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Brickroad
07-19-2008, 10:31 PM
PLEASE NOTE: The images in this thread do not work because Brickroad has a fat head (EDIT: Now they do. ~Papi). Check out the HTML version here (http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/).

Hey gang, let's play Suikoden!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko001.jpg

Suikoden is an early PS1 RPG by Konami. It's about a war between a corrupt imperial army and the ragtag band of rebels that opposes them. I'll be taking the role of young master McDohl as I bring all 108 Stars of Destiny underneath my banner to save the country I call home.

My love of Suikoden is deep, wide and broad. As far as I'm concerned, when you're making a list of great RPG series to have come out of Japan, you basically just write "Final Fantasy", "Dragon Quest" and "Suikoden." And then you cross out "Dragon Quest" and re-write it underneath "Suikoden" where it belongs.

The second post of this topic is going to be an updated master list of which Stars of Destiny I have recruited so far. I'll link back to it often so you guys will have an easier time telling me precisely which ragtag rebels to use in my party as I go through the game. Speaking of which...

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko002.jpg
Hey peanut gallery!
This guy needs a name. Suggestions of PANTS or any variant thereof are not eligible because of a reason.

Brickroad
07-19-2008, 10:32 PM
One of the major goals of Suikoden is to gather all 108 Stars of Destiny. Each Star of Destiny is a unique character who becomes a member of your army.

This post contains a master list of all the Stars of Destiny I've enlisted so far. Chracters in red can be assigned to the party; characters in blue can't.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/all108stars.png

Red Section:
Row 1: ○×∆□☆, Gremio, Pahn, Cleo, Viktor, Camille, Tai Ho, Yam Koo, Luc, Sergei, Kai, Maas
Row 2: Sansuke, Antonio, Lepant, Eileen, Varkas, Sydonia, Juppo, Krin, Kirkis, Meg, Sheena, Valeria
Row 3: Meese, Kuromimi, Humphrey, Kwanda, Sylvina, Stallion, Flik, Hellion, Mina, Fu Su Lu, Gon, Lorelai
Row 4: Lotte, Gen, Kamandol, Kimberly, Liukan, Milich, Anji, Leonardo, Kanak, Kasumi, Sarah, Lester
Row 5: Blackman, Kessler, Kage, Mose, Ronnie Bell, Alen, Grenseal, Kirke, Moose, Morgan, Quincy, Fukien
Row 6: Eikei, Rubi, Hix, Tengaar, Crowley, Pesmerga, Clive, Fuma, Kreutz, Milia, Futch, Mace
Row 7: Griffith, Warren, Kasim, Sonya

Blue Section:
Row 7: Mathiu, Marie, Onil, Chandler, Rock, Giovanni, Gaspar, Viki
Row 8: Templeton, Chapman, Jabba, Apple, Jeane, Tesla, Qlon, Esmeralda, Ivanov, Kasios, Georges, Ledon
Row 9: Melodye, Kun To, Marco, Zen, Hugo, Window, Leon, Joshua, Taggart, Vincent, Max, Sancho

Gredlen
07-19-2008, 10:38 PM
Hell yeah. For the record, if anyone does a Suikoden II LP, they NEED to use this data. There is no other way.

Brickroad
07-19-2008, 10:39 PM
Hell yeah. For the record, if anyone does a Suikoden II LP, they NEED to use this data. There is no other way.

I could make this happen. I'm playing on my PS2, so I can just mail my memory card off to whomever. I've got all the saves backed up on my PS3 anyway so it's not like I'd actually be losing anything.

Knight
07-19-2008, 10:54 PM
When I first saw his sprite, I thought his staff was a mop because the bottom of the staff touches the tip of his foot. So, Janitor! Or maybe a janitor's name from somewhere else, like Yani from that episode of Dexter's Lab.

Merus
07-19-2008, 11:05 PM
Call him Crono.

Torgo
07-19-2008, 11:07 PM
Oh snap.

I nominate SKUB as a name. However, 'Janitor McDohl' does has a really nice ring to it.

Mazian
07-19-2008, 11:08 PM
Ash.

Because you gotta catch 'em all.

SilentSnake
07-19-2008, 11:14 PM
Call him Crono.

But he has a bandana! Clearly he must be called Serge. After all, we ARE going after a ridiculous number of party members that we will never use.

Pajaro Pete
07-19-2008, 11:36 PM
Ash.

Because you gotta catch 'em all.

Yeah, this.
Suikoball go!
Rubi has joined the entourage!

reibeatall
07-19-2008, 11:39 PM
How about Andy BECAUSE I ROCK AND EVERYBODY SHOULD BE NAMED AFTER ME

shivam
07-20-2008, 12:37 AM
Zemenar. It's what i had to play through the game as, when my brother named it.

Kylie
07-20-2008, 12:38 AM
Cap'N. That way he can be Cap'N McDohl.

Zarathustra
07-20-2008, 12:44 AM
DILDO MCJONES.

MCDOHL.

Elfir
07-20-2008, 01:16 AM
BcDohl!!

*shrug*

DANoWAR
07-20-2008, 02:50 AM
Connor or Duncan McLeod...um, I mean McDohl.

Elfir
07-20-2008, 02:56 AM
Connor or Duncan McLeod...um, I mean McDohl.

I could get behind that. I named my FFTA2 Clan "McLeod" :3

Duncan was awesomer. Go with that one.

Or he could be McLeod McDohl. That'd be painful. ^_^

DANoWAR
07-20-2008, 02:59 AM
Oh, another one...


Ronald McDohl.


Yeah. You know it's awesome!

Thinaran
07-20-2008, 03:12 AM
Monkey. Monkey McDohl.

Something that starts with an M at least, and you guys know why.

Makkara
07-20-2008, 04:16 AM
He should be named http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7178/nameoy6.jpg. The game gives you that option for a reason.

Elfir
07-20-2008, 04:19 AM
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7178/nameoy6.jpg

Oooh that's meeean. :)

mr_bungle700
07-20-2008, 04:30 AM
He should be named http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7178/nameoy6.jpg. The game gives you that option for a reason.

I'm going to have to agree with this suggestion. You can write it as "Oxtsquastar" in the text.

Pombar
07-20-2008, 07:14 AM
I keep seeing this in the rare/retro/import store near me, but now I don't need to shell out!

kaisel
07-20-2008, 07:25 AM
Ash.

Because you gotta catch 'em all.

Something that starts with an M at least, and you guys know why.

I like Ash, but think it should ASH, y'know all caps.

I admit, my sense of humor can be rather juvenile at times. Seriously though, I got nothing else.

Kirin
07-20-2008, 08:29 AM
We could combine the two suggestions kaisel just quoted and go with Mash.

Or for another nice M-name, how about Mulder. He wants to believe in destiny?

... Yeah, I dunno.

Elfir
07-20-2008, 08:50 AM
I want to intentionally avoid M-names. So I countervote them all! Nya!

StarcDohl has its charm, right? Funny characters name but stick star on the front instead of end! :3

Parish
07-20-2008, 09:27 AM
MacDaddy McDohl, because he is SUCH a pimp. All the ladies love him, especially the white-hot bundle of sexy named Kasumi.

Nobuyuki
07-20-2008, 11:10 AM
He should be named http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7178/nameoy6.jpg. The game gives you that option for a reason.

I second this, just to see what happens in Suiko2. CirclecDohl?

Tanto
07-20-2008, 11:14 AM
They probably call him "Geno", for short.

Sanagi
07-20-2008, 12:39 PM
How about ": - )"

Elfir
07-20-2008, 12:46 PM
How about ": - )"

I don't think I could stand to read that the entire duration of the LP. Especially with how dark the game is sometimes.

Zef
07-20-2008, 01:03 PM
I don't think I could stand to read that the entire duration of the LP. Especially with how dark the game is sometimes.

": - ("

Brickroad
07-20-2008, 03:07 PM
So right now it looks like a tie between Ash and http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7178/nameoy6.jpg. Let's, uh, get a few more votes in on those I guess.

PapillonReel
07-20-2008, 03:12 PM
Put me down for OX∆◊* (and yes, you must type it like that every single time).

Rai
07-20-2008, 03:13 PM
Add another for Circlexanglesquarestar, then.

Stiv
07-20-2008, 03:14 PM
SKUB would be a tasty classic. Not that it's going to win or anything!

In that case I am voting for the crazy playstation symbol shit.

Gredlen
07-20-2008, 03:15 PM
On one hand, OX/\[]* is a fantastic name. On the other hand, I like me some Pokemons.

I'm going with Ash, even though the winner is looking clearer by the minute.

reibeatall
07-20-2008, 03:17 PM
I still say you name him Andy.

but if that's not an option, than CircleExTriangleSquareAsterisk is going to take my vote.

DANoWAR
07-20-2008, 03:50 PM
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7178/nameoy6.jpg

Brickroad
07-20-2008, 06:56 PM
Okay! First thing's first:

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/mcdohl.gif001/108: ○×∆□* McDohl
Like most RPG heroes, ○×∆□* can't be removed from the party... but if he could be, you wouldn't want to. He uses a staff in battle and fights at medium-range, so he's useful on the front line as well as the back. He doesn't have a rune yet, but before too long he'll get one of the most powerful ones in the game.

If your browser can't handle ○×∆□*'s name, blame everyone who voted for that Unicode nonsense. You guys are NUTSO.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko003.jpg
The game opens with ○×∆□* and his father, the great General Teo, waiting to be called in for their audience with the Scarlet Moon Emperor. Seems it's time for ○×∆□* to man up and join the army! Weirdly enough, the game doesn't open with a cutscene; you and daddy are just kind of hangin' around, and nothing happens until you chat with him.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko004.jpg
This leaves ○×∆□* free to run away from his duties and go treasure hunting! The only thing of value in the palace is 100 bits hidden inside this shiny statue, but hey, let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko005.jpg
They won't let you outside, though. Rats. Looks like ○×∆□* is getting drafted.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko006.jpg
"Just remember, if he asks you to pull his finger..."

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko007.jpg
You guys are going to get real, real sick of that name. And I'm not replaying anything, so you're stuck with it. Jesus for serious what is wrong with you people.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko008.jpg
Thanks, nice-lady-who-can't-possibly-be-evil!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko009.jpg
Long story short, the emperor congratulates me on my new job and then sends ○×∆□* downstairs to meet Kraze, his sniveling new boss. No fooling, this guy is a cocksucker of the highest order, and if his beard/moustache combo is any indication he only moonlights as an imperial taskmaster when he's not dying fair maidens to railroad tracks.

Brickroad
07-20-2008, 06:57 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko010.jpg
○×∆□* and Teo head home where they are welcomed by Gremio, the McDohl manservant. He slathers on some questions and then starts fretting about stew. Soon enough the game drops control back in my lap, which is fair enough since I don't want to hang around here anyway.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko011.jpg
Rule number one of every RPG ever: SAVE YOUR GAME. No room on the memory card for a new save, so we'll say farewell to Ralph here. Doesn't look like he was very far anyway. (For the record: Olaf was my most recent replay which only made it partway in, and Sam is my girlfriend's save from when she played last year. Hey guys my girlfriend played Suikoden! That is HOTT!)

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko012.jpg
○×∆□* heads outside the safety of the city of Gregminster to brave the wide world all on his lonesome. I think combat here is pretty self-explanitory: Fight tells your guys to attack (or use Runes, or whatever), Run tells them to haul ass, Bribe attempts to give the bad guys money to let you go (completely useless), and Free Will tells everyone to launch a regular attack. Most of the time I just Free Will my way through every battle I can, and the game is typically easy enough to let me get away with that...

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko013.jpg
...but with a one-man party at L1 even a couple bugs can make short work of you. Oops. A few levels and some upgraded gear will fix that, but it's rough going at the start to find monsters you can actually kill.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko014.jpg
Until I find some, I'll be doing a lot of this! Well, this and reloading the game when I can't get away and the bad guys kill me. That happened probably five or six times.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko015.jpg
Here we go! ○×∆□* can totally take this guy.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko016.jpg
Yeah buddy! That one little monster gave me enough EXP to go up two levels, piling on some more HPs and increasing my stats dramatically. EXP actually works differently in Suikoden than most RPGs; instead of needing X points to go up a level, with X increasing as you level up, you always need exactly 1000 points to level up, and gain less EXP the higher level you are. This means that fighting for a while in any given area tends to see all the characters in your party to the same plateau. This is good for two reasons: first off, because of diminishing returns, grinding EXP is not desireable. Awesome! We hate grinding EXP anyway! Secondly, it means even a pansy L1 character can be brought up to speed in mere minutes, so you never really have to pick and choose which characters to develop. That'll be important later when you cats start sticking every loser you can think of into my away team.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko017.jpg
Just upgradin' my armor, nothing really interesting to see here.

Brickroad
07-20-2008, 06:59 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko018.jpg
Here's the world map! D'awww, ain't ○×∆□*'s little sprite just precious? This is the town of Lenankaamp, far south of Gregminster. I'm making a pit stop here because...

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko019.jpg
...it's the only joint around what has a blacksmith. See, you don't replace your characters' weapons in Suikoden; rather, everyone has a favorite weapon they're stuck with, and you pay blacksmiths to sharpen them up. The sharper the weapon, the higher level it is and the more damage it deals. This eventually becomes the #1 expense in the game. Different blacksmiths have different level caps; this one can raise weapons up to L5, but I can only afford to go to L3 to now, but that should be enough for my purpose.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko020.jpg
Little demon guy = poison. Ugh.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko021.jpg
Sweet! This rare-ish monster drop is one of the most useful items in the entire game. If you don't get one now, you can buy them several hours into the game for something like 5000 bits.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko022.jpg
At the rune shop here in Gregminster, I attach the Holy Rune to ○×∆□* for now. I will hopefully remember to remove it before it's replaced with an important plot rune here in a few adventures. If someone's got a Holy Rune equipped in your group, you can hold the circle button down to run around location maps, cutting travel time in half.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko023.jpg
Leveled, geared, sharpened, runed... time to make a detour across the lake here, to Mt. Tigerwolf.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko024.jpg
This place is just lousy with treasure. This is headgear usable only by females. ○×∆□* can't use it, but one of his friends will be able to shortly.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko025.jpg
If you're stronger than the current level plateau for a given area, "Run" changes to "Let Go", which is your party showing mercy to pissant monsters that aren't worth the effort to kill. This is the main reason I leveled earlier, so I can travel all over the region without having to fight anything. Good thing too because, regardless of what the game might think, these murderous bunny rabbits would probably kill me if I threw down.

Brickroad
07-20-2008, 07:00 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko026.jpg
These rune pieces can be attached to weapons at the blacksmith to... make them pretty? Who knows. If they have an in-game effect it's not something noiceable.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko027.jpg
The inventory system in Suikoden works like in Dragon Quest; every party member carries their own stuff, and their equipped gear (shown here in teal) counts against them. Now that ○×∆□*'s inventory is maxed out, he'll have to skip the rest of the treasures here because he simply can't carry them.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko028.jpg
IS THIS FORESHADOWING!? IS THIS FORESHADOWING!?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko029.jpg
Having passed through Mt. Tigerwolf we find ourselves in this sleepy little valley, home to the tiny village of Sarady. Seriously, this whole town is like a house, an inn, and a well. And I might be lying about the well.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko030.jpg
First up is to make some room in the inventory. However useless this rune piece may (or may not!) be, it's worth 500 bits. Score.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko031.jpg
Okay, okay, time to end the suspense. Why come all the way to Sarady before the game is even started? Because this guy likes to hand out rewards!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko032.jpg
Sweet! ...of course, because of how EXP works in Suikoden, this rune actually isn't really worth all this trouble. I just wanted to show off. I'll probably end up selling this bad buy when I get back to Gregminster.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko033.jpg
So, long walk back, and here's Gremio still slaving away on his stew.

