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View Full Version : Army in Tyrolia To Munich: Diplomacy, Anyone?


Umby
11-30-2010, 10:56 PM
Diplomacy is a game that is made to simulate the time of many secret alliances before World War I. It is a great board game that involves no dice, only your own skill. HERE IS YOUR EVER EXCITING MAP!

http://www.userfriendly.org/games/diplomacy/diplomacy_map_colour.gif

There are seven European powers you can play as, randomly drawn. THEY ARE: France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Austria-Hungary, Russia, and Turkey.

Rules can be found here (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Diplomacy/Rules).

Is anyone here interested in starting up a game over Talking Time, possibly?

Game 1 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=11098)
shivam - Russia
Poetfox - Austria
Ereror - Turkey
Dizzy - Italy
Meditative Zebra - Germany
Epithet - France
Destil - Britain

Winner: Ereror, with special mentions of Epithet and Destil for some well played moves and second places.
Games start the 27th, where assignment to European powers go out, and turns shall go three days for moving turns, and a day for building turns.

shivam
12-01-2010, 12:42 AM
i'm down for any board game =)

Posaune
12-01-2010, 10:07 AM
I'm interested but I'm worried I'm not clever enough for anything harder than Catan.

Captain Keene
12-01-2010, 11:17 AM
I've been very interested in playing Diplomacy for years now, but an inability to track it down as well as a fear of destroying friendships has kept me away from it. I would love to play this game with you guys. Mostly because you can't punch me through the internet.

Umby
12-01-2010, 03:53 PM
Chances are, Posaune, that all people in the first game will be new. If I get enough interest, I'll start two games during winter break.

Nodal
12-01-2010, 04:02 PM
I will play this game. Yes...yes...

Karzac
12-01-2010, 06:23 PM
I'd be interested, but would prefer for it to start after Mafia is done.

Umby
12-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Indeed, I was hoping it'd be done by my break, which starts the 22nd (well, except I'll be driving up to Buffalo to be with the family for Christmas), but if needed I can start after Mafia ends. Totally reasonable.

Epithet
12-01-2010, 07:27 PM
Oh well, I'll join. Never played before, though.

Sarcasmorator
12-01-2010, 07:43 PM
I think I'll be down. Are we playing on TT, then, or elsewhere?

Umby
12-01-2010, 07:46 PM
We'll be using PMs, probably, to talk to each other and to send orders to me (which I'll explain when I explain the rules of the game). I'd use a thread to post the results each day and to give deadlines and etc.

Matchstick
12-01-2010, 07:55 PM
*wonders how long it will be before somebody quits Talking Time as a result of this*

Dizzy
12-01-2010, 07:57 PM
When are the games beginning?

Meditative_Zebra
12-01-2010, 09:01 PM
Color me intrigued. I've always wanted to try this game, but I think most of my friends would either 1) be put off by all the inevitable backstabbing or 2) actually stab me if I dared betray them.

Ereror
12-01-2010, 09:05 PM
I'm in on game 2. I already get mad at games like Risk, so it's probably not a good idea to play this with any RL friends.

Umby
12-01-2010, 09:05 PM
As I am planning right now, I would start both games after the current game of mafia is done, but if you guys would like to start it sooner, I'm all for it. I'd just think people would be less busy during the winter break time, but at the same time family could make people busy. I'm up for suggestions on start times.

I understand your concern, Matchstick (although I cannot tell if it's serious), but backstabs are usually understood to be part of the game, not personal. Then again, this is... TALKING TIME!

Dizzy
12-01-2010, 09:44 PM
I think beginning the game after the current Mafia game is complete would be best.

If this will be so, sign me up!

And can I pweeze pweeze pweeze play as Austria-Hungary? I would like to play them every game.

Mazel tov!

Umby
12-01-2010, 09:48 PM
Heh, thanks for the mazel tov.

I will be selecting people via a random number generator, unfortunately for people who play favorites (or who have hated powers, such as me and Italy... four times in a row). My first win was with Austria, but Austria is considered the hardest country to start playing just because of its central position and the first to be taken out by a Juggernaut (Turkey+Russia). Of course, if you can get Turkey into Russia while pulling off a Lepanto, well, that's another story.

Sarcasmorator
12-01-2010, 10:50 PM
*wonders how long it will be before somebody quits Talking Time as a result of this*

That's not very diplomatic.

I'm looking forward to this. Me, shivam, Red Hedgehog and Lucas have been getting increasingly cutthroat in our games of Through the Ages.

Emcee Escher
12-01-2010, 10:55 PM
I'll join for Game 2.

Kayin
12-01-2010, 10:56 PM
I'm tempted, but these always turn out to be a bigger commitment then I am willing to make. Either way, I'm following the shit out of this thread.

spineshark
12-02-2010, 07:57 PM
I'm playing. I've been really interested in this ever since it first came up (via shivam?)

Red Hedgehog
12-02-2010, 10:45 PM
Man, I had an idea for awhile to run a Diplomacy game on Talking Time as with sort of "Let's Play" explanations for everyone else while the seven playing took each other on. Don't have the time to do, but would probably have the time to play.

shivam
12-02-2010, 10:46 PM
man, you need to finish that star control LP first.

and i've never played diplomacy, but have always always wanted to.

Umby
12-02-2010, 10:56 PM
I'm not sure about putting you in, Red Hedgehog, then. I'm willing to make you a GM of one of the games, if you want, because you're experienced, but I want more new people involved with these games.

Otherwise, you could totally be the Tanto of Diplomacy, making summaries of turns or a summary at the end of the game.

Red Hedgehog
12-02-2010, 11:09 PM
man, you need to finish that star control LP first.

and i've never played diplomacy, but have always always wanted to.

That's MoltenBoron. My LP shame lives on in my avatar (and I promise to come back to it once I do something about the dead computer upon whose hard drive it sits).

I'm not sure about putting you in, Red Hedgehog, then. I'm willing to make you a GM of one of the games, if you want, because you're experienced, but I want more new people involved with these games.

Otherwise, you could totally be the Tanto of Diplomacy, making summaries of turns or a summary at the end of the game.

Yeah, I'd be happy to do either one. (GM or be Tanto). I think it is really helpful to explain to new players why moves succeeded or failed and what possible strategies players could be going for.

Destil
12-02-2010, 11:50 PM
Okay, what the hell. Count me in.

Karzac
12-03-2010, 08:47 AM
How is shivam in both games?

Posaune
12-03-2010, 01:43 PM
How is shivam in both games?

Well, one is Shivam while the other is shivam. Dig it?

Umby
12-03-2010, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I'd be happy to do either one. (GM or be Tanto). I think it is really helpful to explain to new players why moves succeeded or failed and what possible strategies players could be going for.

Since it's easier for me to GM both, I'll just go ahead and do that, and you can explain things. If for whatever reason I drop off the face of the earth and need someone else to GM, you'd be the first person I go to. I'm not planning to, and don't have a record of doing so, but in any case it's great to have a backup.

Sorry, didn't notice that shivam already posted in this thread. Destil took doppleganger-shivam's place.

poetfox
12-07-2010, 03:08 PM
I played this once years ago, at a summer camp over a whole week, and never really figured it out.

I think that dotted line means you have one more slot? I'd love to join if you need me.

shivam
12-07-2010, 03:14 PM
so can anyone, uh, teach us the game before we start?

Umby
12-07-2010, 03:30 PM
I'll try to teach when I have time, which chances are will be the weekend. This week has been a whirlwind for me. The games start around December 20th, we'll get a concrete date soon (can you guys let me know when is convenient?). I'll teach definitely before then.

Also, this means that all spots for the two games are full!

Red Hedgehog
12-08-2010, 03:50 PM
I'll try to teach when I have time, which chances are will be the weekend. This week has been a whirlwind for me. The games start around December 20th, we'll get a concrete date soon (can you guys let me know when is convenient?). I'll teach definitely before then.

Also, this means that all spots for the two games are full!

I can also help out with teaching. In fact, Umby, if you tell me the software you'll be using (so I can make sure the images look like what people will see) I could put together a nice screenshot tutorial. jDip?

Umby
12-08-2010, 05:13 PM
I actually use RealPolitik. What is this jDip you speak of?

Red Hedgehog
12-09-2010, 12:42 AM
I actually use RealPolitik. What is this jDip you speak of?

Basically does the same thing as RealPolitik. I like the graphics in it better, but other than that and having a Linux version, I'm not sure there's much of a difference between the two. jDip (http://jdip.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html)

Umby
12-19-2010, 05:28 PM
Welcome to Umby's explanation of the rules of Diplomacy! I'm your host... Umby.

As you can see on the map, there are seven powers within Europe at the start of 1901. They are as follows, with these starting units.

France: Armies in Marseilles and Paris, fleet in Brest.
Britain: Army in Liverpool, fleets in London and Edinburgh
Germany: Armies in Munich and Berlin, fleet in Kiel.
Italy: Armies in Rome and Venice, fleet in Naples.
Austria: Armies in Budapest and Vienna, fleet in Trieste.
Russia: Armies in Warsaw and Moscow, fleets in St. Petersburg and Sevastopol.
Turkey: Armies in Smyrna and Constantinople, fleet in Ankara.

