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  #61  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Lucas View Post
A zombie army that completely ruins any chance he has to be stealthy. What kind of thief goes around with a constantly moaning, slow-moving pack of minions warning everything within a mile that he's coming?

A dead thief, that's what kind.

Wait.
I think you've stumbled upon my arguement exactly.
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  #62  
Old 08-14-2009, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
I decided to try out DCSS and I'm enjoying it quite a bit, though mostly all I do is die in embarassing ways. My favorite is eating meat that makes you sick and dying in a puddle of my own vomit...
Mwahaha! My plan to get everybody else as addicted to this game as I am is working. Between the tiles, optional mouse usage, and robust tutorial, I think it does the best job of easing in new players of any of the PC roguelikes.

The first few dozen deaths as you learn how everything works are always fun and memorable. Meat and corpses are helpfully color-coded for your eating pleasure -- if they're green they'll poison you, if they're orange they'll make you sick, if they're red they'll make you start rotting, and if they're purple they'll mutate you.

As a new player, is there anything about that stood out to you that I haven't talked about? I'm so used to the game now that I'm afraid of taking things for granted and forgetting to mention them.
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  #63  
Old 08-14-2009, 01:23 PM
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Minions!
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  #64  
Old 08-14-2009, 01:38 PM
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I wonder how much more I'd get out of the tutorial if I played it again now that I have a dozen games or so under my belt?
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  #65  
Old 08-14-2009, 01:50 PM
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Probably not a huge amount, I would guess. It's mainly there to introduce the controls and the core basic mechanics, and after a dozen games you probably have already picked up most of that stuff.

It teaches you how to play the game, but learning how to play successfully is an endless and painful journey punctuated by repeated bloody death.
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  #66  
Old 08-14-2009, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Boojum View Post
Mwahaha! My plan to get everybody else as addicted to this game as I am is working. Between the tiles, optional mouse usage, and robust tutorial, I think it does the best job of easing in new players of any of the PC roguelikes.
I see it does have an OS X port, so I think I'll be picking this up too. I just downloaded Angband and Nethack for the first time in ~10 years and ever, respectively. Angband's the only one I've ever played. I thought all roguelikes were just that hard.
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  #67  
Old 08-15-2009, 03:06 AM
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At some point I hope we get to see a Demonspawn Chaos Knight that worships Xom.
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  #68  
Old 08-15-2009, 12:06 PM
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AHH! I can't seem to play this in Windows 7, under 64 bit.

Maybe there's a way around it.
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  #69  
Old 08-15-2009, 12:43 PM
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No idea about that myself, but several of the developers regularly post at rec.games.roguelike.misc

You might be able to get some help there.
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  #70  
Old 08-15-2009, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCar View Post
AHH! I can't seem to play this in Windows 7, under 64 bit.

Maybe there's a way around it.
You could always ssh over to crawl.akrasiac.org and play there... without tiles, of course...

About the choice of gods:

I usually play with Trog, since eschewing magic in favour of being able to hit things really hard is always a fun play choice.

Xom is pretty annoying because of the completely arbitrary stat drains that he can bring to the table.

Do the demon / zombie minions have the same limitations as other necromantic pets with regards to not moving between levels? If there's one thing I don't like about DCSS, it's my inability to cart around a horde of shambling corpses between levels ("Alright everyone, now let's all hold hands while we walk down the stairs").

I'd suggest going with Xobeh, because I've never played with cards and want to see how it's done.
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  #71  
Old 08-16-2009, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SpecBebop View Post
I usually play with Trog, since eschewing magic in favour of being able to hit things really hard is always a fun play choice.
Yeah, Trog is pretty amazing. My first victory was with a mountain dwarf berserker of Trog, and nothing could stand in his way, especially once I found an amulet of resist slowing to cancel out the main penalty for berserking.

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Originally Posted by SpecBebop View Post
Do the demon / zombie minions have the same limitations as other necromantic pets with regards to not moving between levels? If there's one thing I don't like about DCSS, it's my inability to cart around a horde of shambling corpses between levels ("Alright everyone, now let's all hold hands while we walk down the stairs").
It used to be that any minions standing next to you followed you up or down the stairs, but I actually haven't played a necromantic character since they changed that in the 0.5.0 version last month, so I'm not entirely sure how it works now. From the patch notes, I think it's just mindless undead (skeletons and zombies) that are now unable to take the stairs.