Hey peanut gallery!
I think this decision makes itself, but maybe you lot are more merciful than I am. Considering you gave poor ○×∆□* the least pronouncable name since The Artist Formerly Known As The Artist Formerly Known As Prince, though, I somehow doubt it.

Anyway, it's still pretty empty as of now, but here's a link (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2) to my collection of stars.

Gredlen
07-20-2008, 07:06 PM
Gremio is very self-conscious about his small ears. Let's help him out with that.

Pajaro Pete
07-20-2008, 07:35 PM
These rune pieces can be attached to weapons at the blacksmith to... make them pretty? Who knows. If they have an in-game effect it's not something noiceable.

Wind and Water recover a few HP each turn, Fire and Lightning add extra damage (supposedly).

Edit: Let's try to make this game as heterosexual as possible. That's a tough feat for a game that features the "Fancy Lad Attack", I know. But let's try. Don't molest Gremio.

shivam
07-20-2008, 07:36 PM
water runes are the best, especially for hero.

fire and lightning do appreciable damage bonuses, especially as you stack them on.

Nobuyuki
07-20-2008, 07:46 PM
I think you need to cheat Marco in Rockland out of some bits. I don't start a new game without getting enough money from him to fund my entire army for the rest of the game.

mopinks
07-20-2008, 07:52 PM
I'm so endlessly sad that you didn't name the main character Scrooge McDohl. :<

Pajaro Pete
07-20-2008, 07:53 PM
I think you need to cheat Marco in Rockland out of some bits. I don't start a new game without getting enough money from him to fund my entire army for the rest of the game.

Ah yes Marco. Is it a little boy, or an old woman? Oh the mysteries of mid-90s sprite-based games.

Nobuyuki
07-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Ah yes Marco. Is it a little boy, or an old woman? Oh the mysteries of mid-90s sprite-based games.

It's funny to me that they got a new artist for Suiko2 and yet there even more confusion about their genders in that one. The doctor's apprentice comes to mind. And I don't even need to mention the Prince from Suiko5.

SpoonyGundam
07-20-2008, 08:36 PM
I thought Gremio was a woman for a long time when I was a kid.

I just thought you all should know that.

Alixsar
07-20-2008, 10:13 PM
I wish I had the time to get in on this while we were still suggesting names. Gremioislame is a wonderful name for a protagonist, because GOD DAMN IT GREMIO IS LAME. I don't know if that would fit the character limit though.

MacDaddy McDohl, because he is SUCH a pimp. All the ladies love him, especially the white-hot bundle of sexy named Lorelai.

Fixed for massively increased sexiness.

Little Sampson
07-20-2008, 10:23 PM
I've never played Suikoden, but I love your LP's, so this is the next best thing right?

Can you rename every/most playable character(s) in the game?

mr_bungle700
07-20-2008, 10:25 PM
That'll be important later when you cats start sticking every loser you can think of into my away team.

Hey now, what makes you think anyone here would do something mean like...

○×∆□*

...oh. Right.

shivam
07-20-2008, 10:38 PM
also, if your team doesn't have clive, you are dead to me.

Pajaro Pete
07-21-2008, 12:06 AM
Can you rename every/most playable character(s) in the game?

No. But that's mostly because there's like 70 playable characters.

Hey now, what makes you think anyone here would do something mean like...

Oh it's going to be all Blacksmiths and Kimberly. And Krin.

Torgo
07-21-2008, 12:52 AM
I am incredibly disappointed by the name choice, and in turn all of you. If any of you try to pull a stunt like that on me I'll promptly ignore you and choose something else.

Regardless, Brick knows how to make things awesome and will more then make do in spite of it.

Mightyblue
07-21-2008, 01:19 AM
It's funny to me that they got a new artist for Suiko2 and yet there even more confusion about their genders in that one. The doctor's apprentice comes to mind. And I don't even need to mention the Prince from Suiko5.The entire plot revolves around Suiko V's prince being male. How could you get THAT confused?

Parish
07-21-2008, 01:30 AM
Fixed for massively increased sexiness.
You prefer she-man mullets to half-naked ninja cuteness? Well, hey, it's a free society. I won't judge.

jovewolf
07-21-2008, 01:47 AM
The entire plot revolves around Suiko V's prince being male. How could you get THAT confused?

I guess some people can't wrap their heads around his primary outfit or something which is, admittedly, not the most masculine thing in the world. Still while to each their own, I still like it much better than his *safety orange poncho* from the beginning of the game.

Elfir
07-21-2008, 01:52 AM
You prefer she-man mullets to half-naked ninja cuteness? Well, hey, it's a free society. I won't judge.

Better tap it now before she gets that awful perm in 2.

Makkara
07-21-2008, 03:37 AM
You guys are going to get real, real sick of that name. And I'm not replaying anything, so you're stuck with it. Jesus for serious what is wrong with you people.

I'm sorry. :(

Disclaimer: the author of this post may not actually be sorry.


Gremio is very self-conscious about his small ears. Let's help him out with that.

Yes, ○×∆□☆ (it's not an asterisk, dude) looks like the kind of guy who would torment the help for fun.

Octopus Prime
07-21-2008, 03:40 AM
I'd like to think that... The McDohl formerly known as McDohl is upset at his name and lashes out at others.

Give those ears a yank!

Elfir
07-21-2008, 03:52 AM
I vote for tickling. Make her squeal!

McDohl
07-21-2008, 10:13 AM
I guess some people can't wrap their heads around his primary outfit or something which is, admittedly, not the most masculine thing in the world. Still while to each their own, I still like it much better than his *safety orange poncho* from the beginning of the game.

His best outfit is his disguise outfit.

Dhroo
07-21-2008, 12:40 PM
I vote for tickling. Make her squeal!

Second! Tickle the hell out of that guy.

Elfir
07-21-2008, 12:49 PM
Second! Tickle the hell out of that guy.

Still going to refer to Gremio as a girl. In fact, when in doubt it's a girl. Not enough gender equality in games anyway.

Nobuyuki
07-21-2008, 01:05 PM
The entire plot revolves around Suiko V's prince being male. How could you get THAT confused?

I honestly remember looking at the first bits of concept art and info coming out when it was announced and thinking to myself "Finally, a female lead. How progressive!"

jovewolf
07-21-2008, 01:19 PM
His best outfit is his disguise outfit.
I do agree with this.

I honestly remember looking at the first bits of concept art and info coming out when it was announced and thinking to myself "Finally, a female lead. How progressive!"
But what about Chris in Suikoden 3?
(Alright she wasn't the only possible lead in that one, but still)


As for Gremio - I'm for tickling him too.

Dhroo
07-21-2008, 01:20 PM
Still going to refer to Gremio as a girl. In fact, when in doubt it's a girl. Not enough gender equality in games anyway.

Ah, but we're dealing with a Japanese, anime-styled game here. So when in doubt, someone that pretty is probably a dude. Pretty much every RPG ever backs me up on this one.

Elfir
07-21-2008, 01:44 PM
Ah, but we're dealing with a Japanese, anime-styled game here. So when in doubt, someone that pretty is probably a dude. Pretty much every RPG ever backs me up on this one.

Okay, then Lepant's wife is totally a dude.

Btw Brick, you're using her in at least one dungeon. But she's actually kinda good.

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 01:45 AM
Yes, ○×∆□☆ (it's not an asterisk, dude) looks like the kind of guy who would torment the help for fun.

Yeah well I couldn't find a star on the character map, okay? Why couldn't you have picked a normal name like Bill or Fred or something? Anyway...

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko034.jpg
Man you guys are cold, pullin' on a brother's ears like that. What if one of the options had been "jab an icepick into his spine and then urinate on him as he writhed on the floor in agony?"

Actually, don't answer that. I don't think my poor heart could take it.

Anyway, here's a super magical alternate ending (http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko035.jpg) for you tickle fetishists out there.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko036.jpg
Let's meet the rest of the McDohl entourage, shall we? Here we have Cleo, who for all I can figure is Teo's concubine. What I want to know is, how many times has she had to tell ○×∆□☆? And if it's such a problem, why not just install a deadbolt?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko037.jpg
In the next room we have our lazy karate man, Pahn. If I weren't such a classy guy I'd make a "kung fu Pahn-da" joke here. Boy I bet you all are glad I'm such a classy guy.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko038.jpg
Upstairs ○×∆□☆ is put on the spot by his best buddy Ted, who demands to know all about the emperor. He hops into your party here and the game drops control back in your lap, so you're actually free to run away and do whatever at this point. If you make the trip to Sarady with Ted in your party, you get a Prosperity Rune instead of a Fortune Rune as your reward. The Prosperity Rune doubles the bits you get from combat, which simply isn't that useful.

I know, I know. Any other RPG? You would kill to have "double EXP" and "double money" items to exploit within an hour of firing the game up. Suikoden? Neither one is a big hairy deal. Anyway, you can't get both runes at once (at least, not using this method) and even if I were to run back to Mt. Tigerwolf all those fights I could previously "Let Go" would now be too tough for me since Ted drags my average party level down to L5.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko039.jpg
I'm sure you would, little buddy!

(...by the way, Windy's the bad guy.)

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko040.jpg
At dinner, Teo fills everyone in on his new mission to travel north and beat up some rapscallions from the "City-State of Jowstone". This is just a throwaway location that the characters mention in passing but are never actually featured anywhere in the game, meant to add a little depth and flavor to it. It comes off as pretty cheesy in the first game, especially to someone who is used to being able to visit and explore absolutely every dot on the map, but as the series progresses this kind of haphazard namedropping actually starts to pay off. Later on, for example, "Jowstone" is retconned to be the City-States of Jowston, a collection of quasi-autonomous countries that serve as the setting of Suikoden 2. Suikoden 2 in turn introduces characters from a huge variety of locales such as the Grasslands, Zexen, Falena, and the Island Nations. These are little more than just names when they're introduced, but they becom full-fledged settings for later games. In fact, practically the entire story of Suikoden 5 is the culmination of an optional two-line bakstory tidbit of one of the minor cast members of Suikoden 2.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko041.jpg
Teo leaves the next morning before properly saying good-bye. He's sure he'll see ○×∆□☆ again. (Spoiler: he's right!)

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko042.jpg
And we're all ready to go see Kraze and get our first assignment! Especially Pahn, who measures his worth in how many people he has beaten up on any given day.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko042a.jpg
I promise, guys, eventually I'll have an army. But for now at least my team has some numbers to it! Teams in Suikoden consist of six people lined up in two rows. Here we see their names, portraits, HP total and weapon range. Weapon range breaks down like this: you have (S)hort, (M)id and (L)ong range weapons. S-range people can't attack from the back row, M- and L-range can attack from either row. The biggest effect this has on gameplay is limiting the amount of S-range folks you can stick in your party at any given time; three is fine, four means someone is stinking up the back line without anything useful to do.

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 01:48 AM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/gremio.gif002/108: Gremio
The McDohl manservant is a totally decent M-range fighter without any decent Rune abilities. He tends to tag along with the party whether you want him or not, so get used to him.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/pahn.gif003/108: Pahn
Pahn is a powerful S-range fighter who is held back by his fixed Rune. See, most characters can swap their Rune for something else over at the Runemaster shop. Some folks use magic Runes well (which I'll explain in detail in a later post, once I start using them), some prefer Attack Runes (like Pahn's Boar Rune) and some have slots best suited to Utility Runes (like the Holy Rune ○×∆□☆ has right now). Sometimes people come with fixed Runes, meaning the Runemaster can't remove it. Pahn's Boar Rune deals a fair bit of damage, but leaves him Unbalanced in the next round, meaning he loses his turn. Not exactly super-useful, especially as we advance in the game and recruit people who are just as strong but can put their Rune slot to better use.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/cleo.gif004/108: Cleo
Cleo is a very awesome L-range attacker who gets decent, but not great, use out of Magic Runes. We could go buy her a Magic Rune if we wanted, but I'm not going to bother. She's a favorite amongst the fanbase.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko043.jpg
First thing on the agenda is to get this team outfitted properly! I'm going to move my Holy Rune from ○×∆□☆ over to Gremio for now. Remember how in FF6 you always gave your Sprint Shoes to someone who wasn't really going to make great use of both their relic slots anyway? Same principle here. ○×∆□☆ is eventually going to have his Rune slot filled by a plot contrivance, whereas Gremio will never do anything useful with his.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko044.jpg
Next to drum up some cash. I have a few trinkets to sell. Hmm... looks like Gremio has run up a tab at this shop. I'm sure we'll never actually have to deal with it, though!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko045.jpg
Pawning off the nice-but-not-necessary EXP-boosting Rune pulls in a cool 25k! More than enough to get everyone the best armor we can wear from Gregminster, but not enough to sharpen everyone's weapons. You know what they say though, you have to spend money to make money. Time for a field trip!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko046.jpg
East of Gregminster is the town of Rockland, which was renamed Megaland in the US release.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko047.jpg
There's a lot of debate as to whether Marco is a man or a woman. Honestly, it's neither: it's an elaborate ATM. What do you say, Talking Time? Let's play money-making game!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko048.jpg
This is a standard "find the coin!" minigame. You can bet 100, 1000 or 10000 bits; the higher your bet, the faster the cups move. However, some lazy programmer hard-coded the cups you find the coin under. So if you were to, say, walk up with 20000 bits, let it ride until you were broke, and record which cup you find the coin under each time... you could then reload the game and win fabulous amounts of money in a stupidly short span of time. I usually just record the first three or four cups in the sequence, because leaving Rockland and then walking back in is enough to trick Marco into starting the order over.

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 01:51 AM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko049.jpg
Thanks for the contribution, sucker! By the way, this isn't even the most broken money-making gimmick in the game. This is enough to tide me over until I can really rake in some mad bits, though.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko050.jpg
Just to give a slight idea of how expensive blacksmithing is... here's what my funds look like after bringing everyone's weapons up to L5. I'm still loaded, but I did take a serious bite out of my walkin'-around money.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko051.jpg
Okay, enough screwing around. Let's go see Kraze. He gives us some phoney-baloney job about going to see some astrologer... yadda yadda yadda. Then, just to make sure ○×∆□☆ is paying attention, he quizzes him:

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko052.jpg
Of course, you're given the option to serve up some snark if you want. Kraze wasn't kidding though; even if you backtalk him, he still won't repeat the directions. He does say we get to ride a dragon, though!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko053.jpg
Unfortunately our dragon knight Futch looks more like he belongs at a Pokémon convention than flying on giant firebreathing monsters. Oh crap a lot of you guys play Pokémon don't you? Whoops. Also his dragon, Black, sounds like an elephant.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko054.jpg
Ted's not exactly a friendly guy. He pretty much lips off to everyone within earshot. This probably explains why ○×∆□☆ is his best friend; being mute, he has no recourse against Ted's scathing wit.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko055.jpg
From this screenshot I can only assume we are all riding in Black's gut. Here's a link (http://youtube.com/watch?v=PPLMFhUsjEg) to a YouTube recording of this scene, so you can hear Black in all his elephant-y glory. Don't worry, you only have to watch about the first 15 seconds.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko056.jpg
The astrologer we're looking for lives on Magician's Island, which is a tiny forest dungeon we could essentially sleepwalk through. At the end is boy wonder Luc, who summons a boss for us.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko057.jpg
The boss, of course, goes down in a single round because my guys are all bro-awesome. Here Pahn and Gremio are demonstrating their Unite attack. Certain characters can team up for super-attacks like this. They're actually not as important or prominent as they probably could be, and there's not a lot of incentive for finding them given how powerful things like Rune Magic are later on. There's also no decent system of discovering them outside of just throwing random people in your party and crossing your fingers. There's an excellent chance that Talisman Attack is literally the only Unite a player might reasonably come across in the entire game.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko058.jpg
So what happens to people who fail the test? They just get pummeled and die? "Hey Luc, where's the Imperial messengers we were expecting?" "Smooshed to pulp by a rockmonster. Why do you ask?"

