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shivam
09-20-2010, 10:14 AM
hell no. i LOVE powers mafia. but both have their place.
variety is the spice, after all.

VorpalEdge
09-20-2010, 11:01 AM
......

wow.

Alpha Werewolf
09-20-2010, 11:10 AM
......

wow.

And then Vorpal realised how stupid he was when he didn't sign up.

kaisel
09-20-2010, 11:11 AM
I wish I had the time to get in on this game, because this is pretty amazing, though I disagree with the notion that games with powers are automatically superior to those without.

shivam
09-20-2010, 11:19 AM
i'm kinda sad that byron used his power immediately, since i'm generally of the opinion that i want people to be able to play as long as possible, but hey, we at least get to see how destil's cipher works =)

McClain
09-20-2010, 03:39 PM
Byron's reveal was awesome. Maybe even better than Brick's "oh, yeah, I killed McClain, BTW. I'm the vigilante" from M5.

Javex
09-20-2010, 03:43 PM
HOLY SH...

Wow, I go away to get my sleep, and I come back to a dead man early on!

This is an awesome game.

Destil
09-20-2010, 08:00 PM
i'm kinda sad that byron used his power immediately, since i'm generally of the opinion that i want people to be able to play as long as possible, but hey, we at least get to see how destil's cipher works =)

Yeah, sure. You get to see it today. Some of us will be waiting until the end of the game.

I like that he can't change his vote, still. Late in the day he's totally trashed and his speech is too slurred.

Javex
09-20-2010, 10:14 PM
And suddenly Javex felt an enormous surge of pressure.

dtsund
09-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Byron, you freaking rule.

Eddie
09-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Byron, drinks on me for the rest of the game.

- Eddie

Nodal
09-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Guys, if I ever play mafia, remind me to never, ever fuck with Byron.

shivam
09-20-2010, 10:17 PM
and the marathon day 1 comes to an end. i have many regrets, but such is the way it goes =)

Kylie
09-20-2010, 10:18 PM
*hic*

Tock
09-20-2010, 10:18 PM
Holy shit.

Destil
09-20-2010, 10:18 PM
*applauds*

widdershins
09-20-2010, 10:19 PM
YES! VINDICATION!

Also:
"Widds tilted back his hat and scratched his forehead, before spitting on the ground. "Well, hoss, best's I kin tell, we jus' don like us some strangers round these here parts. May you find your peace with the Maker."

Shivam, I love you so much right now.

Dizzy
09-20-2010, 10:20 PM
Yeah that Day went on for far too fucking long. :p

Kylie
09-20-2010, 10:22 PM
I would like to note: Shivam continues in the proud and beautiful style of previous GMs with his fan-freaking-tastic prose.

Stetsons off to you, sir.

Rai
09-20-2010, 10:31 PM
I don't know if you meant a word of that Dizzy, but it was beautiful.

Kylie
09-20-2010, 10:34 PM
You're a wonder, Dizzy. Never, ever, ever change. I almost cried. :)

Destil
09-20-2010, 10:35 PM
My only regret is not just previewing my last post, seeing Dizzy's and leaving that as the last of the day.

Merus
09-20-2010, 10:36 PM
oh shit well don't I look like a cocksucker now

Well done, Byron. You earned that.

Javex
09-20-2010, 10:36 PM
Jesus, you're not kidding. The "I'm deeply hurt by this" thing was rough, but then he goes and does that?

Dizzy, you're a wonderful person.

shivam
09-20-2010, 10:37 PM
man, it's so hard to DM these games and not participate or inject commentary.

Adam
09-20-2010, 10:47 PM
http://i1037.photobucket.com/albums/a453/adamadamada/amadeus.jpg

Dizzy
09-20-2010, 10:56 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v673/pistoloperasix/greateffort.jpg

should past tense that but eh

Eddie
09-20-2010, 10:59 PM
My dear young Dizzy, don't take it too hard. Your work is ingenious. It's quality work. And there are simply too many notes, that's all.

- Eddie

spineshark
09-20-2010, 11:09 PM
"Spineshark tends to behave like a jaded, snide ass on the forums"
Finally someone appreciates my talents.

Dizzy
09-20-2010, 11:54 PM
It's all in the Game (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cryMVK1PwuQ), spineshark.

I wasn't there to make friends (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w536Alnon24&p=CA3AB9EAB37EEEC0&playnext=1&index=30).

Brickroad
09-21-2010, 05:00 AM
Shit got MAD CRAZY YO after I left for work. So I'll just ask...

1) HOW THE FUCK DID MERUS SURVIVE? And

2) HOW THE FUCK WAS DIZZY AN OUTLAW?

Fucking brilliant all around. What an opener.

We've proven one thing conclusively: Day One can be awesome, if we let it.

JohnB
09-21-2010, 05:08 AM
Fucking brilliant all around. What an opener.

We've proven one thing conclusively: Day One can be awesome, if we let it.

It probably wouldn't have gone down like this if we didn't have the bonus time/extended day. Obviously it's fucking awesome right now(!!!), but I have to doubt that it will happen again in future Mafia games.

Merus
09-21-2010, 06:10 AM
1) HOW THE FUCK DID MERUS SURVIVE?

Because I'm awesome try and keep up Brick.

Brickroad
09-21-2010, 06:13 AM
Because I'm awesome try and keep up Brick.

You're not as awesome as Byron.

I TOLD YOU MAN
I TOLD YOU ABOUT BYRON

widdershins
09-21-2010, 08:13 AM
Man, today feels so... empty. Tell you what though: I'll be ready to pounce come 10!

EDIT: come 10... tomorrow. :-(

namelessentity
09-21-2010, 10:37 AM
This is how I like to come home from work. With an awesome Day 1 outlaw lynch. Some damn fine work there, Byron.

Tanto
09-21-2010, 10:50 AM
Long one, but I guess it's to be expected with this group of personalities. Incidentally, if I were playing, I'd totally change my avatar to Quickstrike (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Quickstrike_%28BW%29).

Day 1
~Posts #3-497~

The game starts slowly, with the usual array of throwaway comments, horrible horrible accents, rules clarifications, and avatar changes. Tock cautions against piling on the first person who says something questionable, a strategy which has consistently backfired in previous games. Eddie suggests that the Citizens operate under the worst-case scenario: That the Mafia has both a Snitch and a Don. Byron declares that there's little to be gained by attempting to work out how many Days are remaining -- this just sends the Citizens into a panic and causes them to act rashly.

Dtsund gets things rolling by accusing JohnB, claiming him to be "suspicious". JohnB immediately follows this with a revenge vote. Wheels finds dtsund's reasoning to be fairly specious, and votes for him as well -- however, once Nich says that there isn't anything inherently evil about a "get things rolling" vote, Wheels switches over to JohnB. Nich finds this even more suspicious, and says that unless something changes, he'll be voting for Wheels.

Brickroad steps in and declares that he won't allow himself to be burned by Byron again -- if nothing changes, he'll be voting for Byron. His argument is that if Byron is Mafia, the Citizens will never be able to suss him out, so they might as well get rid of him now. Merus raises his eyebrow at this, and a long argument as to Brickroad and Byron's respective Mafia chops ensues. Destil eventually votes for Brickroad on the "put up or shut up" theory. Brickroad offers to back off on Byron on the condition that Merus, Nich, and Destil don't come crying to him when Byron takes over the game under everyone's noses and kills everyone.

Nich says that if he turns up dead tomorrow, the Citizens should investigate Merus. JohnB points out that this strategy is easily manipulated by the Mafia, whether Merus is guilty or not.

Eddie argues that the first lynch should be taken from among the ranks of the quiet posters, sparking yet another debate as to the merits of the "lynch the quiet" strategy. It's about as conclusive as in every previous instance.

Eddie pulls back on this and then resurrects another old Mafia strategem: the watch list, in which all players are randomly arranged on a list and assigned to observe their neighbors for suspicious behavior. It receives a kind of half-hearted reception, and, as JohnB points out, it doesn't really work unless all players are completely sold on it.

Alpha Werewolf and Brickroad chew old soup for a page or so. Dizzy argues that Brickroad can be frustrating to deal with, but is valuable to have around.

Should the Citizens kill the good, the bad, or the ugly quiet? No one knows for sure, but that doesn't stop them from discussing it, at length, for something like five pages.

Things heat up when Alpha Werewolf accuses widdershins, on the grounds that his accusal of Wheels and overactive defense feels like a too-careful first-time Mafioso. JohnB and Eddie jump on the widdershins bandwagon for similar reasons. This dominates discussion for a few pages. Namelessentity and Wheels check back in after having been absent for a while. Brickroad and Destil see both widdershins and Wheels as Citizens, but don't have any specific targets to go after.

The primary incident of the Day is namelessentity's accusation of Byron. A bandwagon begins to form around him, and with his ass on the line he pulls out a trump card: He reveals he is the Drunk, uses his power to kill Nich, and declares Wheels, Merus, and Dizzy to be the primary objects of his suspicion. Obviously, this completely reverses the momentum of the game. Tock argues that Merus was attempting to direct the Day 1 chaos to kill Citizens, and votes for him. Brickroad seconds this vote after reiterating that he will not target newbies on the first Day. Several other players pipe in with Merus votes as well.

...Until Javex steps in. Javex had accused Dizzy based on his own logic before Byron came out and posted his hit list, and resumes his case afterwards. Spineshark and namelessentity hop aboard this particular bandwagon, despite Dizzy himself claiming to be appalled by the accusation. Byron votes for Dizzy as well, and Eddie, widdershins, and dtsund fall into line behind the confirmed Citizen. Despite a case for Tock (made by Destil and Merus), Dizzy wins the vote by a fairly comfortable margin, and is lynched. He is revealed to be Mafia.

Request: I'm in the hunt for some setting-neutral names for the roles outside the standard Inspector/Angel/Vigilante/Oracle set. I like my terminology to be internally consistent, and it bothers me a disproportionate amount when I've got setting-specific roles like the tiefling or guvner mixed in with the generic set. I'm open to suggestions!

Umby
09-21-2010, 01:33 PM
Hey, Dizzy, I'm happy for you, and I'll let you finish, but BYRON, IS THE BEST MAFIA PLAYER, OF ALL TIME!

Seriously. Thank you.

