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Parish
08-19-2007, 10:40 PM
The third (and best) Metroid will be up on Virtual Console in a few hours, so now is a great time to kick off a collective playthrough. I will be joining in the fun, hopefully tomorrow. Feel free to get started before the VC version if you want, of course. And now to kick it off all official-like:

Super Metroid
Nintendo | Super NES | Adventure | 1994

Super Metroid has sometimes been called the greatest game ever. (EGM did it a while back, for starters.) This week, we will discuss why. Of course, dissenting opinions are welcome, although be warned that people will think you're insane.

ringworm
08-19-2007, 11:36 PM
I am going to do both Fun Club games this week! Awesome!

Torgo
08-19-2007, 11:41 PM
I'm going to have to see if I can coax the Wii into getting online just long enough to nab this.

If I do I'll be playing it and SOTN at the same time. Awesome.

Daremo
08-20-2007, 12:33 AM
I've already moved stuff to the SD card just so I have enough space for this one (Wii hard drive pretty please). Even though I have the original cartridge is it wrong that I want to download it so I can play it again on the Wii? I think there is something wrong with me o.O

Sanagi
08-20-2007, 12:36 AM
I have a Super Metroid t-shirt from the old Nintendo Power catalog. I still wear it. It's my favorite shirt. The day it finally starts to disintegrate will be a sad one.

Thinaran
08-20-2007, 12:51 AM
Europe didn't get Super Metroid, we got Breath of Fire 2.



o_0

Merus
08-20-2007, 01:19 AM
This game, in my opinion, still hasn't been surpassed. Oh, sure, individual titles have done elements of this game better, but nothing's done the complete package anywhere near as well.

For instance: the Prologue. Notice how Samus has none of her abilities, and there's no tutorial pop-ups. You start at the top of a large shaft, and working out how to move will basically move you on (because you fall to the bottom, of course). Working out how to shoot will get you past the large blue door to the right. You move onto the next room, and you learn this is a game of rooms connected by bright blue doors. Okay. The next few rooms set the mood and teach you how to jump, then there's a room with a low ceiling, and then...

...you get locked in. After about thirty second, Ridley appears, and all the people who've played Metroid 1 go 'yay!'. This is a really, really early boss fight, but the thing is that you're supposed to lose. (Of course, it's possible to win this fight as well, which is nice attention to detail.) So, you've stumbled into this trap and the trap doesn't necessarily kill you. The game's already set up the expectation here: next time you stumble into a trap, it doesn't mean that you're screwed. There is a way out so long as you tough it out and find the right trigger. (Time-based boss fights as the opening fight are problematic for that reason: they teach the player that you don't actually have to fight.)

After Ridley flies off, the door opens and you're given a second challenge that ties into Metroid lore: escape. It's not far, five rooms, but it's made worse by not knowing the controls so well and the addition of regular steam spurts along the route. If you don't notice the steam spurts, you probably won't make it out of the twisty passage at the start of the escape sequence. Rule #2: be observant, and you will win. Fail to be, and the game will show you no mercy.

After restarting, and having learnt the steam spurt rule, you then make it out to the shaft when the game throws another surprise at you: the shaft starts tilting left and right. The spurts are still going, so you climb the shaft, having learnt about the steam spurts before, and escape with seconds to spare. No fiddling around with using the elevator: if you reach the top of the shaft, the game considers that you've passed the challenge.

These two 'rules' of Metroid introduced here are never violated during the game. Any time there is a trap, there is also a way out. Observation and experimentation consistently saves the day. And at every point the prologue is crafted to make you aware of your abilities, one at a time, and set your expectations, which are then reinforced with the game proper.

I have a lot to say about Super Metroid, and hopefully it won't be quite so masturbatory as above, but yeah.

It does have its flaws, though: the super missiles are basically redundant and it suffers from the common affliction of pick-ups, that they become rarer and rarer as the game goes on but they don't get any easier to find to compensate. And I would have liked some plot between the start of the game and the Ridley fight, but these are minor concerns, really.

switchbeat
08-20-2007, 01:32 AM
Strangely, I have played all Metroids except Super Metroid. I managed to start the series off with Metroid II on my GB. Nostalgia ratchets up my love for that game leaving it my favorite in the series (no I haven't gone back to replay it). I'll be in on this one.

Maggie
08-20-2007, 01:41 AM
I've beaten this game roughly ten times, but I've never actually owned a copy or played it on an emulator.

I really did rent it that much.

Man, I was a stupid kid.

Lakupo
08-20-2007, 02:55 AM
I know I'll buy this again on VC, but it's just a matter of when. I was hoping to keep my whole "September is Metroid Replay Month" thing going, and being knee-deep in Persona 3 certainly helps, but I might as well take the plunge and grab it today. If Earthbound sales might bring Mother 3 over, certainly Super Metroid sales will tell Nintendo "RELEASE A NEW 2D METROID, YOU IDIOTS!"

it suffers from the common affliction of pick-ups, that they become rarer and rarer as the game goes on but they don't get any easier to find to compensate.

But the expansions getting harder to find is sort of the point. Why would the item collection rate have any meaning if it didn't take any effort to find them?

I've checked maps for locations of items in Fusion and Zero Mission (which tend to be exercises in creative shinesparking, mostly), but I haven't done the same for Super Metroid. It's almost sacred. I love finding new stuff ten years later.

Octopus Prime
08-20-2007, 02:59 AM
I have it on the SNES, but I'm getting the VC version instead.

What with the fact that my SNES controller stopped working and also went missing.

And this time, maybe I'll try beating the game without the Plasma Beam

Merus
08-20-2007, 03:21 AM
But the expansions getting harder to find is sort of the point. Why would the item collection rate have any meaning if it didn't take any effort to find them?

Look at it this way. 95% is far easier to obtain than 100%. Each pickup becomes increasingly harder to find, sure, but the last pickup in the game could be basically anywhere on the map.

Lakupo
08-20-2007, 03:41 AM
Look at it this way. 95% is far easier to obtain than 100%. Each pickup becomes increasingly harder to find, sure, but the last pickup in the game could be basically anywhere on the map.

ZM and Fusion are a bit friendlier in that regard, since they tell you where you're missing expansions... and I can't argue that that's not good design, but mystery has been an important part of Metroid since the beginning (although the original is obviously too mysterious). It's made for people who like scrounging everywhere on the map.

Makkara
08-20-2007, 05:06 AM
I've checked maps for locations of items in Fusion and Zero Mission (which tend to be exercises in creative shinesparking, mostly), but I haven't done the same for Super Metroid. It's almost sacred. I love finding new stuff ten years later.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I played Super Metroid a lot back in the day, and I've played it through a fair number of times since. But when I watched the Let's Play video, I found out there was tons of stuff I had missed. It's full of little secrets and surprises that are completely optional. That attention to detail is what pushes Super Metroid ahead of almost all other games in my mind.

Fer
08-20-2007, 07:04 AM
Europe didn't get Super Metroid, we got Breath of Fire 2.



o_0Breath of Fire 2 means that the day in which you(we) get Megaman 2 and Demon's Crest is near (I hope).

Kolbe
08-20-2007, 07:58 AM
I haven't played Super Metroid even once. Yup, I'm an heretic, I guess. But I'll start tonight. Hope is as good as you say it is.

Zef
08-20-2007, 08:16 AM
I've beaten this game roughly ten times, but I've never actually owned a copy or played it on an emulator.

I really did rent it that much.

Man, I was a stupid kid.
Ditto. No emulators, just rentals and borrowed copies. I never did get the "best" ending, though, but I remember getting as close as 97% item acquisition.

ZM and Fusion are a bit friendlier in that regard, since they tell you where you're missing expansions...
I don't remember how Fusion handled it, but I thought ZM showed the item checklist only after you've beaten it once? I've been using that in my new playthroughs, but I'm sure I didn't have it for my first one (that very last missile expansion tucked away in a bubble wall deep in Norfair was EVIL.)

I have a Super Metroid t-shirt from the old Nintendo Power catalog. I still wear it. It's my favorite shirt. The day it finally starts to disintegrate will be a sad one.
Not a problem. Make sure you have at least 11 of each item, tuck down into a ball, hold L+R, and fire. That shirt should be good as new after a quick flash.

reibeatall
08-20-2007, 08:24 AM
I'm not that good at Super Metroid, but I'll start up my game again and see how long until I get stuck.

le geek
08-20-2007, 09:02 AM
For reference here is my opinion before replaying.

While I still think Ocarina of Time is "OMG-teh-best-game-evar" of games old enough to be considered, Super Metroid is probably my favorite SNES game. AND I initially disliked SOTN a bit since it cribbed so much from Super Metroid.

So let's see if any of that changes...

Cheers,
Ben

Jakanden
08-20-2007, 09:10 AM
I cannot count how many times I have played this game. I do actually own it, but I am not digging my SNES out of the closet for it. I would play it on the bus ride via PSP, but I am playing Persona 2 right now heh.

Regardless, this is easily one of the best experiences of the SNES era and one of the best games of all time. The first time I fought Kraid I couldn't believe how huge he was and kept thinking "I am going to get slaughtered". I also remember how I accidentally broke the glass tube in Brinstar and freaked out.

Yeah, great game.

Zef
08-20-2007, 09:19 AM
The glass corridor was all sorts of cool. However, it was just a bit counterintuitive in that the game's own attract mode had to spoil the puzzle for you (leave the game on the title screen unattended and its demo will show exactly what to do there.)

I'll always wonder who that anonymous spaceman was that died just outside Kraid's chamber, leaving his corpse to the carrion feeders.

Positronic Brain
08-20-2007, 09:27 AM
Europe didn't get Super Metroid, we got Breath of Fire 2.

Not even that - we got Breath of Fire 2 *last week*. This week we only got 2 measly releases: Wave Race 64 and Crater Maze. In summer, everything in Europe is closed. Didn't know that applied to the Wii Store as well :'(

So, you got Shinobi III *and* Super Metroid this week? And people wonder why they don't like Americans in Europe. :P

Tomm Guycot
08-20-2007, 10:48 AM
I can count the times I've played through Super Metroid: twice.

alexb
08-20-2007, 10:54 AM
Time to make sure the galaxy's at peath.

Tomm Guycot
08-20-2007, 10:56 AM
Time to make sure the galaxy's at peath.

Speaking of which, that reminded me that Metroid was one of the FIRST series' to adopt voice acting.

Shut up, Prime 3 haters!

alexb
08-20-2007, 11:01 AM
It's a stretch to call the translator lisping a solitary sentence into a microphone "voice acting."

Mightyblue
08-20-2007, 11:02 AM
Had to start somewhere, no? Also, Tales of Phantasia had one of the first full length vocal theme songs on the actual cart itself, though the song is horribly digitized for the sake of cart mem.

Kishi
08-20-2007, 12:02 PM
The glass corridor was all sorts of cool. However, it was just a bit counterintuitive in that the game's own attract mode had to spoil the puzzle for you (leave the game on the title screen unattended and its demo will show exactly what to do there.)

There are two demos; one is a dramatic interpretation of Samus's arrival on Zebes, and the other shows more advanced techniques, such as infinite bomb-jumping, the Crystal Flash, and the aforementioned glass-shattery. So you'd actually have to let the title screen sit for two cycles to see those little spoilers.

djSyndrome
08-20-2007, 12:10 PM
There are two demos; one is a dramatic interpretation of Samus's arrival on Zebes, and the other shows more advanced techniques, such as infinite bomb-jumping, the Crystal Flash, and the aforementioned glass-shattery. So you'd actually have to let the title screen sit for two cycles to see those little spoilers.

Begs the question: lots of games do it now, but is this the first game with two distinct title loops - one for story, the other for gameplay?

Zeroneight
08-20-2007, 12:14 PM
The glass corridor was all sorts of cool. However, it was just a bit counterintuitive in that the game's own attract mode had to spoil the puzzle for you (leave the game on the title screen unattended and its demo will show exactly what to do there.)

I'll always wonder who that anonymous spaceman was that died just outside Kraid's chamber, leaving his corpse to the carrion feeders.

I always pretend it's Houston.

Destil
08-20-2007, 12:15 PM
Such a good game.

Playing through it again I got to where the platforms in Brinstar drop out from under you after the spore mini-boss, and was stuck for quite a while until I remember there was a run button that worked before you pick up the Speed Boost.

Upon replay my biggest gripe so far is with the controls. Playing on the SNES original. Seems like you need to hold too many buttons too often... I think I'm going to try and re-map run to a shoulder button when I get home. Fusion got the idea that you don't need separate up-forward and down-forward aim right, one button worked well.

I still suck at bomb-jumping. Wall jumps, however, rock! I never really played the game over from the beginning after getting proficient with the wall jump, and the difference in grabbing random items with it is great.

Zeroneight
08-20-2007, 12:24 PM
Yeah, I map shoot to R and aim up diagonally to L, because I have to run all the time, and aiming down diagonally is easily accomplished mid-air anyway.

mode7
08-20-2007, 01:05 PM
I'm playing it on my DS actually. I also have Metroid II on it, (with colours) and started the first Metroid; I decided to play them as chrono logically released, and I think Metroid didn't age that well, so I think I'll start Zero Mission.

I haven't finished a Metroid game ever, I did play Fusion and was well ahead of it, but I disliked it, I hated the computer that told me what to do every time I went in a room.

I also have played Super Metroid, but never actually finished it. I remember I got to some rooms that had lava and the heat lowered your energy. I supposed I had to have a new suit, but never managed to get it.

I also played Petroid Prime at a friend's house, in February, and I didn't like the controls.. moving the camera felt uncomfortable.. which the Wiimote might do very well for Corruption.

I still think 2D suits the games better. I can't explain it very well. I didn't like the first person view in Prime, as I like to see my character as I play the game.

Is Super Metroid considered the best Metroid game? Which one would be the worst?

The 3D Metroids feels like a different game... Nintendo should make a 2D Metroid for DS, but please, not as linear as Fusion..

Ben1842
08-20-2007, 01:32 PM
Maybe a little design document fun?


http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x60/Ben1842/smart_devmap.jpg



Edit: I changed it to a link so it's not too spoilery. (since it includes the map of the game world)

And some Retro cover fun. <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x60/Ben1842/np_60.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a> <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x60/Ben1842/ngd_smet.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

Maggie
08-20-2007, 01:54 PM
Yeah, in that celebratory fashion, here's this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcrUqXg1fss), as well. And yes, there's five minutes of it. Five long minutes.

Joshiepoo22
08-20-2007, 02:10 PM
Wait I was supposed to lose to Ridley?? Oops...looks like I dont know my own gaming skills. Anyways, it's my first play through of anything that is Metroid. I've dabbles with the orignal Nes version but it never really caught my attention (hopefully we can get the updated version Zero I believe into game club sometime.) Only 15 minutes in and this game is already on my top 5 list.

Brickroad
08-20-2007, 02:44 PM
Time to fire up the Wii and buy this, right now.

I mean like right this very second.

Jet Pilot
08-20-2007, 03:00 PM
I'm out of town for work for a few more days so I can't wait to get home and buy this game on my Wii VC. One of the best 16-bit games EVER (heck, one of the best video games EVER).

I own it a Super Metroid cartridge for my SNES, but the game is 13 years old and I don't know how much longer the battery is going to last (it was working about a year ago last time I played it).

I'll just pick it up for my VC so I don't have to worry about a battery any more.

I also have the Nintendo Power and the Super Metroid Player's Guide shown above. Yay!