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 01:53 AM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko059.jpg
The seer obviously lives at the top of a very tall tower. I didn't actually count but I estimate I walked up 287,000 screens of spiral staircase.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko060.jpg
Man, what is it with creepy old women calling ○×∆□☆ cute? I mean, I guess he's kinda cute. I dunno. Anyway what's worse, being called cute by a lady who appears to be blind (or, at least, always keeps her eyes closed), or having her apologize for it?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko061.jpg
Turns out this is actually Lady Leknaat, who even five games into the series we still don't know much about other than a vague connection to stars and destiny. And yes, her name really is "Leknaat", and it sounds even more ridiculous than it looks. Seriously the first time I heard her voice actor (in Suikoden 4) pronounce her name as though she were some kind of intersteller battleship, my eyes rolled right out of my head. "Shit, giant space octopus! Quick! Arm the lek-naught!"

Fun fact: Suikoden is pretty hilariously low-budget in places. For example, the blue flames in those elaborate-looking blue braziers looks nice, but isn't animated. It's just, like, frozen there, in place. Unsettling.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko062.jpg
Leknaat gives me the predictions I came for, assures me I have a lot of hard choices ahead, and gives me a Fire Rune, then asks Luc to teleport me down the tower so I don't have to walk back.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko063.jpg
Ted, who had previously shot his mouth off at Luc, gets teleported a few feet in the air and drops to the ground. Oh, Luc!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko064.jpg
Futch flies us back to Gregminster, and it's mission accomplished! I'm pretty sure there's no theater anywhere in town, though, and even if there were I'm sure they have a strict "no dragons allowed" policy. Maybe Black is a seeing-eye dragon.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko065.jpg
This is about the biggest compliment ○×∆□☆ will ever get from Kraze. He doesn't waste any time; without even giving ○×∆□☆ a coffee break he launches directly into the next menial chore he has for me, which involves shaking some sleazebag down in Rockland for taxes he isn't paying.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko066.jpg
Yeah, moron, I JUST SAID THAT. Sheesh. So Kraze doesn't trust us to bring the money back ourselves, so he sends his lacky Kanaan along with us. Kanaan is a character so unbelievably worthless that I can't believe they actually included him in the game. In fact, I'm not even going to show you his portrait yet. Screw you, Kanaan.

So Rockland's up next! It actually involves a for-real dungeon and the plot starts to get interesting (I promise!). Here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2) is the up-to-date star chart. Wait a minute, why is Ted missing from it? Find out next time on Let's Play Suikoden!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko067.jpg
Oh, Milich, ANYTHING is fabulous when wrapped around that delicious body of yours!

mr_bungle700
07-22-2008, 02:27 AM
Man, what is it with creepy old women calling ○×∆□☆ cute?

Obviously they call him "cute" because they can't pronounce "○×∆□☆."

estragon
07-22-2008, 05:24 AM
also, if your team doesn't have clive, you are dead to me.

Conversely, if your team has Clive, you're dead to me.

(Actually, I don't care, I just think he's an incredibly generic character that they try too hard to make cool. He's the Poochy of Suikoden.)

There's just too many hilarious characters in this game to even consider generic-man-in-black-with-gun, and the game is usually easy enough to put the interesting ones in your party, whether or not their stats blow.

Octopus Prime
07-22-2008, 05:34 AM
I always used Flik and Victor (Fliktor, as it was known round the school hall) in Suikoden and its sequel, so I don't want to see that this time.

You hear me? I want you to not use my favorite characters Brickroad!

PapillonReel
07-22-2008, 05:54 AM
I've an idea - why don't we have Brick swap in every character as they become available?

shivam
07-22-2008, 09:02 AM
you can't not use flik and viktor. they're practically fixed party members for 3/4ths of the game.

Also, cleo with rage rune in endgame party OR ELSE.

estragon
07-22-2008, 09:06 AM
I've an idea - why don't we have Brick swap in every character as they become available?

This is the best idea.

Octopus Prime
07-22-2008, 09:36 AM
you can't not use flik and viktor. they're practically fixed party members for 3/4ths of the game.


Really? It has been a long-long-long while since I last played Suikoden.

This revelation that my request is impossible makes me strangely happy, though.

Elfir
07-22-2008, 09:44 AM
Yeah, Fliktor's required for a LOT of the game, including the final dungeon. Trouble is that makes front row space hard to come by so lotsa dudes get left out.

I like the cycling through everybody idea. Drop Fliktor when possible. Not like they don't catch back up in levels fast. Plus it means sharpening EVERYTHING. ^_^

shivam
07-22-2008, 09:55 AM
bah. fliktor wins forever.

Elfir
07-22-2008, 10:04 AM
bah. fliktor wins forever.

Doesn't matter: It's boring looking at those same two dudes the entire freaking game! Suikoden 2 was a lot better about that stuff... not perfect but still better.

Rosencrantz
07-22-2008, 10:09 AM
Doesn't matter: It's boring looking at those same two dudes the entire freaking game! Suikoden 2 was a lot better about that stuff... not perfect but still better.

One of the worst times this happens in Suikoden 2 is when you have to make a party of animals and kids to go to the school... but even if you've recruited everyone to that point, you don't get a very good selection to choose from.

Elfir
07-22-2008, 10:31 AM
One of the worst times this happens in Suikoden 2 is when you have to make a party of animals and kids to go to the school... but even if you've recruited everyone to that point, you don't get a very good selection to choose from.

I love that part. ^_^

I also love the unicorn quest. Seeing just who can recruit him is fun.

Nobuyuki
07-22-2008, 01:15 PM
You have to have a party of just the blacksmiths, and you have to show us their ULTIMATE ATTACK!!

Calorie Mate
07-22-2008, 02:40 PM
bah. fliktor wins forever.

I'll back you up. If there's another way to play, I certainly don't know what it is.

Pajaro Pete
07-22-2008, 07:21 PM
(Actually, I don't care, I just think he's an incredibly generic character that they try too hard to make cool. He's the Poochy of Suikoden.)

Elza for life.

estragon
07-22-2008, 08:33 PM
One of the worst times this happens in Suikoden 2 is when you have to make a party of animals and kids to go to the school... but even if you've recruited everyone to that point, you don't get a very good selection to choose from.

Maybe I was doing it wrong or something, but my party at that point was more or less as good as it was at any other point in the game. I think you just hate animals and kids. Put more animals and kids in your party!

shivam
07-22-2008, 08:36 PM
besides, if you're not playing suiko 2 with shiro, you're doing it wrong.

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 08:38 PM
I'm going out of town for a few days, but I'll get another episode up before bed tonight!

So shivam, should I plan to send you this memory card when I'm done so you can grace us with Suiko2? =)

shivam
07-22-2008, 08:41 PM
lol. i'd do it in a heartbeat if it wasn't so much work, and if all my time wasn't going to wedding planning =)

SpoonyGundam
07-22-2008, 09:19 PM
Whoever does the Suikoden II LP has to do the Clive sidequest, or it is not worth doing.

Torgo
07-22-2008, 09:54 PM
besides, if you're not playing suiko 2 with shiro, you're doing it wrong.

Ample Vigour
07-22-2008, 10:20 PM
Shiro, Shilo and whoever else have no place on Team Vigour.
>:[

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 11:30 PM
HELLO TALKING TIME! ARE YOU READY TO ROCKland!?

Ahem.

Okay, where were we. Ah yes, off to Rockland to see a man about some taxes. Now where was that again?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko068.jpg
Hold on, let me get a pen. One more time?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko069.jpg
The subject is what? Foxes?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko070.jpg
Can you maybe Mapquest that for me real quick?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko071.jpg
Dude you got a little vein in your head there. Kinda purple. It looks neat!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko072.jpg
Yes. Dance for ○×∆□☆'s amusement!

Kraze will repeat these messages endlessly, and it's pretty fun just sitting there forcing him to cycle through them in a "○×∆□☆, WILT THOU GO TO ROCKLAND? (Y/N) BUT THOU MUST!" kind of way. Really this is the only satisfaction you can get working for Kraze. He's such an unlikeable guy. Wouldn't it be keen if the game would just let us kill him?

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 11:31 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko074.jpg
Back in Rockland ○×∆□☆ hooks up with Grady, who feeds him some sob story about how bandits up in the mountains have been pillaging all their hard-earned taxes. He says this with a straight face while sitting in his posh hillside mansion. (Or, at least, the closest facsimile to a posh hillside mansion permitted by Suikoden's tiny can't-animate-flames budget.)

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko075.jpg
Gah! Hello, ugly!

Okay, so Kanaan is probably the most infuriating NPC in the game, even moreso than Kraze. Something like 70% of the dialogue boxes between here and the bandits and back are Kanaan talking about how great he is or how we sniveling dogs should be grateful to do his bidding or whatever the hell else. He doesn't even hop in the party to help us out, just tags along with that yapper of his. He quickly volunteers us for a bandit extermination mission, which Gremio frets about but Pahn is all gung-ho for. Well, okay, let's go get us some bandits!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko076.jpg
But the treasure box is this way!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko077.jpg
Alright, alright, off to Mt. Seifu with us. I probably didn't want that crusty ol' treasure anyway.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko078.jpg
Thanks for the pep talk, slick. What's your job back at the palace, anyway? Kneel down next to Kraze's desk so he has a place to set his drink?

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 11:34 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko079.jpg
Let's talk a little about Suikoden's menu interface. It's functional, but a little clunkier than it could be. Because you don't have a communal inventory, passing equipment around can be kind of a chore. Any time you get a new piece of gear, you have to open up the item screen and pick "Hand over", which will show you whether or not anyone else in the team can make use of it. For instance, right here we can see that the Boots ○×∆□☆ just picked up are improvements for everyone but Cleo. ○×∆□☆ is a mutant capable of wearing two pairs of Boots, though, so he equips those and we repeat the process with the Gloves. Those get handed off to someone, whose old equipment is checked against the party, and so on down the line, until everyone is fully geared up in hand-me-downs. This actually sounds like it works fine, and indeed it does for a party of five or six... but remember we will eventually be outfitting over seventy characters, and the game is just not equipped to make that a speedy process. I'll go into more detail on exactly why once I get my HQ.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko080.jpg
Unlike the elemental rune pieces, these stat rune pieces are actually pretty keen. They're standard "raise a stat!" items you can use on someone. You could argue there's an element of strategy in using them on specific characters for specific reasons, but again, over seventy characters. So I'm just going to feed them all to ○×∆□☆ to save myself the headache.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko081.jpg
Here's something neat: a ? Pot! Something from the Riddler's home collection. We'll play with this a little later, when we aren't on a bandit hunt.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko082.jpg
Wow, that's one intense looking bandit. Niiiiice bandit.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko083.jpg
Craaaaaaaaaaaaaap.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko084.jpg
After the giant ant monster makes the floor devour us a few times, we have a discussion about whether or not we could actually kill it, or if we should run away, or what. Kanaan at least seems to have his priorities straight.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko085.jpg
Um, Ted, no, this isn't some "punk" dragon knight or magician's apprentice. It's a goddamned insect beast from the nine hells. You can't snark this one, champ. Let's just--

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko086.jpg
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko087.jpg
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko088.jpg
Um, okay, or you could call forth a two-story tall orb of annihilation. That works too. Good show, old bean! How'd you--

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 11:35 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko089.jpg
Tsk. Fine.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko090.jpg
Another weird thing Suikoden does CONSTANTLY is these weird asides. Like, a character will say something and nobody else will hear him. This occassionally happens from across the room.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko091.jpg
Hey guys, you might entertain more if you didn't have a giant antmonster in your basement. I'm just sayin'.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko092.jpg
...LESSON. Dammit, Konami, there was clearly room in the text box for that last word. See, now I have to lecture everyone on widows and orphans and why they're bad so--

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko093.jpg
...okay, fair enough. Obviously, by "I'm gonna teach you a lesson!" Kanaan means "These guys standing next to me with the super-sharp weapons who are wearing multiple pairs of boots are gonna teach you a lesson!"

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko094.jpg
Varkas and Sydonia are kinda-sorta bosses, so I guess they're worth screencapping. I think I caught ○×∆□☆ mid-sneeze here.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko095.jpg
The bandits go down to two rounds of Free Will, we put them in our pockets, and it's time to head back to town.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko097.jpg
Of course Varkas's response to Grady's accusation that he's a tax thief is "NO U". Anyway the bandits are hauled off to a dungeon and we get what's coming to us!

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 11:37 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko098.jpg
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko099.jpg
Now THAT'S the kind of love I'm talkin' about!

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko100.jpg
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko101.jpg
...you doucheweasel.

Okay, you know what? Fine. Enjoy your chump change pal. ○×∆□☆ has more than that tucked up under his bandana.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko102.jpg
On the way back to Gregminster I got this sweet shot of Gremio bitchsmacking a soldier ant. You know when you get a critical hit in Suikoden because the camera zooms all up in close and you can count the bad guy's dying pixels.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko104.jpg
Back in Gregminster after a hard day's work. Kanaan offers to run triumphantly to Kraze and take all the credit while we get the night off, but for some reason invites Ted along for the ride. Surely Ted prefers our company to his though, right?

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko105.jpg
Oh, god dammit Ted. Fine. Go on then. My feelings aren't hurt at ALL.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko106.jpg
Before dinner, though, we're going to hit up the appraisal shack to see about this ? pot. Hmm...

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko107.jpg
Looks like it's a 2500-bit Vase! Nice! Later on we can use these antiques to decorate a specific room at HQ. But right now HQ is McDohl manner, so I'll just sell it. Don't worry, we'll find tons more along the way.

shivam
07-22-2008, 11:37 PM
incidentally, the mt seifu music is what made me realise that i was playing pretty much the best rpg ever.

Brickroad
07-22-2008, 11:38 PM
http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko108.jpg
Dinner's done and the table's cleared off, and Ted still isn't home. Kanaan must have some REALLY bitchin' Nintendo games.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko109.jpg
Except no, we go downstairs to find Ted collapsed in a puddle of his own blood. Whoops! Eventually Gremio gets it into his head to move him to a bed, and asks ○×∆□☆ for help moving him there.

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko110.jpg
Hey peanut gallery!
On one hand, Ted's bad attitude alienated that WAY COOL dragon knight and Leknaat's handsome boytoy, and he totally ditched us to go hang out with his new friends up at the palace. On the other, he did prevent ○×∆□☆ from being chewed on by an ant of unusual size. What say you? Help him? Or leave him to bleed out all over my nice new rug?

I didn't get anybody new, but here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2) is the star chart anyway, just for kicks.

Mazian
07-23-2008, 12:51 AM
What say you? Help him?
He's only being a jerk because your S-Link with him is low rank, and the only way to fix that is to spend some time with him. Help the guy out.
I hear he likes book covers.

Lucas
07-23-2008, 12:55 AM
I say we help him. Lord only knows what that rune of his will do if he's too dead to control it.

Probably nothing, but better safe than sorry.

Octopus Prime
07-23-2008, 04:14 AM
You saw what that rune can do! What's to stop him from using it against you one day?

Elfir
07-23-2008, 07:13 AM
Guys! He's all covered with icky blood!! It might stain ○×∆□☆'s outfit! ... red outfit.

Fine. But if ○×∆□☆'s shirt has mismatched red pixels the rest of the game don't come crying to me.

SlimJimm
07-23-2008, 09:21 AM
So when do you get the old man with the staff?
I only ask because I remember he had a move with McDohl that hits every bad guy and so I used him all game.

shivam
07-23-2008, 09:26 AM
he's at the bridge.
i never once used him, and i'm kinda glad i didn't, cause he sounds as broken as the two hero combo in suiko 2.

Rai
07-23-2008, 10:36 AM
Clearly that's not blood, it's just ketchup. He's probably trying to punk you. And if he's not, it'll do him some good to learn how to recover from a fatal wound on his own. Don't help him.

shivam
07-23-2008, 10:53 AM
Whoever does the Suikoden II LP has to do the Clive sidequest, or it is not worth doing.

the problem with this is that it forces you to rush through the game, which is completely against everything that is awesome about suiko2.

