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Destil
08-04-2010, 08:29 PM
Maybe it was better than ending up in the dead-book. One night you're having a grand time at the local kip. The next morning you discover anyone who attempts to escape this little corner of Sigil either found their way back to the center, or was never herd of again.

There was a cutter who knew the dark of it, though. Name was Destil. Was. Just some backwater prime from a berg you'd never herd of, of course you didn't listen. "We've been sealed off from the city, mazed. And it's because someone or something here has brought the blood war with them. The lady doesn't like that." Who's ever herd of an entire city block being mazed, anyway? Figured he had a bit too much bub that night.

The next morning he found was dead in his bunk. That put the fire to the rest of you.
http://www.destil.org/M5/LadyOfPain.png

The Birdcage
A planescape themed mafia game.

Players
Alive (8)
Brickroad
Byron
Javex
Martinet
Nodal
fanboymaster
kaisel

The Dead Book (12)
Alpha Werewolf - Lynched day 1. Known to be a citizen.
McClain142 - Killed night 1.
namelessentity - Killed night 1.
Paul le Fou - Lynched day 2. Known to be a citizen.
spineshark - Killed night 2.
dtsund - Lynched day 3. Known to be a citizen
JohnB - Killed night 3.
dwolfe - Lynched day 4. Known to be a citizen.
Kayma - Killed night 4.
shivam - Killed night 4.
Umby - Lynched day 5. Known to be a citizen.
Mr. J - Killed night 5.

Roles
1 Sensate (Inspector)
1 Aasamir (Angel)
1 Mercykiller (Vigilante)

11 citizens, including ? with other citizen roles

5 Fiends (mafia), including ? with other roles

Rules
There are two teams: citizens and fiends (mafia).

The citizens win by killing all the fiends. The fiends win by having a number of members equal to the number of citizens at the start of a day.

The game starts during the day. During the day phase, no players may communicate with one another about the game except in this thread. No private messages, no IM, no talking about it in real life (if some players live close enough to one another for this to be possible), nothing but this thread. Discussion in this thread, however, is permitted at any time during the day phase. Editing your posts is forbidden, so everything you say will be a matter of public record.

Additionally, during the day, players may make accusations against other players. To make it clear whether you are doing so, please use the following phrase, bolded:

I accuse Destil.

Accusations are not set in stone once made, and may be changed at any time. Newer accusations supersede older ones.

Day lasts for 72 hours and ends at 10PM MST (GMT-7) No votes made after this time will be counted, and players should not intentionally post later than this. If you have any confusion about time zones please ask, I will likewise try and check in the thread ahead of time to let you know how long you have.

At the end of each day the player with the most votes will be lynched (a player must be lynched each day). If two players are tied, the player accused first (including retracted votes) will be lynched. Their team (but not role) will be made public, then it will be night.

Night lasts 48 hours and ends at 10PM MST. During the night the fiends meet and choose one player to be killed, they learn the role of the slain player via PM at the start of the next morning (so they can discuss anything after learning it). Citizens with special powers used at night PM the DM (if a player does not it is assumed they take no action that night). No information is revealed about night actions aside from players killed.

Players are expected to post at least once per in-game day. At the 24 hour mark players will be given a warning via PM, if they do not respond by the following morning (in game) they will be killed. If you wish to leave the game contact the DM and a replacement may be arranged.

Dead players still win if their team wins but may not participate in the game in any other way. They are allowed a single farewell post, however, that may have no game-relevant information in it.

Roles - Citizens
Clueless (citizen): No special powers.
Sensate (inspector): Each night the sensate PMs the DM with the name of one living player and get the result of plain or fiendish.
Aasimar (angel): Each night the aasimar may PM the DM with the name of one living player to protect from death. Any effect that would kill that player that night is prevented, the prevented kill (including the identity of the person who was targeted) is announced the next morning and the Aasimar loses the use of this power. On the 4th day and every 3 days thereafter (7th, 10th et cetera) if the protection has been used they regain the use of the power.
Mercykiller (vigilante): At night the Mercykiller may PM the DM with the name of one living player to kill. After doing so they can not kill another player until 3 days have passed (so a Mercykiller who kills a player on night 1 can not kill again until night 4). The mercykiller the same information as the sensate about the target. The Mercykiller is revealed to be fiendish if inspected.
Dustman (coroner): The dustman is PMed the roles of players killed at night the following morning.
Godsman: If killed during the night, the godsman reincarnates on the morning of the day after (they are out of the game for only one day). If lynched the godsman is not reincarnated.
Guvner: Each night the guvner can PM the DM with a single role, the DM will respond with the number of living players in the game with that role.
Cipher: The cipher may do any the following once during the game, at any time. If they wish to act during the day they PM the DM and the action is resolved by the next vote tally (within 24 hours).

Kill one other player. If done during the day their identity is revealed in the thread. The cipher does not learn anything about the killed player.
Investigate one living player. The cipher gets the same information as the sensate.
Prevent all other player deaths for one night. The cipher is killed in the victim's place, this power acts after the aasimar's (the cipher if not killed if the aasimar's protection is used, but both powers are still expended). The Cipher must PM the GM before the end of the night to use this power.
Change their vote: After voting the cipher may not change their vote. If the cipher changes their vote before using this power it counts as using the power for the game.


Roles - Fiends
Fiend: May meet at night to discuss who to kill. They also start with the knowledge of the identities of all other fiends (except the Doomguard).
Succubus (don): Has all the standard powers of a fiend. In addition once during the game the succubus send a message to the DM (during the night the succubus always acts first, daytime conversions will happen within 24 hours and should a conflict come up with the cipher's ability to act during the day abilities are resolved in the order requested). If converted during the day the player joins the fiends discussion that night. If used at night the power takes effect that morning. In either case the player is only informed of the identity of the succubus by the DM. The player becomes a standard fiend, reguardless of their previous role (if any). This power has no special effect on the Doomguard, but the succubus learns that the target is in-face the doomguard if used as such.
Tiefling: Has all the standard powers of a fiend. In addition the tiefling is shown to be a member of the citizens when lynched and plain when inspected by the sensate.
Doomguard (devil): Counts as a member of the fiends and knows their identities at the start of the game, but does not join in the nighttime conversation (they abide by the same restrictions as a clueless). Instead once per night the doomguard may PM the DM with the name of a living player and is given their role in response.

Reveal
Please go here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=10425) and vote if you have not already. I'm still undecided on what to reveal about the actual game setup, but leaning towards the option of the number of fiends and nothing else. Which is winning the poll, as well...

Destil
08-04-2010, 08:30 PM
Working up the role PMs now. Light's up in about 2 hours 30 min (10 PM MST), no on may post before then.

EDIT:Role PMs are out. All players should have something like this sitting in their inbox:
Well, berk, what a fine mess you've found yourself in. It's not all bad, though. Some nice bub on tap, this place's got.

A tiny little corner of sigil sealed off from the rest of existence, fiends lurking in the shadows, and power mad faction members serving who knows what.
You are one of the clueless.
http://destil.org/M5/clueless.jpg
As a standard citizen you have no special abilities.

If you do not PM ME. I may have missed one or two in the hustle & bustle of writing them all up along with the rules.

Light's up in about 20 min. See you in the wards, berks.

Destil
08-04-2010, 11:00 PM
Light filled the streets, ebbing through the smoke, haze and soot of the city. The corpse of Destil was still warm, blood pooled from a shallow stab wound to one arm being the only visible injury. His other hand still grasped the windowsill above the bed, as if he fell attempting to leap to the alley below.

"Poison." Umby leaned over the body solemnly. "Osyluth."

"A what?" Nodal looked confused.

"A Bone devil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#boneDevilOsyluth), you leatherhead." Kayma scoffed.

"How's a cager to know that?" dtsund looked puzzled.

"The way his muscles are almost slogging off the bone. And also this." Umby pulls open the shutter: a sheet of solid ice blocks the dim light from the street, causing a cool mist to roll down into the room.

It is now day.

Standard disclaimer: All flavor text is to be taken as just that.

namelessentity
08-04-2010, 11:07 PM
Ohk, I'm going to assume the standard horror scenario in which the doctor which identifies the poison is either going to turn on us all or going to be the first to die. Considering it is Umby, I'm expecting the latter

Umby
08-04-2010, 11:17 PM
I think you'll be happy to know, Nameless, that I actually laughed out loud. Let's hope that doesn't come true.

fanboymaster
08-04-2010, 11:19 PM
Now I kind of want it to come true.

shivam
08-04-2010, 11:21 PM
alright, ya berks, let's get crackin'. Who's the first to the wall?

namelessentity
08-04-2010, 11:50 PM
Unless some evil being throws themself on the mercy of the court, we probably won't hit day 1. I think the first thing we should do is discuss who is the scanner and how we are going to auto-lynch him

Seriously though, because of the restrictions on when the Aasamir and Mercykiller can use their powers it is very different to M1 and M2. We can't use them for verification and we can't rely on them to protect everyday. A new strategy on how to use these people effectively is first on the block, I think.

Secondly, with the fancy new roles, I know we don't know how many of each there are, but do we even know if they are in the game at all?

Javex
08-04-2010, 11:51 PM
You're actin' a little too informed! HE'S A WITCH!

...wait, maybe that's a little hasty.

shivam
08-05-2010, 12:01 AM
yeah, that is a good point. we have no idea if any of the roles are actually in the game, right? aside from the obvious fiends and clueless?

could we very well be playing a blank game?

Kylie
08-05-2010, 12:14 AM
We've played the last couple of games blank. I think with this iteration it'd be silly to assume we're playing blank, since the point of this game was POWER ROLES GO GO. If nothing else, we KNOW there's a Sensate, Aasimar, and Mercykiller. We can't exploit them the way we have in the past, but at least those few are there. If not more. Even with those three, we have way more firepower than in M4.

kaisel
08-05-2010, 01:18 AM
I think our best bet, for now, is to ignore the potential roles, and kind of focus on the roles we know that we have.

The Sensate's strategy is pretty easy, I think, pretty much act the same as the inspector did. If they're about lynched, then it might be good for them to release their findings, if they're innocent, then we can trust 'em.

The Aasimar and the Mercykiller are a little more difficult to think about. They both can only use their powers intermittently, which means the strategy has to revolve around them using their powers at opportune times, or just trying to guess/relying on luck. Waiting means they have a higher chance of dying before using them, guessing means that we can't really use them when we need to. And verifying the Aasimar through the Mercykiller isn't as useful, except that it buys us a day (more if there are multiple Aasimar), since I'm assuming the Fiends would want to kill a confirmed innocent if they could, to destroy a voting bloc.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 01:46 AM
Here are a couple of thoughts:

-We should ignore the existence of power roles for now. There is no plan that we can make and that's just the way I like it.

-The Mercykiller shouldn't shoot unless he's absolutely sure, or there's a majority asking him to. We shouldn't rely on him.

With that out of the way, I'll accuse shivam because he talks in a stupid way.

dwolfe
08-05-2010, 03:32 AM
I'll accuse Alpha Werewolf because no one should have thrown out the first accusation 3 hours into the long, drawn out days here in this quarter. Why, I reckon half the people here in this inn are still asleep!

JohnB
08-05-2010, 05:54 AM
I'm pretty sure that it _is_ known that we have Aasimar & Sensate roles, but any/all of the rest is questionable. Also, we should bury that berk Destil's body somewhere- it's starting to stink up the place.

JohnB
08-05-2010, 06:05 AM
Oh, and a Mercykiller. 1 of each (angel/inspector/vig).

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 06:20 AM
I would just like to go on the record:

In M3 my strategy was to get as many people talking as possible, and people said that was stupid, and eventually killed me for it. (Okay, I was a bad guy, but still! That would have been my strategy even if I weren't.) The team that didn't do enough talking ended up in the dead-book.

In M4 my strategy involved two all beef patties etc., and in the postgame I was chastised for not doing enough to get people talking. And again, the team that didn't do enough talking ended up in the dead-book.

If you got a bone-box, you better rattle it early and often. If you don't, I'll make it my job to put so much heat on your ass you'll think a portal to Gehenna opened up in there.

We clear on all that? Good.

I accuse Alpha Werewolf.

Two reasons:

1) Berk came out swinging, which makes me think he's tryin' to peel us. He's either got some dark he's not sharing, or he's a useless bubber.

2) Actually, given the fact that he keeps pitching the same Mafia game, over and over, unceasingly, despite knowing we don't want to play it... I'm certain he's a useless bubber. Certainly the player we'll miss least, if actually Clueless.

Umby
08-05-2010, 06:45 AM
Although I think that we're getting nowhere with this, like I said with Nodal in M3, don't accuse someone randomly, or you're getting lynched. It just happens that Nodal was right....

*ahem* ANYWAYS, I vote for Alpha Werewolf because we should have really abstained today, and anyone who voted first is very silly.

JohnB
08-05-2010, 06:47 AM
I only pause to accuse/bandwagon on Alpha given that history shows exactly how many bandwagon lynches against a colossally leatherheaded dolt who turns up clueless? And, really, what could be more dense than accusing six seconds into this mess before half the people have piped up? We don't really know what the chant is, yet. To be clear, I'm not defending Alpha at all. I'm just pointing out that stupid play is usually the hallmark of the clueless, not the fiendish.

Umby
08-05-2010, 07:11 AM
Alpha Werewolf knows what he's doing, or at least he played like he did in past games. I'm not saying that we all need to accuse him, because he's just accusing someone. I'm just making the argument that we have no better leads. I guess we could/should abstain, but we get no information that way anyhow.

I'm all for cancelling my vote for Alpha if there's some great reason not to.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 07:53 AM
I have no words. So I'll let myself do the talking:

I don't know about you guys, but where I played we have a random phase. This is the phase of the game where we are generally silly.

I accuse Jack Thompson.

Just because I voted for an ingame player doesn't mean it wasn't a joke. It's called the Random Phase. However, I'm very happy with the reactions here.

-dwolfe was the first to attack me, but I'm not getting anything suspicious from him.

-brickroad jumped straight on (and I'm oh so tempted to mention his mafia-catching track record). My problem with him is the second reason, as well as the general reason for voting me. brickroad says that reproposing my game every time is a sign of being useless. Apparently you haven't noticed the number of people who have been warming up to it. But let's put that aside. Before the next phase of this arguement, brick, have you read M2W or the mafia speakeasy for that game?

-Umby is doing the usual followup for newb town, and makes the crucial mistake of thinking that a nolynch is a good idea. Regardless, no mafia vibes from him right now.

-JohnB is currently leading my mafia charts. He not only immediately assumes I'm a "collosally leatherheaded dolt who is also clueless", he takes care to mention that he's totally not defending me at all. THAT, my friends, is scum play - town should NOT have to worry about how they're actions look.

Unvote because frothing demand bird.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 07:55 AM
To clarify, Alpha, you're useless because you're stupid. I know you're stupid because you keep trying to pitch your shitty game to us despite us very clearly telling you we don't want to play it.

This is also an indication of your stubbornness and maybe, just maybe, insanity.

You win this game by being smart or lucky, and I don't get the feeling you're very lucky.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 08:04 AM
To clarify, Alpha, you're useless because you're stupid. I know you're stupid because you keep trying to pitch your shitty game to us despite us very clearly telling you we don't want to play it.

This is also an indication of your stubbornness and maybe, just maybe, insanity.

You win this game by being smart or lucky, and I don't get the feeling you're very lucky.

You haven't answered my question, and you've ignored the fact that people are warming up to my game (off the top of my head: Byron, Calories Man, nameless).

This post might have been a cheeseburger for all the good it did - please don't just repeat what you already said.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 08:07 AM
Why should I let you distract me with the M2W speakeasy? I'm not trying to figure out whether you're a fiend or not. I suck at finding mafia/rogues/things/fiends.

