme of things, but he's not totally impotent. It's put best by Big Boss himself: if Snake had been around instead of he, he probably would not have made the same mistakes.

Calorie Mate
06-16-2008, 10:33 AM
That reminds me, about the ending: my absolute favorite part was when Big Boss told Snake he didn't think of him as a son, but he respected him as a soldier...and a man. It seems like both Solid Snake and Big Boss spend most of their time in the series telling people "names mean nothing on the battlefield," "I'm not a hero, just an old killer," etc. etc. that you get the sense that just baout no one else "gets" what being a soldier is all about...so respecting him as a soldier is a huge compliment. Respecting him as a man is an even bigger one, and really adds to that conclusion.

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 10:40 AM
I was disappointed that when you finally see Zero, he can do nothing but lose control of his bowels.

Calorie Mate
06-16-2008, 10:50 AM
I was disappointed that when you finally see math, it doesn't add up. .

That part bothered me, was there really any point to killing Zero then? I mean, he couldn't even move or speak, and was like 90 years old, minimum. I understand Big Boss and he had been at each others' throats, but even B.B. himself said all he felt was longing and pity, or something.

alexb
06-16-2008, 10:55 AM
There was something about Zero's biometric data, wasn't there?

Tomm Guycot
06-16-2008, 11:23 AM
My biggest problem with the game is that after finishing it, I didn't feel like I (through the gameplay) had really accomplished anything. At all. Basically you're just a dancing monkey to distract the Patriots, it feels like. None of the things I actually did while playing were of any real significance.

That is the point. You were playing a game. This is kind of a running theme throughout the game. It's why when Raiden decides to "live his own life" in MGS2 he throws away the dogtags with your name on them.

As for MGS and MGS2 standing up to this scrutiny after MGS4, they stand up (played them over the last two weeks). There are even hints in MGS that Big Boss is still alive.

TheSL
06-16-2008, 11:26 AM
There are even hints in MGS that Big Boss is still alive.

Anything in particular?

Brickroad
06-16-2008, 11:32 AM
That is the point. You were playing a game. This is kind of a running theme throughout the game. It's why when Raiden decides to "live his own life" in MGS2 he throws away the dogtags with your name on them.

When I played it, I used the name "GRAPEFRUIT" for no clearly-defined reason.

As for MGS and MGS2 standing up to this scrutiny after MGS4, they stand up (played them over the last two weeks). There are even hints in MGS that Big Boss is still alive.

I just don't buy that MGS4 was the culmination of Kojima's grand Lucas-esque vision. That might be what he's trying to sell, but there are too many seams showing. I think he had a general idea of what the Patriots were, exactly, when MGS2 was written, and it certainly feels like MGS3 was written with MGS4 in mind, but largely it was just made up as it went along.

It's fun to try and rationalize everything after the fact, but let's not kid ourselves here.

Tomm Guycot
06-16-2008, 11:36 AM
As for Solidus and Raiden, he says "I killed your biological parents" in MGS2, so there isn't really a mystery that needs solving.

Dizzy
06-16-2008, 11:43 AM
As for MGS and MGS2 standing up to this scrutiny after MGS4, they stand up (played them over the last two weeks). There are even hints in MGS that Big Boss is still alive.

Yeah, his remains as mentioned in the tapes in MGS.

I thought we all knew Big Boss was still alive when the MGS4 ad campaign came with that blue image illustrating all the characters that would show up in the game. Big Boss was one of them. Was that picture even legit? I'm still confused about Raiden holding a baby.

Also, does anyone think Hugh Laurie would be perfect as Big Boss, appearance-wise? The two are almost twins.

Add to Queue's VsRobot
06-16-2008, 11:56 AM
I liked the final boss battle. . It was fun, it was full of fan service (the changing health bars and character names, the copious flashbacks) and it was an important story moment -- Snake beats a delusional old man so hard he remembers who he really is.

In fact, I've seen a lot of people convinced that Ocelot was faking when he was pretending to be Liquid, but I don't think that's the case. Ocelot really thought he was Liquid -- he voluntarily gave up his personality and let himself be hypnotized / reprogrammed. "Liquid" was trying a little too hard to kill Snake, like trying to ram a damn boat into him. The real Ocelot personality was able to gleam through sometimes, but I think it's the climatic battle at the end that completely severes the "Liquid" personality.

What I don't understand is why EVA though that Solidus's body was Big Bosses. Wouldn't she know it was Solidus? If she did, why did she follow the corpse onto the boat? Did she know she was infected with FOX DIE and so she sacrificed herself to keep the Solidus / Big Boss ruse a secret from any Patriot observers?

TheSL
06-16-2008, 11:59 AM
I'm still confused about Raiden holding a baby.

That's Sunny.

Add to Queue's VsRobot
06-16-2008, 12:47 PM
So what were the spoilers that Kotaku published in a headline? Now that I've finished the game, I am curious to know what would have been ruined for me if I was the type of guy who reads Kotaku.

cortbassist89
06-16-2008, 12:51 PM
So what were the spoilers that Kotaku published in a headline? Now that I've finished the game, I am curious to know what would have been ruined for me if I was the type of guy who reads Kotaku.
Just Big Boss being alive, if I recall correctly

Tomm Guycot
06-16-2008, 01:14 PM
Also, does anyone think Donald Sutherland would be perfect as Big Boss, appearance-wise? The two are almost twins.

fix'd

mike
06-16-2008, 01:35 PM
Also, does anyone think Hugh Laurie would be perfect as Big Boss, appearance-wise? The two are almost twins.

I'm not sure I see it myself, but I played that sequence twice among different groups of friends, and both times, somebody in the room referred to him as House, so you're probably onto something there.

kungfukid
06-16-2008, 02:18 PM
Donald Sutherland as Ocelot maybe, but not Big Boss. Personally, Big Boss should just be modeled after Sean Connery as was intended.

Dizzy
06-16-2008, 02:26 PM
I was making a comparison, not suggesting an ideal cast for a movie that will (hopefully) not happen.

Figure Four
06-16-2008, 07:00 PM
Whelp, I beat the game this afternoon and to be honest I'm a bit disappointed. The first two acts are some of the best gameplay sequences I've ever played. Why the fuck doesn't anything in the last three acts play like that? By the time you really get the hang of moving through these huge open environments and influencing various sides in the battle all those skills are useless. There were some interesting action sequences in the later half of the game (Rex vs. Ray was completely awesome and I quite liked the Vamp fight) but nothing reached the level of those first two acts.

As for the story...someone really needs to lock Kojima in a room and make him play Valve games until he gets it hammered into his head that you don't have to take control away from the player to tell an interesting and complex narrative.

Also, I really hate Naomi. She's probably the most inconsistent and unlikable character in the entire series. Why was she feeling up Vamp and telling him to kill Snake five minutes before tearfully begging Snake to kill him? After Sunny and Naomi designed the worm to destroy GW why didn't Naomi just input the worm herself? I was genuinely glad when she finally died (too bad she returned for some beyond the grave pontificating...).

Dizzy
06-16-2008, 07:31 PM
Also, I really hate Naomi. She's probably the most inconsistent and unlikable character in the entire series. Why was she ---------? After --------? I was genuinely glad when------


I think I read somewhere that Naomi was Hideo's ideal woman. Probably explains why she figured so much into the events of MGS4.