Destil
09-21-2010, 02:20 PM
Request: I'm in the hunt for some setting-neutral names for the roles outside the standard Inspector/Angel/Vigilante/Oracle set.

I'd humbly request cipher for the cipher/drunk, just because it was a top-down design (especially not changing votes) and I'm rather happy with it.

spineshark
09-21-2010, 02:27 PM
I was thinking of something like "wild card" but that still sounds pretty wild-west-y.

JohnB
09-21-2010, 02:33 PM
I'll second Wild Card. It sounds pretty awesome.

(Yeah, cipher is awesome too, but I think Wild Card would be more generic)

McClain
09-21-2010, 03:48 PM
Day 1
~Posts #3-497~


Holly hell, that has to be a record. That was a long, awesome Day 1.

Completely unrelated to this game, I had an idea for a couple of roles for a future game.

Witchdoctor: Once per game can resurrect a killed character. The raised character returns as a Zombie. The Witchdoctor gains no knowledge about the raised character.

Zombie: As an undead husk, the Zombie cannot communicate. However, it can point out accusations for the lynching. Zombies also count toward a team's body count for win conditions. The Zombie remains on whatever team it was on when it was killed. A Zombie does not retain any prior role and cannot be given a new role. It's just a Zombie.

Tanto
09-21-2010, 03:55 PM
Holly hell, that has to be a record.

Not quite. Day one of M3 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=730981#post730981) ran well over 500 posts. Fuck, I was a hell of a lot wordier back then.

dtsund
09-21-2010, 05:14 PM
Succubus/Snake Oil Salesman: Don/Godfather
Doomguard/Snitch: Devil
Deputy: Jailkeeper

Those, at least, are standard names, according to the MafiaScum wiki.

For the Guvner/Newsie, I'll throw Psychic out there, though I don't love the name.

Kylie
09-21-2010, 07:40 PM
I like Muckraker for Guvner.

Alpha Werewolf
09-22-2010, 02:36 AM
Succubus/Snake Oil Salesman: Don/Godfather
Godfathers are usually investigation-immune (as in, show up town) mafiosi that make the kill choice. Often they have other immunities, such as NightKill immunity.

Michelle
09-22-2010, 10:00 PM
Poor McClain. :(

McClain
09-22-2010, 10:03 PM
What the fuck, guys?

shivam
09-22-2010, 10:04 PM
i feel bad about each and every day 1 kill.

Kylie
09-22-2010, 10:04 PM
You were too good, McC. Too good for this godforsaken dusty hell.

Tock
09-22-2010, 10:36 PM
i feel bad about each and every day 1 kill.

And there were more than ever before!

Alpha Werewolf
09-23-2010, 01:17 AM
this is like Umby all over again.

Destil
09-23-2010, 02:07 AM
Okay! Finally finished my first game of Civ V, time to play me some ma...

... oh.

Brickroad
09-23-2010, 05:00 AM
What the fuck, guys?

Okay seriously yeah this is fucked up, but also funny as hell. Just funny as hell.

Sorry, brother. =(

Alpha Werewolf
09-23-2010, 09:24 AM
McClain, if I were you I'd make sure to conclude my business on Day 1 for every game in the future because this just might be a new tradition.

Merus
09-23-2010, 09:30 AM
In my next game there will be a Bomb that explodes when people try to kill them, and that person will be McClain.

(This is untrue my next game is Deception: An Inception-Themed Mafia)

McClain
09-23-2010, 09:46 AM
Dawww, you guys make me feel better about getting killed Night 1 again!

http://i878.photobucket.com/albums/ab346/mazokunomiko/cheeseburgerplate.jpg

widdershins
09-23-2010, 09:48 AM
Sorry, brother. =(

Every time you call someone 'brother', I imagine it being said in Hulk Hogan's voice, and it warms my heart a little.

Adam
09-23-2010, 10:43 AM
Every time you call someone 'brother', I imagine it being said in Liquid Snake's voice, and it warms my heart a little.

Destil
09-23-2010, 10:52 AM
What the fuck, guys?

Note: You died the day you were converted in M4. You've never made it a day past when it's possible to kill you :(

Adam
09-23-2010, 11:54 AM
Note: You died the day you were converted in M4. You've never made it a day past when it's possible to kill you :(

Says the man who converted him, and thus enabled the possibility of his death.

Dizzy
09-23-2010, 01:22 PM
shivam... STOP COMMENTING ON THE GAME!

Have the courage to let your child run into the grassy knolls free and beautiful.

shivam
09-23-2010, 01:24 PM
but....

aww, poo.

/runs away crying

namelessentity
09-23-2010, 07:21 PM
Every time you call someone 'brother', I imagine it being said in Hulk Hogan's voice, and it warms my heart a little.

ditto

Dizzy
09-23-2010, 08:23 PM
Brick's use of 'brother' made me think he was black for the longest time.

widdershins
09-24-2010, 02:11 PM
So, Luana's been watching on and off from the sidelines, and has expressed an interest in playing M7. Seeing as we live in the same house, would that be a problem for anyone if we both played?

Mostly, though, this is just an excuse for me to share this conversation:

[14:00] Luana: I think that we could manage being in the same house while being on the same mafia game
[14:00] widdershins: I do too!
[14:00] widdershins: whee!
[14:00] Luana: It would actually be pretty crazy.
[14:01] widdershins: Yeah, especially if one of us is trying to lynch the other.
[14:01] Luana: I mean, you'd be like, I VOTE LUANA BECAUSE SHE WEARS SUSHI PAJAMAS
[14:03] widdershins: I DON'T TRUST MOTHERFUCKERS IN SUSHI PAJAMAS
[14:03] widdershins: THERE'S SOMETHING.... FISHY.... ABOUT THEM
[14:03] Luana: hahahaha
[14:03] widdershins: /cue The Who
[14:04] Luana: I would be all I ACCUSE WIDDERSHINS BECAUSE HE MADE ME TASTE HIS DESSERT AND IT HAD BANANAS IN IT -- HE'S TRYING TO KILL ME

McClain
09-24-2010, 02:20 PM
Hey, guys! When you want to quote someone, please use the "quote" button so it's a not a pain in the ass track down who the fuck you are quoting! Please? Thanks!

--The Ghost of McClain.

So, Luana's been watching on and off from the sidelines, and has expressed an interest in playing M7. Seeing as we live in the same house, would that be a problem for anyone if we both played?

I think it would be a bad idea for Mazokunomiko and I to be in the same game because it would cause problems as soon as I tried to kill her (in the game).

However, next time there are split towns/wards/decks/etc., I want to try to get her in a separate game. :)

Dizzy
09-24-2010, 02:22 PM
So, Luana's been watching on and off from the sidelines, and has expressed an interest in playing M7.

She better shape up, then. ...and fast! :D

(Because we're all going to bully her, you see.)

Brickroad
09-24-2010, 02:23 PM
Brick's use of 'brother' made me think he was black for the longest time.

Only in spirit.

Dizzy
09-24-2010, 03:02 PM
I might need a co-DM for tomorrow night's closing as it's my mother in law's birthday.

lemme do it lemme do it lemme do it lemme do it

shivam
09-24-2010, 03:09 PM
Sorry, Diz. Nich and you simultaniously volunteered, and since he died first, i gave him the honors.

Dizzy
09-24-2010, 03:11 PM
BUT NICH GOT TO DM PART TIME LAST TIME --- FINE!!!

*runs off to the circus*

shivam
09-24-2010, 03:13 PM
Fine, next time i step away, I'll let you do it. Hell, if you want, you can co-DM for day 3.

widdershins
09-24-2010, 04:01 PM
Yeah, I get the sentiment. I've offered to sit out the next game if she wants in, but she didn't want to deprive me of fun. We both think we can play impartially, and not discuss things outside the thread, but even if we do, there's no way to stop people from worrying (and rightly so) that we're talking about things in private.

Man, a split game for M7 would definitely be welcome at this point. :-)

Tanto
09-24-2010, 04:09 PM
Man, a split game for M7 would definitely be welcome at this point. :-)

Only for some people. *twitch*

Destil
09-24-2010, 05:30 PM
Something like that has happened in Mafia before, but I'm not sure how well it's worked out. Destil and Gahitsu were on different decks in M4, and Queen Possum withdrew from M3 specifically because she was a rogue process and she was worried Giant Head would be able to ferret her out too easily. But if you guys want to give it a shot, go for it.

I actually did an acid test during M4, I didn't tell Gahitsu I was converted at first. Or for several days. And it was never an issue.

Since then I've let her know if she wants to play again in a unified game I'd be on board.

Merus
09-25-2010, 01:15 AM
How do I keep getting in situations that exonerate me? I mean, it's friggin' awesome, but it's getting a tad ridiculous.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 01:48 AM
How do I keep getting in situations that exonerate me? I mean, it's friggin' awesome, but it's getting a tad ridiculous.

I'll gladly trade with you.

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 07:43 AM
How do I keep getting in situations that exonerate me? I mean, it's friggin' awesome, but it's getting a tad ridiculous.

http://gstylemag.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/forrestgump21.jpg

Ruik
09-25-2010, 11:24 AM
Wine In Front Of Me

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/d1r3/princess-bride_288x288.jpg


I'm sure someone can find a use for this one too.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/d1r3/inconceivable.jpg

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 11:28 AM
Would you people please read the page I linked to on WIFOM?

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 11:30 AM
Would you people please conform to the way I've been playing Mafia for years, so I don't have to learn anything new or adjust to a new social standard?

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 11:32 AM
Hey I'm brickroad and I can't even read this short section of the page Alpha linked to!
Ironically, the Princess Bride scene from which WIFOM derives its name does not fit the game-theory definition of WIFOM: It's a simple 50/50 guessing game. It would only be WIFOM if there were an inherent disadvantage to poisoning the wine that happened to lay closer to oneself or vice-versa.

Nodal
09-25-2010, 11:35 AM
This is why nobody wants to play your game.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 11:36 AM
This is why nobody wants to play your game.

I'm rather sure it's because most of you have developed an intense dislike of me, but eh, whatever.

Dizzy
09-25-2010, 11:38 AM
Alpha should post a CV that cites all the non-TT mafia games he has played, and if possible, Pulitzer Prizes he has won for playing.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 11:40 AM
Alpha should post a CV that cites all the non-TT mafia games he has played, and if possible, Pulitzer Prizes he has won for playing.