SpoonyGundam
07-23-2008, 11:06 AM
True! I'll change the statement, then.

Whoever does the Suikoden II LP should use a Gameshark or AR or whatever to stop the clock from moving, giving time for the unreasonable Clive sidequest and everything else.

Elfir
07-23-2008, 11:09 AM
True! I'll change the statement, then.

Whoever does the Suikoden II LP should use a Gameshark or AR or whatever to stop the clock from moving, giving time for the unreasonable Clive sidequest and everything else.

Yeah, that's the only way I could do it. I've never even gotten the "good" ending on that one. Though I feel the bad one ought to be cannon because it fits the game so well.

Falselogic
07-23-2008, 12:15 PM
I kept balking at the price of Suikoden games on eBay. I found the 2nd and
3rd in the series on the cheap but the first the price always went above $60, now I don't have to!

Pajaro Pete
07-23-2008, 01:24 PM
He should carry his sweet prince to the bedroom.

Alixsar
07-23-2008, 05:29 PM
I have a spoiler-filled proposal:

[When Gremio dies, let's not get all of the stars and save him.]

Because I HATE GREMIO SO SO MUCH ARGH

Re: Suikoden 2 LP: I'd love to see it, but I don't know if anyone out there is crazy enough to do it right.

shivam
07-23-2008, 05:32 PM
oh hell to the fuck no. that action is absolutely unacceptable.

Alixsar
07-23-2008, 05:45 PM
oh hell to the fuck no. that action is absolutely unacceptable.

It's the best idea ever. He's annoying and he sucks...who cares about the good ending? He [dies the bitch death he deserves] and he should stay that way.

kaisel
07-23-2008, 06:36 PM
oh hell to the fuck no. that action is absolutely unacceptable.

I have to agree with shivam. Then again I actually liked Gremio.

Malefor
07-23-2008, 09:05 PM
oh hell to the fuck no. that action is absolutely unacceptable.

Yeah, Suikoden is all about the OCD collection of all 108 stars, despite the fact that most of them number among the halt and the lame.

I'm still kind of annoyed about the ducks in Suikoden III.

dwolfe
07-23-2008, 09:55 PM
Wouldn't it be keen if the game would just let us kill him?

Apparently Fable 2 lets you do just that to annoying characters...

Torgo
07-23-2008, 11:37 PM
oh hell to the fuck no. that action is absolutely unacceptable.

Kirin
07-24-2008, 08:11 AM
Quack

Aw, How can you hate on Sgt. Joe like that?

Elfir
07-24-2008, 08:19 AM
I liked the duckfolk better the second time through for some reason... I still didn't use them when presented with the option but meh. The Suikoden world is filled with random species like that.

Alixsar
07-24-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm with Elfir. I'd rather play as duck with a halberd (who actually has a bit of depth to him) than a childish dog with an ax or those squirrels with the capes or a unicorn or...well, you get the idea.

Nobuyuki
07-24-2008, 04:46 PM
I'm not a fan of the ducks but they're still preferable to those freaky ass cat people in Suikoden 4. Is there some way to unmake that game?

O..O~
07-24-2008, 05:52 PM
The death of gremio is one of the must underrated dramatic rpg deaths. It brought a tear to my 10 year old eye.

Octopus Prime
07-24-2008, 06:14 PM
The fact that he narrates how he is being eaten alive is somewhat memorable.

"Memorable", in this case meaning "horrific".

McDohl
07-24-2008, 06:31 PM
I'm not a fan of the ducks but they're still preferable to those freaky ass cat people in Suikoden 4. Is there some way to unmake that game?

Nekobolds > Toilet Ducks

Pajaro Pete
07-24-2008, 06:53 PM
Nekobolds > Toilet Ducks

You seem to be having trouble typing. I think you were looking for the "<" key, because the Ducks? So much better.

Alixsar
07-24-2008, 06:53 PM
The fact that he narrates how he likes touching children is somewhat memorable.

"Memorable", in this case meaning "horrific".

This is all spoilers, so you've been warned.

I thought it was funny as hell. I think it's partially because I don't like him, but also partly because he calls McDohl Young Master a million times within a few sentences. And it has to be partially because he gets eaten by plants, which seems incredibly silly to me.

By the way, (http://www.suikosource.com/games/gs1/scenes/gremiodeath.php) I'm exaggerating but...not really that much. The scene as a whole is terribly written (Did you know that these spores eat humans? Man-eating spores they are!) and absurd and it just doesn't do it for me.

Malefor
07-24-2008, 08:52 PM
Aw, How can you hate on Sgt. Joe like that?

If it's any consolation, I hate the Nekobolds from Suikoden IV even more - the only reason I didn't harsh on them was because I'd blotted them from my memory, along with the rest of that miserable excuse for a game.

Brickroad
07-26-2008, 02:50 PM
Guys, I'm getting all 108 stars. To not do so would be just really silly.

I'm back from vacation! So here's another update. This one is long and boring and story-heavy, but we're still technically in the prologue so whatevs. I find you don't really realize how much dialogue a game has until you have to start screenshotting it.

So okay, it was kind of vague who wanted to help Ted and who didn't, but I think the "leave him die" camp won. You guys are great! Picking that option doesn't actually cause Ted to die, but it does cause Gremio to yell at ○×∆□☆. Cleo sticks up for him though:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko111.jpg
Cleo totally understands why someone would want to let a jerkhole like Ted just bleed out all over the foyer, but unfortunately she knows Teo would stick her with the cleaning bill when he gets home. So she sticks him in bed where he eventually comes to and tells us his whole sob story.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko112.jpg
"Sure thing, horrifying villain man!"

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko113.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko114.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko115.jpg
Okay, here's the thing. Ted has been on the lam from Windy for 300 years because she wants that mad powerful rune he's lugging around. That part's all well and good, except why in the world would he choose to hide out in Gregminster, where Windy is more or less famous, and in the house of a high-profile Imperial General to boot!? And even if he were going to go that far, where would he get the idea to actually go to the palace -- where he knows Windy is -- when the asshole Imperial guy tells him too? The way the text in the game reads, Ted isn't aware that Windy is Windy, but on the other hand he recognizes her on sight as soon as he steps into the room. The only conclusion I can come up with is that in addition to being a jerk Ted is phenominally stupid.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko116.jpg
Lending credence to the "phenominally stupid" theory, Ted unleashes the power of his cursed rune, the Soul Eater, in this tiny closet of a room. All of the wounds ○×∆□☆ found him with were self-inflicted. Look, I'm just saying that if someone demanded that I give them my gun my first inclination would not be to point it at my own head.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko117.jpg
Eventually the strain of telling us how dumb he is wears him out, and Ted falls back asleep. Pahn takes this opportunity to run off and buy some Medicine, even though we have like 60 of them sitting in our collective inventory.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko118.jpg
"Now put my right hand in... okay, now take it out... now shake it all about..."

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko119.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko120.jpg
Too worn out from his suicide attempt, Ted decides the best thing he can do is pawn off the Soul Eater on his ol' buddy ○×∆□☆.

Brickroad
07-26-2008, 02:53 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko121.jpg
There's a good reason ○×∆□☆ is so eager to get his hand on a cursed rune. (Or, more correctly, get a cursed rune on his hand.) Like all things in life, the Soul Eater can draw parallels with this Skittles commercial (http://youtube.com/watch?v=MUJ4uorYPoY). Sure, the Soul Eater means ○×∆□☆ can never know love and happiness, and everything he cares about will die hideously, but it looks cool and now he can totally kill monsters in one hit. So yeah, pretty awesome!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko122.jpg
TED IS CALORIE MATE CONFIRMED.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko123.jpg
And thus does ○×∆□☆ obtain the Soul Eater. Note that if I hadn't slipped my Holy Rune over onto Gremio earlier, it would have been lost right here. (Actually that wouldn't have been too terrible since I managed to get a second one to drop on my way back from Mt. Seifu. Score!)

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko124.jpg
Pahn returns with the Medicine. And by "Medicine" I mean "a bunch of goddamn guards."

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko125.jpg
At least he has a good reason! He's a suck-up! Actually, this is a nice example of what sets Suikoden aside from, oh, every other RPG ever. In any other game Pahn would have been branded a traitor and we'd have to spend the rest of the adventure fighting him, or perhaps resolving some subplot involving mind control or a hostage situation. Not here, though; while Suikoden does have good guys and bad guys, it does a good job putting a lot of grey in between them. The villains often have positive character traits and the heroes often have to do shady or underhanded things (as we'll soon see). The story isn't a struggle of good vs. evil, but of two opposing sides of a conflict. Pahn didn't report Ted because he hates Ted (although that might have been part of it) but because he has a duty to Teo and he wants to see it upheld. When he returns to us later it won't be because he's had a change of heart or because he's rationalized his actions differently, but because... well, I'll save that part for later I guess.

tl;dr: Don't hate Pahn. He's an awesome guy.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko126.jpg
Here's one of those weird asides I mentioned in the last update. Ted, Gremio and Cleo have a six-hour conversation here while the guards are standing less than three feet away.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko127.jpg
And the hero from Suikoden 4 was all like =(.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko128.jpg
○×∆□☆ and his cronies escape through the kitchen window out into the rain. And now they look suspicious!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko129.jpg
Marie the helpful inkeeper lets ○×∆□☆, Gremio and Cleo hide out in her attic. Gremio warns ○×∆□☆ not to go running around (since they're trying to hide, and all) but...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko130.jpg
...of course ○×∆□☆ doesn't listen. So now we have to murder these idiot Imperial guys right here in the inn!

Brickroad
07-26-2008, 02:55 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko131.jpg
Or not, because a hideous bear-shaped man swoops in to our rescue! He quickly points out some spurious logic that gets us off the hook, and offers to escort us from the premises out of the goodness of his heart.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko132.jpg
And also to skip out on his check. What a guy!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko133.jpg
Unfortunately he's the only friendly face in Gregminster right now, and since he knows how to slip out of some tight spots, maybe he can get us out of Gregminster.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko134.jpg
Of course, he agrees, as long as there's something in it for him.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/viktor.gif005/108: Viktor
Viktor is a very powerful front-line fighter, which is good since he's literally hot-glued to your party for almost the entire game. His usefulness wanes later in the game when his lack of rune affinity becomes more of a hinderance, but there's nothing you can do about it anyway except just slap your Holy Rune on him, grin and bear it. His flaws are more prominent in Suikoden 2 where each character can equip multiple runes. There's really nothing wrong with having a pure brute-strength character on hand, it's just why would you need one when there are plenty of strong characters who can also use runes? I feel much the same way about the pure magician characters I'll recruit later on.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko135.jpg
Here's one of the 30,000 little things Suikoden gets wrong that Suikoden 2 fixes and gets right: after new people are assigned to your party, you have to remember to go into the menu and swap their positions around. If I didn't do this, Viktor would be sitting in the back row unable to hit anything. In Suikoden 2 the game automatically throws the formation screen at you after assigning someone new to the party.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko136.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko137.jpg
Viktor's master plan for sneaking us out of Gregminster is to get the guard to step away from the city gates for a few minutes. Well okay! Whatever works!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko138.jpg
A little bribery goes a long way! Here Viktor launches into a tirade about how corrupt and horrid the Empire is, and how that's a bad thing even though exploiting that corruption allowed him to escape the town. Pretty basic RPG exposition stuff, but Cleo's response to it is just priceless:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko139.jpg

Brickroad
07-26-2008, 02:57 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko140.jpg
...and of course Viktor's condemnations of the Empire being full of liars and thieves is just him being a big ol' ugly hypocrite. Oh, Viktor!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko141.jpg
A promise is a promise, so we head off to Lenankamp to meet Viktor's friend. Of course as soon as we get there he promptly abandons us. Also note: tea != BOOZE. Just sayin'.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko142.jpg
Cleo admits to being a dirty whore.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko143.jpg
In most RPGs where the plot requires you to stay at the inn the game comes up with some contrivance that enables you to stay there free of charge. Not Suikoden! This cutscene comes courtesy of ○×∆□☆'s own nickel. The room doesn't have a shower, but it does have more Imperial guards crashing down the door as well as a complimentary breakfast.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko144.jpg
Thankfully we just happen to be staying in the room that leads down to a secret underground base!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko145.jpg
This is Odessa Silverberg, leader of the Liberation Army. Their schtick is tearing down the corrupt Empire and building a corrupt Republic in its place. Unfortunately the entire army is made up of these five people.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko146.jpg
Which is where Viktor, army recruiter to the stars, comes in!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko147.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko149.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko148.jpg
○×∆□☆ and Cleo are pretty keen on the idea of dropping the Empire in the shitter, but Odessa's boyfriend Flik thinks five people is enough. Our membership is vetoed and we are politely asked to get the hell out once things blow over outside.

Brickroad
07-26-2008, 02:59 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko150.jpg
Man, we just can't take ten steps in any direction without falling over some random wounded guy.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko151.jpg
Um... whoops. We had nothing to do with this! We swear!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko152.jpg
...god dammit, ○×∆□☆, keep your mouth shut.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko153.jpg
Stomping on RPG conventions continues as Suikoden gives us a mission to go and undo the last mission we did! We're outside the box here, people.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko154.jpg
Back at Grady's mansion, we are threatened by Generic Green Shirt Guy.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko155.jpg
Gremio, it is a three-foot-high wooden fence. You have a hatchet. Do you want I should draw you a diagram?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko156.jpg
Seriously guys, we could have just hopped the fence. What is wrong with you people?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko157.jpg
Inside the mansion we have to fight about a hundred of these guys. Before the game is over we will have killed thousands of them.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko158.jpg
Ha ha! Take that, treasure box! The day is mine!

...actually you kind of sucked, treasure box! All that build-up for nothing.

Brickroad
07-26-2008, 03:01 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko159.jpg
Sydonia is taking his captivity in stride.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko160.jpg
Cleo is pretty gung-ho about this whole rebel idea. I can dig it.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko161.jpg
After getting Varkas down, Sydonia just hops off his post and teleports behind us. Sydonia's explanation is that he couldn't escape alone. Why he couldn't have untied Varkas after freeing himself is a subject that is never adequately explored.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko162.jpg
No boss fight; Grady is just a pissant, after all. After Varkas and Sydonia threaten all kinds of mutilation on him he runs off swearing nonspecific revenge.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko163.jpg
"Odessa, the guy we beat up in less than two rounds after pummeling every single one of his bandits to a fine paste and who couldn't escape from some guy's backyard says you can count on him if you need his help."

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko164.jpg
Gee Vik, I dunno. I kind of feel like you should buy me dinner, first.

So that's that! Our first mission as kinda-sorta members of the Liberation Army. Cleo and ○×∆□☆ are pretty much over being Kraze's lapdogs, but Gremio still holds out hope that he can get back to boot-kissing someday. What's more, we now have an evil witch after us and ○×∆□☆'s best friend died horribly. On the plus side he's got a cursed rune and lives in a sewer with a pack of vagrants!

Here's (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2) the updated star list, now with 120% more Viktor.

Pajaro Pete
07-26-2008, 03:32 PM
After getting Varkas down, Sydonia just hops off his post and teleports behind us. Sydonia's explanation is that he couldn't escape alone. Why he couldn't have untied Varkas after freeing himself is a subject that is never adequately explored.

Dude now you're just playing stupid. How exactly do you think they're supposed to get past The Fence? Sydonia can do magic tricks, but is it enough to surpass the awesome might of The Fence? Varkas uses an axe like Gremio, so he's clearly powerless in the face of The Fence. What was he supposed to do, go through the mansion and fight off the legions of soldiers that had never been able to defeat him at his hideout?

fvisker
07-26-2008, 06:52 PM
Reading this thread makes me want to bust out a Suikoden run also. I have both of the games (and have the ROMs too).