"Well to be honest, I [Shinkawa] think characters like Rose and Naomi are Mr. Kojima's ideal women...but they are not my ideal women," he says laughing. "You know, Mr. Kojima likes those intelligent scientist types."

Blargh (http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/features/video/btg_mgs2/p02_01.html)

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 07:45 PM
Naomi sounds strange without her accent.

Eusis
06-16-2008, 07:49 PM
I was honestly glad they got rid of Mei Ling's since it really didn't make sense for her to have that accent and she sounds more convincing without, but Naomi definitely doesn't sound right without her accent. It's like she was replaced with a whole other character.

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 07:54 PM
Of course it was a fake to begin with. She isn't really Naomi Hunter, after all(MGS1 spoiler). It's just...jarring to hear.

Eusis
06-16-2008, 07:58 PM
As I understand it the accent was removed in Twin Snakes too. Therefore this has less to do with being a fake (wasn't it just a fake name anyway, not necessarily impersonating anyone? I forget) and more with a creative change.

Parish
06-16-2008, 09:08 PM
I asked Ryan Payton about Naomi's missing accent the other day, but he didn't really offer an answer, convincing or otherwise. Something about her heritage being kind of unclear. But yeah? She grew up, presumably, among the remnants of English and French colonies in Africa. Her vaguely South African accent seemed totally appropriate, unrike Mei Ring's.

alexb
06-16-2008, 09:10 PM
Nearly all the women in this series are horrible, duplicitous shrews. The ones that aren't are moe bullshit. The only halfway decent women, and I mean halfway decent as human beings, are Big Mama and The Boss. Kojima must have really loved his grandma.

Parish
06-16-2008, 09:29 PM
Nearly all the women in this series are horrible, duplicitous shrews. The ones that aren't are moe bullshit.
Yeah, but so are the men. No sexism there. Well, uh, does Otacon count as moe?

Plus, what about Olga?

Adrenaline
06-16-2008, 09:31 PM
Or Meryl?

If there's one thing the game taught us though, excursions with Naomi and Eva aside, Kojima is an ass man.

alexb
06-16-2008, 09:34 PM
Meryl's a bitch. She knows he's dying of advanced aging and she calls him an old man.

kungfukid
06-16-2008, 10:54 PM
Meryl's a bitch. She knows he's dying of advanced aging and she calls him an old man.

Well, in her defense, she was under the assumption that her father was a cradle robber. But something I never understood about Meryl was, if the Army gave her psychotherapy to remove her interest in men, how the hell does she fall in love with Snake... or Johnny for that matter?

SilentSnake
06-16-2008, 10:57 PM
I always assumed that they merely killed her sexual attraction to men. That would merely kill lust towards men. Real feelings of love could still manifest, though.

Alixsar
06-17-2008, 12:52 AM
I agree with Figure Four about Naomi. Well, sort of. About the feeling up Vamp part at least. That came out of nowhere. I was able to deal with the rest of the stuff, but...geez.

Also, I thought it was kind of funny that she died of InstaCancer™. Just the idea of injecting yourself with something, and then years of cancer suddenly taking effect all at once seems silly to me.

Edit: More complaints here, too. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=197465&postcount=100)

Rosencrantz
06-17-2008, 01:20 AM
Edit: I just noticed that Brandon made that same point about the Mk. III/the hallway earlier in the thread. Oops! As far as the final boss fight goes, I'm with Parish in that it was absolutely horrible to play. Thematically, I think it worked...but as far as actually playing it goes, it was really atrocious. On the positive side of things, the Snake Eater portion of the fight was great...if only because it reminded me of fighting The Boss.

My favorite part of the final boss fight was how, even before all the "flashback" stuff started happening, you are finally called "Solid Snake" instead of "Old Snake".

Willm
06-17-2008, 07:44 AM
This is probably the single most persistent failing in Metal Gear -- I feel like Kojima's so in love with his cutscenes that nothing is ever resolved through the actual game mechanics but rather dealt with in a cinematic. He just can't seem to grasp that player empowerment is the essence of gaming. The endgame sequence of just about every Metal Gear title feels like your big brother has snatched away the controller, saying, "No, I get to play this part."

I just finished the game for the second time (Yay Foxhound rank! The prospect of a Big Boss rank frightens me though...) and this is definitely my biggest problem with the game. On numerous occasions there is simply no sense of accomplishment, no reason to have even played the previous "game" segment. Two of the absolute worst demonstrations of this occur in Act IV, first with the Vamp fight and later with the Rex vs. Ray battle. After finally learning the secret cure to multiple bullet wounds to the brain (magical pixie nanomachine dust!) and eliminating said cure, I have to watch Raiden finally kill the bastard while I'm stuck fighting Gekkos on a split screen. But even after that, Vamp is the one to give himself the final, fatal injection.

The mecha duel, though, was much more annoying. So, the player manages to destroy the superior Ray with a beat up Rex (a subtle nod to MGS1's theme - the "inferior" managing to defeat the "superior.") What is the player's reward? A wounded Snake stumbling to Liquid Ocelot, who comes out of the battle completely unscathed, running away not unlike an insouciant child. Thanks Kojima! I shouldn't have had to play the scene at all!

It has always seemed to me that Kojima lives to make the player feel like utter crap. This resonates not only in the ultimate futility during gameplay, but in the plot revelations as well. In the history of MGS, has there once been a decision the player makes that was not manipulated from an outside party, whether it be by Liquid, the Patriots, or Big Boss? After playing games like Bioshock, where you eventually break free of the manipulation from an outside party and act on your own motivations, I was hoping Kojima would finally allow Snake to accomplish something that wasn't planned out and to break free of being controled. Sadly, this was not the case. I understand that manipulation is a constant theme in the series (and the theme in MGS2) but I felt MGS4 would have been a great way to break free from that.

I too was really hoping for a final duel between Snake and Big Boss in the graveyard. I thought it would have been a perfect end to the series, rather than Big Boss falling dead of a heart attack after teaching us the joys of multiplication. But then again, I didn't feel like the entire debriefing scene was necessary. After getting over the initial fanboy reaction I had (and who didn't? When the VA of Big Boss came up in the credits and he appeared? I probably squealed without knowing it) I realized he was just there to clear up the entire plot, then die. Thanks, BB! Part of me wishes the game would have ended with Snake commiting suicide. Though I must admit, I thought the final image of Big Boss resting against The Boss' tombstone with Snake kneeling next to him was a nice shot for the series to end.

As for the actual final fight, I thought it was quite clunky, but I didn't hate it with a burning passion (worse than Snake's Revenge? Huh!?) Although, looking back at the fight, I consider it to be more of a true boss fight and more of an interactive cutscene, albeit with unintuitive controls. If they would have cleaned up the controls, I would have actually liked more cutscenes in the game function in that manner (such as the CQC battle with the resistance members before you meet EVA.) The player receives a greater degree of control and empowerment in the game, and Kojima still ends up with something that has more cinematic flair. Everyone wins! Just no Quick Time Events...ugh...


BTW: This is my first post here. Just wanted to say hello to everyone as well. So, uhm, hello!

TheSL
06-17-2008, 07:54 AM
Just no Quick Time Events...ugh...

Isn't that was what most of the CQC in the Snake vs "Liquid" fight turned into?