Octopus Prime
08-20-2007, 03:11 PM
I like to pretend that the blue guy is Houston as well.

I can't say I wept for him.

Ben1842
08-20-2007, 03:45 PM
last 2 pieces of retro related junk for the week.


<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x60/Ben1842/smart_smpostersmall.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a> <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x60/Ben1842/m3usnp.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>


First the poster that came in the Nintendo Power.
Second an ad from Nintendo Power for the game.


Sorry for being such a space hog lol

littlebadwolf
08-20-2007, 03:53 PM
I'd to say something cool about Super Metroid, seeing how it is cool and all, but I personally don't have any impressive stories about it. However, in college, one of the other guys in my frat house played it non-stop and could speed run it in like forty minutes. I generally ended up being a perfectionist and tried to get 100% and whatnot.

Kishi
08-20-2007, 03:57 PM
Wait I was supposed to lose to Ridley?? Oops...looks like I dont know my own gaming skills.

Normally, the battle ends when Ridley knocks you down to less than 30 units of energy. That's what "losing" means. The other outcome is to stay above 29 units and deal enough damage to him that he gradually turns a shade of red and nearly drops the hatchling's capsule before retreating.

Zen
08-20-2007, 03:59 PM
Well, the 100% record of 55 minutes is very old and considered up for grabs. Get to work.

Eusis
08-20-2007, 04:08 PM
Just started up a game and got the bombs. Really nothing else noteworthy to say at the moment.

ScrambledGregs
08-20-2007, 04:12 PM
Allow me to throw my seed unto this pile of loving like some kind of Retronauts bukkake episode.

OK, that wasn't a great start, but I get overly excited when talk turns to a game that burns deep in my heart like a torch tossed down a mineshaft. As Super Metroid does. There are two games that my best friend and I have canonized in our agreed pantheon of greatness: Symphony of the Night and this. We both played through them for the first time while in high school 6 or 7 years ago and found that our opinion on both games, amongst other highly important topics, were exactly the same: they were fucking awesome games.

Many moons ago he finally tracked down a SNES and copy of Super Metroid. I myself had played through the game one or twice before on the actual system, but there was something inherently fun in watching someone go through it for the first time. With a pot of coffee and all night ahead of us, he set about playing and before I knew it, the time was around 3 or 4 in the morning and our hearts were buoyed by the ending sequence. And that's the thing about Super Metroid: it begins and ends with a bang, with a lot of peaks and valleys in between. The beginning and ending sequences of the game are imprinted in my mind such that I assume if I ever somehow breed, my spawn will not even have to play through the thing to know how great it is.

On the front page I said the following in reference to Super Metroid and Symphony: "They are perfect games in their own similar-but-different ways, and even the parts that frustrate or annoy me about them are like the seeds one must put up with in order to enjoy a succulent, ripe watermelon." And I mean that just how it sounds. Certainly no game is perfect; I could elucidate flaws in either game, but why bother?? It's like complaining that Trauma Center doesn't teach you how to cure your friends of their ailments. It still succeeds at what it does, while games like Super Metroid succeed beyond just being a great videogame. They become significant accomplishments in our gaming culture and history in the same way that an album like Sgt. Pepper's was for music and a film like Citizen Kane was for movies. I'm not implying that Super Metroid is equal to or similar to either work. Rather I'm trying to say that, even if you don't like any of those three works, you can still debate them, stroking your beard and cooing about their significance, influence, or entertainment value.

If hard pressed, say by a great weight with '500 lb.' written on it, I might say that Super Metroid is my favorite game of all time. Certainly this top spot changes by the day based on any number of variables (am I happy?? am I drunk?? is the wind blowing east or west?? what would Jeremy do??), but Super Metroid easily maintains a top 5 position no matter what.

Octopus Prime
08-20-2007, 04:30 PM
Just managed to blow up Kraid real good. Now I've got the Varia and I'm plumbing the depths of Norfair like some kind of... plumber who mainly works in... magma?

Also, wasn't the Varia supposed to reduce the damage you take? There doesn't seem to be any difference.

I had forgotten that by going into the Morph Ball with when you have your beam charged you drop a lot of bombs.

Neato.

Zen
08-20-2007, 04:39 PM
Make sure you do the Quick Kill on him. Three super missiles before he's done rising and it messes up Kraid and the camera both real good.

mr_bungle700
08-20-2007, 04:45 PM
I can't believe that even after all these years I still geek out about dropping back down the busted up remains of the shaft you escape from at the end of Metroid. "This is where I climbed out at the end of Metroid! The bit of cave I just ran through was where Samus went afterward! Holy crap that's Mother Brain's jar! Hey wait, this elevator wasn't here before! AND NOW I'M BACK IN BRINSTAR THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER! I wonder if the Morph Ball is still over...YES!"

I love the way the story is told in this game. It's a textbook example of the "show, don't tell" method of exposition that many games (and movies/television shows/etc.) fail at. Everything is just...there, and you are allowed to put the information together in your head instead of having it forced upon you. That shows a lot of respect for the audience, and I think it makes every little detail have far more impact. Even the title screen is part of the story, showing you what the metroid study room on the space station is supposed to look like before you encounter the destroyed version of it in the opening sequence.

Also, and this is getting waaay ahead of things so I guess it constitutes a spoiler, but I just played through the end of the game last night and I love how the first thing you encounter just after seeing the super metroid is a room full of that crusty coral junk that you had to get through at the end of Metroid II. Just a subtle visual reminder that the giant monster you just met was your little friend from before.

Parish
08-20-2007, 05:09 PM
Oh man, if anyone is nutty enough to do a speed run or super play, be sure to chronicle your madness here.

I don't know if I'll be able to participate in this Fun Club, which saddens me. Blame EGM. I managed to polish off Zelda over the weekend, and they rewarded me by giving me reviews of FF Tactics and Dracula X Chronicles. Which is great, but I kinda wanted to play Super Metroid. And BioShock. And MGS3. Blurgh, stupid fall release season.

alexb
08-20-2007, 05:16 PM
It's not exactly mining in Utah, but I can see how being made to play that many lengthy games at once as fast as you can can be a draining experience.

Zeroneight
08-20-2007, 05:31 PM
I did a casual playthrough last week and got 1:38. I can't remember my item rate. I did a few sequence breaks, but I'm by no means an expert.

This time around I discoverd that sticking to beams in the final Ridley battle makes things MUCH easier.

Lakupo
08-20-2007, 05:32 PM
I can't believe that even after all these years I still geek out about dropping back down the busted up remains of the shaft you escape from at the end of Metroid. "This is where I climbed out at the end of Metroid! The bit of cave I just ran through was where Samus went afterward! Holy crap that's Mother Brain's jar! Hey wait, this elevator wasn't here before! AND NOW I'M BACK IN BRINSTAR THIS IS THE BEST GAME EVER! I wonder if the Morph Ball is still over...YES!"

The beginning of Super Metroid is one of my favorite beginnings to a game ever. After you escape the space station, you land on Zebes and it's raining and all moody. You enter the caverns and everything's quiet and dead. The bombed-out shell of Tourain still remains, and you return to the beginning of Brinstar in the first game, and grab the morph ball, and suddenly there's a search light focused on you! And when you go back up the elevator, the lights are back on, and you go through the door and there's space pirates and the music starts and it's just awesome. It's also works so well as a sequel because it takes you to these places from the original game, but then just blows it wide open.

Oh, and I finally figured out the Legitimate Reason™ to buy Super Metroid on Virtual Console, when I had to rush out to the post office in the middle of the Kraid fight: Suspend Play on a TV! I never realized the GameCube D-pad was so wobbly though. I might as well be playing with my cheap gravis pad in an emulator, my wall-jumping is that messed up.

Merus
08-20-2007, 06:05 PM
Yeah, I normally get the Wave Beam on my second visit to Norfair. Just saves so much time.

I love how the Metroid series has two different criteria for success. When you first start playing, it's exploration. Your goal is to find as much as possible. Once you've tapped that out, the game's goals shift: now it's about doing it as quickly as possible. Zero Mission added another alternate goal: efficiency, in trying to get the lowest percentage you could.

It's quite different to most games, which usually only support one particular goal.

Tomm Guycot
08-20-2007, 06:06 PM
They become significant accomplishments in our gaming culture and history in the same way that an album like Sgt. Pepper's was for music and a film like Citizen Kane was for movies. I'm not implying that Super Metroid is equal to or similar to either work.

...Why the hell not? it clearly was. EGM rated it best game of all time for goodness sake.

Anyway, my only Super Metroid-related story from the past is that I beat the game in 2 days the first time I played it (I got it for Jr High graduation). When I was going through Norfair, it was the hottest day of the year and for some reason we didn't have the air conditioning on.

Kolbe
08-20-2007, 06:06 PM
Ok, I'm turning my SNES on now. Hope I don't suck too much at it.

JustusRavenscroft
08-20-2007, 06:41 PM
Good gracious, this game is wondrous.

I mean, the mood and atmosphere of this thing are off the scale.

The music and sound are awesome. I don't think I've ever been so impressed by a 16-Bit game. This is what, thirteen years after its original release?

The mood on Brinstar is incredible; it equals the mood of the first planet area of Metroid Prime (also Brinstar?), which is astounding, as Super Metroid is two console generations separated from Metroid Prime.

I think there's something about being a solitary adventurer on such an alien world that gives this game such a unique feel. What I played of Prime also seemed to capture that feel; I wonder if Prime 3 will have a similar tone; from what I've seen of it, Prime 3 seems to be much larger in scope, with more NPC's and such. Whatever.

I'm playing Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night simultaneously on Wii and PS3; so far I'm enjoying Metroid more...I've played more Castlevania games recently than Metroid games, so maybe I'm just burnt out on Castlevania...who knows.

I think I like Super Metroid more than any other game I've played this year.

...my apologies for this stream-of-sub-consciousness-post...

alexb
08-20-2007, 07:50 PM
EDIT: Oh, and did Dan Owsen always sound like such a dork in the opening crawl? I always thought his voice was way cooler than it apparently actually is.

No, pretty much always. Don't believe me? Well, there's his work in Star Fox, too.

Kolbe
08-20-2007, 07:57 PM
I'm... lost. Don't know where, tough. The last thing I got was the Charge Beam. Man, I suck so hard at this kind of games.

ringworm
08-20-2007, 08:10 PM
I played it for about an hour tonight, got past Kraid, what an amazing game.

The thing that strikes me the most, and this is probably just because I came off of a marathon Echoes playthrough all last week, is just how many of the little touches Retro cribbed off of Super Metroid. Small things like bosses almost always having little rocks/enemies being tossed by bosses so you can replenish your health/missles mid-fight and how bosses leave a splattering of health/ammo after you defeat them (as opposed to just refilling it like you'd see in most games).

You can even tell where they drew their inspiration for how Save Stations look.

Another thing that struck me is how they essentially kept the icon markers for how to destroy blocks (so that you can come back later). The little symbol that means "power bomb" might as well have said "denzium".

Daikaiju
08-20-2007, 08:14 PM
One of the things that struck me early on in Super Metroid was the amount of attention paid the small things. Case in point, Samus had separate sprites depending on which way she faced. And she didn't just flip from left to right, they animated that too. The last time I'd seen that much work on animating a character was Mega Man.

Merus
08-20-2007, 08:58 PM
Retro's homages to Super are even more blatant in places: Prime has a puzzle in Magmoor Caverns that's a direct lift from the Maridia entrance.

Incidentally, I love how there's actually puzzles in this game, despite it being a shooty-explorey-adventure. They just come naturally from the game mechanics.

Mightyblue
08-20-2007, 09:00 PM
Yeah, just kicked the crap out of Kraid and now am stuck and lost. I assume I have to go into Norfair since I won't get toasted to death now, but...

I remembered how to do wall jumping now too...it's kinda like riding a bicycle for some reason.

Ystros
08-20-2007, 09:02 PM
What has always amazed me about this game is how much freedom the game gives you. Very few of the items in the game are required to beat it - even excluding the few actual glitches that allow sequence breaking. High jump, space jump, screw attack, grappling beam? Don't need them. Pick and choose which beams you want to get. Brave Norfair without the Varia Suit.

All you are really required to get are a few energy tanks to surive the final boss, some missiles, super missiles, the morphball and bomb, power bombs, speed booster, and the gravity suit. And actually I can't really remember if the speed booster is required anywhere, except allowing you to skip the grappling beam.

You could chalk up the things that enable sequence breaking, such as wall jumping and infinite bomb jumping, to sloppy design. Every single game in the series after Super Metroid tries to crack down on these things. But it is precisely these things, along with the perfect combination of graphics, music, sound and overall atmosphere, that keep me playing this game almost every other month while the likes of Zero Mission or Prime 2: Echoes collect dust.

And despite how much I've played it, I was happy to buy it again off the Virtual Console today.

Crazy (read: masochistically challenging) stuff you can try:

No energy tanks: Do not pick up any energy tanks. I've only ever really attempted this once, and with hefty use of emulation and save states (so it really doesn't count). I did manage to make it to Ridley on the SNES this way, though. Lower Norfair gets really frustrating.

Fun fact: if you fall into that pit with the bird with only your starting energy, you cannot super jump back out. You'll only be able to get up maybe halfway before your energy goes critical.

Fun fact #2: It is impossible to beat the game this way. I found this out the hard way, somehow getting lucky and beating Ridley, making it to Mother Brain, and dying to her undodgeable, story-required attack. You need at least 4 energy tanks. Blegh.

No Miniboss No Boss run: get as high a percentage as you can without fighting any boss or miniboss after the bomb boss. Starts off easy enough, gets downright mean in Norfair (no Varia suit). Navigating Maridia (no gravity suit) will make you want to break your controller, as it requires crafty use of the ice beam and super missiles. That's about where I stop usually... Definitely not a recommended way to play the game.

le geek
08-20-2007, 09:02 PM
Okay, I am at the area where you get trapped by the one way door a little bit after killing the plant thing and getting the super missiles and charge beam. Then had to call it a night...

Man this game is sweet though, I don't think I've played it since I finally beat the first Metroid (I played Super first) and I'm finally noticing how all the classic enemies have been given 16-bit upgrades. Even the goofy enemies look pretty cool now...

Cheers,
Ben

P.S. Playing on SNES

Lakupo
08-20-2007, 09:09 PM
These days, I complete Super Metroid with a relatively inefficient time of 2:30 (even after... 9 times? 10?), because I love to do all kinds of sequence breaks, but I do them as soon I can, rather than a more streamlined waiting until I have a bunch of abilities and grabbing everything at once. I usually grab the wave beam as soon as I can, though. And this time, I used that wave beam to get to Crocomire, and picked up the super bombs and grappling beam without ever leaving Norfair or getting the ice beam. I don't even really care about insane times, I just love doing stuff I "shouldn't" be doing. :D

This run is going well. After eventually succumbing to PEER PRESSURE and getting the high jump boots, I managed to get around a couple of cliff faces in Norfair that weren't supposed to be bypassed in order to snag a Reserve Tank without the grappling beam, and then the Speed Booster without the wave beam.

I don't need High Jump Boots, and because I so totally don't need them, I get them anyway just to avoid the hassle. Logical, right? Right? And you're supposed to be able to get the Speed Booster without the wave beam (since the grappling beam is supposed to come before the wave beam, and the speed booster before that). But climbing up to the cliff cuts out some pointless caverns!