Also, we have a surprisingly close race to choose Octoprime's god. The vote now stands tied at four each for Nemelex, Xom, and Yredelemnul, so if anyone wants to chime in or change their vote to a different god, do it now before I start playing again tomorrow.
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  #72  
Old 08-16-2009, 10:41 PM
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Xobeh please. I want to see if fate is truly in the cards.
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  #73  
Old 08-17-2009, 01:30 AM
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Still pulling for Xom over here, because watching somebody being jerked around by an uncaring god is fuuny as hell.
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  #74  
Old 08-17-2009, 05:58 AM
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In repsonse to things that aren't overtly obvious to me as a new player:
well, my main problem so far has been in decision making at critical moments and I know a lot of that comes with experience.
I don't know how to recognize potential danger, like for example one of my deaths happened because i tried to run into melee range against a centaur hunter.
I don't know when to cut my losses and run/use an emergency item. Is it at 50% health? 25%? So far for me, its been when I run up to hit something and it takes about half my health off.
I don't know if maybe I'm rushing forward too much but on average, I feel like my bag of tricks for getting out of emergencies is typically lacking and once I get to dungeon levels 6-8, I usually die. Should I be leveling up more before I move down? Is there a player level to dungeon level correlation?
I tend to think of my characters as expendable. They are going to die, so I'm not very attached, and tend to play very aggresively. With everything being so random, sometimes you just get really lucky, or just not too unlucky, so is there some tipping point where you've gotten lucky enough or played long enough that the current character is pretty good and I need to switch into a more conservative play style?
I always seem to have way more unidenfied weapons/rings/amulets/armor than I have id scrolls, but especially weapons. Should I just find something decent and ignore all the other junk I get? Should I try to use-id all these weapons? So far, I've picked a main weapon type, and ignored all the glowing weapons that aren't of that type.
I know this is a lot of stuff, and I know that I'm learning most of it as I play through mistakes, and this LP has definitely made things easier to learn. The tutorials, tiles and mouse interface most certainly are why I tried DCSS, though I found that it didn't take me long to start using more and more keyboard commands, since they typically show up in the little pop up boxes when you hover your mouse over something. I would say Crawl would definitely be a "gateway drug" into rougelikes for the more moddern pc gamer.
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  #75  
Old 08-17-2009, 07:25 AM
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I guess I'll throw in a vote for Yredelemnul. The dead leading the dead just seems fitting. The trickster/chaos dudes also sound fun, but I'm sure we'll have more chances.
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  #76  
Old 08-17-2009, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
well, my main problem so far has been in decision making at critical moments and I know a lot of that comes with experience.
Yeah, getting a sense for how dangerous specific monsters are to specific types of characters, how much danger you're in at any given moment, and when to hit the panic button, are all things that there's no substitute for experience on. As for the other stuff, I think there's some disagreement on the optimal way to play even among successful players. I can tell you how I personally approach them, but I'm by no means a grandmaster of the game.

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Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
I don't know if maybe I'm rushing forward too much but on average, I feel like my bag of tricks for getting out of emergencies is typically lacking and once I get to dungeon levels 6-8, I usually die. Should I be leveling up more before I move down? Is there a player level to dungeon level correlation?
In general, my style is to fully explore every floor before moving on (unless there's a particularly nasty encounter that I'm trying to avoid). But I don't usually stick around longer than that to level up, since it takes a long time, makes you run out of food, and is boring. It does take time to build up a repertoire of ways to get out of emergencies, so one of the most important skills to develop is spotting sticky situations before they turn into emergencies, so you can get away or deal with the problem somehow.

There's a rough player level to dungeon level correlation, in that both go up to a max of 27. But your level is going to vary depending on your race, how thoroughly you explore, and how much time you've spent in dungeon branches. Your skill ranks end up being more important than character level in most cases anyhow, so don't worry about it too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
I tend to think of my characters as expendable. They are going to die, so I'm not very attached, and tend to play very aggresively. With everything being so random, sometimes you just get really lucky, or just not too unlucky, so is there some tipping point where you've gotten lucky enough or played long enough that the current character is pretty good and I need to switch into a more conservative play style?
That's a good attitude to have, especially early on. I tend to become a bit more conservative after the early levels, since I've already invested a decent chunk of time into the character. And having more items and options in my bag of tricks means that when I die, there's a much higher probability that it's because I screwed up in some way, and there's something I could have done smarter.