Willm
06-17-2008, 08:08 AM
Yeah, which was another problem I had with it, especially when you performed a "grab" and had to follow the on-screen prompts. Like I said, I didn't hate it, but I definitely thought it could have been done better (i.e. not making it control like a fighting game from 10 years ago.) If it was done, say, with normal controls and techniques from the game (similar to The Boss fight from MGS3,) it could have still kept the cinematic presentation of the battle (with the camera zooming in during certain attacks, etc.) but it would have felt more consistent with the gameplay. And like I said, I think that would have been a great solution to other parts of the game, instead of simply making the player watch a cutscene.

Maggie
06-17-2008, 08:09 AM
You know, as dissapointed as I was in the final battle, this whole game and its plot could've been MUCH worse. It could've gone all Dark Tower on us and the final boss might have been Kojima as, literally, the God of the Metal Gear World and by destroying him, you end the game or something else incredibly stupid.

Looking back on it, I'm almost amazed it DIDN'T end that way.

TheSL
06-17-2008, 08:15 AM
You know, as dissapointed as I was in the final battle, this whole game and its plot could've been MUCH worse. It could've gone all Dark Tower on us and the final boss might have been Kojima as, literally, the God of the Metal Gear World and by destroying him, you end the game or something else incredibly stupid.

Looking back on it, I'm almost amazed it DIDN'T end that way.

In a way, wasn't he Big Boss all along? I'm kinda being sarcastic, barely.

Willm
06-17-2008, 08:17 AM
Well, he is listed in the credits as "Voice of God" Wow, we really are lucky that he wasn't the final boss.

At least he didn't pop up at the end and say "Did you like it?" in broken English. Although, that would have been rad...

reibeatall
06-17-2008, 08:22 AM
That would be "Didju rike it?"

Matchstick
06-17-2008, 08:26 AM
And: if Zero did some stuff, why do this versus that?

Because Big Boss was seen as the culmination of training and ideals.

Why wasn't the technology used to give Vamp cookies given away for free?

I presume that it was due to not wanting to give out that much power.

My thoughts line up with Parish's and others. Not letting me play the climactic bits was always a bit of an irritant and the final Solid vs. Liquid fight was important story-wise, but implemented poorly.

Also, I found the Rex vs. Ray fight to be a big let-down because it was ridiculously easy, but I did like that Liquid just ran away laughing.

Brickroad
06-17-2008, 09:13 AM
Because of a reason.

...neither of which can be passed on through genes. =)

I presume that it was due to not wanting to give out that much power.

Are these the same cats that spent the 1970s breeding super-soldiers and who developed the entire SOP thing for the exact reason of having more powerful soldiers under their direct control? I think a more reasonable explanation would be they didn't want an army of invincible soldiers who could turn around and fight against them... but that could easily be controlled for by just putting Naomi's magic death nanos or something in them mand shutting it all down remotely using SOP.

Calorie Mate
06-17-2008, 09:19 AM
About the ending: A final duel with Big Boss in the graveyard would have been great, yes...from a gameplay perspective, anyway. Looking at the narrative, though, I think dangling the possibility in front of us (with the way Big Boss raises and lowers his gun) and choosing not to do it was important/fits in with the final message. Furthermore, it's fitting that Snake was essentially a tool his entire life because of Zero, Big Boss, and the other Patriots, and he's again turned into a tool by all that one final time to tie everything up and kill off Big Boss.

Question: after the ending, Snake still has roughly 6 months to live, right? I mean, Naomi said he had 6 months because of the aging, but only 3 until the FOXDIE mutated and killed the world...and even though the new FOXDIE stopped that 3 month time limit, and Snake won't have to kill himself, he's still going to die around 6 months from the end because of the aging, right? I mean, Snake does reiterate to Otacon after the credits that he's dying, so I just wanted to make sure I had this right.

alexb
06-17-2008, 09:29 AM
Yeah, that's how I understood it. It really should have just ended with him shooting himself, though.

Maggie
06-17-2008, 09:30 AM
...neither of which can be passed on through genes. =)





I don't think genes mean what Kojima thinks genes mean.

TheSL
06-17-2008, 09:34 AM
Yeah, that's how I understood it. It really should have just ended with him buying a latte, though.

Yeah, I think it would have had more of an impact stopping there. I groaned out loud when the epilogue started, whereas the previous part almost had me in tears. Tears!

alexb
06-17-2008, 09:39 AM
And if that Russian bastard hadn't shown Kojima that song and tweaked his ego (does he really not realize that pretty much everything about this series started out as a ripoff of Western culture, so why not the music?), Snake would have gone out to a mournful swell of the MGS theme, like at the end of MGS3.

Alixsar
06-17-2008, 09:50 AM
Yeah, I think it would have had more of an impact stopping there. I groaned out loud when the epilogue started, whereas the previous part almost had me in tears. Tears!

My exactly thought when Big Boss showed up was:

"...

WHAT. THE. HELL."

Whereas my final thought when Snake shot himself was:

"Yeah, this seems like the right way to end it." It really should've stopped there. It would've made sense. He's about to die of old age soon anyway, if the new Fox Die doesn't mutate and turn him into a weapon first. So why not have him kill himself? It works the same way, only instead of having him "choose to live" or whatever, he would choose to die.

Calorie Mate
06-17-2008, 09:54 AM
Yeah, that's how I understood it. It really should have just ended with a musical duet between Otacon and Vamp.

I don't know, having Big Boss slumped over on The Boss' grave, Snake kneeling beside him, and then going to live a life without fighting was pretty good, since I've always wanted to see Big Boss get a better send off than a blowtorch to the face (especially after growing to love him in MGS3).

...with that said, though, seeing Snake dead right then and there would probably have been a much better tear-jerker.


EDIT: Alixsar's right. Keeping him as a biological weapon and making him choose to end his own life would have been great...though I guess that would also finally make Snake into a hero, something he's always proclaimed he isn't.

This ending was good in that, despite all the killing he's done over his life, the one person it was too difficult to kill was himself.

wahoninja
06-17-2008, 10:10 AM
I think Bettenhausen saying MGS4 is "a transfiguring work of absolute genius" is selling the game short! (Half kidding.)

The bad bits in the game are baaaad--I don't think Meryl should have been in the game at all...but I can get behind Akiba, if only because his presence is utterly baffling. Otacon crying via Mk. 3 was too fucking ridiculous to not be self-aware. The Mk. 3 was all shaking its "head" in sorrow while Naomi was cancerin' her self up, meaning he was sitting in Mei Ling's ship twiddling the analog sticks accordingly. Hrrmm. The wedding is embarrassing.

I actually dug the BB chicks, as they're ending "speeches" were Kojima at his most Lynchy. (His favorite filmmaker, which I don't quite see.) I also thought the battles with 'em were neat.

As Snake's final outing, this dang game delivered big time. Snake's journey through this game is brutal. I hated the fist fight in MGS (you just three-hit combo Liquid...), but the battle with Ocelot was presented in a much more hell-yeah way (partially because I was kind of expecting that it'd be a full cut scene).

And that last chit-chat with Big Boss--it ran a liiiittle long, but it was good stuff. The last shot of the game is perfect.

Anyway, I want to some spin-offs in a few year. A WWII game starring The Boss and Metal Gear Ninja by Itagaki.