The mood on Brinstar is incredible; it equals the mood of the first planet area of Metroid Prime (also Brinstar?), which is astounding, as Super Metroid is two console generations separated from Metroid Prime.

I'm playing Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night simultaneously on Wii and PS3; so far I'm enjoying Metroid more...I've played more Castlevania games recently than Metroid games, so maybe I'm just burnt out on Castlevania...who knows.

Prime does not take place on Zebes, it's on Tallon IV (and establishes that the Chozo set down roots everywhere, hence Chozo statues on SR388 in Metroid II, etc.). But yes, Super Metroid sets the mood excellently.

I've played SotN just as much as Super Metroid, and will probably go through it again in a couple of weeks. It's still the best of the Metroidvanias, even though they've gotten pretty close with the Sorrow games. It's really easy, but just going through the castle is such a fun experience. Maybe it's a stretch, but I think playing through the Metroid games and SotN are somewhat comparable to walking a labyrinth, and the meditative state acheived. Okay, maybe it's hard to call something meditative when your hand is cramping from trying to do wall-jump for the third time becuase of the wobbly GameCube D-pad, but I think the gist is clear.

dosboot
08-20-2007, 09:12 PM
Super Metroid, perhaps unfairly, shoulders the image and expectations we have of the Metroid series. And it seems to have happened this way due to the circumstances of the surrounding games in the series. Metroid 1 didn't age too well. Metroid 2 is not too impressive. Then there's Super Metroid which came out in 1994 and is followed by absolutely nothing for 8 years until fusion and prime.

Looking at it this way does it to seem odd to anyone else that Metroid managed to cement itself alongside Mario and Zelda as Nintendo's pillar franchises? It earned that status on Super alone. Maybe there is some explanation in here as to why Metroid is much more popular in America than in Japan. Were Americans more inclined to play their old SNES games and relive Super Metroid during those 8 years or something?

gamin
08-20-2007, 09:18 PM
I've played Super Metriod before years ago, I'd rent it again and again for a while, trying to get further each time. I remember getting as far as a boss that flies down and picks you up, though I don't think it was Ridley.

So, I now finally own this game, and have gotten off to a good start. I still remember the beginning parts pretty well, so that went quickly. Got through Brinstar, and am currently in Norfair, having just got the grappling hook after fighting the boss you have to push back. Great fight, I was stuck on how to win for a while, but when I noticed the spikes on the left side, realized it was a shoving match. Something Super Metroid does really well, and has been echoed by others is that observation tells you what so many other games nowadays will annoyingly tell you in dialog or tutorial.

I'm still going to need the Wave Beam eventually, to get past a couple of barriers that can't otherwise be dealt with, but now that I have the Speed Booster I think I'll go grab the Ice Beam first. Just because I can.

Where's the Wave Beam, and how is it at all needed for the Speed Booster? Must've unwittingly missed it, but got the Speed Booster, Ice Beam and the Super Bomb along with the Grappling Hook.

Lakupo
08-20-2007, 09:27 PM
Okay, this is why I'm so awesome at sequence breaking: I can't remember what I'm supposed to be doing for real. I'm supposed to have the grappling beam now? Where is it? O_o

(I just tried to get the X-Ray Visor without the Grappling Beam... didn't really end well.)

Anyway, I still don't have the Wave Beam or the Grappling Beam, but I've got the Ice Beam and Power Bombs now. And a second Reserve Tank thanks to them. Plus I met the Etecoons, who taught me how to wall jump. Thanks, guys!

I think, and this is mostly a forensic study of the map and not actual memory of what you're supposed to do, because I can't remember either, but I think it's supposed to be Speed Booster, run under the dropping doors to get the Ice Beam, get Power Bombs back in Brinstar, then you go under the Ice Beam area using the Power Bombs, run down to where Crocomire is, then get the Grappling Beam after you beat him. (then you get the wave beam with the grapple)

I skipped the Ice Beam and Power Bombs, and used the wave beam to get through the back door so to speak, killed Crocomire, then in the next room, did a quick run jump from the floating platform to the cliff where you're supposed to grapple to, and got Power Bombs there. Which was good, because I think you need Power Bombs to get the grappling beam. (the falling platforms probably prevent bomb-jumping up the cliff)

I tried to get the X-Ray Visor before the Grapple, but 4 or 5 energy tanks was just not enough to survive the spikes one way, let alone returning.

Maggie
08-20-2007, 09:29 PM
Retro's homages to Super are even more blatant in places: Prime has a puzzle in Magmoor Caverns that's a direct lift from the Maridia entrance.

Incidentally, I love how there's actually puzzles in this game, despite it being a shooty-explorey-adventure. They just come naturally from the game mechanics.

This is exactly what I'm afraid Prime 3 will lose. With Metroid, it's always been really natural like that, like you said.

ringworm
08-20-2007, 09:39 PM
Looking at it this way does it to seem odd to anyone else that Metroid managed to cement itself alongside Mario and Zelda as Nintendo's pillar franchises?
Yeah, I love all Metroid games, even Metroid II, but with the exception of Super Metroid they aren't exactly accessible. As we know with Nintendo nothing matters more than the bottom-line. I'd be curious to see what the sales numbers of Metroid and Metroid II were relative to their development costs, hardware install base, and contemporary software sales.

That being said, I would say that the Metroid series has only really put forward two exceptional titles, in terms of quality (Super and Prime), whereas Mario and Zelda have each put forward at least four.

Something I've always been curious about, does anybody with more Japanese cultural awareness than myself know exactly why the Japanese have never taken to the Metroid franchise?

Kishi
08-20-2007, 09:46 PM
Here's the intended order of events, more or less, with the absolutely crucial stuff in bold:

01. Morphing Ball
02. Missile
03. Bomb
04. Energy Tank
05. Charge Beam
06. Super Missile
07. Hi-Jump Boots
08. Spazer
09. Varia Suit
10. Speed Booster
11. Ice Beam
12. Power Bomb
13. Grappling Beam
14. Wave Beam
15. Reserve Tank
16. X-Ray Scope
17. Gravity Suit
18. Space Jump
19. Plasma Beam
20. Spring Ball
21. Screw Attack
22. Ridley's punk ass
23. Hyper Beam

MCBanjoMike
08-20-2007, 09:52 PM
All right, I give up! I started my run tonight on the old SNES (man, my gamepad start buttons are 6 kinds of messed up) and made it past Kraid and into Norfair proper. I broke sequence by wall jumping up to the wave beam without getting the grapple beam (and several other powerups, by the sounds of things), and now I have the speed booster as well. Maybe I'll go unlock those pillars that require the wave beam and see what's down that way?

I'm not really playing with any particular goal in mind. My last run apparently took me 3:45, and was probably done while I was in university about 5 years ago. I think I'll just wing it and have a good time, maybe do a bit more out of sequence stuff - not something I can recall doing much of in the old days.

Mostly, I just can't believe that this game is actually as good as you all say it is! I mean, I've played through the whole thing something like 4 times, you'd think I'd remember. But I'm constantly finding myself amazed by the atmosphere and incredible attention to detail. My favorite touch is how, when you first blow up a block using super missiles right after acquiring them, a couple of wall crawlies fall off the ceiling. Cute!

SlimJimm
08-20-2007, 09:58 PM
There is something about the introduction to Super Metroid that gives me goose-bumps. When I first heard "The last metroid is in captivity..." being spoken I thought that was the coolest shit in the world and the music for the intro was so incredibly cool and haunting.

Whenever I play this and go get items like the Spazer and X ray I remember when I was young and didnt know how to find all these cool items that arent really needed for the completion of the game. Its pretty neat how they included cool items that made things easier, but not necessary in order to beat the game.

Red Hedgehog
08-20-2007, 10:10 PM
I played through Super Metroid for the first time a few months ago when the denizens of the previous incarnation of Talking Time decided that it was the classic game that I had to play.

They were right.

My favorite part about this game is that the first time I played it, it made me nervous... in a good way.

There were always options about where to go. Should I continue exploring the current area or move on to a new one? Should I go back to a previous area with the new item I acquired, or contnue exploring? Since there wasn't always an obviously "correct" direction to go, I always felt in that back of my head that the choice I made could have been wrong and I could be missing things. That sense of uncertainty while exploring a new area was always awesome.

I won't be replaying this week since I won't have access to my Wii or SNES, but any who want to read about my exploits in playing it through for the first time can do so here. (Scroll to the bottom to read the first post)

Jet Pilot
08-20-2007, 11:05 PM
This is exactly what I'm afraid Prime 3 will lose. With Metroid, it's always been really natural like that, like you said.

The main difference I've seen between the original NES Metroid / SNES Super Metroid and the current iterations such as Metroid Prime Hunters on DS and Metroid Prime Corruption (from what I can tell from all the videos that have been released) is that "I'm all alone" feeling that is so overwhelming in the older titles is notably absent from the current titles. That feeling has a tremendous impact on the feel of the game.

A huge part of the Metroid series revolves around that "alone" feeling.

There were no other bounty hunters to look out for as there are in the current titles.

The majority of the enemies you encounter (with the exception of the main bosses and just a few others such as space pirates) weren't there to hunt down Samus as they do in the current titles. These enemies were just minding their own business on their home planet and if Samus happened to bump into one she'd take some damage...but they weren't gunning for her.

That contributed to that very important "alone" feeling which is what the entire series is (was) based around. Without that feeling, it just doesn't feel like Metroid.

I'll pick up Metroid 3 when it releases next week, but I know from the videos I've seen that it's just not going to give me that Metroid feel. Sure, it will probably be an enjoyable game...but that very important "alone" feeling appears to be missing (again) from this latest installment in the Metroid series.

Tomm Guycot
08-20-2007, 11:37 PM
Jet Pilot - I understand your concerns for Prime 3...but how was Samus not alone in Prime 1 and 2? I totally got that same feeling in those games. Particularly Prime 2 where you had to pass into the dark world away from any semblance of safety.

Anyway, I killed Kraid and did a Norfair run, then left and got power bombs. Am I supposed to go back in? I'm a little confused as to where I'm going from here.

Sarcasmorator
08-20-2007, 11:44 PM
I'm only at the first save point in Brinstar, but man this game is terrific. It's been way too long since I played through it, and I'd forgotten how spectacular the sound was. The engine noise of Samus' ship, Ridley's screams, the whirring of the eye cameras, it's all great. And the music!

Tomm Guycot
08-20-2007, 11:54 PM
So I missed the meeting, but how does everyone rectify that the "best game evar" has such stiff, less-than-ideally responsive controls?

ringworm
08-21-2007, 12:03 AM
Heh I wasn't sure I wanted to post about that Tomm, mostly because I keep wanting to hold this idea that Super Metroid is unassailable in my mind as a piece of flawless gaming. I think you could easily chalk it up to simply the technology of the time, but I was definately having some (relatively minor) issues controlling Samus. I even popped in my SNES version to make sure it wasn't just the Wii.

I think the way I ultimately rationalize this is the fact that I had never noticed it in the past, and the fact that I notice it now is just a sign of the times and what I expect now. I guess sort of like how in retrospect people in the 1700s dressed like idiots and didn't even have electric guitars, but I can still think Mozart was a genius.

Kishi
08-21-2007, 12:57 AM
Jet Pilot - I understand your concerns for Prime 3...but how was Samus not alone in Prime 1 and 2? I totally got that same feeling in those games. Particularly Prime 2 where you had to pass into the dark world away from any semblance of safety.

You also had to touch base with an intrusive NPC after each major boss.


So I missed the meeting, but how does everyone rectify that the "best game evar" has such stiff, less-than-ideally responsive controls?

It...doesn't? I seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

Makkara
08-21-2007, 01:09 AM
The controls are excellent. I mean, Samus' movements have some weight to them, so you're not going to instantly go from a standstill to moving at full speed in the other direction, but then this isn't Mega Man. Once you learn the controls, you're not going to get any nasty surprises. They're consistent, and they work.

The only problem I can think of is that it's hard to dash, jump and shoot at the same time, but that's really just a limitation of the hardware.

Merus
08-21-2007, 01:31 AM
My theory here's that the occasional parts of the game where Super makes it clear that you're in enemy territory (the bomb boss, the one-way door in Brinstar, the many sudden boss fights [and I mean sudden, the boss you need to push into the acid and then comes back is just plonked down seemingly randomly - most bosses in the Prime games are easily anticipated]) is what contibutes to the feeling of claustrophobia and being alone that's signature to the early Metroid games. Prime, despite its quality, never really took that opportunity, as they felt that exploration was the core of the Metroid series, which is close but not quite there.

If you take a look at Zero Mission, they do the same thing a couple of times: confound expectations, drop surprises. There's a very different feel to those portions of the game.

I'd almost go so far as to say that in Super, exploration is a kind of attack. You're beating the base, outsmarting the traps, using every tool at your disposal to push your infiltration further.

Sanagi
08-21-2007, 02:02 AM
Reason #47 why Metroid Prime 2: Echoes was disappointing: No sequence breaking! (Well, okay, except for intense exercises in frustration that require getting outside of the map and then back in...)

I would agree that somewhat stiff controls hold Super Metroid back from perfection. Having to press down twice to morph into a ball is particularly suboptimal, and trying to control the speed booster's flight is pretty awkward.

Lakupo
08-21-2007, 04:02 AM
3:06, 85%! Not my best time, too much dilly-dallying and going "Hm, I forgot what's over there... oh, nothing", but a good time-to-item ratio for me.

I had to go on and finish it once I started. I needed to get the game out of my head so I could get back to Persona 3. CAN'T SLEEP, METROID WILL EAT ME.

I hope people know the shockingly fast way to kill Draygon in Maridia. It's so much fun. :D

So I missed the meeting, but how does everyone rectify that the "best game evar" has such stiff, less-than-ideally responsive controls?

Have you... been playing Zero Mission lately? Because Zero Mission takes the Super Metroid controls and cranks up the speed exponentially. The Super Metroid controls are great on their own, but compared to Zero Mission, they might seem a bit sluggish. If you haven't been playing Zero Mission, then... you're just crazy. :)

Seriously, you can't do the crazy wall-jumping stuff we've been doing if the controls were "stiff".

Having to press down twice to morph into a ball is particularly suboptimalGo back and play Metroid 1 and tell me not being able to crouch is better!

Oh yeah, shinesparking fun. Underneath the statue that held the Charge Beam in Brinstar, through the pipe that's opened up with a power bomb, there's a long passageway half-filled with water, and you're supposed to have the gravity suit to speed boost through the blocks and get the energy tank. Well! There's just enough ground above water to charge the shinespark, jump into the water, and launch yourself through the blocks, all without the gravity suit. It's not easy, and took me a few tries because of the control shift when you're jumping through the surface of the water. I was pretty happy when I managed to do that. :D

Anonymooo
08-21-2007, 04:27 AM
ZM and Fusion are a bit friendlier in that regard, since they tell you where you're missing expansions... and I can't argue that that's not good design, but mystery has been an important part of Metroid since the beginning (although the original is obviously too mysterious). It's made for people who like scrounging everywhere on the map.BLUNDER SENSE ACTIVATE. I'm currently stuck, trying to remember/figure out what the hell to do after beating the gigantic plant-boss thing. It'll come to me eventually, I just end up roaming around the map until I find a new item that'll open up more of the map, or bomb that random corner that opens up even MORE of the map. God, I love this game.

mr_bungle700
08-21-2007, 05:01 AM
About the controls: I've always figured that because Samus is a walking tank it makes sense for her to move like one.