All seven people playing shall be randomly given a country. The game starts in Spring 1901, and a year has three turns: Spring, Fall, and Winter. The goal of a player playing as a power is to gain more than half the map (which is 18 supply centers) by capturing them on Fall turns. What makes this game so different from other games is that a powers of equal force CAN NEVER RANDOMLY WIN. Only a greater power can beat a lesser power.

Turns go as follows:

Each unit a power has can be ordered to make one move per turn. There are four types of moves:

Holding: Self explanatory. An army does not have to be ordered to hold; if no other order is given to it, it auto-holds.

Moving: An army or fleet can move (or, attack) from one territory to another. Armies can move from one land territory to the next, and never overseas without the help of a fleet (more on that later). A sample of a move order is

A Constantinople to Buglaria (A denoting "Army", and "to" denoting that it is a move).

This order would send the army Turkey has in Constantinople to Bulgaria, with a power of one (also, more on that later). A landbridge exists from Denmark to Sweden, and thus an army in Denmark can move to Sweden and vice versa.

Fleets can move to any province that has a coast (any territory that has land touching the water) and any water territories (e.g. Mid Atlantic). In the case that a territory has two shores (Only Spain, Bulgaria, and St. Petersburg), when moving to a coast, a coast must be denoted in the move order. A sample move order for a fleet is as follows:

F Ankara to Black Sea (F denoting "Fleet", and "to" denoting that it is a move).

The whole point of the game is to have an army in a neutral or enemy supply center by the end of the turn to capture it. The more supply centers one has, the more armies and fleets a power can support at any one time. The number of armies and fleets (counted together) equals the number of supply centers a power has at one time, except in the case of a disband (yet again! explained later). At no time may the number of armies and fleet go over the number of supply centers one has.

Supports:

This is the meat of the game. This is how an army can garner a power of two. A support can be enacted if two armies or fleets border the same territory, and one of them wants to move there. A sample support move and move combo looks like this:

A Vienna S A Munich to Tyrolia
A Munich to Tyrolia (S stands for support)

This move order has an army from Munich attacking Tyrolia with a power of two. If that army in Venice decided to move with a power of one to Tyrolia, its move would fail, the army in Munich would succeed to move into Tyrolia, and the army in Venice would stay in Venice. In the situation that both armies move with a power of one to Tyrolia, they would "bounce" each other out and back into their respective territories. REALIZE THAT ANY ARMY OR FLEET CAN HELP ANY OTHER ARMY OR FLEET UNDER THE CONDITION THAT THE ARMY OR FLEET CAN MOVE TO THAT TERRITORY IT IS SUPPORTING THE OTHER ARMY OR FLEET TO ITSELF. This is the crux of Diplomacy; help your opponents to further your own agenda and gain their trust!

If there was an army in Tyrolia, in the above example, and it was there with only a power of one, then when attacked with that power of two, it would be dislodged. A dislodged unit retreats to any territory it could move to normally except for a territory where a standoff happened beforehand. In the example of an army in Tyrolia being attacked with a power of two from Munich and supported from Vienna, it could retreat to Venice, Piedmonte, or Bohemia (if there was an army or fleet in any of those territories, there wouldn't be an option for retreating there: no units can stack). In the case of there being no places to retreat, the unit is disbanded (destroyed).

A unit can also choose to support hold a unit, so it could not be taken with a power of equal strength. The unit that is being support held cannot be moving (holding, and correct me if I'm wrong but I think this includes supporting as well).

Convoying: An army can go over water territories to another land territory on one turn ONLY IF there are enough fleets there to convoy it over. A sample would be as such:

A London to Picardy
F English Channel C A London to Picardy (C stands for convoy)

In this case, in one turn, the army jumped from London to Picardy. Convoys can also be supported. A convoy will succeed unless when there is a unit blocking the convoy by moving with an equal or higher power to the territory or being in a territory with an equal higher power. Convoys otherwise can only be stopped by dislodging a convoying fleet.

So, a first turn moveset by Turkey may look something like this:

A Constantinople to Bulgaria
A Smyrna to Constantinople
F Ankara to the Black Sea

The idea behind moves is to get yourself in position, so that on a Fall turn, you will be in an enemy's or neutral Supply Center. The more SCs you have, the more armies you can build in Winter Phase.

Winter Phase consists of the players sending the GM build orders, so that their total number of armies and fleets out on the board will equal the number of SCs a power has. Armies and fleets can only be built in your home supply centers (the ones you start with), so only three can be built at one time (except for Russia, who can build four).

If you have any questions, please, do not hesitate to ask! The games shall start 12/26/10, or sometime around there. Please give me a good starting time for you peoples!

Umby
12-20-2010, 07:37 PM
GET PUMPED GUYS. GAME STARTS SOON.

PLEASE GIVE FEEDBACK.

Destil
12-20-2010, 08:26 PM
I didn't see the full rules, because I was waiting for a post not an edit.

Pumped. Got it.

Karzac
12-20-2010, 08:33 PM
Sounds awesome man. My only request is that I'm unavailable on the 26th, but the 27th would work.

Umby
12-20-2010, 08:33 PM
Oh, and quickly, a scenario, to see if you guys get the rules.

1. There is a British army in London and a British fleet in the North Sea. There is a Russian fleet in the Norwegian Sea. There are German armies in both Sweden and Kiel. Orders are as such:

Germany:
A Kiel to Denmark
A Sweden S A Kiel to Denmark

Britain:
A London to Denmark
F North Sea C A London to Denmark

Russia:
F Norwegian Sea to North Sea.

What's the layout of the map after these moves?

shivam
12-20-2010, 09:26 PM
yeah, not available on the 26th.

Umby
12-20-2010, 09:29 PM
I'll push it to the 27th. Does anyone have a problem with three day turns for moving, and one day turns for building?

Posaune
12-21-2010, 01:23 AM
Oh, and quickly, a scenario, to see if you guys get the rules.

1. There is a British army in London and a British fleet in the North Sea. There is a Russian fleet in the Norwegian Sea. There are German armies in both Sweden and Kiel. Orders are as such:

Germany:
A Kiel to Denmark
A Sweden S A Kiel to Denmark

Britain:
A London to Denmark
F North Sea C A London to Denmark

Russia:
F Norwegian Sea to North Sea.

What's the layout of the map after these moves?

Germany has armies in Denmark and Sweden. Everyone else has the same position due to armies being pushed back and fleets canceling each other out?

Umby
12-21-2010, 01:40 PM
SOLUTION:

Yes, Posaune, everything stays the same, besides the move of the army in Kiel to Denmark. The whole point of the exercise was to see if you knew that only dislodging stopped convoys, and there was a landbridge between Denmark and Sweden.

Umby
12-26-2010, 09:04 AM
If everyone, today and tomorrow, could post in this thread confirming their wish to play in the two games of Diplomacy, I could get the games started TOMORROW!

If not, we can postpone until a later date, seeing as people probably have forgotten.

Epithet
12-26-2010, 10:19 AM
I'll play if Etrian III doesn't eat my soul first. It's kinda short notice though, since I think everyone's forgotten about this thread.

Dizzy
12-26-2010, 02:50 PM
I'll be ready to play tomorrow!

I haven't read the rules or anything, but this seems like it kick all sorts of terrorist ass.

Meditative_Zebra
12-26-2010, 05:31 PM
I'd be ready to go tomorrow! I admit that I had mostly forgotten about this with the holidays and everything, but Monday should be good to start. I read the rules post, but I'll probably need some help to make sure that I've got everything down.

I haven't read the rules or anything, but this seems like it kick all sorts of terrorist ass.

Agreed!

Destil
12-26-2010, 06:13 PM
Ready to go here.

Ereror
12-26-2010, 10:21 PM
I'm ready.

poetfox
12-26-2010, 10:58 PM
I can do this! I'll keep an eye out.

shivam
12-26-2010, 11:07 PM
jacked up and good to go.

Umby
12-27-2010, 08:16 AM
Give me time to prepare, because I'm on vacation, and the thread will be up sometime tonight, with your country assignments and a due date for the orders. So far, I see seven people out of fourteen responding, so if no one else responds, that'll be our first seven for the first game, instead of what I have written up. If the other seven come at a different time, I'll start it up when they're ready.

Game starts tomorrow, for you seven lucky people:
1. Shivam
2. Poetfox
3. Ereror
4. Destil
5. Meditative_Zebra
6. Dizzy
7. Epithet

spineshark
12-27-2010, 10:00 AM
I'm still in.

Karzac
12-27-2010, 11:30 AM
I'm still in.

Emcee Escher
12-27-2010, 11:33 AM
I'm in for the second game.

Umby
12-27-2010, 03:53 PM
Ok! Our first game, with country assignments!