I also have both strategy guides for the games and wonder if I can use the emulator for taking the 108 Star saved data into the 2nd game if I complete the 1st.

I haven't played through the Clive storyline though in the 2nd, but it does seem interesting.

I also haven't played III, IV, V or Tactics....although I may be more inclined if I do go back and play the originals.

shivam
07-26-2008, 06:55 PM
three is good, five is good, sure wish they'd someday make a 4th game in the series.

Malefor
07-26-2008, 08:24 PM
three is good, five is good, sure wish they'd someday make a 4th game in the series.

Five is good? I recall the reviews at the time being pretty harsh, but I've never played it, so I'm willing to bow to the collective wisdom of Talking Time.

And yeah, 4 was trash.

O..O~
07-26-2008, 09:31 PM
I remember playing this when I was in my early teens and constantly being confused by cleo's sexuality. Then I remembered watching snl and the horrible "its pat!" sketches and just decided that cleo's gender was suppose to be a running joke.

shivam
07-26-2008, 09:54 PM
you have to mean gremio, cause cleo's as clear a woman as you can get.

Rosencrantz
07-26-2008, 09:58 PM
Five is good? I recall the reviews at the time being pretty harsh, but I've never played it, so I'm willing to bow to the collective wisdom of Talking Time.

And yeah, 4 was trash.

As a long-time fan of the Suikoden series who thinks that 3 worked better as a graphic novel and 4... had some pretty good music, I think that 5 was really good. Not Suikoden 2 good, but that's a high standard.

McDohl
07-26-2008, 11:02 PM
And yeah, 4 was trash.

4 gets trashed on way too much. It's a fantastic game, with arguably the best star lineup since 1.

After the melodramatic, pretentious and downright awful crap that was Suikoden 3, 4 was a highly welcomed addition to the series and a breath of fresh air.

shivam
07-26-2008, 11:07 PM
uh.

you're wrong.

the ocean, the rune cannons, the fact that the final boss was a tree, the stupid cat people, the goddamned boat, the worst main character in the entire series...i can go on and on.

just about all 4 had going was the great soundtrack.

three, on the other hand was awesome.

McDohl
07-26-2008, 11:44 PM
uh.

you're wrong.

Well, no, I'm right. http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/images/icons/icon6.gif

the ocean, the rune cannons, the fact that the final boss was a tree, the stupid cat people, the goddamned boat, the worst main character in the entire series...i can go on and on.

just about all 4 had going was the great soundtrack.

"The ocean" and "The goddamned boat" are unique to the series. And while that in of itself doesn't necessarily make it good, it does break the typical Suikoden stereotypes that wind up plaguing the rest of the series.

I don't see what the issue is with rune cannons. If you mean their very existence, I, uh, don't even know what to say to that. I'll need more to go on.

The final boss being a tree is no more arbitrary than a giant magical rune monster thing that every other boss is. It's pretty par for the course, if you ask me. While I submit it wasn't explained very well, and Graham Cray is kind of shallow as a villain, that in of itself doesn't drag the whole game down.

As for the main character, I thought he was kind of neat myself. He's just as mute as the other heroes in the series, but he definitely handles himself better than the Suikoden II hero and the Trifecta Twits in Suikoden III.

But, what ultimately makes Suikoden IV so great is its inability to take itself seriously. The nekobolds may be annoying, but they're supposed to be annoying. Lino en Kuldes is completely silly, right down to his Hawaiian shirt, but that's the point.

three, on the other hand was awesome.

Nah.

The biggest problem with 3 is the buddy system makes the game completely unplayable. Such a ridiculous, tedious beast turns away players. And if people aren't playing a game, that's a big issue.

But even if you forgive the buddy system (which a lot seem to do), you're still stuck with 3 completely unlikable (not to mention stereotypical) jRPG heroes. You've got the "I'm too cool for school, here's my witty line" Geddoe, the "Nobody understands my burden, I'm Cecil with tits!" Chris, and "You are all assholes and jerks and I am angry!" Hugo. Not to mention they're all surrounded by equally unlikable, paper-thin personalities. There's no cohesion or sense around any of them, and the fact that they make up teams is completely nonsensical. Suikoden is ultimately about the camaraderie, and in Suikoden 3 it makes absolutely no sense at all.

The story is completely pretentious and even campy at times. Oh Franz! I hope you and your girlfriend are okay as you ride... your giant insect? Luc is about as villainous as Sephiroth -- pissed at the world, so he wants to destroy it. Clever. Am I really supposed to take this seriously?

And the gameplay and music suck, but those are ultimately incidental; because even if they were out of this world, it could not save the giant black hole of suck that is Suikoden 3.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.[/DM]

shivam
07-26-2008, 11:57 PM
I fucking LOVE hugo. The very idea that there is a dark skinned hero in a jrpg blows my mind.

Also, i love how the game made you see the scenes from both chris and hugo's side, without editorial comment, allowing the player to come to their own conclusion.

I loved the six visions of the story, i loved how the parties came together, i think the plains theme is the best track in suikoden, i loved the ducks and the castle.

And jesus, the music in suiko three blows my mind. I also love luc as villain and the whole elemental runes thing, and the actual progression of story line.

Suiko 4, with the boat. that the boat moved so slowly was only annoying; that there was a random fucking encounter every three clicks was untenable. The islands were incredibly far apart, as well, and you had no idea where to go unless you were incredibly patient.

Suiko 1-3 told great and epic stories. in 1, it was the nature of freedom vs the State; two was the rift between two friends so close as to be brothers; three was complex geopolitics as distilled into three distinct lands. What did 4 have? Sure, the seed for a good tale was there, but it gave rise to a stunted growth.

The game was dark. Not in tone, but in color. And the fact that they wasted the tactics game in this world instead of in the world of suiko 1-3 is a shame.

What really killed it for me, though, was the fact that suiko 4, with the sole exception of ted, had not a damned thing to do with the other three. Suikoden is a linked series with a linear time progression and a ever moving story. Suiko 4 goes back in time, which is fine, but doesn't add to the mythology of the world at all. Suiko 5, at least, filled in a ton of backstory on characters like killey and lorelai and georges.

Suiko 4 also limited you to 4 people. FOUR PEOPLE. in a game of 70 odd playable characters, what the fuck was that about? moreover, 6 people parties is a suiko hallmark.

And the ship to ship tactical battles were super lame.

Yes, there were a few cool characters, among them the aforementioned Lino en Kuldes, but out of a cast that large, you're bound to get one or two right.

At the end of the day, it just didn't feel like a suikoden game, and that was a damned shame.

(and lest you think i'm hating unfairly, i just want to say that my suikoden branded ipod has the rune of punishment inscribed on it)

Malefor
07-27-2008, 12:31 AM
"The ocean" and "The goddamned boat" are unique to the series. And while that in of itself doesn't necessarily make it good, it does break the typical Suikoden stereotypes that wind up plaguing the rest of the series.

The problem with the ocean and the goddamned boat - okay, one of the problems, as I'm sure I've forgotten some in the attempt to expunge all memories of Suikoden IV from my brain - was that for hours and hours (before you get Viki so you can teleport), going anywhere new is pure agony, as you run into random encounters seemingly every few feet in the featureless ocean. And god help you if you get lost and go to the wrong island. The hostility towards players displayed by that mechanic alone should've made me quit in disgust.

Also, while I wasn't in love with the buddy system, it was miles better than the FF-lite 4 person party in Suiko IV. Any game which offers you 108 different characters needs to let you use more than 4 in your party.

Edit: ...and Shivam beat me to it. But at least I'm hating in good company.

Torgo
07-27-2008, 01:32 AM
I only played Suiko2 and about half of the original, but I never really tried the series after that. The thing I loved most about Suiko2 was that it was, for all intents a purposes, a real direct sequel, something nearly unheard of in rpgs. I knew that Suiko2 was something special when I met Flik and Viktor not fifteen minutes into the game.

Whatever may be said of the III-V, the first two are two of the best games ever.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 01:51 AM
Suikoden 3 isn't as bad as McDohl says, and Suikoden 4 isn't as bad as shivam says. Both games get way more wrong than they get right, and suck in their own special and unique ways. =)

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko165.jpg
Phew! Glad to hear it. Short game, eh guys?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko166.jpg
You bet, Cleo! It slices, it dices, it makes julienne fries! Actually what's going on here is that the Liberation Army got their hands on some blueprints for a miracle weapon called a fire spear...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko167.jpg
...yes, thank you Sanchez. Anyway Odessa and her men are planning ahead; when it's time to meet the Imperials head-on, they hope to use this fire spear doohickey to give them an advantage. They need to pass the blueprint off to someone from the Liberation's secret factory, though, and Odessa wants ○×∆□☆ to take care of this for her. There's some back and forth as to whether or not ○×∆□☆ should be the one to handle it; Gremio finds the idea of betraying the Empire abhorrent, and Flik doesn't think the army is big enough for two hot-headed upstart little punks.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko168.jpg
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○×∆□☆ seems to like the idea, though, and agrees to the mission.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko170.jpg
Yes, Gremio, that's the goddamned idea.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko171.jpg
Hey, yeah, I think I know the place!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko172.jpg
When Odessa reveals her intent to come along and see this thing done of course her boyfriend wants to come too. She tells him to stay behind and protect the Liberation headquarters.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko173.jpg
Nobody thinks to suggest Viktor stay behind and hold down the fort so Flik can come along and see how awesome and trustworthy ○×∆□☆ is for himself.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko174.jpg
By the way, this big guy standing here has been staying out of the conversations because he's antisocial as all crap. The best Humphrey scene is in Suikoden 2 where you are introduced to someone as "Sir Humphrey's friends" and his immediate probably-not-joking response is "Humphrey has friends?"

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 01:53 AM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko175.jpg
Yep, I remember this place alright!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko176.jpg
Halfway up we get stopped by the sketchiest dude this side of Kraze, who invites us into his mountain hovel to put our feet up.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko177.jpg
If you say you want to keep going, everyone just kind of abandons you out in the cold.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko178.jpg
Bitch, I done scaled this mountain myself like six quests ago. Ain't nothin' up here that can scare me. Sheesh.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko179.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko180.jpg
Oh boy, I can't wait! Of course there's no way to get out of drinking the creepy mountain man's bitter poisoned tea, and...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko181.jpg
...we all freakin' fall for it. Is it any wonder why the Liberation Army is a half dozen people strong and operates out of a sewer?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko182.jpg
Hey! I won that money FAIR AND SQUARE by rigging an androgynous vagrant's cup game in my favor!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko183.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko184.jpg
Fortunately for us Ledon's boss shows up, recognizes Odessa, and threatens to decapitate him unless he brews up an antidote. Which he does in short order, presumably because it's damn hard to make poisoned tea without a head.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 01:55 AM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko185.jpg
Odessa is pretty quick to forgive the attempt on her life. Nobody asked ○×∆□☆ but he would have voted for castrating Ledon and making him wear his testicles like a little hat.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko186.jpg
To make up for the fact that he tried to murder us and steal all our worldly possessions, Ledon lets us stay at his inn for the night. During our stay Kessler pours his heart out to ○×∆□☆ about how much he loves Odessa and how she's doing the great things most people only think about doing. Soon enough everyone wakes up and Ledon lets us out into the second half of Mt. Tigerwolf.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko187.jpg
Great Thing About Suikoden #658: if possible, the game will resolve more than one normal attack at a time, speeding up battles considerably. When you've got six combatants standing on either side of the field this feature is practically a necessity.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko188.jpg
Now that I've got some buddies with me, I can pick up the rest of the treasures I had to pass up earlier. I have no idea what this rune does (I think it's a special attack?), so it's just gonna get sold unless one of you cats has a burning desire to see it in action.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko189.jpg
Gremio isn't kidding about Sarady being a small town. For serious we can see pretty much all of it in this screenshot.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko190.jpg
Um, I was just here like a week ago. Your memory sucks, dude.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 01:56 AM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko192.jpg
Universal Suikoden axiom: whenever the game makes you stay the night somewhere, you are in for a heart-to-heart with someone. Odessa gets all sappy here about how much responsibility she carries and how she's not sure she can live up to the expectations everyone has laid out for her. Then she changes the subject and starts talking about ○×∆□☆'s eyes. Fortunately before she gets to the part where her daddy never hugged her growing up, a ninja shows up.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko193.jpg
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It seems to be some kind of Liberation Army code. "The owl croons at midnight." "Copy that. The underwear is back in the drawer. I repeat: we've put the underwear back in the drawer. It is folded."

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko197.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko198.jpg
Just the slightest implication that ○×∆□☆ might have had relations with a lady terrifies Gremio to the point where he chokes on his own words.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 01:59 AM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko199.jpg
The game makes us march all the way back to Lenankamp manually (making it my fourth trek through Mt. Tigerwolf), and when we get back we find the place has been raided. None of our Liberation friends are here, and instead of cautiously investigating the scene Odessa rushes off into the hideout alone...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko200.jpg
...and gets into trouble, of course.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko201.jpg
You heard right, girls: women can't be leaders. PASS IT ON.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko202.jpg
Odessa has two dying requests. The first is to deliver an earring to a man she knows, Mathiu, in the town of Seika to our south. The second is to pitch her corpse into the "stream" flowing underneath Lenankamp. Viktor refuses to believe she's dying in the first place, and Gremio is appalled that Odessa wants her corpse desecrated, but her sick plot actually makes sense:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko204.jpg
And that's something else we all love about Suikoden. This game does NOT pull punches. There is no deus ex machina to swoop in and save Odessa, no subquest to bring her back to life. She dies here in the sewer at the hands of some random Imperial soldier, not to a hated villain I'll face off against in the endgame. She passes away before a group of total strangers, not in the arms of her lover. Then, to top things off, she wants her body discarded like trash because that's the only way her dreams will ever come to fruition. This is a pretty cold scene, very uncharacteristic of jRPGs. First time I played this game the only heroes I'd ever seen die in my RPGs had been Aeris and Crono; the former getting major screen time and a huge plot thread, and the latter being reversible. Coming off those Odessa's death felt like a punch in the gut.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko205.jpg
No time to mourn, we have to get on with our life. Looks like we've gotta break through a fortress in order to find this Mathiu fella. Before that though...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko206.jpg
Now that ○×∆□☆'s rune has eaten a soul (Odessa's) it levels up, giving him access to L1 Soul Eater magic. This makes the various storyline deaths in Suikoden even more horrifying; anyone close to ○×∆□☆ who dies becomes consumed by his rune and adds to his power. Since magic runes have four levels in the Suikoverse, that means we've got three more gutwrenching death scenes to watch, complete with the knowledge that those poor bastards get to be gobbled up by the magic tattoo on ○×∆□☆'s hand.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 02:00 AM
This is the end of the prologue; once I go thorugh this fortress I won't be able to return to the Imperial region of the world until the endgame. This means I can't visit Gregminster, Rockland, Sarady or either of the mountains for a long time. I've still got about 70k bits, so no need to make a withdrawal at the Marco ATM.

Every Suikoden game has a prologue like this, a few missions to run before you get into the real meat of the game. I think Suikoden 1 gets this length just right: a few missions as Imperials, a few missions on the run, a little bit of Soul Eater plot, a little bit of Liberation Army plot, and boom, on with the game. You can tell when you're playing the game "for real" because you've recruited your tactician and getting missions from him instead of just taking whatever comes. Once I meet up with Mathiu I will begin building my army in earnest, but first I have to get through Kwaba somehow. Viktor of course has a brilliant plan:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko207.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko208.jpg
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Hey peanut gallery!
This is possibly the most important decision we will ever make in the entire game. Don't screw this one up, guys.

No change in the star list, but here it is (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2) anyway. Pretty soon we'll have our castle and will be filling it up like crazy.

Alixsar
07-27-2008, 02:49 AM
Schtolteheim Reinbach IV. That is the only correct answer.

Ranting Time!