Brickroad
06-17-2008, 10:13 AM
A WWII game starring The Boss

This needs to be MGS5.

THIS NEEDS TO BE MGS5.

This would be so good. They could give The Boss and The Sorrow the backstory they need, of course, but it would also be an opportunity to flesh out the whole Philosophers Legacy thing.

And come on, we all want to hear a Nazi with a bad German accent be all like "What was that sound! ...nothing here. Back to your posit--GURRK!"

alexb
06-17-2008, 10:16 AM
Anyway, I want to some spin-offs in a few year. A WWII game starring The Boss and Metal Gear Ninja by Itagaki.

You have a sick sense of humor, you know that?

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 10:25 AM
"What was that sound! ...nothing here. Back to your posit--GURRK!"

VUT VUZ ZAT SOUND?

Calorie Mate
06-17-2008, 11:20 AM
A WWII game starring The Boss

My knee-jerk reaction is that the saga is done and we should move on to a new series, and that there are too many WWII-themed games as it is, but...I keep thinking about this in the context of the larger skirmishes in MGS4, and in particular storming a battlefield with the Cobra Unit backing you up, and against my better judgement I think I'd like to see it.

reibeatall
06-17-2008, 11:23 AM
How about we just finish with Metal Gear on the whole? Let Kojima Productions start a new game series with the same controls as Metal Gear.

cortbassist89
06-17-2008, 11:25 AM
How about we just finish with Metal Gear on the whole? Let Kojima Productions start a new game series with the same controls as Metal Gear.
You think the fanboys will let Kojima do that?

They refuse. Kojima will be making MGS on his death bed.

Willm
06-17-2008, 11:27 AM
I really don't want MGS5 to have any direct ties to the rest of the Metal Gear series. One of the reasons why I am able to forgive some of the negative points in MGS4's story is because it was meant to tie up the loose ends for the entire MG saga, which I think it did a decent job of doing. As much as I've loved the MGS series over the past 10 years, I'm ready to see an entirely new cast of characters.

And I really don't want another prequel with the Boss. The main reason why I think The Boss is such a great character is because of her "mythical" status. MGS3 made her a great character through omission: you only hear about the missions that made her a legend, and she doesn't even have a great deal of screen time, especially compared to the other major characters. She only appears long enough to remind you why she is such a powerful figure. I feel that a game that focused on her would negate that.

But after playing through Acts I and II, I really want MGS5 to have less focus on a convoluted narritave and a larger focus on gameplay. By starting fresh, MGS5 wouldn't need 60+ minute cutscenes to explain the laberenthine narritave. Oh well...until then, I suppose I'll play through Acts I and II again...and again...and again...

TheSL
06-17-2008, 11:29 AM
How about we just finish with Metal Gear on the whole? Let Kojima Productions start a new game series with the same controls as Metal Gear.

Just think of a Snatcher remake with MGS controls...

Calorie Mate
06-17-2008, 11:35 AM
And I really don't want another prequel with the Boss. The main reason why I think The Boss is such a great character is because of her "mythical" status. MGS3 made her a great character through omission: you only hear about the missions that made her a legend, and she doesn't even have a great deal of screen time, especially compared to the other major characters. She only appears long enough to remind you why she is such a powerful figure. I feel that a game that focused on her would negate that.

I really agree with this. I really do. But as I said above, the idea is awesome in my head anyway.

Rei's comment made me think: will we have another game that controls/"feels" like MGS again? I mean, MGO aside, I don't know if we'll have another game just like this, and the thought is kind of depressing. (Think of it like a 3D Mario game; I'm positive that we'll have another one that handles similarly to the last few, someday...I just wonder, if Kojima really is done wth MGS now, if we'll see another game like this again.)

Also, I really hope we see something totally fresh form Kojima in the next couple years. Not ZOE, not Snatcher (though I'd be stoked for both), but something totally and completely new.

alexb
06-17-2008, 11:39 AM
Just think of a Snatcher remake with MGS controls...

Funny that you mention that. I thought Snake looked a lot like Gillian in Act III.

Also, it's a shame that Konami murdered Boktai in its cradle.

Brickroad
06-17-2008, 11:46 AM
And I really don't want another prequel with the Boss. The main reason why I think The Boss is such a great character is because of her "mythical" status. MGS3 made her a great character through omission: you only hear about the missions that made her a legend, and she doesn't even have a great deal of screen time, especially compared to the other major characters. She only appears long enough to remind you why she is such a powerful figure. I feel that a game that focused on her would negate that.

Disagree strongly, mainly because this is how Big Boss was viewed throughout MGS1/2, and his character was enhanced when MGS3 came along and humanized him a little.

Of course a big part of that is MGS3 handled it right. Naked Snake earned his title by overcoming insurmountable odds in the way Solid Snake (who really was "meant" to win all along etc.) never did.

We've already established when the Partiots came into being and that magic nanomachines are too much of a panacea to all the MGS plot ailments. More games set in a time period before the conspiracy-and-nanomachine era would be right up my alley.

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 11:46 AM
Also, I really hope we see something totally fresh form Kojima in the next couple years. Not ZOE, not Snatcher (though I'd be stoked for both), but something totally and completely new.

Isn't he supposedly cooking something up with Suda?

TheSL
06-17-2008, 11:52 AM
Of course a big part of that is MGS3 handled it right. Naked Snake earned his title by overcoming insurmountable odds in the way Solid Snake (who really was "meant" to win all along etc.) never did.

I'd say Snake earned his legendary status by the end of Metal Gear 2- he defeated both Grey Fox and Big Boss in one-on-one battles, the former armed only with his fists(in a minefield!) and the latter with an aerosol can and a lighter. Oh, and he blew up a couple Metal Gears too.

Calorie Mate
06-17-2008, 11:57 AM
Yeah, by MGS1, Snake was already a seasoned hero (just look at how literally everyone talks to him at the start of the game).

Isn't he supposedly cooking something up with Suda?

Yes, and there's been hints it has something to do with Snatcher...and like I said, I'm interested to see what the all new thing he does is.

wahoninja
06-17-2008, 12:04 PM
This needs to be MGS5.

THIS NEEDS TO BE MGS5.

This would be so good. They could give The Boss and The Sorrow the backstory they need, of course, but it would also be an opportunity to flesh out the whole Philosophers Legacy thing.

And come on, we all want to hear a Nazi with a bad German accent be all like "What was that sound! ...nothing here. Back to your posit--GURRK!"

I want to see this game maybe more than anything, but can they call it "Metal Gear" at that point? I'm not against the idea of a motherfucking bi-pedal tank storming Normandy's shores, but isn't Shagahod the first giant robot? Maybe the term "Metal Gear" could be tossed around to signify something...I dunno.

Also, when Boss talks on walkie talkies or whatever with Cobra Unit, we'd find that they're serious folk who'll crack really silly jokes sometimes, a la Naked's support team in Snake Eater, maybe.

Y'know, fuck it. I think a giant robot jump kicking Hitler would the best.

Willm
06-17-2008, 12:04 PM
Disagree strongly, mainly because this is how Big Boss was viewed throughout MGS1/2, and his character was enhanced when MGS3 came along and humanized him a little.