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Originally Posted by Taeryn View Post
I always seem to have way more unidenfied weapons/rings/amulets/armor than I have id scrolls, but especially weapons. Should I just find something decent and ignore all the other junk I get? Should I try to use-id all these weapons? So far, I've picked a main weapon type, and ignored all the glowing weapons that aren't of that type.
I use-ID everything, since there aren't nearly enough ID scrolls to go around. This occasionally causes trouble with cursed items, but the side effects usually aren't too bad, and remove curse scrolls are pretty common. It's generally best to stick with a particular type of weapon that your race is good at, since starting over with a new type means losing the benefits of the skill you've built up. It can be worth it if you find something really great, but is generally more trouble than it's worth.
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  #77  
Old 08-17-2009, 04:11 PM
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Haha. Labyrinths nearly made me cry the first time I went into one. Then I started going into them over and over for the nice loot.

What's also particularly (not) enjoyable is getting sent to Hell by one of the lower-depth monsters. On one memorable excursion I managed to die not three steps from the damned exit due to a pile of monsters blocking my path. I think that was also the last game of Stone Soup I've played in a while too.
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  #78  
Old 08-17-2009, 04:16 PM
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well, all that pretty much tells me that i'm not in left field and if i keep playing, eventually I'll get good at this. I rolled a troll berserker that was pretty fun because I could ignore all the weapons and armor and just had to worry about scrolls and potions. I found a new set of golden stairs for me the orcish mines i think it was called I had my piety way up and could reliably call for allies and me and my two headed orc friend murdered 5 massive groups of orcs before I go down a set of stairs and come face to face w/ a rock troll or something who smacks me once for 1/2 my health. Of course he follows me up the stairs and the only wand I had was a wand of enslavement. so i slave the guy and go down, thinking maybe it'd be like the little undead guys you can't take between levels... well, that darn thing followed me down, so I think maybe I'll run and let him get killed my all the orcs... no luck, mr rock troll single handedly dropped all of them and all my summoning of allies had pulled my piety down, so my phone a friend lifeline failed and rock troll comes out of charm status with a vengance. It did not end well...

I knew I was probabaly a little out of my leauge after the first two or three massive fights, and I probably should have went back to the normal dungeon to build up piety again or gotten some more skill or just not been so greedy, but I kinda went with the berserker maybe a bit too much and waded into big fights. I am finding on average, I'm living longer and not making as many silly mistakes. I sure hope I don't have to fight the ghost of that troll berserker anytime soon though...
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  #79  
Old 08-18-2009, 01:23 PM
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Welcome back to Episode 4 of Let's Play Dungeon Crawl, wherein Octoprime finds religion and impersonates a vacuum cleaner.



Since the voices in Octoprime's head completely failed to reach a consensus between Yredelemnul and Nemelex, he breaks the impasse by picking the one whose altar requires the fewest steps to get to. Our hero is nothing if not lazy!



Alternative tiebreaker reasoning: Octoprime still resents being unable to worship at the altar of Yredelemnul in the middle of that lake. What kind of asshole god of death puts his altar where only fish and merfolk can get to it, anyway?




Alternative alternative tiebreaker reasoning: If you guys really want to see Yredelemnul's powers, it's as easy as starting a new death knight character. No classes start out worshipping Nemelex, so you have to survive and make it to an altar to see what he does.



But regardless of the reasoning, a quick prayer later and Octoprime becomes a proud new convert to the church of the trickster god, eager to start laying some card-based smackdown on his foes.





We also take this momentary respite of safety in the temple to quickly look at the character screen, showing Octoprime's various stats and resistances, as well as his new allegiance.



We don't actually have any cards to fling just yet, though. Each god has certain behaviors that they appreciate, and that increase your favor with that god, gradually giving access to more gifts and powers. Nemelex is apparently the universe's greatest pack rat, and wants his followers to sacrifice items to him (by standing over them and praying.) So that's just what we do, heading up from the temple to find the corpses and weapons of the orcs we killed on the way in.




A quick tap of the 'p' key later, and they all vanish into the ether, and Octoprime is rewarded with slightly increased piety and a symbol of summoning to indicate that he's a bit closer to being granted a deck of summons. From here on out, Octoprime will be assiduously currying favor with his god, and every single item that he doesn't have an immediate use for is going straight into Nemelex's warehouse.