Suikoden IV is absolute garbage. The first few hours showed some real promise but things go downhill pretty damn quickly. There's not one but two underdeveloped villains (Troy and Graham Cray), a generic plot that's mired in a 1990-quality localization, a number of gameplay features that were removed from SIII (why can't I equip my entire army at my shopkeepers like I could in SIII?), a metric fuck-ton of plot threads that are never resolved, two metric fucktons of scenes that simply don't make sense, and a lot of, quite frankly, boring scenes/characters. Snowe has to be the worst character in the history of Suikoden. They spend a lot of time focusing on him, and for what? He's incredibly shallow and downright boring. "Oh, I'm a rich kid and I wish I had my way, but Main made me look stupid! Now I'll become a pirate to get my revenge! Oh no, I lost again! I guess you'd better find me floating on a log 10 hours from now!" ARGH

To make matters even worse, the game has ONE dungeon. ONE. Not two; ONE. The rest of the time you're fighting enemies in the game is in a linear area that just happens to have random encounters. There's also the aforementioned ridiculous encounter rate/slow movement speed on the world map and awful tactical battles. This is not how you make an RPG. This is how you artificially lengthen a terrible game.

In defense of Suikoden IV: Ted. And Schtolteheim Reinbach III. And the music is alright. But that's it!

Suikoden V is a lot better, but it suffers from different problems. Probably the biggest problems are that the game has a stupidly high encounter rate and ridiculous standards for recruiting party members.

tl;dr: Suikoden III is the best Suikoden, but Suikoden II isn't far behind.

Malefor
07-27-2008, 03:01 AM
Schtolteheim Reinbach IV. That is the only correct answer.

This.

Snowe has to be the worst character in the history of Suikoden. They spend a lot of time focusing on him, and for what? He's incredibly shallow and downright boring. "Oh, I'm a rich kid and I wish I had my way, but Main made me look stupid! Now I'll become a pirate to get my revenge! Oh no, I lost again! I guess you'd better find me floating on a log 10 hours from now!"

I... had somehow managed to forget this. I take back every mean thing I said about the ducks.

Snowe is the epitome of the useless-ass star you collect just for the sake of completeness.

Torgo
07-27-2008, 03:07 AM
Reinbach IV, of course.

Octopus Prime
07-27-2008, 04:38 AM
In all the myriad* of times I have played this game, each time** did I named McDohl "Schtolteheim Reinbach IV". I did this every time*** and you will this time as well.

*Once
**Once
***Again, once.

kaisel
07-27-2008, 07:28 AM
Schtolteheim Reinbach IV is the only way to go. Despite the fact that my friends and I haven't touched a Suikoden game after 3 (and I never beat 2 or 3 because of being vastly underleveled) we still occasionally crack jokes about that name. Also we have a bit of a joke about the bitter tea, since we were watching a friend play it, and he chose the "not if it's bitter" choice a bunch of times to be a smartass, which turned into a bit of an injoke. So I'll always love the Suikoden games because of that.

McDohl
07-27-2008, 07:54 AM
This is possibly the most important decision we will ever make in the entire game. Don't screw this one up, guys.

Schtolteheim Reinbach IV. Always.

Suikoden IV is absolute garbage. The first few hours showed some real promise but things go downhill pretty damn quickly. There's not one but two underdeveloped villains (Troy and Graham Cray), a generic plot that's mired in a 1990-quality localization, a number of gameplay features that were removed from SIII (why can't I equip my entire army at my shopkeepers like I could in SIII?), a metric fuck-ton of plot threads that are never resolved, two metric fucktons of scenes that simply don't make sense, and a lot of, quite frankly, boring scenes/characters.

In terms of story and characters, simplicity in of itself is not a vice. The best things about Suikoden are often simplistic in nature.

Snowe has to be the worst character in the history of Suikoden. They spend a lot of time focusing on him, and for what? He's incredibly shallow and downright boring. "Oh, I'm a rich kid and I wish I had my way, but Main made me look stupid! Now I'll become a pirate to get my revenge! Oh no, I lost again! I guess you'd better find me floating on a log 10 hours from now!" ARGH.

But isn't that really supposed to be the point of Snowe?

Snowe is, in all aspects, a character you're supposed to hate. He's rich, spoiled, whiny, snively, betrays the hero, and should be left for dead.

That's why, once you remove yourself from that and look at it, he's a brilliant character. He's exactly what he's supposed to be. Which is why you get to decide if you forgive Snowe or not.

S4 must be doing something right if he's invoking that kind of emotional reaction.

Kirin
07-27-2008, 10:20 AM
Yes, obviously Reinbach IV.

And wow. I don't think I'm gonna fill the thread with more III/IV discussion here, since I already wrote a Gamespite article about all the things I love about III, and I've got a draft almost ready of all the things I hate about IV, so it's kind of obvious where I stand. As a preview, though, it's not the boats or nekobolds or killer tree or even Snowe that bother me in IV... kind of everything else, though.

Actually I may want to do some editing based on this discussion. Hmm.

Elfir
07-27-2008, 10:36 AM
I haven't played the Suikodens past 3 so I picked up a copy of 4 I saw in my Gamestop a couple months ago. Haven't touched it yet. Now I'm curious though. :p

I liked 3 a lot but unlike the first two it didn't feel like there was any pressing need to go star hunting. So I'd be past the Point Of No Return and be like.. but I've got 80-something stars?

Coinspinner
07-27-2008, 11:18 AM
Schtolteheim Reinbach IV. Always.

By the way, this big guy standing here has been staying out of the conversations because he's antisocial as all crap. The best Humphrey scene is in Suikoden 2 where you are introduced to someone as "Sir Humphrey's friends" and his immediate probably-not-joking response is "Humphrey has friends?"

I always use Humphrey. He can solo Luca Blight. Well, that's in the next game, but yeah.

He can solo Luca Blight.

Elfir
07-27-2008, 11:19 AM
I always use Humphrey. He can solo Luca Blight.

No one solos Luca Blight. It's 300+ on 1!! And that's why he is awesomeness incarnate :3

Dynastic Bird
07-27-2008, 12:01 PM
...I'm just curious. Does Odessa still die if you don't have the Soul Eater equipped?

shivam
07-27-2008, 12:05 PM
you can't not have the soul eater equipped.

Odin
07-27-2008, 03:37 PM
Man this makes me want to play Suikoden again! Anyway, Schtolteheim Reinbach IV is THE choice. I don't see why you stopped and asked anything, Brick - the game didn't give you options to choose from! Schtolteheim Reinbach IV.

It's been fun so far. I'll chime in when I can.

Pajaro Pete
07-27-2008, 04:06 PM
If I were Cleo, I'd be pretty upset that the Soul Eater gets to consume Odessa instead of her. I mean, if Odessa counts as someone close to our Hero, then surely he should be able to toss some of the more random, useless Stars of Destiny under a bus to level it up.

Say, does the game make any mention of her death unlocking Deadly Fingertips? I was under the impression it was just suddenly available. It's actually a nice touch like that, because the player doesn't exactly realize that's what caused it to unlock.

Elfir
07-27-2008, 04:19 PM
Say, does the game make any mention of her death unlocking Deadly Fingertips? I was under the impression it was just suddenly available. It's actually a nice touch like that, because the player doesn't exactly realize that's what caused it to unlock.

Pretty sure it doesn't tell you at all. I don't think I understood it until later on at least.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 04:58 PM
You get a message telling you when the Soul Eater goes up to L4, and the epilogue contains a clue to the correlation between character deaths and the Soul Eater powering up. It was probably my third playthrough before I put it together completely, and the revelation horrified me. I suddenly felt bad about using the rune.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko212.jpg
Let's see if our friends like ○×∆□☆'s fake name as much as you guys did!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko213.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko214.jpg
Yeesh, tough crowd.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko215.jpg
After you, Schabibblin Rineypants III!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko216.jpg
Kwaba is held by Ain Gide, one of the six Imperial Generals, and the fear is that he knows ○×∆□☆'s face well enough to identify him on sight. ○×∆□☆ attempts to thwart this by walking backwards through the checkpoint, but Ain Gide refuses to be fooled.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko217.jpg
Fortunately Gremio springs into action, pretending(?) to be angry at ○×∆□☆ for always causing trouble, and even offering to lop off his head right there and then. Brilliant performance? Or years of pent up manservant rage bubbling up? With Gremio, it's impossible to tell.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko218.jpg
What's great about this line is that ○×∆□☆ is wearing the same thing he wore back when he was Kraze's lackey in Imperial service.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko219.jpg
This is either an indication that Ain Gide wasn't fooled at all and is just letting me go anyway (perhaps because of his friendship with Teo), or it's a reference to ○×∆□☆ supposedly being Scholablabba Reinenheimen III's son. Since I've never NOT picked Schklockayazza Ribbenflabben IV as my fake name I've never had the chance to find out, really. And since I've saved over this game already, now I never will.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 04:59 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko220.jpg
Outside, Gremio throws himself at ○×∆□☆'s mercy.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko221.jpg
○×∆□☆ has none.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko222.jpg
And so Gremio kills himself right here outside Kwaba, and now I can't get all 108 stars. Say, who's that guy standing against the wall there?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko223.jpg
It's Chandler! I get the funny feeling that someday very soon his dream will come true. Not sure why, just something my gut, you know?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko224.jpg
The walk from Kwaba to Seika is a long and arduous one, as you can see.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko225.jpg
One chore you have to take care of upon finding a new town (and, as far as the game is concerned, Seika is the "first" town) is visit all the shops, even if you don't intend to buy anything. Just browsing in a shop adds that shop's inventory to the ones at your (eventual) castle. As a result, everything you can possibly buy in the game ends up right in your HQ. Later games in the series counteract this a bit by adding Rare Finds to shops; randomly picked items that show up in a separate menu in limited quantities, which can't be added to your own shops.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 05:01 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko226.jpg
This is Mathiu's response to the question "Hey, do you know where Mathiu lives?" The game doesn't even attempt to hide his identity from you.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko227.jpg
Mathiu's a teacher here in town. He also may or may not be a child molester. What you have to do is ask Mathiu where he lives, visit his house and talk to his students, then go back and strike up a second conversation with him. The game makes you do this because it hates you.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko228.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko229.jpg
Well, one of them anyway. You don't ever see it onscreen but presumably we granted her other request too and chucked her in the drink.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko230.jpg
However, Mathiu wants nothing to do with any of this madness. Even after we follow him back up to his house he gives us the coldest damn shoulder I've ever seen.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko231.jpg
○×∆□☆ and the gang stand around outside discussing what they should do next when a bunch of Imperials barge in to wreck up the place. I have no idea why they keep representing Imperial soldiers with these green shirt guys, it's not like there aren't already generic soldier sprites in the game.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko232.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko233.jpg
Observation the first: the Banaar Mines are another location that is mentioned but never visited, giving the impression that the Suikoden world is a lot larger than it really is. I get the sneaking suspicion that "Banaar" is later translated as "Banner" instead; Banner is a tiny river village in the far south of the Suikoden 2 world, which puts it off the map to the far north in Suikoden 1. The Banner Badlands are a huge expanse of forest between the Scarlet Moon Empire and the Jowston(e) City-State(s), something of a no-man's land, and there's nothing out there except a ninja village and some giant insects. It would be the perfect spot to put an intensely deadly mining operation.

Observation the second: Mathiu is a military tactician, and he is damn good. So good, in fact, that General Kasim Hazil would subject small children to deportation and hard labor just to get Mathiu on his side. All the more reason for us to get him first.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko235.jpg
Of course ○×∆□☆ wants to throw down, which causes Cleo to complain a little. What, time for another shower already?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko236.jpg
I think this is my favorite choice in the game. I love how you have the option of "we're rebels! graaah!" and "we're the good guys!". The outcome is the same either way, but they both taste different. I like the second option; we never officially joined the Liberation in the first place, and even if we had it's not like it's still around at this point. Thus: we're just random good guys and we're going to kick your asses for threatening kids.

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 05:02 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko237.jpg
You could sneeze and kill these guys. There are hard(ish) bosses in this game, I promise... we'll see one in the next update.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko238.jpg
/helenlovejoy

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko239.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko240.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko241.jpg
With that dirty business behind us, Mathiu invites us inside and we can talk shop. I'm not sure if "military surgeon" is an acceptable term for "strategist" or if it's just Konami's translators falling asleep on the job. In any case, here's the rub: Mathiu was involved in the Kalekka incident some years ago, where he caused countless deaths in order to win a victory for the Emperor. He didn't want any more bloodshed on his hands so he retired here to teach school instead. Of course now the Empire needs his services again and is willing to do unspeakable things to get at him, so he decides to throw in with us instead. I used to think that this was a "lesser of two evils" choice on his part, but it does sound more like he firmly believes in Odessa's ideals and just didn't have the scrote to act on them until now. In any case, he declines the earring Odessa gave us for him, pointing out that the Liberation Army's leader should keep it instead.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko242.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko243.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko244.jpg
Booya. Now we have a commander (○×∆□☆), a strategist, and... uh... three soldiers. It's a start! Viva La Revolution!

Brickroad
07-27-2008, 05:06 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/mathiu.gif006/108: Mathiu Silverberg
Mathiu is the Liberation Army's chief military tactician, and our first NPC recruit. He's Odessa's brother, and he shares the Silverberg family trait of being awesome at battle tactics. Of the five Suikoden games, three of your tacticians are Silverbergs and one was directly trained (and subsequentially exiled) by one. Each one has a subtly different style, which isn't something you really notice unless you've played all the games a few times. Mathiu is calculating and detached, sometimes ruthless.

Okay guys, drumroll please...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko245.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko246.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko247.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko248.jpg
...there we go! Ladies and gentlemen, it is finally time to start playing Suikoden for real. Next up: getting a headquarters!

This (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2) is the last time I'll have to post the star list with such a tiny change to it; from now on we'll get at least a few new faces after each mission. We're starting to fill our blue section up at least!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko249.jpg

Tanto
07-27-2008, 05:15 PM
http://animeanonymous.com/stash/suiko/suiko249.jpg

I heard a comedian do a bit once about how he would have loved to be in Indiana Jones's class: His students would get a two- or three-month break every time the U.S. Government barged in to tell him that the Nazis were after the Spear of Destiny or whatnot. It's good to see that Mathiu is thinking ahead here.

Coinspinner
07-27-2008, 07:09 PM
No one solos Luca Blight. It's 300+ on 1!! And that's why he is awesomeness incarnate :3

I'm just saying... he could if he wanted to. :P

(And I've seen him do it, as much as the game allows it! Go-go Defense!)

Elfir
07-28-2008, 08:40 AM
http://animeanonymous.com/stash/suiko/mathiu.gif006/108: Mathiu Silverberg
Mathiu is the Liberation Army's chief military tactician, and our first NPC recruit. He's Odessa's brother, and he shares the Silverberg family trait of being awesome at battle tactics. Of the five Suikoden games, three of your tacticians are Silverbergs and one was directly trained (and subsequentially exiled) by one. Each one has a subtly different style, which isn't something you really notice unless you've played all the games a few times. Mathiu is calculating and detached, sometimes ruthless.


I guess you're just counting the chief strategist, not his obligatory two underlings? Finally figured out how the numbers work while obviously not counting Apple. :p

That last screenshot is priceless. I'd forgotten about that line.

Brickroad
07-28-2008, 08:50 AM
I guess you're just counting the chief strategist, not his obligatory two underlings? Finally figured out how the numbers work while obviously not counting Apple.

Right, just Mathiu, Shu, Caesar, Elenor and Lucretia. Although for a more complete list of Suikoden tacticians, yeah, you'd have to include Leon, Albert, Apple, Jowy, and a few others.

What's interesting is that even amongst the Silverbergs (Mathiu, Caesar, Elenor, Albert and Leon) there are some subtle and not-so-subtle differences in style. Leon, for example, aims to end wars as quickly as possible and damn the cost, since a swift resolution by either side is better for the population at large in the long term. It's pretty cool to see that while Leon is a "good guy" in the first game and a "bad guy" in the second, his approach to military tactics (or, at least, what little you can glean from the games) doesn't change a whit.