The reason I want you dead is: if you're a fiend, yay! I need you dead anyway. And if you're a clueless, well, chances were you'd do more damage to us had we left you alive.

First lynch is always gonna be a shot in the dark. Might as well take a shot against the guy at the ass-end of the gene pool.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 08:12 AM
Why should I let you distract me with the M2W speakeasy? I'm not trying to figure out whether you're a fiend or not. I suck at finding mafia/rogues/things/fiends.

The reason I want you dead is: if you're a fiend, yay! I need you dead anyway. And if you're a clueless, well, chances were you'd do more damage to us had we left you alive.

First lynch is always gonna be a shot in the dark. Might as well take a shot against the guy at the ass-end of the gene pool.

I wanted to see if you've read M2W/speakeasy because of your assumption that I am "at the ass-end of the gene pool". The mafia in M2W wanted to kill me on multiple occasions, because I played well. They killed dtsund night 1 because he was experienced and (presumed by them to be)smart. Later they said that I am what they feared dtsund would become.

Your assumption is based on nothing, which is why I dislike it.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 08:14 AM
Your assumption is based on nothing, which is why I dislike it.

So fight me, ignore me or accuse me at your whim. It's not like you're really going to die again. Everyone else in this game is too smart to follow Brickroad on the first bandwagon.

I just wanted to make my intentions, and my opinion of you very, very clear.

Kylie
08-05-2010, 08:15 AM
The problem with bandwagoning Alpha is that if he's Mafia, I gotta buy the bub for Brick, 'cause he caught a bird.

The OTHER problem with bandwagoning is that if he ain't some kind of fiend, then we've decided on a deader with 60 hours left in the day, and from previous mafia experience that can mean we sit around doing all the NOT-TALKING that Brick is sure is gonna land us in the dead-book. And for once, I agree with Brick. We need to keep bone-boxes a-rattling.

I will vote for Alpha as a player. Note how that's not bold -- I am not voting for Alpha now. I like Alpha as a suspect, though, and may vote for him later. But we've made a pattern of lynching the bloodthirsty EVERY game, just about, and it ain't caught us any bad guys. On the other hand, maybe Alpha knows this.

If nothing else, let's get some theory out there. This way I know who to accuse when words like "auto-lynch" come up. If not accuse, at least punch in the eye.

I'm willing to believe that Alpha is not a bad player. But he is a bad communicator, at the very least.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 08:17 AM
So fight me, ignore me or accuse me at your whim. It's not like you're really going to die again. Everyone else in this game is too smart to follow Brickroad on the first bandwagon.

I just wanted to make my intentions, and my opinion of you very, very clear.

If it's just prejudice, fine. I got the feeling you're making this vote from facts, and that's why I lashed out.

For what it's worth, I'm well aware of your opinion of me, and I respect that.

Kylie
08-05-2010, 08:19 AM
Dude, we're only a handful of posts in. There ARE no facts.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 08:24 AM
Dude, we're only a handful of posts in. There ARE no facts.

I disagree. Alpha let slip that he wants me to make decisions based on what went down months ago in the M2W speakeasy.

FACT: Alpha is not afraid to metagame us.

I know something about Alpha I didn't, at the start of the thread. (Remember, he and I haven't played together yet.)

You guys want to know if Cheeseburger Brickroad is playing this game? No. No he is not.

Besides, I don't even know what passes for a cheeseburger in Sigil.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 08:27 AM
I disagree. Alpha let slip that he wants me to make decisions based on what went down months ago in the M2W speakeasy.

FACT: Alpha is not afraid to metagame us.

No, I'm not afraid to metagame. What's wrong with that? I'll use whatever information I can get to win this.

Furthermore, what do you mean "let slip"? I'm outright saying it: USE THE PREVIOUS GAMES. Metagaming is frowned upon for some reason, and I strongly disagree with said frowning.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 08:28 AM
No, I'm not afraid to metagame. What's wrong with that? I'll use whatever information I can get to win this.

Yes. I know this. It is a fact. Hence why I used it as a counterexample to Byron's declaration, "There are no facts."

What were you saying about not repeating oneself?

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 08:32 AM
Yes. I know this. It is a fact. Hence why I used it as a counterexample to Byron's declaration, "There are no facts."

What were you saying about not repeating oneself?

I was driving home the point that not only I'm going to metagame, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Please, let's try not to argue semantics.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 08:33 AM
I was driving home the point that not only I'm going to metagame, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Please, let's try not to argue semantics.

Now I know two things about you I didn't at the start of the thread. =)

Kylie
08-05-2010, 08:47 AM
Point conceded to Brickroad. I did not find this particularly shocking, I guess, since he did a little meta in M2W, but you were stuck on the other side of Sicily for that one. One victory point* awarded to you.

A sigilburger is two all-baatezu patties, cooked to imperfection and served by Modrons from behind a counter.

*victory points have no monetary value and may not be exchanged for actual victory.

dwolfe
08-05-2010, 08:54 AM
I wanted to see if you've read M2W/speakeasy because of your assumption that I am "at the ass-end of the gene pool". The mafia in M2W wanted to kill me on multiple occasions, because I played well. They killed dtsund night 1 because he was experienced and (presumed by them to be)smart. Later they said that I am what they feared dtsund would become.

Your assumption is based on nothing, which is why I dislike it.

To be fair to both parties, AW, we thought about killing you in M2W, in large part, because we didn't know much anything about you except that you'd talked a big game and had vast experience with the games. By default, that made you relatively threatening.

How your play then and since reflect on your skills is obviously subjective.

...

So, Alpha, I understand the logic of an early random vote to stir up things; but in a three day game, I'd have waited 12+ hours for people to make introductions, it's not a fast-paced game.

So how about introducing yourself?

...

...

So hi everyone, saddle on up to the bar, we got us some work to do today, and we can't do that on an empty stomach. I'm cooking up omelets and bacon for everyone for breakfast, just shout out your order. Any folks (sorry, shivam!) who don't like meat can hit the icebox and breadbox over there, I'm busy here at the grill.

I hear it's nothing but leftover cheeseburgers to eat so far today, and we need a healthy meal.

kaisel
08-05-2010, 08:56 AM
I would just like to go on the record:

In M3 my strategy was to get as many people talking as possible, and people said that was stupid, and eventually killed me for it. (Okay, I was a bad guy, but still! That would have been my strategy even if I weren't.) The team that didn't do enough talking ended up in the dead-book.

In M4 my strategy involved two all beef patties etc., and in the postgame I was chastised for not doing enough to get people talking. And again, the team that didn't do enough talking ended up in the dead-book.


I was innocent in M3, and I thought your strategy was the right one, and M4LD went badly because of the lack of talking. That's why I'm going to be holding off on any accusations, and try to do what Eddie and I attempted in M3: if someone hasn't spoken much by the end of this day, that's who I'm going to accuse. Hopefully everyone else can get behind this, so our threat of lynching the quiet ones has some effect.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 09:00 AM
So hi everyone, saddle on up to the bar, we got us some work to do today, and we can't do that on an empty stomach. I'm cooking up omelets and bacon for everyone for breakfast, just shout out your order. Any folks (sorry, shivam!) who don't like meat can hit the icebox and breadbox over there, I'm busy here at the grill.

I hear it's nothing but leftover cheeseburgers to eat so far today, and we need a healthy meal.

Sand in the tea;
Good enough for me.
Dirt in the bread
Keeps the bashers fed.
Tell me, dwolfe,
What's in the stew?
Don't ask, berk --
It's good enough for you!

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 09:03 AM
So, Alpha, I understand the logic of an early random vote to stir up things; but in a three day game, I'd have waited 12+ hours for people to make introductions, it's not a fast-paced game.

So how about introducing yourself?

No, you don't understand the logic of the randomvote. It's just there to pass the time until something serious pops up.

I'm Alpha Werewolf. Half of you hate me. I hope we can be great friends ^_^

Nodal
08-05-2010, 10:08 AM
Alpha comes off as a right berk, but I'm suspicious of Brickroad's insistence on him, along with a complete repetition of his M3 game-play and a (But I srsly would have done this as citizen too guys!) disclaimer. Hasn't Brickroad never found a Mafia ever? I'm gonna hold off on this Alpha vote.

dwolfe
08-05-2010, 10:33 AM
No, you don't understand the logic of the randomvote. It's just there to pass the time until something serious pops up.

I'm Alpha Werewolf. Half of you hate me. I hope we can be great friends ^_^

I understand the logic why I would do it, not why you do...well...anything, AW.

If everyone shuts up or bandwagons, nothing would ever 'pop up'.

Alpha Werewolf
08-05-2010, 10:54 AM
I understand the logic why I would do it, not why you do...well...anything, AW.

If everyone shuts up or bandwagons, nothing would ever 'pop up'.

Yeah, perfectly true. But have nothing to do at the start, therefore I place a random vote. So far, it seems to be working thoguh - something DID pop up ^_^

Alpha comes off as a right berk
Props for the planescape-themed insult.

namelessentity
08-05-2010, 11:12 AM
Alpha comes off as a right berk, but I'm suspicious of Brickroad's insistence on him, along with a complete repetition of his M3 game-play and a (But I srsly would have done this as citizen too guys!) disclaimer. Hasn't Brickroad never found a Mafia ever?.

He caught Kayma in M3, but you probably won't count that.

I have to say, it is entirely within character for Alpha to throw out a random vote. Many people (including myself) have done this first day just as a joke. It would be idiotic to vote seriously this early and Alpha knows it. I'm not saying whether he is fiendish or not, but what he did was entirely consistent with his previous playing experience

shivam
08-05-2010, 11:15 AM
Wow, you guys went crazy. I'm abstaining this first vote simply because we don't know anything yet. But i'll be damned if there isn't obvious crowd directing going on right now.

McClain
08-05-2010, 12:14 PM
Jesus, what's all the commotion about already? I'm trying to sleep in and we've got Alpha and Brick already hollering at eachother, calling for a lynching when we haven't all properly said hello yet.

Folks, I'm McClain. I'm from out of town, so don't expect me to be able to keep up with all your "berks" and "cutters" right away, but I'll try to pick up the lingo.

The main thing here is I'd rather not end up dead, and if we gotta hang a few eggs to make that omelet, well, I'm game.

Don't be surprised if I don't get any blood on my hands right away, though. I had a dream about space where talking too much earned me a gruesome end. Gonna see what dwolfe has cooking and watch from the bar.

dwolfe
08-05-2010, 12:26 PM
He caught Kayma in M3, but you probably won't count that.

I have to say, it is entirely within character for Alpha to throw out a random vote. Many people (including myself) have done this first day just as a joke. It would be idiotic to vote seriously this early and Alpha knows it. I'm not saying whether he is fiendish or not, but what he did was entirely consistent with his previous playing experience

The first joke kill should always be against dwolfe, though... :)

namelessentity
08-05-2010, 12:35 PM
The first joke kill should always be against dwolfe, though... :)

I wouldn't dare cast suspicion on the wondrous person handing out the bacon

spineshark
08-05-2010, 12:52 PM
The first joke kill should always be against dwolfe, though... :)
Yeah, you know, after that first game, both times you've won votes you were on the evil side. It's an interesting coincidence.

Anyway, the first accusation of the game doesn't have to be an evil move per se, in fact I think it's more likely to be a citizen because they're likely to see themselves as having less to lose. Otherwise, it draws way too much attention for no value. And outside of the random vote I don't think AW is being particularly unreasonable.

Mr. J
08-05-2010, 01:18 PM
Looks like another season of the Brickroad show. I'm not particularly suspicious of alpha at this point. Brickroad started out by saying that he was playing like he did in previous games where he didn't jump on the suspicious people, but the people who were quiet or didn't play along. Umby on the other hand jumped on right after Brickroad and then immediately jumped off. If you're apprehensive about a vote like that just say it upfront.

Brickroad
08-05-2010, 01:26 PM
Looks like another season of the Brickroad show.

If you don't like it, accuse me. I'm sick of being singled out for playing too much, especially considering I just spent an entire game getting yelled at for playing too little.

Kylie
08-05-2010, 01:33 PM
There is an easy way to make the game NOT the Brickroad Show.

Participate.

Seriously. Say stuff. Get involved in the game, and the directions it takes.

Agree with people, disagree with them, whatever. But the more you participate, the less likely it is you'll get hung for silence. And the more likely it is you'll get your points across -- in this case, I guess that Brickroad is loud and suspicious? But at least Bricky is getting things moving, and that is good. As someone who hated on him last game, it's dumb to hate on ANYONE for actually consistently playing the game.

Destil
08-05-2010, 01:34 PM
I'll do a vote count when I'm home from work (and another one at 10 PM). Just a reminder that if you haven't already please go here and vote. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=10425) Poll closes tomorrow morning and then I will revealing information based on the result.

fanboymaster
08-05-2010, 01:46 PM
Now if only there weren't people that didn't have the ingrained habit to not speak without something of obvious value to say. I guess we could all stand to be a bit more transparent though. I'd rather not see a repeat of M3 though, that fiasco was... an unpleasant experience.

namelessentity
08-05-2010, 02:09 PM
Now that we have all settled that Brick is loud and Alpha is strange, I think we can move the conversation along.

I'm wondering how we should use our Aasamir. Their power is used up when a successful save occurs, but then they cannot use the power again until the 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. day. Should they use they try to save someone every night and possibly not be able to when we need it, or should they save their power until someone needs protecting. With the exception of Comb Stranger, I don't think we have ever had an angel make a protection other than confirmations, so maybe just leave it at their will because they might not even pick correctly before we need them

Kylie
08-05-2010, 02:18 PM
That brings up a question -- do we lose the use of the Aasimar's power ONLY if someone is saved, or does it recharge on use? CAN we try and save someone every day?

I think M2E had some FANTASTIC Angel use going on over there, too. And as a M2Westie, I can say that fear of the Angel's power was a real thorn in our side. Even though we never hit a protected target, we stayed away from most of the REALLY good ones, just 'cause. If he only recharges when a hit is prevented, we've still got a hell of a weapon there.

Destil
08-05-2010, 02:36 PM
That brings up a question -- do we lose the use of the Aasimar's power ONLY if someone is saved, or does it recharge on use? CAN we try and save someone every day?

Yes, the Aasimar's power is only expended when protection is used. Protecting someone who isn't attacked does not expend the power.

JohnB
08-05-2010, 02:38 PM
So, introductions, eh? Huh. Guess I've been around Sigil once or twice before. Can't say I've ever been mazed, if that is what's happened to us clueless bastards here. Seems no one is really clear on the matter, but someone or someones knows the dark of it, and we best not be a wasting our time like a bunch of gullys in catching the chant. I'm handy with scalpel, if you be needing it. Seems we all best be watching our health right now...

Mr. J
08-05-2010, 02:39 PM
I think how we use our aasamir depends on what we want to do with an outed power role. If we are going to lynch to confirm then we can attempt to protect everyday to keep the fiends guessing and hopefully catch a break or two. If we want to keep our power roles up after they are outed then we need to be more careful with our aasamir.

I think we should be using the aasamir's power very liberally because it makes the fiends think twice about lynching someone and the more we keep them guessing the better.

Our third option is leaving it up the aasamir. That way no one knows if someone is protected or not. It keeps the fiends guessing and it leaves our options open once a power role comes out.

JohnB
08-05-2010, 02:49 PM
I think part of the discussion over the aasamir use needs to include some way of judging the quality of the power roles we will have access to- obviously, we can't save everybody on a given night, but it also seems clear that there are substantial differences between the inherent value of a dustman vs the sensate or a godsman. Obviously, we don't know what we do (and don't) have access to, but might it be helpful for each of us to rank these power roles in terms of order of importance and come to some kind of group consensus? That way our aasimir can, should they choose to remain anonymous, have some sort of guiding thought process they can refer to.

namelessentity
08-05-2010, 03:03 PM
I think part of the discussion over the aasamir use needs to include some way of judging the quality of the power roles we will have access to- obviously, we can't save everybody on a given night, but it also seems clear that there are substantial differences between the inherent value of a dustman vs the sensate or a godsman. Obviously, we don't know what we do (and don't) have access to, but might it be helpful for each of us to rank these power roles in terms of order of importance and come to some kind of group consensus? That way our aasimir can, should they choose to remain anonymous, have some sort of guiding thought process they can refer to.