1.Epithet - France
2.Shivam - Russia
3.Dizzy - Italy
4.Poetfox - Austria-Hungary
5.Meditative_Zebra - Germany
6.Destil - Britain
7.Ereror - Turkey

A new thread, just for this game, shall be going up soon. I was going to have the orders due at the end of three days. Is that too quick, or is that just right?

Just for future reference, talk between players happens in the form of a private message. Orders are to be also sent in a private message, with the specific form that will be shown in the new thread. If you have any questions for me about the rules or anything else, ask me in this thread or over a PM if necessary.

Posaune
12-27-2010, 09:03 PM
Oh fudge. I was too late.

I'm still in for the B-game?

Umby
12-27-2010, 09:07 PM
Of course, as soon as those seven assemble. Currently, game 2 looks like this:

1. Emcee Escher
2. Posaune
3. Karzac
4. Spineshark

with the other there who already claimed a spot as the assumed last three players. I'll wait two days until I take newcomers, though, if some of them don't peek their heads out soon.

Game 1 Thread goes up tomorrow, as promised.

shivam
12-27-2010, 10:16 PM
so what is the starting set up like? do i have an initial deployment?

Sarcasmorator
12-27-2010, 10:53 PM
I'm down for game 2.

Red Hedgehog
12-27-2010, 11:13 PM
so what is the starting set up like? do i have an initial deployment?

Yes. Since you're Russia, you start with armies in Warsaw and Moscow and fleets in St. Petersburg and Sevastopol.

The wikipedia map has the initial setup for the game (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diplomacy.svg). (I actually prefer the variant where Italy starts with a fleet in rome.)

shivam
12-27-2010, 11:25 PM
so can someone give me an idea of how to play? i get umby's guide and stuff, but i mean more in the sense of what is a 'good' move?

poetfox
12-28-2010, 12:26 AM
Someone with more knowledge can maybe explain better or tell me how completely wrong I am, but hey, here's how I understand it.

Basically, this is a game of social manipulation. You can't take over things unless you have superior forces, and to get superior forces, you have to convince people to support you. However, since you don't order in public, you don't have to do what you actually say. There are consequences with that, of course.

So yeah, you make alliances, and break them, and so on and so forth until someone takes everything over. A good move is one that would better your social position in order to help you pull strings to eventually lead to your dominance of the board.

Also, let's be friends I'll never attack you ever.

Umby
12-28-2010, 08:44 AM
(I actually prefer the variant where Italy starts with a fleet in rome.)

Huh! I've never played that before. I'd prefer that, really.


So yeah, you make alliances, and break them, and so on and so forth until someone takes everything over. A good move is one that would better your social position in order to help you pull strings to eventually lead to your dominance of the board.

This is correct.


Also, let's be friends I'll never attack you ever.

Pahahahahahahahah- Oh wait, you're serious?

I'll get the game up tonight. For now, I go bowling! You can technically start diploming now, with RedHedgehog's initial board setup in his link of the board.

Red Hedgehog
12-28-2010, 11:43 AM
poetfox largely has the right of it in the long term. Because you can't get into a territory unless you have more support than anyone else in there (or anyone else trying to get in), you will need to make alliances or at least short term agreements. The most high-risk, high-reward alliances are with those next to you - e.g., Russia and Turkey can be hard to beat if they team up. But since they are right next to each other, it only takes one move for one to really screw the other over. Which, of course, is the thing to do in order to win the game. The question is when is the right time to put the knife in your ally's back. Alliances between powers that don't border each other can work out well too (e.g. England and Germany) but it takes longer to get significant benefit from your ally and what is England to do once France and Russia have been taken care of?

The first turn is generally spent feeling out the other players. Are they amenable to a one turn agreement? Do they have potential for a long-term alliance? It is also spent making a grab for the unowned supply centers. Every power should be able to grab at least one by the Winter (remember there are two moves each turn - Spring and Fall and you only see if a new person owns a supply center at the end of the Fall).

In terms of military tactics, while the rules are relatively simple, there are a lot of subtle moves that can be done with cutting support or planned "bounces" (attacking with the same force as another player), but really the game is about its name - Diplomacy. That said, control of the English Channel or the Black Sea gives that player a huge advantage early on.

I will happily give more general beginner advice if wanted.

Emcee Escher
12-28-2010, 12:31 PM
How is the order of moves determined? For example, if a territory got attacked while it was supporting, would the support still go through?

Umby
12-28-2010, 12:36 PM
This is a good question. All orders for a turn go in at the same time. This means that the support will not go through if a territory other than the one that it is supporting an attack to is attacking it (support is "cut").

shivam
12-28-2010, 12:41 PM
is there a reason to ever leave a supply undefended?

Red Hedgehog
12-28-2010, 02:10 PM
is there a reason to ever leave a supply undefended?

1) If it's a home supply center and you want to build there during the winter
2) If it's reasonable that an opponent can't get to it and you want to expand with your fleets/armies.

Red Hedgehog
12-28-2010, 02:54 PM
This is a good question. All orders for a turn go in at the same time. This means that the support will not go through if a territory other than the one that it is supporting an attack to is attacking it (support is "cut").

Here's an example of this. The relevant portion of the board is like so:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/red_hedgehog/dip-example-premove.png

Italy has gotten itself into a pickle. Austria-Hungary has two units next to Venice while Italy has no units adjacent to Venice. This means that an attack from Austria-Hungary would have one support for a strength of 2 so Austria-Hungary could take Venice. Italy is on friendly terms with Germany, but the German army in Munich is not adjacent to Venice and so could not provide support.

All is not lost! Italy suspects that Austria-Hungary will be attacking from Trieste and providing support from Tyrolia. This means that if the unit in Tyrolia is attacked, its support will be "cut" and thus the fleet in Trieste will have no support for its attack. Thus, Italy asks Germany to attack Tyrolia from Munich. The orders from all relevant powers and units look like this:

Austria: A tyr Supports F tri -> ven
Austria: F tri -> ven
Italy: A ven Holds
Germany: A mun -> tyr

Or graphically:
http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll14/red_hedgehog/dip-example-orders.png

When the turn is resolved, the Munich attack cuts the Tyrolia support. Thus the fleet in Triests will bounce with the Army in Venice (since it's a one on one attack now). And thus all units will wind up where they are at the beginning of the turn. And Italy will owe Germany big time.

Of course, if Austria attacked from Tyrolia instead of Trieste, its support could not be cut by Germany and it would definitely succeed (barring another unit attacking Trieste to cut its support).

Also note, that Italy could not have its army in Venice attack Tyrolia to cut support as you cannot cut support for an attack into the territory where you are coming from.

shivam
12-28-2010, 03:00 PM
oh man. this game is way complicated.

Destil
12-28-2010, 06:14 PM
So, are fleets ever able to enter land, or do they just start there due to the supply centers? Can they only support armies? It sounds like they can move as far as they want in one turn, is that right?

Posaune
12-28-2010, 07:22 PM
oh man. this game is way complicated.

Ugh, now I'm getting nervous.

Emcee Escher
12-28-2010, 07:39 PM
So, are fleets ever able to enter land, or do they just start there due to the supply centers? Can they only support armies? It sounds like they can move as far as they want in one turn, is that right?

I'm pretty sure that fleets can enter land spaces that have coasts. For example, if a fleet moved into Portugal, it would be in Portugal and not in some weird limbo thing on Portugal's coast, so you couldn't have an army in Portugal and a fleet on Portugal's coast at the same time. And I'm also pretty sure that every unit can only move one space at a time, unless you use a fleet or a chain of fleets to convoy an army across water.

DISCLAIMER: I got all of this from reading the Wikipedia page linked to on the first post, so there is a not-small chance I got something wrong.

Dizzy
12-28-2010, 08:06 PM
I may have to pay someone to play this game for me.

Umby
12-28-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm pretty sure that fleets can enter land spaces that have coasts. For example, if a fleet moved into Portugal, it would be in Portugal and not in some weird limbo thing on Portugal's coast, so you couldn't have an army in Portugal and a fleet on Portugal's coast at the same time. And I'm also pretty sure that every unit can only move one space at a time, unless you use a fleet or a chain of fleets to convoy an army across water.

DISCLAIMER: I got all of this from reading the Wikipedia page linked to on the first post, so there is a not-small chance I got something wrong.

This is all correct. Seriously, if you have questions, just ask. Diplomacy isn't complicated at all, it just has a big learning curve. Which is why I have all newbies in the game, so no one has an advantage over the other.

So, are fleets ever able to enter land, or do they just start there due to the supply centers? Can they only support armies? It sounds like they can move as far as they want in one turn, is that right?

Just to rephrase:

Fleets can support anything, just like armies can. The only way supports work, though, is that the supporting unit can move to the place being attacked as well. Fleets and armies can only move one space per turn. Fleets can enter territories that have coasts.

Red Hedgehog
12-28-2010, 09:36 PM
Fleets can support anything, just like armies can. The only way supports work, though, is that the supporting unit can move to the place being attacked as well. Fleets and armies can only move one space per turn. Fleets can enter territories that have coasts.

Additional:
Any unit (fleet or army) can capture a supply center.