Merus
08-21-2007, 06:21 AM
That was the reasoning given for Prime's controls, I recall.

I'm currently stuck, trying to remember/figure out what the hell to do after beating the gigantic plant-boss thing.

I am assuming that you tried climbing up it after you died? Because if you did, then the way forward is pretty obvious.

I have noticed that they're actually not too bad at guiding you through the game. You usually run into a place with an obstacle just before you get the thing that'll clear it, so you know where to try it, and just when that starts getting complicated they close off half the map and then send you down a shaft so you're basically forced to reevaluate your position in that new subset. And once you work out how to get back up the shaft, you have so many new abilities that it's pretty easy to wonder whether it's going to be more fun to go back to the places you've been with all your new stuff, or move forward into this new passage where you just came out.

It's only towards the end of the game, after the Wrecked Ship, where it starts getting unclear where to go.

Petie
08-21-2007, 06:30 AM
An hour into the game, about to go up against Crocomire. I wasted a good chunk of time in the basement of Meridia because I'd forgotten what to do past beating Kraid.

Meridia's music has always creeped me out. Combined with the pre-Gravity suit sluggishness of Samus in water, Meridia stands as the creepiest section of the game for me. As in, I have dreamed of drowning while the Meridia theme was playing.

It seems to me that the Wall Jump is a bit easier using the Classic controller and the VC version of the game. Either that or a year or so away from the game made me more patient with it.

ringworm
08-21-2007, 06:41 AM
How long is the game for a basic first-time player? 6 hours? 7? I love the length of the game. I prefer condensed, awesome experiences to artificially stretched out ones, but can you imagine how widely this game would be panned by critics today if it were finished in just 3 hours?

Petie
08-21-2007, 06:50 AM
How long is the game for a basic first-time player? 6 hours? 7? I love the length of the game. I prefer condensed, awesome experiences to artificially stretched out ones, but can you imagine how widely this game would be panned by critics today if it were finished in just 3 hours?

I think my first playthrough was 5:08 or something like that, and even that felt a bit long.

Seriously, if you're trying to stop a galactic infestation by a bunch of parasitic jellyfish, you'd better do it quickly.

Brickroad
08-21-2007, 08:28 AM
Finished yesterday with 38% item collection in just a hair over an hour.

My only quibble is that the classic controller feels a lot different than an SNES controller. This is a problem I probably would have never noticed in any game other than Super Metroid, and honestly, after a few minutes of running around it wasn't much of a problem at all. The only thing that still bothers me is that the - button feels a lot further away from the d-pad than the SNES pad's Select button did. I used to be able to swap weapons on the fly while running through zones, but I now find I have to stop moving just to reach my item select. Overall not a big deal.

Had only one really close call, as I killed Phantoon with a platry 29 energy remaining (and went as low as 9 during the fight). Phantoon is pretty much always the stickiest part of my run. I only grab three energy tanks (and two reserve tanks, which start out empty) on the way, and there's only one convenient pack of Super Missiles. I use two shinesparks to get to the Wrecked Ship (three if I grab the Ice Beam early) so I always end up at Phantoon's door with little in the way of energy and firepower.

It took me about 15 tries to get the mockball to work correctly, though I can't say if this was just lack of practice or the fault of the new controller.

Either way, very pleased overall... it's SUPER METROID, man. Going to do another run tonight and see if I can improve myself any.

Merus
08-21-2007, 08:50 AM
I distinctly recall that Phantoon has two different attack cycles depending on what weapons you use on him. I think one's a beam with something turned off. I was fooling around one day and discovered it, so it might warrant further investigation.

Brickroad
08-21-2007, 08:56 AM
I distinctly recall that Phantoon has two different attack cycles depending on what weapons you use on him. I think one's a beam with something turned off. I was fooling around one day and discovered it, so it might warrant further investigation.

He does. His typical attack is "fly around in ghost form dropping little fiery things". He does this after every corporeal phase where you can hit him. If, however, you hit him with a Super Missile, he does his "sit at the top throwing wave of fiery things" attack instead. The former is shorter but harder to avoid, the second is longer but very easy to avoid.

The quickest way to take Phantoon down that I know of is to wait until he goes corporeal, then belt him with two Missiles and immediately follow up with a Super. (Or, if you're really good, charged Wave/Spazer/Ice, one Missile, one Super.) I believe that in a perfect fight you can kill him at the end of the third cycle if you do this. Unfortunately the MOST Supers I can possibly have when I get to Phantoon's room is two, which means I get stuck in his more damaging pattern more often than not.

Jet Pilot
08-21-2007, 09:52 AM
Jet Pilot - I understand your concerns for Prime 3...but how was Samus not alone in Prime 1 and 2?

I was primarily referring to the two latest Metroid titles...Metroid Prime Hunters for DS and Metroid Prime 3 Corruption for Wii.

With these two latest installments, Metroid has lost that feeling of isolation which was so central to the series in the earlier titles.

Super Metroid does a great job of presenting that feeling of isolation to the player. First, with the short space colony intro, followed by the landing on planet Zebes...that feeling of isolation just overwhelms the player and adds tremendously to the atmosphere of the game.

ringworm
08-21-2007, 09:59 AM
I was primarily referring to the two latest Metroid titles...Metroid Prime Hunters for DS and Metroid Prime 3 Corruption for Wii.
You've played through Corruption? How long was it? It sounds like its going to be pretty lengthy. Try not to post any spoilers though!

Brickroad
08-21-2007, 10:13 AM
Why's that? I killed him last night (my stopping point before setting up my (ugh) PS3) and I had like 20 Supers.

There's only one pack along the route I take (the one through the first red door right after you enter green Brinstar that requires either Speed Booster or mockball to get); all the rest are too far off the path.

You need one to get into the Wrecked Ship and another to open a door inside, and I use a third to kill the eyeball door. In retrospect I should probably kill that door with regular Missiles in the spirit of conservation, but old habits die hard.

Tomm Guycot
08-21-2007, 10:39 AM
I was primarily referring to the two latest Metroid titles...Metroid Prime Hunters for DS and Metroid Prime 3 Corruption for Wii.

With these two latest installments, Metroid has lost that feeling of isolation which was so central to the series in the earlier titles.

Super Metroid does a great job of presenting that feeling of isolation to the player. First, with the short space colony intro, followed by the landing on planet Zebes...that feeling of isolation just overwhelms the player and adds tremendously to the atmosphere of the game.

I was thinking about this recently (due to my "tutorials are here to stay" comment in another thread) and I think the best solution would be for Samus to start off with radio communications to orient the player, and then have the radio go dead. I think this would create a REAL sense of isolation, since you've actually interacted w/ someone else and then they were removed.

Beyond that, I agree with ringworm. Don't make damning comments on games that nobody's played yet.

Jet Pilot
08-21-2007, 10:41 AM
You've played through Corruption? How long was it? It sounds like its going to be pretty lengthy. Try not to post any spoilers though!

No...as I said in my first post (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=30960&postcount=81), I was basing my initial impressions of the game from the videos that were posted several days ago which show the first hour of the game uncut (they were subsequently taken down because the info was under embargo at the time...however, they were also posted on YouTube and you can find links to all 5 segments HERE (http://gonintendo.com/?p=23190)). Don't watch if you don't want to see some minor spoilers.

From what the videos showed, in the initial hour of the game, I didn't get any of that feeling of isolation that the series is known for. Click the pic below for a screne grab of one of the videos to show my point. I guess it could change as the game progresses, but we won't know for certain until next week.

Jet Pilot
08-21-2007, 10:51 AM
Beyond that, I agree with ringworm. Don't make damning comments on games that nobody's played yet.

I'm not condemning anything (I did say I was going pick up MP3 and I would probably enjoy it). However, I did comment that (see post just above this one), based on the videos we've all had access to of the game (no unmarked spoilers given), MP3 just doesn't seem present us with that isolating feeling that the Metroid series is known for. We won't know for certain until next week, but right now the videos don't give me that Metroid feeling.

ringworm
08-21-2007, 12:48 PM
One thing I've learned over the last, I dunno, 20+ years of gaming, is that watching someone else play a game is almost never a good substitute for doing it yourself. Just saying.

Brickroad
08-21-2007, 01:02 PM
Everyone here knows how to wall jump, right? I don't think I could sleep tonight not knowing everyone here can wall jump.

Mightyblue
08-21-2007, 01:05 PM
I can do it well enough to sequence break a little. I ended up getting the wave beam before the ice beam, and a couple power-ups before I really should have.

Jet Pilot
08-21-2007, 01:13 PM
One thing I've learned over the last, I dunno, 20+ years of gaming, is that watching someone else play a game is almost never a good substitute for doing it yourself. Just saying.

No substituting anything here. I absolutely plan on buying and playing the game myself. Having said that, I have a feeling that all the NPC's and additional bounty hunters that showed up in the video will also show up in the actual game.

I was purely commenting on the "feel" I was getting about the lack of an isolated atmosphere displayed in the video. Watch it and see for yourself. Please don't put words in my mouth. I wasn't reviewing the game here people.

Zef
08-21-2007, 01:43 PM
Personally, I can't understand all this talk about "isolation" and whatnot. It's probable that I simply never got it --I leapt into the NES scene straight from the 2600-- because, to me, Samus was just like any other videogame hero, thrust into the quest all an her lonesome simply by virtue of being the player avatar. You know, just like Mario. He just charged into hordes of Koopa Troopas and I never got the impression that his was a solitary quest. When Samus did the same thing, only in four directions instead of one, isolation would have been the last thing that could have crossed my mind. It's possible that other people "got it" while I didn't, but I'd question that such themes were deliberately put there by the creators.

So when the franchise started adding allies for Samus to interact with in-game --the baby Metroid, the Dachora and the Etecoons, Adam, U-Mos, so on and so forth-- I just took it as a development of the series, not as the loss of this much-vaunted isolation. In fact, I'm intrigued even further by the appearance of these bounty hunters: throughout the games, Samus seems more like a very deliberate "protector of the galaxy" whose task happens to intersect with the Federation's needs. I always wanted to see her getting actual contracts and jobs, and the presence of other hunters might be a step in that direction.* Besides, it's very likely that they'll all end up as rivals, then enemies, and finally boss encounters anyway, and I very much doubt that they'll fight alongside Samus for more than a one or two isolated (heh) instances.

While we're at it, how would you describe this atmosphere of "isolation" that the Metroid series supposedly has, and why is it so essential to have it in order for a Metroid game to feel like Metroid?

* Disclaimer: I never played MP: Hunters

alexb
08-21-2007, 01:50 PM
How does one describe tone? Well, the music has a lot to do with it. The first game has all sorts of creepy tunes and sound effects. And there's the fact the only things in the environment that aren't hostile to you in the first game were silent, dead Chozo statues. Others have talked about the deserted space station and ghost ship in Super Metroid. Metroid had a sort of gloomy feel. It was the future, but everything was kind of derelict and somber.

Tomm Guycot
08-21-2007, 02:08 PM
Everyone here knows how to wall jump, right? I don't think I could sleep tonight not knowing everyone here can wall jump.

I know HOW to wall jump, just like I know HOW to bomb jump. But in Super Metroid, I suck pretty badly at both of them.

Interestingly enough, and something I should point out in the hate-filled Metroid Prime 3 thread, is that after Super Metroid, Yokoi said that if there was another Metroid game, it wouldn't feature Metroids at all and would just be about Samus off doing something else.

We have yet to get that. Echoes was damn close, and certainly as close as we've gotten. * So to all you people who feel like Metroid NEEDS loneliness and Mother Brain and Metroids and Zebes... you make Yokoi cry.

* I don't count sidestories, so Hunters is excluded.

Parish
08-21-2007, 02:24 PM
I think much of Metroid's ineffable appeal and "isolation," and something that greatly differentiates it from something like Mario, is the sense of being thrust into a vast labyrinth that you have to unravel on your own. Almost every action game prior to Metroid -- Pitfall II being one of the incredibly few exceptions -- was strictly linear. You had a proscribed path, and there was little question about where to go: You moved to the right.

The original Metroid begins by breaking you of that habit. Move to the right and you find a wall that can't be passed until you move left and get the Maru-Mari. My first experience was a pretty bewildering experience for me, honestly. I kept climbing this shaft, and climbing, and climbing, and when I reached the top there was no goal. The game kept going. It wasn't like Mario, where everything had been broken neatly into discrete levels. When you completed Metroid, it was because you had mapped and mastered the game, alone, against all the odds.

Super Metroid surrendered a little bit of that by giving you maps of places you hadn't yet seen, but everything was so desolate and decrepit that you still felt cut off. You begin the game in a lab of dead scientists; you arrive on Zebes in the midst of a dreary rain storm, picking your way through the ruins of an enemy base you had already destroyed. It was oppressive, it was gloomy, it was atmospheric.

Metroid Prime had that same feeling. Metroid Fusion and Echoes didn't. Corruption has it least of all.

ringworm
08-21-2007, 02:27 PM
Corruption has it least of all.
EMBARGO BROKEN!

Seriously though, while not exactly a surprise that isolation is not a key component of Corruption, it does seem like you are saying it "doesn't feel like Metroid" which is disheartening in a way I didn't think I could be disheartened this close to release.

Kishi
08-21-2007, 02:28 PM
Interestingly enough, and something I should point out in the hate-filled Metroid Prime 3 thread, is that after Super Metroid, Yokoi said that if there was another Metroid game, it wouldn't feature Metroids at all and would just be about Samus off doing something else.

[...]

So to all you people who feel like Metroid NEEDS loneliness and Mother Brain and Metroids and Zebes... you make Yokoi cry.

So, which is it? Did Yokoi say "no Metroids" or "no Metroids, plus plenty of NPCs and dialogue"?

Also, I'd love to know what Sakamoto had to say about this.

Maggie
08-21-2007, 02:32 PM
Another interesting thing is that the Metroid Prime games are, as far as I know, the only Metroids where Samus actually saves a world, instead of just wiping out Metroids.

On Tallon IV, you're pretty much just saving it as a bonus, you're really there to eradicate Prime and stop the pirates from getting their hands on phazon, but in Echoes, you are actively, deliberately setting out to save Aether for the Luminoth. And I thought it worked pretty well.

But that being said, I'm still nervous about Corruption. I"m going to buy it anyway and I bet I'll like it. It's just easy for me to dwell on these kinds of things before I actually get the game. Ah, well.

I sorta lumped Metroid and Super Metroid together, since it seems like you blow up large parts of Zebes every time you go there.

Parish
08-21-2007, 02:56 PM
EMBARGO BROKEN!

Seriously though, while not exactly a surprise that isolation is not a key component of Corruption, it does seem like you are saying it "doesn't feel like Metroid" which is disheartening in a way I didn't think I could be disheartened this close to release.
Don't read too much into that -- I haven't touched or seen the game since E3. And I was deliberately neutral about whether or not it's a good thing, because honestly I don't know. I need to play it first.

Guy
08-21-2007, 03:13 PM
It's been so long since I've seriously played Super Metroid. I got it on the Virtual Console yesterday and today I forgot to go after Crocomire in Norfair after beating Kraid. I thought I was supposed to go to Maridia or the ruined ship for some reason.

Tomm Guycot
08-21-2007, 03:38 PM
So, which is it? Did Yokoi say "no Metroids" or "no Metroids, plus plenty of NPCs and dialogue"?

Also, I'd love to know what Sakamoto had to say about this.