While the rating may be useful, without knowing if these people are even in the game makes it hard to apply. If we say the godsman is most valuable and would monopolize an aasimir power, the the sensate would be afraid to come forward without game ending evidence. This could lead to his reveal far too late to be useful (though in my mind sensate is probably the most useful, so the arguement falls there)

spineshark
08-05-2010, 03:03 PM
I'm wondering how we should use our Aasamir. Their power is used up when a successful save occurs, but then they cannot use the power again until the 4th, 7th, 10th, etc. day. Should they use they try to save someone every night and possibly not be able to when we need it, or should they save their power until someone needs protecting. With the exception of Comb Stranger, I don't think we have ever had an angel make a protection other than confirmations, so maybe just leave it at their will because they might not even pick correctly before we need them
It seems to me that almost any save is a good save. The only bad saves would be protecting a Fiend from the Mercykiller (who is almost definitely not going to be acting at random, so I think this is really really unlikely), or giving themselves away just to be targeted and killed by the fiends the next night. In the end even worrying about that too much is kind of irrelevant, since the lack of consecutive saves means anyone found clean through surviving a nightkill attempt is really unlikely to see another day. A one-day VC could still be a big turning point for us, so I think we should still be ready in case that happens.

Also, trying to direct protection too clearly is just going to give the Fiends an advantage, so I think overall the Aasamir is just going to have to decide for themselves what they think is best, both overall and each night, and the rest of us are just going to have to deal with what we get out of it.

Kylie
08-05-2010, 03:15 PM
Plus, these ratings are often wrong.

The oracle (dustman) has had a ridiculous effect in just about every game that's included the role, as they can confirm when we lose OUR power roles. Almost every one have can be a game breaker if we use them properly. And the best thing we can do with the Aasimar is to leave him the hell alone. The more we dictate strategy to our Aasimar, the better the fiends can predict his moves. As previously stated, I suspect his strongest power is the one that makes the fiends afraid to hit ANYONE important, and that's a hell of an advantage for us.

namelessentity
08-05-2010, 03:58 PM
A clarification question: does the dustman only learn night kills role, or the roles of everybody killed. If the former then if we lynch the aasamir or the mercykiller we won't know if we lost that role other than their word. And we would never know if we got rid of a trifling, though I assume that is the point of the trifling

Destil
08-05-2010, 04:19 PM
You break it you bought it, Berk. Role is only revealed:
To fiends on their kills.
To the dustman on any night kill.
To the dooomguard when they inspect a player.
To the guvner as a total.

The only role where the lynch reveal is misleading is the tiefling, just to be clear. The merckiller is still shown to be on the citizen team when lynched.

Javex
08-05-2010, 05:45 PM
Well, ain't this soddin' fantastic! Go away for a few hours to earn some jink, and the whole place is in an uproar!

That being said, I'm always suspicious of people who come out swingin'...which, given the way the conversation has gone, could actually apply to multiple people now.

dwolfe
08-05-2010, 06:14 PM
Now if only there weren't people that didn't have the ingrained habit to not speak without something of obvious value to say. I guess we could all stand to be a bit more transparent though. I'd rather not see a repeat of M3 though, that fiasco was... an unpleasant experience.

Can't happen, as days are fixed at 72 hours....so it'll be a while until I serve lunch. I hope everyone gets some bacon before then.

So wake the hell up and eat, people

OOC: I'm not going to analyze sh*t until the poll resolves and we see what more info we get.

shivam
08-05-2010, 06:18 PM
i didnt realise how big a deal that poll was, but man, that kind of information is gold, especially since otherwise, we're flailing in the dark.

Umby
08-05-2010, 06:38 PM
Err, guys, it's not good to get all angry at each other. Brickroad is the biggest offender here. I think it's kinda obvious that the mafia are just watching the Brickroad Show and waiting for the arrow spinning around the wheel to pick its target. I say we go for a silent person here, and not Alpha. I believe that his bluff at voting for someone randomly did dig up some information, and it was not in vain.

I unvote Alpha, for now.

Again, the more information, the better.

JohnB
08-05-2010, 06:43 PM
Barkeep, you got any of my usual breakfast? That'd be gin.

Nodal
08-05-2010, 06:58 PM
Err, guys, it's not good to get all angry at each other. Brickroad is the biggest offender here. I think it's kinda obvious that the mafia are just watching the Brickroad Show and waiting for the arrow spinning around the wheel to pick its target. I say we go for a silent person here, and not Alpha. I believe that his bluff at voting for someone randomly did dig up some information, and it was not in vain.

I unvote Alpha, for now.

Again, the more information, the better.

What the hell? You're the person who did the things you're saying the mafia would do!

Umby
08-05-2010, 07:02 PM
Well, I mean, I guess I was wrong about voting Alpha. My real point is is that Brickroad has a tendency to get very riled up on one or two people and basically activity-spam them to death (no offense, Brickroad). Seeing this happen almost flawlessly the first day made me think that my vote probably was wrong, thus, I took it back.

Paul le Fou
08-05-2010, 07:15 PM
Hey you borks, how about we rustle up some of these evil friends! I hope the assmore protects me from the teflon!

I have no idea what you people are talking about, for what it's worth.

We never do have a lot to go on in the first day, especially the first day of the first day, but I wouldn't be opposed to stringing up Alpha or Brickroad, if for no other reason than conversation flow control. Remember Thing - the game where the Things participated and the Clean didn't, the Things steamrolled. The game where the citizens stayed diligent and did their homework, they won. As much as possible (and I say this from the midst of a very busy time, for which I apologize in advance) we need to keep active and keep talking, like Byron said. We can't let anyone take over the reigns of the conversation.

Not voting yet. Gonna keep my eyes open for a bit.

Nodal
08-05-2010, 07:17 PM
Hey you borks, how about we rustle up some of these evil friends! I hope the assmore protects me from the teflon!

I vote to sca-

Destil
08-05-2010, 08:39 PM
Current Votes

shivam - 0
Alpha Werewolf
(assuming Unvote is a retraction?)

Alpha Werewolf - 2
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby

Mr. J
08-05-2010, 08:43 PM
I'd rather not lynch someone for being too loud just because that sets a horrible precedent that the fiends can manipulate. If anything, Brick's loudness is good because it pushes people into participating. As he said himself, when people don't communicate everyone (that matters) loses.

McClain
08-05-2010, 09:04 PM
I vote to sca-

It'll probably be several game days before I remember A: it's not a scan and B: Paul isn't in charge.

Since the first day scan lynch is gong to be a shot in the dark, I'm tempted to vote for Paul to alleviate any confusion.

dwolfe
08-05-2010, 09:44 PM
Barkeep, you got any of my usual breakfast? That'd be gin.

*slides a filthy rag across a filthy, filthy bar*

I got gin a'plenty for those caught in the maze wit me, and you canna certainly run a tab till we get outta here, eh? These bottles ain't buyin' themselves, are they?

I got most anything you want for meals. Dinner tonight, I hear, might be long pig, same as every night till we get outta this maze. Gotta do something wit' the locals, eh? I got chicken and vegen options at dinner, if'in that don't suits ya. The pigs gotta eat, too, y'know?

dtsund
08-05-2010, 10:46 PM
Man, I don't have anything to add to any of this, except:

Why is it that a few of you berks are so willing to fall in behind Brick "I've Never Ever Caught A Mafia" Road? You guys barmy?

Also: Does the Aasimar protect from any possible Succubus influence? Just want to get the rules clarified.

Destil
08-05-2010, 11:12 PM
Current Votes

shivam - 0
Alpha Werewolf
(assuming Unvote is a retraction?)

Alpha Werewolf - 2
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby

Also: Does the Aasimar protect from any possible Succubus influence? Just want to get the rules clarified.No, nor does the Cipher's protective ability. Both specifically prevent death.

Alpha Werewolf
08-06-2010, 12:27 AM
The Aasimr will do as he pleases. Dictating strategy to the doctor should only be done in an emergency.

As for "first lynch is a shot in the dark", allow me to present a candidate.

I only pause to accuse/bandwagon on Alpha given that history shows exactly how many bandwagon lynches against a colossally leatherheaded dolt who turns up clueless? And, really, what could be more dense than accusing six seconds into this mess before half the people have piped up? We don't really know what the chant is, yet. To be clear, I'm not defending Alpha at all. I'm just pointing out that stupid play is usually the hallmark of the clueless, not the fiendish.

I've said this before, but look at his insistence that he isn't defending me. That's not a town mindset! Town shouldn't care about how what they say looks like. Mafia, however, very much do.

Unless I find a better candidate, I will vote JohnB.

Mr. J
08-06-2010, 12:41 AM
People targeted you for being too jumpy, Alpha. I'm beginning to think that they aren't too far off. JohnB has 2 posts that matter to his name, the one defending you and one about power roles. His second post isn't very good, but I don't see that as enough to send him to destil's house.

Kylie
08-06-2010, 01:17 AM
Dictating strategy to the doctor is a good way to get him manipulated by the fiends. Aasimar are capable of acting on their own. If we get into an emergency, chances are he'll be better off without the help of the people that got us INTO that emergency.

And in case you can't read between lines, Alpha, it looks to me like JohnB was saying that he's not defending you, not because he cares what people think, but because by appearing to defend you he's sticking his neck out for you EVEN THOUGH he's not convinced you're one of the good guys. He is taking a risk on your behalf to clear the air.

And aside from that, there's plenty of reasons for the good guys to care what the town thinks, if for no better reason than "If you string me up, then we are one day closer to game over". To say nothing of outing power roles that WE CANNOT PROTECT.

Chill a bit. We have to kill SOMEONE, but we still have two days, and we've got a couple of folks that still haven't even said ANYTHING.

Alpha Werewolf
08-06-2010, 01:28 AM
People targeted you for being too jumpy, Alpha. I'm beginning to think that they aren't too far off. JohnB has 2 posts that matter to his name, the one defending you and one about power roles. His second post isn't very good, but I don't see that as enough to send him to destil's house.

Correct, and it wouldn't be enough for a vote on any other day. But right now, you guys are discussing strategy that would be harmful to us, and I don't want to end the day with a nolynch, as that's the worst possible outcome.

So, I vote for the most suspicious person so far.

Mr. J
08-06-2010, 02:26 AM
We have quite a bit of time left. There's no need to rush through the day.

Putting in a vote to lynch is progressing quite a bit, especially when about 1/3 of the people are here. I think we need to see what everyone else has to say first.

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 03:42 AM
I think it's kinda obvious that the mafia are just watching the Brickroad Show and waiting for the arrow spinning around the wheel to pick its target.

Be careful Umby. Last time people made the game all about me, they all lost and I won. Then when I specifically tried to make the game not about me, they made it about me anyway and they all lost again (and dragged me down with them).

It's abundantly clear that whatever The Brickroad Show is, I have no control over regulating it. The extent to which I dominate the game, either by posting arguments or cheeseburgers, is completely in the minds of the other players. The more everyone stands up to be heard, the fewer tirades I have to go out on.

@Byron: You and I are agreeing way too much. I must admit this scares the hell out of me.

Alpha Werewolf
08-06-2010, 04:47 AM
We have quite a bit of time left. There's no need to rush through the day.

Putting in a vote to lynch is progressing quite a bit, especially when about 1/3 of the people are here. I think we need to see what everyone else has to say first.

Excuse me for not wanting to waste the little time we do have.

72 hours is nothing, if you ask me. I don't want to end this day with a nolynch.

JohnB
08-06-2010, 06:42 AM
This is, what, the third time now you've brought up my name in the same sentence as those fiends? There are only two things I'm certain of right now: one, The Lady paid us all sitting here some special attention last night, and two, I ain't part of the party responsible for it. And, cutter, I am of the mindset that everyone in this here place should care quite a great deal about what they say, and how they say it. You're really giving me the yawn, friend.

Kylie
08-06-2010, 09:15 AM
We can't end with a nolynch, Alpha. At the moment, it appears we're lynching you. You might have to either start selling yourself better, or make a more persuasive case against SOMEONE.

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 09:35 AM
Yet another reason to lynch Alpha: he hasn't read the rules.

Alpha Werewolf
08-06-2010, 10:14 AM
Ah, that's right - I haven't noticed the line saying a player must be lynched. Regardless, I do believe that A. I'm more useful to the town alive than dead and B. we don't have a better candidate than JohnB at the moment.

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 10:21 AM
Regardless, I do believe that A. I'm more useful to the town alive than dead

Why?

and B. we don't have a better candidate than JohnB at the moment.

Sure we do.

Alpha Werewolf
08-06-2010, 10:27 AM
Why?
I'm active. I question people instead of placing bandwagon votes. I do my own analysis when a case is brought up.

In short, I do everything that you SHOULD do if you want to win.

Kylie
08-06-2010, 10:30 AM
I wonder what Kayma and Martinet think of your assertion.

Kayma
08-06-2010, 10:34 AM
I wonder what Kayma and Martinet think of your assertion.

I think it's right in the name, myself. Alpha Werewolf. That's evil, man.

I like the idea of an AW lynch well enough, but I'm going to scour the thread a bit more before I vote.

In the meantime, please peruse the Cheese and Burger society. (http://www.cheeseandburger.com/)

kaisel
08-06-2010, 10:42 AM
Right now I have to say that I'm leaning toward Martinet, granted, that's only if s/he doesn't post. I'd rather get rid of the dead weight now, rather than have a new player join in, and run into that mess (should we lynch the new guy, so he only gets to play one day, give him a grace period, etc). We're still early, hence no formal accusation for the moment.

RE: Brickroad

This is more responding to Umby's comment than anything else, but about the only thing I really trust Brickroad on is making a decent numbers strategy. He perfected the voting bloc/special role strategies, and if he comes up with something here, I'll probably listen. Otherwise I'll use common sense. The real lesson from the Brickroad Show is that letting one person run the game ends poorly, that was the other thing from M3: a lot of people let Nich take charge, who wasn't innocent. The more voices we have talking, the less chance of that happening.

namelessentity
08-06-2010, 10:43 AM
I'm active. I question people instead of placing bandwagon votes. I do my own analysis when a case is brought up.

In short, I do everything that you SHOULD do if you want to win.

But, at the moment, you are doing analysis of little data and using it to jump on accusations. This would make you a liability later if such little knowledge can convince you. And so early in the game we can't claim you are better than any other player.

I do plan to vote for the weakest player today, and the amount you are talking does put you above the lowest rung. But, if everybody else chimes in with reasonable discussion you may very well be my vote

McClain
08-06-2010, 11:04 AM
Right now I have to say that I'm leaning toward Martinet, granted, that's only if s/he doesn't post. I'd rather get rid of the dead weight now, rather than have a new player join in, and run into that mess (should we lynch the new guy, so he only gets to play one day, give him a grace period, etc). We're still early, hence no formal accusation for the moment.

Dead weight will turn dead on its own, per the rules. If someone doesn't post at all, they are going to be removed. If they do post and it's worthless, well that's something to look at.

JohnB and I have a bit of a history of snipping at each other, mostly due to our baseball teams, but even I don't see anything suspicious about him yet. It's day one, so I can't really tell if Alpha is twisting in the wind or just always like this.

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 11:14 AM
Dead weight will turn dead on its own, per the rules. If someone doesn't post at all, they are going to be removed.