Gladly! But first, what's a CV?

widdershins
09-25-2010, 11:40 AM
The mafiascum wiki is incorrect in its presumption, then. The whole reason it's a valid argument is that the reasons for or against doing something are both compelling enough that it's a crapshoot to try and guess which. If there was a 60/40 chance someone could be doing X instead of Y, the safe money's still on X.

The problem with relying on WIFOM is that mafia's a game where you play PEOPLE instead of the straight numbers, which is why theory is insightful, but ultimately less useful the more you play. WIFOM stops being a valid argument against an act as soon as you can say "I think I know this person well enough to predict their actions."

See also: the first episode of BBC's Sherlock. The villain basically makes the same point (that he can read people so well, that WIFOM isn't a guessing game)
(spoilered for people that don't want thing's revealed.

shivam
09-25-2010, 11:40 AM
curriculum vitae, ie a resume.

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 11:42 AM
It's not that I couldn't read your wiki link, Alpha, it's that I chose not to. And I'm under no obligation to. You're the outsider here, you're the one using a foreign language, the onus is on you to translate.

I don't care how the rest of the internet plays Mafia. I like Talking Time's version of it. I don't want to cheapen the Mafia subculture we're building here by packing it full of pre-packaged notions and ideas from people I don't care about, will never meet, and will never play with.

There's a discussion here about internet subcultures and personal comfort zones, but I don't think you'd get it. You've decided we hate you, I've decided you think we're all idiots, we can just leave it there I guess.

Nodal
09-25-2010, 11:42 AM
I'm rather sure it's because most of you have developed an intense dislike of me, but eh, whatever.


Hey I'm brickroad and I can't even read this short section of the page Alpha linked to!

This is why nobody wants to play your game.

shivam
09-25-2010, 11:43 AM
on some level it does make me really sad how hostile we've been to alpha since he got here, but he really doesn't make it easy to roll out the talking time carpet of niceness.
we need to start fresh somehow.

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 11:45 AM
on some level it does make me really sad how hostile we've been to alpha since he got here, but he really doesn't make it easy to roll out the talking time carpet of niceness.
we need to start fresh somehow.

I'm only hostile to Alpha in Mafia threads. Otherwise he and I are buds. He comments on my blog and stuff! Eh's pretty cool, doesn't afraid of etc.

Dizzy
09-25-2010, 11:47 AM
I think it can happen if Alpha refines his village explaining by showing us ignorant European explorers and merchants how it's been done.

Brick, weren't you playing mafia on enemy territory (http://sharkey.gamespite.net/forum/index.php)? How was that vs. here?

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 11:53 AM
Pretty crazy! It's really tough to play Mafia when you only know one other guy in the thread.

I wouldn't recommend their ruleset. Way too much uncontrolled randomness. The endgame essentially came down to a coin flip, because of the way player inventory stacked up.

They allow PMs during gameplay, which meant that a lot of the game got played behind the curtains, as it were. Since I was the new guy nobody contacted me about anything until almost the end of the game, and since I was a normal citizen who had no information I didn't really see any openings I could slip into. (And since I had no powers and kept losing auctions, no way to make any openings.)

I would play another Bronto game, but I doubt I'd ever enjoy it as much as TT-style. We like it straight, we like it clean. And we like it with McClain dead on Day Two, apparently.

widdershins
09-25-2010, 11:55 AM
Man, actually I love musing on theory, and have been thinking about this.

I will concede that the Princess Bride example isn't a WIFOM scenario, but because it's not a 50/50 crapshoot.

It is a battle of wits, the problem is that Veccini lost before they sat down at the table. In succumbing to Wesley's appeal to his vanity, he revealed that he thought he was smart enough to deduce the solution to any problem presented to him. When presented with what should have been an even odds decision, a reasonable man would suspect that Wesley had an insurance policy, but not wanting to damage his pride, he went along with it anyway.

He lost the battle of wits because he revealed himself to be more vain than intelligent.

Dizzy
09-25-2010, 11:55 AM
Pretty crazy! It's really tough to play Mafia when you only know one other guy in the thread.

I n t e r e s t i n g . . .

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:00 PM
The mafiascum wiki is incorrect in its presumption, then. The whole reason it's a valid argument is that the reasons for or against doing something are both compelling enough that it's a crapshoot to try and guess which. If there was a 60/40 chance someone could be doing X instead of Y, the safe money's still on X.

The problem with relying on WIFOM is that mafia's a game where you play PEOPLE instead of the straight numbers, which is why theory is insightful, but ultimately less useful the more you play. WIFOM stops being a valid argument against an act as soon as you can say "I think I know this person well enough to predict their actions."

See also: the first episode of BBC's Sherlock. The villain basically makes the same point (that he can read people so well, that WIFOM isn't a guessing game)
(spoilered for people that don't want thing's revealed.

Not going to take this discussion further than this short post, but the thing is like this.

Say you're playing Rock-Paper-Scissors. If you win with Rock, the loser pays you 10$. If you win with Paper, the loser pays you 5$. If you win with Scissors, the loser pays you 2$. Your opponent is playing at the same stakes, of course.

What's your move?


Otherwise, my games, with a spoilered result and faction for each:
-Orchestral Mafia (Newb #24) on mtgsalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=136385) (Town, Loss)
-Hip-Hop Mafia (Newb #30) on mtgsalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=149599) (Neutral Survivor, Win)
-Billy Goat Mafia (Basic #4) on mtgsalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=160560) (Town, Loss)
-Duel Monsters Mafia on mtgsalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=227988) (Neutral Serial Killer, Loss)
The sole notable game on my resume, actually. The three above were newb-play through and through, the one below characterised by an unlikely combination of abilities and deaths causing the town to be screwed over on the last day, with a slim chance for survival. My performance in this one was pretty much universally praised among the players and spectators.
-Square Enix Mafia II on mafiascum (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=14212) (Townie, Loss)

Not a very impressive resume, actually. Most of it is newb-play, so I don't mind much.

Dizzy
09-25-2010, 12:01 PM
-Orchestral Mafia (Newb #24) on mtgsalvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=136385) (Town, Loss)


3. Iím Christian, therefore Iím not God. Feel free to point out every mistake I make in thread or by pm, whichever pleases you most.


More Christians should have this attitude. :)

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 12:03 PM
So Alpha, you'd only won one game of Mafia before you came here?

Truly you have a dizzying intellect!

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:08 PM
So Alpha, you'd only won one game of Mafia before you came here?

Truly you have a dizzying intellect!

Yep! I *should* have one a second one, and lost due to being away for the final day (I had ~12 hours to come in and win instantly, but wasn't home or anything). Otherwise, it's two newb-play games and one game with such a ridiculous combination of roles and foolish players and rules (we had a player who was basically Silent Noise, only town, and you could post at night - which our best player used to voice his suspicions, and was promptly dead by morning, despite having the ability to vig at the cost of reducing his lynch threshold to 1), and I have read many, many games other than these five.

widdershins
09-25-2010, 12:09 PM
What's your move?


I know you're not taking this further, but I'm going to retort:

You're playing poker, and you're holding a King high nothing hand. The players opposite you both have more money to spend than you do. What do you do?

The answer to both questions is: "not enough information to answer".

If you can't read your opponent well, the answer is to go with the lowest risk option. You fold in poker, or if you'd have to lose money in the RPS game, you'd go with the one where you stand to lose the least.

However, each hand that's played and each move that's made gives you insight into your opponent. As time progresses, you get a better feeling for what will and won't work. He can anticipate that, same as you, but it comes down to which of you is reading the other better and becomes a game of skill rather than a game of chance or probability.

Kylie
09-25-2010, 12:09 PM
Say you're playing Rock-Paper-Scissors. If you win with Rock, the loser pays you 10$. If you win with Paper, the loser pays you 5$. If you win with Scissors, the loser pays you 2$. Your opponent is playing at the same stakes, of course.

What's your move?



In a closed system, this is a dilemma, and WIFOM is a problem. But a full game is more complicated than this question is. We can know about our opponents, we can create character profiles, behavior patterns, and add dimensions to the question that mean that we're not just dealing with a series of single dilemmae. Over time, it becomes possible to determine patterns. :)

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:11 PM
In a closed system, this is a dilemma, and WIFOM is a problem. But a full game is more complicated than this question is. We can know about our opponents, we can create character profiles, behavior patterns, and add dimensions to the question that mean that we're not just dealing with a series of single dilemmae. Over time, it becomes possible to determine patterns. :)

Which evolves beyond the topic at hand and becomes meta, which is fine. But when we don't know, say, who are the Mafia, we can't make decisions based on behavioral analysis and dive straight into WIFOM.

widdershins
09-25-2010, 12:15 PM
Which evolves beyond the topic at hand and becomes meta, which is fine. But when we don't know, say, who are the Mafia, we can't make decisions based on behavioral analysis and dive straight into WIFOM.

That's where you're wrong. By day two we all have suspicions of who mafia are, and as such, what they might try and do. If Person X is a mafia kill, and he voted for person Y, based on your suspicions you can ascertain whether or not you think your mafia front runners would kill Person X to stop them for rallying people against person Y, kill person X to make people suspicious of person Y, or kill person X for their potential later in the game with person Y as a red herring.

Invoking WIFOM means you ALWAYS assume option 3, which can be harmful in its own right depending on the circumstances.

shivam
09-25-2010, 12:15 PM
man, next game i vote we kill all the theorycrafters first.

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 12:17 PM
man, next game i vote we kill all the theorycrafters first.

Theorycraft is the #2 best thing about Mafia, right after metagaming.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:18 PM
That's where you're wrong. By day two we all have suspicions of who mafia are, and as such, what they might try and do. If Person X is a mafia kill, and he voted for person Y, based on your suspicions you can ascertain whether or not you think your mafia front runners would kill Person X to stop them for rallying people against person Y, kill person X to make people suspicious of person Y, or kill person X for their potential later in the game with person Y as a red herring.

Invoking WIFOM means you ALWAYS assume option 3, which can be harmful in its own right depending on the circumstances.

Okay, I lied. I'm going to continue this discussion.

Take your analysis. Now assume the mafia did it too, and did the opposite of what you'd expect them too.

Nodal
09-25-2010, 12:19 PM
I vote we start referring to them as theorymancers. And also make it a special town role.

Allow them to use their powers to force a lynch.