Of the strategists I think Elenor is my favorite character, as in I like her personality the best, but she is by far the worst tactician. Every other game includes scenes where the strategist puts some brilliant plan into action, allowing the army to topple impossible odds (Shu does it best, though). Elenor is the only one whose plans lead the heroes into the situation of being irrevocably fucked, and having to rely on an unforseen deus ex machina to save them.

In a hypothetical war where all the Suikoden strategists were in play, there's no doubt in my mind Shu would come out on top. It's hard to tell where the games end and the fanon begins with Suikoden sometimes, but we know he can beat Leon and nobody can beat Leon.

shivam
07-28-2008, 09:24 AM
Shu is the best, by far, but my nostalgia goes to Mathiu.

Elfir
07-28-2008, 09:27 AM
Shu is the best, by far, but my nostalgia goes to Mathiu.

I still like Apple even though she's not very good at it. Her apple-shaped head appeals.

Though my favorite for "stupid Suikoden names" is Stallion. Porn star elf!!

Brickroad
07-28-2008, 09:32 AM
Still on the subject of strategists:

My two favorite strategic moves in the entire series are both in Suikoden 2:

1) When Shu first joins up and explains how he's going to defend the fledgling castle from encroaching Highland forces. His explanation is very cool, and actually makes sense. Even Viktor comments "Wow! I feel like we can actually win now!" which is a nice change from the previous 10-12 hours of getting your ass kicked all over the map. And then the plan actually works. It just feels good.

2) Jowy's scheme to take Greenhill. If they ever make a post-Suiko3 game, I want to enlist Jowy as my strategist because holy shit.

fvisker
07-28-2008, 01:19 PM
Ok, so I started playing along with the thread here, and there is a headstone in Rockland that mentions Clive as well, from "A Woman Dying on the Streets"...precursor to Suikoden II?

Elfir
07-28-2008, 01:23 PM
Ok, so I started playing along with the thread here, and there is a headstone in Rockland that mentions Clive as well, from "A Woman Dying on the Streets"...precursor to Suikoden II?

That sounds familiar... Very likely to be from Elza faking her death. Pretty sure she did this at least once.

I might play along with this one but I won't start quite yet. Already got two games on my plate.

fvisker
07-28-2008, 02:09 PM
Here's the images:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/fvisker/PSD3D001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v619/fvisker/PSD3D002.jpg

shivam
07-28-2008, 02:17 PM
yes, that is linked to the clive arc.

kaisel
07-28-2008, 02:18 PM
Well, basically what happens if you take Clive: He looks at the tombstone and says something along the lines of "good try Elza, I know you're still alive" or something along those lines.

I thought it pretty cool that they included that little tidbit.

Pajaro Pete
07-28-2008, 02:35 PM
Apparently, they only bury people in Rockland and the Vampire Domain area, because I don't actually recall seeing Tombstones/Graves anywhere else in the game.

shivam
07-28-2008, 02:42 PM
the rest of them cremate folks. only barbarians put their dead in the ground.

Jeanie
07-28-2008, 02:43 PM
Yep and if you cremate them, there's no chance of them coming back as zombies either!

Falselogic
07-29-2008, 11:13 AM
How are you running suikoden? On your comp with psxe?

Brickroad
07-29-2008, 11:14 AM
How are you running suikoden? On your comp with psxe?

PS2 hooked up with a USB AV-in doohickey.

Brickroad
07-29-2008, 08:45 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko250.jpg
Mathiu wants us to go out in the middle of Lake Toran and commandeer the abandoned castle there. We're not going to swim out there of course, we're going to take a boat. South of Seika is this village, Kaku, which lies right on the water. We shouldn't have any problems finding someone to row us to a giant haunted castle, right?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko251.jpg
Well, good of you to man up and admit you're completely gutless, mate. Fortunately ○×∆□☆ likes reckless men, so this Tai Ho fella should be right up his alley. Also there was nothing sexual at all about that sentence.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko252.jpg
Searching this... uh... opium den for "Reckless Tai Ho" we instead run into "Camille the She-Devil", who promptly accosts "Pants-Previously-Not-Filled-With-Crap Gremio" and demands money. Hey, wait a minute...

http://www.scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko044.jpg
Hmm... looks like Gremio has run up a tab at this shop. I'm sure we'll never actually have to deal with it, though!

Cue trombone sounds!

Fortunately, we're still lah-ho-ded down with cash from the Marco ATM, so this shouldn't be a problem. Viktor steps up to settle the bill...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko253.jpg
Viktor that is a damn lie and you know it. Unless Gremio is more than 88k in the hole. Geez, just what kind of banquet did he throw, anyway? For that kind of dosh he better have had a stripper jump out of a cake and then bake a replacement cake out of which jumps another stripper.

In any case, Viktor is sure we're going to find a giant stack of treasure once we get out to the abandoned castle on the lake, and convinces Camille to tag along so she can collect. Rather than refuse and break Gremio's legs (which, let's face it, is what any of us would have done) she agrees.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/camille.gif007/108: Camille
Now, I've never actually used Camille outside of this one mission where she's forced into your group. My guess is she's pretty similar to Cleo, except with an M-range weapon and less runic ability. Also judging by the way she unhinges her jaw, I'm pretty sure she eats like a snake. Gremio is right to fear her.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko254.jpg
This shot is included for no reason other than to show you who Yam Koo is. So, uh... this is Yam Koo.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko255.jpg
"My life is a chip in your pile. Ante up!" ...or something.

Tai Ho is willing to boat us out to the castle if we bet every single bit we are carrying on a single dice game. There's a minimum bet of 1000 bits. So...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko256.jpg
...what say you let me run and save first, k?

Brickroad
07-29-2008, 08:52 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko257.jpg
Here's Chinchirorin, Suikoden's dice minigame. Eventually this is how we're going to solve all our money problems, but for right now we just need to win one game.

The Rules of Chinchirorin
Scoring works like this: you throw three dice. If two of the dice match, the third die is your score. So if you throw 3/3/4, you have four points. If you throw 6/6/1 you have one point. If you throw 5/3/2 you have no points. You throw the dice until you either have a score, have made three throws, or got a special throw.

There are a couple special throws. If you throw 1/2/3 your turn ends, you lose the hand and you pay double your bet. If you throw 1/1/1 you lose the hand and pay triple your bet. Throw 4/5/6 to win the hand and gain double your bet. Throw any other set of triples to win and gain triple your bet. That last one is called a STORM.

You lose if: your opponent throws a STORM or a 4/5/6 on his turn, you throw a 1/1/1 or 1/2/3 on your turn, one of your dice lands outside the cup (this isn't called anything in Suikoden 1, but it's a "piss" in Suikoden 2 and a "dead roll" in one of the later ones), or both players finish three rolls and your opponent has the higher score.

You win if: you throw a STORM or a 4/5/6 on your turn, your opponent throws a 1/1/1 or 1/2/3 on his, one of your opponent's dice land outside the cup, or you have the larger score after both players have thrown.

Why Chinchirorin is rigged in your favor: The way the game is structured TOTALLY benefits the player rather than the computer because your opponent always makes all three rolls first, and then you get yours. Winning by score almost NEVER happens; you're FAR more likely to see a special roll come up. And of the special rolls, 1/1/1 and 1/2/3 seem to be the most common. In other words, your opponent will often throw a losing roll before you even touch the dice, letting you win the round.

Okay. So Tai Ho wants me to put my entire purse (88k bits!) up against his 1000 bits, but if I win he'll take me to the castle. Good? Good.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko258.jpg
Crap, that's a good hand. A tie counts for nothing, but I still have six winning hands: any STORM, or 4/5/6.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko259.jpg
Hooray! Of course, if I had lost I would have just reloaded so I didn't have to wave good-bye to my fat wad. Later on I'll get a dude in my castle who sits right next door to a save point to play Chinchirorin with and who offers to double my bet every single time I win. First though I need to get that castle. So:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko260.jpg
And make it snappy!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko261.jpg
Everyone hops in Tai Ho's adorable little boat and we sail off to this giant rock outcropping with a hideous gaping hole in the side of it. Uh... home sweet home, I guess?

Alternate caption for this image:

o/~ Tai Ho! Tai Ho! It's off to the lake we go! *whistle whistle whistle whistle* Tai Ho! Tai Ho, Tai Ho, Tai Ho! o/~

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko262.jpg
After a brief discussion about whether or not we will actually find treasure here, Tai Ho chirps up that he wants to come with us mainly because he wants to see ghosts.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/taiho.gif008/108: Tai Ho
Tai Ho is a decent enough M-range fighter, but he has a curious inability to wear decent armor. Before delving into the castle I'm going to head back to town and outfit everyone, bringing my average defense score up to 80 or 90. Tai Ho's will still only be about 60. This isn't a big deal now because he can sit in the back row and still deal damage, but later on when my front line filles up with S-range powerhouses and ○×∆□☆ moves to the back I won't have space for him anymore. Unless you guys fall in love with him or something.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko263.jpg
Here's our first full-up party! Camille and Tai Ho, though, need their weapons sharpened and some new armor, so first I'll have Yam Koo take me back to shore. There are a few more towns in the Seika/Kaku region with some decent upgrades, totalling about 35,000 bits (!!). When I come back everyone will be decked out with awesome gear, have L5 weapons, a small stock of Medicine, and Cleo will have attached that Fire Rune she got from Leknaat way back in the day.

I didn't get any screenshots of the shopping spree (because, really, talk about Yawnsville) but I did snap this great pic of ○×∆□☆ wearing a bucket on his head:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko264.jpg

Brickroad
07-29-2008, 08:54 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko265.jpg
We enter the castle through a cave network underneath it. This is a one-shot dungeon; after the boss is dead you can never come back here, so it's important you grab all the treasures. There's nothing terribly notable except for these Toe Shoes. These give ○×∆□☆ a decent armor upgrade and are absolutely crucial to recruiting one of the Stars of Destiny later on. I don't recall if you ever find another pair, but if you can't, passing up this chest means screwing yourself out of a perfect game. Even worse would be getting them, replacing them with something better, and then selling them off before the time comes when you need them.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko267.jpg
Here we see ○×∆□☆ using his Soul Eater against an annoying enemy. These suits of armor break into a bunch of different pieces and can hit like four of my guys at once, and they have a lot more HP than other monsters in the area. Fortunately ○×∆□☆ has a few charges of Deadly Fingertips, the L1 Soul Eater magic, which instantly kills a foe. Unlike most RPGs were death attacks don't often stick, I have never seen the Soul Eater kill spells miss except against bosses. Since you can only have one rune equipped, this basically means ○×∆□☆ has a few "freebie" kills in each dungeon. Soul Eater starts out awesome and only get better as more of ○×∆□☆'s friends die horrible agonizing deaths!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko268.jpg
Many Suikoden dungeons have these little "secret" rooms you have to walk through walls to reach. This is an attack rune of some kind, but I don't know exactly what it does. Probably damage, I imagine.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko269.jpg
Eventually we exit the caves and enter the castle proper, which is full of gigantic, empty, featureless rooms. Soon we will fill them all with the hustle and bustle of rebel life!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko270.jpg
I promised you guys a for-real boss fight, so here you go!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko271.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko272.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko273.jpg
Cleo is the hero of the fight with her Fire Rune. I'll explain in more detail how magic runes work probably in the next post, but for now all you have to know is that she's dealing 250-350 damage per turn when everyone else is struggling to top 60. Most Suikoden bosses have an enormous amount of HPs, especially later when the game all but assumes you have access to every high level rune. Still, with people slinging Medicine around the Zombie Dragon eventually goes down, and Camille totally zings it:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko274.jpg

Brickroad
07-29-2008, 08:55 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko275.jpg
Hey, great idea!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko276.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko277.jpg
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko278.jpg
Um... you guys all suck. Wait, who do we know that is good at coming up with names...? Oh! I've got it!

Hey peanut gallery!
Here is our amazing, glorious new castle:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/castle.jpg
It looks lonely and pathetic now, but we're going to jam pack this bastard with Stars of Destiny until it's full to bursting. Home is where the heart is, and ain't nobody gots more heart than ○×∆□☆ and his crew! If you guys can't come up with a really good one (seriously, none of this random symbol nonsense) I'm quitting this LP, getting the topic locked and will probably be banned from the Talking Time. I have just the thing to do it, too:

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko279.jpg

Mazian
07-29-2008, 09:15 PM
Cstlvnia..

McDohl
07-29-2008, 09:53 PM
You should name the castle Samba de.

That way, it's the Samba de Castle.

shivam
07-29-2008, 10:22 PM
it's gotta be the Toastyfrg.

Gredlen
07-29-2008, 11:06 PM
I'm 99% sure you can buy Toe Shoes later in the game.

Also, I always thought Camille was just crazy. Even though I remember reading that little bit of text from the shopkeeper about Gremio's debt, I always dismissed it as some throwaway flavor text. I totally didn't put two and two together there. That's pretty cool.

Pajaro Pete
07-30-2008, 12:25 AM
Cstlvnia..

I would support this if I didn't already know they'd refer to it as "Cstlvnia Castle It feels so good"

Mazian
07-30-2008, 12:45 AM
Cstlvnia Castle
That is an awkward locution. In that case, I suggest simply "Vania" instead.

Rosencrantz
07-30-2008, 01:15 AM
I would support this if I didn't already know they'd refer to it as "Cstlvnia Castle etc"

Oh-ho, thanks for reminding me of Qlon.

Clearly, the castle needs to be named Feelgood Castle. It feels so good.

Octopus Prime
07-30-2008, 01:57 AM
That is an awkward locution. In that case, I suggest simply "Vania" instead.

Dude, that was totally going to be my idea!

mr_bungle700
07-30-2008, 02:18 AM
Let's call it Frank.

Frank Castle.

We're serious about punishing evildoers, right? Let's show them just how serious.

Takeshi's Castle is also acceptable.

Thinaran
07-30-2008, 02:37 AM
Vania? But it's not in a forest, it's in the middle of a lake.


What's the dutch word for lake I wonder?

Makkara
07-30-2008, 02:42 AM
Haunted Castle (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Haunted_Castle_flyer.jpg).

Nobuyuki
07-30-2008, 03:01 AM
Haunted Castle and Takeshi's Castle are both winners in my book.

Elfir
07-30-2008, 07:05 AM
I like Takeshi's. Or Feelgood.

liquidben
07-30-2008, 07:49 AM
I propose the obvious and inevitable: Phallic Castle. Or Freudian Castle, if you want to be more oblique. Sadly, "Overcompensation" just won't fit.

Elfir
07-30-2008, 08:16 AM
I propose the obvious and inevitable: Phallic Castle. Or Freudian Castle, if you want to be more oblique. Sadly, "Overcompensation" just won't fit.

Please no. Toasty Castle would be preferable.

Isn't toasty a status effect? Wouldn't that mean the whole place is some kinda spa?

TheSL
07-30-2008, 08:37 AM
How about Tyrants Castle?

shivam
07-30-2008, 08:49 AM
Eureka's Castle, maybe?

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 08:58 AM
Eureka's Castle, maybe?

Holy... holy shit. Was that that old Nickelodean puppet show with like a two-headed dragon whose heads were named Bog and Quagmire? Because I have literally not thought about that show since I was 8 years old, and you just caused half my brain to cave in with CHILDHOOD MEMORIES.

I think I like you best of all, scarecrow.

Kishi
07-30-2008, 08:59 AM
Put me down for Takeshis.

Also, how does that thing qualify as a castle? It just looks like someone put some floors down on a cave.

Stiv
07-30-2008, 09:04 AM
Eureka's Castle, maybe?

Oh god yes.

Elfir
07-30-2008, 09:10 AM
Eureka's Castle, maybe?

Ignore my old votes, this is The Name.

estragon
07-30-2008, 09:11 AM
I always named it Odessa.