All the more reason we should lynch them. If we lynch some clueless sod on the same day the dead weight gets culled, we've lost two instead of one.

Kylie
08-06-2010, 11:30 AM
You're only partially right, McClain - dead weight can post once a day with stuff like "man i dunno WHOSE finds anymore" and not be eliminated, and certain people have escaped detection with reasonable success using this method -- Mafia and Town Power Role AND actual dead weight have all ensured survival.

I have a t-shirt from the Cheese and Burger Society. Everyone from Lower Deck has been inducted.

Alpha Werewolf
08-06-2010, 12:35 PM
To clarify, I am only voting for JohnB because nobody else posted anything particularly fiendish. His comment was un-townish, and while it wouldn't be enough for a vote if we had more information, right now it's enough.

Destil
08-06-2010, 02:26 PM
There are 5 total fiends with [retracted] having special roles.

There are 14 total citizens, with a sensate, a mercykiller, an aasimar, and [retracted] other roles.

Current Votes

shivam - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Alpha Werewolf - 2
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby

JohnB - 1
Alpha Werewolf

Kylie
08-06-2010, 02:47 PM
Now the theory begins.

5 is the magic number.

We can win in 5 days, 4 with a successful mercykiller, 3 with a mercykiller and a cypher, if we HAVE a cypher, if we never miss. We can miss once and still make four, if our mercykiller's aim is good tonight and on day 4. Numbers increase by one if they have a succubus.

In five days, if we haven't hit any fiends, and we make no successful aasimar saves, we lose. Faster if our mercykiller is trigger happy, faster still if our cypher is trigger happy too. If we have a cypher. If we have a godsman, and don't lynch him, that buys us an extra day. If they have a succubus then we only have four days.

If we have a cypher, and they use the sacrifice ability, it buys us no time at all.

Our game definitely revolves around the Aasimar, this time, rather than the sensate, since we can't steamroll them with knowledge.

namelessentity
08-06-2010, 02:51 PM
I think for the sake of number theory we should assume they have a succubus and that they will use it tonight. As Brick stated, and others agreed, the best time to use the power would be early so as to limit the amount people could look for changes in behavior, so it is reasonable to assume they would use the power early.

namelessentity
08-06-2010, 02:52 PM
Brick said this back in M3, not in this round. Sorry, thought I said that

kaisel
08-06-2010, 03:13 PM
I think for the sake of number theory we should assume they have a succubus and that they will use it tonight. As Brick stated, and others agreed, the best time to use the power would be early so as to limit the amount people could look for changes in behavior, so it is reasonable to assume they would use the power early.

Definitely, worst case scenario is what we really need to look at. That's what killed us in M3, we thought we had more days, when we really didn't. If Byron's analysis is right, then we can at least plan a small strategy around when the Sensate should come out. Dunno if it's worth it, but if we have some confirmed innocents, then it narrows down our suspect pool. The only problem I can see is verifying the Sensate, which is... contentious, to say the least, based on M3.

Kylie
08-06-2010, 03:29 PM
I refuse to tell our sensate how to do his job, and I absolutely refuse to lynch him to find out. Dude comes forward with a couple of fiends we can kill-test, and that's good enough for me. He lies, we let the mercykiller do that work. There's no use wasting valuable hangings on someone we KNOW is a liar, if we have the resources to headshot him.

Planning out a sensate strategy is a bad idea. If you don't trust him to do his job, then the damage is already done.

McClain
08-06-2010, 03:34 PM
Gonna show my ignorance, but how exactly is the sensate going to tell us anything? Doesn't that put his head on the chopping block?

Nodal
08-06-2010, 03:36 PM
Gonna show my ignorance, but how exactly is the sensate going to tell us anything? Doesn't that put his head on the chopping block?

That's what the angel is for. And he usually stores up a few names first before he comes out with them.

kaisel
08-06-2010, 03:44 PM
I refuse to tell our sensate how to do his job, and I absolutely refuse to lynch him to find out. Dude comes forward with a couple of fiends we can kill-test, and that's good enough for me. He lies, we let the mercykiller do that work. There's no use wasting valuable hangings on someone we KNOW is a liar, if we have the resources to headshot him.

Planning out a sensate strategy is a bad idea. If you don't trust him to do his job, then the damage is already done.

My main worry is if he hits only innocents, y'know? That's still information that could be useful, especially after that five day mark, if we haven't hit anybody. I guess there's a few ifs in there, so it's probably not worth debating, but I dunno, not planning around our special role in M3 contributed to getting us killed (or, well, planning potentially badly with that whole autolynch thing). Granted, I don't want to start that argument up again since we'll just argue in circles, and as you pointed out, the Mercykiller solves our problem there.

I know in M2E when I was an angel (and err, died on the first day) figuring out how to act, and what my strategy was going to be was kinda nerve-wracking, and were I the Sensate, I wouldn't mind at least a few ideas slung about. I do agree that we shouldn't commit to anything, but having ideas floating around could be quite helpful for the Sensate. Though, I'm not exactly adamant about all this, I'm just hoping for us to discuss something, since it'll also get people talking, which helps in two ways: First, the Fiends haven't had a chance to coordinate, so they're at their weakest and most exposed if we get 'em talking, second, if there's a Succubus, we've at least started an audit trail.

McClain
08-06-2010, 03:48 PM
That's what the angel is for. And he usually stores up a few names first before he comes out with them.

Ah, okay. So sensate gets info (assuming we don't kill him or all his targets by accident), shows his cards and prays for protection (assuming the angel is still around) and then we go hunting.

There's a lot of "ifs" in that plan, but I guess that's how it goes with a role-heavy situation.

(have I made it clear exactly how clueless I am?)

Kylie
08-06-2010, 03:49 PM
It hasn't in the past, because in previous games angels could protect with impunity. But even if the sensate comes forward in a blaze of glory and dies, he can help us do two things.

a) He can help us bloc-build, which is not as strong in this game as it was in the first two mafia games, but it still has some strengths, and

b) If he can name fiends for sure, then it's a tradeoff. Sometimes that's a good tradeoff for the good guys, sometimes it's not. That is his decision to make. But at least at the moment, our numbers are favorable for that sort of trade.

namelessentity
08-06-2010, 04:13 PM
I don't want to tell the sensate how to do his job, but I would like to give a tip which he can accept or ignore. I suggest looking at the people who don't get much attention. We will be lynching the high profile characters to be sure, but there are those others that tend to slide into the cracks, popping in to say something and quickly forgotten. Doing this, hopefully, prevents people from being able to hide from you and limits overlap between us and you. One of the worst things that could happen is you find someone innocent and we go ahead and lynch him anyway because you can't tell us without revealing yourself.

Again, just a suggestion

Mr. J
08-06-2010, 04:47 PM
Everyone remember that we can kind of lean on the cipher to protect also. We don't know if we have one, but neither do the fiends and that could be very strong. We can either use it as a second night of protection, or we can use it as a back-up for that first night.

I would advise against instructing the sensate because 1. it gives the fiends an opening to exploit and 2. because if the sensate is actively pursuing what we are pursuing they are liable to end up with a bunch of dead people by the time they reveal. Let's leave it up to the respective power roles to choose how they use their powers.

Javex
08-06-2010, 04:53 PM
I suggest looking at the people who don't get much attention. We will be lynching the high profile characters to be sure, but there are those others that tend to slide into the cracks, popping in to say something and quickly forgotten.

Well then, now I'm going to have to spend all my time dealin' with you all, eh? Small price to pay for keepin' my neck the size it is, I suppose.

I'm active. I question people instead of placing bandwagon votes. I do my own analysis when a case is brought up.


If I get this right, you're suggesting we keep you around, because you do the stuff we'd do without you anyway?

Iiiiinteresting....

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 05:27 PM
As Brick stated, and others agreed, the best time to use the power would be early so as to limit the amount people could look for changes in behavior, so it is reasonable to assume they would use the power early.

Yet another reason it's so important for EVERYONE ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE to post a LOT on this first day.

spineshark
08-06-2010, 05:37 PM
Now the theory begins.

5 is the magic number.

We can win in 5 days, 4 with a successful mercykiller, 3 with a mercykiller and a cypher, if we HAVE a cypher, if we never miss. We can miss once and still make four, if our mercykiller's aim is good tonight and on day 4.

Our game definitely revolves around the Aasimar, this time, rather than the sensate, since we can't steamroll them with knowledge.
We also can't steamroll them with once-every-three-day saves.

Also "if we never miss" hahahahahaha. That doesn't sound like something to assume at all.

spineshark
08-06-2010, 05:41 PM
I don't want to tell the sensate how to do his job, but I would like to give a tip which he can accept or ignore. I suggest looking at the people who don't get much attention. We will be lynching the high profile characters to be sure, but there are those others that tend to slide into the cracks, popping in to say something and quickly forgotten. Doing this, hopefully, prevents people from being able to hide from you and limits overlap between us and you. One of the worst things that could happen is you find someone innocent and we go ahead and lynch him anyway because you can't tell us without revealing yourself.

Again, just a suggestion
I'm pretty sure we'll be lynching the people who get the most votes each day. Just a hunch.

Some people want to kill high-profile people so they know they're not Fiends running the show, others want to kill the quiet ones so we know they aren't sliding out of view, and worst case we lose a clueless who isn't contributing anyway. I'm not sure which side is going to win votes first! But if it doesn't work I imagine the other way will get at least a couple chances, too.

Paul le Fou
08-06-2010, 06:45 PM
Now the theory begins.

5 is the magic number.

We can win in 5 days, 4 with a successful mercykiller, 3 with a mercykiller and a cypher, if we HAVE a cypher, if we never miss. We can miss once and still make four, if our mercykiller's aim is good tonight and on day 4. Numbers increase by one if they have a succubus.

In five days, if we haven't hit any fiends, and we make no successful aasimar saves, we lose. Faster if our mercykiller is trigger happy, faster still if our cypher is trigger happy too. If we have a cypher. If we have a godsman, and don't lynch him, that buys us an extra day. If they have a succubus then we only have four days.

If we have a cypher, and they use the sacrifice ability, it buys us no time at all.

Our game definitely revolves around the Aasimar, this time, rather than the sensate, since we can't steamroll them with knowledge.

Ugh. This is why I didn't want to know how many mafia there were. All this information and none of it is useful to us. How will our decisions on whom to investigate and lynch change knowing how many days left we have?

That's what the angel is for. And he usually stores up a few names first before he comes out with them.

Remember that the assmore has limited use. If we make a save, we're in the open for 3 days. And if Byron's right that our time limit is only a few over 3 days, that means that if we make one save, there's a damn good chance it's the only one. I'm not sure how the limits it has in this game (which I supported ever since the M3 vote, so I'm not complaining per se) make it so that it's somehow the key to our strategy. It's not powerful enough to build a lynchpin role around. Wasn't that the point of limiting the power roles in the first place?



I may or may not be around later on the day - I should be, so I'll have an opportunity to change if things turn around - but just in case, I'm going to put in a vote for now.

I vote for Alpha Werewolf.

It is because he smells funny.

fanboymaster
08-06-2010, 06:45 PM
Are we really trying to argue that we should only lynch one type of player? Honestly, we shouldn't be committing to a particular strategy because it makes it easy for fiends to blend in with those that aren't the ones we are lynching. That and there's no way we'll be organized enough to consistently go after one type of player, especially if it misses a couple of times. I doubt anyone is seriously arguing this, but sometimes it sounds like it.

shivam
08-06-2010, 07:05 PM
The cipher's a really bizarre role. I don't envy the person who has those choices to make.

Javex
08-06-2010, 07:10 PM
I'm just waitin' for Martinet to show at this point. If s/he doesn't, then (to my way of thinkin') I've got no choice but to call for that one to be lynched. We're going to lose someone our first night - no need in doublin' our losses without cause.

Nodal
08-06-2010, 07:16 PM
I have a question. If someone is targeted by the fiends but is saved by any of the powers which can do this, do we find out what saved them?

Destil
08-06-2010, 07:31 PM
I have a question. If someone is targeted by the fiends but is saved by any of the powers which can do this, do we find out what saved them?

Yes, you learn if they're saved by the aasimar or the cipher.

EDIT: I didn't address it in the rules, but I'm making the ruling right now that you also learn what targeted them (fiend, cipher or mercykiller).

With the cipher protection will be announced and you'll find exactly one person dead that morning. I figure you can put two and two together, so if it happens I'll most likely write up the nights events without hiding the fact.

The cipher's a really bizarre role. I don't envy the person who has those choices to make.You're thinking too much, berk. A member of the Transcendent Order trains their body and mind to the point where action can flow freely without needless internal deliberation. When the time comes they'll just act. At least, that's what a cipher would tell you. Reason other folks call 'em cipher: they cant make heads or tails of what they're blathering about.

Nodal
08-06-2010, 07:32 PM
So what about Godsmen?

Destil
08-06-2010, 07:35 PM
So what about Godsmen?

I announce their return in the thread the morning they come back. And their new race... here's hoping the dice come up badger!

Kylie
08-06-2010, 07:51 PM
Our decisions to lynch might not change through game theory, but the decisions the mercykiller, cipher and aasimar make might be. They become more valuable every time we extend the game by a day. And even if it doesn't help us now, it gives us a general sort of time frame, and it's getting people talking, which I think is a pretty good goal.

I think our strategy revolves around the Aasimar because he or she has the power to stop someone dying more than once. There are only two ways we can extend our time limits.

We kill fiends, or we block their kills. The first can be accomplished by mercykiller or town hanging, but only the Aasimar can stop a kill. Well, I mean, cipher, also, but I assume that if the cipher tries to save and whiffs then he or she doesn't get another chance. If we even have a cipher. The Aasimar brings something to our active strategy that nobody else can. This is to say nothing of our intelligence strategy - sensate, guvner, dustman - which is best left up to those folks.

@spineshark -- I guess what I meant was "we can't steamroll them". I still think the Aasimar's key to buying us an extra day or two, both by deterring fiends from prime targets and by stopping hits. And I know in M3, we'd have KILLED for an extra day or two.

dtsund
08-06-2010, 07:52 PM
I don't want to tell the sensate how to do his job, but I would like to give a tip which he can accept or ignore. I suggest looking at the people who don't get much attention. We will be lynching the high profile characters to be sure, but there are those others that tend to slide into the cracks, popping in to say something and quickly forgotten. Doing this, hopefully, prevents people from being able to hide from you and limits overlap between us and you. One of the worst things that could happen is you find someone innocent and we go ahead and lynch him anyway because you can't tell us without revealing yourself.

Again, just a suggestion

Hm. If namelessentity is found to be a vrock or something, I'd look among the more active players to find the other fiends. It's possible he's giving this advice in bad faith.

I know Martinet, so I'll see if I can get that cutter to rattle his bone box. If I can't, he'll have my vote; otherwise, I'll probably vote for nameless for the dead-book. Poor sod's as likely to be innocent as the rest of us, but marking him might at least give us a little more to go on.

I don't get the accusation of AW. Nothing he's done has seemed suspicious to me; even if the reasoning is that he's the person we'd miss least, there are people who haven't posted yet. Heck, I've only posted twice; surely I'd be missed less?

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 07:59 PM
I'm all for switching my vote to Martinet. I don't even know what a Martinet is.

Are we really trying to argue that we should only lynch one type of player?

Who is arguing this? What, specifically, has been said that would give you this impression?

shivam
08-06-2010, 07:59 PM
The problem with day one is that it's a complete shot in the dark. What information do you have that anyone is suspicious, aside from random metagamey nonsense?

The real day 1 target is who irritates the most people first. The question we should be asking is what information do we hope to gain from our first lynch? And who is the first target for the eternal Mercy?

dtsund
08-06-2010, 08:07 PM
Our decisions to lynch might not change through game theory, but the decisions the mercykiller, cipher and aasimar make might be. They become more valuable every time we extend the game by a day. And even if it doesn't help us now, it gives us a general sort of time frame, and it's getting people talking, which I think is a pretty good goal.