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 12:19 PM
The mafia is working from a different set of information than the town, and have a different goal. It's not an equal game.

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 12:21 PM
Would it really have to be based on word count though? I mean, Byron did it this game with a gunshot.

HEY NICH HOW'S BEIN' DEAD TREATIN' YA!? HA HA HA.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:27 PM
"You have the ability, once per game, to unleash such a torrential word count on your analyses, meta-analyses, and meta-meta-analyses, that everyone automatically votes alongside you just to shut you up."

I saw an interesting role similar to this once!

Each night, the guy may submit an essay to the moderator (though it could be just five words, if he felt like it). In that essay he would describe why he thinks player so-and-so shouldn't be lynched the following day.
At the start of the day, the mod would include said essay in his post, and the player would get immunity to lynching for that day.

EDIT: Holy shit you guys. I haven't played in this game (M1 that is not M6) and I have the second highest post count in the topic >_>

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 12:29 PM
Funny, that's sorta how I envisioned immunity challenges working in Survivor.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:30 PM
That game was also a gimmick game - each player made a new account for that game only, so that there would be no meta in the game.

shivam
09-25-2010, 12:33 PM
I saw an interesting role similar to this once!

Each night, the guy may submit an essay to the moderator (though it could be just five words, if he felt like it). In that essay he would describe why he thinks player so-and-so shouldn't be lynched the following day.
At the start of the day, the mod would include said essay in his post, and the player would get immunity to lynching for that day.

EDIT: Holy shit you guys. I haven't played in this game (M1 that is not M6) and I have the second highest post count in the topic >_>

yeah, this was never the m1 game thread, but always the meta thread.

Alpha Werewolf
09-25-2010, 12:36 PM
yeah, this was never the m1 game thread, but always the meta thread.

Ah. Carry on then :P

McClain
09-25-2010, 01:34 PM
I would play another Bronto game, but I doubt I'd ever enjoy it as much as TT-style. We like it straight, we like it clean. And we like it with McClain dead on Day Two, apparently.

So. Much. Hate.


Nah, I'm still enjoying watching this from the outside. So long as killing me Day 1 doesn't become a "thing."

Sprite
09-25-2010, 01:45 PM
Theorycraft is the #2 best thing about Mafia, right after metagaming.
I don't like metagaming, but abusing wrinkles in the rules is delicious, delicious candy.

Shine on, you over-attentive craftsmen!

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 01:54 PM
I don't like metagaming, but abusing wrinkles in the rules is delicious, delicious candy.

Shine on, you over-attentive craftsmen!

Abusing wrinkles in the rules is a form of metagaming, dork.

Kylie
09-25-2010, 02:25 PM
Theorymancer is the best word ever, forever.

McClain
09-25-2010, 02:27 PM
Theorymancer is the best word ever, forever.

I keep thinking it's a put down for someone who keeps dragging up dead, discredited theories.

That would be necrotheorymancer.

Dizzy
09-25-2010, 02:35 PM
I'd rather not be a theorymancer when it comes to Mafia but a romancer.

I seduce my victims with alacrity and zeal, and then leave them on the floor disheveled, abused and despairing.

And before I leave them to die, I say "Betcha didn't see that one coming, bitch!"

Nodal
09-25-2010, 02:51 PM
Dizzy should be allowed to keep posting in the main thread.

McClain
09-25-2010, 06:14 PM
Ok guys, Nich has the noose.

Oh shit, it's the Ghost Hangman!

Which is either a Scooby Doo episode or a campfire story (possibly both)

Brickroad
09-25-2010, 06:21 PM
Oh shit, it's the Ghost Hangman!

Which is either a Scooby Doo episode or a campfire story (possibly both)

Why, he's not a ghost at all. He was just using this projector to scare people away from the old mine!

dtsund
09-25-2010, 06:58 PM
Why, he's not a ghost at all. He was just using this projector to scare people away from the old mine!

And he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that meddling Byron!

Umby
09-25-2010, 10:27 PM
Amazing.

On the sad side, I've been wrong TWICE now.

Michelle
09-25-2010, 10:27 PM
HOLY SHIT!

I guess Byron really is God's gift to mafia...

Kylie
09-25-2010, 10:28 PM
*hic*

Nodal
09-25-2010, 10:29 PM
Guys, if I ever play mafia, remind me to never, ever fuck with Byron.

Eddie
09-25-2010, 10:30 PM
Byron, you so crazy.

- Eddie

shivam
09-25-2010, 10:31 PM
I hope you guys are enjoying the flavor text =)

McClain
09-25-2010, 10:32 PM
WOW! Just, wow.

I hope you guys are enjoying the flavor text =)

Excellent work.

Kylie
09-25-2010, 10:33 PM
I scrolled down that text so damn slow. I wanted to relish every word.

It's beautiful stuff, dude.

Umby
09-25-2010, 10:34 PM
HOLY SHIT!

I guess Byron really is God's gift to to the citizens...

Edited for truth.

widdershins
09-25-2010, 10:35 PM
Oh hells yeah! Drinks are on Widds!

Garrison
09-25-2010, 10:36 PM
Mad props to Byron.

Is it to early to call MVP?

namelessentity
09-25-2010, 10:37 PM
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/d1r3/inconceivable.jpg

Amazing, truly amazing

Brick, how many tries did it take you to catch just one mafia member?

Rai
09-25-2010, 10:41 PM
So, I take back everything I said at the end of today.

While not as exciting, this is still aces.

Just wow.

Adam
09-25-2010, 11:38 PM
My only regret is...

Okay, I have a lot of regrets.

GG Byron you crazy drunk.

chady
09-25-2010, 11:55 PM
Sweet Jesus, this is crazy.

I'm not kidding. I think Byron may be Mafia Jesus.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 02:11 AM
Adam was pretty obvious (see even my flavour self knew it. Also shivam's flavor text is amazing), but regardless: great job Byron!

Merus
09-26-2010, 02:49 AM
My computer's failed! I'm at an internet cafe.

I see Byron is tearing it up. Goddamn, dude.

Edit: looks like I just needed to reseat the RAM and everything's spiffy. Considering one stick had a crooked line of dust on it, I strongly suspect that was the problem.

Brickroad
09-26-2010, 04:50 AM
Brick, how many tries did it take you to catch just one mafia member?

MY BALLS IN YOUR THROAT, BITCH. THAT'S HOW MANY.

Seriously though, Byron, are you clairvoyant or something? Fucking hell.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 05:19 AM
MY BALLS IN YOUR THROAT, BITCH. THAT'S HOW MANY.

Seriously though, Byron, are you clairvoyant or something? Fucking hell.

Doesn't Byron have your balls hanging above the fireplace? I reckon he's doing the opposite of what they tell him to.

JohnB
09-26-2010, 05:59 AM
I suggest that all future Mafia games have only one power role, and that it be named 'Byron.'

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 06:47 AM
I hate waiting through nights.

Paul le Fou
09-26-2010, 06:47 AM
on some level it does make me really sad how hostile we've been to alpha since he got here, but he really doesn't make it easy to roll out the talking time carpet of niceness.
we need to start fresh somehow.

He can invite his "friend" who's really good at mafia to come play a game with us! He might even be able to keep the friend from acting exactly like him! Account hacking is a serious threat though.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 07:20 AM
He can invite his "friend" who's really good at mafia to come play a game with us! He might even be able to keep the friend from acting exactly like him! Account hacking is a serious threat though.

Joking aside, I doubt you folks would like to play with the guys I know. Because I learned to play from them, and you really hate the way I play.

Tock
09-26-2010, 07:33 AM
It's Byron's game, and we're all just playing in it.

I hope you guys are enjoying the flavor text =)

I'm really digging it. Great stuff.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 07:40 AM
It's Byron's game, and we're all just playing in it.

Flaw in the setup, if you ask me. The Town Drunk is far too strong a role - mod confirmation at will AND a pick between three great abilities to do so with is too good.

Kylie
09-26-2010, 08:40 AM
I'm inclined to agree, though if I hadn't found two Mafia I would be "the reason we lost the game".

Adam
09-26-2010, 10:31 AM
Flaw in the setup, if you ask me. The Town Drunk is far too strong a role - mod confirmation at will AND a pick between three great abilities to do so with is too good.

I was thinking that the only role with a mandatory mod confirmation is the day kill. Would it be too much to balance this out with a Mafia whose power is a one-shot daykill? It seems a little odd to have a role that is only in the game so that one aspect of another role is less broken, but I can't think of what else the one-shotter could do that would be interesting and not broken.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 10:36 AM
I was thinking that the only role with a mandatory mod confirmation is the day kill. Would it be too much to balance this out with a Mafia whose power is a one-shot daykill? It seems a little odd to have a role that is only in the game so that one aspect of another role is less broken, but I can't think of what else the one-shotter could do that would be interesting and not broken.

Lots of options! I'd try to come up with flavour first in this case, though, since you need relatively weak abilities that are still significant enough to be of use.

The Town Drunk - a crazy, unpredictable player who may do any of the following ONCE per game, at any time. If acting during a day phase, their identity will be revealed, and the action will occur within 24 hours--'

The main thing, though, is the fact that you have been mod-confirmed to be town. That's pretty powerful, and Byron was right to confirm himself on day 1 - though maybe he should've used a different power, admittedly.

shivam
09-26-2010, 10:36 AM
its funny how different this is from the last game, which was almost entirely the same ruleset, but with all the power roles offed almost immediately.

Merus
09-26-2010, 10:38 AM
I don't know, that second day kill was all skill. It's a powerful role, but only in the hands of a player who knows exactly how to use it - and it has a very obvious tell. The balance for roles with public knowledge is that they paint a giant mafia target on them - if the mafia never feel like it's necessary to take the shot, well then that's their loss.

This is, incidentally, why I prefer role-less games - it's a lot easier to ensure that the game's balanced, because winning so often comes down to what roles the best players got.

Tanto
09-26-2010, 10:42 AM
This is like the bizarro M3! Just as wordy and combative, but this time, the Citizens are dominating.

Day 2
~Posts #501-828~

The second Day opens with the discovery that Destil and McClain142 have both been killed during the night.