Though it may be obvious, a fleet can't move through land. This mostly comes into play because Spain and St. Petersburg have both north and south coasts. So a fleet that moves from Gulf of Lyon to Spain could (on a later turn) move to Portugal or Marseilles, but not to Gascony.

Destil
12-29-2010, 03:33 AM
Moves are simultaneous? Can I move a fleet first, then convoy an army across that fleet in the same turn? Or can I only issue the convoy order when the fleet is in place at the start of the turn?

Likewise can an army moving 'make space' an army later in the same turn? I.E. can Turkey make the move of:

A Butapest -> Romanina
A Vienna -> Butapest

From the opening setup. And if so what happens if the first army bounces back out of Romania?

Umby
12-29-2010, 08:16 AM
Only one order can be issued for a unit per turn, so no. A convoy must be made the next turn. However, if one unit moves out of a territory, another can move in. Although you're talking about Austria-Hungary and not Turkey, those moves would be valid, and if there was no interference then there would be an army in Vienna and Budapest. If the move to Romania was blocked, then the army in Budapest would bounce back to Budapest, and the army in Vienna would bounce back to Vienna.

Does that answer your questions?

Destil
12-29-2010, 11:25 AM
I think so. The convoy order is given to a fleet, then, and not an army?

Umby
12-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Correct. The army is merely told to go from one province to another. An example:

A London to Picardy
F English Channel C A London to Picardy

That's the format for a convoy.

Destil
01-01-2011, 09:42 PM
Do you control your own supply centers without needing to leave armies/fleets in them if unoccupied? I know you couldn't build in them, but say I have two neutral/enemy centers in winter and my third unit is in the middle of no-where. do I only build two armies/fleets this winter, or three?

Umby
01-01-2011, 09:47 PM
Supply centers stay yours if they are unoccupied by an enemy's unit during Winter, unaffected by if they are currently occupied by your own unit. You may only build in home supply centers, and you cannot build in home supply centers if you have a unit occupying it.

Does this answer your question?

Destil
01-01-2011, 09:50 PM
Loud and clear, boss.

Karzac
01-04-2011, 07:35 PM
Hey people who said you were interested in this! Come back! I want to play!

Umby
01-04-2011, 09:13 PM
You can get in the second game when this one is done, if those people don't show up!

Karzac
01-04-2011, 09:17 PM
You can get in the second game when this one is done, if those people don't show up!

But I wanna play now! *stomps feet*

Seriously though, thanks for running this whole thing Umby. It's pretty cool of you to do.

Umby
01-04-2011, 09:50 PM
It's really not a problem. Much easier than running that variant on Facebook, that I may introduce one day when we have more players with games under their belts.

Destil
01-12-2011, 04:34 PM
Maybe my confusion is stemming from the way the map is colored, but do you need to hold a supply port in Winter to build more units? Or does it automatically go to the last nation to have held it? I was reading the rules that you needed to be back there in winter.

Posaune
01-12-2011, 06:06 PM
But I wanna play now! *stomps feet*

Seriously though, thanks for running this whole thing Umby. It's pretty cool of you to do.

Uhh, if there is a second game I don't wanna be involved. Too hard! Sorry guys.

Umby
01-12-2011, 06:15 PM
How come? It's really actually very simple to play, and with all newbies, it's the best way to get into it. Most people in these first few games will be as clueless as you think you are going to be (although, a few in this game I admit have caught on very quickly).

Maybe my confusion is stemming from the way the map is colored, but do you need to hold a supply port in Winter to build more units? Or does it automatically go to the last nation to have held it? I was reading the rules that you needed to be back there in winter.

A supply center stays with a country unless there is a unit of another country in it at the end of a Fall turn. In your example, Norway would still be yours even if you didn't have an army in it at the end of this turn, for whatever reason.

shivam
01-12-2011, 06:16 PM
i dunno about simple, pal.

Umby
01-12-2011, 06:19 PM
It takes time to get used to, I understand, but when you start really getting Diplomacy, it takes no time at all to whip out orders and think about possible moves. Took me a year or so to get to this point because I only played in a handful of games, but hopefully me analyzing the game afterwards with RedHedgehog can show what could have gone more optimally and notes for the next game. You'll get it in no time.

Destil
01-12-2011, 07:08 PM
A supply center stays with a country unless there is a unit of another country in it at the end of a Fall turn. In your example, Norway would still be yours even if you didn't have an army in it at the end of this turn, for whatever reason.

That opens up some strategic options I hadn't been considering. Excellent...

Red Hedgehog
01-13-2011, 11:44 AM
i dunno about simple, pal.

There are definitely some complex interactions, but the basics of "You need more support than an opponent to get into a territory" are pretty easy to see.

Umby
02-03-2011, 05:34 PM
We're looking for one more person to replace Russia. Turn its frown, upside down!

Meditative_Zebra
02-13-2011, 07:18 PM
So now that we've (possibly) concluded our first game of Diplomacy I thought we should come back here and post our suggestions for ways to improve the game.

One of the things that I felt killed momentum in the game was the fact that we had so long in between moves. I think it would help if we had fixed days of the week when turns would occur. Perhaps something like this.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o23/meditative_zebra/Talking%20Time/Dipolmacy_Schedule.jpg
[All deadlines would be 10pm PST, at the GM's discretion.]

Also, having fixed days when orders are due would help to make sure that everybody is on the same page knowing when their orders are due. The compressed schedule would also help keep the game for dragging out so long. Our game wasn't even a long one and it took nearly two and a half months, which is just way too long for a game like this.

Also, if we're going to try another game her on the boards we need to figure out some way to compel more actual diplomacy out of the players. I was much lighter on diplomacy than I should have been, yet I conducted more outreach then I received from the other players. I think there were only two times in the game when I was contacted by a player who wasn't just responding to a message I had sent. (To be clear, I'm blaming the structure of the game, not the players.)

Any thoughts?

Karzac
02-13-2011, 07:21 PM
I'd like to see some actual discussion in the thread. It makes it more fun to read than just looking at the maps.

Meditative_Zebra
02-13-2011, 07:25 PM
I think there's some potential in the idea that the players are only allowed to send so many game related PMs (maybe they could go through the GM so he could regulate it) and all other diplomacy would have to be conducted in the thread.

This would make the obvious alliances take place more out in the open (France-UK, Germany-Austria), and then when a betrayal occurs it would be all the more exciting/confounding.

Umby
02-13-2011, 07:27 PM
There is also a program online that does resolving for you, however, it is not agreeable like me and does not take orders late, no sir.

I was also wanting to run a game myself before we started a group that could live game some Diplomacy at any time. However, Meditative, that is a good idea, and I'll probably use it.

In other news, I want to get a list of anybody who'd be interested in the next game! I'd prefer it to be all new people, but even a veteran from the last game is fine.

Ereror
02-14-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm assuming future games will be much less forgiving about turning in your orders, as we had pretty much an extra one day for every turn.

Umby
02-14-2011, 07:54 PM
Well, hopefully we won't need to be like that. I'll probably follow Zebra's plan of order turning in. I was just trying to keep this game balanced so that everyone would have a fair chance to learn about the game, instead of being punished for taking a little too long to turn in orders.

Meditative_Zebra
02-14-2011, 10:33 PM
My other suggestion would be that, in addition to posting a set schedule, the GM post a link to the official rules (www.wizards.com/avalonhill/rules/diplomacy.pdf) [pdf] in the first post.

Dizzy
02-15-2011, 12:24 AM
Diplomacy was really boring. Yes it was my first game and I made idiot errors, but I feel like this game is made for people who enjoy bird watching, geography and reading judicial reports from Ancient Rome. Did anyone even talk to each other a lot?

shivam
02-15-2011, 12:53 AM
there certainly was a lot of talk between me, germany, turkey, and austria.

Meditative_Zebra
02-15-2011, 12:57 AM
Diplomacy was really boring. Yes it was my first game and I made idiot errors, but I feel like this game is made for people who enjoy bird watching, geography and reading judicial reports from Ancient Rome. Did anyone even talk to each other a lot?

Yeah, pretty much. But I think the problem was that we had just never done this before and didnt really do it right (the game went on waaaayyyy too long, what little diplomacy that was conducted was done by PM leaving the thread as a barren wasteland).

If Umby wants to run another game and if people want to play I think we can try to hash out some changes to make the game more fun and to make the game be played in such a way that it's more entertaining (for players and spectators). It's worth a shot, right?

shivam
02-15-2011, 12:57 AM
all i know is that turkey promised to help me out, and instead ass raped me.

Meditative_Zebra
02-15-2011, 01:07 AM
Epiteth (France) tried to lure me into an alliance (that I suggested), but since I knew he had nothing to gain from it I never followed through.

Oh, another thing that I think would be helpful is if we referred to the players by name, rather than just the name of the country their playing. We could totally steal the flag icons from Wikipedia's WWI page.