Since I haven't played Corruption, I was pretty clearly talking about Echoes--which you all complain as not feeling like Metroid. However, it took place on a different planet with different problems, and I loved it for that.

Zef
08-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Oh, I agree that Metroid --Super Metroid, I should clarify, though Fusion and ZM are cut from the same cloth-- excels at instilling a sense of gloom and oppression, that you're alone against these armies of natural and artificial beasts. The original Metroid and Metroid II failed to do this merely because the technology didn't allow the developers to build such ambiance (though Tourian and the Queen Metroid's lair tried real hard.) What I contest is that being alone in an oppressive, hostile environment equals isolation throughout the game as a whole. When Samus arrived on Zebes the second time, in the driving storm, I felt like a pissed-off avenger who had just been lured into a trap, not as a warrior who had just been cut off from the rest of the world. And, after the visit to old Tourian, I thought of Samus as a one-woman invasion force that kept decimating everything Zebes threw at her --at least, until the derelict ship and Maridia. Then I felt the isolation, in part thanks to the amazingly spooky ambiance and music --you'll recall, the music in Brinstar, Crateria, and Norfair is more suited to the action and exploration aspects of the game, whereas the sombre tunes in the waterlogged areas are much more subdued. Also, while other areas in Zebes pretty much burst with life, the ship and Maridia were relatively deserted. That's what isolation means to me, personally: to find Samus in an environment so bleak and inhospitable that even natural life is largely absent. She might still be alone when she's fighting the Space Pirates in the heart of Norfair, miles and miles beneath the surface of the planet, but the very presence of those Pirates means she's back in some sort of living civilization that she can relate to at some level (even if that level means a Spazer shot to the face.)

Of course, that's just my take on it, and it's perfectly fine if you feel differently about it.

IMO, the [Gamecube] Prime games do work the isolation aspect deliberately. I think it's because of how the Scan Logs eliminate direct, one-to-one contact with those who wrote them (unlike, for instance, speaking with U-Mos in Prime 2.) It gives the impression that whoever left those entries is long gone, leaving behind nothing but silent ruins, a few scavengers, and lifeless words for Samus to interpret. Again, the feeling of isolation comes from how something warm and alive used to dwell there, but things took such a drastic turn everything was wiped out and you're too late to do anything about it (see: the abandoned Fortress, the Chozo ruins in the first Prime, pretty much the entire Dark Aether.)

I'm pretty confident that Corruption will retain some of that. I, for one, would enjoy fighting an all-out war with the Space Pirates, especially since NO more Metroids should exist after this game, save for those on SR388. However, the mechanics of the series demand that Samus explore, and exploration in Metroid has typically led to just the kind of settings that inspire that sense of isolation (see above for examples.) I doubt Retro would try, or even want, to break away from that.

Maggie
08-21-2007, 04:01 PM
I don't have Super Metroid in any form (why didn't they release it for the GBA? Why, Nintendo!?) but I'm replaying Zero Mission. It's reminding me how great the mini-bosses in Super were. Well, except for the stupid sea dragon. I always thought that was kind of lame.

But Crocomire and Spore Spawn were both awesome and clever. I kind of think the Primes have done the mid-boss thing pretty well so far, too, so no complaints there.

But I do wish Zero Mission had come up with a better version of Kraid. He's a big, stationary idiot. And that would be fine, except that it's almost identical to the Kraid in Super Metroid, only shorter and less interesting. There's got to be more they could have done with him.

Also, no mini-Kraid. America loves mini-Kraid. Where the hell was mini-Kraid!?

Lakupo
08-21-2007, 05:00 PM
I just finished Zero Mission again this afternoon... 1:53, %63, Normal. (last year's replay was on Hard) I sequence-break the hell out of Zero Mission so much, I can barely do it the normal way. I always get the Varia immediately after getting the Bombs (when the ZM cart was in store demo GBAs, my little hobby was to get the Varia on each one just for kicks!), and I killed Ridley before even stepping foot in Kraid's Hideout. Once you've done a 15 percent run, where you only have two missles and MAYBE a super missle, anything's possible. (...except maybe <2 hours with 100 percent, and 15 percent on hard. Owww.)

Hrm, there's no spoiler texting functionality here, is there? I'll be vague then. The extra stuff in Zero Mission tying into Super Metroid is mostly cool, but it does kind of kill any of the... "romanticism" that one of Super Metroid's areas had. If it had any. Just a little bit of "trying too hard to tie everything together" in Zero Mission. Just a little bit.

Since I'm on the full-on Metroid kick, might as well start Fusion... maybe II first. :D

Jet Pilot
08-21-2007, 05:05 PM
Also, while other areas in Zebes pretty much burst with life, the ship and Maridia were relatively deserted.

IMO, the difference between that life you refer to and for example, the enemies in MPH for DS is that while Zebes bursts with life, that life (for the most part) are creatures in their natural habitat just doing their own thing, whereas the life in MPH are enemies gunning for Samus. Those two scenarios give the game a completely different atmosphere.

I would liken it to being in the forest with nothing but wild animals. Sure, there's life out there (bears, deer, squirrels, etc) but you sure still feel isolated because those animals could care less about your presence (unless you decide to piss them off, that is). The same holds true about most of the life in Super Metroid. These creatures are just minding their business in their natural habitat and could care less that Samus is there (unless she bumps into one of them).

IMO, the [Gamecube] Prime games do work the isolation aspect deliberately. I think it's because of how the Scan Logs eliminate direct, one-to-one contact with those who wrote them (unlike, for instance, speaking with U-Mos in Prime 2.) It gives the impression that whoever left those entries is long gone, leaving behind nothing but silent ruins, a few scavengers, and lifeless words for Samus to interpret.

I like that explanation. :)

mr_bungle700
08-21-2007, 05:09 PM
I've seen a couple of mentions of people having difficulty bomb jumping in Super Metroid, so here's the trick: drop the bombs in a steady rhythm. Be consistent and pace your button presses evenly. If you're going too fast or too slow you won't make any progress, so adjust your speed until you find the sweet spot. Just keep the pace consistent once you've gotten it.

I would liken it to being in the forest with nothing but wild animals. Sure, there's life out there (bears, deer, squirrels, etc) but you sure still feel isolated because those animals could care less about your presence (unless you decide to piss them off, that is). The same holds true about most of the life in Super Metroid. These creatures are just minding their business in their natural habitat and could care less that Samus is there (unless she bumps into one of them).

THIS JUST IN: Samus fighting bears would be awesome.

SlimJimm
08-21-2007, 05:11 PM
I kinda hated the Maridia area because some of the monsters were pretty annoying (snail-things, green eyeball-things, and smaller dragoons) and the sinking sand pits didnt help at all!

Kishi
08-21-2007, 05:21 PM
The extra stuff in Zero Mission tying into Super Metroid is mostly cool, but it does kind of kill any of the... "romanticism" that one of Super Metroid's areas had. If it had any. Just a little bit of "trying too hard to tie everything together" in Zero Mission. Just a little bit.

Don't worry, the Mother Ship is not the Wrecked Ship. There is an underground area near the Chozo ruins that does seem to be based on the Wrecked Ship, though.

Zeroneight
08-21-2007, 05:34 PM
Could someone please explain how to do the mockball? I've never been able to pull it off, and I'm not sure if it's me or the directions I found somewhere:

Do a running jump, let go of everything, push down, and just before hitting the ground, push down and jump.

Is that correct?

le geek
08-21-2007, 07:01 PM
Okay, I am at the area where you get trapped by the one way door a little bit after killing the plant thing and getting the super missiles and charge beam. Then had to call it a night...

Say whatdayaknow... a run button you say??? DOH!

Now at Kraid's Lair...

Cheers,
Ben

Alastor
08-21-2007, 07:15 PM
This is my first time playing Super Metroid. 2 hours in, I've just picked up the power bombs and am now journeying far and wide, looking for something new to uncover.

It's fun so far, but I have to be honest you guys. I'm not finding it to be the orgasmic, life-altering experience that the world has made it out to be. It could be my utter lack of fuzzy nostalgia for the game, or my usual disinterest in Metroidvania-style games (especially where sequence-breaking is concerned).

But I do have a soul! I'll reserve judgment until I've finished this.

Kishi
08-21-2007, 07:17 PM
Could someone please explain how to do the mockball? I've never been able to pull it off, and I'm not sure if it's me or the directions I found somewhere:

Do a running jump, let go of everything, push down, and just before hitting the ground, push down and jump.

Is that correct?

http://www.metroid2002.com/3/techniques_mockball.php
http://www.metroid2002.com/3/early_items_super_missiles.php

Those are the only instructions I needed. After that, it's just a matter of practice to get the timing down.

Dart Zaidyer
08-21-2007, 07:25 PM
Could someone please explain how to do the mockball? I've never been able to pull it off, and I'm not sure if it's me or the directions I found somewhere:

Do a running jump, let go of everything, push down, and just before hitting the ground, push down and jump.

Is that correct?

Here's how you do it: Get a running start with the dash button, then jump. Once you let go of jump and start falling, hold Jump again and tap down on the D-Pad so that Samus is aiming down, but her momentum is still preserved. Then, just before you hit the ground, morph and quickly press forward to retain your speed. (You can let go of Jump during this step.) You want to time it so that Samus will be in the middle of the morphing animation once she actually touches the floor. If you did it right, Samus will glide across the ground at running speed without bouncing.
You can use this trick to bypass closing gates without the Speed Booster, which is quite handy as soon as you enter Brinstar or if you want the Ice Beam early.

Jeanie
08-21-2007, 10:13 PM
Everyone here knows how to wall jump, right? I don't think I could sleep tonight not knowing everyone here can wall jump.

Hey, um, I beat the game when it first came out without EVER getting the wall jump. I'm playing it again, and I've just now figured it out but i can't get it to work 100% of time, more like 50% if I'm lucky. And I never heard of the Mockball until this site.

That pit where the whatever they ares teach you the wall jump, I used to come back when i had the Space Jump.

gamin
08-21-2007, 10:27 PM
Just finished a harrowing battle with the Phantom in the Wrecked Ship. My last save was in Brinstar, because I assumed I could save in the ship, only to find the power cut. Started with 3 full energy tanks and near the end of the battle I was down to 16 of the final tank, just as the ghost was swinging towards me at top speed I realized it was now or never, and managed to get in a final Super Missile to defeat him. I was a bit of a nervous wreck afterwards, so I quickly went back to the save (thankfully now working) and am done for the night.

Mightyblue
08-21-2007, 10:44 PM
You...only had 3 energy tanks in the Crashed Ship? I think I had 11 or 12 at that point.

gamin
08-21-2007, 10:53 PM
Hmm...guess I'm sorta rushing through. Didn't really check out Brinstar that much with the Grappling Hook or the Speed Boost, just enough to find the X-Ray vision after I left Norfair.

Tomm Guycot
08-21-2007, 11:00 PM
Just finished a harrowing battle with the Phantom in the Wrecked Ship. My last save was in Brinstar, because I assumed I could save in the ship, only to find the power cut. Started with 3 full energy tanks and near the end of the battle I was down to 16 of the final tank, just as the ghost was swinging towards me at top speed I realized it was now or never, and managed to get in a final Super Missile to defeat him. I was a bit of a nervous wreck afterwards, so I quickly went back to the save (thankfully now working) and am done for the night.

Weird. This EXACT thing just happened to me.

Klatrymadon
08-22-2007, 04:13 AM
Hiya, folks. I just thought I'd sign up to thank Ben for those lovely poster shots. I'd never seen the parts above Kraid's head before, and felt like I'd discovered something life-changing for a moment there.

So anyway, what about that Super Metroid, eh? Best game ever, la'. Most of its unique qualities, in terms of its artistic goals, its gameplay and its level design have already been thoroughly ruminated, so what can this zealot add to the discussion? I suppose one thing that most people don't notice until they've been through the game a billion times is just how much foresight the developers display in terms of the geographical positioning of each area (not to mention that each area is fully integrated with the rest of 'em via sneaky little tunnels and whatnot). None of the maps in the other Metroid games would make any sense at all if you could pull the camera back and perceive the world as a whole, but Super Metroid's clearly would. The waterlogged parts of Crateria hint at what you eventually discover to be Maridia, Brinstar turns a burnt orange as you draw nearer to Norfair, etc.

I know this isn't strictly related to gameplay, and probably quite unimportant in the eyes of most gamers, but a world as cohesive as SM's Zebes is what I'd like to see at some point in the future. I'm bored of everything being split up into bitesized 'hubs' that you can only access in a certain order (MP2 and Fusion). You could argue that SM does similar things - there are certainly parts where you're "locked" into an area until you find what you need to progress - but in the end you still have a series of areas that are seamlessly interwoven.

You can file me under "Prime 3 haters", I suppose, because the impact that the early Metroid games had on me is such that I find the artistic deviations (and level design and physics deviations) in the newer games faintly depressing! I don't want another Super Metroid - let's get that tired old misconception out of the way. I want a game that puts it to shame; that makes Zebes look a bore. It's a fucking lofty wish, I know, but as I always argue, a lot of the disregarded elements of its 'template' (which, although I think it's the best game ever, should be treated as rudimentary and built on) have been ones that I would consider essential in 'evolving' the things that make Metroid special. Let's keep expanding on what Metroid does best, not looking to other franchises for ideas, eh Nintendo? Metroid's always been a leader, so it's sad to see it starting to borrow done-to-death conventions from elsewhere. It should be trying to outdo itself. I'll still play Prime 3, though, and love it, and then spend the next 10 years bemoaning Rundus and all those other cookie-cutter filler characters. On the bloody IGN boards. This is probably some of the most scatterbrained dross I've ever posted anywhere, so I'll stop here.

Oh, and although I like my forum introductions to be as warm as possible, I have to say that the idea that SM has restrictive controls is ridiculous. You have to play this game more than twice to realize the extent to which you can make Samus... well, your bitch. You'll soon be single-wall-wall-jumping at 100bpm, folks. ;)

Hope you first-time players are all having a blast. I can't tell you how much I envy you.

Next week: a petulant rant on the slow rape of the character of Samus Aran.

MCBanjoMike
08-22-2007, 05:54 AM
Weird. This EXACT thing just happened to me.

Whoa, is there some kind of conspiracy at work here? I arrived with 4 energy tanks and 2 super missiles, and the battle was tense. I think the lowest I got was to about 21 energy or so, although my very last hit might have brought me even lower! After finishing the ghost ship, I ran around collecting tanks and my max energy tripled in about 30 minutes of game time.

As for what Klatrymadon said about the cohesiveness of Zebes in Super Metroid, I whole heartedly agree. In Echoes, it's so cut and dried that it's practically painful: beat the boss and U-Mos gives you the "key" to the next section. This leads to some really compartmentalized gameplay, where you're stuck in one section at a time for long stretches.

Super Metroid, on the other hand, really mixes up the locales. You spend a few moments in Crateria and then you're shuttled off to Brinstar. As soon as you start to get comfy in Brinstar, it's off to Norfair to get the high jump boots (unless you're one of those crazies who just doesn't get them). Once you have the power bombs, savvy players can spend some time fruitlessly exploring the basement of Maridia. You're never uncovering all of the secrets of one area at once, there's usually a little left over to come back to. I guess the big exception there would be the ghost ship, which I tend to clear all at once as soon as I have the grapple beam to get there.