The main difference to me is that Big Boss was never present during MGS1/2, and by then, everyone has a fantasized view of him. In MGS3, The Boss is actually a tangible character in the plot, and interacts with characters that know her on a personal level. I just think it's unnecessary for a sequel to humanize The Boss, as she was already made into a nuanced character by the end of MGS3. She had an impressive aura about her, but was still human. On the other hand, no one really knew the "personal" side of Big Boss prior to MGS3, which made it more compelling to learn about his past.

But I do agree 100% with a new Metal Gear that doesn't have Magical Pixiedust Nanomachines and convoluted conspiracies involving self-aware AIs. That's one reason why MGS3 is still my favorite in the series.

Parish
06-17-2008, 12:07 PM
My knee-jerk reaction is that the saga is done and we should move on to a new series, and that there are too many WWII-themed games as it is, but...I keep thinking about this in the context of the larger skirmishes in MGS4, and in particular storming a battlefield with the Cobra Unit backing you up, and against my better judgement I think I'd like to see it.
Don't forget the "giving birth to Ocelot" interactive cinema minigame on the beachhead at Normandy. PRESS TRIANGLE TO PUSH, X TO INHALE, O TO EXHALE. PRESS START TO GIVE UP AND ALLOW A CESARIAN.

Brickroad
06-17-2008, 12:09 PM
I'd say Snake earned his legendary status by the end of Metal Gear 2- he defeated both Grey Fox and Big Boss in one-on-one battles, the former armed only with his fists(in a minefield!) and the latter with an aerosol can and a lighter. Oh, and he blew up a couple Metal Gears too.

...and then in Metal Gear 3 we learn he's really badass because he's a clone of Big Boss etc. etc. etc. That doesn't cheapen his character any, he's still bad ass.

Point is, character development (when done right) is almost always a good thing. The Boss was regarded as a legendary hero because she proved herself at Normandy and in various special forces thereafter; it wouldn't be a bad thing to see those stories firsthand.

But I do agree 100% with a new Metal Gear that doesn't have Magical Pixiedust Nanomachines and convoluted conspiracies involving self-aware AIs. That's one reason why MGS3 is still my favorite in the series.

tru dat

Willm
06-17-2008, 12:10 PM
Don't forget the "giving birth to Ocelot" interactive cinema minigame on the beachhead at Normandy. PRESS TRIANGLE TO PUSH, X TO INHALE, O TO EXHALE. PRESS START TO GIVE UP AND ALLOW A CESARIAN.

You're giving Kojima too much credit. A scene as emotionally charged as that one could not be left in the player's hands. We would need 20 minutes of post-birth exposition from The Boss about how the baby has to challenge his fate, but accept his destiny.

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 12:13 PM
Don't forget the "giving birth to Ocelot" interactive cinema minigame on the beachhead at Normandy. PRESS TRIANGLE TO PUSH, X TO INHALE, O TO EXHALE. PRESS START TO GIVE UP AND ALLOW A CESARIAN.

That's the only minigame I can think of where success would cause a time paraodox.

Zef
06-17-2008, 12:14 PM
Don't forget the "giving birth to Ocelot" interactive cinema minigame on the beachhead at Normandy. PRESS TRIANGLE TO PUSH, X TO INHALE, O TO EXHALE. PRESS START TO GIVE UP AND ALLOW A CESARIAN.

And don't even think of using autofire, or he'll know!

onimaruxlr
06-17-2008, 01:06 PM
My dream is an "open world" (not in the GTA sense because you lose a lot of visual fidelity then--sort of more of an adventure game Zelda thing) Snatcher game. MGS' controls and overall gameplay mojo make better sense for a more sort of small-scale, law-enforcement level thing instead of a grandiose WW2 battle scene in my opinion, and it'd be an enjoyable change of setting and aesthetic.

If/When they do make another Metal Gear game--in the sense that you are playing a soldier-cum-superspy running around trying to avoid detection and end up fighting a mecha at some point--I have no idea what I would want, other than a completely new continuity and a different approach to the narrative (Oh please please please God no more noooo)

alexb
06-17-2008, 01:15 PM
Don't forget the "giving birth to Ocelot" interactive cinema minigame on the beachhead at Normandy. PRESS TRIANGLE TO PUSH, X TO INHALE, O TO EXHALE. PRESS START TO GIVE UP AND ALLOW A CESARIAN.

If you're able to birth him normally, Baby Ocelot should smirk and do that hand thing he does at you.

Brickroad
06-17-2008, 01:17 PM
If you're able to birth him normally, Baby Ocelot should smirk and do that hand thing he does at you.

"You're pretty good!"

alexb
06-17-2008, 01:18 PM
Now you're being silly. Babies can't talk. Now, Super Babies...

Brickroad
06-17-2008, 01:19 PM
Now you're being silly. Babies can't talk. Now, Super Babies...

Yeah but sop nanomachines arsenal gear ai.

kungfukid
06-17-2008, 04:00 PM
My dream is an "open world" (not in the GTA sense because you lose a lot of visual fidelity then--sort of more of an adventure game Zelda thing) Snatcher game. MGS' controls and overall gameplay mojo make better sense for a more sort of small-scale, law-enforcement level thing instead of a grandiose WW2 battle scene in my opinion, and it'd be an enjoyable change of setting and aesthetic.

I would just be happy with Snatcher for the DS.

Tomm Guycot
06-17-2008, 04:28 PM
Guys Kojima's not redoing Snatcher. He's said multiple times why he won't remake Snatcher or Policenauts*. Neither title sold well enough for Konami to force him into it. It's just not gonna happen.





* Because he wouldn't simply port it he would go all out and remake it and he wants to spend his time making new games, not old ones.

kungfukid
06-17-2008, 05:30 PM
Guys Kojima's not redoing Snatcher. He's said multiple times why he won't remake Snatcher or Policenauts*. Neither title sold well enough for Konami to force him into it. It's just not gonna happen.





* Because he wouldn't simply port it he would go all out and remake it and he wants to spend his time making new games, not old ones.

Way to kill my dreams. Then I hereby call for a sequel to Snatcher (I don't care if it ended well)! Just no more Metal Gear.

Tomm Guycot
06-17-2008, 05:57 PM
For everyone who thinks the scene at the end with Big Boss was unnecessary, I highly recommend you YouTube the ending of MGS3, starting with The Boss's speech before you fighter her, followed by Eva explaining the Boss's intentions voiced over Big Boss doing things.

The specific word choice is enlightening.


(I spoilered the older game stuff because I feel if one hadn't beaten MGS4, they could guess what happens by my suggestion)

Jakanden
06-17-2008, 06:00 PM
Way to kill my dreams. Then I hereby call for a sequel to Snatcher (I don't care if it ended well)!

Well technically, it was an open ending since Gillian still didn't have his memory and left to destroy the factory.

Regarding the overall story, I am on Act IV of my second play through trying to understand everything. I get nearly all of it but there are a few things I am still unclear on. Hopefully seeing the last two acts will clear up what little I don't get.

Jakanden
06-17-2008, 06:10 PM
For everyone who thinks the scene at the end with....

The specific word choice is enlightening.

While I don't think the epilogue was unnecessary and loved it, I rewatched this anyway and I am not sure which specific choice of words you are referring to. I am probably just stupid, but I don't see how that voice over explains the purpose of it.

I can understand that Big Boss and Snake are going through the same cycle as The Boss and Big Boss, but I don't see how it explains the need for the epilogue.

