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VorpalEdge
08-09-2011, 12:49 AM
THE SITUATION THUS FAR

Congratulations, you are stuck in the Vortex World with 25 other people, and the only way out is to play God and remake the world to your satisfaction. The technical details are not important; you can work those out once everyone who disagrees with you has been brutally murdered. The rules are as follows:

*Players will be divided into one of at least three alignments: Neutral, Law, or Chaos. Neutral players will comprise the majority of the game, and win when every alignment that opposes them has been wiped out. Law and Chaos win when their respective faction has control of the lynch (when they make up 50% or more of the remaining players) and there are no powers remaining that could shake their hold. There may be other factions not detailed here.

*In a marked change from previous games, while the exact method by which the factions decide their nightkill targets is unknown to you, an individual member must perform the kill. The kill is submitted in the same way as other night abilities, and can be affected by more skills than in previous games.

*The game will be divided into day and night. There's no sun or moon anymore; just the eternally streaming light of Kagutsuchi, but you keep the terms around out of habit. You may talk freely in this thread during the day, and collectively you and your companions will vote on someone to lynch.

*To vote for someone, present it in bold: I accuse Trumpeter. Votes may be changed at any time. If you wish to retract your accusation entirely, you may unvote. Use bold only for voting or unvoting. When a player is lynched or otherwise killed, their demon identity and alignment will be revealed.

*When the deadline passes or someone is lynched, day is over and night begins. While Kagutsuchi never stops shining, you're not yet 100% demon and still need rest. During the night, take a break and plan for the next day. After about 48 hours, night ends and a new day begins.

*The exact mechanic by which the game moves from day to night varies based on Kagutsuchi. Kagutsuchi's light has, shall we say, an effect on demons, and while it always shines, it varies considerably in brightness. Kagutsuchi has three phases: minimum (0/8), medium (4/8), and maximum (8/8). Kagutsuchi changes phase each daybreak, and will progress back and forth through the phases over the course of the game. These phases have the following effects:

* When Kagutsuchi is at minimum (0/8), your inhibitions are raised and you are considerably overcautious. Day ends after 96 hours. A player may be lynched when day ends only if a majority of players vote for him or her. Chaos powers are weakest during this time.
* When Kagutsuchi is at medium (4/8), your sanity is fully intact. Day ends after 72 hours. When day ends, whoever has the highest vote total against him or her is lynched.
* When Kagutsuchi is at maximum (8/8), aaaaOOOOOOOOOOfkjsdlwebeforeMAGATSUHIIIIIIIIeateat eatEAteaTEATTT72hr
* You may discover other effects as the game progresses.


Some additional points:

* Editing posts is forbidden. Everything you say will remain public forever.
* No posting or directly quoting private messages from the GM, real or fake. You may insinuate whatever you want, but you must paraphrase it.
* You must post a minimum of once per game day. Failure to do so will result in death. If you are going to be unable to post for an extended period of time, PM me and I will arrange your replacement.
* You may not talk about this game out-of-thread, period, unless you are specifically told you can. No pithy remarks in the general mafia thread, no aim or irc or anything else.
* Unfortunately, souls sucked into the Vortex World will be cut off from traditional forms of the afterlife for the duration of their stay. All players will be unable to access the champagne room or talk about the game out-of-thread until the game is over, even if they die. Once you're in, you're in. Similarly, anyone who does access the champagne room may not talk about the game outside its confines.




The Full Player List (9 remaining)
botticus
dtsund
dwolfe
Eirikr
Lakupo
Luana
McClain
pointzeroeight
Yimothy

Raven - lynched on Day 1. Alignment: Neutral
Destil - killed on Night 1. Alignment: Neutral
Egarwaen - killed on Night 1. Alignment: Neutral
widdershins - killed on Night 1. Alignment: Neutral
Guild - lynched on Day 2. Alignment: Lawful
Yimothy - killed on Night 2. Alignment: Neutral
poetfox - lynched on Day 3. Alignment: Neutral
Brickroad - lynched on Day 4. Alignment: Lawful
Alpha Werewolf - killed on Night 4. Alignment: Lawful
Nich - killed on Night 4. Alignment: Lawful
Solitayre - lynched on Day 5. Alignment: Neutral
WormRider - killed on Night 5. Alignment: Neutral
Brickroad - modkilled on Day 6 for being an idiot
Nodal - modkilled on Day 6 for being an idiot. Alignment: Neutral
Kylie - lynched on Day 6. Alignment: Chaotic
Knight[/strike - killed on Night 6. Alignment: Neutral
[strike]Dizzy - lynched on Day 7. Alignment: Chaotic
kaisel - killed on Night 7. Alignment: Neutral
breakman - killed on Night 7. Alignment: Chaotic



End of Day 1 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1123119#post1123119)
End of Day 2 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1128445#post1128445)
End of Day 3 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1133317#post1133317)
End of Day 4 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1135368#post1135368)
End of Day 5 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1138972#post1138972)
End of Day 6 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1143739#post1143739)
End of Day 7 (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1147770#post1147770)

other gm notes:
-some of you may have gotten duplicate role pms. that's because ss and i are exceptionally (non-)coordinated! only be worried if they differ.
-we intended to have a gm account, but last-minute shenanigans locked us out (did you know that, if you reset your email, you need an admin to reactivate it?). this account will be active by the end of the first day. you'll be sending your pms to it. if you need to send pms before then, send them to whoever sent you a role pm spineshark for now Trumpeter (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/private.php?do=newpm&u=90588).
-Guild, you may want to offer your spot to someone a bit further away from the time we send role pms out. Congratulations, you're still in the game. Sorry Kayma, maybe next time.
-If you're new to SMT and don't get many of the concepts, don't worry. The flavor will go into more and more detail about Law and Chaos and so on as the game progresses. We fully intend for people who haven't played SMT to enjoy the setting as much as possible.
-I think that's it? enjoy!

VorpalEdge
08-09-2011, 12:50 AM
Once everything stopped shaking, I -- and everyone else -- simply stood and stared. What else were we to do? Around us, a terminally brown landscape stretched, filled with shattered buildings standing testament to cataclysm. The entire city must have died. But speaking of dead people… what about the corpses? Where were the corpses? Millions of people had to have died, but the ruins had none, so far as I could see.

Eventually, a flock of birds took flight. "Birds!" someone shouted. And would you know it, we actually fuckin cheered. Apparently we weren't the only survivors. These birds, however, were really odd. They didn't fly like birds. The conviction was only reinforced when they turned on one of their own in flight and attacked it, swooping in and swarming it. We know it was attacked because we eventually saw it dropping out of the sky. And to stack on yet another absurdity, halfway through the fight a tornado formed -- which makes even less sense than everything that's happened. I have no idea why that blue sun is there, or why the world ended, but the basic laws of physics still seems to exist and I'm waving my arms right now, and I ain't making a tornado.

The point became moot when the birds noticed us. They drew nearer and paused for a moment. We heard cries of Magatsuhi, Magatsuhi drifting to us -- whatever that is -- and then they charged. Yeah, uh, none of us wanted to stick around. A couple seconds of desperate searching later, we realized that the little hospital behind us wasn't blasted out like everything else. We ran for it. A few seconds after the doors shut behind us, thumps rattled against it. We kept running.

Inside, once we recovered our breath and began scrounging for supplies (Japanese people do not loot), we found what happened to all the corpses. Apparently there are a bunch of little ghosts floating around. Half wouldn't talk to us, and cowered and cried. Most of the rest tried running, but they didn't seem to realize that they can't move, so they just pantomimed movement as we stood there cocking eyebrows. The one that did talk, though, didn't even seem to realize that she was dead. She didn't realize much of anything, really. But she did call us demons. And she was scared that we were going to eat her, even though she didn't realize that the world had ended and she was dead.

In the end, however, we had to concede that she had a point. As we were walking, this puny short girl screamed "I can't take it anymore!" and jumped on the back of a burly dude carrying a box of cans and a rice cooker. She jumped on him, and before he could resist she wrapped her limbs around his and held him tight. Her prize assured, she stretched her head out in front of him. Spurts of blood flew everywhere, covering the walls and ground, and we watched, in horror, as she bit out his neck and chowed down.

We've been running a lot. We think we're safe from her now, in another wing of the hospital, and we managed to get a bunch of canned food, but nobody's sitting within arm's reach of one another. I am wondering only one thing, and judging from the paranoid stares, everyone else is too.

Who's next?

-----------------------

The current phase of Kagutsuchi is: Medium (4/8)
Day ends at: August 12, 12:00 AM EST (a little less than 72 hours from now)

begin day 1!

Luana
08-09-2011, 12:55 AM
I just want to clarify here that while I'm playing, I will still be on limited internet! Why can't the subscribe function work, anyway :( I want mafia e-mailed to me!

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 01:01 AM
Fuck Day One.

I accuse McClain.

Pure cheeseburger vote.

Kylie
08-09-2011, 01:03 AM
I... I don't think those were birds. What WERE they?

McClain
08-09-2011, 01:03 AM
Did you guys hear that? It sounded like a tiny, insignificant voice. I almost thought it said my name. Must have just been the wind ...

Destil
08-09-2011, 01:16 AM
I... I don't think those were birds. What WERE they?

We'll never really know.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 01:18 AM
I don't remember the sun being blue. I'll have to fix that later when it comes time to restore the world...

dtsund
08-09-2011, 01:28 AM
Fuck Day One.

I accuse McClain.

Pure cheeseburger vote.

Oh hell, we're scavenging for food and Brickroad's holding out on the cheeseburgers?

I accuse Brickroad.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 01:50 AM
You guys think the birds can come in through the windows? I... I don't want the birds to come in.

Seeing as I don't have anybody to vote for for a reason (not counting 'durr hurr kaisel must be mafia'), I'm going to go ahead and vote for the weakest player, like I did last time. Vote brickroad

Guild
08-09-2011, 01:55 AM
I accuse McClain because he was the first voted-for name I saw.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 01:59 AM
AW, you are the second most predictable player in this game, right after me.

btw i fukked ur mom lolol

Guild
08-09-2011, 02:08 AM
I accuse my mom.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 02:10 AM
btw i fukked ur mom lolol

NO U

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 02:15 AM
I can see we're off to a splendid start. This promises to be a productive day.

Yimothy
08-09-2011, 02:38 AM
I accuse McClain because he was the first voted-for name I saw.

You missed where the O.P. accused Trumpeter! You gotta read the rules, dude.

Guild
08-09-2011, 02:48 AM
I'm not counting that one because Trumpeter is on my team.

I mean because I didn't read the rules.

Shit! This is hard!

widdershins
08-09-2011, 03:15 AM
[looks left]
.
.
.
[looks right]
.
.
.
... Well, shit.

guest
08-09-2011, 03:27 AM
Knight, your soul will be mine.

Nodal
08-09-2011, 03:31 AM
I have to say, I'm at a loss. I'm not sure how to play a Mafia game where I don't even know what the roles are.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 03:41 AM
Same way you play any other game. The rules haven't changed. Some people will be disingenuous. You must find these people and undo them.

No one is your friend. They might be the enemy of your enemy though.

This ruleset makes it easier for people to hide. But I imagine it's also easier to find them since everyone has a power.

Except me. I have lots of powers.

Nodal
08-09-2011, 03:43 AM
Same way you play any other game. The rules haven't changed. Some people will be disingenuous. You must find these people and undo them.

No one is your friend. They might be the enemy of your enemy though.

This ruleset makes it easier for people to hide. But I imagine it's also easier to find them since everyone has a power.

Except me. I have lots of powers.

What the fuck does any of that even mean. What a retarded post.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 03:49 AM
Sorry, let me rephrase that for you:

The Mafia are still goddamn liars. Kill them.

There are two mafia factions so someone fingering and killing a mafia does not mean they are not also mafia.

The mafia can lie by making up any role they want. But everyone has a power so we have a lot of tools at our disposal to catch liars.

Solitayre has lots and lots of powers.

Does that make more sense?

Guild
08-09-2011, 03:56 AM
Solitayre for a soft role claim on day 1.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 03:59 AM
I'm pretty sure everyone has a role.

I just explained this. Twice.

Guild
08-09-2011, 04:04 AM
yeaaaah it's more your emphasis and show of bravado

Guild
08-09-2011, 04:17 AM
i mean, why, with two mafia teams vying to kill hypothetically neutral Solitayre, would he claim 'lots and lots' of powers? not because he lacks them, surely, or i'd call said hypothean twice crazy

Guild
08-09-2011, 04:19 AM
Solitayre, why the hinty hints?

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 04:45 AM
That was me making a joke based on the original pitch (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=12084) for the game. It specifically says something like that there are "lots of powers." I am working off of the assumption that everyone has a power based on that pitch even though I don't actually see anything saying so in the actual rules above. But I am actually glad it sparked some sort of discussion. I like it when people discuss things instead of watching Brick and Alpha make "your mom" jokes for the next three days.

WormRider
08-09-2011, 04:51 AM
Sorry, let me rephrase that for you:

The Mafia are still goddamn liars. Kill them.

There are two mafia factions so someone fingering and killing a mafia does not mean they are not also mafia.


You might be oversimplifying the (still unknown) rules.

If this was an ordinary mafia game, then the Neutral faction would be the Townies, and Law and Chaos would be different Mafia factions --- so maybe everyone should be claiming to be in the Neutral faction or something. But this bit here:

Neutral players will comprise the majority of the game, and win when every alignment that opposes them has been wiped out.


seems to suggest that there is at least one non-Neutral-opposing faction; and so it may be entirely possible for more than one faction to win.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 04:57 AM
I'm pretty sure everyone has a role.

That's either an awfully big assumption based on your neutral role, or privileged information based on your non-neutral role. Either way, between that and your "Hey guys look at me I'm neutral" opening post, I'd tread carefully.

Since, like nodal, I feel somewhat at a loss as to where to start, let's list what we know. Here's what I've got so far that's worth keeping in mind:

- There are at least 3 factions. The "neutral" faction is analogous to the town in a vanilla game, and law and chaos are analogous to the mafia. A difference that works in the town's favor this time around is that the mafia have just as much incentive to kill each other off as they do the town. Food for thought.

- Notice that there's nothing in the rules about nightkills. Since there's no single "mafia" faction, I'd wager based on what's there that night kills only happen if a demon has a specific power that allows them to do so. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if one or the other of the non-neutral factions have the ability to night kill at least once every other night, so we should proceed just as carefully as we would normally.

- An interesting wording from the rules: "When a player is lynched or otherwise killed, their demon identity and alignment will be revealed." If that can be interpreted as "town learns alignment even for non-lynch kills" that could take a lot of guesswork out of the equation.

Not much to go on, I know, but we should know more tomorrow. However, note that tomorrow is also a full Kagutsuchi, and of yet we have no idea how this will factor into the day's flow -- not even how long the day is. Be ready for anything.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 05:00 AM
As I said, the original pitch claimed everyone had a power. I suppose it is possible that that is no longer the case, though.

Not much to go on, I know, but we should know more tomorrow. However, note that tomorrow is also a full Kagutsuchi, and of yet we have no idea how this will factor into the day's flow -- not even how long the day is. Be ready for anything.

We don't even know this for sure. We have no way of knowing if Kagutsuchi is "waxing" or "waning" so to speak. Tomorrow might be a 0/8 day.

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:03 AM
"Lots of powers. Everyone has one. Some have more."

you mean this? it doesn't say 'everyone has lots of powers," it says a Minority will

you know who else is in the minority? extremists like lawyers and chao!

http://cdn1.gamepro.com/article_img/gamepro/143008-3.jpg <==== here i am stuck in the middle with you (right?) ====> http://chaotropolis.sstrike.net/img/promo/neutral6t.png

Lawyer Chao like you, Solitayre.

http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4429/solin.png

look inside ...