Klatrymadon
08-22-2007, 06:10 AM
In Echoes, it's so cut and dried that it's practically painful: beat the boss and U-Mos gives you the "key" to the next section.

Oh aye, that was one of the problems I had with it. Your "keys" in the early Metroid games are your abilities - they offer loads of potential for improvisation and 'free-form' gameplay. Here you're expected to go around collecting things that have no in-game use.

MP2 took a big step in the right direction as regards art direction, though, and MP3 appears to have at least a few alien-looking environments. Let's hope we're not hit with a double whammy of keys and largely technological environments. :p

Merus
08-22-2007, 06:29 AM
Next week: a petulant rant on the slow rape of the character of Samus Aran.

What, that she has one now?

I've been pretty disappointed that the Prime games haven't done the swimsuit thing, although of course the cheesecake bonus isn't exactly PC these days. I think part of the appeal is that it's such a shift: we're given a glimpse of a second Samus, so I honestly wouldn't mind one bit if we got a short cinema of Samus with her guard down instead of the cheesecake.

One of the things I've always liked about Super Metroid, and something I think is somewhat missing from Castlevania and the later games, is the one-way passages that are sprinkled around. I like that it helps to unify the levels - the Castlevania games usually only have a couple of clearly demarcated entrances to each area, and each section of the castle is totally separate. In SM it's a little more fuzzy: there's a number of ways to go from Brinstar to Crateria, and from Maridia to Brinstar. I think it's also that the powerups are fairly randomly placed - you don't 'finish' Brinstar before you move onto Norfair briefly, and then once you return to Norfair and spend some time there, your next major powerup is back in Brinstar, going up to Crateria and the Wrecked Ship.

Jeanie
08-22-2007, 08:46 AM
So I was playing again this morning, and thanks to my new mastery of the wall jump, I picked up the wave beam well before I got the Grappling Beam. I also, for the first time ever, managed to get that E-tank, Super Missile and Power Bomb pickups from the chamber with the Raccoombs or whatever they're called. I always used to wait until I got the Space Jump before getting those.

Man, how did I ever play without knowing how to wall jump?

Brickroad
08-22-2007, 09:38 AM
So I was playing again this morning, and thanks to my new mastery of the wall jump, I picked up the wave beam well before I got the Grappling Beam. I also, for the first time ever, managed to get that E-tank, Super Missile and Power Bomb pickups from the chamber with the Raccoombs or whatever they're called. I always used to wait until I got the Space Jump before getting those.

Man, how did I ever play without knowing how to wall jump?

Super Metroid is really two games: the game before you learn to wall jump, and the game after.

The first major sequence break I ever did was to get up the orange shaft in Brinstar leading to Crateria and the Wrecked Ship (the one with the orange rippers and a block at the top you have to shoot out) without the Ice Beam by using Super Missiles to clear the monsters and creative wall jumping.

You don't really get anything for it except Power Bombs (which doesn't really save you any time anyway) but I was so proud I felt giddy.

For those still trying to get the mockball to work: it didn't click for me until someone explained it to me like this: build your momentum, jump, aim down, then do Ryu's fireball motion the moment you touch ground. For some reason "morph and press forward" wasn't doing it for me, but "fireball motion" was the magic word. (I still mess it up 9 times out of 10, though.)

Tomm Guycot
08-22-2007, 10:49 AM
I hate doing posts like this but it actually touches on something I was going to say anyway...

I suppose one thing that most people don't notice until they've been through the game a billion times is just how much foresight the developers display in terms of the geographical positioning of each area (not to mention that each area is fully integrated with the rest of 'em via sneaky little tunnels and whatnot). None of the maps in the other Metroid games would make any sense at all if you could pull the camera back and perceive the world as a whole, but Super Metroid's clearly would.

I don't think SM is the only, or even the first, game to do this. Castlevania (part one) did it, Zero Mission did it, and the Prime games do it too--there are tons of passages connecting everything.

You can file me under "Prime 3 haters", I suppose

I need to figure out where you guys found all these playables.

I don't want another Super Metroid - let's get that tired old misconception out of the way. I want a game that puts it to shame

Then play Zero Mission, imo.

I have to say that the idea that SM has restrictive controls is ridiculous. You have to play this game more than twice to realize the extent to which you can make Samus... well, your bitch. You'll soon be single-wall-wall-jumping at 100bpm, folks. ;)

I didn't say I'd only played the game twice--i said I've only played THROUGH the game twice. The first one was a 100% completion game, and the second was years and years later, playing to see how much I remembered. Not a whole lot--but I still nailed 98% items with no strat guide. I'm not a Metroid noob or anything.

I only have to grapple to the Wrecked Ship once to realize how borked the physics are. I realize the NES original has really terrible control too, which is why people keep saying it doesn't hold up--but Fusion and Zero Mission were both fluid and nice.

I have no desire to sequence break - it just isn't how I play games. So I don't really care how many exploits you can use to do crazy things with Samus. Granted, that's cool and gives YOU a lot of replay, but that doesn't fix the weird-ass decisions they made, like forcing you to wait for Samus to turn around, or the physics on the grapple beam. Response time is slower than any action game at the time, and I can't even AIM MANUALLY.

(now for what I was going to say)

I'm judging by your avatar that you've played Contra III for SNES (or Probotector - sounds like you're in the UK?). In that game (two years before Super Metroid) you could hold R and aim in every direction.

For some reason in Super Metroid, I have to hold a button to aim "up at an angle" and another button to aim "down at an angle". Why? That seems like a crappy decision for an action game when its contemporaries are doing one better (but I've betrayed my thesis...)

Everyone complained about aiming being a chore in the Prime games--but nobody points a finger back at Super Metroid. Aren't we supposed to judge games by their contemporaries? WHY is it a bad thing that Prime 3 allows for easier aiming?

So, about that 100% Super Metroid file. I did a LOT of backtracking. Got lost a bunch, would go back to Brinstar, maybe revisit Crateria several times... How is this any different from the Prime games? They are BIGGER games, so of course the backtracking will seem longer - there's more area to cover. all told, Super Metroid isn't THAT large of a game.

All that said, I really like Super Metroid. It's a classic and everyone should play it... but best game ever?

Brickroad
08-22-2007, 11:25 AM
I only have to grapple to the Wrecked Ship once to realize how borked the physics are. I realize the NES original has really terrible control too, which is why people keep saying it doesn't hold up--but Fusion and Zero Mission were both fluid and nice.

I disagree strongly but I suppose it's a matter of taste. I think ZM and Fusion both had inferior physics and control schemes.

That said, the grapple beam is kind of weird until you practice with it a lot and get used to it. But I don't know how else they could have done it, without lifting the physics from something like Bionic Commando -- which excludes a lot of the cool stunts you can pull off with the grapple beam after some practice.

I have no desire to sequence break - it just isn't how I play games. So I don't really care how many exploits you can use to do crazy things with Samus. Granted, that's cool and gives YOU a lot of replay, but that doesn't fix the weird-ass decisions they made, like forcing you to wait for Samus to turn around, or the physics on the grapple beam. Response time is slower than any action game at the time, and I can't even AIM MANUALLY.

Well, those "weird ass decisions" in the physics and controls are for people who do like to sequence break. Maybe that's why you don't dig them while those of us who really get to the heart of SM adore them?

Example: In SM, if you're facing right and tap left, Samus turns around. In most actions games, she would instead walk one pixel left. This kind of precision is, believe it or not, required for some of Samus's more advanced moves. Face left, tap right, and just as you finish turning, hold jump. Samus will spin-jump straight up into the air without any horizontal momentum at all. This is useful in some places, once you know how to do it.

In SM I can usually make Samus do whatever I need her to do, there is a set of rules for how she moves and what the controller input accomplishes that I just don't get out of ZM and Fusion. Wall jumping is totally useless in Fusion, for example, since a wall jump automatically throws Samus some arbitrary distance away from the wall. Why? There's no "in-universe" reason for this -- the designers just don't want you to be able to scale a wall.

For some reason in Super Metroid, I have to hold a button to aim "up at an angle" and another button to aim "down at an angle". Why? That seems like a crappy decision for an action game when its contemporaries are doing one better (but I've betrayed my thesis...)

I much prefer having my two aim buttons, but that's probably only because I'm so used to it. The Fusion/ZM method of aiming did irritate me a lot at first, but I got used to it. In any case, you CAN aim manually just by pressing the direction you want to aim, including diagnols. A talented player could probably play the whole game without using the aim up/down buttons. I think they're just there for those of us who can't pull off that kind of D-pad magic.

So, about that 100% Super Metroid file. I did a LOT of backtracking. Got lost a bunch, would go back to Brinstar, maybe revisit Crateria several times... How is this any different from the Prime games? They are BIGGER games, so of course the backtracking will seem longer - there's more area to cover. all told, Super Metroid isn't THAT large of a game.

Which is why the backtracking isn't so bad in SM as it is in MP. While doodad hunting in SM you would think, "Hey, I forgot about those missiles I saw in Crateria five hours ago," and run back there real quick. In MP it was more like "Oh crap, I forgot about that door I saw in Phazon Mines. Well, it's a twenty-minute treck and three space pirate battles, I'd better get started." ...except in MP they required you to do it at the end, whereas in SM it was optional.

All that said, I really like Super Metroid. It's a classic and everyone should play it... but best game ever?

I really loved Metroid Prime, and part of what I loved about it is that it did new things with the series. I just don't agree that all those new things were good. (I don't understand why people complain about aiming, though... didn't MP have a lock-on?)

And yes, Super Metroid is the best game ever.

Parish
08-22-2007, 11:47 AM
Man, wipe your mouth, both of you. You're foaming.

Destil
08-22-2007, 12:49 PM
I've seen a couple of mentions of people having difficulty bomb jumping in Super Metroid, so here's the trick: drop the bombs in a steady rhythm. Be consistent and pace your button presses evenly. If you're going too fast or too slow you won't make any progress, so adjust your speed until you find the sweet spot. Just keep the pace consistent once you've gotten it.I try this.... know this. But I have no natural rhythm. For one thing the music messes me up, but when I turn the volume down I can't hear the bombs explode, which hurts my timing more. I've even tried a metronome to get my timing down but nothing works for me. Anyone know a piece of music with a beat to bomb-jump to?

Makkara
08-22-2007, 12:59 PM
I have no desire to sequence break - it just isn't how I play games. So I don't really care how many exploits you can use to do crazy things with Samus. Granted, that's cool and gives YOU a lot of replay, but that doesn't fix the weird-ass decisions they made, like forcing you to wait for Samus to turn around, or the physics on the grapple beam. Response time is slower than any action game at the time, and I can't even AIM MANUALLY.

It sounds like you think the decisions were weird because they didn't live up to what you expected out of a side scroller. That, of course, doesn't mean they were bad. Take the fact that it takes a moment to turn around and start running in the opposite direction, for instance. That doesn't happen in most of Super Metroid's contemporaries, true, but it does happen in real life (as well as most modern 3D games). I'm not saying that realism should dictate gameplay, but just because everyone else does something, that doesn't mean you have to. It's okay to do things differently, as long as it doesn't negatively impact gameplay. If you think Super Metroid's controls do, that's fine. I don't agree.


I need to figure out where you guys found all these playables.

Either that, or you need to lighten up and realize that you can, in fact, learn something about a game by watching it being played.

Eusis
08-22-2007, 01:38 PM
Watching is never the same as playing. I can say that Shining Force Neo looks like it'd bore and annoy me, but I can't fairly say it'd be an unfun game until I actually try it. Then again, I suppose I can hate it for what it's done to Shining Force... Even then though, something like Prime 3 needs to at least be out and have some reviews circulating around in order to really say something like hating what Prime 3 did to Metroid.

Enough of that though. I wanted to point out an old quote: As soon as you start to get comfy in Brinstar, it's off to Norfair to get the high jump boots (unless you're one of those crazies who just doesn't get them).
At least for this playthrough, I'm one of those crazies. Well, at least for clearing Kraid's lair. Decided I'd bomb jump up to the entrance rather than get the high jump and I didn't notice I could wall jump there until after Kraid was dead. For those who can't get bomb jumping down and want advice, I'd suggest trying to close your eyes and just listening to the bomb sounds. I think the visual distraction's far worse than the music is.

Also, while I recognize Super Metroid's controls what works and is an essential aspect of the game for the most part, I have to agree they feel kinda clunky anyway. They really are kinda stiff.

chronolink
08-22-2007, 02:27 PM
I have never really had any issues with the Super Metroid controls, they always seemed very responsive, Samus was always doing what I wanted her to do, although I haven't played the game in some time, so I'll find out. My beef would be with the Grappling Beam physics, how you are swinging and sometimes when you let go Samus just STOPS moving horizontally.

Thing I really remember is when starting to play Fusion I was surprised at how different the jump physics feel, after the apex of her (very low, compared to Super) jump, Samus falls down like a rock. "Who put a Belmont in my Metroid?", was the first thing that crossed my mind. But after a while (1 minute more or less) you just let it go and it feels like second nature.

ringworm
08-22-2007, 02:46 PM
Either that, or you need to lighten up and realize that you can, in fact, learn something about a game by watching it being played.
I watched someone play 10 minutes of Super Mario Galaxy. That game is bullshit, it doesn't even feel like Mario.

Maggie
08-22-2007, 02:50 PM
I watched someone play 10 minutes of Super Mario Galaxy. That game is bullshit, it doesn't even feel like Mario.

It felt like a bag of sand.

ringworm
08-22-2007, 02:50 PM
It felt like a bag of sand.
Best Poster Award

Makkara
08-22-2007, 02:59 PM
I watched someone play 10 minutes of Super Mario Galaxy. That game is bullshit, it doesn't even feel like Mario.

Was the point of that bit of sarcasm that we can actually learn nothing at all by watching a game being played? If so, that's a pretty strange opinion to have, considering all we have learned about Super Mario Galaxy by those ten minutes (you can pick up and shoot those little stars with the Wiimote, there's a bee suit with which you can fly and climb on honeycombs, it has nice fur effects, etc.). If not, you need to brush up on your reading comprehension.

Either that, or you need to lighten up and realize that you can, in fact, learn something about a game by watching it being played.

ringworm
08-22-2007, 03:02 PM
Nah, it was more about judging the overall "feel" of a game based on videos of a relatively small part of the game, not that we can't learn anything.

EDIT: Also, it wasn't really targeted at you, just using your post as a basis to criticize other people. :D

Tomm Guycot
08-22-2007, 03:52 PM
For those who can't get bomb jumping down and want advice, I'd suggest trying to close your eyes and just listening to the bomb sounds. I think the visual distraction's far worse than the music is.

...but then you can't tell if you're succeeding.

Brickroad
08-22-2007, 05:07 PM
Bomb jumping is tricky, and never really necessary unless you're purposely making things hard on yourself (say, by skipping the Hi-Jump Boots or somesuch). Which is fine, but if that's your bag you won't mind spending the time to learn it.

There are two methods of bomb jumping, and I can only do the "slow" method which lets you climb a couple pixels with each bomb. The other method involves setting Bomb A, setting Bomb B in mid-air, then setting Bomb C to overlap Bomb A, which launches you up into Bomb B.

I'm trying to think of all the places bomb jumping is required in an uber-low percent game, and can only think of one. Maybe that's all there is.

(Second play today, 1:01 @ 36%. I won't be happy until I get it under an hour.)