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 06:21 PM
I think a lot of people were expecting to fight Big Boss at that point and were disappointed in the "sound and fury signifying nothing" so to speak. My personal problem with it was it was way too transparent as a writer's convinience, even for Kojima. There were still some holes in the plot, so he magically appears to fill them in. It seemed like a band-aid to me. Also, that whole zero to one to 100 speech was a bit of a silly metaphor to use given the situation."He's talking about a guy named Zero and his metaphor manipulates zero with math! LOLZ!" However, the end was a bit moving, where he talks about the past and how he feels about the characters. The thing about the MGS3's ending was that you have been guessing what The Boss' true motives were until the end, and then when you finally hear them you finally understand just how deep her ideals run. It is an ultimate sacrifice, as she is sacrificing her life as well as her reputation for her country. And you pull the trigger on her. These are the sorts of things that made the ending so emotionally stirring that this ending lacked IMO.

Maggie
06-17-2008, 06:23 PM
So was I the only person hoping Snake and Big Boss would hug? I would've felt cheated if they HAD fought.

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 06:29 PM
That...was a strange moment knowing their history. Also, I kept getting confused in my mind and thinking I was seeing Snake and Solidus hugging. That would have been waaaaaay stranger.

Jakanden
06-17-2008, 06:34 PM
Ok a couple of questions that have been in my head. I re-read this thread and most of them are mentioned but never answered (if they are, I missed it: Sorry):

- Why did snake have to go through the microwave hall if MK III could open doors and insert the virus? It was extremely emotional and I loved doing it, but why did I?
- Why did Eva get upset about Solidus being thrown in the fire knowing it wasn't Big Boss?
- Why did Ocelot actually have to become Liquid through the conditioning?
- What was Sunny singing at each mission briefing? Two of them were the Periodic chart and the Fibonacci sequence, but what was with the others and why?
- Why was Naomi hanging all over Vamp in Act IV like a sexbot?
- How did the Foxdie mutate to be able to kill Boss and Eva?

Yeah, I might have missed some of these as I finished the game dead ass tired at 5am this morning. I don't even really remember the conversation with Boss as I was literally falling asleep with the controller in hand. I am on Act IV now of my replay and wanted to ask them while they were still in my head.

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 06:37 PM
Did Eva know it was Solidus? I didn't think she did. He was a perfect clone after all.

Jakanden
06-17-2008, 06:39 PM
Did Eva know it was Solidus? I didn't think she did. He was a perfect clone after all.

Didn't Big Boss say that Eva and Ocelot helped rebuild him using Stem Cells? If so, she would have known he was alive right?

kungfukid
06-17-2008, 07:21 PM
Ok a couple of questions that have been in my head. I re-read this thread and most of them are mentioned but never answered (if they are, I missed it: Sorry):

- Why did snake have to go through the microwave hall if MK III could open doors and insert the virus? It was extremely emotional and I loved doing it, but why did I?
- Why did Eva get upset about Solidus being thrown in the fire knowing it wasn't Big Boss?
- Why did Ocelot actually have to become Liquid through the conditioning?
- What was Sunny singing at each mission briefing? Two of them were the Periodic chart and the Fibonacci sequence, but what was with the others and why?
- Why was Naomi hanging all over Vamp in Act IV like a sexbot?
- How did the Foxdie mutate to be able to kill Boss and Eva?

Yeah, I might have missed some of these as I finished the game dead ass tired at 5am this morning. I don't even really remember the conversation with Boss as I was literally falling asleep with the controller in hand. I am on Act IV now of my replay and wanted to ask them while they were still in my head.

1. Snake had to go through the Microwave to protect the Mk III from those damn robots.

2. This one is up in the air, but she freaked out to fool Liquid/Ocelot and the Patriots... again its up in the air.

3. Ocelot hypnotized himself to throw off the Patriots and force them to send Solid Snake to do their dirty work.

4. Sonny was basically using clever ways to say La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo.

5. Naomi... is a whore. But really, she was tricking Vamp to be close to him, remember he does call her his "Queen". Why? Probably because Liquid/Ocelot would be able to see through her lies and she needed someone who would defend her while she did what she had to do.

6. FoxDie mutanted either by the injection Drebin gave Snake in the beginning or by an injection Naomi gave him while running the tests. I can't remember which, but my gut says Drebin did it. He was working with the Patriots after all.

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 07:22 PM
The Foxdie that killed Eva, Ocelot, and Big Boss was injected by Naomi when she was examining him, and also rooted out the mutating Foxdie that would have soon become harmful. It was the Foxdie that she said she hadn't seen before and at first Snake suspected Drebin gave it to him.

Alixsar
06-17-2008, 07:35 PM
Is it just me or were Ed and Johnathan completely unnecessary? They didn't do anything. Unless if they were just being introduced in this game for a more important role in MGS5...? Maybe? I hope not...

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 07:43 PM
Is it just me or were Ed and Johnathan completely unnecessary? They didn't do anything. Unless if they were just being introduced in this game for a more important role in MGS5...? Maybe? I hope not...

Are you kidding? Johnathan introduced the alert exclamation point mohawk. That thing is BAD ASS.

And did anyone else think they died in Act III until the end?

Jakanden
06-17-2008, 07:50 PM
Thanks kungfukid. Some of those make sense, some don't but it is better than having no clue.

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 07:52 PM
The cutscene in the room past the corridor has Snake defending the Mk. III from Dwarfs in front of GW.

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 08:06 PM
Is it just me or were Ed and Johnathan completely unnecessary?I hope not...

Without Johnathan they would have needed to make another character model to be the priest at the wedding.

And did anyone else think they smelled?

Yes.

The cutscene in the room past the corridor has 99 red balloons.

For like, ten seconds. He didn't help much.

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 08:14 PM
I was just thinking about how everyone is comparing this with movies and whatnot, and while the cinematic cutscenes just scream "movies", the story itself doesn't exactly lend itself well to that medium. It suddenly dawned on me what medium is like this today, though: comics. Think about it. The story arcs with heavy backstory integrated into understanding the plot, the serialized way story arcs are handled (each game is an arc), the multiple tiers of villians, the long explanations (all Kojima needs is speech bubbles), the theorizing of motivations by the fans because there is so much to sort out. They're all there. MGS is a video game that looks like a movie but talks like a comic book.

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 08:24 PM
I was thinking of a TV series with everything taking so long, but comics works too.

Tomm Guycot
06-17-2008, 08:35 PM
Guys, Johnathan and Ed are Policenauts characters.

So is Meryl.

Get it now?

Also, it was Ed at the wedding, not Johnathan.

Adrenaline
06-17-2008, 08:39 PM
Whatever.

The only non-MGS Kojima game I've touched is ZOE2.

SilentSnake
06-17-2008, 08:47 PM
Snatcher would be cool, but I want to see what all this Policenauts business is all about.

wahoninja
06-17-2008, 11:36 PM
So was I the only person hoping Snake and Big Boss would hug? I would've felt cheated if they HAD fought.

Big Boss sorta hugged Snake when he CQC'd the gun outta his hand and said something like, "You don't have to fight anymore." Great moment.

As for Snake going down the microwave tunnel, it seems like his function is to battle hand robots, but aren't said robots under Ocelot's control? And at that point isn't Snake doing exactly what Ocelot wants him to do?

j00ey
06-18-2008, 12:35 AM
I'm still not completely clear why Snake visits The Boss' grave in the first place. It looked cool in the old trailers, but now....?