Onward into danger!





Octoprime's ever-increasing skills and equipment mean that this once-scary ogre is now thoroughly stabbified (and his carcass and giant club sacrificed for good measure.)
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  #80  
Old 08-18-2009, 01:24 PM
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I sure hope Octoprime is okay...

Wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more, say no more. A wink is the same as a nudge to a blind bat, say no more, say no more.

EDIT: It's like I prophesied that the post would happen. Awesome.
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  #81  
Old 08-18-2009, 01:24 PM
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Mummies get an extra advantage for worshiping Nemelex, since all the potions and food that other races would pick up become sacrifice fodder instead. Octoprime takes full advantage of his nonexistent metabolism to play housekeeper for a day, revisiting all of the dungeon's cleared upper floors to sacrifice the items cluttering them up. In the process, Nemelex rewards him with his very first deck of cards. He wastes no time trying it out in battle, and his first card is...



...The Crusade. This would banish any nearby enemy summoned creatures, but is useless at the moment. But still, the deck is identified as a deck of summonings, full of other cards that are more likely to be useful in battle, and we've taken our first step on our path to becoming the ultimate Card Master. [Insert Yu-Gi-Oh reference here. I've never seen the show, so just use your imagination and pretend that I made one. And that it was really clever and hilarious. OK?]



We also find a set of +2 elven scale mail that I overlooked the last time we passed through. In keeping with fantasy stereotype regulation 396.8b, elven armor is expertly crafted to be supple and comfortable, and always counts as light armor, meaning that it gives Octoprime a nice protection upgrade without interfering with his stealth or dodging abilities.



Octoprime continues in his mission as a one-mummy clean-up crew, and is rewarded with a couple more decks. The deck of dungeons has a bunch of weird and not-terribly-useful powers that change your surroundings. This Minefield card creates extra traps in your general vicinity, occasionally nice for helping train Traps skill, but that's about it.




Although Octoprime dodges most of this ogre's attacks, he does get in one smack for 21 hit points, aptly illustrating why we were running away from them earlier. The kill brings him up to level 9, and gives another point of dexterity.




When most characters find decks of cards as treasure, they have to spend time equipping the deck before they can draw from it. One of Nemelex's granted powers is the ability to mystically pull from any deck in your inventory without having to put away your main weapon. Octoprime puts that power to good use while facing down yet another ogre, and gets his first actually useful result! the Repulsiveness card summons an ugly thing (yes, that's its real name) to fight for us, helping to soften up the ogre. It's not quite obvious because the ugly thing is all red and tentacle-y, but in the upper right of its tile, there's a little heart showing that it's on our side.



Another pull from the deck of dungeons gets the Map, which reveals the layout of the dungeon around us... except that we're on a level we've already fully explored, so it is, once again, useless.



With Octoprime's growing piety comes Nemelex's second granted power, the ability to take a peek at two of the cards in a deck so you have a bit better idea of what to expect when you draw from it. Nemelex prefers his followers to trust in the complete randomness of the cards, but he does eventually give various ways to mitigate the vicissitudes of chance, or to stack the deck in your favor.

In any case, the upper floors are now completely spick and span, and Octoprime won't have to be embarrassed if company comes to visit his dungeon, so it's time to resume his trek downwards. But first, he decides to run some errands and go shopping. Remember how last time, I said that I should have bought the unidentified cloak at the antique store? Well, we're going to rectify that oversight with the help of one of Crawl's (fricking awesome) interface features.



I don't remember exactly where that store was, but a tap of CTRL-F brings up the search prompt, and we put in the item name.



It immediately finds where it is, along with the price. If we didn't remember what the exact name was (such as if we didn't have a handy screenshot to fall back on), simply typing in 'cloak' would bring up a listing of all the cloaks we had seen, and we could easily find the right one.



After selecting it, the game sends us zooming on our way on the shortest path to our destination, and in a matter of seconds, we arrive. If we had spotted a monster on the way, the game would immediately break out of travel mode to let us deal with the threat.