Eusis
08-22-2007, 06:08 PM
...but then you can't tell if you're succeeding.
That can be a problem, but you could just open them up when you guess you've done it. As such, I won't be using it that much, I just wanted to actually try and see if I could sequence break some.

Lakupo
08-22-2007, 07:12 PM
Oddly enough, it wasn't until after I played Zero Mission that I finally got the hang of bomb-jumping in Super Metroid. Maybe the easy bomb-jumping in ZM was a confidence booster. I usually go fast (since I'm impatient), but it's too easy to go too fast and lose the rhythm, so I try to dial it back now and then.

I finished Metroid II last night. 2:34, which is a best for me. I usually just barely miss the 3 hour mark. I usually don't subscribe to the idea that "everything looks the same", since the caverns have unique tilesets for each phase, but phase 4 is filled with the same vertical passageways and it kind of drives me nuts. And the final phase with the Omegas was really tense. No recharge stations, just a few enemies to kill over and over for health orbs. Now I'm 45 minutes into Fusion (Just left AQA, now in PYR).

It's funny, I love the ability to sequence break in Super Metroid and Zero Mission, but I don't dislike II and Fusion for being linear. Actually, I kind of like how Fusion calls back to II by being on-rails. Zebes represents freedom; SR388 is about sticking to the mission.

I guess it goes back to the question "What makes Metroid Metroid?" Is Metroid about isolation? II certainly has that. It's probably the most claustrophobic Metroid. Perhaps the giant sprite adds to that. I'll stick with the old stand-by "rolling up into a ball and bombing random walls looking for secrets." ;D

As long as Prime 3 has that, it's all good!

Tomm Guycot
08-22-2007, 09:10 PM
Thanks for that "turn and spin jump straight up" tip. I totally sequence broke Brinstar to get items (turns out I could have just gone around the long way, but oh well).

MCBanjoMike
08-22-2007, 09:24 PM
Just wrapped it up now, with a time of 4:20 and 93%. Definitely not my fastest time, but I think it's a new personal best for item collection. I thought that maybe, maybe I had a chance of being at 99% (couldn't remember how many missiles you're supposed to finish with) and that I'd look it up and go for the best ending. As it is, I think I'll probably call it a day and get back to Okami.

Oh, despite my time/item rate, I did manage to get the awesome ending: the one where you save your animal buddies!

Eusis
08-22-2007, 09:47 PM
Played a bit more just now, and wound up doing a bit more sequence breaking. Forgot to get the ice beam, went to get the Speed Booster... And wound up grabbing the Wave beam despite lacking the ice beam and the grappling hook.

I also decided to try something else for the bomb jumping. The reason for closing my eyes was to focus on keeping the timing and pay attention to just the sound of the bombs exploding. I decided to focus on the graphic of the bomb blasts instead, and that seems to be working fine. I only tried it a few times though, I didn't make extensive use of it.

chud_666
08-22-2007, 09:48 PM
This game is full of little awesoem things that will always stick out. One is the sub boss in Norfair whose skeleton makes a final attack out from the lava. Another is the Maridia boss, who you kill by being grabbed and then grappling on to the electricty of the busted wall turrets. And when it dies its babies are so sad....

Octopus Prime
08-23-2007, 02:39 AM
Actually, I think it's babies come back and eat it.

Which is less sad.

Torgo
08-23-2007, 02:58 AM
Another is the Maridia boss, who you kill by being grabbed and then grappling on to the electricty of the busted wall turrets.
True story: I never found out about that until a few years ago.

Klatrymadon
08-23-2007, 03:03 AM
I don't think SM is the only, or even the first, game to do this. Castlevania (part one) did it, Zero Mission did it, and the Prime games do it too--there are tons of passages connecting everything.

Oh, they all have tunnels linking places up, but I'm talking about the actual believability of the planets here, if we could hypothetically pull the camera back and see the entire game. MZM has a lot of illogical relationships between areas. The only way they could actually work is if elevators run diagonally, or if there are warps I don't know about. The Primes are just a load of horizontal 'tiers' stacked vaguely above and below each other. Every area SM, on the other hand, seems to align perfectly and makes geographical sense when you consider its position from the planet's core. Again, I know this stuff isn't important to everybody, and I don't even subscribe to the 'realism in games' school of thought myself - Metroid planets should just feel monolithic and whole.

In terms of pure level design, I still have trouble with the idea that MZM and Fusion are 'tighter' than SM. Perhaps they are as far as the proximity of everything is concerned, but but Super still feels quick and nippy to me - it just takes a bit of finesse. MZM and Fusion offer much less potential for finesse, control-wise. The jumps are all very metered and rigid (especially the wall jumps, obviously), which makes for a pair of games that you can't really do a lot of toying around with, whether you're a sequence breaker or not.

I'm a big fan of the Contra/Probotector games, aye. As useful as it is, though, I'm not sure III's aiming system would have worked here. In The Best Action Game Ever Made, you hold R to plant Bill/Lance on the spot so you can shoot in 8 directions without running anywhere. In SM, running while aiming up at the ceiling is much more conducive to not dying all over the place. :p

The 'turning around' thing is all about the conservation of momentum. You just don't have that in the newer games. For example, in SM, the space jump will throw you across a room in .5 of a second if you take a run-up, whereas in the newer games it always has a top speed that can't be exceeded. It's a matter of preference, but Samus' physics in SM are so much more subtle and sophisticated than they are in the newer games (although everything's arguably more 'immediate' in those). Her malleability really can't be overstated.

I need to figure out where you guys found all these playables.


Hehe, it doesn't take an afficionado to point out the changes the series is undergoing - it's an educated prediction that I'll have a ton of issues with it. I already know I'm not going to get on well with this game's emphasis on dialogue (and really poorly-designed characters), its 'epic' space opera art direction or its interplanetary bitesize-chunk level design. It'll be a fantastic game, it just won't be the most Metroidian one I've ever played. ;)

sfried
08-23-2007, 08:58 AM
Was the point of that bit of sarcasm that we can actually learn nothing at all by watching a game being played?

I though sarcasm was tasteful and involved irony (well, at least the British kind)?

Most of the time I can't even tell if it's sarcasm at all.

Parish
08-23-2007, 10:21 AM
Hey guys

YOUR RETARDED BULLSHIT CHEST-THUMPING ABOUT CORRUPTION IS OUTSIDE THE CHARTER OF THIS PROJECT

sfried
08-23-2007, 10:31 AM
Hey guys

YOUR RETARDED BULLSHIT CHEST-THUMPING ABOUT CORRUPTION IS OUTSIDE THE CHARTER OF THIS PROJECT

He's right. Super Metroid was great, but it's not as shiney/perfect as everyone makes it to be. Just so happens it makes use of the full exploitation of Samus' moves, so it never feels underutilized.

Zef
08-23-2007, 10:45 AM
True story: I never found out about [electrocuting the Maridia boss] until a few years ago.
I read about it somewhere (probably a magazine hintbook when the game came out) but I was never able to get the rhythm right till one or two years ago. You have to start relatively close to the wall and, rather than left-and-right, perform more of a circular back-and-forth on the D-pad, slowly increasing pressure in the direction of the wall. Not exactly easy when the Draygon insists on stinging you with its tail.

Incidentally, that's a beautiful implementation of in-game tools. Since the usual reaction to Metroid bosses is to blast their face off with Missiles, I love how the developers deliberately encouraged nonlinear thinking in that battle. Sequence-breaking is one thing, but what other instances of "thinking outside the box" are there in the game?

ringworm
08-23-2007, 11:07 AM
He's right. Super Metroid was great, but, in my opinion, it's not as shiney/perfect as everyone makes it to be. Just so happens it makes use of the full exploitation of Samus' moves, so it never feels underutilized.
Fixed.

Maybe its not entirely necessary. Maybe its assumed that whenever we say something that it is only our opinion, but man, it would avoid a lot of forum drama if it were said explicitly.

Kishi
08-23-2007, 11:35 AM
Actually, I think it's babies come back and eat it.

Which is less sad.

No, they just silently carry it underground. It's very somber.

SamuelMarston
08-23-2007, 01:20 PM
I just bomb-jumped my way into Kraid's lair by mashing the button as fast as I could. It worked as long as I was consistent.

So... uh... yay?

ringworm
08-23-2007, 01:33 PM
What do people think of the Prime series putting the ammo-type needed to open doors on the auto-map? I find myself missing it now, but maybe not having it forces me to have to remember the actual world layout better. Sometimes I think I spent more time looking at the auto-map in Echoes than I did actually playing the game. Maybe having the auto-map be very minimalist aids in the feeling of exploration. Despite the auto-map I've actually gotten lost a couple of time in SM just because doors (and what it takes to open them) are not marked.

Tomm Guycot
08-23-2007, 02:31 PM
I always forget about Draygon's babies and they always make me sad :(

In SM, running while aiming up at the ceiling is much more conducive to not dying all over the place.

But you can do that in Contra too--you hold forward and forward up... it has nothing to do with an "aim button"

Kishi
08-23-2007, 02:42 PM
As someone already pointed out, you can aim diagonally with the D-Pad in Super Metroid, too.

Zeroneight
08-23-2007, 02:56 PM
So, uh, how hard is Draygon without the Grappling Beam? I'm gonna try to beat the game without it tonight, because I need an edge against my opponent, who'll be on the TV right next to mine. This will be interesting... I hope I don't screw up the shinesparking. I think I'll have to fight Spore Spawn because I'm still not good enough at mockballing.

Mightyblue
08-23-2007, 03:00 PM
The trick to beating Draygon is to lure him to an edge of the platform (and make sure he's facing you for god's sake) and when he sprays the goo stuff, get caught and let him grab you. When he starts to jerk you around, grapple beam one of the turrets (you should destroy them as you enter the room). You'll get electrocuted a little, but Draygon will get extra crispy.

Kishi
08-23-2007, 03:14 PM
So, uh, how hard is Draygon without the Grappling Beam?

Not too hard. Just use the Morphing Ball to dodge when it sweeps quickly across the screen, fire at its belly when it slows down, and definitely watch out for the gummy crap it spits to ensnare you. If it's able to grab you, it'll mean a lot of wasted time and Energy.

Oh, and if you're racing, it would really be worth it to practice the mockball. Even if it takes you a few tries to succeed, getting the Super Missiles that way is still way faster than going through Spore Spawn. Just make sure your opponent agrees it's legal, since it is a glitch, after all.

Zeroneight
08-23-2007, 03:21 PM
Not too hard. Just use the Morphing Ball to dodge when it sweeps quickly across the screen, fire at its belly when it slows down, and definitely watch out for the gummy crap it spits to ensnare you. If it's able to grab you, it'll mean a lot of wasted time and Energy.

I lol'd.

And, thanks!

Lakupo
08-23-2007, 11:05 PM
Finished Fusion last night, 2:14, 53%. After finishing the four Metroid games in two days, my life feels a little empty now. Like, "What will I do now?!" I'm all revved up now. I could go through Super Metroid again, but there probably is too much of a good thing. I guess I can go back to Persona 3 now. (I guess! ;) )

I think the best thing about my annual replay of the Metroid series is that playing my favorite games reminds me of why I like video games so much. It's reinvigorating. I guess I should be grateful that my favorite games happen to be so short.

Tomm Guycot
08-23-2007, 11:26 PM
Toasted Ridley. Missing one ETank and one Reserve Tank.

Totally frustrating.

Mightyblue
08-23-2007, 11:33 PM
Eh, I finished with 99% at somewhere around seven hours. That one missile tank in Maridia where you have to shinespark up between two platforms is the only pickup I skipped, because that was impossible for me to do. I think I tried twenty times and I couldn't get the placing just right. gah.

Tomm Guycot
08-23-2007, 11:43 PM
Eh, I finished with 99% at somewhere around seven hours. That one missile tank in Maridia where you have to shinespark up between two platforms is the only pickup I skipped, because that was impossible for me to do. I think I tried twenty times and I couldn't get the placing just right. gah.

and so the reserve tanks are...where?

Merus
08-23-2007, 11:54 PM
Did you get the I think there's two energy tanks in Lower Norfair? (From Ridley, and there's another one in the room with the alien head on the way out, which I missed my first time.)

Mightyblue
08-24-2007, 12:07 AM
and so the reserve tanks are...where?Well, there's one reserve tank in each area except for Crateria and Tourian, I'm thinking. There's one in Brinstar, one in Wrecked Ship, one in Maridia and one in Norfair.

The one in Brinstar is in the room just off to the right of the leftmost Crateria elevator, the one where you have to speed boost past closing shutters. There's also a Super Missile tank in there too.

The one in Wrecked Ship is by the Gravity Suit upgrade, and you have to be careful of drop blocks working your way around.

The one in Maridia's a tricksy one. After you beat the crap out of Draygon, you should be able to access areas via the quicksand chutes that drop you several floors. There's two "treasure" rooms in Maridia that can be accessed this way, via separate quicksand chutes. One has a missile tank and the Reserve Tank, while the other just has a missile tank if I'm remembering right.

Edit: Oh yeah, and if you blow up one of the bricks by the Ridley energy tank, you also find a missile tank.


I'm blanking on the Norfair one. I'm thinking it's in upper Norfair if I'm remembering right, it's definitely not in Ridley's neck of the woods.

Kishi
08-24-2007, 12:07 AM
The Reserve Tanks are in Brinstar (in a room off from the vertical green shaft), Norfair (near the Speed Booster), the Wrecked Ship (near the Gravity Suit), and Maridia (in one of the hidden rooms you reach by sinking into the sand at the bottom of the huge metallic purple chamber).

You need to pass the one in Brinstar in order to reach a Missile Tank, so if you have all the Missiles, you should have that one. The ones in Norfair and Maridia are coupled with other items in their respective rooms, as well. So, I would think you're missing the one in the Wrecked Ship, which is all alone.

In that case, after the room with the grappling blocks and spiky floor, bomb the weak part of the floor and roll to the right to reach a Chozo statue, whose item you should already have. What you then have to do is lay a Power Bomb, which will disintegrate the statue and allow you to progress further right, where you need to shoot robots into holes to form footing over which you can build up a speed boost, then Shinespark up to where the Tank is.

Tomm Guycot
08-24-2007, 12:13 AM
I have the one in Wrecked Ship for sure.

I think I just don't know which sand pits to sink in.

Kishi
08-24-2007, 12:21 AM
About halfway into Maridia is a large area with all that purple pipework. You need to lay a Power Bomb to access the main section, there's a save room to the left, there are snails milling around, and there are grappling blocks.

Run to the far right on the bottom level, then shoot out a demarcated section of the pipe-floor to reach the earthy sub-bottom. Run back to the left, and you'll find two sand pits into which you can sink. The one on the right leads to Missiles and Power Bombs, and the one on the left leads to more Missiles and the Reserve Tank.

Klatrymadon
08-24-2007, 01:57 AM
But you can do that in Contra too--you hold forward and forward up... it has nothing to do with an "aim button"

Yeah, what I was saying is that planting yourself on the spot in to aim in 8 directions in SM would be largely useless. Both systems are better suited to their respective games. :p

*thumps chest at Parish*

I think I've stayed on-topic, mostly!

Octopus Prime
08-24-2007, 02:32 AM
You know, I've never tried to electrocute Draygon before.

It's MUCH easier then trying to fight him proper.

Klatrymadon
08-24-2007, 03:29 AM
Fun fact: if you give Ridley a fair thrashing at the start, he actually drops the Metroid larva. Watching him ignominiously slump back down for it made me howl the first time it happened.