Tomm Guycot
06-18-2008, 12:43 AM
He wasn't visiting Boss. He was visiting the grave next to hers, which is either Gray Fox or Big Boss. Not really sure.

Maggie
06-18-2008, 12:54 AM
Speaking of MGS being like a comic book, that reminds me of one of my favorite geek out moments of the last few years: Seeing Stan Lee dressed as Revolver Ocelot.

And it was strange how Big Boss and Snake reacted to each other, but I guess BB knew what Snake had been through by that point and he had learned from his mistakes in the past with how he tried to do things with Outer Heaven and all. And I guess he's gotten over the sting of being cloned, which was probably why he was so mean to Liquid and to Snake when he had the chance.

Jakanden
06-18-2008, 05:10 AM
Also, it was Ed at brothel, not Johnathan.

Wasn't Johnathan the priest? I mean, he even said something about having them start their first mission.

TheSL
06-18-2008, 06:39 AM
Speaking of MGS being like a comic book, that reminds me of one of my favorite geek out moments of the last few years: Seeing Stan Lee dressed as Revolver Ocelot.

Pics?

As far as Kojima saying that he wouldn't remake Snatcher, though- I'm convinced this is why he's got that Snatcher-related collaboration going with Suda51. It would be more of an advisory role rather than making the game himself; I don't really trust Suda51 to make a good game, though.

Jakanden
06-18-2008, 06:42 AM
As far as Kojima saying that he wouldn't remake Snatcher, though- I'm convinced this is why he's got that Snatcher-related collaboration going with Suda51. It would be more of an advisory role rather than making the game himself; I don't really trust Suda51 to make a good game, though.

While I loved NMH, I am inclined to agree. He has awesome ideas and a great eye for what is cool, but he seems to have problems putting that into a game.

Adrenaline
06-18-2008, 08:52 AM
As for Snake going down the microwave tunnel, it seems like his function is to battle hand robots, but aren't said robots under Ocelot's control? And at that point isn't Snake doing exactly what Ocelot wants him to do?

I don't think he knew that the worm was going to do exactly what he wanted until it happened. Snake was under the impression it would prevent him from doing exactly what it did.

wahoninja
06-18-2008, 09:13 AM
I don't think he knew that the worm was going to do exactly what he wanted until it happened. Snake was under the impression it would prevent him from doing exactly what it did.

When I thought about it, I figured at that point Ocelot was deep into his Liquid persona, Snake beef and all. By the time he had his battle with Snake, the plan to take out Zero's legacy was a success, and it was a personal battle.

Calorie Mate
06-18-2008, 09:49 AM
And it was strange how Big Boss and Snake reacted to each other, but I guess BB knew what Snake had been through by that point and he had learned from his mistakes in the past with how he tried to do things with Outer Heaven and all. And I guess he's gotten over the sting of being cloned, which was probably why he was so mean to Liquid and to Snake when he had the chance.

Yeah, definitely. I liked the CQC hug thing, and Big Boss seeing everything Solid Snake had gone through and not hating him, but instead accepting him, really made the understanding guy from MGS3 shine through, to me.

Also, I think one of the things Tomm was pointing out about this ending and MGS3's ending was that, at the end of MGS3, EVA told Big Boss that The Boss had wanted him to accept her as a woman...and in this ending, Big Boss tells Snake he respects him as a soldier, and as a man. It's great.

Brickroad
06-18-2008, 09:54 AM
I think the biggest problem with MGS4's ending is I will never like Solid Snake as much as I like The Boss and Naked Snake. To me, that's just a damn shame.

Calorie Mate
06-18-2008, 10:12 AM
I don't totally disagree with you, Brick, but Solid Snake relly does hold a special place in my heart, too. Not to mention, though the ending was about Snake and how the fighting is finally over, it was also a farewell to Big Boss. Shouldn't that count for something? Liking him as much as I did in MGS3, I was glad he got the sendoff he deserved.

Brickroad
06-18-2008, 10:15 AM
I don't totally disagree with you, Brick, but Solid Snake relly does hold a special place in my heart, too. Not to mention, sometimes I have accidents. In my pants. Pants accidents.

Oh, totally. I'm all about the ending of MGS4.

I think that's how Kojima writes his stories, actually; he writes the most amazing scenes he can think of, which then forces him to torque and twist the rest of the plot at weird angles to try to make those awesome scenes work. It was worth all the blah blah magic nanos blah computerman AI yadda yadda liquidocelotliquidocelot to get that final shot and those last few lines of dialogue.

Tomm Guycot
06-18-2008, 10:23 AM
Ugh you guys.

Project Snatcher was a radio drama.

A radio drama.

We've known this for at least a year now. I'm as hopeless fanboy as the next guy (*cough* Mother3) but sometimes you just have to let insane dreams die in the cold face of reality.

TheSL
06-18-2008, 10:25 AM
Ugh you guys.

Project Snatcher was a radio drama.

I could have sworn they said it was a multi-project collaboration. (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3158809)

Suda 51 Reveals Project-S
Collaboration project with Kojima and Suda 51 unveiled.
By Yoshi Sato, 04/18/2007

According to the latest issue of Weekly Famitsu, Goichi Suda (otherwise known as Suda 51), president of the independent studio Grasshopper Manufacture, has revealed that Project-S will be a series of projects based on Hideo Kojima's classic adventure game Snatcher.

The first project will be a radio drama written by Suda 51 himself, who will also star as one of the drama's voice actors. "I think I will call it 'Snatchers'. I can't talk about the details of the story at this point," he comments.

No word on what format the other projects will take, but hopefully an actual video game will exist among them.

j00ey
06-18-2008, 04:46 PM
He wasn't visiting Boss. He was visiting the grave next to hers, which is either Gray Fox or Big Boss. Not really sure.

I thought of that but forgot about Gray Fox :( STUPID STUPID STUPID

and didn't we have a thread/derailing about Project S before anyway? I'm telling you guys, it's going to be radio dramas as far as the eye can see

Jakanden
06-18-2008, 08:02 PM
He wasn't visiting Boss. He was visiting the grave next to hers, which is either Gray Fox or Big Boss. Not really sure.

I am guessing it is Grey Fox since the Gravestone talks about Shadow Moses.

Adrenaline
06-18-2008, 08:07 PM
But it makes more sense for Big Boss to be next to the Boss.

Jakanden
06-18-2008, 08:19 PM
Hmm maybe it said Outer Heaven instead of Shadow Moses. I will have to rewatch it again.

SilentSnake
06-18-2008, 09:10 PM
So the story database comes out tomorow for free download on PSN. Maybe all of our burning questions will be answered!

Calorie Mate
06-19-2008, 09:38 AM
Hmm maybe it said Outer Heaven instead of Shadow Moses. I will have to rewatch it again.

It did say Outer Heaven. That doesn't change anything; Grey Fox supposedly died there, too.

Willm
06-19-2008, 10:54 AM
Didn't the birth date on the grave say 193X? That would have put Grey Fox in his 70's by MGS1.

I know The Boss' grave said 192X, and I always assumed that Big Boss was about 10-15 years younger than her, so that would make sense. I'm not sure though, I'll have to watch the ending again (I skipped the last scene on my second playthrough, and I'm on my third now.)