Britain http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
France http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
Germany http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg.png
Italy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Flag_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29_crowned.svg/22px-Flag_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29_crowned.svg.png
Austria-Hungary http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg/22px-Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg.png
Russia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Russia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png
Turkey http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ottoman_Flag.svg/22px-Ottoman_Flag.svg.png

Except, of course, we'd use the players name accompanied by the flag. I dunno about you guys but half the time I forget which players were even playing as which nations.

EDIT:
there certainly was a lot of talk between me, germany, turkey, and austria.

Pretty much all of my communications were with you and Austria until near the end of the game.

EDIT EDIT:
I kinda think a game of diplomacy on the boards should have a one month time limit. Umby, Red Hedgehog, is that enough time for a game to be completed?

Umby
02-15-2011, 02:10 PM
If we worked towards one day turns, then yes. Otherwise, it wouldn't get done. If people are willing to be committed enough towards getting orders in each day, I'm willing to run a one day game.

And you know what? If we get enough people, we'll live game it up with ten minute turns over here (www.webdiplomacy.net). That'll get your heart racing!

Epithet
02-15-2011, 04:12 PM
Epiteth (France) tried to lure me into an alliance (that I suggested), but since I knew he had nothing to gain from it I never followed through.

I was actually being serious about that since I was already worried about Turkey, and I was planning to hold to the alliance for a while if it worked out. I can definitely see why you thought it was just a trick, and it was probably super dumb of me to even suggest it, though my biggest mistake was attacking you again after we started talking about an alliance. Destil didn't respond to my PM about the triple alliance idea, so I figured he was just going to keep attacking. I am dumb!

Destil
02-15-2011, 04:28 PM
Wait, didn't you make me an offer to backstab France and team up on the same turn?

Honestly, my biggest mistake was not getting a plan in place for a turn with Epiteth before backstabbing him. I couldn't move my fleet out of the channel without tipping my hand (and supporting North Sea and Belgium was always worthwhile) a turn early, but knowing that he was planning on doing X for a turn would have made getting one of his SC's a lot easier (I really needed to keep him from building more fleets the year following the backstab).

Meditative_Zebra
02-15-2011, 04:36 PM
Wait, didn't you make me an offer to backstab France and team up on the same turn?

I had to get one of you guys off my back.

Ereror
02-15-2011, 05:10 PM
I think the biggest reason I was able to grow so much was because no one put any pressure on me whatsoever until I had basically swallowed Russia, at which point it was too late. I actually did most of my turns under the assumption that Shivam would make the moves that would most screw me up, which hampered my expansion a little.

shivam
02-15-2011, 05:12 PM
my mistake was ignoring my southern flank and trying to expand in too many directions at once. i didn't understand how resupply worked in the early game, and if i were to play again, i'd be way way more cautious with where and how i choose to expand.

Epithet
02-15-2011, 07:56 PM
Honestly, my biggest mistake was not getting a plan in place for a turn with Epiteth before backstabbing him.

I had a feeling a backstab was coming, so I decided to start focusing on fleet construction. I didn't want to build in Brest, though, since that would make it seem that I was backstabbing you, and a predictable attack like that wouldn't work too well. I kinda feel like moving my fleet out of Brest was another mistake, since I changed my mind about building there, and it was really inviting a backstab. On the other hand, having a fleet in the Mid Atlantic would handily protect my Iberian SCs, so maybe it was for the best.

Umby
02-15-2011, 08:07 PM
my mistake was ignoring my southern flank and trying to expand in too many directions at once. i didn't understand how resupply worked in the early game, and if i were to play again, i'd be way way more cautious with where and how i choose to expand.

Your plan was called the Octopus, in a sense. There are quite a few ways to open with Russia, because Russia has 4 units. And in my experience, if a noobie plays Russia, they're not going to do too well. For what it's worth, you did a good job where you were.

And on the other side of the spectrum, you have France, who is the most likely to get a +3 on the first turn and more commonly a +2. Statistically, Austria is the country with the least wins, and France with the most. Admittedly, I've only ever won as Britain, Turkey, and Austria, but Britain was more of a midgame draw, and Austria was when Russia was a noob, and I already told you how their games go.

Red Hedgehog
02-15-2011, 08:28 PM
To do a game in a month would be tough. Diplomacy takes 4-7 hours to play in real life and that's with 10 minute turns. So a short game could be done in a month if you had one day turns.

I've only played IRL and using a play by e-mail server.

Advantages to real life:
You get to see who is talking to who, even though you don't know what they are saying.
There's a nice timer / someone yelling so you know when to get orders in.

Advantages to play by e-mail:
All conversations archived and visible after the game
Easy to put in early "provisional" orders so you don't miss the deadline and modify them up until the deadline.
Immediate feedback if any of your orders are invalid.
Reminders for when to get orders in.

Suggestions for how to get any of these into a play by forum game would be nice. One idea might be to have multiple moderators to ensure reminders of when orders are due / validate orders.

Umby
02-18-2011, 03:57 PM
I'm sorry I've been taking so long to do an analysis, but I have been really busy these past few days, and even tomorrow. I may get some of it started tonight, and perhaps tomorrow night. When we're done analyzing, we'll start taking players for the next game (or games, if need be).

Umby
03-10-2011, 12:03 PM
Analysis should be done by the end of this weekend, and the signups to the next game that will start when Mafia 10 is done shall start when the writeup is posted.

Sorry for the huge delay in everything, life has been busy.

Meditative_Zebra
03-14-2011, 03:46 PM
It's cool. I'll be looking forward to the post-game dissection. (But don't break your back on my account!)

Umby
03-28-2011, 07:46 PM
Diplomacy the First: A Turkish Victory, and an Adventure for All

First of all, I would like to congratulate all of you who played in their first Diplomacy game ever when I threw you in like that (on purpose). It takes guts to feel out a new game like Diplomacy without much but a rule book and an incompetent GM. And as a result, there are a few things that I and my friend went over in the game as just basic things that need to be reviewed.

First off, Italy made a huge blunder, and again I blame it to throwing all of you to the sharks. You never, ever, all hold. Every unit has a purpose at every turn, and the only reason why a unit should hold is if it needed to protect a space for a turn and had nothing it could support.

President Eden, a not quite yet member of this very forum, chats with me to talk about Belgium, which is a very pivotal supply center this game, as well as the implications of the all hold, and even basic alliance making.

"President Eden:
Belgium, 1901: not very well-played by all parties.

England shouldn't have opened to the Channel if he did not intend to support himself into Belgium. They should have opened north (NWS/NTH) and convoyed the army in. The army is better in Belgium than the fleet. Why? The fleet in Belgium can only move to Holland, Picardy, North Sea, or English Channel. But the allies already own NTH/ENG/Pic, so it only allows them to attack Holland. The army, meanwhile, can attack Pic, Bur, Ruh, or Hol.

Ruhr gives them a lot of help in attacking Germany, and an army in Holland is better than a fleet for the same reason -- better inland pressure.

Now, on the German side - don't open to Holland!

A few reasons:
(1) opening to Denmark is the only way Germany can guarantee capturing two neutral centers in 1901, because Germany can support itself into Holland to stop an English bounce. It can't support itself into Denmark. And it can't guarantee Belgium even if it opens to Holland anyway.

(2) Getting three builds as anyone makes you a big target. The target gets even bigger when you have the most neighbors in the game. If you're skilled and your competition is not, you can get away with it. If you're on par with your competition, you're asking for trouble.

And, of course

(3) You lose the ability to bounce Sweden, which means if Russia attacks you in S01 you have no recourse. Granted, Russia rarely goes straight for Germany and even more rarely profits from an early attack on Germany...but why not leave yourself the safeguard?

So, flashpoint 1 in 1901 was Belgium.

Talking about Alliances:

Umby: Ok, talk about alliance making and the triplets.

President Eden: Very well. Except triplet theory is really outdated...

Umby: And the stupidity of an all hold. ;P

President Eden: :P
Well.

Basically, the idea behind the triplets is that there are two primary triangles: the Western Triangle and the Balkan Triangle (EFG and TRA). These three usually duke it out for the most hotly-contested centers on the board: Low Countries and Balkans. But truthfully, there's a third triangle that's at least as important: the Scandinavian Triangle (ERG). And Italy, while very rarely directly involved in the Balkans early and never involved in the Low Countries early, is close enough to France, Austria, and Turkey that it can disrupt affairs in either triangle.

So what you really have is more of a Western quintuplet (EFGRI) and Eastern quadruplet (TRAI) that should be considered.

Umby: The country it is attacking is automatically interrupted.

President Eden: Right.

Umby: Of course, Austria is screwed if Italy goes after it and Russia attacks on the other side.

President Eden: Austria is generally screwed if Italy attacks, regardless.

Umby: Likewise, Turkey is screwed if Austria and it work together.

President Eden: This is true, but it's not always in Italy's best interests to attack. Anyway, that's kind of tangential.

Talking about Belgium

Handling Belgium -- and handling by extension all the other centers, but especially Belgium -- requires careful thought to the various powers' growth.

There are a total of 34 centers, divisible among seven players. If we assume no warfare among the players yet (as in, switching of home centers), this means the average power should have about five centers apiece. So don't shoot for 3 neutrals. Two is fine. And consider carefully when you, say, hand out Belgium.