MCBanjoMike
08-24-2007, 05:39 AM
You know, I've never tried to electrocute Draygon before.

It's MUCH easier then trying to fight him proper.

No kidding, after reading about that here, I decided to give it a try and almost got my metallic buttocks handed to me. Eventually I reverted to regular methods, but the fight wound up being closer than I would have liked, since I lost so much energy mucking around at the beginning.

Still, sounds really cool.

And what do you mean, there's a missile tank near Ridley's energy tank? You mean in the room with the metroid hatchling's empty jar? I didn't see that!

Dart Zaidyer
08-24-2007, 07:32 AM
Two segments in at about 45 minutes on the clock, and I'm already very well geared up to go down to the ruins in Norfair and kill Ridley.
I should have 100% by the time the clock hits 1:08 or so, at this rate. I think on this run I'll be able to beat the game in around 1:20. (My personal record is around 1:15ish, but this is a casual replay.)

Watching speed runs of this game has forever ruined my ability to plod through it and take my time.

Brickroad
08-24-2007, 08:16 AM
You know, I've never tried to electrocute Draygon before.

It's MUCH easier then trying to fight him proper.

But a LOT slower, considering this way you get to skip Crocomire and the Grappling Beam entirely. Even in a speedy 100% game, it's still better to skip Crocomire and come back later with Plasma. ONE HIT KILL BAYBEE

Did my final run last night, 0:51 at 36% items. I am content. Later on I'll go back for a 100% + full map run so I can get back to loving all the game's glitchiness.

I tried the "murder beam" glitch this time, which is a new one on me, and really liked it. Basically it's a quick, dirty way to kill Motherbrain's final form, which is really helpful since that's always the hardest part of the game for me.

How to do it: after shattering Motherbrain's glass case and destroying her first form, charge a full Ice/Wave/Plasma shot. Pause the game, equip the Spazer (this will unequip Plasma). Now scroll over to the Speed Booster. If you press left and confirm at the exact same time you will be able to have your Plasma and Spazer guns equipped simultaineously. Unpause the game and release your charged shot at point blank range into Motherbrain's head while it's still on the floor. It will slow the fight down a little, but she'll continuously take damage through the entire battle, causing lots of cool graphical glitches and ensuring your victory.

The Spazer/Plasma glitch has been known for a long time but I'd never seen it used in this way before. Very very cool.

Back in the day we used the glitch in other areas to reset all the items in the game so you could run around with thousands of missiles and energy tanks. Lots of fun.

Jeanie
08-24-2007, 08:22 AM
Well, there's one reserve tank in each area except for Crateria and Tourian, I'm thinking. There's one in Brinstar, one in Wrecked Ship, one in Maridia and one in Norfair.

I'm blanking on the Norfair one. I'm thinking it's in upper Norfair if I'm remembering right, it's definitely not in Ridley's neck of the woods.

It's near the entrance, relatively. There's a room decorated with bubbles with a save room mid way up on the right and another door above, at the top of the room is a spot where you Grapple Beam to that door or you can use an Ice Beam-ed monster to get up there. In that room is a pickup, missile I think, a monster, and a wall that you can shoot a hole in big enough for you to roll in. Freeze the monster near the hole, bomb jump in, and go through the door. Travel across the lava room and there's the tank. Also the last little ledge before the tank is JUST big enough to hide a missle pickup, hint hint.

Kishi
08-24-2007, 09:52 AM
And what do you mean, there's a missile tank near Ridley's energy tank? You mean in the room with the metroid hatchling's empty jar? I didn't see that!

He meant there's a Missile Tank near the Norfair Reserve Tank. See JFink's post for details.

Mightyblue
08-24-2007, 10:41 AM
He meant there's a Missile Tank near the Norfair Reserve Tank. See JFink's post for details.Huh. I think you're right. I'm forgetting details, since I wrote that this morning in a haze of sleepyness and chocolate.

Zen
08-24-2007, 03:31 PM
I've been challenging myself to do as much as possible. I mockballed to get the early super missiles, got early speed booster, wave beam, power bombs, spazer, and avoided using grapple where I could. I didn't quite manage the super Maridia entry (always a frame or two off), but I still shinesparked my way in.

Sadly, my memory was only good for 97% :<. Gotta watch Scarlet's run again, and anyone else who's interested in neat tricks and where stuff is should look it up at http://www.speeddemosarchive.com/.

Alex Scott
08-24-2007, 03:44 PM
Just finished it. 2:54, 98% items.

I actually worked half the game under the assumption that two hours was the limit for the best ending, so once I beat Draygon, I gave up on my speed run and concentrated on collecting items, relying on the devmap posted earlier and a map on GameFAQs. And I still made good time. I think I missed a missile tank, but I can't figure out where it is based on the map.

I must have been thinking of Zero Mission or something.

My only sequence break was in Norfair--I got the Speed Booster, Wave Beam, and my first Power Bombs before I even got the Ice Beam. I also discovered the Reserve Tank in Maridia before it was even discussed here, thanks to that devmap.

This was the first time I ever beat the gold statue without too much trouble. A charged plasma beam does the trick quite nicely.

Who knew that thirteen years later, I could still learn new things about this game?

Zen
08-24-2007, 04:14 PM
I actually felt a little sad when I picked it up, like I was cheating. I should try getting through the game without it sometime, just to get good at walljumping.

I recommend the old Hori SNES-style Gamecube pad for playing on VC, by the way. It's almost perfect.

Octopus Prime
08-24-2007, 05:37 PM
Clear time of 3:02. And Item Rate of 64%

Not bad for my first time in about 5 or 6 years. And the only boss I managed to die against was Mother Brain.

Which I didn't even think was possible

le geek
08-24-2007, 09:18 PM
Just got the Grapple Beam...

Sarcasmorator
08-24-2007, 09:31 PM
I, uh. I forgot you could dash without the super-dash boots. So that bridge in Brinstar? The one made out of crumbly blocks? Got stuck on that for a while.

Alex Scott
08-24-2007, 09:42 PM
I may start again soon and see if I can get Kraid before I set foot in Norfair.

Tomm Guycot
08-25-2007, 01:05 AM
5:33 with 90%. Can't say I'm proud of that.

The second time I played through it (approx 4 years ago - ie. 9 years after the game had been released) I did it fast enough for Samus to at least take off her helmet... and I had 96%.

I have no idea what happened.

cartman414
08-25-2007, 01:19 AM
But a LOT slower, considering this way you get to skip Crocomire and the Grappling Beam entirely. Even in a speedy 100% game, it's still better to skip Crocomire and come back later with Plasma. ONE HIT KILL BAYBEE

Did my final run last night, 0:51 at 36% items. I am content. Later on I'll go back for a 100% + full map run so I can get back to loving all the game's glitchiness.

I tried the "murder beam" glitch this time, which is a new one on me, and really liked it. Basically it's a quick, dirty way to kill Motherbrain's final form, which is really helpful since that's always the hardest part of the game for me.

How to do it: after shattering Motherbrain's glass case and destroying her first form, charge a full Ice/Wave/Plasma shot. Pause the game, equip the Spazer (this will unequip Plasma). Now scroll over to the Speed Booster. If you press left and confirm at the exact same time you will be able to have your Plasma and Spazer guns equipped simultaineously. Unpause the game and release your charged shot at point blank range into Motherbrain's head while it's still on the floor. It will slow the fight down a little, but she'll continuously take damage through the entire battle, causing lots of cool graphical glitches and ensuring your victory.

The Spazer/Plasma glitch has been known for a long time but I'd never seen it used in this way before. Very very cool.

Back in the day we used the glitch in other areas to reset all the items in the game so you could run around with thousands of missiles and energy tanks. Lots of fun.

Never heard of that glitch, and I've considered myself a huge fan of the game. Would Spazma be a good nickname?

Sanagi
08-25-2007, 02:07 AM
Resetting the game events was a cool glitch. You start back at the space station with, if I recall correctly, all super missiles and energy tanks intact...? I forget exactly, but you could basically powerlevel Samus and go back and fight the early bosses with your ridiculous arsenal.

Octopus Prime
08-25-2007, 06:25 AM
Never heard of that glitch, and I've considered myself a huge fan of the game. Would Spazma be a good nickname?

I believe it's called the Murder-beam. Or perhaps the Space-Time Beam. I forget which.

Also, I feel it's important to comment on how very much I hate the Ninja-Space Pirates.

Mightyblue
08-25-2007, 09:56 AM
Murder Beam, yar.

The easiest way to deal with them is wait until they turn gold while doing a drop kick, and then unload missiles into them.

Klatrymadon
08-25-2007, 10:41 AM
A charged plasma beam shot can potentially take them out in one hit.

Best way to avoid a beating is to hover over their heads with the space jump. As soon as they jump up and turn gold, let 'em have it!

Dart Zaidyer
08-25-2007, 10:52 AM
There's a way to force the black pirates to attack. You have to jump over them and stand several blocks away, so they'll spin jump over to the other side. Then, when they land, stand right in line of their drop-kick attack and they'll try it immediately. Works every time.

Octopus Prime
08-25-2007, 11:30 AM
Oh I know all the tricks to fighting them, but I always have a harder time with them then I do with every other enemy in the game put together.

Which is why it's good that there were no Ninja-Pirates in real life. They'd have taken over the world within a week.

mode7
08-25-2007, 12:11 PM
hey guys I herd Samus is a girl?

Mightyblue
08-25-2007, 12:29 PM
Hay guyz, I herd you liek mudkips?

mr_bungle700
08-25-2007, 01:46 PM
hey guys I herd Samus is a girl?

No.

Hay guyz, I herd you liek mudkips?

Yes.

Zen
08-25-2007, 03:57 PM
The Space-Time beam is what it's called when you reset the game with it. I think Murder beam can also be used to good effect against Ridley, and I recall Kip doing some preposterous things with it in the Zebetite room, going through walls and glitching around the map. It used the X-ray scope.

For my next play I want to have plasma for Crocomire, finally nail that shinespark into the Wrecked Ship, and maybe learn the new way into Spore Spawn's missile stash. It's got something to do with using power bombs to extend the screen's memory, but I'll have to dig around on 2K2.

Brickroad
08-25-2007, 05:03 PM
YARGH. An hour and change at the end of my 100% game, and I'm missing two missile tanks. THEY COULD LITERALLY BE ANYWHERE.

And since I know the map so well, it's not a matter of "oh, I didn't know missiles were there!" but rather "wait did I pick up that particular set or not I don't remember" as I scour the maps.

Oh well, back to work.

Mightyblue
08-25-2007, 06:34 PM
Did you get that one in Maridia where you have to shinespark jump up between two platforms that are literally only a few pixels apart?

Sarcasmorator
08-25-2007, 06:43 PM
Arg! Every time someone types "shinespark" I read "spineshark."

Eusis
08-25-2007, 08:13 PM
I'm in Marinda. If I don't beat it tonight, I probably will tomorrow. Anyways, while I wouldn't call it the best game ever (definitely in my top 10 if not top 5), I do think it's one of the best designed games ever.

SlimJimm
08-25-2007, 08:46 PM
Geez everyone here is so good at this. You guys all have like 100% and can do sequence breaking, and those hard-to-do "shinespark" moves.

I kinda started playing this, but then I got into Bioshock, but anyways I think my best time/collection was like 3:30-4:00 and about 60%. You guys are good.

le geek
08-25-2007, 10:42 PM
Just about have Maridia wrapped up, just have a few "how do I get there" areas to figure out. The game seems a little dated now compared to say Dawn of Sorrow, but still a classic...

Cheers,
Ben

Lakupo
08-26-2007, 05:46 AM
Did you get that one in Maridia where you have to shinespark jump up between two platforms that are literally only a few pixels apart?

That one's pretty easy once you notice the little tuft of kelp sticking out of the ground right where you're supposed to launch from. :)

Reinforcements
08-26-2007, 09:32 AM
Just beat it. 82% collection rate! Shameful. I finished with 150 missiles, 45 super missiles, 45 power bombs, and every energy tank and reserve tank. I really thought I was only missing one super missile and one power bomb. Back to work, I guess.

And just like the last time I played it (like 10 years ago), the spring ball was a bitch to find. Also, I hate Maridia.

Dart Zaidyer
08-26-2007, 11:44 AM
My first run clocked in at 1:26, with 98%. I missed two missile tanks. For a minute I couldn't remember where they were, but it turns out they were the most forgettable tanks in the game: One embedded in a random wall in Norfair for some reason, the other behind a long secret hallway full of spikes in the Wrecked Ship.

My second run clocked in at 54 minutes. I wasn't going for 100%, so I skipped the Spring Ball and only got six Energy Tanks, 130 missiles, 15 Super Missiles and 5 Power Bombs.

Next, I'm gonna try for a full 100% with the fastest time I can get.

Zen
08-26-2007, 01:16 PM
Probably the ones most likely to be missed are the one in Bowser's room inside the right wall in Maridia and the one in the zig-zag section after the first green door in the game (one of the pipes can be rolled through, but it's easy to go through without even seeing it), which was actually the last one I ever found. There's another one in a room where missiles are on a pedestal, and you can shoot through the corner of the pedestal to reveal another.

Kishi
08-26-2007, 02:13 PM
Just beat it. 82% collection rate! Shameful. I finished with 150 missiles, 45 super missiles, 45 power bombs, and every energy tank and reserve tank. I really thought I was only missing one super missile and one power bomb.

You were. As far as ammo goes, 100% means 230 Missiles, 50 Super Missiles, and 50 Power Bombs.

230 - 150 = 80
80 / 5 = 16
16 + 1 + 1 = 18
82 + 18 = 100

@w@;;

Brickroad
08-26-2007, 02:21 PM
The ones I missed were the pack in the rocky morph-ball maze left of the path to the Gravity Suit (for some reason I thought that was just a one-way shortcut to the lake below, but there's a set of missiles there) and one in a sandy area of Maridia through a fake wall (there's a set of missiles and supers if you go left; I forgot that you also had to go right).

It's amazing how much of the map you never need to visit, even in a 100% game. For example, the entire area of Crateria behind the Wrecked Ship and almost all of upper Maridia. Lots of little nooks and crannies in Norfair, too.

I think it's interesting that everyone has their own idea of what is the most "obscure item in the game". I would have to say that the missiles hidden in the wall of the Maridian turtle room are the most obscure, personally. As in, it took me six or seven hours to get the first 99 items when I was learning the game years ago, and another four or five at least to finally find those missiles.

Eusis
08-26-2007, 04:51 PM
Beat the game at 4:36 with 79% for item collection. I did a bit more sequence breaking in Norfair, with getting the Power Bombs there and fighting Crocomire before that, and the wave beam without a grappling hook. Other than that, I more or less kept away from sequence breaking for the rest of the game.

le geek
08-26-2007, 06:10 PM
Speaking of which, that reminded me that Metroid was one of the FIRST series' to adopt voice acting.

Shut up, Prime 3 haters!

Uhm... Impossible Mission?

Octopus Prime
08-26-2007, 06:32 PM
One of the first, not THE first.

Also, wasn't there an Intellivision game with some amazing digitized talking? Or WAS that Impossible Mission? All I remember is that it freaked me right out at the age of 5

Ben1842
08-26-2007, 08:18 PM
Not the first. What about bad dudes?




I'm Bad. simply awesome

Parish
08-26-2007, 11:52 PM
And that, as they say, is that. Thanks everyone for participating.

SEE YOU NEXT MISSION