Last edited by Thraeg; 08-18-2009 at 01:55 PM.
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  #82  
Old 08-18-2009, 01:25 PM
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Wow! Good thing we decided to come back. Auxiliary armor slots (cloak, boots, gloves, hat) are pretty uncommon to begin with, and ones with special magical properties are exceedingly rare. This one can be activated to turn Octoprime invisible, which as you can probably imagine is incredibly useful for a thief looking to sneak up on enemies.



The only problem is that the success rate is based on the Evocations skill, which is pretty low at the moment. But that skill also governs the usage of cards, so we'll be training it up pretty quickly, and the cloak should become a very helpful tool after a while.



To help deal with an imp (irritating creatures that don't do much damage, but have great resistances and health regeneration, and love to teleport away), Octoprime draws another card from the deck of summonings. The Dance summons an animated weapon (shown by the little glowy red symbol in the upper-left of that dagger's tile).

Notice how the dagger, unlike the ugly thing, doesn't have a heart symbol in the upper-right? Yeah. Well, I didn't, and just headed in to attack the imp.

At low levels (not sure if it's based on the quality of the deck or the character's skills), summons have a small chance of being hostile when they appear. After all, the luck of the draw can't always be in your favor.

Anyway, I apparently got flustered and missed a couple of screenshots, but what happens is that Octoprime is beating up the imp and suddenly notices that his health is going down much faster than it should, because the knife is fighting for the wrong side. A scroll of blink should have gotten him safely to the stairs, but an orc wizard chooses just that moment to wander around the corner and block the path, and the only escape avenue left is to run down the hallway and hope for the summon to expire...



...but flying daggers move a lot faster than do mummies, and it soon catches up and continues its relentless carving. As a last-ditch effort, Octoprime turns to his trusty wand of disintegration, which has gotten him out of so many tight spots before, and is quite effective against inanimate objects...



...but the dagger stubbornly resists the magic, and...



(moment of silence)

.

.

.

.

.

Well, all things must come to an end, and we knew that Octoprime's luck had to run out eventually. I'll admit, though, that I don't think I've ever seen such a concentration of useless or negative effects on any of my previous Nemelex worshippers. Usually the cards are a powerful, though unreliable, ally, and I've never before had a character meet its end as a direct result of them. Still, he did well enough to land at #15 on the high-score list for this computer, so he can't be too disappointed.

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It's a roguelike, so hopefully my inevitable defeat will be something memorable! Like, my pet Cat went feral for some reason, or something.
I think you pretty much jinxed yourself there, buddy. Crawl doesn't have NetHack-like pets, but you have the distinction of being my only character to get killed by their own summoned creature.

Rest in peace, Octoprime.







And so here ends the brief but eventful existence of Octoprime the octopus mummy bee-girl Yu-Gi-Oh-player Gambit vacuum cleaner. Here also ends episode 4 of Let's Play Dungeon Crawl. (And here begins the chorus of "I told you so"s from everyone who voted for Xom and Yredelemnul.)

Next time:

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  #83  
Old 08-18-2009, 02:15 PM
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Oh boy, I wonder how I can jinx my namesake's unlife in the dungeon?
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  #84  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boojum
[Insert Yu-Gi-Oh reference here. I've never seen the show, so just use your imagination and pretend that I made one. And that it was really clever and hilarious... IN AMERICA.]
Fixed, Only one I know

- Eddie
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  #85  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:21 PM
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OctoPrime died because he didn't listen to the Heart of the Cards.
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  #86  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:50 PM
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Should have gone with Xom. He certainly probably wouldn't have given you the deck to instill false hope. He just would have dicked with you outright.

Though maybe if OctoPrime had had more money, he could have done away with the rules. Because he was so rich he wouldn't have needed to follow the rules, see. It is a Seto Kaiba reference. Why do I know that name.
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  #87  
Old 08-18-2009, 06:51 PM
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He could've said "screw the rules" because he has the money, so to speak.
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  #88  
Old 08-18-2009, 09:33 PM
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Even if you have no interest in watching the actual show, the hilarious fan-abridged one is. It really is.

BROOOOKLYN RAAAGE!!!
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  #89  
Old 08-19-2009, 12:47 AM
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Pro-tip: Using a Deck of Summoning in a one tile wide passageway with an ogre on one end is not the best of ideas.
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  #90  
Old 08-19-2009, 01:13 AM
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I always believed in you, Octo-Mummy!

Even when you didn't believe in me!
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let's play , roguelike , rougelike , smoimo rote

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