Calorie Mate
06-19-2008, 10:58 AM
Hm, I didn't even think to check the date. I'll check that out when I beat it again.

TheSL
06-19-2008, 10:59 AM
Wouldn't it not make any sense for Grey Fox or Big Boss to be next to the Boss? Its a military graveyard and I'm pretty sure they lay people out in those in the order in which they died. Edit: I guess that would make sense if it was Big Boss and Grey Fox's graves, since they both "died" in Zanzibar Land, but we know for a fact that one of them was the Boss's grave. :(

Willm
06-19-2008, 11:26 AM
Wouldn't it not make any sense for Grey Fox or Big Boss to be next to the Boss? Its a military graveyard and I'm pretty sure they lay people out in those in the order in which they died. Edit: I guess that would make sense if it was Big Boss and Grey Fox's graves, since they both "died" at Outer Heaven, but we know for a fact that one of them was the Boss's grave. :(

True. But I suppose they could have made an exception by putting the grave of the "world's greatest soldier" next to the soldier he killed to earn that title. Which makes it an appropriate place for Snake to end his life, since he was the one to have succeeded Big Boss, in a sense. And I still wish the game would have ended before the Big Boss scene, as cool as the initial shock was. Especially once Big Boss became little more than Kojima's tool to wrap up the remaining plot holes.

Remember how someone created a re-edited version of The Phantom Menace that cut out all of the needless dialogue (and Jar Jar?) I would love if someone could do the same thing with MGS4, trimming the fat that is the overblown exposition and creating something more palpable. And while they're at it, they could change the revelation that Ocelot wasn't really possessed by Liquid. C'mon, this is a world where Psycho Mantis and The Sorrow haunt the world long after their deaths, yet the idea of Ocelot being controlled by a spirit is absurd? Not much more absurd than needlessly changing your personality through psychotherapy and nanomachines.

alexb
06-19-2008, 11:36 AM
It did say Outer Heaven. That doesn't change anything; Grey Fox supposedly died there, too.

They were both believed to have been killed in Zanzibar Land, not Outer Heaven.

Calorie Mate
06-19-2008, 11:52 AM
And I still wish the game would have ended before the James Bond scene, as cool as the initial shock was. Especially once James Bond became little more than Ian Flemming's tool to wrap up the remaining presents.

I kind of disagree. Sure, the tying up of loose ends felt a little half-assed, but there was ALSO some good stuff in there, like giving Big Boss a final farewell, seeing him finally understand what The Boss was trying to tell him, etc. The part of the ending definitely needed to trim the fat, but it wasn't a total loss. I still kind of wanted to see Snake die, but hey, this fit better with Kojima's final message.

And while they're at it, they could change the revelation that Ocelot likes to kiss boys.

Yes, I could have done without that. The whole game, I was expecting Ocelot to actually be able to control his possessed body when he needed to, and was waiting for an opportune moment to seize control back from Liquid for some reason. Ah, well.


They were both believed to have been killed in Zanzibar Land, not Outer Heaven.

Er...yeah, nevermind. *grumble*

Willm
06-19-2008, 12:10 PM
I kind of disagree. Sure, the tying of shoes can be difficult, but laces are more fashionable than velcro.

I see what you're saying. Even though I thought Snakekilling himself would have made for a better overall ending, I did like seeing Big Boss again, especially since we've never seen the elderly Big Boss beyond his 50 pixel rendition in MG2. I just feel like Kojima used him incorrectly. Many of the plot twists he revealed (the truth about Ocelot, FoxDie 2.0, etc.) could have been presented by another character, like Ocelot once he's regained control of his body. In other words, I thought some parts of the Big Boss scene were excellent, such as when he saluted The Boss' grave, told Snake to stop fighting, or when he finally died smoking a final cigar, but the other stuff nearly ruined it for me. Especially his "math" speech with Zero...good God, it reminded me of Plan 9 From Outer Space, where the alien explains how sunlight can explode by talking about a gas can and gasoline...



Yes, I could have done without that. The whole game, I was expecting Ocelot to turn into Otacon's stepmom and demand hot incestual sex.

Personally, I thought Kojima was going to tie in the fact that Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow, and somehow had the ability to channel the souls of the dead. Wacky? Yes, but I think it would make sense in the wild and crazy world of Metal Gear, and it would be one less plot twist explained via magical nanomachines.

sraymonds
06-19-2008, 12:21 PM
I enjoyed the Snake vs ZOMBIES!!! section of act 2.

Alixsar
06-19-2008, 12:55 PM
I enjoyed the Snake vs ZOMBIES!!! section of act 2.

Zombies and giant robots, together at last!

cortbassist89
06-19-2008, 01:02 PM
Might I request some crazy Snake quotes? Specifically about cardboard boxes?

Snake always says dumb/crazy shit, like: A SURVEILLANCE CAMERA!? (MGS1), or "your very mission may depend on your cardboard box" (MGS2), or "I feel like I was meant to be here. Inside the box." (MGS3)

Because if Snake doesn't say crazy shit in MGS4 then I will be sad.

Calorie Mate
06-19-2008, 01:35 PM
Personally, I thought Kojima was going to tie in the fact that Ocelot has a bitchin' 'stache. Wacky? Yes, but I think it would make sense in the wild and crazy world of Metal Gear, and it would be one less plot twist explained via magical nanomachines.

No, I (and most of The Internet) agreed with you. It seems like that was the whole point, really. Kojima could have at least thrown in a line saying something like, "Ocelot's father was an accomplished spirit medium, so attaching Liquid's arm greatly boosted the effects of the psychic training," or something to that effect.

Adrenaline
06-19-2008, 01:55 PM
I enjoyed the Snake vs ZOMBIES!!! section of act 2.

I like the idea of adding that to the normal gameplay but as it was, all they did was disrupt my shooting of the Gekkos.

Rosencrantz
06-19-2008, 02:25 PM
No, I (and most of The Internet) agreed with you. It seems like that was the whole point, really. Kojima could have at least taken a bath or something to that effect.

I suppose it's now unofficial, but the MGS2 graphic novel actually had a page where the Sorrow appeared and basically confirmed that Liquid was actually taking over Ocelot's mind, and was disappointed about it.

Oh, here it is. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/aett/mgs2dgn-ocelot1.jpg)

O..O~
06-19-2008, 09:11 PM
I would of been fucking pissed if the game had ended with snake killing himself. That IS not a heroic way to die, and I was intitally appalled when I thought he really had done it. I think it would of been extremely out of snake's character to have done that, it is like he was just giving up and quitting. Snake never seemed like one to give up so easily, or take the cowards way out. Seriously, there is NOTHING heroic about that way of death and I think Kojima realized that.

My only real problem with the story is that major zero never gets to stand on his own two feet and explain his side of the story. It just bothers me that all this stuff he was done was pretty much acted on behind the scenes of the game. He ends up being one of the big villains of the entire series, but he is NEVER shown being evil anywhere in any of the games. He is just a macguffin of sorts. I don't think someone who ends up being such an integral part of the story and the catalyst for nearly all of the events in the series deserves such a role.

Adrenaline
06-19-2008, 09:14 PM
That IS not a heroic way to die, and I was intitally appalled when I thought he really had done it.

Even if it prevents a deadly epidemic?