I think our strategy revolves around the Aasimar because he or she has the power to stop someone dying more than once. There are only two ways we can extend our time limits.

We kill fiends, or we block their kills. The first can be accomplished by mercykiller or town hanging, but only the Aasimar can stop a kill. Well, I mean, cipher, also, but I assume that if the cipher tries to save and whiffs then he or she doesn't get another chance. If we even have a cipher. The Aasimar brings something to our active strategy that nobody else can. This is to say nothing of our intelligence strategy - sensate, guvner, dustman - which is best left up to those folks.

@spineshark -- I guess what I meant was "we can't steamroll them". I still think the Aasimar's key to buying us an extra day or two, both by deterring fiends from prime targets and by stopping hits. And I know in M3, we'd have KILLED for an extra day or two.

Regarding the Aasimar, I think we can't plan in any more detail than 'please save our Sensate after he comes forward'. Any saves on top of that should be considered a bonus; we can't really put it at the center of any strategies.

Likewise, I'd leave our Sensate to his own devices and trust him to inspect who he wants to. He knows his own suspicions best. Of course, if Brickroad's the Sensate, I then can't do anything but hope he doesn't repeat his M1 performance. It would be pretty hilarious, though.

Our other roles, though... we can try to decide what the best way to use them would be. Guvner, in particular, if we have one. My preference for him would be for him to either come forward on Day 3 and tell us if we have a Tiefling and/or Succubus, or Day 4 and tell us what the fiendish power roles are. I'd prefer the former, because Day 4 seems kind of late to get that information (we want to know if we're up against a Tiefling so we can know how paranoid we need to be, and we want to know if there's a Succubus so we know how many fiends there effectively are).

Brickroad
08-06-2010, 08:14 PM
Guvner, in particular, if we have one.

I agree on these points. Knowing exactly how many days we have left under ideal conditions doesn't really help us, but knowing if there's a tiefling or succubus in the game could turn out to be crucial.

There's the possibility that the fiends might try to fake a guvner, but I think it'd be stupid for them to try.

(You hear me, fiends? You are stupid. STUPID. And your face is stupid, too.)

fanboymaster
08-06-2010, 08:30 PM
... I doubt anyone is seriously arguing this, but sometimes it sounds like it.

I don't want to tell the sensate how to do his job, but I would like to give a tip which he can accept or ignore. I suggest looking at the people who don't get much attention. We will be lynching the high profile characters to be sure, but there are those others that tend to slide into the cracks, popping in to say something and quickly forgotten. Doing this, hopefully, prevents people from being able to hide from you and limits overlap between us and you. One of the worst things that could happen is you find someone innocent and we go ahead and lynch him anyway because you can't tell us without revealing yourself.

Again, just a suggestion

I'm all for switching my vote to Martinet. I don't even know what a Martinet is.

Who is arguing this? What, specifically, has been said that would give you this impression?

if someone hasn't spoken much by the end of this day, that's who I'm going to accuse. Hopefully everyone else can get behind this, so our threat of lynching the quiet ones has some effect.

Like I said, it isn't exactly an explicit call for it, but I'd argue that making it clear what sorts we're voting for is a disadvantage. Even mutually contradictory statements make it clear that avoiding the extreme ends of the posting side is the best thing a fiend can do (yeah yeah, easier said than done). Still, I'm just rattling my bone-box, getting used to this whole "speak your mind" idea.

namelessentity
08-06-2010, 08:40 PM
Like I said, it isn't exactly an explicit call for it, but I'd argue that making it clear what sorts we're voting for is a disadvantage. Even mutually contradictory statements make it clear that avoiding the extreme ends of the posting side is the best thing a fiend can do (yeah yeah, easier said than done). Still, I'm just rattling my bone-box, getting used to this whole "speak your mind" idea.

I figured that was directed around me. I'm not dictating that that should be our strategy, it is just that in the past that is what we've done. Everybody says "lynch the quiet ones" and then looks at Brick or Merus or the such.

fanboymaster
08-06-2010, 08:50 PM
I didn't particularly mean to direct it at you. It was mostly just me trying to recall the mindset of that post and you and kaisel had the two posts that seemed like they'd brought it about.

Mr. J
08-06-2010, 08:59 PM
The cipher is a great role because it lets us get away with more than we should because of the time limits. If we need that extra kill we can us them as a psuedo mercykiller. If we need another protection for a night we can use them as a psuedo aasamir too. The problem is we don't know if he have one, but neither do the fiends.

Destil
08-06-2010, 10:40 PM
Throwing the vote summary up a little early tonight as just now leaving work and may not be home before 10.

Current Votes
shivam - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Alpha Werewolf - 3
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby
Paul le Fou

JohnB - 1
Alpha Werewolf[/QUOTE]

Umby
08-06-2010, 11:32 PM
I feel bad that I'm not posting that much, but in all honesty, I have no information to work off of. Only thing that caught my eye right now is that Alpha Werewolf is acting very negatively, and that Paul Le Fou voted for him. It's some thing to keep in mind, anyway.

If there's an option to not lynch, then I wouldn't lynch Martinet for not being active. There's more of a chance he's just a citizen than a fiend, and we'd be losing someone that Destil probably would kill off anyway for inactivity.

Right now, I'm only looking at Alpha Werewolf, but really to me he's probably just playing a weird citizen rather than a fiend. No fiend would play such an active and obvious game.

Right...? *COUGH HACK BRICKROAD*

Mr. J
08-06-2010, 11:47 PM
The reason to lynch the people who aren't active is that any other target has a very high chance of being clueless resulting in 3 (afk + lynch +fiend kill) total dead instead of just 2 (afk + fiend kill). If we had more information to go off of then it may be a good idea to go for someone else, but right now we don't have that luxury.

Martinet
08-06-2010, 11:58 PM
Salutations all,

Man, miss a few hours and suddenly everyone's calling for your head.

I'm not exactly a jive talking hepcat, but I'll try to keep pace with your maelstrom of words.

I hope to make up for any obvious shortcomings with pep and charisma!

Martinet
08-07-2010, 12:03 AM
Also, for the enquiring minds among us, from Merriam-Webster:

martinet \mar-tuh-NET\ noun
1 : a strict disciplinarian
2 : a person who stresses a rigid adherence to the details of forms and methods

Example Sentence:
Spencer complained that his office manager was a power-hungry martinet who compelled him to follow ridiculous rules.

(It's also the surname of Mario's voice actor.)

Javex
08-07-2010, 12:07 AM
Well, he's not clueless at all! He knows what a dictionary is!

LYNCH HIM!!!!!

Mr. J
08-07-2010, 12:53 AM
Salutations all,

Man, miss a few hours and suddenly everyone's calling for your head.

I'm not exactly a jive talking hepcat, but I'll try to keep pace with your maelstrom of words.

I hope to make up for any obvious shortcomings with pep and charisma!

better get on all of it then. People here don't have much tolerance for warm bodies.

Brickroad
08-07-2010, 06:12 AM
Two posts, and nothing said.

Try again.

McClain
08-07-2010, 10:46 AM
Two posts, and nothing said.

Try again.

Man, Brick is tough on the newbies.

So when does the clock run out? Tonight? Anyone still unaccounted for? I feel like we need a better plan than "Alpha looks funny."

namelessentity
08-07-2010, 11:01 AM
Yes tonight is when we finally go to night, and yes we need a better plan. Most of this day has been "get to know me" comments and then some discussion about power roles and Alpha. If we are voting for the weakest, we should start looking at who didn't participate in either discussion. If we think we caught somebody we should probably look at the Alpha talks. If he is guilty there should be something there, but if he isn't then I would imagine at least one fiend would be trying to get the bandwagon started

Umby
08-07-2010, 11:03 AM
Javex 5
fanboymaster 5
spineshark 4
dtsund 3
Martinet 2
Paul le Fou 2


Let's start here.

shivam
08-07-2010, 11:17 AM
but of those, who has said anything of substance, or tried to direct the conversation?

spineshark
08-07-2010, 11:18 AM
let me just post a bunch of stupid one-liners to get off that list

I notice Brick isn't pulling his "let's not kill the new players right away" from M2 and 3. That's probably because it was dumb, or maybe because there are only a couple anyway, but whatever the reason, it's pretty noticeable to me.

I accuse Martinet right now, until he does anything that looks like anything.

Alpha Werewolf
08-07-2010, 11:25 AM
Unvote, Vote Martinet

Alright, now I have a good reason to vote.

As brickroad said, Martinet said nothng in these two posts. That's pretty much active lurking - posting just enough to appear active, so as to get off the hook. I'd know - I've played that way as a Serial Killer, and quite successfully.

I'm going to have very limited computer time this week.

Alpha Werewolf
08-07-2010, 11:26 AM
EBWOP: Damnit spine don't ninja me.

Umby
08-07-2010, 11:34 AM
I swear, if this guy comes out innocent, there will be hell to pay. I'm not voting for him.

Brickroad
08-07-2010, 11:52 AM
Let's start here.

I agree.

I notice Brick isn't pulling his "let's not kill the new players right away" from M2 and 3. That's probably because it was dumb, or maybe because there are only a couple anyway, but whatever the reason, it's pretty noticeable to me.

Two reasons: there are too few newbies for it to really matter (just Javex, JohnB and Martinet), and even if I were to propose it nobody would go along with it anyway. Why waste my breath?

but of those, who has said anything of substance, or tried to direct the conversation?

The veterans on the quiet list are fanboymaster, spineshark, dtsund, Kayma and Paul. For good or ill I think they've proven their mettle in past games, so it would be a bit jumpy to eliminate them so early. (I had my doubts about fanboymaster after playing with him in M3, but he promptly answered a direct question posed to him, so I'm willing to not kill him.)

That leaves Javex and Martinet. Javex, at the very least, has told us what types of players he's suspicious of (#65) (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=823552&postcount=65), which isn't much but at least is a nonzero amount of information.

Martinet, on the other hand, has done absolutely nothing, and has no previous games with which to judge his silence.

I temporarily un-accuse Alpha Werewolf.

I accuse Martinet.

Sorry newbie. Better luck next round.

spineshark
08-07-2010, 11:58 AM
I swear, if this guy comes out innocent, there will be hell to pay. I'm not voting for him.
If you think we have a half-decent (third-decent, even, it's the first day so I'm not picky) case against anybody else I'll absolutely rethink it. I can also reconsider if he tries to do anything worthwhile himself. If nothing else, I'm not seeing how it's good to reward people for doing nothing. That will get us all killed.

But on top of that, you just directed everybody at the low post people, so I'm really not seeing where you're going with this.

Mr. J
08-07-2010, 01:04 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and caution people against lynching martinet. The only sin the man's committed is being late, but now that he won't be offed for inactivity I think we can float him for another day. Someone else who's been catchng my eye though is javex. He's floating right around the lower middle post counts, but a lot of it has just been off-hand remarks and light commentary. Here's his 5 posts.

1. Introductory quip (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=822940&postcount=9)

2. He misses the Alpha Accusation, and then makes a vague remark about people who are aggressive being suspicious. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=823552&postcount=65)

3. He joins in against Alpha and realizes he'll have to be more active. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824377&postcount=114)

4. Plans to lynch Martinet if he doesn't show. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824474&postcount=121)

5. He posted above me! Actually more jokes. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824673&postcount=141)

The guy just appears to be floating along and not contributing anything at all. Too many of his posts look like filler and he keeps following along with what other people are doing.

Vote Javex

Also, if you're female I am very sorry.

Destil
08-07-2010, 01:10 PM
Just under 10 hours to go. A reminder that if you vote after 10PM MST your vote, will not count even if I haven't had a chance to close the thread yet.

Current Votes
shivam - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Alpha Werewolf - 3
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby
Paul le Fou

JohnB - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Martinet -2
spineshark
Alpha Werewolf

JohnB
08-07-2010, 01:11 PM
Unfortunately my time is short today IRL, but I did want to chime in on the active discussion for a moment. I'm personally not convinced enough by any poster to feel secure in a vote today. I know that one in every four posters is fiendish, but without the long and damning paper trail of multiple days of posts coupled with voting patterns it seems like nothing but shooting fish in a barrel. Unless there is a clear consensus that emerges in the next hours leading up to the lynch I just don't see a purpose in voting without some semblance of evidence, so I'm going to abstain for now. Tomorrow, however, is another day, and I will feel more secure in at least having a more solid body of work to create a case against the guilty with.

Martinet
08-07-2010, 01:19 PM
I'm a little unclear on the cost-benefit analysis of stringing me up just yet. Maybe my intro seemed too bumptious...

In terms of contributing things of substance, I'm not exactly qualified to comment on the nuances of these power roles, nor previous game, so I figure it's best to just avoid cluttering up the thread.

For what it is worth, I generally concur with JohnB's sentiments above re:abstention. However, out of an instinct for self-preservation, I may jump onto the Alpha Werewolf bandwagon.

namelessentity
08-07-2010, 01:22 PM
Just under 10 hours to go. A reminder that if you vote after 10PM MST your vote, will not count even if I haven't had a chance to close the thread yet.

Current Votes
shivam - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Alpha Werewolf - 2
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby
Paul le Fou

JohnB - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Martinet -3
spineshark
Alpha Werewolf
Brickroad

Javex - 1
Mr J.

Corrected because it appears Destil missed this page

spineshark
08-07-2010, 01:23 PM
Power roles aren't everything. I'd be pretty happy just to see some sign that you're actually reading the thread and thinking about anything.

kaisel
08-07-2010, 02:10 PM
I said I wanted to hound the quieter folks, so:

I vote for Martinet.

Granted, if he says something of substance (and soonish) I'll be glad to change my vote. Kayma's quiet, but I'm giving him the benefit of doubt right now, since he's proved to be pretty quiet but says things that are good for his team. Javex is a close second right now, mainly for making the same mistake Martinet has made (ie, not putting forth any thoughts).

I'm a little unclear on the cost-benefit analysis of stringing me up just yet. Maybe my intro seemed too bumptious...

In terms of contributing things of substance, I'm not exactly qualified to comment on the nuances of these power roles, nor previous game, so I figure it's best to just avoid cluttering up the thread.

For what it is worth, I generally concur with JohnB's sentiments above re:abstention. However, out of an instinct for self-preservation, I may jump onto the Alpha Werewolf bandwagon.

How are you going to help us win? If you just decide that you can't contribute then you're dead weight (no offense). The power roles this game are different for one, so none of us are exactly experts, and everyone should have some idea of strategy, even if it's a terrible strategy or idea, put it forth, and it could/should generate some discussion, and that's a good thing. Really, all I'm looking for is something that you're thinking about the game, and really, trying to base everything on old games has gotten us into trouble, fresh perspectives might help a lot (look at our reaction to Brickroad, he's a good player, but we treat him like some sort of deity, walking upon the earth, despite every time he's been a good guy, he's been generally bad at finding fiends/mafiosos/etc).

McClain
08-07-2010, 02:31 PM
I like the day-night time in this game, because it's ending at 1 a.m. Eastern, so I can wait until the last minute after work to make a vote.

I'm not sure about lynching the new guy right off. Is it because we think he's dirty, or baggage? I don't see the use in just throwing away a warm body. We don't have much to go on yet, but if he goes about defending himself, it's just going to make some of you think he's squirming. That happened to me twice before, when I was clean and dirty, with similar results.

Don't be surprised or suspicious if I stay out of this one.

Nodal
08-07-2010, 02:37 PM
The guy just appears to be floating along and not contributing anything at all. Too many of his posts look like filler and he keeps following along with what other people are doing.

Vote Javex


This is more something I can get behind. I find Brick more suspicious than Alpha this game, and Martinet doesn't seem to be dirty to me, just new and late. I vote to scan Javex.