By this logic, France takes Iberia and waits for a target. It has a third unit and can therefore use it to influence affairs how it wishes. Germany can get Holland and Denmark guaranteed, but would tie up all three units. Generally, though, it doesn't have to tie up two units to secure Holland, so it also has a unit with which to influence Belgium. England of course wants Belgium to get its second build, and would probably ally with whomever.

Germany should not have tried to force Belgium.

He had Denmark and Holland, but instead of using Belgium as a carrot, he tried to eat it himself. That's one of the few surefire ways that Germany ends up facing an EF alliance. Think about it -- if Germany wanted Belgium, why not offer an alliance to the power which gives it Belgium? You still get the support, but without tying up one of your own units AND with the help of an ally. England and France can do one of three things:
(1) accept the offer;
(2) reject the offer and demand support in kind;
(3) reject the offer and not demand support.

If (1) happens -- and of course if they don't stab -- then Germany is golden, three builds with an ally. If (2) happens, compare the results. If they're both demanding Belgium... suddenly you're in a position to pick your ally! If only one is, and the other isn't? Then the other is doing either (1) or (3). If it's (1), your alliance is set.

So all that's left is (3). If they reject the offer but also don't want support, then odds are they're helping the other in. Which means you've got some work to do diplomatically. Say that France offered England Belgium. Germany should then go to England and offer the same thing. And why not? You can't stop them from taking it. If Germany offers England the same thing France is offering, the basis for that alliance is gone and mistrust is sewn.

Consider: What would France think if he saw England getting support to Belgium from Germany? Obviously, that England was double-dealing. And then France might come to Germany asking for an alliance against England. Or maybe England decides that Germany is a better strategic fit than France, or diplomatic fit, or whatever. Point is, alliance is interfered with.

This is far better than the move to Holland. Moving to Holland only allows you to ensure no one gets the center and gives EF no reason to reconsider their course of action. Though it could be argued that the move to Holland would allow Germany to provide two supports.

And that actually has potential (Say, use the two units on Belgium to support England AND France in. They'll be mad at you but more mad at each other for double-crossing!).

This applies basically anywhere a center is in conflict.

Rumania and Greece are the other two most likely examples of conflict. Sweden is a unique case because it's decidedly 1-on-1, Germany and Russia. There Germany has all the deciding power and should take full advantage of it.

So that's Belgium, and neutral centers in general.

Alliance-building is pretty closely related considering how many alliances start over partition of neutral centers. The cardinal rule of alliances: Make yourself a more useful ally than enemy. Sounds obvious, but the implications are many.

This means you have to ensure that you can help a potential ally profit considerably from a potential enemy while still maintaining your own sovereignty and growth.

After all, say you decide to attack Germany as France with England. If you give him everything but Munich, you're being a more useful ally than enemy until England realizes he's double your size and can swallow you whole. THEN you're a useful enemy *wink*.

Turkey's Success and Italy's Fall: Connected?

Umby: Mhrm. Well, we've gone over alliances. Now, chances are we need to show how Turkey went rampant over the whole board

President Eden: Indeed we do.

Umby: And show why Russia and Austria died in a fire really quickly and to tell everyone that doing an ordered all hold is an idiotic move (or nonmove). Thus how Italy died.

President Eden: Well, yeah. The story of Turkey's dominance and the story of Italy's lack thereof are two sides to the same coin. Actually, I'm not really sure what happened the first turn. Austria's play doesn't make sense to me. Unless Austria knew that Italy was ordering an all-hold. If so, then Italy's all-hold was critical. Because Austria attacked expecting a quick war, turning away from the Balkans in the process.

Umby: Austria didn't know, I don't think.

President Eden: Then Austria's play was just as foolish as Italy's. If Italy is weak, as here, then Austria absolutely cannot afford to turn its back to Russia and Turkey. The "quick gains" from Italy are fool's gold. Venice falls quickly, perhaps, but it takes everything to hold Venice and far too long to make. Austria can make up for Venice by seizing Greece, and then be turned toward the real threat -- players who are actually moving.

Austria has two main openings -- the Balkan Gambit and the Hedgehog. The Balkan Gambit would have been ideal because Italy was passive and peaceful. When you don't know, you use the Hedgehog.

The Gambit sends:
F Tri -> Alb
A Bud -> Ser

so that Serbia can support Trieste to Greece. A Vie usually goes to Galicia but, in the event of a deal with Russia, can go to Tyrolia, Trieste or even Budapest.

The other one, the Hedgehog, is used when Austria is unsure of Russia and Italy. Same as above, except Tri -> Ven. This stops most Italian attacks in their tracks and doesn't threaten Italy if told in advance. In any case, Austria should never open with an attack on Italy.

Attacking in 1902, 1903, or later is fine, after Austria is sure of an ally in Russia or Turkey and has outgained Italy (usually Austria has 5 SCs after 1901, Italy 4). But when things are uncertain Austria should never give Russia and Turkey a reason to ally.

That said: the Juggernaut (Russia and Turkey) alliance probably would have succeeded regardless. It was formed in S01 and was clearly ready to kick some ass. However, some of the execution was flawed. For example, Russia should never send the fleet to Rumania in a Juggernaut. If a bounce isn't arranged, the fleet should hold in Sevastopol. The reason is simple: what good can a fleet in Rumania do against Austria? Answer: none at all.

Meanwhile, if Russia holds in Sevastopol and then moves an army south to Ukraine, a supported move into Rumania can place an army there, which can actually help against Austria.

In fact I would propose that the default assumption should be for Russia to use an army there; it can at least help in Bulgaria if Russia goes after Turkey, but F Rum is useless against Austria.

I would also have advised Russia to move to Galicia and Ukraine. The shot at one of Austria's centers was there, and a convoy to Sweden doesn't really do any good.

Of course, the gig was up by A01 anyway: Turkey set up to take the Black Sea and moved into Armenia.

All of that said, the blame for this beyond A01 goes to Russia, Austria, and Italy. Russia got stabbed by Turkey, should have read the builds and seen that Turkey was NOT making peace, and fought Turkey. Fleet Sevastopol/army Moscow was the right build to use. But Russia... now attacks Austria, and pisses off both southern powers.

Oh, and also attacked Germany. That one was more forgivable -- in fact, was forgivable -- because of the EF alliance. But he should not have allowed Turkey to eviscerate him. Bad play. (editor's note: President Eden is making references to bad play when talking about experienced players, don't feel discouraged shivam.)

Turkey plays his (very favorable) hand right. Austria got tied up with Italy and Russia inexplicably responded to Turkey's attack (usually a smart play when AI are fighting) by... attacking Austria and leaving his front against Turkey wide open.

Basically, Italian incompetence, a bad opening decision by Austria and Russian incompetence paved the road for a competent Turkey to dominate the board.

Now, what could have been done differently? Well, for one, Russia and Austria could have allied against Turkey. Turkey would probably ultimately fall to AR, but that takes a long time.

There is one big wildcard missing -- Italy.

Italy very rarely can kill anyone on its own, but even its usually-meager forces often end up being the straw that breaks an overburdened camel's back.

France can barely withstand EG, Austria RT, Turkey AR. They all would fall to them eventually, but would take time. If Italy attacks as well, though, all of them collapse. Very quickly. So what if Italy attacks Turkey?

There's one well-known way: The Lepanto opening, named for the real-life battle. In it, Italy moves Venice how it pleases, moves Rome to a space bordering the Ionian Sea, and Naples to the Ionian Sea. In the autumn, it convoys the army bordering the Ionian to Tunisia with its fleet. Winter, build fleet Naples.

Then, the crucial turn, S02.
F Nap -> ION
F ION -> EMS
A Tun H
A formerly-in-Venice does whatever

In the fall, the Tunisian army is convoyed to Syria or, if the Italian is feeling particularly ballsy, Smyrna. Either way, the point is to get the second Italian army -- which otherwise usually wastes away on defense -- and hurls it right at Turkey's underbelly. Turkey usually collapses pretty quickly and Italy normally gets Smyrna and another center from it.

The disadvantage is that you commit basically all your troops to Turkey without a gain until 1903 or later; France might be tempted to hit the Mediterranean or Austria might stab. It should only be used with a firm Austrian alliance and a neutral France, preferably one tied up in the north. And Turkey usually sees it coming with the autumn convoy to Tunisia. A Turkish build of F Smy can usually ruin this plan. But if Italy wants to attack Turkey, this is the way to do it.

Umby: Mhm. How could we end this, then...?

President Eden: For more reading: Diplomacy-Archive (http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/resources/strategy.htm). You're welcome.

I'll do Q&A. Just introduce me as: President Eden (http://webdiplomacy.net/profile.php?userID=25958). They'll see the value in it. ;P "

And with that, the second game's spots are open! Please sign up within the first seven to be in the first game, and the first fourteen to be within the second game if that happens.

You may also ask questions about all that strategy!

Game 2 Signups!
1. Ereror
2. Destil
3. President Eden
4. Umby
5. Red Hedgehog
6. Karzac
7. OPEN

I'd like to get enough new people to fill in for myself, Red Hedgehog, and President Eden, but if needed we'll play and have a grand ole time.

Destil
03-28-2011, 08:44 PM
I'll go again unless you get 7 more newbies. Is there any possibility of a setup where we can see all the private messages after the game (i.e. have something else hold onto them, rather than digging through our PMs?)

Umby
03-28-2011, 08:48 PM
I believe we should all use Google Wave, and then make them public after the game. Sounds good?

Ereror
03-28-2011, 09:27 PM
I'll also play again if there aren't enough people.

I think Turkey seems like one of the easiest places to start on the board for new people, because there really aren't all that many decisions to make early on. Plus it seems really hard to get killed. For example, Russia can end up in conflict with basically anyone early on other than France or Italy, and has to pick its battles, and Austria has to worry about not dieing really fast to all 3 people surrounding it. With Turkey, it seems relatively safe, and your options are fairly limited to either stabbing Russia or attacking Austria.

Umby
03-28-2011, 09:42 PM
Yeah, Turkey is easier in the beginning, but once Austria and Italy catch whiff of Turkey becoming too powerful, a Lepanto starts to form. Turkey also is extremely vulnerable to a dedicated attack by Russia and Austria, and so Turkey becomes more of a hard country to work with when dealing with more experienced players.

I know there are some of you in the woodworks. Don't be scared to try out a game!

Meditative_Zebra
03-28-2011, 10:17 PM
Maybe it was just because I'm a noob, but playing as Germany seems brutal.

Thanks for the post-game Umby, Pres. Eden. (I always wanted a critique from Malcolm McDowell!) I still think that one of the biggest problems with our game was that we didn't have something forcing us to actually conduct diplomacy and that the game itself was drawn out for so long that we all lost focus.

I'm probably not going to be able to play in the next Diplomacy game, but I'd be happy to try and chip in and contribute to making the next game be structured better.

EDIT: Damn! President Eden is a brutal machine when it comes to playing diplomacy. I think his advice might be a bit too sophisticated for us neophytes.

Umby
03-29-2011, 02:31 PM
Maybe it was just because I'm a noob, but playing as Germany seems brutal.

In my first game I was Germany too, and I was crushed. Usually countries that have a lot of diploming aren't very good as newbie countries (i.e. Germany, Austria, Russia).

I still think that one of the biggest problems with our game was that we didn't have something forcing us to actually conduct diplomacy and that the game itself was drawn out for so long that we all lost focus.

Part of that is learning how to play, but I'll run a tighter schedule this next game. And I'd be honored to have your help.

EDIT: Damn! President Eden is a brutal machine when it comes to playing diplomacy. I think his advice might be a bit too sophisticated for us neophytes.

Well, I told him to talk about more general things, but he kind of got specific at some points. But the examples he uses are good ones, and those specific "openings" he mentioned are always good to look at as possible templates for your own opening moves.

shivam
03-29-2011, 03:37 PM
i'm afraid i just don't see where the fun part of this is.

Umby
03-29-2011, 05:55 PM
Outwitting your enemy? Backstabbing your ally so well that you become a superpower at that point in the game? Feeling strategically better than everyone else?

To me, that is fun. If it isn't fun for you, I'm sorry, then stay out of the thread and don't discourage those who wish to play.

shivam
03-29-2011, 06:00 PM
oh, no, that's not my intention at all. i'm gonna watch the next game very closely to learn what i did wrong. i just can't see myself trying to play again. i'm too honest and trusting for this game =(

please, everyone who wishes to play, continue to do so!

Umby
03-29-2011, 06:17 PM
Ok, that's good! You learn to be a conniving little bastard after a while. :cool:

I think you'd be fine to play another game, shivam. Russia is a hard country to play (I haven't been able to play a good Russia in a game yet!) and you just made some newbie mistakes. I hope you come back and play!

Red Hedgehog
03-29-2011, 06:32 PM
On the subway today, I saw a woman intently studying a Diplomacy map. It gave me the itch. If you want someone experienced in the game, to at least give the newer players a sense of how much you should be talking (and probably have a big target on my back) then I'd love to play. If not, I'd be happy to help out/take over GMing. I think either using a server or something like Wave so that people can easily put in preliminary orders and change them up to the deadline and get email warnings when the deadline is approaching would definitely be a good call. And I won't be going away for 10 days at the start of this game, so at least I should be able to do turn by turn third party analysis.

Eden
03-29-2011, 06:36 PM
Heh. Big flashy numbers in a profile that don't really mean too much have their uses. ;)

Greetings, everyone. President Eden here, but feel free to call me Pres, Eden, Pres Eden, Your Manly Overlordness... or just Simon. Any of them work.

As Umby already said, I'm around if anyone wants advice. I tried to keep it generalized in there, but I feel like a lot of the 'traditional' keep-it-simple advice is fundamentally flawed in a lot of ways and discourages new players' development of long-term strategy, so I got a little more complicated in areas to try to stay away from those generalizations.

I don't bite (too much), so fire away.

Umby
03-29-2011, 06:49 PM
Admittedly, if we can start getting more of a veteran-y game going so that newbies get a feel of how to play, I'd be more than willing to GM and play. Of course, that would include Destil and Ereror and whoever else from the first game feels like playing, but I'd think that either Red Hedgehog or President Eden would win. But, it would help to show a "standard" Diplomacy game under a smaller time limit than last time.

Who would be up for that?

Eden
03-29-2011, 06:53 PM
It's hard to win this game, I wouldn't make any promises.

Karzac
03-29-2011, 07:18 PM
Okay, I'm down to play.

Meditative_Zebra
03-29-2011, 08:17 PM
Part of that is learning how to play, but I'll run a tighter schedule this next game. And I'd be honored to have your help

*Doffs hat* I'd be happy to chip in where I can. However, any suggestions that I should GM would be foolish, particularly given how often I was the one late with my orders in our first game.

I still think that keeping the turns shorter would help keep the game more focused. I threw out this idea before:

One of the things that I felt killed momentum in the game was the fact that we had so long in between moves. I think it would help if we had fixed days of the week when turns would occur. Perhaps something like this.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o23/meditative_zebra/Talking%20Time/Dipolmacy_Schedule.jpg
[All deadlines would be 10pm PST, at the GM's discretion.]

Also, having fixed days when orders are due would help to make sure that everybody is on the same page knowing when their orders are due.

I don't remember whether you guys said this sort of a schedule would be workable or not. Whaddaya think?

My other idea was to use flags when naming players so that we can have some way to help remember who is playing as which country.


Britain http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
France http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Flag_of_France.svg/22px-Flag_of_France.svg.png
Germany http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg/22px-Flag_of_the_German_Empire.svg.png
Italy http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Flag_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29_crowned.svg/22px-Flag_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29_crowned.svg.png
Austria-Hungary http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg/22px-Flag_of_Austria-Hungary_1869-1918.svg.png
Russia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Flag_of_Russia.svg/22px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png
Turkey http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Ottoman_Flag.svg/22px-Ottoman_Flag.svg.png

Except, of course, we'd use the players name accompanied by the flag. I dunno about you guys but half the time I forget which players were even playing as which nations.

I had also thrown out the idea that most of the diplomacy be conducted on the boards with a limited number of messages that are 'secret' sent to other players via the GM. I think that this would be good in helping keep people more engaged in conducting diplomacy (and also make it more entertaining for those watching from the gallery) but I also acknowledge that this might be a fairly convoluted way to do this.

I don't know much about Google Wave. How would such a thing work?

Umby
03-29-2011, 08:40 PM
Google Wave works as almost a chat application, except it updates text real time and works more like a message board than anything else. You'd have to sign up to use it using a google account (such as a Gmail account), or if you're lacking that, just a new account altogether. I used Wave when I was in Mafia game 7, and I found it really useful.

Your schedule and ideas are duly noted, as well.

Dizzy
03-29-2011, 08:41 PM
I'd rather play this offline. It was so boring I intentionally committed suicide.

Umby
03-29-2011, 08:48 PM
Heh, if we all were invited to shivam's party (and incidentally somehow I'd just randomly appear there) I'd totally do it. But I understand if the slow pace wasn't your thing. I think once we get a good following we'll start playing via Webdiplomacy, which has a setting for a turn per day if we wanted to play like that, or a more 10 minute turn game (which is good for fast paced games).

To draw attention to this, I'll repost this (it's also right after the writeup):
Game 2 Signups!
1. Ereror
2. Destil
3. President Eden
4. Umby
5. Red Hedgehog
6. Karzac
7. OPEN

I'd like to get enough new people to fill in for myself, Red Hedgehog, and President Eden, but if needed we'll play and have a grand ole time! (whoops)

Karzac
03-29-2011, 08:56 PM
Grand Ole Tim sounds like a character in a Dickens novel.

Eden
03-29-2011, 09:03 PM
That timetable should be fine. I like it a lot, actually. The flags... I'll be passing on them, I can generally keep it together who's who and copy-pasting a bunch of flags would be a bit tedious.