Widdershins opens the debate by accusing dtsund right off the bat. He hastens to assure the Citizens that he's not holding dtsund's early vote or frequent vote-switching against him, but rather that dtsund jumped on the Merus bandwagon with "particular fervor." However, once Byron revealed that he'd been punking the Mafia, dtsund switched his vote at the last minute. Widdershins's argument is that dtsund was a Mafia trying to get an innocent Merus lynched, but once he "saw the writing on the wall", he sold out Dizzy to maintain his credibility. Dtsund later defends himself by arguing that the best move a Citizen can make on Day 1 is follow in the wake of a confirmed Citizen, and points out that widdershins did the exact same thing. Dtsund accuses widdershins, and Alpha Werewolf follows along, accusing widdershins of being a Mafioso trying to make hay out of one of his fellows' death.

Byron finds the cogency of widdershins's argument to be suspicious -- as though he'd gone over it with someone during the night. Javex says that something doesn't feel quite right about widdershins, and tries to bait him into betraying himself.

Spineshark notes that there are no obvious voting patterns among the dead, and suggests examining the body of Dizzy voters for evidence. Byron agrees, pointing out that the most likely places to find Mafia are in the first few Dizzy voters (before Dizzy was in any real danger of being lynched) and the last few (after it was more or less a foregone conclusion).

Eddie and Brickroad wonder as to which of the night kills was the responsibility of the Vigilante. Brickroad can't bring himself to believe that any Vigilante would be so cold as to kill McClain142 on the first night two games in a row, but Eddie sees Destil as enough of a threat that the Mafia would want to remove him ASAP. Merus later agrees, saying that he doesn't think a Vigilante would murder Destil on the first night unless he was damn certain. Widdershins wonders if the Vigilante felt compelled to kill someone just to let the Citizens know he was still alive after Day 1's bloodbath.

Brickroad still finds Merus suspicious after the latter's Day 1 fumble regarding Byron's innocence. Spineshark agrees that it would be nice to know for certain where Merus stands, but this isn't pressing enough to kill him over it. Brickroad then turns his attention to Nodal, who has been playing a low-key game after laser-focusing on a single target in previous games. Nodal kind of shrugs his shoulders at this, and Byron comes to his defense, saying that playstyle changes are a "super-weak justification" for suspicion.

Eddie argues that Byron has not been converted by the Don, as the Citizens have raised too much of a stink about the possibility for it to be viable. Tock reminds him that in previous games, the Mafia did just that for just that reason, and warns him against trying to out-double-think the Mafia.

Alpha Werewolf says that there is no point in trying to work out the reasoning for the Vigilante's kill, so the Citizens shouldn't even bother with it. This kicks off an excruciating argument, spanning several pages and referring to almost every previous game, involving Alpha Werewolf, Brickroad, and a cast of thousands, regarding topics as diverse and sundry as whether certain topics should be verboten from discussion, Mafia jargon, the value of non-Talking Time Mafia experience, Alpha Werewolf's Mafia skillz, Brickroad's Mafia skillz, personal grudges, and oh God my skull. This tumor of a discussion lurks in the background of every conversation until it finally settles down around the late 600s.

Somewhere in there, Eddie makes a long post in which he ranks each player's "stink level" based on their voting patterns. From this, he finds dtsund and JohnB to be the smelliest players around.

Rai posts a digest of JohnB, who so far has not appeared during Day 2. There's a bit of discussion as to the merits of the digest format, then they get down to brass tacks. JohnB had made the argument that Wheels was a secret Mafia mastermind, and was trying to fish around for potential roles (namely, poking Byron to see if he'd change his vote).

Merus and Byron go over Byron's Big Play from Day 1, with both agreeing that the ease at which a bandwagon against Merus (based on almost no evidence) sprung up is deeply suspicious. Merus has to pause the thread at one point in order to teach a Baby's First Bandwagoning class. Tock examines the Merus timeline and ends up coming to the conclusion that either Wheels is Mafia or neither he nor Merus are. Based on the voting patterns, he expresses suspicion of McClain142, Umby, dtsund, namelessentity, and spineshark.

JohnB and dtsund fence for a page or so. Adam steps up to bat for dtsund, saying that his last-minute vote switch is actually less suspicious than staying put would have been. Byron notes that Adam voted for dtsund last night, so it's weird that he would suddenly support him. Byron votes for Adam, and at Eddie's suggestion, tries to change it -- this fails, thus confirming that Byron is still clean. (Shivam is so pissed at this bit of metagamery that he turns Byron into a normal Citizen from this point forward.) Brickroad and Nodal follow along with Byron. Widdershins raises an eyebrow at this, saying that while the case against Adam is okay, it's predicated on dtsund being dirty as well, and the case against dtsund is currently much stronger.

Javex accuses Eddie of being useless in a "sound and fury, signifying nothing" kind of way, posting massive analysis posts which seem to lead in one direction, but then heading into another. Widdershins likes this argument, as does namelessentity.

Torgo raises the idea that Brickroad and Alpha Werewolf are on the same side and staged their slap fight. Both Alpha Werewolf and Brickroad shoot this theory down almost instantaneously.

After a load of discussion as to the merits of Byron's case against Adam, votes against Adam begin to pile up in the waning hours of the day. Adam wins fairly handily, and is lynched. He is revealed to be Mafia.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 10:42 AM
I don't know, that second day kill was all skill. It's a powerful role, but only in the hands of a player who knows exactly how to use it - and it has a very obvious tell. The balance for roles with public knowledge is that they paint a giant mafia target on them - if the mafia never feel like it's necessary to take the shot, well then that's their loss.

Mostly Adam being rather stupid to be honest. But regardless, I'm saying that the role itself is far too powerful, nothing about Byron's play.

You don't really need to know how to use the role. Here's how: Shoot or Investigate somebody on Day 1.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 10:46 AM
As awesome as this game is so far, this is one reason I'm kinda against role-heavy games. You play one and start thinking "Hmm, this is pretty unbalanced. Let's add this other role to balance things out..." and the game becomes more of a Byzantine mess where players are more focused on keeping track of just how all the powers work than working out who is and isn't Mafia.

Which is why, where I play, you are strongly encouraged to submit your setup to a reviewer (mostly veteran mafia players) in order to balance it out. I did so with both my suggested games.

Kylie
09-26-2010, 10:52 AM
Mostly Adam being rather stupid to be honest. But regardless, I'm saying that the role itself is far too powerful, nothing about Byron's play.

You don't really need to know how to use the role. Here's how: Shoot or Investigate somebody on Day 1.

That is how you USE the role.

That is not how you find and kill Mafia with it.

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 10:58 AM
That is not how you find and kill Mafia with it.

Yeah. As I was saying, the role is powerful, but the skill of the player is a different thing entirely.

You realize we do this here too, right, only we do it in public? Were you there when I submitted my own "sheriff" game and everyone took it apart? Please stop with the "well where I play" stuff.
I wasn't trying to attack you all. And as I've said before, I think there's something to be said for a mystery setup, rather than a known one.

McClain
09-26-2010, 11:13 AM
Hey, guys, I think we should save the complaining about the setup talk until AFTER the game is over, okay? I think Shivam is doing a great job, and we can put all this energy into the next one.


I wasn't trying to attack you all.

:rolleyes:


Flaw in the setup

Mostly Adam being rather stupid

where I play

widdershins
09-26-2010, 11:23 AM
Yeah, the "pssh, anyone coulda found adam" comes off as pretty arrogant and dismissive. Let the man have his due without turning it around into "I totally coulda done that too."

Alpha Werewolf
09-26-2010, 11:23 AM
Yes, I do think the town drunk is too good. I am also having a lot of fun and think the game is great.

Yes, Adam make a stupid mistake and Byron capitalised. What of it?

Yes, I did just tell you what happens where I play.

EDIT: Yeah, the "pssh, anyone coulda found adam" comes off as pretty arrogant and dismissive. Let the man have his due without turning it around into "I totally coulda done that too."
Is that how I come off? Woah Byron, sorry. I missed it! You can see that in my post right after Adam made his mistake. I'm saying: It was definitely a mistake, great job seeing it and putting together the case. Coul I have done it too? Maybe. We will never know. I'm NOT trying to take away your achievement here.

Nodal
09-26-2010, 11:26 AM
Alpha just play where you play then. You're ridiculous in the mafia threads.

Dizzy
09-26-2010, 11:27 AM
I will say, in the interests of being a jackass, that Byron has had it all too easy. But if he can find the next of us tomorrow (vigilante buckshot doesn't count), I will be convinced he is a Mafia grandmaster. His play thus far does highlight how utterly weak all the other top players are though.

widdershins
09-26-2010, 11:31 AM
Yeah, it's how you came off. Highlighted not in the interest of making you feel bad, but if you honestly want to see where you're giving the impression the strongest:

Mostly Adam being rather stupid to be honest.

This was in response to Merus saying "whether or not he had power, Byron's pick was all skill". It reads, "no it wasn't, he just was lucky enough to be playing against an idiot" which is kind of insulting to two parties.

Destil
09-26-2010, 12:19 PM
Just caught up. Wow.

Behold the power of a confirmed innocent who isn't Brickroad.

shivam
09-26-2010, 12:23 PM
i'd love to hear your thoughts on the game, destil, especially since it's your rules.

Destil
09-26-2010, 12:31 PM
i'd love to hear your thoughts on the game, destil, especially since it's your rules.

Now that would be telling.

After the game, though. Sure.

Adam
09-26-2010, 01:35 PM
I can't wait until someone realizes what my real mistake was :D

Brickroad
09-26-2010, 02:32 PM
I can't wait until someone realizes what my real mistake was :D

Drawing the Mafia stick in a game where Byron's a townie?

widdershins
09-26-2010, 03:22 PM
I can't wait until someone realizes what my real mistake was :D

Hey now, no trying to game the town after you've been killed. Save it for after the game's over.

(though that brings up an idea -- HEY DM! What say we create an 'afterlife' wave so the dead guys can talk about the game stuff without worrying about revealing anything to the rest of us? I'd do it, but then, I'm not dead... YET)

Adam
09-26-2010, 03:53 PM
Hey now, no trying to game the town after you've been killed. Save it for after the game's over.

Yeah, I was trying to make it as vague as possible, but I'll save it for the post game.

shivam
09-26-2010, 08:15 PM
Hey now, no trying to game the town after you've been killed. Save it for after the game's over.

(though that brings up an idea -- HEY DM! What say we create an 'afterlife' wave so the dead guys can talk about the game stuff without worrying about revealing anything to the rest of us? I'd do it, but then, I'm not dead... YET)

nah.