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/2728/soli2.png

... your role pm

widdershins
08-09-2011, 05:05 AM
As I said, the original pitch claimed everyone had a power. I suppose it is possible that that is no longer the case, though.

Ah, so it does. Noted. (read again guild -- it's the last line)

We don't even know this for sure. We have no way of knowing if Kagutsuchi is "waxing" or "waning" so to speak. Tomorrow might be a 0/8 day.

Another good point. 4/8 is the midpoint that's hit in both directions, which I hadn't considered. Actually, it'd probably make more sense for tomorrow to be a 0/8 days metagame-wise, since it would allow a smoother transition to whatever 8/8 shenanigans lay in wait. Still, I wouldn't count out the possibility of a curveball.

Heh, well played, Solitayre. Well played.

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:09 AM
"I wouldn't be surprised if one or the other of the non-neutral factions have the ability to night kill at least once every other night, so we should proceed just as carefully as we would normally." -Widdershins

Why do you say it wouldn't surprise you?, if you don't mind the question. I'm unfamiliar with this game's flavor.

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:11 AM
Ah, so it does. Noted. (read again guild -- it's the last line)

... you are the one misreading

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:13 AM
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4930/screenshot20110809at413.png

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 05:16 AM
It is good that we can use Day 1 to settle little arguments like this before it becomes important. These are good things to clear up early! We don't want people trying to use role-claiming as a point of suspicion down the road because they didn't know that everyone has a role.

Then again, we can't blame people for not reading the rules when it's not in the rules.

Also Guild, you might want to collect your thoughts before posting so you don't have to triple post.

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:20 AM
are you no longer claiming multiple powers, sol?

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 05:43 AM
You caught me. I'm totally busted.

My powers are heat vision, super strength, super breath, I can fly, I know kung fu, I can breathe in space and I have a hand that shoots bees.

Also I'm immune to death, so don't bother trying to kill me.

Also the bees also know kung fu.

More serious answer: I am not claiming I have multiple powers, and I'm not claiming I don't. It's not particularly relevant. But like I said, I am glad this discussion is taking place as apparently there was some badly needed rules clarification that needed to happen.

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:46 AM
"It's not particularly relevant." - Solitayre

hm

Guild
08-09-2011, 05:58 AM
Same way you play any other game. The rules haven't changed. Some people will be disingenuous. You must find these people and undo them.

No one is your friend. They might be the enemy of your enemy though.

This ruleset makes it easier for people to hide. But I imagine it's also easier to find them since everyone has a power.

Except me. I have lots of powers.



Sorry, let me rephrase that for you:

The Mafia are still goddamn liars. Kill them.

There are two mafia factions so someone fingering and killing a mafia does not mean they are not also mafia.

The mafia can lie by making up any role they want. But everyone has a power so we have a lot of tools at our disposal to catch liars.

Solitayre has lots and lots of powers.

Does that make more sense?

I realize that the teaser said that this game would have lots of powers. Regardless of how relevant you find the question, did you mean to claim to have multiple powers at these two separate instances, or were they solely and explicitly vague references to something outside this game's thread (however relevant you may find those non-game, content-free threads that are, themselves, irrelevant de facto)?

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 06:09 AM
It was the reference thing, however I don't consider that thread at all irrelevant because it gives us important clues about the nature of the game that are not present in this thread's rules.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 06:10 AM
I like it when people discuss things instead of watching Brick and Alpha make "your mom" jokes for the next three days.

I guarantee you Alpha had the same idea coming into the game as I did: figure out what everyone was expecting you to do in your opening post, and then do it.

If you think anything more interesting than "your mom" jokes will come from Day One discussion, you're deluding yourself. We're going to spin our wheels in an information vacuum until someone dies or uses a power, and that's the goddamn truth.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 06:17 AM
You're provably wrong, I've already gleaned some very valuable information from this discussion, but I'm not going to get into it now.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 06:21 AM
You're provably wrong, I've already gleaned some very valuable information from this discussion, but I'm not going to get into it now.

Let me tell you something about what you think you know about Mafia. In the interest of full disclosure, Vorpal is part of my Friday gaming group. Last Friday, sitting in our friend's tiny cat-infested apartment, I asked him what we should expect.

He said, "Oh, I'm going to fuck all of you."

Then he reached down into his own throat and, gagging, pulled out a smaller, wetter version of himself. He then bludgeoned this grotesque midget-Vorpal to death with a hammer while cackling maniacally.

The moral of the story is: VorpalEdge is the devil. He is the fucking devil and he is going to cactus-fuck every single one of us. We are his puppets and he is going to make us dance over flames.

Put more succinctly: thinking you know anything in a game with purposely-unclear rules is folly.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 06:24 AM
Information is our only weapon so it's as good a thing to put stock in as any.

Guild
08-09-2011, 06:25 AM
I guarantee you Alpha had the same idea coming into the game as I did: figure out what everyone was expecting you to do in your opening post, and then do it.

If you think anything more interesting than "your mom" jokes will come from Day One discussion, you're deluding yourself. We're going to spin our wheels in an information vacuum until someone dies or uses a power, and that's the goddamn truth.

that's how scum talk, acting like we're victims of the fickle winds of randomized roles! boo to the pessimism and defeatist mindframe! what do you think of widds, brick? how about sol? what about me?

please share more than jokes with us

content fluffing won't help us

ok i'll post more next game day or sooner (if i'm questioned or get a pasta hair up my meatball)

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 06:27 AM
boo to the pessimism and defeatist mindframe!

It's realism and experience, not pessimism.

what do you think of widds, brick?

I know some of his tricks from previous Mafia games. I know he will probably want to try and change his act, but won't be able to completely do so. Whether or not this means we'll be able to draw a bead on him, I could not say.

how about sol?

He makes fun Mario levels and bears RMN scars similar to the ones I have. I have no clue how he plays Mafia. My current guess is he's trying to get the veteran TT players to underestimate him by playing stupid -- i.e., claiming to have information he couldn't possibly have.

what about me?

You annoy me, and I hope you die today.

Guild
08-09-2011, 06:28 AM
You're provably wrong, I've already gleaned some very valuable information from this discussion, but I'm not going to get into it now.

tell me what and i'll unvote you

Guild
08-09-2011, 06:31 AM
It's realism and experience, not pessimism.



I know some of his tricks from previous Mafia games. I know he will probably want to try and change his act, but won't be able to completely do so. Whether or not this means we'll be able to draw a bead on him, I could not say.



He makes fun Mario levels and bears RMN scars similar to the ones I have. I have no clue how he plays Mafia. My current guess is he's trying to get the veteran TT players to underestimate him by playing stupid -- i.e., claiming to have information he couldn't possibly have.



You annoy me, and I hope you die today.

This post boils down to, "Widds might be evil and we might know if he is, but maybe not."

You aren't garnering any points from me yourself in this game, content-wise, frankly.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 06:31 AM
tell me what and i'll unvote you

Nope!

Guild
08-09-2011, 06:37 AM
k

unvote

sorry brickroad, you're #1 now for sounding like a scummy chao lawyer who wants to sit back and stay chatty but nontributive to avoid attention

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 06:46 AM
Hahaha, yeah, everyone knows that "avoid attention" is always #1 on the Brickroad Mafia Checklist.

Guild
08-09-2011, 06:52 AM
it's more about the type of attention

widdershins
08-09-2011, 06:53 AM
"I wouldn't be surprised if one or the other of the non-neutral factions have the ability to night kill at least once every other night, so we should proceed just as carefully as we would normally." -Widdershins

It has nothing to do with the flavor -- just that non-town usually has a way of thinning the herd during the night. Since there is more than one "non-town" faction in this game, I would be surprised if they each got a night kill each night since even without knowing the ratios, it would seem like a bit too much power, but wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that they have slightly bigger guns to compensate for their smaller numbers. Whether that translates to an average of one night kill per night across the board or something else is too early for me to guess.

The other interesting thing is the tease about other, unspecified factions. I'm wondering if this will be like the secret boss in Mafia vs Capcom, or something new entirely.

... you are the one misreading

I guess it's not the bottom line, but "Everyone has one. Some have more." is totally in your screenshot.

I guess I'll go ahead and throw down a vote while I'm here, and accuse Brickroad. Dude doesn't seem to like playing when he's not mafia anyways, so either we get lucky on day one, or we get to see fewer "stop trying to make plans, catching mafia is just luck" posts. Either way, I think we win in the end.

Knight
08-09-2011, 06:54 AM
Knight, your soul will be mine.
Oh god, it's the ghost of Eddie, come to take revenge for my actions in a past life! :eek:

botticus
08-09-2011, 07:01 AM
Well this has been an awfully chatty morning for some people.

My only contribution right now is that I think we have better than usual odds of hitting a Mafia at random this game. With two factions sharing similar win conditions, I'd imagine each faction is similar in size to other games. Though powers that they or Neutral demons may have could impact that.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 07:04 AM
"stop trying to make plans, catching mafia is just luck"

This is not my position now, and never has been. Is widds innocently misremembering my arguments from past games? Or is he willfully lying about them so as to sneak aboard the Brickroad bandwagon?

The latter is a decent plan, regardless of what side widds is on. Nobody will look twice at his motives once I'm lynched.

Me? I'd rather kill McClain. I'm a traditional guy.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 07:05 AM
Are you making dangerous assumptions or do you know something I don't know?

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 07:07 AM
Are you making dangerous assumptions or do you know something I don't know?

Who are you asking? Use the quote button, noob.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 07:10 AM
Yeah that was to botticus, sorry for the confusion.

My only contribution right now is that I think we have better than usual odds of hitting a Mafia at random this game. With two factions sharing similar win conditions, I'd imagine each faction is similar in size to other games. Though powers that they or Neutral demons may have could impact that.

We don't know anything about the win conditions of opposing factions. They may be completely different.

Kylie
08-09-2011, 07:22 AM
I am amused by the Solitayre/Guild shenanigans already in play. They are both trying to out-disingenuous each other. We are neck deep in Pollyannas up in here.

Solid money: They are both mafia, and both on the same team.

Yimothy
08-09-2011, 07:25 AM
Solitayre, when you quote, leave in the name of the person you're quoting and the link to the post. Like so:

Law and Chaos win when their respective faction has control of the lynch (when they make up 50% or more of the remaining players) and there are no powers remaining that could shake their hold.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 07:26 AM
I see what you did there.

There has been quite a bit of noise made in the thread about the hypothetical existence of additional secret factions who may or may not be friendly and may have entirely different win conditions.

That said I chose my words poorly and am stupid in general.

Yimothy
08-09-2011, 07:32 AM
I'm pretty sure the two factions botticus was referring to in the post you quoted were law and chaos, though I'm open to correction from him.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 07:41 AM
This is not my position now, and never has been. Is widds innocently misremembering my arguments from past games? Or is he willfully lying about them so as to sneak aboard the Brickroad bandwagon?


I could pull up some funny quotes from past games, but that's not very sporting, and they're heavily situational so it would be disingenuous at best.

To be more fair to you for the new blood on our side of the TT/bronto wall, my take on Brick's mafia philosophy is that detective work based off of perceived slips, and to a lesser extent vote record, is largely fruitless and by and large the town's first successful lynch will be dumb luck. From there, he'd agree that you can build a plan that involves statistical analysis and/or careful working of the games ruleset, but in general frowns on trying to read people poker-style.

Now, clearly I disagree. I think that it's entirely possible to catch people acting in a way that identifies them as mafia -- if not explicitly, at the very least enough to make an informed rather than a random vote. I will concede that OVER-analysing peoples' behavior can be very detrimental to the town, as I've learned from experience on a number of occasions, but would argue that some of Brick's naysaying in the past has been equally detrimental, or at the very least unhelpful.

I've also suggested in the past that because of Brick's preference for playing as mafia rather than as town, that he intentionally plays like a mafioso in every game so that when he is mafia he can cite past behavior to profess his innocence. However, since then I've been more inclined to believe that he just has a bombastic playstyle regardless of his affiliation, and that that's not an entirely fair assessment.

So yeah, Brick and I are at odds when it comes to general play philosophy.

Then again, maybe I just want to kill Brick before I post something stupid and he gets a chance to break out his use-the-preview-button.gif.

What do you think, Mr. Road? Am I closer to the mark?

poetfox
08-09-2011, 08:00 AM
Hi!

I am incredibly entertained by this Guild/Solitayre thing. For the record. They are making shit happen on day one. Useless shit, but hey.

Kylie's assessment of them makes a ton of sense to me, at least in general. At the same time, I don't know them both in the Mafia times, and have a vague sense that I heard Guild was known for these shorts of shenanigans in non-TT games. And eh, the non-ending blue sun day is young.

One more thought before I hit the road and come back later: I think worrying about factions is kind of stupid early game. Unless something clear starts presenting itself, we're going to let ourselves get twisted up wondering if someone is in one or the other when, in the end, it's very likely that anyone other needs to die anyway. Once a law or an order or a sekret faction is wiped out, then would be the time to see who was pushing on the other faction more than most for information, right? Or does someone see value in that kind of conjecture ahead of time that I'm missing?

botticus
08-09-2011, 08:11 AM
I'm pretty sure the two factions botticus was referring to in the post you quoted were law and chaos, though I'm open to correction from him.
This is correct. And their win conditions are posted in the rules (gaining control of the lynch).

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 08:19 AM
What do you think, Mr. Road? Am I closer to the mark?

Dead to rights, old chum.

Would you mind unvoting me please? For old time's sake? =)

widdershins
08-09-2011, 08:43 AM
Would you mind unvoting me please? For old time's sake? =)

We'll see.

Also, I'm an idiot and see why Guild was telling me to re-read his post now. Derp.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 08:47 AM
I am pleasantly surprised that someone, for the first time in the history of TT, has seen value in my lynch-brick-on-day-1 argument.

As for Solitayre vs. Guild... eh. Guild is playing rather newb-like and I really can't say if it's newb town or newb mafia, while Solitayre reads more like town at this point.

As for a secret boss mechanic, there's exactly one that I can think of and that's the Demi-Fiend switching alignments. Still, I think now as always that it is fruitless to theorymance, especially so early in the game.

I'd like to see some content from our nonposters before doing any deep analysis.

Guild
08-09-2011, 09:02 AM
yep that's me total newb

i agree that brick's behavior could be anti-majority while his win condition is pro-majority, but then, should he not die in that case as well?

Dizzy
08-09-2011, 09:03 AM
I'd like to see some content from our nonposters before doing any deep analysis.

Here's some content for your deep analysis.

kaisel
08-09-2011, 09:12 AM
Huh, interesting, Kagutsuchi should be interesting, and if it's anything like the games, we should be prepared to have an 8/8 day be pretty much a pretty low activity day (alternately filled with "aaaaOOOOOOOOOOfkjsdlwebeforeMAGATSUHIIIIIIIIeateat eatEAteaTEATTT" posts, while powers automatically trigger).

Solitayre and Guild look to me as if they're doing the typical townie "argue amongst themselves while the mafia just watch" plan, but they're both new to TT.

I did say that I should murder Brickroad this game, unless we were on the same team. Hey Brick, blink once if you're Law, twice if you're Neutral, and three times if you're Chaos...

breakman
08-09-2011, 09:14 AM
Man, this is intimidating. It was hard enough trying to use the rules advantageously when I actually knew the rules.

I noticed (4/8) doesn't specify a random lynch if no one votes (so I'm guessing (8/8) would have at least that), but even if we wanted to do that it clearly wouldn't be safe to try. I guess that doesn't matter until we get to (0/8).

Still, I think now as always that it is fruitless to theorymance, especially so early in the game.

So, are you not curious about what role dead players might have in the game?

widdershins
08-09-2011, 09:21 AM
I am pleasantly surprised that someone, for the first time in the history of TT, has seen value in my lynch-brick-on-day-1 argument.