. . . I know this makes me lame.

Elfir
07-30-2008, 09:14 AM
I always named it Odessa.

. . . I know this makes me lame.

I think I named it Toran. I'll never forget the name of the lake now though.

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 09:21 AM
Hero/Army/Castle names!

1 (before this LP): Hero = Olaf, Castle = ☆
2: Hero = SRB, Army/Castle = can't remember, but they've been lots of things because I've played this game ten million times
3: Flame Champ = Cesar, Castle = McDohl (could you name the army? I don't remember)
4: Hero = Cesar, Army = Liberation, Boat = Sea Bitch
5: Hero = Nicolai, Army = Liberation, Castle = Luna-Falena

SlimJimm
07-30-2008, 10:17 AM
My younger brother and I always name our castle White Castle.

I mean after a hard day of fighting I love to hear that Mathiu wants everyone to go to White Castle for some rest and burgers.

shivam
07-30-2008, 10:21 AM
http://images.wikia.com/puppet/images/d/d6/Title-eureekascastle.jpg

in your heart, you know it to be true.

Gredlen
07-30-2008, 11:02 AM
I was toying around with the idea of suggesting Eureka's Castle, but I definitely didn't expect it to get quite the reception it did.
Man. =(

Elfir
07-30-2008, 11:02 AM
I was toying around with the idea of suggesting Eureka's Castle, but I definitely didn't expect it to get quite the reception it did.
Man. =(

Suuuure you did.

Kishi
07-30-2008, 11:03 AM
Neclord = Batly

(Spoilers)

Alixsar
07-30-2008, 11:16 AM
I think White Castle is probably the best option here, but it seems like everyone wants Eureka's Castle...

poetfox
07-30-2008, 11:39 AM
I would like to add my vote to the Eureka's Castle pile.

Thinaran
07-30-2008, 11:45 AM
Then I add my vote for White Castle, as I do not take that reference. Except for it being some kid's show I've never heard of obviously.

Torgo
07-30-2008, 01:22 PM
Eureka's Castle.

PapillonReel
07-30-2008, 02:02 PM
Eureka's Castle.

This is the only choice.

Pajaro Pete
07-30-2008, 02:03 PM
Allegra's Window. Make it work.

Zithuan
07-30-2008, 02:12 PM
Just to point out, the show was called "Eureeka's Castle" (spelled incorrectly for some silly reason). Either way, I think the path is clear...

Octopus Prime
07-30-2008, 02:15 PM
Just to point out, the show was called "Eureeka's Castle" (spelled incorrectly for some silly reason). Either way, I think the path is clear...

I think the spelling was intentional, since, based on that image, it had Muppet-esque monsters and vampires and spiders and such like, so the "eek" in the middle was likely a reference to this.

Of course, this is based entirely on that picture, because I have never heard of this show before.

Elfir
07-30-2008, 02:21 PM
I think the spelling was intentional, since, based on that image, it had Muppet-esque monsters and vampires and spiders and such like, so the "eek" in the middle was likely a reference to this.

Of course, this is based entirely on that picture, because I have never heard of this show before.

That makes sense...

I only remember it because some jerk found the opening on youtube recently, bringing back all the horrible memories. There are sewer-dwelling siblings obsessed with peanut butter sandwiches, a dragon whose best friend is his tail, and claymation worms.

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 06:17 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko280.jpg
Yeah, it's pretty much the best possible name ever. Way better than "○×∆□☆ Castle" or "Buttplug Castle" or whatever it was you wanted to call it, Gremio.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko281.jpg
So the Liberation Army is officially a real thing! And... wait a minute, who's that guy standing there in the blue bathrobe...?

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/yamkoo.gif009/108: Yam Koo
It's Yam Koo! He's essentially a freebie who comes along with Tai Ho. As for his battle prowess, I don't know much about him. There's only one fight in the game you have to use him, and we're a ways away from it yet. Usually when I go there I don't bother leveling Yam Koo or decking him out, either, so I've never actually seen him in action. He's got a Unite attack with Tai Ho that isn't anything spectacular. Will this playthrough be the surfer dude's time to shine?

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Just as we're about to totally rip the Empire a new one Leknaat shows up with some housewarming gifts. The first is the Stone Tablet of Promise, which is Eureka's Castle's roster. The second is...

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Luc, the kid who mistook "please welcome our guests inside" for "summon a monster and try to kill them".

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Zing!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/luc.gif010/108: Luc
Luc is our first dedicated magic-user. He's a fan favorite, but I don't like him in my team for three reasons: 1) dedicated magic-users are as pointless as dedicated warriors, especially late in the game when you start getting a ton of people who are good at both (like Cleo); 2) he's got an S-range weapon, which means he either eats up a front row slot or doesn't get to act in combat; 3) his Wind Rune is hot-glued on and, as far as elemental runes go, Wind is probably the least useful of the five.

Oh yeah, I guess I promised you guys a write-up on how rune magic works. I think I'll hold off on that until I have a few more magic runes to play with.

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Mathiu wastes no time in getting right down to business: hit the village of Kouan and recruit this Lepant chap to our cause.

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Quit stealing my material, Gremio.

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 06:20 PM
Now that Eureka's Castle is ours, let's take a look around! Right now it's just two floors and a basement, and there's nothing much really interesting to see.

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Luc is hanging out on the second floor guarding our massive Slab'o'Names. This is a list of everyone we have on staff. Right now it's a paltry nine names (remember, Pahn done run off back in Gregminster) but that will change soon.

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The stone tablet serves as a giant status screen of sorts. Clicking on someone brings up all their vital info. Each character comes associated with a star; ○×∆□☆ is the "Tenkai Star" and Gremio is the "Tenei Star". There's quite a bit of correlation between the five games on what kind of character gets which star; all five strategists share the same star, for example.

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You can bring up a status screen for non-combatants too, but it doesn't really offer anything helpful.

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Down in the basement we can see that the Zombie Dragon forever watches over us. Thanks for your vigilance, horrible rotting corpse!

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All the way down in the basement, we even have our very own jail cell! We only ever get to lock one person up in here, and that person happens to be the #3 most likely character to screw you out of a perfect game. We won't meet this individual for a very, very, VERY long time though.

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Neither Mathiu nor Leknaat will shut up about recruiting people, so let's get to it. Our first stop is right here in the Kaku opium den, where we meet a crazy inventor with some crazy ideas. Whatever, pal, we're hurting for help. You're in.

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The game almost always gives you this option, but as far as I know there is never a benefit to saying no. So we won't!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/sergei.gif011/108: Sergei
Yet another of the vast list of characters I've never actually taken out into combat, Sergei is the first one who actually provides a benefit: an elevator that lets ○×∆□☆ move around the castle without trudging up and down a bunch of stairs. Every Suikoden game has an "elevator guy", even Suiko4 which takes place on a boat.

Sergei is the only guy we can get in Kaku for now, so let's head north to Seika and see who's hanging out.

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 06:22 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko296.jpg
It's our old pal Marie! Unfortunately the Imperials figured out she was harboring fugitives and ran her out of town. I guess the least we could do is give her a place to set up shop, seeing as how it was our bad and all.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/marie.gif012/108: Marie
One of the most important memebers of the Liberation Army, Marie opens up an inn. Inns in Suikoden are pretty typical RPG fare; refill HP/MP, save the game, you know the drill.

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Seika is also home to the ugliest woman alive, who practically shoves her way into the Liberation.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/onil.gif013/108: Onil
Onil does absolutely nothing for you at all. You can't put her in the party, she doesn't run a shop, she doesn't get involved in the story at all. Her schtick is being the "old gossip lady" (another Suikoden staple), but her gossip is seldom if ever actually useful. Believe it or not, though, she still manages to keep from being the most useless character in the game, who we'll meet in a few more adventures.

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Back up at Kwaba, we meet back up with this guy, who was whining about opening his own shop. It's your lucky day, pal!

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/chandler.gif014/108: Chandler
Chandler is Eureka's Castle's item shop. As I explained, his inventory includes every item from every hardware store you've visited. Some essential-for-recruitment items are found in hardware stores, usually only in one spot, so instead of running around the world frantically looking for the one shop you found Red Flower Seeds (or whatever) you can usually just hit up Chandler. As long as you've been visiting the stores as they come, he'll have what you need.

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There are a few more locations we can reach in this region. South of Kaku is Kouan, the place Mathiu wants ○×∆□☆ to meet up with Lepant, but there's no one recruitable there, yet. Further south is Garan Fortress, the checkpoint between the Seika/Kaku/Kouan region in the east, and the Teien/Rikon/Antei region in the west. We can't cross through it yet as it's held by Imperial forces, but we can stick our noses inside to see what's up.

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Looks like it's ○×∆□☆'s old teacher. Hey old man, sign here, and here, initial here...

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/kai.gif015/108: Kai
I have a love/hate relationship with Kai. There is no doubting he's completely awesome; he's an M-range fighter who is every bit as good as ○×∆□☆. What's more, he and ○×∆□☆ can Unite to use the "Master-Pupil Attack" which damages every enemy on the screen and leaves neither participant unbalanced. Here's why I don't like him: in the time it takes to select Master-Pupil Attack from the menu, and enter generic Attack commands for everyone else, and watching the unite attack animation... you could have Free Will'd your way through two combat rounds. In other words, he makes battles super easy at the cost of also making them much slower. I generally am not willing to make that trade, but a lot of players are, and Kai is a party mainstay for a lot of people all the way through the endgame.

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 06:25 PM
Our last stop is the Forest Village, which connects the Seika/Kaku/Kouan region with the Great Forest further east. We can't pass through the forest yet because of leprechaun magic, but that's not why we're here anyway.

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This guy sounds like a psychiatrist, but he's actually a blacksmith. He can only sharpen up to L5 (and our stuff has been L5 since Lenankamp) but it'll be nice having one right at home so I don't have to hop into the boat every time some newcomer's weapon needs a tune-up.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/maas.gif016/108: Maas
Every Suikoden game has a set of five mascot characters. Suiko2 has five flying squirrels you can recruit, Suiko3 has a whole pack of dogs, Suiko4 has a harem of mermaids and Suiko5's got an entire village of beavers. In Suiko1 your mascots are color-coded blacksmiths, starting with Maas. Each new blacksmith you recruit can sharpen your weapons more and more. Later games only have one blacksmith whose skills get better as you deliver new hammers to them, but poor Maas will be stuck at his L5 cap the entire game.

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Baths? I dig baths. Pack your shit, homie.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/sansuke.gif017/108: Sansuke
Sansuke's claim to fame is opening up the bath house at Eureka's Castle. You can also put him in the party if you must. I think I've tried him out once or twice but never in any serious capacity. He sure is goofy-lookin' though.

And that's everyone we can get! Holy crap you guys, the Liberation Army has almost DOUBLED in size with that short trip around this region of the world. Let's head back to Eureka's Castle and see what they've all been up to while we were out and about.

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Here's Sergei's beautiful, wonderful elevator. The castle only has three floors now, but eventually it will have five and several outlying wings besides.

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The downside is, you actually have to step inside the elevator to use it, so it doesn't actually save you any time if you're only going up or down a single floor. Later in the series they learned their lesson and nixed the "inside the elevator" shot.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko305.jpg
On the second floor we find Onil, yammering about some nonsense. Down in the corner you can see where Maas has opened up his blacksmithery.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko306.jpg
The second floor is where all the shops in Eureka's Castle are eventually located, like Chandler's shop down here in the corner. I know you're curious, so I'll just tell you: the Needle cures "Balloon" status, a ailment certain monsters will drop on you. It doesn't do anything, but each time you're hit with it another balloon is added. When a character has three, they float away from battle and are out of play until you win. Status ailments in Suikoden are almost always negligible so I tend to sell or store any packs of Needles or Antitoxins that clog up my inventory.

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What luck! This is actually one of Suikoden's more annoying random elements. There is a chef character out in Seika you can't recruit until Marie specifically asks for him. Sometimes it's quick, sometimes she takes forever. There's no solid trigger I'm aware of. You talk to Marie all the time so you're bound to see it eventually, but this is the first time I've gotten the request on my very first try. Well, no point looking a gift horse in the mouth.

shivam
07-30-2008, 06:26 PM
i never use kai. In retrospect, i should because he rocks, but that would mean taking out kage, stallion, and cleo, and i can't do that. Yes, i use true holy, go fuck yourself.

Brickroad
07-30-2008, 06:28 PM
http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko308.jpg
Back in Seika, on the other side of the same building we ran into Marie, we meet the chef she wants. They've pretty much been hanging around here the whole time I was in the haunted castle and didn't bother to network, so ○×∆□☆ has to play matchmaker.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/antonio.gif018/108: Antonio
Future Suikoden games give your chefs a ton of stuff to do, from Iron Chef minigames to restaurants that make you money to ingredient-hunting subquests. In Suiko1, though, they just stand around doing nothing until you ask to have them in your party. Is Antonio any good in combat? The world may never know.

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Not every character is this easy to recruit, though; Gaspar here won't join up until the castle is a bit bigger. The more people you recruit the more the castle grows, and the more willing people are to join the Liberation. This can get pretty technical, but it's easy to boil down: after every major mission, go back and talk to all the people who wouldn't join up before, to see if they say something new.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko310.jpg
Same deal with Lorelai here. Sometimes your castle needs to be a certain size, sometimes you need to have a certain number of people, sometimes you need to meet some other requirement (which can get pretty obscure).

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Meg here requires a certain character to be in my party that I don't actually have yet. I'll come back when I do.

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Back in Eureka's Castle, Sansuke's already fired up his bath.

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Ahh... refreshing! It's pretty ghetto now, but the bigger Eureka's Castle gets the more posh our bath becomes. Note the empty pedistals surrounding the bath. We have six antique stands and two spots to hang paintings. In the future, instead of pawning my antiques I'll show them to you guys and you all can argue about how my bathhouse needs to be decorated.

http://scibbe.com/stash/suiko/suiko314.jpg
Okay, I've done about all I can do without advancing the plot. Time to go see a man about a Lepant.

Hey peanut gallery!
Here's how the party select screen works: the window at the bottom right shows who is currently in the team. These people are locked in; I can't remove them. (Get used to seeing Gremio and Viktor's names in there. Heh.) That means I need two people to tag along with me! Do you demand more Tai Ho and Camille? Shall I bust out Kai and lay the smack down with his vicious Unite attack? Is it time to see what the chef and the bath guy are made of? Pimp my party, Talking Time!

You can see everyone I've got in that screenshot for now, or you can hop back to the master list (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=224080&postcount=2).

kaisel
07-30-2008, 06:33 PM
I'll say Sergei and Antonio or Sansuke, since I've never used 'em. I vote for never using Luc though, unless you have to (I don't remember if you ever have to in the first one, haven't played it in so long) since he's goddamned annoying. And pretty useless.

Torgo
07-30-2008, 06:59 PM
That would mean taking out kage, stallion, and cleo, and i can't do that. Yes, i use true holy, go fuck yourself.
No shame, man. Stallion is a Suiko2 mainstay for me. Decent back row character and super fast overworld speed? Sign me up!

Pimp my Party: I think I'm gonna have to say... Tai Ho and Antonio.

Elfir
07-30-2008, 07:42 PM
Because I've never seen them in use: and I like to see others suffer
Sansuke
Antonio
Sergei

Maas can wait until we have more blacksmiths and can make a dandy matched set.

SpoonyGundam
07-30-2008, 08:31 PM
I didn't even realize you could use Sergei in your party. I want to see him. I want to see his power.

shivam
07-30-2008, 10:10 PM
tai ho is my boy.

Odin
07-30-2008, 11:13 PM
I want to see Antonio in action! Sansuke would be fun, too, but trade him for someone else if you want to.

The next time I get to check this thread will be the middle of next week, so I guess I'll see how this all turns out later.

PapillonReel
07-30-2008, 11:21 PM
I want to see you use all of 'em, Brick. Show us their individual strengths and weaknesses! Switch 'em out whenever you get the chance! Go crazy!