Kylie
09-26-2010, 08:43 PM
Yeah, this way the endgame is a giant reveal for EVERYONE.

Eddie
09-26-2010, 09:13 PM
Yeah, this way the endgame is a giant reveal for EVERYONE.

I know during the very first Mafia game the first newly killed players (i.e. me and a few others) tried to PM our thoughts and stuff but it broke down quickly. Talking with other dead players about the game isn't nearly as interesting when you have no effect on it.

- Eddie

Merus
09-26-2010, 10:07 PM
Yeah. As I was saying, the role is powerful, but the skill of the player is a different thing entirely.

Hey! That's what I was saying. You were saying the exact opposite! I'm on to you.

I accuse Alpha Werewolf

Javex
09-26-2010, 11:15 PM
Just now getting caught up.

I think Byron has the Shinnin'.

Alpha Werewolf
09-27-2010, 03:52 AM
Yeah, this way the endgame is a giant reveal for EVERYONE.

Byron was the Serial Killer.

Javex
09-27-2010, 03:31 PM
Byron rolled every single power role in the game, to include the Mafia side ones.

Adam
09-27-2010, 04:28 PM
Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A START MAFIA

shivam
09-27-2010, 06:46 PM
Hot, fresh mafia action! Come and get it!

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/88362456.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=49768722B86DC0FD30E2C52710C80D207F4CE9BCDFDEC3CC 1FED08CE2BB349D3E30A760B0D811297

namelessentity
09-27-2010, 08:11 PM
Hot, fresh mafia action! Come and get it!

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/88362456.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=49768722B86DC0FD30E2C52710C80D207F4CE9BCDFDEC3CC 1FED08CE2BB349D3E30A760B0D811297

mmm, tastes like... justice!

dtsund
09-27-2010, 09:23 PM
Shivam: Your image doesn't seem to work.



Brought to you by the people of #TalkingTime:

dtsund Aha, Brick's posted his first analysis of the season.
09:13 Diz !
Diz sweet
Diz wtf dtsund
Diz you lied to me
09:14 dtsund I did no such thing.
09:15 Garrison I'm reading it right now
dtsund I wasn't talking about Mafia, Dizzy.
09:16 BongoBill Yes you were. Everything is about Mafia. It's all some grand metagaming plot.
Diz I went over to scibbbey dot com and saw
BongoBill Now go crazy trying to guess which player told me to say this.
Diz scibbe scabbe scooby dooby loopy mookie.

Alpha Werewolf
09-27-2010, 11:22 PM
Damnit, now I can't post that nice analysis I made overnight.

You guys have got this in the bag! Beat those dang outlaws!

Incidentally: Will post the analysis as-is once the game ends.

EDIT: ...Any chance that the dead will get access to the mafia night wave? We won't use it for evil, I promise!

shivam
09-28-2010, 12:17 AM
no one gets access to anything till post game.

Alpha Werewolf
09-28-2010, 09:56 AM
Hot damn. I usually don't do digests because they're boring as shit. But this has been quite... invigorating. Is this what detective work feels like?
Yes! Join us!

Dizzy
09-28-2010, 09:59 AM
OH SNAP

Brickroad
09-28-2010, 02:02 PM
Yes! Join us!

Why would I want to join you? You're dead.

BUUUURRRRRNNN.

Alpha Werewolf
09-29-2010, 01:38 PM
Why would I want to join you? You're dead.

BUUUURRRRRNNN.

You don't know that.

Adam
09-29-2010, 03:16 PM
:?

No metagaming, corpse.

Javex
09-29-2010, 04:19 PM
This is the BEST game.

shivam
09-29-2010, 04:29 PM
with the WORST gamemaster.

widdershins
09-29-2010, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure I see the point of having a power that susses peoples' roles (as opposed to alignments) if they're going to get invalid information on 30% of them.

shivam
09-29-2010, 04:39 PM
/shrug
that's for the person with the role to figure out. Mafia's a game about information and information manipulation. You get what you get, and work out the rest.

Javex
09-29-2010, 04:41 PM
with the WORST gamemaster.

You stop that talk NOW young man.

Destil
09-29-2010, 05:01 PM
Umby, regardless of how things work out (and I don't have any inside information, not really), that was a phenomenal play! Well done.

Umby
09-29-2010, 07:50 PM
*takes a bow*

Thank you, thank you. Whether we can use this for the right things, I've yet to see. I'll probably talk more about what I was thinking for the first two days after the game is done...

Dizzy
09-29-2010, 08:23 PM
It's post #1004 in the main game thread and people are still confused about the rules.

I don't think it's the players anymore.

(Like I originally thought!)

Garrison
09-29-2010, 08:42 PM
Man, this is the best game of Mafia yet. Shine on you crazy diamonds.

Tock
09-30-2010, 12:23 AM
Umby, regardless of how things work out (and I don't have any inside information, not really), that was a phenomenal play! Well done.

This, for serious. I'm even posting in the meta-thread so you can be sure my Umby props are for reals and not some dastardly plot.

Alpha Werewolf
09-30-2010, 03:42 AM
Props to Umby and Eddie. MAD props.

Also: I'm feeling like a fucking prophet here. Wait until you guys see my analysis post that I was gonna post as soon as this day started.

Dizzy
09-30-2010, 07:12 AM
You should have posted your analysis before, y'know. It's going to be hard to tell the veracity of your predictions now that the events are passing over.

Alpha Werewolf
09-30-2010, 09:18 AM
You should have posted your analysis before, y'know. It's going to be hard to tell the veracity of your predictions now that the events are passing over.

I assume that since we all keep up to the honor system in not, say, talking through PMs whenever we like, you guys will be able to trust me. But regardless, posting it would've hurt the integrity of the game.

Dizzy
09-30-2010, 11:55 AM
You want to bring me down in revenge? Bring it hard. You don't think you can pull that off? Make a real case against someone else. We're all just trying to talk each other into killing someone right now, and if you're thinking you can talk me into the noose, you better try harder than that.

Tock makes me all wet down there. Hubba hubba.

Adam
09-30-2010, 12:32 PM
Also: I'm feeling like a fucking prophet here. Wait until you guys see my analysis post that I was gonna post as soon as this day started.

If you really were a prophet, you would have realized it wasn't worth bothering to write up said analysis.

McClain
09-30-2010, 07:26 PM
This game is concentrated Awesome Sauce. It's Awesome Gravy. I want to dehydrate it into Awesome Powder and snort a line of it.

Are the voices inside Brickroad's head getting louder?

Brickroad
09-30-2010, 07:35 PM
Are the voices inside Brickroad's head getting louder?

What's that, Princess? Shall we make the ugly little man go away?

McClain
09-30-2010, 07:38 PM
What's that, Princess? Shall we make the ugly little man go away?

Is that why you killed me last game? I mean, there has to be some logic to it. :p

widdershins
09-30-2010, 10:28 PM
and widdershins, well... There were whispers among some of them that he had a dark past, where he went by a different name.


Hahaha! I love you so much right now, Nich.

Nodal
09-30-2010, 10:33 PM
Man Widdershins, I'm sorry you had to be the guy to break our streak but shit was just crazy today.

Alpha Werewolf
09-30-2010, 11:00 PM
I could MURDER you all today.

...And then I remembered that widdy could be the Vet/Snitch. MAFIA!

Dizzy
09-30-2010, 11:05 PM
I could MURDER you all today.

oh my god

Alpha Werewolf
09-30-2010, 11:07 PM
oh my god

What, you thought shivam gave you ALL the potential roles?

Destil
09-30-2010, 11:12 PM
http://media.chick.com/tractimages80490/0046/0046_03.gif

.. and you and Alpha are both looking to get in on the D&D game?

Yeeeah. Think I may be out that week.

Nodal
09-30-2010, 11:20 PM
.. and you and Alpha are both looking to get in on the D&D game?

Yeeeah. Think I may be out that week.

HOW WILL WE BE ABLE TO TELL?

Brickroad
10-01-2010, 05:36 AM
Man Widdershins, I'm sorry you had to be the guy to break our streak but shit was just crazy today.

Not to be the guy who keeps playing at night, but how do you know we've broken our streak?

Nodal Digest #2 coming tomorrow!

JohnB
10-01-2010, 09:26 AM
Not to be the guy who keeps playing at night, but how do you know we've broken our streak?

Nodal Digest #2 coming tomorrow!

Wow. That's pretty incriminating.

Tanto
10-01-2010, 09:29 AM
Day 3
~Posts #829-1074~

The Citizens awaken to find that the Mafia got to Alpha Werewolf before Brickroad could. (Or did they!?)

Namelessentity notes that Adam had spent most of his time pulling hard for a dtsund lynch, so that might be a place to start.

Byron says that the death of Alpha Werewolf may be an attempt to implicate Brickroad, and suggests combing the posts of Dizzy and Adam for clues. He furthermore warns the Citizens not to get too upset about a possible Citizen lynch at this point. As the Citizens have found two out-and-out Mafia, it's likely that at least some portion of the remainder will reveal as Citizens.

Dtsund votes for JohnB, presumably as a result of their sparring the previous Day. Eddie likes JohnB as a lynch target, but points out an even juicier target: Widdershins, who had argued at some length against lynching Adam on Day 2. Eddie and widdershins discuss a few of the latter's posts from Day 2, with widdershins protesting that Eddie is reading him wrong.

Brickroad comes out with a case against Nodal, claiming that Nodal is filling the role of "Mafia who posts easily-verifiable facts, but nothing of use", and that Nodal abandoned the thread in the middle of a discussion because he knew Byron had Adam dead to rights and didn't want to give the Citizens any more evidence. Nodal responds by saying that Brickroad is misreading him and is also Brickroad, then fingers Wheels, claiming that Adam was sending secret messages to Wheels during the day.

Wheels and Nodal fight for a bit. Brickroad again tries to get those two (as well as spineshark) to explain why they dropped out of the thread once Byron nailed Adam. A long discussion ensues as to whether Wheels jumped into line behind Byron quickly enough. Tock eventually points out that this is all very irrelevant, and Byron backs him.

Javex jumps on Eddie's case again, claiming that he spends a lot of time talkin' theory without actually putting his money where his mouth is. Namelessentity acknowledges Javex's concerns but points out that a Mafioso probably would not scheme to prove Byron's innocence the way Eddie did.