Kylie
08-07-2010, 03:41 PM
I honestly have no idea why, but I feel bad voting for Martinet. He's clearly capable of communicating what he's thinking, and I think that's something that is actually valuable to a citizen cause -- someone who is capable of analysis and clear communication. If we have someone who CAN do that, it seems silly to lynch them without giving them a chance to prove themselves. How about this one:

We've had some discussion, not really about much of anything, but there have been words tossed out there. Do you at least have any suspicions -- reasonable or otherwise -- of anyone out there, Martinet? This way, if we lynch you, we'll at least have some more words out of you.

I think there's a case to be made against Javex. I think it's easy to write off Alpha's aggressive behavior as "Oh, that's just Alpha" -- but that bit us in the ass with Brick in M3, and with Calories in M4.

I need to go back and read more, but most of McClain's participation this game has just been asking about about rules. This is a really good way to participate while not ACTUALLY contributing. But again, first day, we're not going to have too much to go with. Unless there's a Silent Noise in this game.

McClain
08-07-2010, 03:46 PM
I need to go back and read more, but most of McClain's participation this game has just been asking about about rules. This is a really good way to participate while not ACTUALLY contributing.


You post this right below me saying that I don't like the logic for lynching Martinet.

spineshark
08-07-2010, 03:48 PM
Well, I really don't like the logic for not voting. It's cowardly, at best, and someone has to die whether or not you want to vote.

McClain
08-07-2010, 03:51 PM
Well, I really don't like the logic for not voting. It's cowardly, at best, and someone has to die whether or not you want to vote.

A valid point. I'm probably going to vote for Javex, because he seems more like he's hiding, while Martinet strikes me as still getting his bearings, which I can relate to.

Mr. J
08-07-2010, 03:51 PM
Not voting is a really bad idea. You allow the fiends to push the vote more easily and you basically make yourself worthless. You can't not have any suspicious! Make a case and vote for someone, otherwise you may as well not be playing.

Brickroad
08-07-2010, 03:56 PM
Not voting is a really bad idea. You allow the fiends to push the vote more easily and you basically make yourself worthless. You can't not have any suspicious! Make a case and vote for someone, otherwise you may as well not be playing.

A-fucking-men. Anyone who doesn't vote today, I'm going to give the business to tomorrow.

McClain
08-07-2010, 03:58 PM
A-fucking-men. Anyone who doesn't vote today, I'm going to give the business to tomorrow.

PSP games?! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMKiYrxenL8)

Okay, in case I get too busy to do it later, I vote for Javex.

Kylie
08-07-2010, 04:19 PM
There is never ANY reason to abstain from voting. No excuse that doesn't involve "pregnancy" or "amputation". Thank you, Mr. McClain.

I vote for Alpha Werewolf. Because Alpha can and will defend himself, and that's good. I want to see more out of Javex and Martinet.

Martinet
08-07-2010, 04:28 PM
The gathering momentum directed at myself seems to be based mainly on self-reinforcement and lack of a better target. Initially, it seems I was targeted in order to nudge me to speak up and provide enough verbal spew to be judged by. Still, it seems there's really no obvious separatrix between anyone at this point, except precedent.

Superficially, I'd try to divvy berks up thusly:

1. People who accuse
Alpha
Brick

2. People who get behind the above votes
dwolfe
nameless
JohnB
Paul le fou
Kaisel

3. Strong, silent types
dtsund
shivam

4. Mild-mannered berks removed from the fray
Umby
Byron
Nodal
Mr.J
McClain
spineshark
fanboymaster

5. n00bs
Myself
Javex
Kayma

In fairness, groups 2 and 4 are not exactly meaningful, and 5 should be distributed among the other, but this is just a first-pass assignment (meaning it's likely erroneous). A better (less subjective) taxonomy can be worked out, but it's something.

If we abide by the "townsfolk act without hesitation" idea, then we'd have to give the first group a pass for now. My personal preference would be to pick someone from 2 since they seem likely to be hiding.

I'll vote for Javex, for now, since he kind of fits the bill. It's tentative, depending on what others choose to do. Also, as I'm on the chopping block, I'm prioritizing expedience more than justification.

~~

"Who is the convict's worst enemy? Another convict. If zeks didn't squabble among themselves the bosses would have no power over them."

http://books.google.com/books?id=OQ4ZAQAAIAAJ&hl=en

Brickroad
08-07-2010, 04:37 PM
Why do you classify Kayma as a n00b?

(You're mistaken about that, by the way. But I'd like to know why you think it.)

spineshark
08-07-2010, 05:07 PM
I am okay with that post.

I retract my accusation of Martinet.

I'd like to see where this goes a bit more before recommitting, but we're celebrating my dad's birthday tonight and I'm not 100% sure I'll have time to vote again. I see Umby hedging all over the place; he votes for Alpha since he's pretty active and seems like the most suspicious person at first, but later points to quiet people and suggests prodding them. Then when people actually start doing that he suddenly flips around and wants no part of it.

I accuse Umby.

Martinet
08-07-2010, 05:28 PM
Ah...my apologies to Kayma. It seems I misread a post by Byron. I didn't mean to drag you down to my level.

Also, at the risk of seeming non-committal, I will likely change my to Alpha Werewolf, pending an updated vote count.

Mr. J
08-07-2010, 05:33 PM
You need to bold your votes or Destil will come down and eat you.

Javex
08-07-2010, 06:14 PM
Things I have learned today.

1) Jokey is bad.
2) Jokey is DOUBLY BAD when you've got nothing meaningful to say!
3) Having something meaningful to say and tying it up with a jokey manner is probably not a great idea.

Okay, that being said, I'm going to be pretty hard up to convince you all that I, one o' the new guys in town, is not actually a fiend attempting to eat your brains. That'll be doubly tough seeing as how I don't really have any arguments except for "I'm totally not!".

At this point, what do you get for lynching me? You get two dead bodies. BOTH of which will be among the clueless, unless the fiends get really lucky and off somebody important tonight. What's the chances of that?

Of course, there's always the arguement that you're just culling deadweight, somebody who will be more of a body than a help. I can't guarantee that I'll be a great assistance. But I can't very well tell you all I'm going to be a total screw-up either. I'm getting my bearings.

What's that all mean? Well, nothing, really. But I'll go ahead and keep to what I said at first. I said I wanted Martinet to show up, because I'd feel bad if I didn't and we had to stretch his neck for simply being a quiet dude. Instead of going that route, I'm going back to my original suspicions, the part of me that says "Motion is commotion, and usually just a distraction".

Ergo, I accuse Alpha Werewolf.

...dear God, that's too many words for too little substance. I need to find a happy medium.

Kayma
08-07-2010, 06:16 PM
5. n00bs
Myself
Javex
Kayma


http://sharkey.gamespite.net/forum/Smileys/classic/rage.gif

At any rate, yeah, I'm voting for Alpha Werewolf. There is, of course, very little to go on.... but that's the vibe I'm getting. Hopefully this won't be a waste, and more hopefully we'll have a night's worth of powers to think about tomorrow.

dtsund
08-07-2010, 06:23 PM
Also, at the risk of seeming non-committal, I will likely change my to Alpha Werewolf, pending an updated vote count.

I don't think we're getting another vote count before the vote's called. Anyway, I'm sticking with what I said before. I vote for namelessentity. I don't have the same feeling about AW that so many of you berks seem to share, and I refuse to vote for someone's lynch just because it's inevitable.

Martinet
08-07-2010, 06:24 PM
... * profuse apologies *

I was hedging earlier, but the momentum is building. So, I also vote for Alpha Werewolf.

JohnB
08-07-2010, 07:22 PM
Okay, so I've been pondering today's discussion for the last few hours and I have to say, I was wrong in my logic in my previous post. Clearly, the clock is against us. To waste a lynch, even on day one, even with little information, is tantamount to either fiendom or an apathy that furthers their cause and keeps us ever farther from getting out of this damn maze plane. Those of you who called me (and the others) out for this line of thinking should be credited, and I urge everyone else who has yet to vote today to do so.

That being said, where does the paper trail lead? I still am unconvinced that Alpha's bluster is fiendish in nature, and rather the work of a veteran player stirring the Day 1 pot. His attitude & particular use of language could use a little work, but regardless I don't find him to be the most suspicious one around today. That honor goes to Shivam. From reading past games his play hasn't appeared to be as sound as the average player (sorry man), and all of his posts today have been insubstantial at best. He mentions a suspicion of crowd direction (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=823233&postcount=44) at this point, but never returns to the matter to explain who or where he sees this. I think this kind of approach is damaging to the clueless as it could certainly be a misdirection gambit of its own, or simply be the vapid empty statement it remains. Of course, he may also just be fiendish, and thus sowing chaos serves his best interest. In another post he posits the question of what we sort of information we should be seeking to learn from our first lynch (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824523&postcount=129), yet again offers no insight or commentary to kick off this discussion. Almost incredibly (or is it hilariously?), he wonders aloud in this post (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824865&postcount=147) about who amongst us has said anything of substance, or tried to direct the conversation? Who, indeed.

Ultimately, his posts thus far appear completely insubstantial and do not appear to serve the town or the general discussion at hand. That's enough cause for me today, on Day 1. I accuse Shivam.

JohnB
08-07-2010, 07:29 PM
Also! Has Shivam voted today? He has not. This isn't helping the town cause.

fanboymaster
08-07-2010, 07:46 PM
I accuse Alpha Werewolf. I know lynching the aggressive hasn't historically been very helpful, so this is just more of a gut thing. Then again, I probably shouldn't trust my gut since it told me Brick was innocent in M3. Oh well. Then again, he was aggressive and that was part of why I didn't think we should lynch him. Let's just say that in my head this all makes sense.

McClain
08-07-2010, 07:56 PM
Also! Has Shivam voted today? He has not. This isn't helping the town cause.

These are all good points. I don't think the momentum will swing tonight, but I'll be curious to see who Shivam finally votes for, if at all.

Still, I'm going to predict that Alpha is getting strung up by at least a couple of fiends...

Destil
08-07-2010, 08:08 PM
Three hours of light left. I'm headed to a birthday party, but I'll be sure to close the thread on time at least. May be a little before I write up the result.

Current Votes
shivam - 1
Alpha Werewolf
JohnB

Alpha Werewolf - 6
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby
Paul le Fou
Byron
Kayma
Martinet
fanboymaster

JohnB - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Martinet - 4
spineshark
Alpha Werewolf
kaisel
Javex
Brickroad

Javex - 3
Mr. J
Nodal
McClain3
Martinet

Umby - 1
spineshark

namelessentity - 1
dtsund

Brickroad
08-07-2010, 08:11 PM
Hey, Destil. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824887&postcount=152)

Destil
08-07-2010, 08:13 PM
Hey, Destil. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824887&postcount=152)

Fixed. I'll do a once over of the entire thread before I do the final count.

namelessentity
08-07-2010, 08:55 PM
Just got off work and caught up. I like the initiative Martinet has put forward in a voting personality list, so welcome to the side of useful people who I won't try to kill tonight.

Currently I'm looking at Javex and Alpha. Javex's defense looked a little like flailing, trying really hard to say "please don't kill me," but then agian that is what all new players do. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you can't defend yourself in this game, all you can do is present a better target.

Whats got me about Alpha is after his little spat, he seems to have quieted down significantly. Might be his ploy at acting "normal" failed and now he's trying to duck under the radar. Then again, maybe real life happened, I don't really want to vote for a guy because stuff got in the way.

So now I'm looking at people who I don't think will help our cause again, Shivam's low post count, lack of substance and missing vote at the moment lead me to my action.

I vote for Shivam

McClain
08-07-2010, 09:06 PM
Just heads up for any fence-resters, but if Shivam doesn't vote by the time I'm leaving work (about an hour from now and an hour before the deadline) I'm switching to him. I still might if he just pops in to vote after being so inactive.

McClain
08-07-2010, 10:00 PM
Aaaaaaaannnnnnnnd, time!

I retract my previous vote and accuse Shivam.

dwolfe
08-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Just to clarify, I was the one who accused AW first, not brickroad, so that would put me in group one of your player list.

Most players wouldn't be that aggressive if they're mafia, but we're dealing with five (right?) mafia who haven't had a chance to talk yet, and I would expect that aggressiveness from AW (hiding in plain sight). It's kinda clever, yet risky as all heck and a bit confrontational.

Destil
08-07-2010, 11:00 PM
Voting is closed.

Final Votes
shivam - 3
Alpha Werewolf
JohnB
namelessentity
McClain3

Alpha Werewolf - 7
dwolfe
Brickroad
Umby
Paul le Fou
Byron
Javex
Kayma
Martinet
fanboymaster

JohnB - 0
Alpha Werewolf

Martinet - 3
spineshark
Alpha Werewolf
Brickroad
kaisel

Javex - 2
Mr. J
Nodal
McClain3
Martinet

Umby - 1
spineshark

namelessentity - 1
dtsund

Destil
08-07-2010, 11:12 PM
The dim light in the street faded into darkness. When the final vote was cast Alpha Werewolf stared out across the group. Berk didn't fight back, didn't even raise his voice in protest. dwolfe lead the group upstairs, to the third floor window Destil had tried to leap out of to freedom. Ice wall was melted, the window hung open, firelight from the city above flickering in the sky.

It's rare that giving someone the rope was this literal. Alpha Werewolf took the rope himself with a silent nod, his fingers running slowly over the hemp, taking in the texture. Paul le Fou secured one end to the bed and Alpha Werewolf placed the noose around his neck. Without looking back to the group he turned and dropped.

The snap was sickening.

Byron lead the group on searching Alpha Werewolf's room, while Kayma and Martinet cut down the corpse. No fire, no brimstone, no shifting back into the form of some hideous hell-spawned creature. fanboymaster brought down his belongings and tossed them onto the bar. Nothing more incriminating than an old pocket knife and a flier for a seedy brothel in the hive.

Alpha Werewolf was a citizen.

The group went back to their rooms in silence. And fear.

It is now night.

Destil
08-09-2010, 10:59 PM
Sleep wouldn't find namelessentity this night, no matter how long the poor sod spent in bed. He found himself wandering the streets outside the inn, testing the exact boundaries of the maze. "There's a way out, you know." he spins in place, turning to the cutter cloaked in shadows behind him in an alley.

"I don't believe you. If there's a way out, how come you haven't left then?"

"It's the portal key: your name, berk. Most of us `round here have names too long to chant three times before hitting the ground. For you... just jump from that there roof, fall won't kill ya', even if it doesn't work."

nameless looks back at the building being pointed to, and the cloaked figure disappears into the shadows before he turns back. Cutter's got to try, right? Making an effort to keep his mind and his voice clear he drops to the street, which warps into a yawning portal, reddish light filling the alley.

The elemental plane of fire is lovey this time of year. 'course, if a sod's got to breathe or eat or can't walk on magma may not be the best place for a visit. Still, the ember swarms are just beautiful.



Meanwhile, McClain was enjoying bit of grub, scribing madly in his diary. A knock at the door causes him to freeze with fear. If he knew what was waiting for him on the other side, perhaps he'd have jumped out the window, run shouting into the night. He may have made it a bit farther a least.

But the poor sod had no idea what was on the other side of the door.

You found him the next morning, or what was left of him. Which wasn't much.

namelessentity and McClain were killed during the night.

It it now day.

dtsund
08-09-2010, 11:25 PM
Two kills? Huh.

I think I've got an idea as to who the Mercykiller might be now.

kaisel
08-09-2010, 11:46 PM
Man, I thought we learned our lesson about killing people randomly in earlier games. Hopefully we got a fiend, but I doubt it, as the chances are rather dismal that we did. On the other hand, maybe it's better to use the power rather than... not? Regardless, I'm going to avoid any speculation on the Mercykiller, wouldn't want to draw any attention to anyone, since I have a feeling we're going to end up needing 'em before the end of this, one way or another.

Mr. J
08-10-2010, 12:13 AM
I actually don't think that the 2nd kill is that big of a deal. Unless the sensate comes out today or tomorrow, we'll have that extra kill when we need it. Because there are only 5 fiends we've got some time left to work with still.

ie. who the mercykiller is, let's not because then we'd be helping the fiends.

Javex
08-10-2010, 12:36 AM
I don't remember seeing this in the rules, but do we find out if mercykiller's victim was citizen or fiend? I can imagine this would help us plan a little better.

Or should we just assume he offed a helpless citizen?

Mr. J
08-10-2010, 12:37 AM
We don't find out about it. The dustman and the mercykiller do learn though (if we have a dustman that is).

shivam
08-10-2010, 01:10 AM
so yeah, regarding the missing vote--I was at sarcasmorator's party the entire day, and quite literally lost track of time in this game. I know that we lynched alpha for less, but when i left, I didn't have a clear idea of who i would have voted for, anyway. the first day is always a hard nut to crack for me.

So the question is, who led the charge against alpha? Brick started it, but he shifted to martinet later. Did we just take out alpha because of metagaming reasons, or was someone trying to lead the charge against an 'easy' target?

will have to analyse posts tomorrow.

shivam
08-10-2010, 01:18 AM
Also, we know this much- neither nameless nor mcclain were the aasimar. If they had been, they likely would have protected themselves the first night, as was the standard in the first two mafia games. So what were they? Did we lose power roles here, or were the fiends just shooting in the dark as well?

Mr. J
08-10-2010, 01:30 AM
I bet I get blamed for this.

All praise Brickroad the Prophet!

dwolfe started the alpha vote.

shivam
08-10-2010, 01:35 AM
it was fated to happen. my apologies, brick. the point still stands though--was alpha a directed kill or just a shot in the dark?

shivam
08-10-2010, 01:38 AM
actually, rereading the thread, since i drank a lot of caffiene late last evening and can't sleep, it seems that dwolfe's call for alpha WAS a joke, or at least, a halfassed reaction to alpha's own trigger finger.

and i adjust what i said above--the rules of this game are such that aasimars can't use their powers continuously. does that mean it's possible that one of the two dead cutters there was actually a winged one in hiding who held his powers back?

Javex
08-10-2010, 01:39 AM
From the perspective of a dude what voted for the guy (me), it felt like both. We were flailing, he didn't help matters, and he got caught in a storm he created.

Mr. J
08-10-2010, 01:54 AM
1. Alpha's lynch seemed like a lack of other targets. only 2 of us presented otehr cases (besides martinet) and neither gained much traction. Alpha was lynched because there wasn't much else to go on.

2. Now is not the time to be guessing if our aasamir got killed; when we need him/her is when we'll deal with it. Until then any discussion would largely lead to useless paranoia.

The thing I find interesting about alpha's lynch is the large spike in votes right before th end. There was quite a bit of band wagoning. I need to get some sleep; so, I'll look at it more in the morning.

spineshark
08-10-2010, 03:00 AM
Umby and shivam are jerks for not voting but it's not like they would've pushed the results anyway. For now I'm not any more worried about them than I would have been otherwise, but because of the way Day 1 went, that still means they're both a little higher on my radar than most people.

Actually, now that I'm looking at some of the stuff that went down with McClain and nameless yesterday, I am noticing a couple of fascinating facts. First, both of them accused shivam yesterday. I don't think that leads to anything I could consider a hard fact since he at most he only could've been responsible for one of those deaths, leaving at least three obvious possibilities on the table (mercykiller, fiend, frame job). But both also were among the five most talkative players on day one (with Mr. J in sixth but passing them just now). The other three are AW, who is also dead, Brickroad, and Byron. At this point, it's plausible that the fiends are attempting to volume control the game, but they may also want us to think that so that we'll do it ourselves. It wouldn't be the first time either of those things happened.

There's also the simple possibility of power/fiend suspicion behind the kills. Two sides of the same coin, really, since it's pretty easy to mistake one for the other, or even just an ordinary person who would much rather not die.

The other signals from yesterday's final vote are probably not going to be too clear either, but overall I really, really doubt that none of the fiends voted for AW. At the same time, I think that especially on the first day, we're especially liable to hurt ourselves without too much help from the fiends, so I'd expect a fiend voting for AW would be someone who tried to slide in without explaining themselves too much over a person who was really trying to make a case and persuade others (and in some sense, themselves).

spineshark
08-10-2010, 03:08 AM
That said, I really don't want to go all tunnel-vision on the AW voters. We know that they voted for someone who came up innocent, and gathering more results like that will likely get us more information than trying to mow them down one by one.

dwolfe
08-10-2010, 04:11 AM
I'm going to be gone for the entirety of this game-day (3-day tour of a Naval base in Norfolk, last minute thing). So I'm going to post/vote right quick and all.

First up, we have lots to eat today, unfortunately. Long pig is the name of the day, in three unappetizing varieties. Please don't ask me to make an omelet out of 'em, poor saps.

Second, I can reason out why the mercykiller killed last night. If they didn't use their power immediately, they lose a second chance at making a kill on Night 4 if they die before then; if alive, their second chance is still a Night later. But why their pick? Because they saw people bandwagoning Shivam at the final hour? Which pick was theirs?

Third, why did the Mafia pick the other person bandwagoning vs Shivam, when that was a suspicious play, maybe the most suspicious play from Day 1?

Fourth up, suspicious if I die: honestly, I have no clue. Not brickroad or Shivam, maybe, but too many people are way way under my radar right now. And no time to continue, gotta catch a flight.

Fifth, obligatory defense post to serve in my stead: yeah, my vote vs AW was a total joke made on the lightest pretext, just like his was. Guys, I said voting so early was suspicious, then did it myself. I was trying to make some conversation happen. I stuck to the vote because no one else presented a better target; and if you do the math, AW was probably going to die, at best changing my vote would have tied with marionet...marion...oh man guys, a new person named marion? I have a bad feeling.

Brickroad
08-10-2010, 05:57 AM
To answer your question, shivam: I very deliberately led the charge against Alpha. I wasn't first to vote for him, sure, but I was the driving force. I wanted him dead because he was just as likely to be a fiend as you or anyone else, but unlike you or anyone else he was pretty much dead weight as a townie.

That I changed my vote later is pretty much irrelevant. I hammered on him, damage done, nothing else to say. Brickroad says right and you cats all go right. That's what I've learned after four games of this nonsense.

Let's try and suss out who killed nameless and who killed McClain, and why. Ideas?

Destil
08-10-2010, 06:12 AM
and i adjust what i said above--the rules of this game are such that aasimars can't use their powers continuously. does that mean it's possible that one of the two dead cutters there was actually a winged one in hiding who held his powers back?

In the event that the aasimar's protection target is hit by more than one killing effect, all are prevented for that one night. So even if the cipher, the mercykiller and the fiends all want someone dead it would work.

JohnB
08-10-2010, 06:57 AM
Here are some quick reaction thoughts to the events of last night, in no particular order. Follow up & analysis (of these questions, and others) to follow later in the day...

1) Obviously, one of the big questions from yesterday is why were 2 out of the 3 voters for Shivam killed? I instigated that party with my analysis post (http://toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825124&postcount=180), and McClain & nameless agreed well enough with it. While I did post it late in the day, it certainly wasn't some 11th hour bandwagon. Clearly, either Shivam is a badguy and the fiends wanted to stop this dangerous chain of thought (which they must be pissing their pants with glee that the mercykiller helped them out in this endeavor), or Shivam was just all sorts of a useless clueless yesterday and the real meat lies in the Alpha vote (or elsewhere), and this is a red herring. We ought to be able to discern more about this, so I plan to follow it up.

2) "Why are you still alive? You started this vote for Shivam business!" I can only say that the Fiends know that I am not of their number, and I do hope to be dangerous to them with my insights now and in the future, but one kill per night is only one kill per night.

3) Is it simply an incredible coincidence that two Shivam voters caught the attention of both the Fiends and the Mercykiller, or was this a grudge/meta thing?

4) Shivam's 4 posts in the space of less than hour reek of guilt. Recall McClain's back and forth with Merus in M4... and he was damn guilty. I'm not sure it's quite so black and white with Shivam here. He certainly is feeling the heat, what with the Town's threats against the Day 1 non-voters alongside my own arguments for his guilt/uselessness, so as a clueless he would have practically as much paranoia about his continued mortality as a Fiend would. I'm going to be watching carefully who he votes for today.

5) As I said in the previous gameday, I thought Alpha was a clueless (idiot). He was. We need to suss out whether the Fiends through in their lot with voting for him, or held off. There were five of them yesterday... where are their votes?

6) Assuming a worst case scenario, there is a Don and someone was converted last night. That makes for six fiends and 12 townies... yesterday the odds were about ~25% for hitting a fiend. Today it's 33%. It also means we are rapidly running out of time. I'm beginning to think that we will need some role reveals as early as Day 3, because how many of us will be left to work things through by Day 4...?

JohnB
08-10-2010, 08:10 AM
A clarification for point 4: I'm referring to Shivam's Day 2 posts so far, not Day 1.

Nodal
08-10-2010, 09:02 AM
Guys. Brickroad is acting the exact same this game as he did in M3, when he was Mafia. He yells loud and forcefully about people, he proclaims he's being targeted, he says that if you want to say anything about him follow it up with a vote for him, he says he's just yelling at people to make them post. These are the exact same things he did in M3. I vote to scan Brickroad.

JohnB
08-10-2010, 09:05 AM
Is meta and one day of play enough information to hang Brickroad from the streetlights? I don't know, man. Is there anything specific about his yelling/posting in this game that sets your radar off?

Nodal
08-10-2010, 09:10 AM
Is meta and one day of play enough information to hang Brickroad from the streetlights? I don't know, man. Is there anything specific about his yelling/posting in this game that sets your radar off?

The idea that a certain citizen is useless and just a wasted spot so might as well lynch them anyway even if they're not Mafia. Every citizen we have left is a little bit more time against the mafia, and it's always a better idea to go for the suspicious rather than go for the useless.

Umby
08-10-2010, 09:19 AM
Well, when I was looking through the votes for day one, one thing really struck me. Paul Le Fou only posted twice that first day, yet he jumped on the bandwagon for Alpha Werewolf, and stayed there with almost no explanation. My thoughts? He's dirty. I vote Paul le Fou.

Brickroad
08-10-2010, 09:39 AM
These are the exact same things he did in M3. [/B]

And M1, and M2.

Kylie
08-10-2010, 09:43 AM
I mistrust Umby. A guy who posts a couple of times, and doesn't vote casts suspicion on a dude who posts a couple of times, and DOES? You gotta know how that looks.

JohnB raises some real interesting points, and a couple of responses go like this.

Unless the Mercykiller is somehow communicating with the fiends via meta, it is likely that the dual-shivam nature of the kills is coincidence. We can still dredge some info out of it! But the connection itself is probably accidental.

There are still plenty of things we don't know -- we don't know who killed whom, and we don't know if ANY of the deaths so far have been power roles, or even whether or not nameless/mcclain were fiends. To give us that information, our dustman/mercykiller would have to come forwards and PLEASE don't do that, fellows/ladyfellows. Not even if two of them were fiends. Which may be possible.

And while I feel a little icky defending the Brick, the AW lynch is only his fault in that he voted for AW, like myself and dwolfe and others. The other factors at play were that AW didn't defend himself or make a spectacular case for anyone else, and that Martinet, who was feeling a little bit of pressure, made a pretty great case for Don't Hang Me Yet.

Hanging Brickroad at any juncture is an iffy idea, 'cause it's so hard to read who he's playing for. I think it'd be silly to say Hey Brick's Loud, String Him Up. For the moment, at least. If he's a loud fiend, he'll slip up eventually. We've heard why shivam didn't vote, whether or not it's an excuse. What's your deal, Umby?

Umby
08-10-2010, 10:05 AM
My deal? Well, first of all, Byron, I did vote. For Alpha Werewolf. This was to start a bandwagon and see who jumped on. Guess who did? Paul le Fou and a few others. However, Paul le Fou has some really great mafia tells: He jumped on the bandwagon for almost seemingly no reason, and although he usually is quite talkative has said relatively little this whole game. I think it's quite obvious that he's playing differently, and therefore should be lynched on the principle that he's the most suspicious.

I, at this point, doubt that Brickroad really is a mafioso, like other people are claiming. I'd wait to make a verdict on that one.

The reason I didn't vote, though, was because I was busy in real life. Also, I found no one I really wanted to vote for too much. Alpha Werewolf was just a guy who made a bad move, Martinet hadn't posted and was new, and the movement towards Javex happened at a time I was looking at the thread. My apologies.

Umby
08-10-2010, 10:06 AM
Let me rephrase, I did vote Alpha Werewolf, then took away my vote because I really didn't see Alpha as a mafioso and my so called "trap" was in place already.

kaisel
08-10-2010, 10:20 AM
Here are some thoughts that I have:

RE: Brickroad

Just basing it on his loudness, I think, is a fool's game. He's always loud (Lower Deck aside), and yeah, he happened to also be a mafioso in M3. But he was also loud during M1 and M2 where he was not on the other side. I don't mind taking a look at him, but we need more evidence besides volume. Is there something else you found there Nodal, or is this just an accusation to get this party started?

RE: Deaths

Unless the Mercykiller, for some reason, is playing for the Fiends, I doubt there's much connection between the deaths, unless he's sure of shivam, and trying to direct our conversation that way. I don't know if I put much stock into that interpretation, since I think trying to argue the point would do better than killing off a potential townie. Not knowing who killed who is kind of difficult too. I'm going to try to look through both McClain's and namelessentity's posts tonight, try to see if I can suss out who killed who, see if there's anything suspicious about either...

Kylie
08-10-2010, 10:26 AM
A mercykiller who was sure of shivam ought to have hit shivam. The Mercykiller's power is too infrequent and direct to be an efficient tool for directing suspicion.

I think it's a pretty safe assumption that the mercykiller hit nameless/mcclain because of something they specifically did or said, not because they wanted us to look at someone else.

Paul le Fou
08-10-2010, 10:39 AM
Talkative? Me? Are you serious? Go back and read our old games. I was talkative in M1 when I was clean, M2 when I was mafia, and dead quiet in M3 when I was mafia. I'm busy. I literally have something on every day of this week, and won't even be at work with a computer for a couple of these days. I haven't even had time to post the speakeasies from Thing yet. I'll try to pop on when I can - like right now, when I'm awake at 1:30 so I can stay active to some degree.

I did vote for Alpha Werewolf, but not to jump on the bandwagon. There was no bandwagon. I had two reasons.

1. Form a bandwagon. There were 2 votes for him, but little momentum. I wanted to create an environment where people could safely jump on, and see if I could catch any tells from that. Sadly to say I did not, barring going back and re-analyzing old posts, which I hope to do when I can. I do find it pretty funny that Umby took the same tactic and thinks he's caught me, though. I guess that doesn't speak well for my tactics. Detective work was never my strong point, I guess. Stick to random guessing, Umby, you might actually accomplish something again.

On the other hand, I don't necessarily find Umby attractive as a... bad guy, yet, because his blundering about is basically expected at this point. He's Umby being Umby. It would make a good hiding spot, but it would also be identical to his citizen game.

2. We had nothing to go on, Alpha was as good a target as any, and the kicker: I find him annoying and thought if we had to lose someone on little information, he'd be the one I'd rather not see in the game anymore. That's all. Responsible playing? Maybe not, but it's day 1. No one had any better ideas that I saw.



Brickroad is too hard to read at this stage. He has sucked at sussing out mafia but if there's one thing he's excellent at it's his poker face - looking innocent. We'll need more actual game behavior to see what he's up to.


As for the maf- corr- PRC- fiends, just based on our past games my inclination is that they'll have a pretty even spread of talkative/active and quiet/background, and will spread their votes out across popular targets and secondary/random targets. And at least one of our most vocally helpful citizens will probably be a fiend.

shivam
08-10-2010, 10:45 AM
4) Shivam's 4 posts in the space of less than hour reek of guilt. Recall McClain's back and forth with Merus in M4... and he was damn guilty. I'm not sure it's quite so black and white with Shivam here. He certainly is feeling the heat, what with the Town's threats against the Day 1 non-voters alongside my own arguments for his guilt/uselessness, so as a clueless he would have practically as much paranoia about his continued mortality as a Fiend would. I'm going to be watching carefully who he votes for today.


Man, people were yelling at me to talk more, so I'm talking more. And like i said, i came home from a movie very late last night, and I had hammered a large soda, so i was totally hopped up on caffiene and couldn't sleep. If i had been a little more patient, all four of those posts would have been one much less retarded post.

I do agree that it's bizarre that two of the three people who aimed for me died. I'm a bad player, but i'm not a moron. Why would I do something so obvious as peace out someone gunning for me? Especially after saying that i didn't have enough info to go on?

And then, two of them died. That means that both the fiends AND the mercykiller/cipher saw something suspicious in the list gunning for me. So the question is why?

fanboymaster
08-10-2010, 11:30 AM
...

The other signals from yesterday's final vote are probably not going to be too clear either, but overall I really, really doubt that none of the fiends voted for AW. At the same time, I think that especially on the first day, we're especially liable to hurt ourselves without too much help from the fiends, so I'd expect a fiend voting for AW would be someone who tried to slide in without explaining themselves too much over a person who was really trying to make a case and persuade others (and in some sense, themselves).

I can't say I'd be surprised either given that 6/19 people held onto their votes for him. If we don't count the lynchee, that's 1/3 of the people in the game. It would be more anomalous to not find any of them there. We'll need more correlative evidence before this becomes useful information.

...

Second, I can reason out why the mercykiller killed last night. If they didn't use their power immediately, they lose a second chance at making a kill on Night 4 if they die before then; if alive, their second chance is still a Night later. But why their pick? Because they saw people bandwagoning Shivam at the final hour? Which pick was theirs? ...

Honestly, I'd say this argument makes more sense for the Cipher. He can't change his vote and that looks suspicious, so he might have decided that using his power in some way and then being able to blend back in would be worthwhile. Otherwise he'd probably get lynched for being bullheaded.

Umby
08-10-2010, 12:45 PM
Well, then, at least you have a good reason, Paul, but until I see a better target, I'm not changing the vote quite yet.

Javex is piquing my interest as well.

Martinet
08-10-2010, 01:08 PM
So, to state the obvious, are we assuming the mafiosos did not vote as a bloc? At this stage of the game, that seems likely--mobilizing their numbers in a concerted effort would be too obvious. But, totally spreading out their votes would also be wasteful. I assume, then, they took a hybrid approach (2-3 vote for x, 2-3 spread out), meaning that the voting patterns are still relevant. In particular, knowing that unjustified-yet-convenient momentum was building against both AW and myself, it's probably useful to identify people who quietly added their votes.

shivam
08-10-2010, 01:14 PM
i don't know that you can assume that the fiends worked together on the first day at all, seeing as they would have had no chance to talk to each other before the first night.

shivam
08-10-2010, 01:15 PM
oh, and can we get an exact time as to when this day will end? I don't want to miss it again.

Kylie
08-10-2010, 01:27 PM
I think if the fiends voted as a bloc, we'll be able to consider ourselves EXTREMELY lucky. That'd be a huge tip-off, and as far as I recall the only time it's ever happened was against Marion in M2West, which was a unanimous vote. If it turns out they did, the first fiend will lead us straight to the others. And if they aren't too smart to do that, we'll have a very fortunate game on our hands.

I hate to say it, but AW was, in retrospect, the worst person we could have hung to start with, barring our power roles. His logic wasn't logic at all, and I didn't trust his deductive skills, and Paul's justification probably applies to EVERY citizen-type that ended up voting for AW -- I can't say it didn't factor into mine. Especially since his lack of defense meant that if he WAS a power role, he wouldn't have outed himself. That's something NOBODY could have predicted.

Why is Javex on your radar, Umby?

Mr. J
08-10-2010, 02:03 PM
I was going to continue my accusation of javex from yesterday, but Umby seems to be playing a little fast and loose.

Umby
08-10-2010, 02:07 PM
You should probably continue your accusation, because it appears that anything I say seems to be coming out of a fool's mouth (although that is probably true). This is how I always play, though. You guys should know that.

shivam
08-10-2010, 02:14 PM
So why Javex?

Kylie
08-10-2010, 02:27 PM
Some people will jump on anything. I don't see too much suspicious about Javex, which could be a perfectly good reason to BE suspicious, but you mighta caught something I missed.

The dude I thought I was going to pursue into today turned up dead, so let's get the talking going again. I want to figure out why the mercykiller/cipher/fiends wanted him dead.

Destil
08-10-2010, 02:40 PM
oh, and can we get an exact time as to when this day will end? I don't want to miss it again.

8/12 @ 10PM PDT, for you (no daylight savings in AZ)

Javex
08-10-2010, 04:51 PM
Well, crap...the timing of this is now going to look very awkward thanks to previous mutterings in this conversation, but "who dares, wins" and all that.

So, Umby's got my attention in a major way. He's had it since the tallying of the votes right before we strung up Alpha. Why? The unvote. Umby votes, rescinds his vote, continues taking part in the conversation, but never casts another vote. I have no idea what that means, and I don't know that it really matters, but his behavior since the unvote (and really, since the beginning) isn't really helping matters. Particularly since he handwove it off as "my trap was laid".

I have nothing to back it up (obviously), but there's no one else whose actions don't quite match up with their words thus far, and at the risk of sticking out my neck to get stretched out, I accuse Umby.

Umby
08-10-2010, 08:29 PM
Well, that's because the trap was indeed laid. And whether it worked or not, I don't know, but I'm going with my intuition here, which did me really well last game and terribly any other game. Hope you get the good results this game, I really do.

I was unable to get to the computer to vote, seeing as I was helping paint the new school I was going to along with some other things. I can be busy too, you know.

spineshark
08-10-2010, 11:40 PM
I thought ill of Umby yesterday and am just as dubious today, but now that I'm thinking back to M4U, he went on a wildly successful streak of pointing fingers for a huge portion of the game, so I have no doubt he can be more cunning than I'd expect. I'm still wary, and of course, even if I decide to trust in his innocence, I'll be coming to my own conclusions. For now though, I'll hear him out.
I can't say I'd be surprised either given that 6/19 people held onto their votes for him. If we don't count the lynchee, that's 1/3 of the people in the game. It would be more anomalous to not find any of them there. We'll need more correlative evidence before this becomes useful information.
This was exactly my point. We have a clear data point on a set of people small enough to be manageable, but big enough that we can expect 1-2 fiends in it. With some more voting and discussion from those people I think we may be able to make some good guesses about those people. This applies to everyone else, obviously, but we don't currently have any proof about anyone else who received votes yesterday, so the information isn't as useful.

shivam
08-10-2010, 11:44 PM
to be clear, we are certain that the two who died last night were citizens, or is that a dustman only thing?

Destil
08-11-2010, 12:11 AM
Sorry that this post is a little late, was running my other D&D game.

Current Votes

Paul le Fou - 1
Umby

Umby - 1
Javex

Destil
08-11-2010, 12:12 AM
to be clear, we are certain that the two who died last night were citizens, or is that a dustman only thing?

No clue here, berk. Want the dark on the dead, ask a dustman.

dtsund
08-11-2010, 05:32 PM
You know, I like both Umby and Paul for the lynch. Accusing early and backing off is classic scum* behavoir; then again, so is bandwagoning with little reasoning. Heck, they could both be Fiends for all we know, quarreling with one another just to throw us off.

I find Umby just slightly more suspicious, but I feel a little bad for him being the punching bag again, so I cast my vote for Paul le Fou.

*Somebody had to do it

JohnB
08-11-2010, 06:09 PM
Hmm. The conversation has died down considerably. At least for the last real day, we can see the Fiends aren't yet the types to stir the pot themselves. Not yet, anyway. Let's change that:

McClain!: A Digest.

Intro post. Says he wants be less chatty this game. (Guess he is, now) (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=823298&postcount=45)

Joke post about how we aren't voting to scan in this game & that Paul isn't in charge. The easiest way to deal with that confusion would be to hang Paul. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=823660&postcount=76)

Minor rules clarification. Says he doesn't find anything suspicious about me thus far & is curious as to what Alpha is really getting at. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=823972&postcount=97)

Wants to know more about how the sensate role functions. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824275&postcount=107)

Acknowledges a previous poster attempting to explain the role, and calls himself "clueless" about this game/power roles. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824290&postcount=110)

Comments on Brick's harassing Martinet's first post. Curious about when the day actually ends. Feels that lynching AW is not the best plan, but doesn't offer anything in place of it himself. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824843&postcount=144)

Is very skeptical of lynching the new guy for the sake of him being the new guy. States that since no strong candidate has been put forth thus far he's learning towards abstaining completely from Day 1 voting. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=824992&postcount=161)

Is a little snippy towards Byron for his criticism that all of McClain's posts thus far seem to be concerning only the rules and not of any other substance. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825030&postcount=164)

Says he is now leaning towards voting for the other new guy (Javex) because "he seems more like he's hiding" rather than Martinet's confused new-guy approach. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825033&postcount=166)

Links to an odd YouTube video in response to Brickroad and then votes for Javex. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825039&postcount=169)

Likes my logic in voting for Shivam but doesn't change his vote. Still thinks AW has too much of a lead for any other berk to overtake him. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825135&postcount=183)

With two real-time hours to go before Day 1 ends, McClain announces that if Shivam doesn't vote within 1 hour he'll vote for him. He might even just vote for him anyway. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825176&postcount=188)

With 1 hour left McClain changes his vote to Shivam. (http://www.toastyfrog.com/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=825216&postcount=189)

This marks the end of his in-game posting. McClain does post a few times in the Mafia thread during the Day 1 Nighttime before Day 2 begins and he finds himself having shuffled off this mortal coil.

What can we learn from McClain's posts? Why was he a target of the Fiends, or the Mercykiller? Honestly, after all this I'm not too sure. I do feel like his newb questions were not the result of a sophisticated Fiendish plot & rather the honest remarks of a player new to a Mafia game with discrete and multiple power roles. This is just a gut feeling, though. In a critical examination of his voting pattern, McClain does point his gun at Javex briefly, ignoring his equally n00b status with Martinet (and myself, for that matteR) to question his appearance of "hiding" rather than being a n00b to the game, much like himself. I guess he saw a kindred spirit in Martinet? Hard to say. Mostly, McClain did not seem to feel the Alpha train was a very strong one, but did think that my case for Shivam was strong enough material for a Day 1 vote.

Unresolved questions:
1) Was McClain a fiend who was killed by the Mercykiller? Doesn't feel like one, unless he was extremely double-thinky.

2) Was McClain a power role? Nothing in his posts suggests this EXCEPT for his continued questions about how they work. He could have been one hiding under the guise of innocence/ignorance, hoping the Fiends would ignore him. This is possible; dude does know how to read and I have a bit of a hard time thinking that someone who played M4 so close to the end couldn't be bothered to read the intro posts from Destil about this game.

3) Was McClain a citizen who was killed by the Fiends? Possible, especially if (as above) the Fiends thought his ignorance about power roles was a ploy to get folks to think he WASN'T one.

4) Any meta-gaming reason for him to be targeted on Night 1? I really don't know. What do you guys think?

5) Any poster from Day 1 seem to have a grudge against him? I can't find any real evidence of this. If there is, it might be evidence that this person was the Mercykiller and McClain rubbed them the wrong way. I doubt it, though.

Thoughts? Who's up for the Nameless digest? We're going to be under the shadow of the noose soon...

Kylie
08-11-2010, 08:19 PM
Those are damn good thoughts, JohnB. My personal suspicion is that you hit the nail on the head with your digest -- that he was caught in a bad idea (not voting) and to avoid retribution today, he came in under the wire for the safest vote possible - not Alpha Werewolf, but shivam, since nobody (today) is going to berate (or maybe even examine) the folks that took a swing at shivam for his no-vote. That's a vote whose motivations are clear, and don't bear examining. This makes the twilight decision to vote shivam - for a crime McClain nearly committed himself - pretty suspicious, and unlikely to bear prosecution today. I think if the MK was going to strike, there are worse motivations to base that judgement on.

If McClain was a fiend, don't tell us so, please. Hitting one doesn't change our strategy so far, and it's a huge risk outing some important folks.

I honestly don't think either Umby or shivam are fiends, if only because not-voting as a fiend strategy is kind of weak. You establish a record that is negative, and you expose yourself immediately, and abandon opportunities to manipulate people. If they're fiends, they're some dumb fiends.

A good question is, do we lynch people as a preventative measure? We did this twice during M3, and it hurt us both times -- once when we killed Pappy, and again when we auto-lynched the Scanner. I don't feel good about letting behavior that weakens the town go unconfronted, but at the same time, it seems like we're willingly killing people we should be forcing fiends to kill.

I'm interested in Paul, now. That's a dude capable of playing an extremely subtle, and sinister, game. Remember how he played us ALL during M4? Terrifying.

I'm a little tied up this week with law school essays - if nobody else can do the digest on Nameless, I'll try to. I'll also put in a vote for Kayma now, to be revised as soon as I'm happy with this other stuff I'm writing. Because Kayma's been doing a lot of watching, and no talking. As he did during M3. When he was Mafia.

Nodal
08-11-2010, 08:44 PM
HEY PAUL. I VOTED TO LYNCH BRICKROAD.

Javex
08-11-2010, 08:47 PM
Interesting that you mentioned Kayma just now. I was going back through the conversations, trying to figure out if there's a connection between nameless and McClain (aside from the shivam votes) and coming up with just about nothing. They were both big into the conversation about the mechanics of power roles, but that really tells me nothing, because half of the townsfolk were doing likewise.

Kayma's absence became fairly glaring, as he showed up to vote and...something else, although I don't remember quite off hand what it was.

That being said, I'm still going with Umby - I agree with the idea that the "No Vote = Dumb Fiend", but that doesn't say anything about vote then unvote concept. Which might be dumb on my part, but I'm nothing if not committed to bad ideas.

Destil
08-11-2010, 09:57 PM
Hey Paul. I voted to lynch Brickroad.

Did someone say something? Some sort of echo in here.

I just assume Nodal's voting for Merus/Brickroad unless he says otherwise, anyway...

Kayma
08-11-2010, 10:37 PM
I'll also put in a vote for Kayma now, to be revised as soon as I'm happy with this other stuff I'm writing. Because Kayma's been doing a lot of watching, and no talking. As he did during M3. When he was Mafia.

http://sharkey.gamespite.net/forum/Smileys/classic/detect.gif

Destil
08-11-2010, 10:55 PM
Current Votes
Brickroad - 1
Nodal

Paul le Fou - 2
Umby
dtsund

Umby - 1
Javex

Kayma - 1
Byron

shivam
08-12-2010, 12:33 AM
I don't know if i'm willing to throw umby under the bus for missing day 1's vote, as it would be awfully hypocritical for me. Day 1 is a dump day anyway--look at the votes we had.

Kayma's and Paul's silences are far more suspicious, i think, and Javex is definitely acting like a new guy trying just a smidge too hard.

I think, going back over the posts, that I have to vote for JAVEX, because I can't really get a read on what he's aiming for, and that in itself is suspicious.