Meditative_Zebra
03-29-2011, 09:06 PM
My idea for the flags was really only for the GMs updates. I know that they would have helped me (since I'm a noob).

Eden
03-30-2011, 12:46 AM
Oh... gotcha. Yeah, that's understandable. Make it happen, Umby! :P

If nothing else please use that timetable. It's perfect.

Karzac
03-30-2011, 01:50 PM
Why don't you just colour code the names of players to match the colours on the map?

Umby
04-02-2011, 11:48 AM
*bump*

I'm waiting for one more person to join, and then I can perhaps get a game started. PLEASE BE THAT ONE PERSON.

Heron
04-08-2011, 10:41 PM
I've never played Diplomacy before but I've always wanted to try it after finding it amongst my other boardgames so long ago. I did read a Diplomacy game elsewhere and it really seemed quite fun and enjoyable. It does look a bit daunting for a first time player though. Playing with other new people would be best I think. Perhaps having advisors to give some good, and possibly some bad, advice might have helped the first game. Also, the thread was a bit empty beyond the move updates. Some public bantering and politicking might have helped things a bit, or at least be amusing in a Mafia sort of way :D

Eden
04-17-2011, 06:08 PM
Psst. That looks like a seventh person to me...!

Umby
04-17-2011, 07:22 PM
WHOA

Well, hm. I'm in a predicament. Send new people out to die, or try to look for more? WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

Meditative_Zebra
04-17-2011, 07:22 PM
Send them to their deaths, Umby!

Ereror
04-17-2011, 07:41 PM
I am prepared to be crushed by people that have played more than one game against people that aren't new to the game!

Eden
04-19-2011, 09:16 PM
Well, there you have it.

Umby
04-20-2011, 03:17 PM
All right, I'll start when all players who have a spot report for duty. People in bold have confirmed their place.

1. Umby (I'm here!)
2. President Eden
3. Ereror
4. Destil
5. Red Hedgehog
6. Karzac
7. Heron

I'll be sending out PMs to all those involved, so you guys better sign up quickly!

Karzac
04-20-2011, 03:18 PM
I'm in.

Destil
04-20-2011, 04:36 PM
Are we doing anything different this game i.e. communicating via wave or QT or something? I know encouraging diplomacy was one of the goals...

Also, ready.

Ereror
04-20-2011, 05:44 PM
Ready.

Also, uh, who do we send our orders to now?

Umby
04-20-2011, 06:23 PM
We shall be using Wave, and I'll get to those details after school ends on Thursday (and thus, my Spring Break starts!).

I'm sorry on the lack of detail, but I'm almost at the light at the end of the tunnel.

Eden
04-20-2011, 07:23 PM
I still don't get using Wave. I have used it before... it's a group chat thing. What exactly are we doing with this?

Also, reporting for duty hurr durr

Heron
04-20-2011, 10:25 PM
Psst. That looks like a seventh person to me...!

[Speech, 67%] You can't just decide to take over, and force everyone to follow you.

Let's talk about your plan for the purifier game.

Why do you want my help? Why not have Ovid Umby help you?

I'll be on my way then.

Hrmm, what to say...

Red Hedgehog
04-21-2011, 01:52 PM
i'm still in. Haven't played Diplomacy in... seven years. Time to shake off the rust.

Umby
04-21-2011, 02:14 PM
All right, it appears that everyone is up and ready for duty. I'd like to hear from Meditative Zebra if he'd like to help run the game. As for now, here are the propositions on how I'd run it.

1. I'd GM the game, and continue to do resolutions in the way I did it last game. You'd send orders to me through PMs.
2. There will be deadlines, and although I may allow for a mistake or two, after the determined number I will not allow it.
3. Chatting between countries will be done through Wave. I fully expect all countries to have a chat running between them, although I doubt that all of them will be used every turn. This is to encourage talking and avoid what happened last games.

Comments, concerns? I'll start the game tomorrow or Saturday if everyone is happy and content with this.

Meditative_Zebra
04-21-2011, 02:26 PM
I can chip in.

[Speech, 67%] You can't just decide to take over, and force everyone to follow you.

Let's talk about your plan for the purifier game.

Why do you want my help? Why not have Ovid Umby help you?

I'll be on my way then.

Hrmm, what to say...

Ha! Get that speech skill a little higher, Heron, and you can win this thing without striking a blow!

Umby
04-21-2011, 02:37 PM
All right, while I'm at it, let's draw some countries, eh?

1. Umby - Russia
2. President Eden - Britain
3. Ereror - Turkey
4. Destil - France
5. Red Hedgehog - Austria
6. Karzac - Italy
7. Heron - Germany

Just our luck, the winner of the first game is the same country he was last time! But can we stop him this time? THE EPIC BEGINNING IS FRIDAY, FRIDAY, GOTTA DIPLOME ON FRIDAY (which is when the thread for the game will go up). Can I collect your Wave addresses (or create one so I can give it out) and send them in a PM so we can all start our Diploming?

And Zebra, what was the schedule you had planned?

Karzac
04-21-2011, 04:11 PM
Well, since I created it expressly for this game, my Wave username is Karzac.Italy.

Ereror
04-21-2011, 07:08 PM
Ereror, ereror(at)googlewave.com.

Red Hedgehog
04-21-2011, 07:09 PM
Ich bin ein redhedgehog. (Oh wait, I'm Austria. I guess I will just talk like the former governor of California all game).

-- Archduke Ahnold

Eden
04-21-2011, 08:37 PM
asdfasdf why my least favorite country asdfasdf

scasse2@tigers.lsu.edu is my email address, and last I checked what I also use for Wave. (It's been a while. lol.)

Meditative_Zebra
04-21-2011, 11:26 PM
And Zebra, what was the schedule you had planned?

Here it is (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvIKEcZBADl7dFlzcXBiRmZzVWU1XzJQUHk0NTJva 0E&hl=en&authkey=CMe-4YcP)! [Link goes to google doc]

http://i.imgur.com/6GDyG.png

and on and on and on as needed...

With this schedule each year will be played over one week. Everyone please make sure that this schedule will work for you, i.e. make sure that the due days aren't a day where you have an obligation that makes you unavailable. (If so you might suggest to Umby to start the game on a different day of the week.)

Eden
04-22-2011, 12:19 PM
The phase starts today, right?

Destil
04-22-2011, 12:43 PM
destil (dot) shadesk (at) gmail (dot) com

Umby
04-22-2011, 01:12 PM
The phase starts today, right?

I'll put the thread up later this afternoon. As for now, just add everyone on Google Wave.

Red Hedgehog
04-22-2011, 03:22 PM
scasse2@tigers.lsu.edu is my email address, and last I checked what I also use for Wave. (It's been a while. lol.)

Wave tells me "User does not have a google wave account" with that email.

Eden
04-22-2011, 05:05 PM
that's... odd. I'll add all of you guys, because thus far I haven't encountered any trouble with it adding people.

Umby
04-22-2011, 05:42 PM
Simon, that's because your googlewave account is:

scottpilgrim05@googlewave.com

Hurr durr. AND ALSO, Karzac seems to be out of commission until Monday. Should we wait for Monday to start?

Ereror
04-22-2011, 05:47 PM
Finding another person will probably take longer than until Monday, so we may as well wait...

Meditative_Zebra
04-22-2011, 05:56 PM
AND ALSO, Karzac seems to be out of commission until Monday. Should we wait for Monday to start?

Here's the schedule to reflect a Monday start (and the google doc (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AvIKEcZBADl7dFlzcXBiRmZzVWU1XzJQUHk0NTJva 0E&hl=en&authkey=CMe-4YcP) is updated, too)

http://i.imgur.com/vtLVV.png

Heron
04-22-2011, 06:02 PM
Ha! Get that speech skill a little higher, Heron, and you can win this thing without striking a blow!

I would add more to speech but I'm too busy being a crit-stacking evil bastard (http://www.viddler.com/explore/SpoilerWarning/videos/46/317.729/) (go to 5:10)

Schedule

That looks pretty good to me. I wasn't sure about being in the game since the semester is ending soon but I think I can do it.

Googlewave is new and weird to me so I'm not confident using it, or how to even use it, but I'll try. I'm trying it right now but it's too obtuse for me. I don't understand why a new wave is made just for looking into my own profile and such.

I'm joacheim at googlewave dot com

Help would be much appreciated.

shivam
04-22-2011, 06:25 PM
give em hell, russia.

Umby
04-23-2011, 11:17 AM
Trust me, I'm trying. We'll see, I'm not so good at Russia.

Karzac
04-23-2011, 07:41 PM
Shit, sorry about that guys. I got confused about when we were starting. So it's Monday now? Okay. Please don't kill me.

Umby
07-13-2011, 07:33 AM
I want to expand from this game into the possibility of running some live games online sometime before the summer goes out. What times and dates would people be free over the next two weeks? Typically, I play four hour games (ten minutes per turn) at night, but I am up for most times of the day.

And new people can sign up for this.