Eddie makes another theory post in which he mentions in passing the number of remaining Mafia, including a Don convert. However, Umby immediately outs himself as the Oracle and points out triumphantly that there cannot be a convert, due to the fact that Dizzy was the Don and he was killed on Day 1 before he had a chance to act. Attention shifts to Eddie as he hastily tries to cover for himself, but eventually gives up on this and outs himself as the newsie. [Editor's Note: Still looking for a setting-neutral term for this one, guys!] He explains his previous statements as to the count.

Byron points out that since conversion talk was nothing more than a boogeyman, anyone who was too frightened of it may be suspect.

Lots of rules discussion.

Tock posts a complete digest of every mention of the Don. From this he gleans that widdershins was the player most invested in keeping the specter of conversion alive, which had the side-effect of fomenting distrust in the Citizens' confirmed voice, Byron. From this he accuses widdershins. Widdershins counter-accuses Tock in response.

Spineshark expresses some irritation at constantly being fingered as a possible threat.

Byron fingers namelessentity as his next target, mostly for making content-free posts. Brickroad follows along as usual, but Tock and widdershins's slap fight attracts the attention of several other players, including Eddie, Wheels, and namelessentity, who come down against widdershins. Despite some half-hearted votes in support of Byron from Merus and dtsund, widdershins earns the noose, and is killed. He is revealed to be a Citizen.

Nodal
10-01-2010, 09:33 AM
Not to be the guy who keeps playing at night, but how do you know we've broken our streak?

Nodal Digest #2 coming tomorrow!

Brick I hate to be the other guy playing in the meta thread, but in the Planescape game the Mafia didn't know who the snitch is. Is that different now? How do you know that?

I'll delete this post if the others get deleted but I couldn't just let that idiocy sit there.

Brickroad
10-01-2010, 09:36 AM
Save your defenses for the game thread, nerd.

Nodal
10-01-2010, 09:38 AM
Save your defenses for the game thread, nerd.

I can do this too! Brickroad's user text is upside down! Upside down...LIKE THE MAFIA ARE OPPOSITE FROM TOWNIES?!

shivam
10-01-2010, 10:52 AM
guys, guys, none of that. the game is over for the day. please respect that.

---
also, i think i actually am starting to like the rules confusion. someone told me that the GM is just another piece on the board, sowing chaos and confusion, and to be used to win for your side however you can. It's an interesting take on a game predicated on misinformation, and adds a lot of paranoia to a game that might be a little *too* powers heavy.

That said, I still love tons of power roles. And in hindsight, eddie, that gamebreaker ploy was marvelous.

Frankly, though? I'm just here because writing flavor text is my favorite thing. I want to DM again just to be able to do that =)

luckily we still have lots of game to go.

JohnB
10-01-2010, 11:04 AM
shivam, your flavor presentation of Widdy's aftermath (especially the part with Byron) was awesome. Keep it up!

Michelle
10-02-2010, 09:25 AM
Only 12.5 hours until day starts again -- then I can finally get my fix and the shakes will go away.

(AGGGGH, why am I so into watching OTHER PEOPLE play Mafia games?!)

shivam
10-02-2010, 09:15 PM
Only 12.5 hours until day starts again -- then I can finally get my fix and the shakes will go away.

(AGGGGH, why am I so into watching OTHER PEOPLE play Mafia games?!)

i hope you and the other lurkers are enjoying the show =)

Kylie
10-02-2010, 10:00 PM
Holy shit, shivam. That was fantastic.

Alpha Werewolf
10-02-2010, 10:14 PM
Anybody else see the parallels to M2W?

shivam
10-02-2010, 10:37 PM
also, if this game had a subtitle, it'd be "The Ballad of Sally".

Destil
10-03-2010, 01:06 AM
shivam Presents:

Mafia 6: Dead Man's Gulch

The Ballad of Sally

(based on a rule system by Destil)

Michelle
10-03-2010, 07:59 AM
i hope you and the other lurkers are enjoying the show =)

Hells yeah! Loving the flavor text. :)

namelessentity
10-03-2010, 08:23 AM
I find it humorous that people gave Alpha a hard time for using the acronym WIFOM, but it is now becoming very common. If it hadn't come from Alpha, it probably would have been quickly accepted.

widdershins
10-03-2010, 08:43 AM
I find it humorous that people gave Alpha a hard time for using the acronym WIFOM, but it is now becoming very common. If it hadn't come from Alpha, it probably would have been quickly accepted.

It's not a terrible acronym. I think the problem was that he threw it out there without any explanation until pressed. People got their feathers ruffled because AW's nonchalant use of "standard mafia nomenclature" reads as another instance of him asserting "Stand aside newbies, I've totally played this before".

Does that make sense?

Tanto
10-03-2010, 09:03 AM
So, I, um, totally threw this together the other day. It's an idea for a power-heavy ruleset that works somewhat differently that the ones we've tried so far.

A few caveats:

1) I am NOT volunteering to GM. I'm just throwing this out there.

2) This is a rough draft. I tried for balance, but it's entirely possible (even probable) that I've completely flubbed something.

3) I'm not married to the setting. Like everything else written here, I spitballed it.

With that said, here goes:

You're a mage -- or at least, an aspiring one. Like everyone who dreams of practicing the mystical arts, you've journeyed to the Isle of Talktymia for training. Concealed at all times by a magical mist in order to protect it from scrying eyes and the prejudice of normals, the Isle is undoubtedly the most secure location in the world.

Or, at least, it should have been.

One morning you wake up only to find the vast academy deathly silent. Curious, you investigate -- and discover that during the night, all your instructors, the resident mages, everyone has been killed, savagely ripped apart. The walls are scorched with hellfire, and the smell of brimstone wafts through the halls. Only a small band of students, your fellow classmates, have survived. Together, you come to the only possible conclusion: Some fool mage has summoned devils into the world. Devils have the ability to cloud the minds of mortals and appear human, as everyone knows... and the faces of your fellow mages don't seem quite so familiar as they might have under a less stressful situation...

Silently, you begin going over your fledgling arsenal of spells in your mind. You're no master wizard, certainly, but you get the feeling that humanity is going to need all the help it can get to beat back this demonic menace.

Factions:

Everyone is either on the side of the Mages (innocent Citizen) or Devils (Mafia).

Mage Roles:
Just basic Mages. No special roles. However, Mages are a fair bit more powerful than the vanilla Citizens found in previous games. All Mages begin the game with 5 MP and are assigned at least one spell that they can cast (see below for the list). Each Mage may cast one spell once each full game Day. In other words:

--Scry one player at Night: Yes
--Holy Light during the Day: Yes
--Hypnotize one player during the Day and Fireball another at Night: No
--Scry one player at Night and Barrier another No
--Barrier two players at Night: No

In addition to spellcasting, the Mages must also lynch one player a day, via majority vote. (If no player earns a majority, whichever player receives a plurality is lynched.)

Mages Scry Innocent uniformly unless another effect is interfering.

Devil Roles:
--Devils. Basic demonic entity. No spellcasting capability, but may collectively choose one player each Night to kill.
--Rogue Wizard. The evil magician who summoned the devils into the world into the first place. Identical to a Devil in all ways except that he can cast spells. He draws from the same list as normal mages with a few exceptions: There are a handful of spells (like Holy Light) that he can't cast, and one spell unavailable to the good Mages (Entrance) that only he can. Scrys Demonic.
--Greedy Mage. This Mage didn't know anything about the Devils until they started showing up, but now that they're here, he's decided to throw in his lot with them in the hopes of gaining more power. This Mage has the same skillset as a normal Mage, but he wins when the Devils do and loses if the Devils and the Rogue Mage are all killed. As an added wrinkle, the Devils don't know who he is and he doesn't know who the Devils are, so his task is to suss out his new friends without either revealing them to the good Mages or attracting negative attention from the Devils. There are a few spells that he can't cast. Scrys Innocent to the Innocent and Demonic to the Demonic.

Mages win when all Devils + Rogue Wizard are dead. (They do not have to kill the Greedy Mage.) Devils win when their numbers (including the Greedy Mage) are equal or greater than the innocent Mages.

Scry (1 MP): You probe with your mind to seek out the whereabouts of another player during the night. (PM the GM the name of one player, and at the end of the Night, you will receive a PM containing that player's allegiance and complete spell list. Can only be cast at Night.)

Barrier (1 MP): You generate a magical shield that blocks all harm. (PM the GM the name of one player, and all attempts to kill that player that Night will fail. If the player is not targeted, you get the MP back. Can only be cast at Night.)

Telepathy (1 MP): You use the power of your mind to communicate with another mage without speaking. (PM the GM a message. The GM will deliver that message to the target of your choice, and that target will be able to respond once, again through the GM. Can only be cast at Night.)

Holy Light (1 MP): A holy spell that invokes the name of God. This simple spell was designed to create light, but more importantly in this case, no Devil could possibly utter it, confirming your innocence. (PM the GM that you're casting this spell and the GM will inform all players that you are innocent. Can only be cast during the Day.)

Hypnotize (2 MP): This spell induces a deep sleep in its target. (PM the GM the name of one player. The following Night, that player will not be able to take any action -- including casting a spell. If that player is allied with the Devils, they cannot participate in Nighttime discussions that Night. If a player receives a Telepathic message that Night, they will receive it but will not have an opportunity to respond. This spell can only be cast during the Day, but it doesn't need to be announced in the thread. Just PM the GM.)

Curse (2 MP): You lay a debilitating hex on one player. (PM the GM the name of one player. For the rest of the game, whenever that player scrys, they will receive the opposite result. The player will not be told that they've been cursed. Can only be cast at Night.)

Mind-Merge (2 MP): An extremely risky magical gambit, as you attempt to become one with your target. (PM the GM the name of one player. If that player is innocent, you learn this, as well as their complete list of spells and how much MP they have remaining. They also receive the same information about you. In addition, neither of you are able to be killed that night. Beware, though -- if you target a devil with this spell, the backlash will result in you being instantly killed. Can only be cast at Night.)

Homunculus (2 MP): You create a magical construct, identical in appearance to yourself, real enough to fool all observers. (As long as the homunculus is out, attempts to kill you during the Night will fail and all attempts to scry you will reveal the opposite result. It will not save you from a lynch. If you are attacked in two ways at Night, the homunculus will only absorb the first attack. Can only be cast at Night.)