Whoa whoa, easy there killer. I've got a history of picking on Brick all mah own. Don't be takin' credit.

'Sides, I'm happy to pick on either of you; you guys are two sides of the same weird-ass coin. It's what makes your longstanding feud so hilarious, really.

After all, what is Brick's general disdain for post analysis if not a really broad application of WIFOM? (Except, you know, with actual English)

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 09:21 AM
So, are you not curious about what role dead players might have in the game?

I am. Since I do not have any basis for speculation, I see no reason to indulge in it.

Karzac
08-09-2011, 09:41 AM
I accuse Guild. Dude is muddying up the works. I didn't understand half of that argument between him and Solitayre and it really seemed like crazy finger-pointing, which is a pretty common first-time Mafia tactic.

I really wanted to accuse Brickroad here, but Guild is a much better target right now.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 09:45 AM
Guild's an old hand, this is just his first TT rodeo. "Scum" is a dead giveaway -- it's a common mafia/werewolf term used in not-TT mafia.

Karzac
08-09-2011, 09:49 AM
Guild's an old hand, this is just his first TT rodeo. "Scum" is a dead giveaway -- it's a common mafia/werewolf term used in not-TT mafia.

Well, then I like his posting even less. Why would a veteran post crazy-ass bullshit like that if he were clean?

breakman
08-09-2011, 09:51 AM
I accuse Guild. Dude is muddying up the works. I didn't understand half of that argument between him and Solitayre and it really seemed like crazy finger-pointing, which is a pretty common first-time Mafia tactic.

I really wanted to accuse Brickroad here, but Guild is a much better target right now.

Hey, uh, no offense, but...are you even in this game? Your name's not on the list.

p.s., Sorry we killed you at the end of M12

Karzac
08-09-2011, 09:59 AM
Huh, that's weird. I got a role PM.

Vorpal, what's going on here?

Raven
08-09-2011, 10:15 AM
Too much unknown quantities to make a coherent Day 1 post, and this whole kagutsuchi thing make my head spin...

With everyone-had-powers rule and god knows how many factions there are, this is a very individually-oriented game. At this point, it's more a battle between individuals instead of between factions. So yeah...Let's Survive first, and maybe a few days later we can start over-analyinge, second-guessing, and theory-mancing everything to death.

That said, somebody up there made a good point about the set-piece making it very easy for players to hide. And I'd suggest to keep an eye on those who made their mandatory post, then announced that they won't be able to post for a while. It's an excellent way to stay below the radar without making anyone else suspicious for their lack of activity...just sayin'.

Karzac
08-09-2011, 10:21 AM
whooooops

I assumed that he was letting dwolfe in as well as me. I don't care if I'm not in the game. I'm just confused that I got a PM.

Guild
08-09-2011, 10:33 AM
Well, then I like his posting even less. Why would a veteran post crazy-ass bullshit like that if he were clean?

I'm a chao lawyer because you didn't understand my posts? Huh. That's like, quantum observation or something.

Maybe you're just not good at reading... or lazy! Or maybe I'm one of those! Communication is a two-person job (citation needed). How about a question instead of vague accusations?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/ea/SFTMHandcar.jpg

Regardless of if you WANT the clarification, here it is. Solitayre was implying he had multiple powers, apparently as a joke (?). I pointed out that the material he was basing his 'joke' on stated that only a minority of players would have multiple powers, and that the correlation between a minority of mafia roles inferred that he was likely scum, not town, in order to force him to clarify on whether he WAS joking or not. By committing to it being a joke (?), he can't later claim it was a bread crumbed role claim, and he can't rely on using an inferred softclaim to keep him safe from investigations/suspicion with minimal input required from him.

I know that's meta as fuck, but I'm satisfied and I unvoted him. And then Brickroad happened to the thread, but now I'm less sure of him since apparently he does stuff like this in every game? My vote stayed because I don't consider that a good excuse, but if something better comes up I will change votes. I'm willing to trust the majority that he's just a WIFOM nihilist day 1 in every game.

McClain
08-09-2011, 10:36 AM
Holy fuck but you people talk a lot. Yes, I appreciate the irony of me saying this.

Watching the new people do The Brickroad Dance is amusing the shit out of me. Did you not see how I didn't even respond to him voting for me? It's because Brickroad doesn't matter day one. He's going to do his flail vote and cheeseburger thing, and in a few days something is going to happen: if he's on the winning team, he'll be having fun, and if he's on the losing team, he'll be a wet blanket. Wait and watch on him.

Realizing that Guild is not a rookie and is still acting like one in his first game here means I won't feel bad for wanting to kill him day 1. I accuse Guild for triple posting and throwing out WIFOM already.



He said, "Oh, I'm going to fuck all of you."[/SIZE]

This, friends, is the most important post so far today.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 10:44 AM
Oh god, and chao laywer is more "words we use on my other games" nonsense?

Alpha had to learn his lessons the hard way, and Guild's gonna have to be right behind him.

Fuck. That. Noise. Talk like a human (or at least, like a demon) in these here parts. Check your cute acronyms and bullshit doublespeak at the door.

Unvote Brickroad

I accuse Guild so hard

McClain
08-09-2011, 10:46 AM
pssst, I think he's referencing this post. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120186&postcount=34)

widdershins
08-09-2011, 10:50 AM
pssst, I think he's referencing this post. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120186&postcount=34)

That post was like a fever dream. I mean, I guess I get the chao=chaos and laywer=law bit, "chao lawyer" is the stupidest sounding thing I've ever heard. I'll allow it for a single acid fueled post, but if that shit's going to be his go to replacement for "mafia", then I have no regrets about my decision.

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 10:57 AM
Solid money: They are both mafia, and both on the same team.

There's certainly something fishy there. And it's not just the Kelpie.

Fuck. That. Noise. Talk like a human (or at least, like a demon) in these here parts. Check your cute acronyms and bullshit doublespeak at the door.

Unvote Brickroad

I accuse Guild so hard

Yeah, Guild's posts are annoying me, and I don't really see any better justification for a day 1 kill. Either he's Law and/or Chaos looking to bluff through, or he's Neutral and doing a really crappy job of trying to be quirky and nonthreatening. Either way, I Accuse Guild. In the face.

breakman
08-09-2011, 11:00 AM
laywer=law

Oh geez, that part went right over my head. I just assumed he was equating lawyers with bad guys or something (or talking about "rules lawyers," maybe).

Guild
08-09-2011, 11:08 AM
I don't suppose a role claim will save me?

Guild
08-09-2011, 11:10 AM
Nonthreatening? I fucking put my vote where my mouth is just like you. What's so nonthreatening about me? What do you want me to do, attack people with my fists?

McClain
08-09-2011, 11:11 AM
I don't suppose a role claim will save me?

Short answer: No.

We don't know any powers in the game, so your claim won't home much weight. Unless you want to use a power, which is always interesting, if not the best move.

Don't do anything rash yet. The day is early. Better targets may surface.

McClain
08-09-2011, 11:12 AM
Also, given that no one is allowed to leave the game, even after they die, makes me really wonder how permanent any death is. So, you know, keep your fingers crossed?

poetfox
08-09-2011, 11:21 AM
Hi, I'm posting from an Apple Store! Natural Scrolling is confusing and terrible.

Widds, I think Guild is giving you plenty to fabricate a reason to accuse him, but not being willing to adapt to his method of speech is a really, really dumb one. It seems odd to take your laziness to play the game and unwillingness to invest the time to understand what's going on out on Guild.

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 11:23 AM
Widds, I think Guild is giving you plenty to fabricate a reason to accuse him, but not being willing to adapt to his method of speech is a really, really dumb one. It seems odd to take your laziness to play the game and unwillingness to invest the time to understand what's going on out on Guild.

Hey, FWIW, I understand what's going on perfectly guild. I just find him annoying, and it's not like we're going to have better information on Day 1 anyway.

dtsund
08-09-2011, 11:24 AM
...yyyep, this sure is a Mafia game.

I'm really kind of not feeling this Guild/Solitayre thing. I mean, the idea that they're both in the same faction and trying to deflect suspicion from one another is just a little too obvious. They've effectively guaranteed now that, if one of them is found guilty, both will get lynched.

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 11:25 AM
And wow, that was typo-laden. Let's try that again.

I understand what's going on perfectly well. I just find guild annoying. Besides, it's not going to do much harm if we don't get a majority.

McClain
08-09-2011, 11:25 AM
Guild is honestly giving me a town vibe, because it would be kind of dumb for mafia to stick their necks out so far this early.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 11:27 AM
Widds, I think Guild is giving you plenty to fabricate a reason to accuse him, but not being willing to adapt to his method of speech is a really, really dumb one. It seems odd to take your laziness to play the game and unwillingness to invest the time to understand what's going on out on Guild.

1) I understand just fine, but when folks are talking at me with buzzwords, and doubleposting 'cause they can't find the preview button, I don't think I'm the lazy one.

2) It's early in the day. Chill.

3) Seriously, what? Those claws came right the fuck out.

dtsund
08-09-2011, 11:28 AM
And wow, that was typo-laden. Let's try that again.

I understand what's going on perfectly well. I just find guild annoying. Besides, it's not going to do much harm if we don't get a majority.

We don't need a majority unless the Kagutsuchi is at minimum. A plurality will do in the current phase.

Who knows what things'll be like when it's at maximum.

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 11:31 AM
We don't need a majority unless the Kagutsuchi is at minimum. A plurality will do in the current phase.

Who knows what things'll be like when it's at maximum.

Oh, true. Hm. We don't even know which direction Kagutsuchi is going, do we?

I unaccuse guild. While he's annoying me, that's not reason enough to kill him with a plurality.

Unless he continues to be annoying. On notice, that's all I'm saying.

Lakupo
08-09-2011, 11:31 AM
As an actual newbie, I've tried to get a feel for the game and how people might act by viewing some of the past threads (scrying into the past lives of my fellow demons!), and hey, it's pretty similar! Blind accusations, Brickroad accusations, rules craziness and clarifications! Day 1 always seems to be a whole lot of flailing. So I've been trying to mull over some key points made in the rules.

*Players will be divided into one of at least three alignments: Neutral, Law, or Chaos. Neutral players will comprise the majority of the game, and win when every alignment that opposes them has been wiped out. Law and Chaos win when their respective faction has control of the lynch (when they make up 50% or more of the remaining players) and there are no powers remaining that could shake their hold. There may be other factions not detailed here.

*In a marked change from previous games, while the exact method by which the factions decide their nightkill targets is unknown to you, an individual member must perform the kill. The kill is submitted in the same way as other night abilities, and can be affected by more skills than in previous games.

The OP rules do not mention the distribution of skills, but the proposal did, so I think it's safe to assume that everyone's got some. I'm curious to how many are unique, though, there could be some copies of skills around, and if that's true, then it might be a bloodbath. Note the key point about nightkills being performed by an individual. That must matter.

I think there have to be more mafia than usual, because there are two factions, and the win conditions of those factions are to wipe as many people out as possible. Kagutsuchi might play a role in which side can nightkill, but this is just a guess based on the rules, but with possibly two factions killing and skills, that could be up to two or three people dying a night. It's a big game, but I sense something is afoot. Either way, the endgame will probably be more crazy than usual. The rules also mention possible other factions, but "may exist" can also mean "does not exist", so it's easier to assume based on what is known, than the unknown.

Nodal's confusion about roles/skills seemed kind of suspicious, but I'll let it slide. The whole Guild/Solitayre thing, Guild put a lot of effort into some posts, but I feel Solitayre is giving off more a neutral vibe. I have a feeling that if you're going to bandwagon in this game, bandwagon early.

I accuse Guild.

breakman
08-09-2011, 11:34 AM
Who knows what things'll be like when it's at maximum.

Everybody who makes or receives a vote dies.

It would make an interesting last day, at least.

poetfox
08-09-2011, 11:56 AM
On my phone now! I'm everywhere.
Widds, if you think those are claws, you're going to be scared shitless when I actually pull them out.
Anyway, here's more explanation. Like egarwaen said, it's stupid to lynch him because he's annoying. Look at what he's doing. He's pointed out something going on with solitayre that, while not enough on its own, could help a case later. Think what a motherfucker like guild could do once there's some actual data around! He's working from actual evidence and shit that happened.
Annoying people get reactions. Reactions are useful. Don't write him off so fast. Lynch him if you think he's guilty. That's what your vote is for, not to make the game more pleasant.

McClain
08-09-2011, 12:09 PM
Note the key point about nightkills being performed by an individual. That must matter.

In past games this has been because there was a "bomb" role that revenge killed that person's killer. I would suspect something similar is happening here: Whoever the factions use to perform night kills is at risk. Possibly something else is going on with it, but that's the best guess based on what we know from previous games.

Kagutsuchi might play a role in which side can nightkill, but this is just a guess based on the rules, but with possibly two factions killing and skills, that could be up to two or three people dying a night.

This is a good call, and it sounds familiar. I'll have to try to see if something like this came up in a different pitch or if I saw it on that mafia wiki a while back, but limiting the night kills in a three-way game like that would make a lot of sense.

I only hope this is powerful observation and not inside information. :cool:

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 12:12 PM
Annoying people get reactions. Reactions are useful. Don't write him off so fast. Lynch him if you think he's guilty. That's what your vote is for, not to make the game more pleasant.

poetfox I love you.

And now! To an actual suspicious person.

As an actual newbie, I've tried to get a feel for the game and how people might act by viewing some of the past threads (scrying into the past lives of my fellow demons!), and hey, it's pretty similar! Blind accusations, Brickroad accusations, rules craziness and clarifications! Day 1 always seems to be a whole lot of flailing. So I've been trying to mull over some key points made in the rules.

The OP rules do not mention the distribution of skills, but the proposal did, so I think it's safe to assume that everyone's got some. I'm curious to how many are unique, though, there could be some copies of skills around, and if that's true, then it might be a bloodbath. Note the key point about nightkills being performed by an individual. That must matter.
Extensive theorycrafting; For me, coming from a player I don't know to be a theorycrafter, this is a warning sign. Moreover, the point about individuals making the nightkill has been used at least once before, that being Mafia vs. Capcom; It simply means there could be a retaliatory role, or a role that benefits from doing kills. Really, though, individuals performing the nightkill is quite common in other forums, without any relationship to the power setup.

I think there have to be more mafia than usual, because there are two factions, and the win conditions of those factions are to wipe as many people out as possible. Kagutsuchi might play a role in which side can nightkill, but this is just a guess based on the rules, but with possibly two factions killing and skills, that could be up to two or three people dying a night. It's a big game, but I sense something is afoot. Either way, the endgame will probably be more crazy than usual. The rules also mention possible other factions, but "may exist" can also mean "does not exist", so it's easier to assume based on what is known, than the unknown.
Lakupo makes many assumptions that I see as unfounded here, unless he has prior information. Why do there have to be more mafia than usual, for instance? There are two mafia factions, meaning (most likely) more kills each night. And why mention Kagutsuchi specifically in relation to the nightkill? I don't see anything about that in the rules, just that it interacts with Chaos demons when at minimum.
My point is, Lakupo is doing a whole lot of unfounded assuming that could easily be someone with prior information pretending to theorycraft.

Nodal's confusion about roles/skills seemed kind of suspicious, but I'll let it slide. The whole Guild/Solitayre thing, Guild put a lot of effort into some posts, but I feel Solitayre is giving off more a neutral vibe. I have a feeling that if you're going to bandwagon in this game, bandwagon early.

I accuse Guild.
This part, though, is what troubled me about this post the most. Lakupo votes for Guild - but not because he's annoying, or because he feels that he's mafia, but because "if you're going to bandwagon in this game, bandwagon early". That is quite possibly the least town-ish reason to vote for someone I have ever seen, edging out the "he uses the mafia terms we don't like" by a slim margin.

Unvote
Vote Lakupo

Preview edit: Damnit McClain don't ninja my analysis!

Dizzy
08-09-2011, 12:16 PM
I accuse Luana.

Limited internet connection means limited playtime means I don't want to have to deal with someone who in the event they are crooked might use this excuse to weasel their way out of accusations of absence and lack of focus, substance, etc. Tough!

McClain
08-09-2011, 12:18 PM
Does Alpha always want to lynch newbies for making newbie moves? I feel like I've seen this movie before.

Anyhow, if you read my awesome ninja post, you'll see how I read his post. I don't find it that suspicious. It's read to me like a new person making leaps that a lot of us either already know or take for granted capped with a newbie-logic vote.

McClain
08-09-2011, 12:20 PM
Also, why the hell would mafia announce they are bandwagoning?

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 12:22 PM
newbie-logic vote.
Premise: Lakupo has read some of the games on this site.
Fact: Many games on this site contain newbie-logic votes that promptly get the newbie pounced upon.
Logical Conclusion: Lakupo could very well be trying to mask a jump on the bandwagon with the image of a newbie.

McClain
08-09-2011, 12:23 PM
Premise: Lakupo has read some of the games on this site.
Fact: Many games on this site contain newbie-logic votes that promptly get the newbie pounced upon.
Logical Conclusion: Lakupo could very well be trying to mask a jump on the bandwagon with the image of a newbie.

Could be, but every time I've seen a newb roll mafia their first game they try to stay the hell away from the fray early. I guess you could double-think this, too, but I'm not feeling it yet.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 12:29 PM
Could be, but every time I've seen a newb roll mafia their first game they try to stay the hell away from the fray early. I guess you could double-think this, too, but I'm not feeling it yet.
I see this as Lakupo trying to stay away from the fray:

One long-ish post with theorymancing to give the image of contributing to rereaders - check.
Flimsy at best explanation for jumping on leading wagon - check.
Mentioning the fact he's a newbie right away - check.

As an example, Karzac's game back in M8 (where he was a newbie) was all about saying "I agree!" in various ways and voting for the easiest wagon.

Lakupo
08-09-2011, 12:44 PM
And now! To an actual suspicious person.


Extensive theorycrafting; For me, coming from a player I don't know to be a theorycrafter, this is a warning sign.

Unvote
Vote Lakupo

This is pretty much all you can do on day one: theorycraft. There's no concrete evidence to say one person or another is mafia, so poking around the rules to come up with some statistics or strategies is the only decent place to start, in my book. There are assumptions, but the rules start to get vague about certain specifics, so you have to fill in the gaps based on what makes the most sense, both based on other mafia games and the flavor of SMT. What does full kagutsuchi mean? Unknown. I like the idea of everyone dying based on votes because EATEATEAT but who knows. The truth could be stranger than the theories. Assuming a lot of kills? That's based on the basic math of being 26 players (which seems like a lot based on what I've seen), three factions, and it takes a lot of kills to bring the numbers down, and crossfire means a faction could lose a lot early and not be able to recover. Anyway, yes, I'm probably a theorycrafter, because that's all I can do, because you all could be liars. (or: I'm better at reading the rules than I am at reading people.)

I didn't vote for Guild because "if you're going to bandwagon in this game, bandwagon early", that's just why I voted early. I voted for Guild because of his posts like the chao lawyer post.

But, your suspicion of me and defense of Guild is duly noted. Just in case.

Nodal
08-09-2011, 12:45 PM
I think guild and solitayre are being suspicious buuuut I think Solitayre is being waaay more suspicious. Not being able to take back things as misinterpreted or a joke is exactly why I made him clarify his post in real words. I accuse Solitayre.

Nodal
08-09-2011, 12:47 PM
Also he's either a mafia, lying about having lots of powers, or stupid.

If he's a mafia awesome.

If he's lying about having a lot of powers, that's a good lesson for townies to learn. Don't fucking lie there's no need.

If he's stupid and outed himself for no reason he's probably going to do stupid things with his powers.

Guild
08-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Lakupo: The mafia are trying to kill people who are not on their team by guiding bandwagons. That's why bandwagons are suspect, not a REASON to vote someone. What do you think of what Alpha and others are saying about/to you?

widdershins
08-09-2011, 12:53 PM
Anyway, here's more explanation. Like egarwaen said, it's stupid to lynch him because he's annoying. Look at what he's doing. He's pointed out something going on with solitayre that, while not enough on its own, could help a case later. Think what a motherfucker like guild could do once there's some actual data around! He's working from actual evidence and shit that happened.
Annoying people get reactions. Reactions are useful. Don't write him off so fast. Lynch him if you think he's guilty. That's what your vote is for, not to make the game more pleasant.

It's stupid to lynch him maybe, but not to vote for him. I seem to remember you can change your votes in this here game, and if some early pressure gets a dude to quit spouting jargon, then I'm happy with the results.

That said, of course basing accusations on suspicions is preferable. And hey, as soon as someone piques my suspicion, I'll happily switch to them. Until that point, I have zero qualms about voting for people on the grounds of annoyance or my thinking their prior play styles were toxic to the town.

It's early yet. Especially considering the number of people that are new to TT mafia and new to mafia in general, compounded with the number of people in this game, I figure the first (real life) day will be spent feeling each other out. Of the people specifically brought up as suspicious so far, none have really bothered me.

Guild's initial take on solitayre was valid (I think I took a similar jab at him), but as soon as he pointed out that he was referencing the pitch post directly, it seemed pretty clear to me that his earlier comment wasn't nearly as suspicious as it had initially seemed. Guild seemed to be belaboring the point after the fact, which made me figure he was either being willfully obtuse or projecting guilt, and either way, I'm happy to string him up for his trouble if nothing more promising crops up (note: something usually does).

As for Lakupo, his post reads like CLASSIC overanalysis from a new player, be they mafia or town, and I think Alpha just likes sounding like he knows what he's talking about. Yes he could have decided from past mafias that he could get away with a long rambling post as long as he calls himself out as a newbie, why bother attracting that much attention to yourself? Seems like a new player that drew mafia, particularly one that's been reading up on past games, would keep their head down until they get a chance to talk to their team rather than take a risk. Sure, all the things you point out are worth keeping an eye on, but that post didn't have nearly enough to get me going just yet. If you really want to get him to keep slipping up, you don't tell him what he did wrong immediately after his first post. You let the evidence build and spring it on him later.

Guild
08-09-2011, 12:54 PM
Lakupo: Ah. Just read up. Ok, but you should have stated your reason for your vote at the time, IMHO.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 12:55 PM
But, your suspicion of me and defense of Guild is duly noted. Just in case.
I'm not defending Guild; I'm attacking your badly reasoned attack on Guild. Had you posted the reason you did just now in your original post, I would have no problem with it. So in the future, if you vote for someone, post your damn reasoning too. I very much like your response to my accusation, though; Had you panicked, it would have made me sure you're mafia. As is, you're hovering at the neutral point.

Unvote

Still don't think Solitayre or Guild are worth a vote at this point.

Luana
08-09-2011, 01:01 PM
I accuse Luana.

Limited internet connection means limited playtime means I don't want to have to deal with someone who in the event they are crooked might use this excuse to weasel their way out of accusations of absence and lack of focus, substance, etc. Tough!

At least I used my first post to say something substantial. I can access mafia via my phone regularly enough, but I won't be able to do those lightning-quick responses that people can meta the fuck up.

Also, I guess I'm the only person on here who's amused as he'll by Chao Lawyer. You'd better believe I'm going to be sporting a Chao Lawyer pin at PAX.

Anyway, I think that Guild and Solitayre are just squabbling like townies tend to do. Guild's pretty familiar with mafia, and Solitayre reminds me of breakman in that they're new and enthusiastic, therefore posting a lot. I don't want to let the regulars slide, though. I wish I had more to go on, but with most of the posts being reactionary to Brick being Brick and Guilatayre, yeah, going to bide my time a bit before laying my vote down.

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 01:07 PM
Lakupo: The mafia are trying to kill people who are not on their team by guiding bandwagons. That's why bandwagons are suspect, not a REASON to vote someone. What do you think of what Alpha and others are saying about/to you?

I'd say that anti-bandwagons should be more suspect at the moment. Remember, there only needs to be a plurality of votes to lynch someone today, not a majority. Seems to me like the better Mafia strategy would be to discourage any large voting blocs from forming, muddy the waters as much as possible (like poetfox and Guild are doing), then slip through a lynch of their chosen target with a bare minimum of votes.

So yeah, based on that logic, I accuse Guild. Again. You're doing a really bad job of convincing me that you shouldn't die.

botticus
08-09-2011, 01:25 PM
If you really want to get him to keep slipping up, you don't tell him what he did wrong immediately after his first post. You let the evidence build and spring it on him later.
While I agree with everything else you said about Lakupo (a new Mafia guy isn't going to intentionally play to a strategy that brings a lot of heat, because sometimes that gets them killed - see Yimothy), I'm not a big fan of holding things back. Unless you're referring to someone screwing up time and time again in the same day. Cause if you wait a day, you might be dead, and there goes all your expert analysis. So let's not do that!

Guild
08-09-2011, 01:27 PM
It's been my experience that a calm, collected, not-yelling town does better than a panicked one. That's why I think anti-bandwagoning early on in the first day is a really good idea. I think this way because I've run about 20 games and played in about 40 or 50 and that's just what I've experienced in general. Yeah I can back that claim about playing 50 games if requested.

Again, I don't think Solitayre is evil (now), just that he WAS being manipulative and vague, and I'm not going to tolerate it.

Guild
08-09-2011, 02:22 PM
Each * is a post.

Alpha Werewolf *******
botticus ****
breakman ****
Brickroad **********
Destil *
Dizzy **
dtsund ***
dwolfe
Eirikr
Egarwaen *****
Guild **************************
kaisel *
Knight *
Kylie **
Lakupo **
Luana **
McClain **********
Nich *******
Nodal ****
poetfox ***
pointzeroeight
Raven *
Solitayre ****************
widdershins *************
WormRider *
Yimothy ***
-guest *
-Karzak ****

breakman
08-09-2011, 02:31 PM
This is a good call, and it sounds familiar. I'll have to try to see if something like this came up in a different pitch or if I saw it on that mafia wiki a while back, but limiting the night kills in a three-way game like that would make a lot of sense.

I only hope this is powerful observation and not inside information. :cool:

Based on this:

* When Kagutsuchi is at minimum (0/8), your inhibitions are raised and you are considerably overcautious. Day ends after 96 hours. A player may be lynched when day ends only if a majority of players vote for him or her. Chaos powers are weakest during this time.

...my guess is that Chaos can't nightkill during (0/8), and, if that's the case, Law can't nightkill in (8/8). Or maybe that's referring to something else. Shouldn't matter tonight, anyway.

spineshark
08-09-2011, 02:42 PM
We forgot that Karzac offered to give up his spot, and also that we said it was okay. I'll talk to VorpalEdge when I get a chance, but I will say that, for no other reason than that this was a pretty significant retcon on our part, I'm open to allowing a direct transfer. This should be clarified by tonight, around the time of the 24hr votecount.

I may also regret saying this as such, but there are no players without powers. It's not in the "rules" because it isn't a rule, it's a premise.

dwolfe
08-09-2011, 02:49 PM
Everyone, I appear to have a temporary form of retrograde amnesia. I hope to be cured of it soon. Until then, I am going to continue quietly sitting in the corner meditating and trying to regain my lost memories.

Destil
08-09-2011, 02:50 PM
Man, if the variable width text doesn't make that misleading looking as hell... I didn't validate or update this, I just reformatted it.

Each * is a post.

Alpha_Werewolf *******
botticus ****
breakman ****
Brickroad **********
Destil *
Dizzy **
dtsund ***
dwolfe
Eirikr
Egarwaen *****
Guild **************************
kaisel *
Knight *
Kylie **
Lakupo **
Luana **
McClain **********
Nich *******
Nodal ****
poetfox ***
pointzeroeight
Raven *
Solitayre ****************
widdershins *************
WormRider *
Yimothy ***
-guest *
-Karzak ****

WormRider
08-09-2011, 02:52 PM
Lots of stuff about Lakupo

I agree that the sudden accusation of Guild at the end seems strange, but about the rest of what AW wrote:

You know what really bothered me when I read past games on TT? Many people tended to say a strategy is flawed, dumb, or noob without pointing out why. If you don't explain why "extensive theorycrafting", as you called it, is a bad course of action right now, then we have no basis to discuss. Beside, we're playing a new game with new and unknown rules, why take past strategies for granted without re-evaluating them? Inflexibility means that your strategies won't evolve. Proof by assertion doesn't convince me. Sound logic does.

I have no past interaction with Lakupo, and neither do I have any idea what faction he belongs to; but I found his post one of the most substantial so far. I think we should speak up our theories about the rules, and this is why:

- how it may be good for townies: being prepared for things that may or may not happen is good. As we conjecture what the rules may or may not be, we may end up with nothing useful we can do, or we may end up finding possibilities that can be tested or experimented with. It's hard to say, but we'll never know if we don't throw theories out there.

- how it may be bad for townies: communication between townies is not harmful, the harmful thing is that mafias also have full knowledge of the information exchanged. It may be bad, when, say, we come up with a strategy for a situation that will not come up soon; and the mafias, knowing what we discussed, find a way to walk around it. In this particular game, on day 1, however, all the theories we end up with will probably be about the rules. Rules are not strategies; they are not up to the players, regardless of whether they're townies or mafias. There is nothing the mafias can do about it. For example, Lakupo conjectured that the two mafia factions may kill on different nights. If that's true then, good, we are aware of the possibility. If that's not true, no harm done. Regardless of whether it's true or not, there's nothing the mafias can do about it. They can't just decide to kill together and then skip a night, because we happened to discover their secret rules.

Relatedly, it's logical to assume that the mafias know more about the rules then we townies do -- for at least they know about their own killing rules, so coming up with possible theories to fill up the gap is a beneficial course of action. I have my guesses about what the rules could be, but that will have to wait for another post when I have more time.

So, I already stated my reasons. Why don't you tell me why you think that theorycrafting at this point, in this particular game, is bad?

spineshark
08-09-2011, 02:56 PM
Actually, forget waiting. It's not the only bookkeeping error we made, so there's no problem fixing it, just like the others.

Karzac has been replaced by dwolfe.

Guild
08-09-2011, 03:02 PM
... doh

McClain
08-09-2011, 03:06 PM
You guys sure put a lot of effort into that for no reason (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=12136).

Yeah, I was just about to ask what the point of that was.

Also, it's way too early to be talking about post counts, and that shit is my bread and butter.

Destil
08-09-2011, 03:08 PM
You guys sure put a lot of effort into that for no reason (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=12136).

Variable width text used when fixed width would serve better is a pet peeve of mine...

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 03:08 PM
Worm: Good question! I have been just throwing it out without explaining since most players in this game pretty much know my reasoning already. I'll explain.

For one, if discussion centers around theorymancing, we lose valuable time. I wouldn't mind this if this was a game without a deadline, but since we do, we need to talk about relevant things; For me, theorymancing is irrelevant right now because we have no data to base it on, while mafiahunting is relevant because we have information (posts).

For two, theorymancing is the only thing that both mafia and town can do equally, and worse - there is often no difference between a person's theorymancing when they're mafia, and a person's theorymancing when they're town - Only assumptions (like I made earlier) that the person knows too much.

For three, theorymancing is easy to do, and if a player simply theorymances then by day 3 or so, there will be no hard data on them - if they're mafia, that's great for them, but if the town concensus is that it's okay to do this then it won't be valid evidence against someone who does do it, meaning that mafiosi can limit the data we get on them and still appear to be contributing.

If this was day, say, 4 then I would see NK-kagutsuchi speculation as much more valid and relevant, because we'd have three nights of nightkills to analyze.

McClain
08-09-2011, 03:13 PM
I always just feel like you have sort of pet peve against theorymancing people making theories, and I never really saw the problem with it. Yeah, it can be used as a smoke screen, but it's better to let people get caught doing that than to just shout "STOP IT" every time.

Knight
08-09-2011, 03:20 PM
Also, it's way too early to be talking about post counts, and that shit is my bread and butter.
Yea, it's day one, and it's still kinda early. I only posted once so far because I haven't really had the time. When I'm at work, I can only really read/post when I'm on break or at lunch, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who is limited during work hours.

breakman
08-09-2011, 03:22 PM
For one, if discussion centers around theorymancing, we lose valuable time. I wouldn't mind this if this was a game without a deadline, but since we do, we need to talk about relevant things; For me, theorymancing is irrelevant right now because we have no data to base it on, while mafiahunting is relevant because we have information (posts).

This part sounds backwards to me. The useful information for finding mafia comes tomorrow, after we kill someone, see what affiliation they were, and see who voted for them. Until then, we can mostly just wait for something crazy to happen.

To be fair, in my experience, at least two crazy things happen sometime during Day 1. I didn't feel like I had much to do until then.

Lakupo
08-09-2011, 03:23 PM
we lose valuable time. I wouldn't mind this if this was a game without a deadline, but since we do, we need to talk about relevant things; For me, theorymancing is irrelevant right now because we have no data to base it on, while mafiahunting is relevant because we have information (posts).
You speak as if these are mutually exclusive activities.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 03:26 PM
Guilatayre

Sadly, this is not the first time my name has been portmanteau'd with someone else's.

...or the second.

Regarding the theorycrafting argument, all we can do is speculate based on what people know of the flavor. Anything people know about it that could help us prepare for the days to come is useful information.

Guild
08-09-2011, 03:29 PM
I think wormrider is the only player in this game I've agreed with 100% thus-far, and he's not voting for anyone. Wormrider, if you had to vote now, who would you vote for and why?

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 03:34 PM
I've actually been hoping someone would let a skill or a demon name from their PM slip, because I feel like I'm pretty uniquely qualified to figure out someone's affiliation based on that.

(Assuming the GMs actually stuck to the typical affiliation from the games, that is--I'd assume that if someone was, say, Metatron that they'd be in the Law faction. But for all I know it won't be that easy.)

VorpalEdge is the devil. He is the fucking devil and he is going to cactus-fuck every single one of us. We are his puppets and he is going to make us dance over flames.

Yeah, might be best not to make that assumption. Besides, people with a working knowledge of SMT could probably fake that easily enough.

Eirikr
08-09-2011, 03:37 PM
haha i am cu chualinn look at me ha ha

Guild
08-09-2011, 03:50 PM
wtf is with the name claim?! holy hell i'm going to go sleep until today's lynch is over i swear

see you later talking time, same talking time, same talking thread

Cú Chulainn ([kuːˈxʊlˠɪnʲ] ( listen), Irish for "Culann's Hound"), also spelled Cúchulainn, Cúchulain, Cú Ċulainn, Cúchullain or Cú Chulaind, is an Irish mythological hero who appears in the stories of the Ulster Cycle, as well as in Scottish and Manx[citation needed] folklore. The son of the god Lug and Deichtine (sister of Conchobar mac Nessa), he was originally named Sétanta.
He gained his better-known name as a child after he killed Culann's fierce guard-dog in self-defence, and offered to take its place until a replacement could be reared. At the age of seventeen he defended Ulster single-handedly against the armies of queen Medb of Connacht in the epic Táin Bó Cúailnge ("Cattle Raid of Cooley"). It was prophesied that his great deeds would give him everlasting fame, but that his life would be a short one. This is the reason why he is compared to the Greek hero Achilles. He is known for his terrifying battle frenzy or ríastrad (similar to a berserker's frenzy, though sometimes called a "warp spasm" because of the physical changes that take place in the warrior),[1] in which he becomes an unrecognisable monster who knows neither friend nor foe. He fights from his chariot, driven by his loyal charioteer Láeg, and drawn by his horses, Liath Macha and Dub Sainglend. In more modern times, Cú Chulainn is often referred to as the "Hound of Ulster".[2]

italics indicate my own highlighted interest. is mebd chaos, law or neutral, nich? i'm willing to bet this is a neutral role claim, but that's still just suspicious as fuck given no pressure on him!! oh god i have a headache now from staying up 24 hours to play werewolf

Eirikr
08-09-2011, 03:51 PM
haha, you know nothing do you

Dizzy
08-09-2011, 03:52 PM
At least I used my first post to say something substantial. I can access mafia via my phone regularly enough, but I won't be able to do those lightning-quick responses that people can meta the fuck up.

Also, I guess I'm the only person on here who's amused as he'll by Chao Lawyer. You'd better believe I'm going to be sporting a Chao Lawyer pin at PAX.

Anyway, I think that Guild and Solitayre are just squabbling like townies tend to do. Guild's pretty familiar with mafia, and Solitayre reminds me of breakman in that they're new and enthusiastic, therefore posting a lot. I don't want to let the regulars slide, though. I wish I had more to go on, but with most of the posts being reactionary to Brick being Brick and Guilatayre, yeah, going to bide my time a bit before laying my vote down.

That was a bunch of vanilla bullcrap.

Lakupo
08-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Eirikr just wishes that he were Cu Chulainn. Forever and ever, always. (it's his favorite)

widdershins
08-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Yeah, I don't get the problem with theorycrafting either. Okay, so mafia can do it as well as town. So don't use theorycrafting as a way to exonerate or condemn anyone. Simple enough. Hell, if someone goes the entire game doing nothing but theorycraft, and just goes with the flow on votes, I can see it being used as evidence of nefarious activity, but on a single post (on day one of day one, no less) I don't get how it's particularly suspicious.

Especially when you factor in that this ruleset is quite different than ones we've had in the past, bouncing ideas about the mechanics off one another probably isn't a terrible idea.

Kylie
08-09-2011, 03:57 PM
I think theorymancy is a natural reaction to being a new player; you want to say something important, and you don't really know the tenor of the game, so you do the first thing that comes to mind and start chewing on the strategy. Many of us have been around for a round or two, and the strategies are a little more familiar and tasteless. But theorymancy is pretty harmless, unless you are using it to direct opinion. Lakupo hasn't set off my alarm bells there yet.

Alpha: You posted an analysis of Guild's behavior, and wrote it off as mistakes made by either noob town or noob mafia. Maybe I missed a post in there, but I'm curious as to what you think of his opinions now that you realize he's not either (well, at least not as far as newness goes; he's probably either town or mafia).

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 04:06 PM
Cu Chulainn's typically Neutral, but if Eirikr is actually Cu Cu I'll eat Raidou's hat.

On the other hand, I can totally see them actually giving Eirikr Cu Cu just to fuck with us.

Eirikr
08-09-2011, 04:07 PM
Eirikr just wishes that he were Cu Chulainn. Forever and ever, always. (it's his favorite)

I am one of the following demons:

Will O' Wisp
Slime
Mou-Ryo
Blob
Black Ooze
Phantom
Shadow
Preta
Choronzon
Yaka
Chatterskull
Pisaca
Legion
Rakshasa
Gurr
Loki
Abaddon
Surt
Aciel
Mot
Beelzebub
Arahabaki
Baphomet
Pazuzu
Girimehkala
Tao Tie
Samael
Mada
Zhen
Bicorn
Raiju
Nue
Mothman
Hresvelgr
Makami
Cai-Zhi
Yatagarasu
Barong
Garuda
Horus
Atavaka
Amaterasu
Odin
Mithra
Vishnu
Gui Xian
Long
Erthys
Aeros
Aquans
Flaemis
Albion
Dionysus
Wu Kong
Beiji-Weng
Shiva
Kurama
Hanuman
Cu Chulainn
Shiisaa
Unicorn
Senri
Feng Huang
Baihu
Chimera
Minakata
Zouchou
Koumoku
Okuninushi
Mikazuchi
Jikoku
Bishamon
Thor
Kikuri-Hime
Kushinada
Parvati
Kali
Skadi
Uzume
Sarasvati
Sati
Lakshmi
Scathach
Uriel
Raphael
Gabriel
Michael
Metatron
Valkyrie
Ganesha
Inugami
Nekomata
Badb Catha
Orthrus
Sparna
Cerberus
Shikigami
Momunofu
Oni
Ikusa
Shiki-Ouji
Kin-Ki
Sui-Ki
Fuu-Ki
Ongyo-Ki
Angel
Archangel
Principality
Power
Virtue
Dominion
Throne
Pixie
Jack Frost
High Pixie
Pyro Jack
Kelpie
Troll
Setanta
Oberon
Titania
Forneus
Eligor
Berith
Ose
Decarabia
Flauros
Datsue-Ba
Taraka
Shikome
Yaksini
Dakini
Clotho
Lachesis
Atropos
Rangda
Matador
Daisoujou
Hell Biker
White Rider
Red Rider
Black Rider
Pale Rider
The Harlot
Trumpeter
Dante
Kodama
Hua Po
Sudama
Sarutahiko
Titan
Gogmagog
Ara Mitama
Nigi Mitama
Kusi Mitama
Saki Mitama
Lilim
Fomor
Incubus
Succubus
Kaiwan
Loa
Queen Mab
Black Frost
Nyx
Lilith
Nozuchi
Naga
Mizuchi
Raja Naga
Quetzalcoatl
Yurlungur
Apsaras
Isora
Koppa
Dis
Karasu
Onkot
Jinn
Purski
Efreet

Kylie
08-09-2011, 04:09 PM
I think that if Eirikr had gotten a PM with the words "Cu Chulainn" in it last night, we'd have heard about it before the game even started.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 04:16 PM
Guild, as the most gullible man on TT, even I'm amazed by your sarcasm detection skills.

Eirikr
08-09-2011, 04:18 PM
That's the one!

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhjppjqRNI1qfhdato1_500.gif

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 04:20 PM
You guys talking about Cu Chullain in hushed and ominous tones is making me nervous. Is there something the neophytes among us we should know about this creature?

Kylie
08-09-2011, 04:39 PM
Well, either it's theorycrafting out Eirikr's role, or completely derailing the thread, whichever you prefer.

As per the game, I believe Cu Chulainn is a physical, physical-resist, neutral type of demon. But I could be wrong, and anyway I don't think Eirikr is Cu Chulainn nor do I think it is germane.

Knight
08-09-2011, 04:40 PM
Eirikr just wishes that he were Cu Chulainn. Forever and ever, always. (it's his favorite)
It's like the time I claimed to have a Gengar in M13, except people actually fell for it then! I don't think we'll be able to come up with a deeper or more complex mafia game than PokeMafia.

WormRider
08-09-2011, 04:49 PM
Worm: Good question! I have been just throwing it out without explaining since most players in this game pretty much know my reasoning already. I'll explain.

For one, if discussion centers around theorymancing, we lose valuable time. I wouldn't mind this if this was a game without a deadline, but since we do, we need to talk about relevant things; For me, theorymancing is irrelevant right now because we have no data to base it on, while mafiahunting is relevant because we have information (posts).

For two, theorymancing is the only thing that both mafia and town can do equally, and worse - there is often no difference between a person's theorymancing when they're mafia, and a person's theorymancing when they're town - Only assumptions (like I made earlier) that the person knows too much.

For three, theorymancing is easy to do, and if a player simply theorymances then by day 3 or so, there will be no hard data on them - if they're mafia, that's great for them, but if the town concensus is that it's okay to do this then it won't be valid evidence against someone who does do it, meaning that mafiosi can limit the data we get on them and still appear to be contributing.

If this was day, say, 4 then I would see NK-kagutsuchi speculation as much more valid and relevant, because we'd have three nights of nightkills to analyze.

Thank you for your explanations! I think your points are valid, but their assumptions questionable. For your point two and three, someone already brought up the fact that if all a player ever does in game is theorymancing, then that itself is data and it would make them suspicious.

Your point one is essentially a problem of optimization. You think that theorymancing means wasting valuable time in which we could discuss other things. I would agree with you, provided that we have more valuable things to discuss. This is not to say I think theorymancing is the most valuable thing we can do on day one. I honestly don't know; I'll have to think about it before I reach a conclusion, and my time is rather constraint right now since I'm at work.

I think wormrider is the only player in this game I've agreed with 100% thus-far, and she's not voting for anyone. Wormrider, if you had to vote now, who would you vote for and why?

...I actually didn't read the thread very carefully due to being at work, AW's post just stood out to me so I replied to it. I'll do a re-read later today or tomorrow, and then I'll see who I think is suspicious.

I think theorymancy is a natural reaction to being a new player; you want to say something important, and you don't really know the tenor of the game, so you do the first thing that comes to mind and start chewing on the strategy. Many of us have been around for a round or two, and the strategies are a little more familiar and tasteless. But theorymancy is pretty harmless, unless you are using it to direct opinion. Lakupo hasn't set off my alarm bells there yet.

But you never played this particular game with this particular rule set. Experiences are valuable; but if your situation changes and you're inflexible about your strategies, I think that's harmful. I'm not zealous about theorymancing, I just think that it is beneficial given this particular situation. My opinion will change if a sound argument is presented, and that sound argument is definitely not one that appeals to tradition and/or authority.

Kylie
08-09-2011, 04:52 PM
I haven't played this ruleset; I barely even know what it is, which is why I think a little theory is harmless. But I know that in others, I've directed theory in some very negative directions for the town, so it's a tactic I'm pretty careful about monitoring.

kaisel
08-09-2011, 04:54 PM
I am one of the following demons:
...


I'm disappointed that you didn't go the extra mile and toss in their alignments as well.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 04:55 PM
Went to sleep for eight hours.

Woke up.

Ate cereal.

Checked Mafia.

Same as it ever was.

Kylie, have you figured out how you're going to humiliate me yet? If we're repeating history here, we may we well go full-boss-hog.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 04:57 PM
The one thing about this ruleset is that having dual "mafia" factions is an interesting double-edged sword:

On the one hand, as soon as someone is revealed to be from one faction, the other has an incentive to help us find the rest, rather than just try and kill townies, since if we're going after one, we're not going after the other.

On the other, this means every single mafia player has a way to post genuine suspicions about one person or another, since they're at odds with one another as well.

In this game more than any we should be extremely wary of what we decide to infer from one or another person's vote. Until one faction is completely gone, the mafia presumably have just as much stake in catching another mafioso as the rest of us.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 05:01 PM
Alpha: You posted an analysis of Guild's behavior, and wrote it off as mistakes made by either noob town or noob mafia. Maybe I missed a post in there, but I'm curious as to what you think of his opinions now that you realize he's not either (well, at least not as far as newness goes; he's probably either town or mafia).
Now that I know he's been playing for a long time, it becomes much harder to read him.

Since Guild comes from a meta much more similar to my own from other forums than yours, I feel that the same logic that applies to some players I know could apply to him. And I know at least one player who is highly regarded on MTGSalvation, and his entire playstyle is basically trolling people until he finds a mafia-like response (at which point he analyzes them rather well). People usually have trouble reading him, whether mafia or town, and this situation is similar. So my answer is this:

I think Guild is experienced, and that we should take his 'opinions' with a grain of salt.

WormRider
08-09-2011, 05:14 PM
Completely unrelated, but what is the champagne room in TT forum context? I feel like people who have played at least a game here before know this, but I don't.

Well, actually I inferred from the context that it's some sort of spectator room. What I wonder is how it works. Is it just a list of people who can see this thread but cannot post in it, or something else?

botticus
08-09-2011, 05:15 PM
I've actually been hoping someone would let a skill or a demon name from their PM slip, because I feel like I'm pretty uniquely qualified to figure out someone's affiliation based on that.

(Assuming the GMs actually stuck to the typical affiliation from the games, that is--I'd assume that if someone was, say, Metatron that they'd be in the Law faction. But for all I know it won't be that easy.)
Any thoughts about Widds' accent?


Relatedly, it's logical to assume that the mafias know more about the rules then we townies do -- for at least they know about their own killing rules,
Heck, there is even some uncertainty there for Day 1. We'd have to assume that the nightkill rules were provided to each Law and Chaos demon in their role PM for that to be true, which doesn't seem to be a given.

Eirikr
08-09-2011, 05:16 PM
I'm disappointed that you didn't go the extra mile and toss in their alignments as well.

I actually deleted them (the families anyway) for formatting reasons.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 05:18 PM
Also Eirikr is lying about being Cocchulayin or however the fuck it's spelled, because I'm Cockawhatsits. My special power is smelling bad and dropping psycho-slimes on FF12 characters.

Kylie
08-09-2011, 05:22 PM
Went to sleep for eight hours.

Woke up.

Ate cereal.

Checked Mafia.

Same as it ever was.

Kylie, have you figured out how you're going to humiliate me yet? If we're repeating history here, we may we well go full-boss-hog.

Brick, if the opportunity arises, I promise I will grind you against the wheel of justice so hard that your ancestors will hurt. But that's only if it's apropos. Play nice, and we'll never need to worry about that. Besides, in M8 I thought you were innocent!

So, Alpha: Nothing, then? He's venerable, thus unreadable? That's an interesting premise, and if it's true I'm not sure I like him. But I'm certainly not convinced yet. Granted, Day 1 etc. etc.

Egarwaen
08-09-2011, 05:22 PM
Heck, there is even some uncertainty there for Day 1. We'd have to assume that the nightkill rules were provided to each Law and Chaos demon in their role PM for that to be true, which doesn't seem to be a given.

Further, the public rules don't state whether the members of the Law or Chaos factions know at the start who the other members of their faction are. They may have to wait until the first night phase to discover that. Now, I'm not sure whether this makes a Day 1 lynch more or less advantageous, but it's going to be virtually impossible to stop one.

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 05:24 PM
Brick, if the opportunity arises, I promise I will grind you against the wheel of justice so hard that your ancestors will hurt. But that's only if it's apropos. Play nice, and we'll never need to worry about that. Besides, in M8 I thought you were innocent!

Wasn't M8 Alpha's Capcom horseshit? I didn't play in that one.

i was innoc3nt in m9 though :3

McClain
08-09-2011, 05:31 PM
Completely unrelated, but what is the champagne room in TT forum context?

Basically it's a private chat or quicktopic board that people talk shit about us in while knowing all the information already. It's damn fun, and usually when you play mafia when you die you can go there and find out how right or wrong you are and cheerlead, but not in this one.

VorpalEdge
08-09-2011, 05:46 PM
We forgot that Karzac offered to give up his spot, and also that we said it was okay. I'll talk to VorpalEdge when I get a chance, but I will say that, for no other reason than that this was a pretty significant retcon on our part, I'm open to allowing a direct transfer. This should be clarified by tonight, around the time of the 24hr votecount.

I think what happened was that I c/p'd the wrong list of players from the voting thread when randomizing the list, and then I didn't think any further about it. Sorry for screwing with you, dwolfe/karzac.

Alpha Werewolf
08-09-2011, 06:04 PM
So, Alpha: Nothing, then? He's venerable, thus unreadable? That's an interesting premise, and if it's true I'm not sure I like him. But I'm certainly not convinced yet. Granted, Day 1 etc. etc.

Yeah, I could've phrased it better.

Right now, I can't read him. Ask me again in a few days, and I'll probably have a better answer.

widdershins
08-09-2011, 06:08 PM
Any thoughts about Widds' accent?

My what, now?

dwolfe
08-09-2011, 07:26 PM
*dwolfe rises from his meditation*

I wondered... I've a peculiar feeling that I may never see any of you again. It is as if I were one of those minor characters in a melodrama who gets shuffled offstage without ever learning how things turned out.

If we are the authors and editors of our own stories, who do we want to composing our lives? More importantly, who would be disastrously bad choices?

*dwolfe hangs upsidedown from a rafter like Michael Keaton Batman*

Brickroad
08-09-2011, 08:05 PM
Oh jesus the fuck christ.

I accuse dwolfe.

McClain
08-09-2011, 08:11 PM
Hah, I was going to say something about enjoying dwolfe's flavor, but Brick's response is pretty classic.

dwolfe
08-09-2011, 08:34 PM
*blinks*

Accusing me of what, exactly, bricky? I'm still trying to get my bearings here; I just regained my own memories, and now I'm trying to follow along.

Geez, are you still holding a grudge from M13? I said I was sorry for dropping you in that vat of toxic chemicals. I didn't realize it'd turn your hair that virulent shade of green. I think it's quite fetching with the freckles, though.

*begins gently swinging back and forth, hanging from my ankles*

McClain
08-09-2011, 08:38 PM
Better you than me, Batwolfe!

pointzeroeight
08-09-2011, 08:48 PM
So uh, how about that blue sun? Pretty sure it wasn't like that before.

Guild
08-09-2011, 08:58 PM
pointzeroeight, anything to say about the last seven pages of posts?

Destil
08-09-2011, 08:58 PM
I've never seriously gotten into a megaten game, so help me (I've put some time into Strange Journey but not past the first area) so someone confirm what I'm seeing here with the phases:

0/8: Predisposition towards law
4/8: Balance
8/8: Predisposition towards chaos

Am I right here? Nich? Anyone?

pointzeroeight
08-09-2011, 09:17 PM
pointzeroeight, anything to say about the last seven pages of posts?

Honestly, not really. I've read all the posts and it seems like a lot of baseless fingerpointing for now (as far as I can tell at least). Also just trying to get a feel for how this works as this is my first time playing Mafia on a forum.

McClain
08-09-2011, 09:28 PM
Honestly, not really. I've read all the posts and it seems like a lot of baseless fingerpointing for now (as far as I can tell at least). Also just trying to get a feel for how this works as this is my first time playing Mafia on a forum.

You get down here into the mud and do some baseless fingerpointing right now young man!

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 09:45 PM
The first 24 period of the first day is drawing to a close, so I am going throw out some random observations:

-Dizzy and Destil need to post more.

-I guess Nich has sort of become the de-facto go-to guy for questions about the setting/flavor. Even if he is an opposing faction it would be pretty dangerous for him to lie about any of it.

-Dwolfe is kind of creeping me out.

For now, I accuse Dizzy. He has done and said nothing so far but put up a vote for Luana for a very easily justifiable reason that no one would question him about. I am not saying that Luana giving herself an excuse not to post isn't good grounds to vote for her, but he at least has to come explain to me why I shouldn't kill him.

Luana
08-09-2011, 10:54 PM
but [Dizzy] at least has to come explain to me why I shouldn't kill him.

Oh god, please do not prod the man to make a ginormous post. It would probably take up all of my limited bandwidth to load it all.

The main reason why I'm still loathe to vote for anyone is because I still can't wrap my head around the damn rules. I know that there are three factions, yes, and that you've got the the Law, the Chaos, and the Neutral, but... I'm still trying to suss out the rules. I mean, how can Law be bad? I guess that's just the literalist in me, being all "I don't understand, why can't neutral and law be bros" and stuff.

Anyway, to hell with it! Time for our Regularly Scheduled Gut Vote from Luana! I vote for Alpha Werewolf, mainly because his whole "I know what I'm doing, trust me" schtick really rubs me the wrong way. I dunno, maybe Brick has rubbed off on me too much?

Luana
08-09-2011, 10:55 PM
fuuuuuuuuu

I vote for Alpha Werewolf.

Lakupo
08-09-2011, 11:25 PM
The main reason why I'm still loathe to vote for anyone is because I still can't wrap my head around the damn rules. I know that there are three factions, yes, and that you've got the the Law, the Chaos, and the Neutral, but... I'm still trying to suss out the rules. I mean, how can Law be bad? I guess that's just the literalist in me, being all "I don't understand, why can't neutral and law be bros" and stuff.

I think by commonly interpreted D&D alignment standards, Law and Neutral are considered more buddy-buddy types, but consider that in the original Shin Megami Tensei, the law group nukes Japan because a few demons have appeared in Tokyo. They're a bit... intolerant.

Yimothy
08-09-2011, 11:36 PM
Law is bad because Neutral's win condition requires that they all die. It's not a moral judgement. If you wanted to make it one, though, it's because they're fascists or whatever.

Solitayre
08-09-2011, 11:46 PM
Oh god, please do not prod the man to make a ginormous post. It would probably take up all of my limited bandwidth to load it all.


I like it when people say things, though. The more they say, the better, because sometimes they say things without realizing it that turn out to be significant.

For example, widdershins said something very interesting earlier, something that he may or may not have realized the significance of when he said it. I think it will be very important later.

Also, Neutral is basically "town" and Law and Chaos are basically two separate Mafias that hate each other, if that makes it easier to think about.

Yimothy
08-09-2011, 11:56 PM
For example, widdershins said something very interesting earlier, something that he may or may not have realized the significance of when he said it. I think it will be very important later.

Oh my goodness! What could it have been?

That's not a very good example, dude.

spineshark
08-10-2011, 12:08 AM
Day 1 voting - 48 hours remain (Plurality lynches):

McClain - 1
Brickroad (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120097&postcount=5)
Guild (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120122&postcount=12)

Brickroad - 1
dtsund (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120109&postcount=10)
Alpha Werewolf (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120118&postcount=11)
widdershins (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120228&postcount=57)

Guild - 4
Nich (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120250&postcount=64)
McClain (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120374&postcount=91)
widdershins (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120381&postcount=93)
Egarwaen (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120395&postcount=96)
Lakupo (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120440&postcount=111)
Egarwaen (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120529&postcount=131)

Lakupo - 0
Alpha Werewolf (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120469&postcount=115)

Luana - 2
Dizzy (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120472&postcount=116)
Nich (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120729&postcount=176)

Solitayre - 1
Nodal (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120502&postcount=124)

dwolfe - 1
Brickroad (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120920&postcount=190)

Dizzy - 1
Solitayre (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120998&postcount=199)

Alpha Werewolf - 1
Luana (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1121062&postcount=201)

Guild
08-10-2011, 12:29 AM
I think I'm still voting Brickroad, but I long since started listening to people tell me he's just being himself, and then his last vote made me laugh so I'm not even grumpy at him anymore. Unvote Brickroad.

I'm too nervous to post as much as I used to, but double butts on me if I'll let the town control my behavior utterly out of fear for my own, tiny life. I accuse Luana because I agree with Nich's last post.

Get opinions: this is war!

Yimothy
08-10-2011, 02:23 AM
Neutral players will comprise the majority of the game

So we know that there's between 14 (minimum for a majority when there's 26 players) and 24 (most there can be with at least two other factions) Neutrals. That means each of the other factions has between 1 and 11 players. I wasn't gonna bother raising this, but apparently some of you guys actually do like theories? Great! Bear in mind that this assumes we can take what the GM said in the description of the game literally.


Also, why the hell would mafia announce they are bandwagoning?

The reason the mafia do anything they'd never do is so you'll ask that very question.


Each * is a post.

Guild **************************

The mystery of Guild's multipostings explained!

I don't rate post counts very highly. I guess it's possible people are trying to hide by not posting very much, and having the threat of someone making that clear with a list like this could be a deterrent, but really, they aren't even an accurate representation of how much volume someone has posted, let alone how much content. Guild, for example, had 26 posts at the time he posted his count. If we count double and triple posts as only one post he had 18. Some of those were jokes (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120127&postcount=14). One of them was a screenshot (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120191&postcount=38) of a thread which he'd already quoted (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120186&postcount=34) the relevant part of, with no further explanation. One of them was this (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120186&postcount=34). Another (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120201&postcount=43) contained this sentence: "Regardless of how relevant you find the question, did you mean to claim to have multiple powers at these two separate instances, or were they solely and explicitly vague references to something outside this game's thread (however relevant you may find those non-game, content-free threads that are, themselves, irrelevant de facto)?". So yeah.

Another thing about post counts is that I live in a different timezone to most people in this game. There were over a hundred posts made between me going to bed last night and getting up this morning. There have been about twenty-five in the same amount of time since, only five of which were made since I found time to catch up on the thread (two of those five were mine, and one was the GM). How am I supposed to get my count up when there's no new stuff to respond to?


I think this way because I've run about 20 games and played in about 40 or 50 and that's just what I've experienced in general. Yeah I can back that claim about playing 50 games if requested.

Yeah, can you go ahead and back that claim for me? I'm totally interested in all your experience and authority on this subject.


For now, I accuse Dizzy. He has done and said nothing so far but put up a vote for Luana for a very easily justifiable reason that no one would question him about. I am not saying that Luana giving herself an excuse not to post isn't good grounds to vote for her, but he at least has to come explain to me why I shouldn't kill him.

A) Show your working. Don't make me have to go looking back through the thread for whatever you're talking about, quote it or link (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120472&postcount=116) to it.
B) You think he's suspicious because his reason for voting for someone was justifiable?
C) I'll give you a reason why you shouldn't kill him: your reason why you should kill him is stupid.
D) Do you also require everyone else to explain why you shouldn't kill them for no reason?


I am pleasantly surprised that someone, for the first time in the history of TT, has seen value in my lynch-brick-on-day-1 argument.

I've called for a day one Brick lynch before. My grounds then were that he's a strong player with a lot of info, and weak without it. That was mafiahack, when the mafia had a lot of info, and the town had very little. Your reason ("Brickroad sux! (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120118&postcount=11)") is inaccurate. We don't know yet if Brick'll be any good this game, but it's not impossible that he will be. For us or for them, I dunno, but I'm not yet convinced that it's more likely he'll help the mafia than help the town. I guess maybe you aren't either, since you've unvoted.

And while I'm talking to you Alpha, what's up with quoting different people in one post (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120469&postcount=115) without leaving in the names and links? That's just sloppy.


(a new Mafia guy isn't going to intentionally play to a strategy that brings a lot of heat, because sometimes that gets them killed - see Yimothy)

Y'wha? I was town my first game, and when I did roll mafia I lasted several days before getting myself killed. Or do you mean new to the game, in which case you've provided your own counterexample - I did voice a strategy (admittedly, I didn't play it) that drew a lot of heat as a new Mafia guy.

Raven
08-10-2011, 02:48 AM
0/8: Predisposition towards law
4/8: Balance
8/8: Predisposition towards chaos

Am I right here? Nich? Anyone?

Yep, pretty much.

...and I'm also pretty sure that some (or even most) powers can only be activated when the kagutsuchi corresponds to the players' alignment. For instance, some (probably most) Law-aligned players will probably only be able to use their powers at 0/8.

Solitayre
08-10-2011, 02:50 AM
A) Show your working. Don't make me have to go looking back through the thread for whatever you're talking about, quote it or link (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120472&postcount=116) to it.
B) You think he's suspicious because his reason for voting for someone was justifiable?
C) I'll give you a reason why you shouldn't kill him: your reason why you should kill him is stupid.
D) Do you also require everyone else to explain why you shouldn't kill them for no reason?



My issue with Dizzy is that he is making a lot of fairly meaningless posts (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120303&postcount=76) and he is flying under the radar. He jumps on an easy bandwagon and has said nothing else all day. Yes, I find that behavior suspicious.

Guild
08-10-2011, 03:01 AM
suddenly some love from yimothy, thanks for the great post, wish more people would follow suit

uh... i think you said stuff about me thinking post counts matter? no i just don't like people who DON'T post except to say something meaningless or unhelpful. with the town looking a wee bit paralyzed on Tuesday, i figured that by showing everyone who isn't posting we'd get to hear from those people - i'd like to think it worked on dwolfe

yeah i got my sarcasm detector fixed, no my experience doesn't make me good at mafia (favorite part of your post)

nobody's good at mafia, we all just try to not suck at it

except mazo

Raven
08-10-2011, 03:01 AM
...and I'm also pretty sure that some (or even most) powers can only be activated when the kagutsuchi corresponds to the players' alignment. For instance, some (probably most) Law-aligned players will probably only be able to use their powers at 0/8.

Wait...on a second thought, I seem to misunderstood something before. Disregard that statement.

Solitayre
08-10-2011, 03:07 AM
...and I'm also pretty sure that some (or even most) powers can only be activated when the kagutsuchi corresponds to the players' alignment. For instance, some (probably most) Law-aligned players will probably only be able to use their powers at 0/8.


Wait...on a second thought, I seem to misunderstood something before. Disregard that statement.

Whoa whoa whoa, hold the phone. What made you think that, specifically?

Yimothy
08-10-2011, 03:09 AM
My issue with Dizzy is that he is making a lot of fairly meaningless posts (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120303&postcount=76) and he is flying under the radar. He jumps on an easy bandwagon and has said nothing else all day. Yes, I find that behavior suspicious.

Ah, so it is. Whoops. Point A stands, but now I am the one who is stupid.

Guild, nice to know you're not too hung up on post counts, but I'm pretty sure there are some people who are.

Hey Raven, how do you know that about Law powers? Are you Law?

Guild
08-10-2011, 03:18 AM
Another (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120201&postcount=43) contained this sentence: "Regardless of how relevant you find the question, did you mean to claim to have multiple powers at these two separate instances, or were they solely and explicitly vague references to something outside this game's thread (however relevant you may find those non-game, content-free threads that are, themselves, irrelevant de facto)?". So yeah.

The person I was asking understood the question perfectly. If you're saying that I'm being unclear to you, specifically, or to people I'm not even addressing; I don't give a rat's ass.

If you want clarification I'll provide it, but don't try to make me look like a lunatic by taking my posts out of context and stringing them together into some kind of accusation-free, non-voting, vague, frowny-face post. You're defensive before being attacked directly and it's bothering my brain a bit.

At least you're demonstrably more insightful (or enthusiastic) than Luana, who I am voting for.

Raven
08-10-2011, 03:21 AM
* When Kagutsuchi is at minimum (0/8), your inhibitions are raised and you are considerably overcautious. Day ends after 96 hours. A player may be lynched when day ends only if a majority of players vote for him or her. Chaos powers are weakest during this time.



I interpreted that bolded sentence as "Chaos players can't use their ability at 0/8", and assume from there that Law players will be able to use their ability at 0/8 (since Law and Chaos are opposites, and such) and that basically, every players can only use their ability at a single Kagutsuchi phase, depending on their factions.

However, after re-reading the rules and thinking it over again, I realized that my assumption is just a baseless conjecture, and that the rules of ability are probably more complex than that.

Guild
08-10-2011, 03:21 AM
very interested in raven's responses to all that, but it's too bad he's going to run to his team for advice (and wait 24 hours to respond to boot)

Guild
08-10-2011, 03:23 AM
hmm... it's a damn weird thing to say based on 'chaos is weakest' alone

can any chaos players step forward and confirm that they can't use their powers at 0/8?

Guild
08-10-2011, 03:26 AM
ok... forget i asked that question, i wasn't thinking about it

that would be basically asking mafia to tell us they are mafia, and that's not going to happen

yeeeeeaaaah i kinda think raven just screwed the pooch a little

Solitayre
08-10-2011, 03:28 AM
Raven, I was ready to let that first post go on the assumption that you were just an SMT player who knew things about the way the game works. However, your incredibly clumsy retraction makes it look like you're either:

A. A law player who accidentally said a little too much and are now trying desperately to backpedal.

B. A player who is intentionally withholding potentially useful information about the gamestate.

Neither of these things make me very happy.

Guild, I am not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse or not but it's getting pretty old.

Yimothy
08-10-2011, 03:38 AM
The person I was asking understood the question perfectly. If you're saying that I'm being unclear to you, specifically, or to people I'm not even addressing; I don't give a rat's ass.

If you want clarification I'll provide it, but don't try to make me look like a lunatic by taking my posts out of context and stringing them together into some kind of accusation-free, non-voting, vague, frowny-face post. You're defensive before being attacked directly and it's bothering my brain a bit.

I understand what the question was asking, but I don't understand why you asked it like that. That's why I was accusation free (and non-voting!). I don't see it as a move for either side. The other reason is that I wasn't trying to build a case against you, I was trying to demonstrate that not all posts are created equal, and people looking at post counts should remember that. And I linked to your posts. If people think what you've said makes you look like a lunatic, they can follow the links and see if it makes more sense in context.

By the way, I'm glad that you've found your shift key and stopped complimenting me. Compliments always make me nervous.

very interested in raven's responses to all that, but it's too bad he's going to run to his team for advice (and wait 24 hours to respond to boot)

This is also very interesting. How's he gonna run to his team for advice when standard TT mafia practice is his team can't confer until the night phase, which is close to two real world days away?

Are you able to run to your team for advice even as we speak, Guild?

Raven
08-10-2011, 03:39 AM
I don't know if I'm buying that. I wanted to see what you had to say for yourself before calling you on it, but "Chaos powers are unusable at this time," the logical inference to draw from the bolded statement, is not the same thing as "Law powers are only usable at this time." I'm wondering if you didn't say something you happened to know to be true from your role PM and belatedly realize it didn't logically follow from the rules post. "Disregard this statement" indeed.

Hmm....can we just call this "slippery slope"? And the reason why I retract that statement is that I don't want to put forward a theory without concrete proof...basically what I mean by "disregard that statement" is that "wait, this theory isn't as sound as I thought."

Yimothy
08-10-2011, 03:45 AM
I'm gonna say this now, so I can look really stupid when both Guild and Raven turn up innocent: This is why we theorymance.

I vote Guild

Brickroad
08-10-2011, 03:46 AM
Yeah, wow, I'm the guy who's always like "day one lawl!" and even I didn't miss that.

Sorry newbie, you done fucked up. Better luck in M15.

I accuse Raven.

Solitayre
08-10-2011, 03:49 AM
Hmm....can we just call this "slippery slope"? And the reason why I retract that statement is that I don't want to put forward a theory without concrete proof...basically what I mean by "disregard that statement" is that "wait, this theory isn't as sound as I thought."

Weak.

We speculate all the time. There's no reason to retract a theory unless there's something in it you don't want us to know.

As written, the rules say "chaos powers are weakest during a 0/8 phase." Something you could infer from that is that the inverse holds true as well, and that law powers are weakest during a 8/8 phase, but even an elementary assumption like that could be completely foolhardy.

However, nothing in those rules logically indicates that "law powers can only be used on a certain day."

I unaccuse Dizzy.
I accuse Raven.

This does not diminish my suspicion of Dizzy and I would still like to hear from him soon.

Raven
08-10-2011, 03:50 AM
very interested in raven's responses to all that, but it's too bad he's going to run to his team for advice (and wait 24 hours to respond to boot)

Yeah...this struck me at first as very suspicious...but considering everything that he posted, I'm willing to concede that it's probably one of his shenanigans (just look at his post right below that, for chrissake).

dwolfe
08-10-2011, 04:54 AM
-Dwolfe is kind of creeping me out.

Just wait until I break out the suit with the batnipples, then...if I live that long.

uh... i think you said stuff about me thinking post counts matter? no i just don't like people who DON'T post except to say something meaningless or unhelpful. with the town looking a wee bit paralyzed on Tuesday, i figured that by showing everyone who isn't posting we'd get to hear from those people - i'd like to think it worked on dwolfe

Actually, no, I was waiting for a role PM (i.e. a cure to my amnesia) so I knew where I stood in this game. When I got it the game was well under way, and it's going to take till late tonight to finally catch up with this thread. I make the worst batman ever, I'm supposed to be a step AHEAD, not behind.

WormRider
08-10-2011, 05:20 AM
Assuming that Law's power is weakest during 8/8 may be a bit too much. Since the sentence about Chaos' power being weakest during 0/8 was in bold and all, if there were a symmetric rule for Law, isn't it just logical that it would have made it into the rule in bold text as well?

And what does it mean by "chaos power is weakest" anyway? In an attempt to decide whether Raven is suspicious, I tried to think what the first interpretation I would come up with is, but it's really hard to not have confirmation bias. In any case, these are possibilities that are immediately or almost immediately obvious to me:

- maybe when there's a conflict among the result of different powers, non-Chaos powers will take precedence

- maybe some or all of their powers cannot be used. It would also be consistent with the rule that nightkills are performed by individuals rather than the mafia collectively: someone's ability may be "you can perform nightkills" (not a very interesting ability, heh) and is their faction's designated killer, and if they can't use it on 0/8, then their faction can't kill on 0/8

- maybe the mechanics of their powers interact with the mechanics of kagutsuchi somehow. I only thought of this possibility because it bothered me that there wasn't a similar statement about law powers being weakest at a different phase. If power roles are similar for both sides, this would make the game rather unbalanced. Maybe this just isn't the case because the factions just don't interact with each other that way, and chaos powers are just doing their own things with the kagutsuchi and we just made the non-existent connection that the kagutsuchi phases also affect other factions somehow. If the "aaaaOOOOOOOOOOfkjsdlwebeforeMAGATSUHIIIIIIIIeateat eatEAteaTEATTT72hr" for 8/8 was in any way implying that chaos' power are strongest during the 8/8 phase then this is also consistent: it's only about chaos, not about law.

In the end, however, I think it's a pretty big step from "chaos power is weakest at this phase" to "law players can only use their power at that phase", so I'd say that I'm slightly suspicious of Raven.

A side note: does it state in the rules anywhere that Law and Chaos oppose to Neutral? I think making it any other way would be too complicated for a mafia game; but if it doesn't say so I just can't help wondering whether that is the case or not (and my first reaction was also that Law and Neutral should be buddy-buddy). It is possible that Neutral's win condition is eliminating Chaos, while Chaos and Law's win conditions are the usual mafia win condition. This is actually what I was thinking when I wrote my first post in this thread; but now that I've thought more about it, it's more likely that there are smaller opposing factions whose members are drawn from more than one of the three main factions. In that case there would be players who belong to both Neutral and Secret Faction, and can probably choose which side they want to eventually align with... oh my, that would be an interesting role.

Dizzy
08-10-2011, 05:26 AM
My issue with Dizzy is that he is making a lot of fairly meaningless posts (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120303&postcount=76) and he is flying under the radar. He jumps on an easy bandwagon and has said nothing else all day. Yes, I find that behavior suspicious.

Luana is a bandwagon, huh?

Yimothy
08-10-2011, 05:54 AM
Assuming that Law's power is weakest during 8/8 may be a bit too much. Since the sentence about Chaos' power being weakest during 0/8 was in bold and all, if there were a symmetric rule for Law, isn't it just logical that it would have made it into the rule in bold text as well?

It's not actually bolded in the rules post, that was added to the quote for emphasis. Which is actually against the rules, which state that bold text is only to be used for voting.

A side note: does it state in the rules anywhere that Law and Chaos oppose to Neutral?

Looking again, I guess that that isn't explicitly stated, which is interesting, but I very much doubt that they are not in opposition. Law and Chaos both have getting control of the vote as a win condition, and for that to happen Neutral players will have to be removed. That's opposition. I guess if one of those factions gets control while there are still neutrals alive, they won't have to kill them anymore (since they already met their win condition), so they won't be opposed, meaning there'd be no more opposing factions to Neutral and Neutral would win as well as that faction. But that's pretty weak. And it doesn't fit with the flavour, which states that the winning side gets to recreate the world the way they like it. That would suggest only one winning side.

Kylie
08-10-2011, 06:02 AM
Raven reminds me of somebody. He's less talkative than Silent Noise, but his mistake:post ratio is just as high.

If this goes through and he's innocent, it'll be the worst bandwagon ever, and I'll be on it.

I accuse Raven

botticus
08-10-2011, 06:14 AM
Y'wha? I was town my first game, and when I did roll mafia I lasted several days before getting myself killed. Or do you mean new to the game, in which case you've provided your own counterexample - I did voice a strategy (admittedly, I didn't play it) that drew a lot of heat as a new Mafia guy.
I seem to recall you made what were considered newb moves your first game as town, which resulted in people (including me) lynching you on Day 1. So if someone reviewed past games, they wouldn't be smart to do similar things since it can kill them whether or not they claim newbie.

I'm a big fan of people making slips by revealing too much of what they learn from their role PM, so I accuse Raven. It's certainly possible he's just making assumptions, but that's no fun.

Knight
08-10-2011, 06:49 AM
Yea, this sounds too much like a slip up to me. So,

I vote Raven

Alpha Werewolf
08-10-2011, 07:16 AM
Oh hey look! Someone did the same thing I was suspicious of Lakupo for, and then backpedaled in the worst way possible.
Kylie's comparison to Silent Noise seems rather apt in this scenario, too. I have nothing else to add, considering that these are already all of Raven's posts in the thread.

Vote Raven

Raven
08-10-2011, 07:21 AM
It's not actually bolded in the rules post, that was added to the quote for emphasis. Which is actually against the rules, which state that bold text is only to be used for voting.


Ups sorry about that, I thought bolding quoted text is okay.

As for my defense, I have nothing more.to say....at this point. Nich, Solitayre, and WormRider perfectly obliterate my flimsy reasoning...and that is one hell of a flimsy reasoning (heck I rolled my eyes while I was typing all that)

breakman
08-10-2011, 07:52 AM
Hey, look, something crazy happened on Day 1. I thought I was just joking about that.

I accuse Raven

widdershins
08-10-2011, 08:04 AM
Luana is a bandwagon, huh?

Yeah guy. Dizzy done started that bandwagon -- get yer facts straight when you make accusations. That said, at least Luana's given a reason (and one I can confirm is true) for her low post count. Dizzy's tied with her, and hasn't got no internets to account for it.

But hey, way more interesting stuff has happened since then. Now, I don't have a problem with Raven's unfortunate assumption. Hell, I made the same inference, even if Destil wasn't asking for confirmation from the rules, but for insight based on Megaten vidja games -- why bother responding if you've just made the same guess he has. Even the backpedaling doesn't bother me too much -- we all fuck up sometimes, right?

No, what bugs the shit out of me is this:


...and I'm also pretty sure that some (or even most) powers can only be activated when the kagutsuchi corresponds to the players' alignment.

You know what? I'm neutral. And my power? Doesn't have any goddamn restrictions. If'n you think most powers have a restriction, I'm thinking maybe you're not on the same team I am.

Unvote

I accuse Raven

Guild
08-10-2011, 08:16 AM
Guild, I am not sure if you're intentionally being obtuse or not but it's getting pretty old.

?

blah blah i'm not trying to show you in a negative light necessarily blah blah

By the way, I'm glad that you've found your shift key and stopped complimenting me. Compliments always make me nervous.

This is also very interesting. How's he gonna run to his team for advice when standard TT mafia practice is his team can't confer until the night phase, which is close to two real world days away?

Are you able to run to your team for advice even as we speak, Guild?

Yeah. Watch.

Hey guys, should I vote for Raven?

Teams and talking: Sometimes I forget the specific rules and think about the general ones. In every game I've ever been in, the wolves get to talk secretly at all times. If this is not the case in TT mafia, you're pretty unique, honestly.

Capitalization: Most of the time I'm typing sans keyboard with a stylus, hence lack of capitalization (though sometimes I'm faking it because I'm lazy).

Compliments: They were more about getting more of the same out of others than specifically making you feel any particular way. I'm glad I make you nervous regardless of how! You're also a very attractive man.

Unvote and I accuse Raven. Ain't no stoppin' this train!

Guild
08-10-2011, 08:25 AM
I'm gonna say this now, so I can look really stupid when both Guild and Raven turn up innocent: This is why we theorymance.

I vote Guild

Reasonless votes make me smile. With joy. You will never get a rope on my neck with that silliness, Yimothy! And you were doing so well!

widdershins
08-10-2011, 08:27 AM
Reasonless votes make me smile. With joy. You will never get a rope on my neck with that silliness, Yimothy! And you were doing so well!

Dude spent an entire post talking about how he thinks you post redundant and needlessly longwinded things, and heavily implied that he thought you were padding your postcount. Not that I agree with him, but even if there's nothing in that particular post, it's hardly reasonless.

Guild
08-10-2011, 08:30 AM
Dude spent an entire post talking about how he thinks you post redundant and needlessly longwinded things, and heavily implied that he thought you were padding your postcount. Not that I agree with him, but even if there's nothing in that particular post, it's hardly reasonless.

He specifically said he WASN'T accusing, and agreed with me that his posts lacked any attacks. He even said he was merely 'pointing at things', ostensibly at random with no real meaning implied! What more do you want than his own words?

"I understand what the question was asking, but I don't understand why you asked it like that. That's why I was accusation free (and non-voting!). I don't see it as a move for either side. The other reason is that I wasn't trying to build a case against you, I was trying to demonstrate that not all posts are created equal, and people looking at post counts should remember that. And I linked to your posts. If people think what you've said makes you look like a lunatic, they can follow the links and see if it makes more sense in context."

widdershins
08-10-2011, 08:35 AM
Hrm, point. And the preceding post does make it look like he's voting for you 'cause you thought mafioso could talk amongst themselves during the day.

Okay, snark retracted.

Guild
08-10-2011, 08:49 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure that this happened:



Because of the last thing he said beforehand, which is this:



You might as well look at my Raven accusation post divorced from the context of the previous post where I gave reasoning and say it was contentless too. I'm not switching my vote off Raven today, but I still got my eye on you for the same actual reasons Yimothy had, which you're pretending didn't exist.

That's fair, but I can't defend against "This is how we play and you KNOW THAT DON'T YOU!! DON'T YOU!!!!1" ...no, I honestly didn't. I've since learned!

My point is that he didn't state it in the actual post. It's Solitayre all over again. It would be nice to stay ambiguous forever so I could reinterpret everything I say when called out later, but I'd rather give that right up so I can force others to also give up said right.

He can now say anything he likes as being his reason for voting, letting YOU, who are NOT him, draw your OWN conclusions and be as wrong or right as your own perception will make you.

See, if he's mafia, his reasons are bullcrap, so by not stating them he avoids having to lie, which means we can't catch him as easily. I REALIZE THAT this logic only marginally applies to this situation, but I thought I'd explain where I was coming from.

that siad, i voted raven without explicitly stating a reason, so 8V

It was because I think he's chaos who made a slip.

Raven
08-10-2011, 09:02 AM
You know what? I'm neutral. And my power? Doesn't have any goddamn restrictions. If'n you think most powers have a restriction, I'm thinking maybe you're not on the same team I am.

Unvote

I accuse Raven

.....Ah. Now this one is worth responding to.

Let's assume that I'm a Neutral who can only activate my power at 04/08 (hypothetically, of course), and a noob (also hypothetically) who doesn't read rules thoroughly and miss that part when Vorpal said that "everyone had powers...some more than others". In that case, isn't it logical that when I see my role PM, I'd assume that everyone else's powers are restricted as well?

Not that I'm antagonizing your opinion or something like that, but I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your peculiar suspicion....since you're implying that everyone in the same faction would have the same restriction/non-restriction.

....and either way, thanks for the information that you're able to use your power in more than one Kagutsuchi phase.

McClain
08-10-2011, 09:08 AM
Goddamn computer keeps crashing...


A) Show your working. Don't make me have to go looking back through the thread for whatever you're talking about, quote it or link (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120472&postcount=116) to it.
B) You think he's suspicious because his reason for voting for someone was justifiable?
C) I'll give you a reason why you shouldn't kill him: your reason why you should kill him is stupid.
D) Do you also require everyone else to explain why you shouldn't kill them for no reason?

My issue with Dizzy is that he is making a lot of fairly meaningless posts (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1120303&postcount=76) and he is flying under the radar. He jumps on an easy bandwagon and has said nothing else all day. Yes, I find that behavior suspicious.

What? His vote was the first for Luana, and he gave a decent Day 1 reason for it! You are slinging some serious bullshit here.

Vote Solitayre

*finish reading the thread*

...

...

...


Yeah, wow, I'm the guy who's always like "day one lawl!" and even I didn't miss that.

Sorry newbie, you done fucked up. Better luck in M15.

I accuse Raven.


As for my defense, I have nothing more.to say....at this point. Nich, Solitayre, and WormRider perfectly obliterate my flimsy reasoning...and that is one hell of a flimsy reasoning (heck I rolled my eyes while I was typing all that)


Yeah, I was all ready to call some kind of bullshit on the Raven rally, but it just kept going, and even Brickroad gets excited about it, and then the kicker is Raven does a non-defense thing that just reeks of mafia trying to clam up and not give any more information when they've been caught.

Unless you got something real special up your sleeve, I vote for Raven

Sol, you still have my attention.

Raven
08-10-2011, 09:24 AM
Yeah, I was all ready to call some kind of bullshit on the Raven rally, but it just kept going, and even Brickroad gets excited about it, and then the kicker is Raven does a non-defense thing that just reeks of mafia trying to clam up and not give any more information when they've been caught.



Wait, can you specify why and how you call that rally against me "some kind of bullshit"? You know, before the whole non-defense thing...

And I'm also kind of curious on why Brickroad's anticipation apparently play a large part in your stance.

McClain
08-10-2011, 09:29 AM
Wait, can you specify why and how you call that rally against me "some kind of bullshit"? You know, before the whole non-defense thing...

And I'm also kind of curious on why Brickroad's anticipation apparently play a large part in your stance.

Quick rallies in general just make my hairs stand on end. I wasn't sure about it until I saw you seemingly lie down to take it (though you seem more perky now).

The Brickroad thing was mostly just me taking another shot at him.

widdershins
08-10-2011, 09:36 AM
Let's assume that I'm a Neutral who can only activate my power at 04/08 (hypothetically, of course), and a noob (also hypothetically) who doesn't read rules thoroughly and miss that part when Vorpal said that "everyone had powers...some more than others". In that case, isn't it logical that when I see my role PM, I'd assume that everyone else's powers are restricted as well?

Hypothetically, that's perfectly plausible.

Non-hypothetically, I'm gonna need to see a show of hands from any other Neutral characters that have phase limitations on their powers. My bullshit detector's going wild here and without at least some corroboration, I'm gonna have a hard time believing you, given what I'm privy to from my own power.

poetfox
08-10-2011, 09:37 AM
Mm, well, that was a nice night at work and a good night's sleep, let's just check in the ol' Mafia thread...

Oh. Huh.

I vote Raven.

Something strange is going on there, and it certainly seems to be the most solid bit of slip-up we have to work with. Even if Day One is a "roll the dice" scenario, Raven seems a bit more likely, at the very least. It also potentially gives the town information about how Law works if things go super well. I like that idea.

Guild
08-10-2011, 09:48 AM
After Raven I'm most suspicious of Widdershins for this tidbit from page 2ish, in addition to fishing for roles recently:

"Whether that translates to an average of one night kill per night across the board or something else is too early for me to guess."

...and Nich for reaffirming a vote - i consider it to be like how an evangelist can't just mention hell, they have to talk about the flames and sell the brimstone: If something is true it's usually self-evident and doesn't need someone to stand on a box and reaffirm their opinion on it for others to agree, in addition to the factor of how the hell does Nich have such a sure opinion on page freaking three of D1?

So my list is: Raven, Widdershins, Nich and Solitayre (Sol's only a very weak suspect)

And for some reason I got an evil vibe off McClain, but I can't quantify it so I'm just ignoring it as best I can. Maybe I suspect him for the same reason he's a day one crash test dummy: He's possibly subtly off-putting to paranoid people.

kaisel
08-10-2011, 09:49 AM
.....Ah. Now this one is worth responding to.

Let's assume that I'm a Neutral who can only activate my power at 04/08 (hypothetically, of course), and a noob (also hypothetically) who doesn't read rules thoroughly and miss that part when Vorpal said that "everyone had powers...some more than others". In that case, isn't it logical that when I see my role PM, I'd assume that everyone else's powers are restricted as well?

Not that I'm antagonizing your opinion or something like that, but I'm just curious about the reasoning behind your peculiar suspicion....since you're implying that everyone in the same faction would have the same restriction/non-restriction.

....and either way, thanks for the information that you're able to use your power in more than one Kagutsuchi phase.

Huh. Unless everyone's powers work differently (which is a possibility), this here seals my vote.

I vote for Raven.

Even if we do give up information (either on Widds' specific powers, or powers at large), I think this is a good information trade, we'll at least have one lead to go on, if this pans out.

Raven
08-10-2011, 09:56 AM
I vote Raven.

Something strange is going on there, and it certainly seems to be the most solid bit of slip-up we have to work with. Even if Day One is a "roll the dice" scenario, Raven seems a bit more likely, at the very least. It also potentially gives the town information about how Law works if things go super well. I like that idea.

...this reeks of soft bandwagoning. Elaborating on the accusation without actually saying anything, eh? Smells like a fishy fox....and I had strong belief that you're one of the most dangerous and subtle player here.

widdershins
08-10-2011, 09:59 AM
And for some reason I got an evil vibe off McClain, but I can't quantify it so I'm just ignoring it as best I can.

Dont' worry. He'll probably get night killed on night one. :3
This is a TT mafia inside joke, and not a threat, before you go there.


Even if we do give up information (either on Widds' specific powers, or powers at large), I think this is a good information trade, we'll at least have one lead to go on, if this pans out.

I have absolutely no intention in giving up the specifics of my power. But if any neutral characters have phase restrictions, I'd sure love to hear it since, for my money, that's the only way Raven has a prayer of living to see tomorrow.

poetfox
08-10-2011, 10:03 AM
Hey, Raven! Please to be telling me how my accusation and justification is any worse than, I dunno, this one (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1121205&postcount=233). Or this one (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1121168&postcount=226). Or this one (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1121222&postcount=235). Or this one (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1121232&postcount=236). Or this one (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1121250&postcount=238). Because I'm really interested as to why I'm the one who's fishy. I really am. Seems more like you're flailing at the last person to accuse to try to draw from attention away from yourself, amirite?

Raven
08-10-2011, 10:11 AM
Damn, this game is exciting. (please don't overanalyze this sentence though)

Seems more like you're flailing at the last person to accuse to try to draw from attention away from yourself, amirite?

1)There is still, like, more than 24 hours before the judgment time....isn't it rather stupid to start flailing now? And you're certainly not the "last person" who will accuse me.

2) I'm not accusing you at all.

As for those others you mentioned, the fact that I didn't question them doesn't necessarily mean that I don't have opinion on them.

And you know, you just sort of attracted my attention ever since your very first post. Just a hunch, although a strong one.

widdershins
08-10-2011, 10:14 AM
Well I am lazy, so she had that part right, for whatever that's worth. :)

poetfox
08-10-2011, 10:18 AM
1)There is still, like, more than 24 hours before the judgment time....isn't it rather stupid to start flailing now? And you're certainly not the "last person" who will accuse me.

Not in the least. If you want any chance of changing the minds of busy people who are on your case, and may not be around much during that period, due to time zones, etc, it's stupid not to try to take SOME action now. You're throwing out random bullshit and seeing what sticks. All it would take is someone else going "Durr hurr, you know, I did think poetfox was acting odd" and then you'd jump on that shit like crazy. You're going to keep throwing out other little bits of bait like that and hoping someone bites, either a rather stupid teammate who decided they wanted to be associated with your guilty ass, or a patsy from the good ol' team neutral.

Widds, stop breaking the rules and using bold text for things that aren't votes. Although I do think that Am is a bit suspicious. You may be right to vote for him.

widdershins
08-10-2011, 10:25 AM
Well I am lazy enough not to read the rules too.

Raven
08-10-2011, 10:28 AM
Whoa, no need to be so overly defensive there. Believe me, I know better than to just call one random guy (or girl)....WITH NO VOTE AGAINST HIM/HER AT ALL... and hope that enough people will somehow follow through and . Let's say that you're right and I'm just flailing around, why don't I just go after Guild over there, who is clearly a much easier and obvious target than you?

Hmm...not knowing the characteristic pattern of TT Mafia players is a huge handicap to me, so I can't really figure out whether you lashing out like this is uncharacteristic or not. But, it seems you're not as subtle as I thought.

Raven
08-10-2011, 10:30 AM
Ups, sorry.

Whoa, no need to be so overly defensive there. Believe me, I know better than to just call one random guy (or girl)....WITH NO VOTE AGAINST HIM/HER AT ALL... and hope that enough people will somehow follow through and make your vote surpass mine

kaisel
08-10-2011, 10:45 AM
I have absolutely no intention in giving up the specifics of my power. But if any neutral characters have phase restrictions, I'd sure love to hear it since, for my money, that's the only way Raven has a prayer of living to see tomorrow.

Ah, shit, I had meant the information given up by you saying that Neutral powers don't have restrictions (according to your information), or information that came out contradicting that. Definitely do not want to know your specific power(s).

pointzeroeight
08-10-2011, 11:04 AM
A side note: does it state in the rules anywhere that Law and Chaos oppose to Neutral? I think making it any other way would be too complicated for a mafia game; but if it doesn't say so I just can't help wondering whether that is the case or not (and my first reaction was also that Law and Neutral should be buddy-buddy). It is possible that Neutral's win condition is eliminating Chaos, while Chaos and Law's win conditions are the usual mafia win condition.

From what I know of SMT, all Reasons oppose each other. Pretty sure the idea is to recreate the world based on your faction/alignment's Reason, and there are too many conflicting interests for there to really be alliances between them.

Then again, I could be entirely wrong and the factions could be going by something entirely different, though I think it's a bit unlikely given the setting.

Shijima

"All at one with the world."

Shijima is the Reason of Hikawa. It is based on stillness and oneness. It is a world of perfect harmony, without self, without passion, without conflict, without destruction. Individuality is eradicated and there is simply a collective inner peace in which everyone is equal to God. This collective functions as cogs in the giant, stable machine that is the universe. It is a nihilistic, lawful reason that is in someways related to the concept of Nirvana. Its demonic sponsor is Ahriman and is based on the Law Alignment of the previous Shin Megami Tensei games.

Musubi

"I am the center of the world."

Musubi is the reason of Isamu Nitta. It is based on solitude and isolation. The self is absolute, and every living being would live in an independent world, completely separate from all other living beings. The individual could use their mind to shape their world at will into their own personal paradise, without consequences or unwelcome interference of others. The name Musubi may possibly refer to the mystical power of becoming or of creation in Shinto religion. It is a neutral, solitary reason which resembles the philosophy of Rene Descartes. Its demonic sponsor is Noah, and is based on the Neutral Alignment of the previous Shin Megami Tensei games.

Yosuga

"The world only needs beautiful things."

Yosuga is the Reason of Chiaki Tachibana. It is a Reason based on elitism and survival of the fittest. Those who are useless and weak do not deserve to live and would be purged from society. Only those who are strong may rule, and power is acknowledged as the only thing of value. The weak will forever serve the strong. While Chiaki created this Reason in order to be safe from ever becoming weak or lower class, it is a Reason of paranoia and fear, in which she would always have to look over her shoulder and fear being overthrown. It is a chaotic reason that can be seen as related to the philosophy of Darwinism. Its demonic sponsor is Baal Avatar and is based on the Chaos Alignment of the previous Shin Megami Tensei games.