Fireball (2 MP): Throwing subtlety to the wind, you hurl a gob of incandescent magic at your target, incinerating them instantly. (PM the GM the name of one player, and that player will be killed. Can only be cast at Night.)

Tarot (3 MP): You leave your fate in the hands of fortune and draw a random magical card from the deck. (PM the GM that you're casting this spell, and the GM will select a spell at random and show it to you. You may then choose to cast that spell for free. Whether you cast it or not, you still lose your 3 MP. Can be cast anytime, but you will only receive spells that can be cast at the time you cast it -- in other words, no daytime Scrys or Fireballs.)

Word of Command (3 MP): This brutal spell allows you to coerce another player into casting a spell from their own arsenal. (PM the GM with the name of one player, and you will receive a list of that player's spells and remaining MP. You may then select one of those spells to force the player to cast. You make all decisions that spell would require. This overrides whatever spell, if any, that that player would have cast. If the player doesn't have enough MP to cast a spell, doesn't have a spell you want to cast, or is Hypnotized, tough titties. This spell can only be cast at Night. If you cast Telepathy, the recipient of your message will know it came from you, not the spell's caster. If you cast Mind-Merge using this spell, you're the one who merges minds, not the spell's caster. If you target a Devil with this spell, you won't get to cast a spell, but you will learn that player's allegiance.)

Resurrection (5 MP): Summoning forth all your magical might, you bring back a dead character from the mists of underworld. (PM the GM the name of one dead player. The next morning, that player will be returned to the game with their allegiance, spell list, and MP intact. Can be cast any time, but the player will not return until the next morning regardless.)

Entrance (All remaining MP): Using your dark arts, you dominate the mind of one of your weak-minded "colleagues". (PM the GM the name of one innocent player. Starting the next morning, that player will operate on the side of the devils and joins them in their Nighttime conversations. Only the rogue wizard can cast this spell. Can only be cast at Night. An entranced player cannot cast spells -- they are effectively converted into a normal Devil.)

Discuss. Or don't.

Alpha Werewolf
10-03-2010, 09:53 AM
I can already see an enormous problem - Holy Light. Remember how I said a lot of the Town Drunk's power comes from at-will confirmability? Well, by having everybody cast Holy Light on day 1, you've just created a huge bloc and probably won the game just by elimination (using Scry and such) from the on. And when only confirmed players remain? Well, that's easy. The townies scry each other, and then when the Entrance'd player presumably gambits and displays a guilty result on another player, two people fireball them both. Or lynch them both. Same deal.

How to fix: Remove Holy Light. Or be very careful with who you give it to. Be very careful with spell selection.

Tanto
10-03-2010, 10:01 AM
I can already see an enormous problem - Holy Light. Remember how I said a lot of the Town Drunk's power comes from at-will confirmability? Well, by having everybody cast Holy Light on day 1, you've just created a huge bloc and probably won the game just by elimination (using Scry and such) from the on.

Well, the idea is that there's only one or two instances of the spell, spread out among however many Citizens there are. I hadn't actually worked this out, but in my head Scry is relatively common, and the other spells run from uncommon to rare to not showing up at all.

Actually, my real worry about Holy Light is that someone might desperately need to cast it in the last few hours of a Day in order to stave off a lynch, but the GM won't be around to confirm it for them. With all the variables, this variant would seem to require the GM to be on top of everything at all times -- it's not a "check in every twelve hours" gig.

shivam
10-03-2010, 10:30 AM
my problem is one that i'm running into with M6-- the town is WAY WAY more powerful than the mafia. i like the general idea, but having every single townie with a role seems almost guaranteed to end the game in like two days.

widdershins
10-03-2010, 10:51 AM
my problem is one that i'm running into with M6-- the town is WAY WAY more powerful than the mafia.

Haven't looked much at Tanto's ruleset, but I can say that I strongly disagree with you about M6.

I don't really want to get into the details of why, because I don't want to give anyone still playing any ideas. I'm interested to see how things pan out -- remind me to go into more detail when the day's over (or just PM/IM me if you're personally curious.)

shivam
10-03-2010, 11:11 AM
and man, the GM would have to keep track of every single person and every single spell they cast. way way too fucking ridiculous for any GM, especially with the copious amounts of bullshit posts that fly around during a mafia game. there's a reason we have you guys bold your choices--its the only fucking way we can do it. GMs don't read every post, they just look for the accusations.

--ok, i edited that out, you guys are right.

Umby
10-03-2010, 11:22 AM
You really shouldn't be talking about this game until afterwards, because who really knows if we're bulldozing?

Not saying that we aren't, but you never know.

Paul le Fou
10-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Shivam: Now who's the one talking about the game too much? :P



Depending on how the powers are distributed, that may be an interesting ruleset. If scrying or holy light are too widely available it would break the game in half, but the simple fix is to limit their availability severely.

Does everyone have one spell? Two? Some people more than others? Would some spells be way more prevalent than others?

The GMing headache would be particularly bad, like shivam said. It would require specific bolding in the text if cast publicly (what are the lines between public and private spells?) and probably a PM to the GM on top of it. You'd need to make everything happen at certain intervals, like once every 24 hours, because no GM could possibly be online for all the different daytime activity, and you don't want it to come up randomly. And yeah that's a lot of bookkeeping, with different MP and spells and all.

And too much town power might be an issue. In a role-heavy game, seems like one solution would be to buff the bad guys. More roles/powers for them. Sometimes it seems like simply not being known and being able to hide are enough to give them a clear advantage, and occasionally it seems like power roles rig the game against them from the start.

It reminds me of dtsund's mafia fortress 2 without the auctioning aspect. I generally like the idea of not power roles but items/spells/etc. that more people have access to.

Michelle
10-03-2010, 12:14 PM
I really like Tanto's idea, but I'm just a lurker and probably won't ever play, so...

Maybe the solution is to have some regular citizens who can't cast any spells. Also, I think it would be neat to have a white mage (who could use MP to cast barrier, resurrect, that sort of thing), black mage (basically would end up being a vigilante), etc.

Alpha Werewolf
10-03-2010, 01:21 PM
less wait moar posts

Dizzy
10-03-2010, 02:20 PM
I want to throw some game ideas too, since I'm not playing Mafia and just sitting around stewing.

I want to bring back the concept of doing a game where nobody knows each other. This would require a separate message board altogether, with players getting assigned usernames. Basically communism. Hahahahaha. I passed this off in the TT Chatsubo, where some of the people took a shine to it. I know I proposed this before but I'm doing it again because I want to at least see this idea happen, and see if it really does extinguish the insane amount of metagaming and personalization of the games. I want to make it as cold and antiseptic as possible.

Also, I'm proposing this new game palette/ruleset. Please read and criticize mercilessly.

CON AIR 2: CONNED AIRED

Premise:

A train carrying military prisoners is brutally hijacked by its own prisoners. All of the personnel are dead. All of the security guards are dead except for two: one who survived, and one who helped orchestrate the mutiny. The prisoners plan to take the train as fast as they can to a deserted airport where an airplane awaits them. Time is short because the mutinous prisoners failed to stop some of the personnel from alerting the authorities and now the train will soon be bombed, but that's not going to be their only worry.

Two teams (Prisoners):

Bad Prisoners (Citizen)
Good Prisoners (Mafia)

25 percent of all the players who sign up will be randomly selected to be mafia.

Two power roles (Security):

Assassin A (Bad Prisoners) (Vigilante)
Assassin B (Good Prisoners) ("")


Objective:

Each team must vote to have one player from another team killed.
Citizens get 72 hours to decide (Day Phase), Mafia get 48 hours (Night Phase).
The person with the highest vote is either shot (Day Phase) or stabbed (Night Phase).
Time can be shortened if (1) the entire team has voted and (2) the players who contributed the tallies to the highest vote vote once more to ratify their decision early.
Citizens win when all the Mafia are dead. Mafia wins when Citizens are either all dead or numerically equal to the number of Mafia alive.


Storyline Circumstances:

The train will reach its destination at the end of Day 6. By that time the train will have been bombed and attacked by military, and the surviving prisoners will have got on the plane and resumed their escape. From then on the game will take place on the plane.
Because of this, 3 players will be randomly selected to die. If the GM is personally upset by the performance of the players thus far, he may randomly select more.
I may have the GM do this on a different day (or pick another kind of storyline circumstance) just pull the rug off people's feet more effectively.


Power roles:

Each team has one person who will be randomly selected to be a security guard. The team will not know who this person is. The person selected will not know they are a security guard.
The power role will not be knowable to the team and will also not be active unless a specific player from the opposing team is killed. That specific player from the opposing team who can activate the power role will be randomly selected. There will be no way of knowing who this player is.
Once that happens, the power role becomes active and the player may decide to alert the other team members if they wish, and also use their power role.
Frequency of power role usage will be determined in stages. The lower your stage, the lowest amount of times you can actually use your power. Amount of time will be measured in Night Phases.
The random selection process for those specific players will work like this: out of X amount of players, 6 will be randomly selected to bless players with power roles upon their death with the next stage of their role. 3 from one team, 3 from the other team. For one team to use one power role to the max, they must have killed 3 players from the opposing team.



Power role usage:

Assassin

You will be allowed to kill a player of your choosing during the Night Phase and only the Night Phase. You must make your decision before the end of the phase.
Once again, frequency of power role usage will be determined in stages. The lower your stage, the lowest amount of times you can actually use your power. Like so:
You will only be allowed to kill a player once every 3 Night Phases in the beginning. To increase usage, you and/or your team must kill another specific player from the opposing team (randomly selected). Then you will be able to use your power once every 2 Night Phases. After killing another player who can bring your power to the next stage, 1 Night Phase and that is the max.

EDIT:

I would have Shivam apply his mad prose skills to this game.

McClain
10-03-2010, 02:49 PM
Holy. Shit. I love this game!

Kylie
10-03-2010, 02:57 PM
POSE AS A POSSE

BECAUSE SHIT JUST GOT REAL

Michelle
10-03-2010, 03:01 PM
THIS GAME IS BLOWING MY MIND.

Is this really happening?!

shivam
10-03-2010, 03:08 PM
oh MAN!
shit just got way exciting! Who is lying? Who is telling the truth?

ONLY I KNOW!!!!!

Paul le Fou
10-03-2010, 03:10 PM
Innnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting