PDA

View Full Version : Mafia Game 15: MafiaHack II


Pages : [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

dtsund
09-30-2011, 07:51 PM
The Amulet of Yendor beckons trav'lers far and wide,
Yet everyone who's sought it has been done in by their pride.
They look ahead to fortune, fame, and wealth with bated breath,
But in the end, the dungeon greets all challengers with death.

Some met a hissing cockatrice, and stiffened in surprise,
Some careless souls advanced and saw Medusa with their eyes,
Still others seemed to think those eels would never reach ashore,
And even still, the blackened depths have far worse things in store.

But there were those who thought they could these crimson fates defy,
If they could find the Amulet, it seemed, no more would die.
"It's time to put an end to this!" and so they did begin,
"Where one will fail," they thought aloud, "perhaps nineteen would win?"

Oh were it quite that simple, would that they need never strive,
Some nineteen of them had set forth, yet here are twenty-five!
It seems that some outsiders here would like to interpose,
No heptagram nor Elbereth will save you from these foes...

Hello, player, welcome to MafiaHack! (For instructions type a ?)

?

Among you are a number of outsiders, who take a somewhat dim view on your goal to claim the Amulet of Yendor as a group. If they ever kill enough of you to match your numbers, it will be over for you.

Thankfully, there's a handy shopkeeper nearby willing to sell his wares to the highest bidder. Sadly, he won't tell you what any of the items do; while all Potions of Speed will be the same color, for example, you won't initially know what that color is. At the start of each day phase, in addition to opening discussion and allowing voting, a number of items will be put up for bids, selected at random; each player may use some or all of their starting money to bid on the items. Bids are done by PM; the other players don't get to see your bids. The player who bids the most on an item at the end of the day wins it, but must surrender his bid's worth of money regardless of what the other players bid. You may keep changing your bid until the night phase begins. Ties will be resolved randomly. Winning an item gives you the ability to use that item, but the power may be one-time use in nature, disappearing after use. If you die, the items in your possession are not revealed. Outsiders may bid on and use items, the same as other players.

Each day, 5 + 1d2 items will be offered for bidding.

You may not give your money to anyone else. You may, however, give items away at any time; PM me and I'll transfer the item to the other player's inventory at the end of the current phase.

Everyone starts with the indicated amount of spending money.

Roles:

The outsiders are this game's Mafia, and act accordingly. They may individually bid on and use items. Regardless of when they submit their nightkill choice, the kill is the last thing to happen that night. With the full resources of Moloch behind them, they get 65 zorkmids each.

The players are this game's Citizens. They get powers only from the use of items. They get 50 zorkmids each.

The wizard starts with no money, but 3 + 1d2 random-ish* items from the below list, plus a free Scroll of Mail, identified and all.

The tourist is identical to the regular players, except that he starts with 65 zorkmids instead of 50.

Additionally, 1d4 innocent (non-Wizard) players will start with a known Scroll of Identify.

All items take the form of potions, scrolls, wands, or rings. Rings act passively; simply having it in your inventory is enough to enjoy the effects. Potions can either be drunk (giving you the effects) or thrown (giving someone else of your choice the effects). Scrolls can be read for the desired effect, but will crumble to dust when used. Wands can be zapped at another player, living or dead; each wand has only one charge on it, however, so it can only be used once. Used wands do not leave your inventory (because they can potentially be recharged).

Items are as follows. All items must be used during the night phase; no day phase use is permitted. When an item is used, the effect takes place at the end of the night (except for the Scroll of Charging, which takes place immediately; you may charge and zap a wand in a single night). Where conflicts in the players' usage of items may arise, the Scroll of Confuse Monster takes highest priority; the Scroll of Stinking Cloud gets lowest priority.



Potions: All potions are identified to the user on use. If thrown, they are also identified to the recipient.

Water: Does nothing but identify itself to the user when used. Note to NetHack players: water will not have the appearance of a 'clear potion'.

Sickness: The player will be too sick to talk much the next day; he will only be able to accuse and vote.

Hallucination: The player may speak during the next day phase, but not vote, on account of having too much trouble telling everyone apart.

Invisibility: The players cannot find you, so they don't bother trying to lynch you the following day. You also cannot be killed the following night. This is public knowledge.

Object detection: Shows the inventories of all players to you, including deceased players.

Speed: You move so fast that you get to have two votes the following day. This is public knowledge.

Enlightenment: You learn the identity of a player of your choice.



Jewelery:

Ring of Adornment: Does absolutely nothing.

Ring of Life Saving: Will protect you from one mortal blow; crumbles to dust after saving you. Automatically identifies itself when it takes effect.

Ring of Searching: You may see which player won one of the items up for bids each day. Automatically identifies itself when it takes effect.

Ring of Warning: You can tell when something is coming for you; if you are nightkilled and have this in your possession, you'll be able to leave the town a posthumous message. Identified upon purchase; each night, you will send me a message in case you are killed.

Ring of Free Action: Blocks the effects of the Potion of Sickness, Wand of Sleep, and Potion of Hallucination, and Scroll of Confuse Monster. Automatically identifies itself when it takes effect.



Scrolls: All scrolls automatically identify themselves when read and crumble to dust when used.

Scroll of Blank Paper: Does nothing.

Scroll of Identify: Will be weighted to show up relatively frequently. Allows you to learn the powers of one of your unknown items.

Scroll of Confuse Monster: Prevents another player, of your choice from taking action that night.

Scroll of Charging: Adds a charge to a wand of your choice. No effect if you have no wands.

Scroll of Scare Monster: Does nothing but identify itself when read! However, if you have it in your possession, you cannot be targeted by the outsiders for a nightkill (that is to say, you'll live through their kill attempt). Crumbles to dust when it protects you. You can still be targeted by a Scroll of Stinking Cloud from any source, however.

Scroll of Mail: May be used to send another player a confidential message that night. PM the message to me and I will forward it to the recipient. Additionally, on future nights, you will be able to privately confer with the recipient.

Scroll of Stinking Cloud: Surrounds the player of your choice with toxic gases, killing him or her. If you wish, you may choose to target it at nobody.



Wands: All wands start with one charge and automatically identify themselves when zapped.

Wand of Nothing: Does nothing.

Wand of Cancellation: Destroys a random item in your targets possession. Will not destroy items used in the same night as the zap.

Wand of Wishing: You may wish for any other item on this list, OR 50 more zorkmids.

Wand of Digging: Allows you to retrieve the items held by one deceased player. Zapping it at a living player will waste the wand's charge.

Wand of Sleep: Puts one player to sleep the following day; they may not talk or vote.

Wand of Striking: No effect, except that your target knows he or she was zapped, and by whom.



Item generation: Each non-Wizard item initially has a 25% chance of being a Scroll of Identify, and a further 10% chance of being a Scroll of Mail (so a 35% chance of being one of these). After that (and in the starting inventory of the Wizard, with the noted exceptions), all items are equally likely.

Accusations and voting will be done as in the last several games (you may vote for anyone at any time, barring item effects, and whomever has the most votes at the end of a day is killed). The identities of lynched players are made publicly known; the identities of nightkilled players are made known to the killer.

Game flow will be as follows:

Start of day --> Bids and voting --> End of day --> Item awards, money removal, and gifts --> Lynch --> Start of night --> Night chat and item use that does not affect other players --> End of night --> Item use that can affect other players but not kill them --> Item use that can kill other players --> Outsiders' nightkill --> Start of day.



*The wizard will not start with a Scroll of Identify or Wand of Wishing. Additionally, he will not start with a Scroll of Charging if he has no wand.



To forestall shenanigans:

You are a Neutral Male Human Monk: that is to say, a Citizen. You start with 50 zorkmids.

For the sake of us all: go bravely with Chih Sung-tzu!


Players:

botticus
breakman
Brickroad
chady
Destil
dwolfe
Eddie
Egarwaen
Guild
Heron
kaisel
Karzac
Krakenbrau
Luana
Martinet
namelessentity
Nich
Nodal
poetfox
schep
Solitayre
spineshark
Umby
WormRider
Yimothy



Items up for bid day 1:

ORIGINAL IDS:

a - a scroll labeled READ ME
b - a long wand
c - a scroll labeled LEP GEX VEN ZEA
d - a jeweled wand
e - a brilliant blue potion
f - a scroll labeled HACKEM MUCHE
g - a pine wand

NEW IDS:

a - a scroll labeled READ ME
b - a jeweled wand
c - a scroll labeled LEP GEX VEN ZEA
d - a crystal wand
e - a swirly potion
f - a scroll labeled KERNOD WEL
g - a pine wand


Day ends 72 hours from now, at 10 PM EST / 7 PM PST.

Karzac
09-30-2011, 07:56 PM
Not a bad choice, Mr. Wizard, but I think I'll stick with tradition here.

I accuse Brickroad.

Umby
09-30-2011, 07:56 PM
Well, that was quick. I'm glad Nich could start the game with an obvious lynch. That isn't suspicious at all, nope. Closing my eyes to that.

Destil
09-30-2011, 08:01 PM
I accuse Brickroad.

We're done here for today, right?

dwolfe
09-30-2011, 08:07 PM
I engrave ElberethElberethElberethElberethElbereth, and then enter "n72." to last until nightfall.

Solitayre
09-30-2011, 08:12 PM
Name an individual object?

y

What do you want to name this runed dagger?

Sting



Hail, fellow adventurers. I have journeyed far in search of a certain artifact.

None of you happen to have seen a ring around here anywhere, have you?

Eddie
09-30-2011, 08:14 PM
Any guesses as to what these outsiders could be? Also, I believe it'd be a good idea to reveal our race/alignment/class stats for Potion of Enlightenment purposes (the Wizard would obvious lie however, and maybe the outsiders depending on whether dtsund has given them ones or not). It sounds like it's just best to do this now.

Any one disagree?

- Eddie

dtsund
09-30-2011, 08:17 PM
To clarify: The Potion of Enlightenment simply reveals innocence/guilt.

Destil
09-30-2011, 08:17 PM
Last I heard Brick was handing it off to some Hobbit...

Any guesses as to what these outsiders could be? Also, I believe it'd be a good idea to reveal our race/alignment/class stats for Potion of Enlightenment purposes (the Wizard would obvious lie however, and maybe the outsiders depending on whether dtsund has given them ones or not). It sounds like it's just best to do this now.

Any one disagree?

- Eddie

I'll take that bet, Eddie.

Lawful Female Human Archeologist

Karzac
09-30-2011, 08:18 PM
You may want to check dtsund's post there, Mrs. Wizard. Revealing won't do any good.

Destil
09-30-2011, 08:19 PM
To clarify: The Potion of Enlightenment simply reveals innocence/guilt.

To clarify: archaeology and law was just my minors.

Eddie
09-30-2011, 08:20 PM
I'm a Lawful Male Human Knight and I'm totally all about Lugh.

I think it'd be a good idea to reveal anyway. What's the harm?

- Eddie

Krakenbrau
09-30-2011, 08:24 PM
I'm a Lawful Male Human Knight and I'm totally all about Lugh.

I think it'd be a good idea to reveal anyway. What's the harm?

- Eddie

I'll bite.

I am a Lawful Female Human Knight, also a fan of Lugh. I suspect we may be companions/related/partners.

Solitayre
09-30-2011, 08:31 PM
I think there are enough people here steeped in NetHack lore that reveals are completely worthless, but whatever.

I am A Chaotic Male Human Rogue. I go bravely with Kos.

(dtsund wouldn't let me be an actual Hobbit even though they DO exist in NetHack, but he can't stop me as playing as one to spite him.)

Karzac
09-30-2011, 08:32 PM
Well, if it doesn't serve any actual purpose, it just sends the conversation nowhere, doesn't it? But I guess if all the cool kids are doing it...

I'm a Neutral Female Elven Monk and I'm all about Chih Sung-tzu.

So what's the point of this?

dwolfe
09-30-2011, 08:39 PM
I feel hungry. Does anyone have any pancakes or C-rations? I'd even take a cream pie.

Krakenbrau
09-30-2011, 08:53 PM
So what's the point of this?

There is none.

Actually, I think we might be able to learn some things.

For example, Solitayre claims chaotic alignment. If his role PM really does say chaotic, and if he is an outsider, and since he will (I assume) have had no contact with the other outsiders yet (so no way for him to find out their alignments) a logical assumption would be that outsiders are chaotically aligned and citizens are not. If that were the case, the safe play would be to claim a lawful alignment.

This could be evidence of his innocence. Or, it could be nothing. But something to think about, perhaps.

Although, I really know next to nothing about NetHack (DCSS for me) so maybe my thinking here flies in the face of the lore.

schep
09-30-2011, 08:54 PM
Greetings, travelers. I am schep the neutral male human Barbarian. Crom says I should work with the lot of you to find the Amulet. But something feels wrong here.

I feel hungry. Does anyone have any pancakes or C-rations? I'd even take a cream pie.

I'll share some cram.

Eddie
09-30-2011, 08:54 PM
Come on dwolfe. What are you, aside from hungry?

- Eddie

Yimothy
09-30-2011, 08:57 PM
I don't think we can read much into the flavour roles. I don't remember them mattering last time. What I do remember mattering last time is whether or not you can use a scroll of identity to find out what something does and then use the identified item that same night. The rules seem to me to say you can't, but they seemed to say that last time, too.

Karzac
09-30-2011, 09:01 PM
Could you do that last time? The only item I ever identified in M10 was a Ring, so I never found myself in that situation.

Eddie
09-30-2011, 09:03 PM
If we can agree there is no harm in posting flavor roles, then why not post them? Unless of course, you don't have one (or are the wizard) then yeah I guess that sucks to be you!

Put another way: we've got no information to work with right now. A little information is better than none, right?

- Eddie

spineshark
09-30-2011, 09:03 PM
Yes.

Fuck you.

Krakenbrau
09-30-2011, 09:03 PM
I don't think we can read much into the flavour roles. I don't remember them mattering last time.

Yes, I agree that flavour roles probably have little to do with mechanical roles. What I'm saying is if Solitayre were an outsider, and had no way of knowing how important the flavour is, and his role PM said he was chaotic, the safest play for him would be to claim lawful or neutral.

I'm not saying this is definitive proof of his innocence. I just think that there are some things we could learn by revealing our flavour roles.

spineshark
09-30-2011, 09:04 PM
Dammit, that was in response to Karzac. I'm a Chaotic Female Elf Priest.

Considering how many people came out as lawful, I'm pretty much guaranteeing you that this game is the opposite of M14.

Karzac
09-30-2011, 09:06 PM
Dammit, that was in response to Karzac. I'm a Chaotic Female Elf Priest.

Considering how many people came out as lawful, I'm pretty much guaranteeing you that this game is the opposite of M14.

Wait, why fuck me? And what do you mean "opposite of M14"?

breakman
09-30-2011, 09:07 PM
All items must be used during the night phase; no day phase use is permitted. When an item is used, the effect takes place at the end of the night (except for the Scroll of Charging, which takes place immediately; you may charge and zap a wand in a single night).

That sounds pretty definitive to me.

I'm a Neutral Male Gnome Archeologist, btw.

Yimothy
09-30-2011, 09:10 PM
Actually, here's what I think we can learn from flavour roles: It looks kind of like people with the same alignment/race/job have the same god (Eddie and Krakenbrau both claim Lugh, anyway). So if anyone else is a Neutral Female Gnome Ranger (or similar) worshiping Venus, then you might be inclined to think I'm telling the truth about my claim. Does that mean I'm innocent? Yet to be proven.

Or maybe Krakenbrau just latched onto the first thing that came up to claim an innocent role.

Umby
09-30-2011, 09:15 PM
I'm a I am a Neutral Female Human Barbarian.

Karzac
09-30-2011, 09:18 PM
I'm a I am a Neutral Female Human Barbarian.

Umby, did you actually just stutter as you typed that?

Destil
09-30-2011, 09:18 PM
Also... I think there's a secret message in my role PM.

Quetzalcoatl


Brickroad and Eddie present...
a Brickroad and Luana joint...
Mafia XV:
The Organization: Part II
The Airship Quetzalcoatl

Karzac
09-30-2011, 09:19 PM
You'll never escape his thrall, Destil.

Umby
09-30-2011, 09:20 PM
I hate to double post, but I forgot to put that I follow Crom. Any men who are afraid to put the god they worship are no men I consider to be, uh, men.

Umby
09-30-2011, 09:23 PM
Umby, did you actually just stutter as you typed that?

Y-y-y-you know what Popeye said, Karzac, don't you? I yam w-w-w-what I yam. I am very s-s-serious about my s-s-s-stutter.

spineshark
09-30-2011, 09:36 PM
Wait, why fuck me? And what do you mean "opposite of M14"?
Because I almost got lynched for making a claim about this in M10, even though there was no reasonable way to link the veracity of that claim to my affiliation in the game. Accusations related to the actual action I performed were just as misguided, but a little easier to understand.

In M14, alignment was everything. Good or Evil. In M10, and this game, I take it to be nothing. There is no information inherently present in a player's alignment.

spineshark
09-30-2011, 09:42 PM
Upon further investigation.
Start of day --> Bids and voting --> End of day --> Item awards, money removal, and gifts --> Lynch --> Start of night --> Night chat and item use that does not affect other players --> End of night --> Item use that can affect other players but not kill them --> Item use that can kill other players --> Outsiders' nightkill --> Start of day.
I feel that this is as unambiguous as it's going to be. I read this as "personal item use resolves before the end of night period.

Karzac
09-30-2011, 09:47 PM
So then we probably can identify and use an item in the same night.

breakman
09-30-2011, 09:48 PM
The part I quoted says only the Scroll of Charging works that way. I think we need a clarification.

Yimothy
09-30-2011, 09:49 PM
That sounds pretty definitive to me..

The rule was the same in M10, and that seemed definitive to me until spineshark was able to identify an item and then use it that same night. Hope there's no hard feelings about that, spine.

The sequence of events is still ambiguous to me. "Item use that does not affect other players" sounds like it would include identification, except that if you identify something and then use it one someone, there's an effect on them.

Destil
09-30-2011, 09:51 PM
The identification aspect doesn't affect other players. Seems crystal clear to me.

You could drink a potion and find out its effects before you have to choose who you're throwing a potion at, for instance. One affects you, one doesn't.

Krakenbrau
09-30-2011, 09:54 PM
The identification aspect doesn't affect other players. Seems crystal clear to me.

You could drink a potion and find out its effects before you have to choose who you're throwing a potion at, for instance. One affects you, one doesn't.

Yeah, this is how I understood it.

WormRider
09-30-2011, 09:58 PM
I am a Lawful Male Human Archeologist, and I follow Quetzalcoatl.

Is it safe to assume that the mapping of name and actual item in this game is not the same as M10? I think the answer is obviously yes; but hey, it doesn't hurt to ask, especially since there was also a scroll labeled HACKEM MUCHE last game.

By the way, I'm disappointed that the READ ME scroll is not REAMDE.

breakman
09-30-2011, 09:59 PM
The rule was the same in M10, and that seemed definitive to me until spineshark was able to identify an item and then use it that same night. Hope there's no hard feelings about that, spine.

All the more reason for a clarification then. How about it, dtsund? Please?

Karzac
09-30-2011, 10:05 PM
The identification aspect doesn't affect other players. Seems crystal clear to me.

You could drink a potion and find out its effects before you have to choose who you're throwing a potion at, for instance. One affects you, one doesn't.

Except you can't drink a potion and throw it. It's one or the other, I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, this rules mongering is fun and all, but does anybody have any actually useful ideas to contribute?

I've got one: it seemed to me that one of the Mafia's biggest advantages last game was that they had way more information than the town. Once one person identified an item, all of them knew it. So I propose that we level the playing field a bit. I think that if you use an item which has a public effect that you should tell us what is was (i.e., it's auction list description). That way, we know what to avoid/go for in the future, as well as narrowing the possibilities for what other items could be.

Obviously, don't do this for private effects, like Identify, Wishing, Life-Saving, etc. But I think that once it's clear that an item's been used (e.g. Sickness), there's no problem in revealing it. Sure, it gives the Outsiders that info as well, but like I said, there's a good chance they've already got it.

Thoughts?

spineshark
09-30-2011, 10:08 PM
The rule was the same in M10, and that seemed definitive to me until spineshark was able to identify an item and then use it that same night. Hope there's no hard feelings about that, spine.

The sequence of events is still ambiguous to me. "Item use that does not affect other players" sounds like it would include identification, except that if you identify something and then use it one someone, there's an effect on them.
Nah, I'm not actually pissed.

Aside from that, "Identify Blue Potion" and "Throw Blue Potion at Destil" are two separate events. Again, last game I sent a message asking to use my scrolls first, and when one returned as Identify, I then used it on the Potion. Then sent a third message to use the potion.

This game? If I use any items, I'm going to pretend it was blind even if it wasn't. Fuck that.

Destil
09-30-2011, 10:08 PM
Is it safe to assume that the mapping of name and actual item in this game is not the same as M10? I think the answer is obviously yes; but hey, it doesn't hurt to ask, especially since there was also a scroll labeled HACKEM MUCHE last game.

Scrolls of HACKEM MUCHE is a nethack thing. (http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Randomized_appearance)

Except you can't drink a potion and throw it. It's one or the other, I'm pretty sure.For values of potion count greater than one.

dtsund
09-30-2011, 10:31 PM
The Scroll of Identify functions instantly.

Additionally, I will here endorse the use of http://nethackwiki.com instead of http://nethack.wikia.com.

Eddie
09-30-2011, 10:33 PM
Boring.

So... any more Knights or Barbarians out there?

- Eddie

Nodal
09-30-2011, 10:35 PM
I'm a Neutral Male Human Archeologist of Camaxtli. Also,

Except you can't drink a potion and throw it. It's one or the other, I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, this rules mongering is fun and all, but does anybody have any actually useful ideas to contribute?

I've got one: it seemed to me that one of the Mafia's biggest advantages last game was that they had way more information than the town. Once one person identified an item, all of them knew it. So I propose that we level the playing field a bit. I think that if you use an item which has a public effect that you should tell us what is was (i.e., it's auction list description). That way, we know what to avoid/go for in the future, as well as narrowing the possibilities for what other items could be.

Obviously, don't do this for private effects, like Identify, Wishing, Life-Saving, etc. But I think that once it's clear that an item's been used (e.g. Sickness), there's no problem in revealing it. Sure, it gives the Outsiders that info as well, but like I said, there's a good chance they've already got it.

Thoughts?

I remember thinking as a demon in M10 that the town should have done this, or even gone further and just flat out told each other what everything was. We the demon's pretty much knew what stuff was and it was a big help.

breakman
09-30-2011, 10:41 PM
Actually, here's what I think we can learn from flavour roles: It looks kind of like people with the same alignment/race/job have the same god (Eddie and Krakenbrau both claim Lugh, anyway).

I'm a Neutral Male Human Archeologist of Camaxtli.

Camaxtli is mine too, so I guess race isn't a factor.

Krakenbrau
09-30-2011, 10:49 PM
I've got one: it seemed to me that one of the Mafia's biggest advantages last game was that they had way more information than the town. Once one person identified an item, all of them knew it. So I propose that we level the playing field a bit. I think that if you use an item which has a public effect that you should tell us what is was (i.e., it's auction list description). That way, we know what to avoid/go for in the future, as well as narrowing the possibilities for what other items could be.

Obviously, don't do this for private effects, like Identify, Wishing, Life-Saving, etc. But I think that once it's clear that an item's been used (e.g. Sickness), there's no problem in revealing it. Sure, it gives the Outsiders that info as well, but like I said, there's a good chance they've already got it.

Thoughts?

This makes sense to me. The Mafia will always have the advantage of superior teamwork, because they already know who's who. So anything we can do to work better together, without giving the Mafia any new info, seems sound to me.

kaisel
09-30-2011, 10:52 PM
Ach, lads, looks like the first thing to do is declare who I am. I be a Lawful Male Dwarf Archeologist, all hail our brave lord Quetzalcoatl.

As fer strategy, this game doesn't seem to have the Wand strategy of last game. If we want to focus on keeping our enemies from getting additional kills, we should focus on scrolls. Though, I want to look at items again to see if I can see what the "optimum" strategy fer the Outsiders.

WormRider
09-30-2011, 11:52 PM
The advantage of the outsiders, beside the sharing of information, is their ability to coordinate bids and increase the chance that they as a whole win more items. Obviously, the town can't do the same thing publicly because the outsiders will know about our plan and use it to their advantage. Something else we could do, however, is to coordinate bids through private Scroll of Mail channels (*). I realize there is no way to be sure of someone's identity in this game except for a Scroll of Enlightenment, so it's somewhat of a gamble, but such is the nature of Mafia.


Obviously, don't do this for private effects, like Identify, Wishing, Life-Saving, etc. But I think that once it's clear that an item's been used (e.g. Sickness), there's no problem in revealing it. Sure, it gives the Outsiders that info as well, but like I said, there's a good chance they've already got it.

Thoughts?

I must be missing something here, because it's not obvious to me why we shouldn't do this for private effects. Even if that gives the outsiders more information, we still outnumber them and have more zorkmids than they do. The advantage of eighteen townies' resources spent wisely far outweighs the disadvantage from giving six outsiders information that they probably can't freely act on much anyways, since everyone else also knows about it.


(*) I really want a long scroll of mail chain to happen.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 12:13 AM
I've got one: it seemed to me that one of the Mafia's biggest advantages last game was that they had way more information than the town. Once one person identified an item, all of them knew it. So I propose that we level the playing field a bit. I think that if you use an item which has a public effect that you should tell us what is was (i.e., it's auction list description). That way, we know what to avoid/go for in the future, as well as narrowing the possibilities for what other items could be.

Obviously, don't do this for private effects, like Identify, Wishing, Life-Saving, etc. But I think that once it's clear that an item's been used (e.g. Sickness), there's no problem in revealing it. Sure, it gives the Outsiders that info as well, but like I said, there's a good chance they've already got it.

Thoughts?

I'm not keen on this, but I guess it's up to individual judgement. I'm all for revealing information which should be obvious to anyone who thinks about it, but if you knew, for example, that READ ME was stinking cloud, you wouldn't want the outsiders to know about it, since they can outbid us if it comes up again. But if they'd bought LEP GEX VEN ZEA and HACKEM MUCHE, they'd already know it was either READ ME or something the wizard started with, which would put them at an advantage. So that's a tough one.

I think it would be good if the tourist didn't waste their money buying stuff early on, since their power is to be able to match the outsiders' big bids if something known to be really good comes up at auction. But use your judgement.

I don't see private scroll of mail channels to coordinate bids as that great of an idea. For one thing, you bid during the day, and the private chats take place at night, before you know what's being put up for auction. For another, if you do pick the wrong person to coordinate with, then the whole mafia will know what you're planning, not just that person. I guess we could try to coordinate our daytime bids right here in public, if you want. I'm bidding seven zorkmids for that jewelled wand, so if anyone else wants it, you better bid more than that! But please don't.

Just to be clear, I think coordinating our bids is not a good idea. It'd reduce how much money we waste, but it'd also allow the outsiders to save money and buy whatever they want. And reading WormRider's post again I see that she already realises that.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 12:20 AM
Man I use too many commas. Anyway I just realised something.

I think it'd be a good idea to reveal anyway. What's the harm?

The harm is that the wizard and the tourist will have to lie, and if they screw it up they could be outed. The outsiders might have to lie, but since we don't know what's in their role PMs for all we know they might not.

Heron
10-01-2011, 01:15 AM
Boring.

So... any more Knights or Barbarians out there?

- Eddie

Usually there are a lot more random accusations on Day One.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 01:20 AM
Actually I guess they probably worship moloch, so they'll have to pick a god at least.

Preview edit: Oh good, I'm not triple posting. I'm not sure that there are usually that many more random accusations on day one, but bear in mind that we're only five or six hours in, and we started on a Friday night. Hopefully some of our players have had something better to do for the past few hours.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 01:39 AM
Boring.

So... any more Knights or Barbarians out there?

- Eddie

Why are you looking for Knights and Barbarians? Knights I get. Kinship 'n all. But why Barbarians?

chady
10-01-2011, 02:28 AM
Yimmers, I'm hoping you were joking when you tried to implicate Kraken earlier. As it is, it reads like pretty clumsy first-time bad guy stuff.

I'm a neutral female human healer, as emasculating as that sounds. Go with Hermes and all that.

Posted from my phone at a work-related convention. Might be a little out of contact until Sunday.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 03:35 AM
Oh no! Ya got me! If only I'd been a bad guy before, I could have avoided this mistake!

No, I don't think someone claiming the same god as someone else is the basis of a case against them. I just didn't want to ignore the possibility.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 04:31 AM
I accuse Guild.

I am making this post before reading anything in the thread.

Now I'm going to go back and read the thread.

Also, I'm lawful again. lolololol.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 04:40 AM
Okay, just read the thread, you people are boring so far.

Lawful Female Human Samurai, all hail Amaterasu Omikami, etc. etc.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 06:14 AM
Good thing you're here to liven things up, Brick.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 07:45 AM
Good thing you're here to liven things up, Brick.

http://dietsinreview.s3.amazonaws.com/diet_column/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/friendlys-grilled-cheese-burger-melt.jpg

Karzac
10-01-2011, 08:51 AM
I must be missing something here, because it's not obvious to me why we shouldn't do this for private effects. Even if that gives the outsiders more information, we still outnumber them and have more zorkmids than they do. The advantage of eighteen townies' resources spent wisely far outweighs the disadvantage from giving six outsiders information that they probably can't freely act on much anyways, since everyone else also knows about it.

Well, I was thinking that maybe if you identified an item, but haven't used it yet (say, a Ring of Free Action) you might not want the Outsiders to know that you have it. But this isn't a problem for an item you've already used.

RE: Scrolls of Mail: Considering what happened last game, I think anybody using a Scroll of Mail or being contacted by one should be very, very careful.

Anyway, now that Brick's here, anybody else up for killing him? Remember, he's traditionally a dangerous player as Mafia, but not so useful as town. I think it makes it an easy choice.

Luana
10-01-2011, 09:45 AM
Ach, lads, looks like the first thing to do is declare who I am. I be a Lawful Male Dwarf Archeologist, all hail our brave lord Quetzalcoatl.


I am the exact same thing, right down to the spelling error. At first I was going to be like "dudes how can this be, this is a faker" but the misspelling of archaeologist sold me on your innocence. Go bravely with Quetzalcoatl, fellow scholar!

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 10:05 AM
I am as always a fan of the lynch Bricck day one because he's better at mafia than he is at town, so long as there's nobody who I think is actually suspicious.

Luana, I'm pretty sure archeologist is a common alternate spelling. I agree that it's wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same spelling that nethack uses.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 10:08 AM
I am as always a fan of the lynch Brick day one because he's better at mafia than he is at town plan, so long as there's nobody who I think is actually suspicious.

Where's that preview picture?

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 11:07 AM
I am as always a fan of the lynch Bricck

who the fuck is bricck

Eddie
10-01-2011, 12:09 PM
Dwolfe!
Egarwaen!
Guild!
Heron!
Martinet!
Poetfox!

What are you?

- Eddie

Solitayre
10-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Why do we have so many archaeologists in this game? There is a statistically implausible number of archaeologists in this game.

So, "outsider" means something in D&D terms, right? It refers to creatures from other planes, if I recall. Maybe the demons joined forces with angels for an encore presentation of M14?

I have opinions on the "let's autolynch Brick" scenario, but I'm not going to weigh in on it yet. Let's hear from our non-posters first.

dwolfe
10-01-2011, 01:14 PM
Dwolfe!
Egarwaen!
Guild!
Heron!
Martinet!
Poetfox!

What are you?

- Eddie

I was out on a study date with the most beautiful girl this afternoon.

And I already posted twice, now three times, if you'd actually scan the massive three pages of the thread...

Karzac
10-01-2011, 01:15 PM
I think he's asking for your Race/Role/Gender/Alignment/God.

WormRider
10-01-2011, 02:04 PM
I don't know, if we are choosing our day 1 lynch just by convenience, Guild is higher on my list than Brick. That said, Guild has been strangely quiet today (not that I'm complaining). But I think choosing our lynch because of that is unproductive anyways.

The same spelling error (Archeologist) is also in Destil's and my post --- oh hey, even spelling check thinks it is correct. So maybe kaisel or Luana picked it up from there and lied, but I still think it's unlikely. If both kaisel and Luana are not lying then it seems people could have the same alignment/gender/race/role. A valid roleclaim therefore doesn't say anything about a person's innocence or the lack of thereof.

On a metagaming level, I also recalled dtsund saying somewhere in the main mafia thread that people think too much about the flavor, so he made mafiahack as plain as flavorly possible, so I don't think we'll be getting much information if any information out of people's roles.

namelessentity
10-01-2011, 02:13 PM
Well hello everybody,

I am a Neutral Female Gnome Ranger of Venus

Weighing in on revealing items, I was mafia last time and after like two or three days we pretty much knew what every important item is through process of elimination. Keeping private item use a secret may not be helpful as they would already figured out what the item was and it prevents our tourist from challenging them in the bid. However, I wouldn't suggest revealing immediately, perhaps wait for day four, and only if it is important enough that you think the tourist has to go for it (like wishing or maybe enlightenment). I am all for revealing the identity of publicly revealed items because the mafia will quickly figure those out anyway.

WormRider
10-01-2011, 02:25 PM
The same spelling error (Archeologist) is also in Destil's and my post --- oh hey, even spelling check thinks it is correct. So maybe kaisel or Luana picked it up from there and lied, but I still think it's unlikely.

I want to elaborate on this a bit. My post had the same spelling error because I copied and pasted it directly from my PM. If I had retyped the whole thing myself, I would have spelled it "Archaeologist". I assume Destil and everyone else did the same thing, which means they had a race/alignment in their PMs to start with, which means they were not lying.

I didn't mention this in the original post because I was waiting for dtsund to confirm that saying I copied my race/alignment from my PM is not a violation of the rules.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 02:29 PM
I accuse Guild. Not just because I think he's the best target, but also because he hasn't spoken up yet. He's online right now, and he was last night as well. Why so quiet, Guild?

Egarwaen
10-01-2011, 02:37 PM
Dwolfe!
Egarwaen!
Guild!
Heron!
Martinet!
Poetfox!

What are you?

- Eddie

Well, first off, I'm a I accuse Guild unless he gives me a damn good reason not to.

For my subclass, I'm a Lawful Female Human Samurai. Like Brickroad, I worship Amaterasu Omikami.

I'm totally pro-sharing of item data. Not doing so means the Mafia has a huge information advantage, which means they probably win.

Also worth noting that we've got two duplicate role claims thus far. Brick and myself and namelessentity and Yimmers.

Umby
10-01-2011, 02:40 PM
There's a chance that Guild is just "online" all the time and leaves the page up or is logged in all the time, but I think that we need more information out of Guild. Can't be a throwaway vote to vote for Guild at this point.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 02:43 PM
Weighing in on revealing items, I was mafia last time and after like two or three days we pretty much knew what every important item is through process of elimination.

This isn't PRECISELY true. Remember that we had inside information thanks to Wizphone, and spent a lot of money on dud wands before we landed Death. We also lucked out and planted the Tourist on the first night, thereby totally eradicating the town's ability to out-buy us on any particular item.

I'm not saying info-sharing is a bad idea, just that this particular justification isn't the reason to do it. If we give the mob nothing, and they want to spend all their zorkmids trying to monopolize wands and scrolls, I say we leave them to it.

Egarwaen
10-01-2011, 02:46 PM
Incidentally, I'm out of internet connection from about 5 PM PST onwards on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. So I won't be posting during these hours, but I may be reading on my crappy dumbphone.

Destil
10-01-2011, 02:52 PM
I actually think the strategy we had last time, for town, wasn't bad. We should have had item reveals a day earlier, that would have given us time to pick apart how the wand of nothing went down, but I think that was pretty close to the best play given how hard the ruleset was for the citizens.

Overall if the outsiders find out about an item early game that they really want they can outbid us on it. Late game we'll have more over-all firepower.

The following I'd, personally, suggest we not reveal during the first few days:
Potion of Enlightenment
Scroll of Cloudkill
Ring of Life Saving
Wand of Wishing

Eddie
10-01-2011, 02:52 PM
I'm going to be away most of the night, so...

I accuse Guild.

Dude was Chatty McDoublePosterson in M14 and now he's clearly avoiding the thread. I think the role reveal scared him because maybe he wasn't prepared to lie on day 1 without talking to his teammates first.

Well, it's just a theory.

- Eddie

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 03:05 PM
Dude was Chatty McDoublePosterson in M14 and now he's clearly avoiding the thread. I think the role reveal scared him because maybe he wasn't prepared to lie on day 1 without talking to his teammates first.
- Eddie

That or he thinks he's gonna "psych us out" by saying nothing at all, completely reversing his behaviour.

Karzac
10-01-2011, 03:06 PM
I'm willing to give Guilg until the end of today to explain his absence. Honestly, I'm glad he hasn't come in to clog up the thread, althoguh I agree that his sudden silence is disconcerting.

Meanwhile, we've got two other no-shows. Botticus, Martinet, where are you?

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 03:09 PM
Meanwhile, we've got three other no-shows. Botticus, Martinet, poetfox, where are you?

Karzac
10-01-2011, 03:14 PM
Thanks, I thought there was another.

Solitayre
10-01-2011, 03:17 PM
Are...are you guys actually saying that you want Guild to post? Once he does, all anyone is going to want is for him to stop posting. Let's cherish this wonderful moment while it lasts.

Karzac
10-01-2011, 03:19 PM
I think they're sayinf they want to pre-emptively stop him from ever posting.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 03:22 PM
No, I want him to speak up. I still want him gone today, but I wanna see what he's got to say first.

Also, grats on 4k posts Karzac.

Karzac
10-01-2011, 03:24 PM
Thank you! I meant to say something when I did it, but forgot.

Destil
10-01-2011, 03:29 PM
Let's see here. Last time he fucked over his team by revealing information that the citizens and the other team weren't going to get from the more subtle members (that they had daychat) and revealed himself in the process.

If he's an outsider, he may do so again.

If he's a citizen, he's dead anyway at this rate.

So, yeah, I don't see what harm it could do.

dwolfe
10-01-2011, 03:46 PM
I think he's asking for your Race/Role/Gender/Alignment/God.

A valid roleclaim therefore doesn't say anything about a person's innocence or the lack of thereof.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 03:52 PM
Maybe so, but refusal to cooperate looks suspicious as hell, dwolfe.

Heron
10-01-2011, 05:07 PM
dwolfe seems to play the mysterious angle quite often. He was pretty quiet and irrelevant in the beginning of M14. After his reveal though the town started to get their act together if I remember right.

At least he's not roleplaying up some Commissioner Gordon or something.

Weighing in on revealing items, I was mafia last time and after like two or three days we pretty much knew what every important item is through process of elimination. Keeping private item use a secret may not be helpful as they would already figured out what the item was and it prevents our tourist from challenging them in the bid. However, I wouldn't suggest revealing immediately, perhaps wait for day four, and only if it is important enough that you think the tourist has to go for it (like wishing or maybe enlightenment). I am all for revealing the identity of publicly revealed items because the mafia will quickly figure those out anyway.

Looking back I am little worried about doing Scroll of Mail daisy chain that Wormrider suggested. That could allow sharing of item reveals before Nameless' "Day Four" idea, and possibly get the tourist to compete against the mafia, but then what if a mafia was added into the chain?

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 05:17 PM
Looking back I am little worried about doing Scroll of Mail daisy chain that Wormrider suggested. That could allow sharing of item reveals before Nameless' "Day Four" idea, and possibly get the tourist to compete against the mafia, but then what if a mafia was added into the chain?

I've got the same issue. The longer the mail chain, the more likely one of the links will be mafia. For us to have a long enough chain to really do us any good, in the sense of gaining some control over the auction, there would almost certainly be mafia participation. I'm not willing to risk it.

poetfox
10-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Dwolfe!
Egarwaen!
Guild!
Heron!
Martinet!
Poetfox!

What are you?

- Eddie

I'm a member of the town.

Also, I'm right here, reading the thread.

I'm a Lawful Thread-Reading Poet Laureate, worshiper of Inari.

I accuse Krakenbrau for attempting to start lynches based on pure stupidity (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1163757&postcount=96) instead of at least pretending to use information.

Fine. I'm actually a Chaotic Female Orc Rogue who is worshiping Kos, but this is an amazingly stupid thing, all this sharing, and I am going to be super suspicious of anyone who thinks this is useful information or treats it that way.

WormRider
10-01-2011, 05:35 PM
Sure. And there's also information propagation delay. I was just thinking out loud to see whether there's a strategy we can take to address the outsider's advantage over us; but Yimothy bought up a good point: bidding happens during the day, and the outsiders (I assume) can only communicate at night, so their ability to coordinate bidding is not as good as I previously thought.

Maybe so, but refusal to cooperate looks suspicious as hell, dwolfe.

This. I still think that valid roleclaims don't say anything about innocence or guilt, but dwolfe, you didn't even give a valid roleclaim (or an invalid roleclaim, for that matter), and refusal to cooperate does look suspicious.

On the same note, Heron, what are you?

namelessentity
10-01-2011, 05:50 PM
Fine. I'm actually a Chaotic Female Orc Rogue who is worshiping Kos, but this is an amazingly stupid thing, all this sharing, and I am going to be super suspicious of anyone who thinks this is useful information or treats it that way.

The only thing that I think is interesting about the reveals are the amount of duplicates. We have I think one samurai but four archeologists. Makes me think that someone just copy pasted someone else's reveal in order to make them less suspicious.

Then again, sometimes the RNG is cruel. I'm really not sure what to make of the information.

Egarwaen
10-01-2011, 05:50 PM
This. I still think that valid roleclaims don't say anything about innocence or guilt, but dwolfe, you didn't even give a valid roleclaim (or an invalid roleclaim, for that matter), and refusal to cooperate does look suspicious.

Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, we're really finding out very little here. Is there actually a point to all this?

dwolfe
10-01-2011, 05:51 PM
This. I still think that valid roleclaims don't say anything about innocence or guilt, but dwolfe, you didn't even give a valid roleclaim (or an invalid roleclaim, for that matter), and refusal to cooperate does look suspicious.

On the same note, Heron, what are you?

We've already established that the role/alignment probably doesn't mean anything on whether you're mafia or town in this game, right?

I will cooperate with any and all plans that might actually help us win. This gambit is utter garbage.

Something like the mail chain thing...I didn't play M10. I'm not sure I follow what everyone means by it. It sounds oddly weak to a single choice of a mafia member. Am I missing something?

Is there any way in this game to form a trust bloc? And keep it alive faster than mafia can kill it? Were the four items listed the only ones we shouldn't share with the group at large? How many mafia would there probably be to have a balanced game (no more than six, no less than three, but can we guess better than that???)

That's the type of theorycrafting I'm thinking about instead of participating in this bull****.

poetfox
10-01-2011, 05:59 PM
We've already established that the role/alignment probably doesn't mean anything on whether you're mafia or town in this game, right?

I will cooperate with any and all plans that might actually help us win. This gambit is utter garbage.

Something like the mail chain thing...I didn't play M10. I'm not sure I follow what everyone means by it. It sounds oddly weak to a single choice of a mafia member. Am I missing something?

Is there any way in this game to form a trust bloc? And keep it alive faster than mafia can kill it? Were the four items listed the only ones we shouldn't share with the group at large? How many mafia would there probably be to have a balanced game (no more than six, no less than three, but can we guess better than that???)

That's the type of theorycrafting I'm thinking about instead of participating in this bull****.

*respectknuckles.gif*

breakman
10-01-2011, 05:59 PM
We've already established that the role/alignment probably doesn't mean anything on whether you're mafia or town in this game, right?

Probably not, but can you think of any advantage, as a citizen, to withhold that information when others are offering it? I couldn't.

WormRider
10-01-2011, 06:04 PM
To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if dtsund just opened nethack, clicked "randomize" and then assign whatever role/alignment/race/gender he got to the next player in the list.

My thought is this: there is no information whatsoever in revealing your alignment/race. We already have a few duplicates, if someone is mafia they can even just copy someone else entirely and no one will even seriously suspect them. There is no harm done either. If you are a townperson, you want to come out as transparent, cooperative and clear as possible for the benefit of the town and so the town don't waste a lynch on you. Revealing is trivial, arguing why you don't want to reveal is a lot more work; and since there is no effect whatsoever in revealing I'm having trouble understanding why anyone would have a stronger opinion than "meh" on it.

Guild
10-01-2011, 06:42 PM
Did this fucking town all wake up retarded? You're fucking mass role-claiming and people are LOUDLY TELLING YOU that HEY IT'S OK ... i'm pretty sure you're ALL mafia at this point

i'll post when i have something to say - if you need a vote from me, i don't like anyone who says 'i want to hear what the person i'm lynching no matter what thinks' - fuck you dude! Krakenbrau

Karzac
10-01-2011, 07:08 PM
When did people stop posting complete sentences as votes and just start bolding names? That's not very considerate to the GM.

The only thing that I think is interesting about the reveals are the amount of duplicates. We have I think one samurai but four archeologists. Makes me think that someone just copy pasted someone else's reveal in order to make them less suspicious.

When the entire Internet is at the Outsiders' fingertips, why would they be so dumb as to do this?

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 07:09 PM
How many mafia would there probably be to have a balanced game (no more than six, no less than three, but can we guess better than that???)

That's the type of theorycrafting I'm thinking about instead of participating in this bull****.

My guess is that the RNG think six, since that's how many there are. Are you sure you've been thinking about this?

Guild, we're not actually role claiming. Neutral Female Gnome Ranger isn't a role in this game. The only roles are Tourist, Wizard, and Outsider. Nobody has come forward as any of those.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 07:13 PM
Guild, we're not actually role claiming. Neutral Female Gnome Ranger isn't a role in this game. The only roles are Tourist, Wizard, and Outsider. Nobody has come forward as any of those.

In Guild's idiot head, a coherent understanding of the rules is nowhere near as important as the boner-inducing desire to hear the sound of his own lips flapping.

Guild
10-01-2011, 07:16 PM
In Guild's idiot head, a coherent understanding of the rules is nowhere near as important as the boner-inducing desire to hear the sound of his own lips flapping.

The fear of a power that utilizes the ALIGNMENT or RACE of my character combined with the fact that I'm not a sheep are why I'm not playing your stupid game.

As to writing in your own motives for another player's posts, that seems to be your domain so I'll leave you to it.

Karzac
10-01-2011, 07:16 PM
My guess is that the RNG think six, since that's how many there are. Are you sure you've been thinking about this?

Yims, could you clarify this sentence, because I have no idea what you're saying.

Guild
10-01-2011, 07:17 PM
Guild, we're not actually role claiming. Neutral Female Gnome Ranger isn't a role in this game. The only roles are Tourist, Wizard, and Outsider. Nobody has come forward as any of those.

Unfortunately, my reading comprehension is high enough to fully grasp the depth of this stupidness. Thanks though.

Karzac
10-01-2011, 07:25 PM
Unfortunately, my reading comprehension is high enough to fully grasp the depth of this stupidness. Thanks though.

WTF?

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 07:29 PM
The fear of a power that utilizes the ALIGNMENT or RACE of my character combined with the fact that I'm not a sheep are why I'm not playing your stupid game.

No such power exists, though.

I know it's not your fault you didn't read the rules, Guild. Your caretakers must not have left enough slack in the leash when they left you tied out in the backyard this morning.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 07:29 PM
Nice to see we'll be keeping it civil this game. Guild, the rules are out in the open. If it says in there somewhere that there are powers which depend on race, I'd love to hear about it. I guess my reading comprehension isn't good enough to spot it.

Karzac, dwolfe was speculating about how many outsiders would make the game balanced, I assume in order to guess how many there are. I was saying there's no need to speculate, because there are six of them:

Some nineteen of them had set forth, yet here are twenty-five!

I think it's pretty obvious if you look for it, which he claimed he was doing. I'm wondering if he already knew how many there were, but didn't realize the town knew it too.

Solitayre
10-01-2011, 07:32 PM
DID ANYBODY READ THE FIRST POST?

Some of us are trying to find the One Ring Amulet of Yendor, here!

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M15Orcs.PNG

If we could kindly all read the rules and get past this whole role-claiming nonsense, I could use a hand here!

Karzac
10-01-2011, 07:39 PM
I think it's pretty obvious if you look for it, which he claimed he was doing. I'm wondering if he already knew how many there were, but didn't realize the town knew it too.

Oh, I didn't notice that. Thanks!

Guild, I really don't think that's a valid concern. For one, we've already played this ruleset and there was never anything in M10 that relied on Alignment/Gender/Race/Role/God. The one thing added this time that might have used them -the Potion of Enlightenment- was confirmed by dtsund to only reveal guilt or innocence.

This isn't a game like M14: everything about the rules is out in the open.

Guild
10-01-2011, 07:42 PM
You guys are pretending there isn't a secret boss. It's the only thing I can think of other than a power that affects alignment or race. And if none of those exist, the role-claim is insipid. Either it's useless to outsiders or it's useful, and in that case not revealing it is the ONLY logical move because we don't know.

Guild
10-01-2011, 07:43 PM
Oh, I didn't notice that. Thanks!

Guild, I really don't think that's a valid concern. For one, we've already played this ruleset and there was never anything in M10 that relied on Alignment/Gender/Race/Role/God. The one thing added this time that might have used them -the Potion of Enlightenment- was confirmed by dtsund to only reveal guilt or innocence.

This isn't a game like M14: everything about the rules is out in the open.

Ok, then I'm a Chaotic Female Orc Barbarian

botticus
10-01-2011, 07:45 PM
Egads, I have not posted yet. I am a Neutral Female Human Valkyrie. Which is awkward. But I'm learning to accept it. And Odin is my boy.

RE: Item reveals, I think there's merit in the idea, but probably not on Day 2. The longer the game goes on, the more the mafia will know anyway, either by winning auctions or through the previously mentioned process of elimination, so the consequences of sharing the information are reduced.

At the end of the day, we need to make our 965 zorkmids work harder than their 390.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 07:45 PM
Great! Who's your god?

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 07:46 PM
I accuse Krakenbrau for attempting to start lynches based on pure stupidity (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1163757&postcount=96) instead of at least pretending to use information.


I'm pretty sure that whether or not someone agrees to reveal their flavour role counts as information. Dwolfe is vehemently refusing to play along. You did. Your accusation is totally bogus here.

I know we can't learn anything from the flavour roles themselves. And the willingness to cooperate with the mass reveal, while it doesn't tell us much by itself, has encouraged discussion, and the only way we're gonna be able to make non-random accusations is by talking. It seemed to me like this was the idea.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 07:47 PM
Great! Who's your god?

This was intended for Guild, not botticus.

Guild
10-01-2011, 07:47 PM
I don't worship no dang god for some reason (?)

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 07:50 PM
I don't worship no dang god for some reason (?)

This really the story you want to go with, spanky?

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 07:51 PM
How odd. Maybe you're going for atheist conduct. Except the flavour isn't supposed to mean anything, so that'd be a strange detail to include.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 07:56 PM
How odd. Maybe you're going for atheist conduct. Except the flavour isn't supposed to mean anything, so that'd be a strange detail to include.

Even atheist NetHack players have a god. Atheist conduct simply means the player choses not to interact with that god, or any religious aspect. This is not a detail dtsund would get wrong.

Either Guild is too stupid to know where to find his god in his role PM, or he didn't get a role PM and failed to notice the sample provided in the OP (or simply look it up on the NetHack wiki).

Note that last game he got (deeper) into trouble when he tried to fake his identity without even taking ten seconds to do the applicable research. I still have a flat spot on my skull where my forehead hit the desk.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 07:59 PM
Hm. Maybe the reveals can tell us something after all.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 08:18 PM
So by my count, Martinet, Heron, and dwolfe have yet to tell us what they are. dwolfe at least has said that that's 'cause he doesn't want to. Martinet I don't think has posted yet. Heron, are you planning to fill us in?

Also, spineshark, what are you a priest of? If you've told us, I missed it.

Also, I vote for Guild, because I don't believe he has no god.

Karzac
10-01-2011, 08:19 PM
You guys are pretending there isn't a secret boss. It's the only thing I can think of other than a power that affects alignment or race. And if none of those exist, the role-claim is insipid. Either it's useless to outsiders or it's useful, and in that case not revealing it is the ONLY logical move because we don't know.

To assume that there is a Secret Boss with absolutely no justification from the rules is idiotic. Brick almost succesfully pulled that one in M14.

I agree that the reveal is useless. But it's also dumb to hold back.

Can we start talking about something useful now?

Guild
10-01-2011, 08:20 PM
I really wish I had more to give you. My first thought was either "Welp, now I'm dead because I don't see a god named here and this is mafia and they're turning arbitrary and obsessive in lieu of direction" or "Sometimes I forget to put all the nuggets in every role PM when I run these, and maybe someone forgot to copy/paste my god in."

Frankly this forum has no idea how to play this game if meta-shit like this is how you advance the days. (see that? that's a REAL burn)

Karzac
10-01-2011, 08:20 PM
Whoops, didn't notice there was another page. Don't mind me.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 08:22 PM
"Sometimes I forget to put all the nuggets in every role PM when I run these, and maybe someone forgot to copy/paste my god in."

If this was an honest mistake on dtsund's part, I'm sure he'll inform you.

In fact, I'm 100% sure.

So let us know if that happens.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 08:33 PM
Frankly this forum has no idea how to play this game if meta-shit like this is how you advance the days. (see that? that's a REAL burn)

Maybe after you win this game you can give us some tips.

dwolfe
10-01-2011, 08:49 PM
Karzac, dwolfe was speculating about how many outsiders would make the game balanced, I assume in order to guess how many there are. I was saying there's no need to speculate, because there are six of them:



I think it's pretty obvious if you look for it, which he claimed he was doing. I'm wondering if he already knew how many there were, but didn't realize the town knew it too.

I was giving examples of theorycrafting more useful than sharing our PM info that is supposed to be purely cosmetic. Not things I was currently doing. The 3-6 number was off the top of my head. It fits the N+dn used for items, and after Libra/Gemini mafia GM trickery (which was pretty cool!), I will never assume we're told everything in a mafia game even if the GM claims to have done so. I think my play in M14 speaks to me being open to any remotely plausible argument, while and listening to actual evidence and logic (a far cry from my M2 days, indeed!). There's zero evidence or argument that our PM information is useful, and by speaking out against it I'm also promoting discussion.

Oh wait, I must be a mafia stupid enough to draw attention to himself on day one over a stupid town idea, right?

Currently, I'm taking a look at the M10 thread, especially the post-game talk, to try to understand this ruleset better, and haven't really looked at the opening post at all. I still have almost two days before bidding and voting closes, no need to hurry.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 09:11 PM
I think the first step towards understanding the rule set is to read it, but I guess that's just me.

I don't think the PM information is useful in itself, but I am interested in the possibility that people will lie about it. Unfortunately, the only people we know for certain will have to lie are the wizard and the tourist (as I have already (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1163395&postcount=57) pointed out), so it could be that all this revealing will do more harm than good. I do think though that the outsiders are probably followers of Moloch, and so will have to lie about their god.

So: I don't think your reluctance to reveal is all that suspicious. I do think that claiming not to know something which you should have known is a little bit suspicious. Not as suspicious as Guild claiming to have no god though, which is why he has my vote and you don't.

Guild
10-01-2011, 09:21 PM
Guild claiming to have no god is, for some illogical reason, suspicious.

So long as there's nothing I can even do about my own lynch, I'm barely even mad. I'm also, unfortunately and as a direct result, way less invested in this game. Let me know if I should change that attitude.

Heron
10-01-2011, 09:26 PM
DID ANYBODY READ THE FIRST POST?

Some of us are trying to find the One Ring Amulet of Yendor, here!

http://rpgmaker.net/media/content/users/4474/locker/M15Orcs.PNG

If we could kindly all read the rules and get past this whole role-claiming nonsense, I could use a hand here!

Sir, that is not in ascii and therefore not proper!

So by my count, Martinet, Heron, and dwolfe have yet to tell us what they are. dwolfe at least has said that that's 'cause he doesn't want to. Martinet I don't think has posted yet. Heron, are you planning to fill us in?

Also, spineshark, what are you a priest of? If you've told us, I missed it.

I haven't said much because I wanted to see how folks reacted. The reveals are arbitrary and don't matter, but reactions might matter. It is interesting that we have two Lawful Female Human Samurais, and quite a few archeologists. To answer your question though my role is Lawful Male Human Priest.

Frankly this forum has no idea how to play this game...

It's like you are wearing a red coat and complaining that folks are hitting you from the trees and aren't doing it right.

So long as there's nothing I can even do about my own lynch, I'm barely even mad. I'm also, unfortunately and as a direct result, way less invested in this game. Let me know if I should change that attitude.

If you had a different attitude and not been so antagonistic you might have been able to do something about it.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 09:31 PM
To answer your question though my role is Lawful Male Human Priest.

Priest of whom?

namelessentity
10-01-2011, 09:46 PM
I don't worship no dang god for some reason (?)

I accuse Guild of not reading the opening post where dtsund showed a sample townie role PM so that if you were mafia you could easily front this. He gave you all the tools to pretend to be townie and you refuse to use any of them.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 09:48 PM
Guild, you were a lot of fun last time. I'd like it if you were more involved. The illogical reason why claiming to have no god is suspicious is that all nethack players have gods. I suspect that you have the wrong god (i.e., Moloch), and you don't know which one to claim instead. Why you haven't just claimed one of the gods that other people have come forward with is a mystery to me, but then so's your entire playstyle. Maybe you've just been unlucky, but until something better comes along you get my vote.

WormRider
10-01-2011, 09:53 PM
If this was an honest mistake on dtsund's part, I'm sure he'll inform you.

In fact, I'm 100% sure.

So let us know if that happens.

Even if this is an honest mistake, I don't think dtsund will (or should) publicly announce it. So, sucks to be you (Guild). Do tell us if you get a clarification/god from dtsund though.

By the way, Guild, does your PM explicitly say that you don't have a god, or does it just not mention anything about it?

Anyways, I vote for Guild because he seems to be the most suspicious person at this point.

Unfortunately, the only people we know for certain will have to lie are the wizard and the tourist (as I have already (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1163395&postcount=57) pointed out), so it could be that all this revealing will do more harm than good.

I didn't read the M10 thread (just the wrap-up), so maybe I'm missing something here, but why do the wizard and the tourist have to lie? I don't play nethack either, if that's relevant.

Krakenbrau
10-01-2011, 10:00 PM
I didn't read the M10 thread (just the wrap-up), so maybe I'm missing something here, but why do the wizard and the tourist have to lie? I don't play nethack either, if that's relevant.

Because their PMs would say something like "You are the wizard!" or "You are a lawful dwarven male tourist" or something like that.

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 10:01 PM
The wizard and the tourist have to lie because if they don't then the mafia will know who they are. Since they are the closest thing to town power roles, that's a bad thing.

To be more explicit: Their role PMs presumably go something like
You are a Neutral Female Human Wizard: that is to say, the Wizard

If they post that, they'll be a prime nightkill target.

While I'm talking about PMs, what do you all suppose the outsider PMs look like? In particular, what nethack role would lead to the phrase "that is to say, an outsider"? I'm leaning towards priest of Moloch. What gods do our priests worship, again?

Karzac
10-01-2011, 10:01 PM
The Wizard and Tourist would have to lie because their roles would probably be, well, Wizard and Tourist. And we don't want the Outsiders knowing that.

The fact that Guild is just rolling over is strange to me. I mean, I get that he wouldn't play exactly like last game, since he was Mafia then. But I'd expect him to play a bit tougher. And not claiming a god when it's extremely easy to do so is so stupid he might be telling the truth.

In any case, I guess I vote for Guild but I really hope having a bandwagon start this early won't kill the discussion for the rest of the day.

WormRider
10-01-2011, 10:05 PM
What did mafia PMs look like in M10?

Solitayre
10-01-2011, 10:25 PM
Wow, Guild is the gift that keeps on giving. It only took what, four posts for him to irrevocably incriminate himself? That's impressive work.

I zap my wand of accusing at Guild.

What did mafia PMs look like in M10?

In M10 the Mafia were specific demons (Asmodeus, Jubilex, etc), servants of Moloch who were boss monsters in Nethack. No idea what they are this time around. Yimothy's theory that they worship Moloch seems logical, except that since Guild clearly hasn't read any of the OP at all, he probably would have just obliviously cited Moloch as his God if it had been listed as such.

Destil
10-01-2011, 10:33 PM
For reference:
Hello Destil, welcome to MafiaHack! You are a chaotic male elven Wizard.

You have no money to start with; your starting inventory is as follows:
A Ring of Free Action (a wooden ring)
A Scroll of Mail (a scroll labeled PRATYAVAYAH)
A Ring of Warning (a gold ring)
A Scroll of Mail (a scroll labeled PRATYAVAYAH)

There will be no further flavor text in this PM, as you lot would undoubtedly try to use it to gain advantage in the game. This is why we can't have nice things.

I find it hard to believe that Guild got no god or even got a god that gives away his outsiderness, given dtsund's explicit desire not to let us metagame our role PMs...

Yimothy
10-01-2011, 10:44 PM
He doesn't want us to metagame it, but it says right in my PM that being a citizen follows on from being a Neutral Female Gnome Ranger. Or in the sample PM from the OP: "You are a Neutral Male Human Monk: that is to say, a Citizen." To me that suggests that whatever roles the outsiders got are ones which make it obvious they're not citizens.

Brickroad
10-01-2011, 10:48 PM
Sir, that is not in ascii and therefore not proper!

Sir (or madame), I would like to buy you a beer.

Even if this is an honest mistake, I don't think dtsund will (or should) publicly announce it. So, sucks to be you (Guild). Do tell us if you get a clarification/god from dtsund though.

To clarify: dtsund would not make this announcement public. He would send Guild an errata PM, which would enable Guild to come back and post the correction himself (if he desired).

Neat and tidy -- if it were true.

poetfox
10-01-2011, 10:50 PM
How about we try to help Guild understand, instead of yelling at him?

Guild, Let's look at the sample Role PM again.

You are a Neutral Male Human Monk: that is to say, a Citizen. You start with 50 zorkmids.

For the sake of us all: go bravely with Chih Sung-tzu!

In this sample PM, the god being worshiped would be Chih Sung-tzu.

Who are you worshiping?

kaisel
10-02-2011, 01:14 AM
Hrm, on the one hand, I do think that Guild might be persecuted over nothing. I mean, if I were an Outsider and experienced in multiple games, I would make damn sure that I didn't put anything stupid out as information, such as completely botching a role PM. Also it seems like he's an easy Day 1 target, almost too easy.

On the other hand, his response has been to say that we're playing the game wrong, which isn't exactly comforting. I don't think I want to vote for Guild yet, but right now there's really not a lot of info to go on, and I want to wait until everyone can speak their mind.

Martinet
10-02-2011, 02:29 AM
Last to join, last to post! -_-

Anyway, I'm a Lawful Male Human Monk playing for team Shan Lai Ching.

I'm re-reading the thread to see why Guild's catching so much flak...

Nodal
10-02-2011, 03:29 AM
I vote to kill Guild.

Last game when he was an idiot I thought no way was he that stupid, this must be some sort of mafia ploy where he benefits from being killed. This time I'm cool with it.

botticus
10-02-2011, 07:25 AM
For reference:


I find it hard to believe that Guild got no god or even got a god that gives away his outsiderness, given dtsund's explicit desire not to let us metagame our role PMs...
His intent was for us to be unable to metagame based on the syntax or general content of the PMs. But obviously if everyone were to post their role PM, some would say "outsider" instead of "citizen". And some would say 65 zorkmids instead of 50. So presumably some could say Moloch instead of other gods. And while I don't know NetHack worth a damn, the gods and classes seem at least loosely related.

That said, I would think (I know, this is dangerous) that Guild would make up another god in place of an incriminating one rather than pretending he doesn't have one, whether or not he read the sample PM.

Nodal
10-02-2011, 08:00 AM
Sir (or madame), I would like to buy you a beer.



_..----.._
.' o '.
/ o o \
|o o o|
/'-..__ __.-'\
\ ````` /
|``--........--'`|
\ /
`'----------'`

Eddie
10-02-2011, 08:31 AM
Nodal, don't you mean

%

Anyway, now that everyone (except Dwolfe) has announced or faked their role PM, I just want to say that Heron has the right idea. Posting our "roles" was not about using them to statistically persecute someone (although that was a very faint possibility) and was entirely to test people's ability and willingness to lie.

The town gets very little information on day 1, but asking for something from people who may not have one introduces a psychological test. The mafia/outsiders are presumably just as much in the dark as the rest of us townsfolk when it comes to "roles".

For example, are there duplicate race/class roles? Without knowing for sure, an outsider would either be forced to wait (to pick something no one else is) or to take the chance and pick one at random and hope there are no consequences arising from it. At this juncture (and since there were two "neutral male Human Barbarian"'s in M10) I would suggest that yeah, we shouldn't be surprised with people claiming the same race/class/even gender. But early on? That'd take JohnB sized balls.

Balls that I think Guild has shown he doesn't have.

- Eddie

Nodal
10-02-2011, 08:41 AM
Considering that that backs up what I'm thinking about Guild it seems like another nail in the coffin.

schep
10-02-2011, 09:28 AM
Apologies if this message is a repeat. I don't see the one I thought I already posted, so I probably clicked the wrong thing after typing it up or something.

Here's my take on everything:

The role/race/gender/alignment claims don't mean anything, and are fairly easy to forge. But some of us pushed along the idea of sharing them just to see if anyone would be caught lying.

It will usually be best for the town to reveal any IDed items publicly right away. There may be a few exceptions. If enough people reveal their items, we might even get some truthful reveals from the outsiders early on, since they'd want to blend in and couldn't risk being caught lying over something trivial early on. But of course, mistrust every item-ID claim as you would mistrust anything else the claimer says.

I'm glad somebody quoted poetfox's white text, which I missed at first. Without it, she looked rather bad.

The large number of archaeologists is a bit suspicious. But the guess that dtsund might have just taken random characters from actual NetHack startups sounds reasonable, in which case that sort of thing is to be expected.

And then we have Guild, claiming his role PM did not mention a deity. This is either an admission he's not from this plane or a severe case of not paying attention. That's more to go on than usually comes up in Day 1 of a Mafia-like game.

I vote we throw Guild to the newts.

If he gives us all a convincing explanation of his allegiance, I will change my day one vote to a random player (other than myself).

Karzac
10-02-2011, 10:05 AM
Nodal, don't you mean

%

Anyway, now that everyone (except Dwolfe) has announced or faked their role PM, I just want to say that Heron has the right idea. Posting our "roles" was not about using them to statistically persecute someone (although that was a very faint possibility) and was entirely to test people's ability and willingness to lie.

The town gets very little information on day 1, but asking for something from people who may not have one introduces a psychological test. The mafia/outsiders are presumably just as much in the dark as the rest of us townsfolk when it comes to "roles".

For example, are there duplicate race/class roles? Without knowing for sure, an outsider would either be forced to wait (to pick something no one else is) or to take the chance and pick one at random and hope there are no consequences arising from it. At this juncture (and since there were two "neutral male Human Barbarian"'s in M10) I would suggest that yeah, we shouldn't be surprised with people claiming the same race/class/even gender. But early on? That'd take JohnB sized balls.

Balls that I think Guild has shown he doesn't have.

- Eddie

If that's the case, why aren't we all voting for dwolfe, who flat out refused to reveal?

Nodal
10-02-2011, 10:09 AM
If that's the case, why aren't we all voting for dwolfe, who flat out refused to reveal?

In my case, it's because Guild's squirminess is far more suspicious to me.

Eddie
10-02-2011, 10:49 AM
I don't think dwolfe is necessarily suspicious for not wanting to reveal; stubborn perhaps, but I think mafia history has shown that not going along with a plan (particularly a day 1 one) is a poor indicator of guilt or innocence.

That said, I wait with baited breath for either "evidence and logic" or "theorycraft" from him that is deeper than some flippant suggestions on day one. Until then we have to lynch somebody and Guild isn't doing himself or us citizens any favors.

Plus Guild double-posted even after being told multiple times to not do that. Gotta nip that in the bud quickly.

- Eddie

WormRider
10-02-2011, 10:50 AM
In my case, it's because dwolfe just flat-out said that he is not telling, whereas Guild just ambiguously said he worships no god. There's still plenty of time left in day 1, so I want to get more information instead of just accuse someone and call it a day. It seems unlikely that I could get dwolfe to speak, and there are many things unclear in what Guild said (such as what I asked him in my previous post), so I accused him because I want him to speak more.

So, again, Guild, what did you mean by you don't have any god? Does your PM say that or does it just not mention anything about a god?

Umby
10-02-2011, 11:49 AM
As I have said every game, practically, day one is less about getting the mafia, although it is awesome if you can find one. It's more about finding that one townsperson who is the most useless, and hoping that for whatever reason or another that he is mafia. Guild has proven within these first few days that he's not going to respond to questioning and isn't being very useful. dwolfe in the past has been useful and has given no true reason to lynch him so far.

Egarwaen
10-02-2011, 12:51 PM
I vote to kill Guild.

Last game when he was an idiot I thought no way was he that stupid, this must be some sort of mafia ploy where he benefits from being killed. This time I'm cool with it.

Hm. So, looking at the sample wizard role PM Destil posted from MafiaHack 1, there is a disturbing possibility we may have to consider. Guild may be the wizard and/or tourist. On the other hand, given that other online mafia fora are apparently messes of poor play and degenerate strategy, we might still be better off killing him early...

It will usually be best for the town to reveal any IDed items publicly right away. There may be a few exceptions. If enough people reveal their items, we might even get some truthful reveals from the outsiders early on, since they'd want to blend in and couldn't risk being caught lying over something trivial early on. But of course, mistrust every item-ID claim as you would mistrust anything else the claimer says.

Makes sense to me. Though the way the auction rules work, I'm trying to decide whether citizens should go for big bids or smaller bids early on. I'm leaning towards big, but thinking caution might be wise. Thoughts?

Karzac
10-02-2011, 01:02 PM
Hm. So, looking at the sample wizard role PM Destil posted from MafiaHack 1, there is a disturbing possibility we may have to consider. Guild may be the wizard and/or tourist. On the other hand, given that other online mafia fora are apparently messes of poor play and degenerate strategy, we might still be better off killing him early...

I also considered this possibility, which is why I'm having second thoughts about my vote. But the same thing could apply to dwolfe. It's an inherent problem with this strategy: the people who lie are either our enemies or our biggest assets.

Makes sense to me. Though the way the auction rules work, I'm trying to decide whether citizens should go for big bids or smaller bids early on. I'm leaning towards big, but thinking caution might be wise. Thoughts?

I'm not sure what way we should be bidding, but I do know it's a good idea not to discuss it publicly. Then the Outsiders will be able to adjust accordingly.

dwolfe
10-02-2011, 01:37 PM
I don't think dwolfe is necessarily suspicious for not wanting to reveal; stubborn perhaps, but I think mafia history has shown that not going along with a plan (particularly a day 1 one) is a poor indicator of guilt or innocence.

That said, I wait with baited breath for either "evidence and logic" or "theorycraft" from him that is deeper than some flippant suggestions on day one. Until then we have to lynch somebody and Guild isn't doing himself or us citizens any favors.

Plus Guild double-posted even after being told multiple times to not do that. Gotta nip that in the bud quickly.

- Eddie

Well, my logic today was to not participate in a blatantly stupid idea, and see who tries to use that as an excuse to lynch me. Those people are at the top of my to-lynch list.

The rush against Guild also irks me. He has really toned down his verbal spewing (until he called us all stupid again) in this game. He acknowledged he will try to tone down double posts and has done so.

Since all the reactionary votes seem to have been cast, I'm happy to share the useless information that I am a Neutral Male Gnome Archeologist that goes bravely with Camaxtli.

That misspelling of Archaeologist is seriously annoying.

I assume that alignment/gender/race/role/god were generated by starting random characters in Nethack. You would expect less evenly distributed results when it's truly random than when someone is trying to make it random consciously.

PS: Eddie, it's spelled bated breath most properly. Unless you were eating fish bait for lunch or something :)

Karzac
10-02-2011, 01:39 PM
Well, my logic today was to not participate in a blatantly stupid idea, and see who tries to use that as an excuse to lynch me. Those people are at the top of my to-lynch list.

Care to state who constitues this list?

dwolfe
10-02-2011, 02:14 PM
Krakenbrau was the person that really jumped at my refusal to play along, but didn't quite dare to vote. So Kraken is my most suspicious target. Unfortunately, the Guild bandwagon got rolling while I was waiting for more responses.

Thusly, for lack of a better target, I accuse krakenbrau.

schep
10-02-2011, 02:20 PM
Hm. So, looking at the sample wizard role PM Destil posted from MafiaHack 1, there is a disturbing possibility we may have to consider. Guild may be the wizard and/or tourist.

Nethack wizards and tourists also have gods. Since dtsund was consciously trying to avoid role PM metagaming, I bet their PMs followed the exact same pattern: Nethack-role, Mafia-role, starting inventory, then finally "For the sake of us all: go bravely with [god]!"

Destil
10-02-2011, 02:25 PM
Yeah, for what it's worth I don't think anyone had gods in M10.

Solitayre
10-02-2011, 05:35 PM
So uh, are we just gonna sit here and say "yep, Guild needs to die" until tomorrow?

Day one is more important in this game than in most games, I feel. Tonight, the bad guys make their first move, but so does the wizard. We need to give the wizard as much to work with as possible today, so he can make an informed decision about who to contact tonight.

namelessentity
10-02-2011, 05:46 PM
So uh, are we just gonna sit here and say "yep, Guild needs to die" until tomorrow?

Day one is more important in this game than in most games, I feel. Tonight, the bad guys make their first move, but so does the wizard. We need to give the wizard as much to work with as possible today, so he can make an informed decision about who to contact tonight.

I'm waiting to see Guild's response. If he is a citizen, he should be trying to be as helpful as possible to show he isn't the weak link that should be removed. If he is an outsider, he should stay quiet so he doesn't give anything away like he did last time. His silence is confirming his guilt for me.

As for the wizard, the only advice I have is don't contact Brick. I don't know what else we can do for him, there is really nothing we can say that will convince him that one of us is more trustworthy than someone else. Really he should just try to contact a strong player that the mafia won't kill tonight, and take everything they say with a grain of salt.

The powers discussion is really a conversation for tomorrow since then we will have powers to discuss (or not discuss, depending on the circumstances)

breakman
10-02-2011, 06:13 PM
A question for anyone around right now, before I think out loud too much:

If we presume that Guild is either a Wizard, Tourist, or Outsider, without any real evidence of which one he is, is it worth lynching him today?

schep
10-02-2011, 06:25 PM
I am still curious to know what higher powers these players serve:

Guild, Cha-Fem-Orc-Bar
Heron, Law-Mal-Hum-Pri
spineshark, Cha-Fem-Elf-Pri

It seems strange that our Priest and Priestess (of all people) haven't even mentioned their gods.

(Could one or both be the Wizard or Tourist? Maybe. But if I noticed this, it's almost certain that at least one outsider could, so I might as well point it out to everyone before nightfall.)

Guild
10-02-2011, 06:41 PM
As I have said every game, practically, day one is less about getting the mafia, although it is awesome if you can find one. It's more about finding that one townsperson who is the most useless, and hoping that for whatever reason or another that he is mafia. Guild has proven within these first few days that he's not going to respond to questioning and isn't being very useful. dwolfe in the past has been useful and has given no true reason to lynch him so far.

I will respond to a reasonable amount of questioning. My role PM has no god. It's not even in the same syntax as the rest of yours. It came in two parts. Without actually quoting them, one part says my race and alignment, then the second part explains that I'm a dungeon delving chick who takes no prisoners (paraphrasing is awkward here) and likes the harmonics of the painful yells of flame badgods.

Unfortunately I might even be dead as I post this, let me check...

Ok, posting! Uh, let me go back and read before you kill me? because I was mostly skimming and reading stuff about me.

My point is that, regardless of if this is a game testing the ability of the players to lie, stacking the deck against one team by reading your secret cards aloud right off the bat strikes me as extremely unsportsmanlike, ESPECIALLY since I specifically don't HAVE a god. At all. I'd send a PM to the moderators, but I'm assuming that they're reading, and if they haven't moved to correct the mistake yet, it must be fine. Maybe I'm some kind of athiest? Maybe it's intentional and dwolfe and I have no gods? I dunno. Maybe dwolfe has no race!

Either way, enjoy your weird game if I die. I'll still be trying to wrap my head around my lynch if it happens. If not, uh... I'm all about killing someone but I don't know anything at all yet. And... here's another nail in my coffin? I don't like that dwolfe is not claiming 8V

Guild
10-02-2011, 06:44 PM
That said, I"M STILL SUPER PISSED AT THE PERSON I'M VOTING FOR FOR THE REASON I STATED AND MY VOTE'S NOT LEAVING UNTIL SWITCHING IT WOULD BOTH EASE MY MIND AND FREAKING MATTER.

Krakenbrau
10-02-2011, 06:54 PM
A question for anyone around right now, before I think out loud too much:

If we presume that Guild is either a Wizard, Tourist, or Outsider, without any real evidence of which one he is, is it worth lynching him today?

I think it is. If it's the case that he's one of Wizard, Tourist, or Outsider, and we have no way to tell which, it still makes sense to lynch him because there are 6 outsiders and only one wizard and one tourist. So, it's more likely that he's an Outsider.

However, I don't think that this is the case. Like I said before, I don't really know much about Nethack lore, but based on a tiny bit of research, it looks like Wizards have gods, and schep says that the tourist would also.


Krakenbrau was the person that really jumped at my refusal to play along, but didn't quite dare to vote. So Kraken is my most suspicious target. Unfortunately, the Guild bandwagon got rolling while I was waiting for more responses.

Thusly, for lack of a better target, I accuse krakenbrau.

dwofle, I didn't accuse you because my vote was already cast for Guild, and I find him far more suspicious than you.



My point is that, regardless of if this is a game testing the ability of the players to lie, stacking the deck against one team by reading your secret cards aloud right off the bat strikes me as extremely unsportsmanlike, ESPECIALLY since I specifically don't HAVE a god.

The whole point of this game is to use whatever resources at our disposal to catch the mafia in a lie, and get rid of them. I don't think that's very unsportsmanlike.

That said, I"M STILL SUPER PISSED AT THE PERSON I'M VOTING FOR FOR THE REASON I STATED AND MY VOTE'S NOT LEAVING UNTIL SWITCHING IT WOULD BOTH EASE MY MIND AND FREAKING MATTER.

It worked, didn't it? My accusation (and those of others) got you to speak up, and you slipped up.

Guild
10-02-2011, 06:59 PM
I think it is. If it's the case that he's one of Wizard, Tourist, or Outsider, and we have no way to tell which, it still makes sense to lynch him because there are 6 outsiders and only one wizard and one tourist. So, it's more likely that he's an Outsider.

However, I don't think that this is the case. Like I said before, I don't really know much about Nethack lore, but based on a tiny bit of research, it looks like Wizards have gods, and schep says that the tourist would also.




dwofle, I didn't accuse you because my vote was already cast for Guild, and I find him far more suspicious than you.




The whole point of this game is to use whatever resources at our disposal to catch the mafia in a lie, and get rid of them. I don't think that's very unsportsmanlike.



It worked, didn't it? My accusation (and those of others) got you to speak up, and you slipped up.

how is.. .not having a god a slip oifiahfdkla; you are an idiot

this game is absofucking lutely not about cheating by reading your SECRET CARD out loud

SECRET

CARD

IS A SECRET

you brazenly deny my point without refutation to display your ignorance and lack of concern for it in a show of animal poofery, and it works because your peers dislike me because i'm a jerk

How's that, you opportunistic and illogically-minded social sniper? I answered everyone specifically EXCEPT you. Your answer was your name bolded until you admit that lynching a player regardless of what they say in response to it is a bonehead move and you're smarter than that.

Guild
10-02-2011, 07:03 PM
Not, of course, because I hope you improve your game or I care about you, but because being a closed-minded railroad machine a harmful attitude for a townie and a useful one for a wolf, and I don't want to lose this game, post-mortem or otherwise, to your lack of concern for the responses you read (or a simulation thereof).

dwolfe
10-02-2011, 07:09 PM
Ok...Guild totally didn't read the posts above his where I revealed that I have a race and a religion both, and is spazzing out to boot. So invoking me as a defense for himself kinda pisses me off, and here I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Kraken, no hard feelings, I was fishin' for Mafia and the catching wasn't very good.

Changing to vote for Guild.

Krakenbrau
10-02-2011, 07:11 PM
how is.. .not having a god a slip oifiahfdkla; you are an idiot


Everyone else has (or claims to have) a god. You didn't even bother to claim one. I'd call that a slip up.

But maybe you're right, maybe we'll lynch you and discover that you're a citizen. In that case, we all would have screwed up, but you would have helped us along. And, like Umby said, Day 1 lynch isn't really about finding mafia. It's great if we do, but more likely that we won't. So we'll be partly motivated by convenience, and you're painting a pretty damn convenient target on yourself.


this game is absofucking lutely not about cheating by reading your SECRET CARD out loud

SECRET

CARD

IS A SECRET


As far as I know, it would be cheating for us to copy paste our role pm in it's entirety. Since dtsund has been fairly clear that the flavour roles we've been revealing have no mechanical significance whatsoever (and since none of us have been modkilled yet) I think it's a perfectly legal play.


you brazenly deny my point without refutation to display your ignorance and lack of concern for it in a show of animal poofery, and it works because your peers dislike me because i'm a jerk


I'm not sure what your point is, actually.


Ok...Guild totally didn't read the posts above his where I revealed that I have a race and a religion both, and is spazzing out to boot. So invoking me as a defense for himself kinda pisses me off, and here I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Kraken, no hard feelings, I was fishin' for Mafia and the catching wasn't very good.

Changing to vote for Guild.

No worries brah.

breakman
10-02-2011, 07:16 PM
Well, now that Guild has dug himself a sufficiently deeper hole*, would Heron and spineshark care to tell us their gods, please?

*"No, no, dig UP, stupid!"

Guild
10-02-2011, 07:17 PM
Ok...Guild totally didn't read the posts above his where I revealed that I have a race and a religion both, and is spazzing out to boot. So invoking me as a defense for himself kinda pisses me off, and here I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Kraken, no hard feelings, I was fishin' for Mafia and the catching wasn't very good.

Changing to vote for Guild.

Sorry dwolfe, it was just me being honest about my feelings and not reading your post, and sorry to everybody, I wasn't done reading the thread and I got into a temper tantrum. I'll read and watch now.

Guild
10-02-2011, 07:26 PM
Yeah, I don't like it any more than any of you. I'm frankly feeling like an asshole right now. I wish I had a god! Uh... I choose to worship MacReady, Slayer of Things, Pilot of Helicopters.

Done reading now.

dwolfe
10-02-2011, 07:27 PM
How screwed are we if Guild turns out to be the Wizard? Because I could totally see the mafia killing him tonight if somehow the town lets him off the hook. *sigh*

Eddie
10-02-2011, 07:28 PM
I will respond to a reasonable amount of questioning. My role PM has no god. It's not even in the same syntax as the rest of yours. It came in two parts. Without actually quoting them, one part says my race and alignment, then the second part explains that I'm a dungeon delving chick who takes no prisoners (paraphrasing is awkward here) and likes the harmonics of the painful yells of flame badgods.

See, I didn't believe you when you said you didn't receive a role PM with no god listed.

Now I really don't believe you when you say your PM came in "two parts."

Schep mentioned that a few players haven't said who they're worshiping. I'll doublecheck after this post, but here is my current list of people who haven't prayed recently:

Breakman
Guild
Heron
Spineshark

There were also some players who mentioned their god in a second post.

EXTREME THEORY TIME: it's possible that all players were given a class/race/gender but that that "mafia" may not have (or worship an unaligned god like Moloch, which would be bad times to reveal).

This is a pretty extreme theory and I myself don't put much stock in it (my best guess is that the mafia are like MafiaHack 1 and don't have roles/races/etc.) but it might be a bucket to kick.

- Eddie

spineshark
10-02-2011, 07:29 PM
Apparently I worship Kos. Kinda forgot about it, sorry. When I first read my pm I actually kind of assumed it wasn't important and everyone got the same one to mitigate...something like this.

I can kind of see where Guild is coming from with this, as I've had similar thoughts in previous games. But I really doubt this "solves" the game, and if I were dtsund, I'd supply every player with a convincing pre-made lie.

That...doesn't seem to be the case, though. I really don't have any guesses at the facts of the Guild situation beyond that he may well be a...bad man.

namelessentity
10-02-2011, 07:30 PM
I will respond to a reasonable amount of questioning. My role PM has no god. It's not even in the same syntax as the rest of yours. It came in two parts. Without actually quoting them, one part says my race and alignment, then the second part explains that I'm a dungeon delving chick who takes no prisoners (paraphrasing is awkward here) and likes the harmonics of the painful yells of flame badgods.

Did Guild just admit to being evil? Not in the same syntax as the defined citizen post, specifically likes painful yells and won't take prisoners?

Is it too early for a victory dance? I know, information shut down and all that jazz, but day one mafia how often does that happen?

Eddie
10-02-2011, 07:31 PM
How screwed are we if Guild turns out to be the Wizard? Because I could totally see the mafia killing him tonight if somehow the town lets him off the hook. *sigh*

Well, we wouldn't be too bad; if he IS the Wizard he could transfer all his items around quasi-randomly to ensure that they likely end up in the hands of players before he was lynched.

- Eddie

chady
10-02-2011, 07:32 PM
Okay I'm back. What, we're lynching Guild?

My role PM has no god. It's not even in the same syntax as the rest of yours. It came in two parts. Without actually quoting them, one part says my race and alignment, then the second part explains that I'm a dungeon delving chick who takes no prisoners (paraphrasing is awkward here) and likes the harmonics of the painful yells of flame badgods.

Yeah, we're lynching Guild. I accuse Guild.

Now that that's out of the way, here's a message for Guild: I know the games on this board have a stronger than usual metagame component, and I'm not a huge fan of gaming the rules by comparing role PMs. But you're so obviously lying here that it's stupid. And it's the worst kind of lie, in that it is in no way believable. It can't be ignored. Everything is right there in the rules up front, a sample role PM. With a god and everything. The flavor of the game is NetHack. dtsund has run several LPs of it. The likelihood of him messing up and you telling the truth is next to nil.

The way I see it you're any one of these three things: #1 an outsider and a terrible liar; #2 a citizen who has concocted a ridiculous story to get yourself lynched because you hate the way the metagame works around here; or #3 a stupid troll that likes to try and ruin games. You shouldn't be surprised that everybody wants you dead.

Guild
10-02-2011, 07:36 PM
Okay I'm back. What, we're lynching Guild?

The way I see it you're any one of these three things: #1 an outsider and a terrible liar; #2 a citizen who has concocted a ridiculous story to get yourself lynched because you hate the way the metagame works around here; or #3 a stupid troll that likes to try and ruin games. You shouldn't be surprised that everybody wants you dead.

OR 4 I GOT NO FREAKING GOD IN MY ROLE PM YOU TARD MONKEY

chady
10-02-2011, 07:38 PM
The flavor of the game is NetHack. dtsund has run several LPs of it. The likelihood of him messing up and you telling the truth is next to nil.

I will admit that maybe dtsund intentionally set you up. Which would be pretty hilarious.

spineshark
10-02-2011, 07:40 PM
After SMFT I'd say I could see that happening.

schep
10-02-2011, 07:42 PM
I'll doublecheck after this post, but here is my current list of people who haven't prayed recently:

Breakman
Guild
Heron
Spineshark

Breakman identified himself a follower of Camaxtli here (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=1163322#post1163322).

Umby
10-02-2011, 07:59 PM
Bunches of yelling and screaming and no information is gained.

Oh, good! We've found our most useless player!

breakman
10-02-2011, 08:06 PM
There were also some players who mentioned their god in a second post.


Like me (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1163322&postcount=52), for instance. (fake edit: I see schep already took care of this while I was writing everything else. Oh well.)

Now then, to what I was getting at in the first place. Guild I think is probably an Outsider, Heron and spineshark I think are about as likely to be as anyone else (I noticed that spineshark already named his god, I'll get to that in a moment).

The reason why a Tourist or Wizard would still need to lie about their gods is that the gods we worship match those (http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Gods) that characters of our alignment and class worship in NetHack (if anyone wants to go back through the thread and see if anybody's claimed god doesn't match their claimed alignment/class, that would be nice, but I doubt there's anything to find). If the Tourist or Wizard claimed a class/alignment combo that no one else had yet, they would need to know the correct god to claim as well. The same, I imagine, goes for the Outsiders, though I'm guessing they just worship Moloch instead of the god they should have normally.

The other Outsiders (and the Tourist/Wizard) probably figured out to look up which god they should have. Guild, however, chose a different approach, perhaps because he got burned claiming Dionysus last game.

I accuse Guild

Heron and spineshark both claimed Priest. Priests are given the god of a random other role, so it doesn't make much difference which one they claim, although certain ones could cause misunderstandings.

botticus
10-02-2011, 08:06 PM
Did Guild just admit to being evil? Not in the same syntax as the defined citizen post, specifically likes painful yells and won't take prisoners?

Is it too early for a victory dance? I know, information shut down and all that jazz, but day one mafia how often does that happen?

Yeah, that... that's hard to ignore. I mean, we have a sample role PM in the first post. It's there so if you're Mafia, you can concoct a fitting backstory if this sort of situation arises. And perhaps omit an extra section of your role PM that doesn't fit the template because it's not a citizen role. You may or may not agree with the method, but our alignment/gender/race/class/god is information in this game. If it was never to be referred to, our role PMs would just say "you're a citizen" or "you're an outsider" and be done with it.

I have a relatively hard time believing a wizard/tourist wouldn't get a god since they are still citizens, they're just special citizens.

Guild, I think your #4 could be the same as chady's #1.

I accuse Guild.

On the bright side, if we fuck up and lynch you as a citizen, you'll probably get a bit of slack next time around if you keep playing.

chady
10-02-2011, 08:17 PM
Not from me he won't. If he's mafia then he's just a bad liar and still might be useful as town. If he's citizen then he's either fundamentally broken or a troll. (Or dtsund set him up.)

Krakenbrau
10-02-2011, 08:21 PM
Alright, for reference:

Day 1 Votes

Guild - 17

Nich
Brickroad
Krakenbrau
Egarwaen
Umby
Eddie
Yimothy
namelessentity
WormRider
Karzac
Solitayre
Nodal
schep
dwolfe
chady
breakman
botticus


Brickroad - 1

Karzac
Destil


Krakenbrau - 2

poetfox
Guild
dwolfe


I believe this is accurate. And I think it's in order, as well.

Eddie
10-02-2011, 08:21 PM
On the bright side, if we fuck up and lynch you as a citizen, you'll probably get a bit of slack next time around if you keep playing.

Not while he continues to double-post Lugh-damnit!

On a different topic...

... last game ended with a large number of players sitting with $50 burning a hole in their pocket. given how many players we have, it might be a good idea to throw all that money around at items. In that vein, it might be worthwhile for all players to make sure all their money is thrown at items before the day ends. The mafia can't match our total resources, and if everyone is betting all their money the likelihood you'll lose it all isn't that high since you're unlikely to win every auction.

Thoughts on auction theory? Seems like a more useful way to end the day...

- Eddie

Krakenbrau
10-02-2011, 08:23 PM
... last game ended with a large number of players sitting with $50 burning a hole in their pocket. given how many players we have, it might be a good idea to throw all that money around at items. In that vein, it might be worthwhile for all players to make sure all their money is thrown at items before the day ends. The mafia can't match our total resources, and if everyone is betting all their money the likelihood you'll lose it all isn't that high since you're unlikely to win every auction.

Thoughts on auction theory? Seems like a more useful way to end the day...

- Eddie

I was already doing this, for exactly those reasons. Praise Lugh, brother/friend/darling.

poetfox
10-02-2011, 08:33 PM
Guild, man, this is twice now I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt here. I saw madness, and I wanted badly to see method in it.

I don't know where you're going with this, though. I don't believe, as people have been throwing out there for no reason whatsoever, that dtsund would ruin his own game by setting you up to be lynched via something stupid like this. THAT makes no sense at all, and just ruins the fun for everyone while ruining his reputation as a GM. Since dtsund went out of his way to put a sample role PM in the rules so that this very thing would not occur, I also don't believe he would send you a PM in two parts, because that would be undercutting his own rules that he made, and why would you do that? Even if he did, he would have sent a "fixed" PM that looks like the example.

I don't see what this argument gets you. I don't. Please tell me.

In the meantime, this is what I get for giving people the benefit of the doubt, I guess? Bleh, I don't know.
I accuse Guild. Let's get this over with.


And for the record, I still think these reveals were pretty stupid! We should have gotten zilch from them, and bad people were going to use them to eat up time discussing nothing and arguing based on nothing. But Guild is Guild, I guess. I wonder if there's anything we could have been discussing that he wouldn't have done something like this with.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 08:35 PM
The reason why a Tourist or Wizard would still need to lie about their gods is that the gods we worship match those (http://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Gods) that characters of our alignment and class worship in NetHack (if anyone wants to go back through the thread and see if anybody's claimed god doesn't match their claimed alignment/class, that would be nice, but I doubt there's anything to find). If the Tourist or Wizard claimed a class/alignment combo that no one else had yet, they would need to know the correct god to claim as well. The same, I imagine, goes for the Outsiders, though I'm guessing they just worship Moloch instead of the god they should have normally.

I've been checking people's claims against that list, and I'm pretty sure Guild's the only one whose role hasn't matched his god.

Karzac
10-02-2011, 08:37 PM
Yeah, any reservations I had about accusing Guild are gone. Like chady said, if he's Mafia, he had every opportunity to lie convincingly. If he's innocent, he's done a damn poor job of convincing us. Why the hell would dtsund send one player (and only one player) two role PMs?

Now, considering we have 24 hours left, what are we going to talk about? I'd like to hear from Nich, who hasn't posted since the first page. Why so shy, Mr. Wizard?

WormRider
10-02-2011, 09:11 PM
A question for anyone around right now, before I think out loud too much:

If we presume that Guild is either a Wizard, Tourist, or Outsider, without any real evidence of which one he is, is it worth lynching him today?

If he's the wizard or tourist and somehow we magically know it, then we shouldn't lynch him no matter how bad a player he is because he's innocent. I've been thinking too, though, that if he's an outsider, being Guild, he may accidentally reveal the outsiders' exclusive knowledge later (as seen in the last game), and that's advantageous for us. That's the only reason I see for not lynching him right away.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 09:26 PM
We aren't going to find out if he's the wizard or the tourist until we lynch him. The only way for the wizard to prove their identity is to give away items today, since nobody else has any, and that only proves it to whoever receives the items. That didn't work out so well last time. I don't think it's possible for the tourist to prove their identity at all.

If he's an outsider, we should definitely lynch him straight away. I don't think we can trust any information we learn from him, whether it's info he meant to tell us or stuff he lets slip. If he lives to the end of the day, he gets to participate in the auction. Since outsiders have more money than us, he can outbid us on whichever item he wants and give it to his team.

Brickroad
10-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Re: Two PMs

I got two PMs. The first was the standard role PM, but it identified the wrong god (Raijin). The second fixes the error and declares me a worshipper of Amaterasu Omikami (which I believe is correct for a lawful samurai).

This is why I was (1) open to the idea that dtsund had made a mistake, and (2) certain that he would catch and fix the error. That Guild has not mentioned this tells me it didn't happen. Ergo, he is an outsider. Ergo, he must die.


Re: Auction Strategy

Speaking as a reformed Juiblex, coordinating bids was a huge part of the game. It's true they can muscle us out of individual items, but they can only do this on six items. We have way more money and way more shoppers. We need to leverage this.

So I'm going to propose the opposite strategy I did to my wonderful fiends in the last MafiaHack: I propose we buy fucking everything. Everyone put their full 50 on something. Tomorrow, we'll know which items were purchased, and which ones were lost. If three people say, for example, say "I put 50 on READ ME" and didn't get it!" that is a pretty strong red flag.

The tourist, conversely, should bid on nothing. In a few days after we've gotten some items ID'd, he can drop his stack on something useful. Or, he could simply cap his bid at 50, play the same game as the rest of us, and thereby remove "I won x because I'm the tourist" as an outsider play. We snaked you with that one, as I recall.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 09:59 PM
The problem with that is if two people both bid 50 zorkmids for something, only one of them will get it. We have no way to distinguish between someone bidding 50 zorkmids for an item but not getting it because an outsider outbid them or them not getting it because they lost the coin flip.

Brickroad
10-02-2011, 10:10 PM
That's true, but it still gives us more information than we would have had otherwise. I'm certainly not advocating a strategy of "He won a scroll! Get 'im!"

What it gains us is this: if a few people throw 50 at a scroll, and nobody fesses up to winning, we can reasonably assume an outsider won it.

Plus, citizens who win items, and publically announce that, have a stake in seeing those items used wisely. A reasonable citizen should be open to discussion on how best to use his wand or potion. A fiend can't really fake this, nor can they say one thing and then do the opposite. Winning Stinking Cloud in this environment might put them in the ridiculous situation of having to choose which of their number dies.

We will know where all the items are, at all times. And we will all have a say in how those items are best implemented.

Our biggest fear as fiends was someone getting Object Detection and figuring out who had all those wands. That would have been Game Over for us. We won because of Wizphone, true... but we also won because Town didn't get their treasure game together until Day Four. Let's get ours together on Day One.

WormRider
10-02-2011, 10:12 PM
I think the idea is that we don't let the outsiders have more than 6 items, because if we all bid 50 on everything, the outsiders can outbid us only 6 times. Our strength is in our number.

Krakenbrau
10-02-2011, 10:17 PM
I like this idea. The only possible issue I see is that the outsiders will also know who's got which items. But I still think it's better than no plan at all.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 10:25 PM
I don't intend to participate. This just seems like a good way to go broke to me.

Heron
10-02-2011, 10:28 PM
For those interested, I follow Blind Io.

Re: Auction Strategy

So I'm going to propose the opposite strategy I did to my wonderful fiends in the last MafiaHack: I propose we buy fucking everything. Everyone put their full 50 on something. Tomorrow, we'll know which items were purchased, and which ones were lost. If three people say, for example, say "I put 50 on READ ME" and didn't get it!" that is a pretty strong red flag.

The tourist, conversely, should bid on nothing. In a few days after we've gotten some items ID'd, he can drop his stack on something useful. Or, he could simply cap his bid at 50, play the same game as the rest of us, and thereby remove "I won x because I'm the tourist" as an outsider play. We snaked you with that one, as I recall.

This could be a really good idea. It'll prevent the mafia from learning about the items if we keep quiet about it for a while too, so they wouldn't know what to overbid on subsequent days. They can't afford to match the bids either since it'll ruin them in the long run, especially on unknown.

The problem with that is if two people both bid 50 zorkmids for something, only one of them will get it. We have no way to distinguish between someone bidding 50 zorkmids for an item but not getting it because an outsider outbid them or them not getting it because they lost the coin flip.

There is that. I wonder if we'll get any accusations about bids

Brickroad
10-02-2011, 10:30 PM
I don't intend to participate. This just seems like a good way to go broke to me.

That's part of the idea, smart guy. We have way, way more money than they do!

If you have some sound reasoning as to why we should value money over information, let's hear it. Otherwise your limp objection just sounds suspicious to me.

Karzac
10-02-2011, 10:33 PM
As much as I'm loathe to do anything Brickroad says to do, this plan has merit. I say we go for it.

WormRider
10-02-2011, 10:34 PM
I don't intend to participate. This just seems like a good way to go broke to me.

We're not trying to not go broke, though. We're trying to make sure that the useful tools fall into the hands of the citizens, and also gaining information at the same time.

Umby
10-02-2011, 10:56 PM
It's not wasting money if it's keeping items out of the outsiders' hands. At the very least if we know that an item that is unaccounted for is used at any time, the user has a high chance of being an outsider. We can't guarantee that all seven items today will be bidded on with all 50 zorkmids a person has, but there's a very high chance with 20+ people that this will happen without having to coordinate in the thread.

As much as I hate to say it, Brickroad has a good plan.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 10:57 PM
So you guys go with this plan, and in a few days we have no money and a bunch of publicly identified items. The outsiders are then free to buy whatever they like for cheap. Great.

Are you all gonna coordinate your bids to make sure you don't all wind up bidding on the same thing?

Brickroad
10-02-2011, 11:11 PM
Assuming the town wins all seven items every day, that no outsider ever bids on anything, and that we don't identify any items to avoid (such as ID scrolls, etc.), we will be bankrupt on the morning of Day Three.

Of course, we'll also have nineteen items and lots of information to work with. I guess this counts for nothing in the Yimothy playbook.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 11:21 PM
The end of day three, actually. And the ID scrolls will identify themselves by how frequently they come up. Unless we get lucky with life saving there'll be at least three dead townies, probably more from bad lynches, so we won't have 19 items. Nobody who has any items will have been able to use scrolls of identify on them because they can't afford to buy them.

Your plan can go ahead with or without me. At least if I'm still alive I'll be able to pick up some bargains once everyone else is broke.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 11:27 PM
Unless we get lucky with life saving there'll be at least two dead townies, probably more from bad lynches, so we won't have 19 items.

Whoops. I originally wrote this as the start of day four, rather than the end of day three.

Brickroad
10-02-2011, 11:38 PM
Your plan can go ahead with or without me. At least if I'm still alive I'll be able to pick up some bargains once everyone else is broke.

Then you should know I'll be voting you you first thing tomorrow. A player's concern for going broke seems to be a function of whether his team has six people on it, or nineteen.

Yimothy
10-02-2011, 11:55 PM
My concern isn't that I'll go broke, it's that in a few days the outsiders will have total control of any items that come up.

My other concern is that Brickroad actually participating in a mafia game usually means he's mafia.

Brickroad
10-03-2011, 12:01 AM
My concern isn't that I'll go broke, it's that in a few days the outsiders will have total control of any items that come up.

Only if they go three days without buying anything. Hell, a plan that freezes the outsiders into inaction until Day Four? Sign me the crap up!

My other concern is that Brickroad actually participating in a mafia game usually means he's mafia.

I expect there's an accusation forthcoming, then?

Solitayre
10-03-2011, 12:18 AM
I expect there's an accusation forthcoming, then?


Anyone else having deja vu?... (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=992716#post992716)

Guild
10-03-2011, 12:30 AM
First of all, I never said I got two PMs. Where did that come from? And why is nobody blinking that Brickroad just said his role pm had a mistake, but it was corrected, WHILE you all kill me for the same problem? Maybe I have to request a correction?? Can I have intervention here? This is a bit silly. What is this game? Does the ... moderator help me play?

Brickroad
10-03-2011, 12:41 AM
Anyone else having deja vu?... (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?p=992716#post992716)

Go ahead, stack up the votes. I got nothin' to hide, and I still win if I'm dead.

But do not make the same mistake the last MH Town did. Do not wait until Day Four to start playing the item game. Win as many items as you can as early as you can, and be forthcoming with what you buy, trade and use.

The outsiders will either have to forfeit the items to us, or they will have to lie overtly about what they're doing. Either way, it is harder for them to hide.

Krakenbrau
10-03-2011, 12:43 AM
First of all, I never said I got two PMs. Where did that come from? And why is nobody blinking that Brickroad just said his role pm had a mistake, but it was corrected, WHILE you all kill me for the same problem? Maybe I have to request a correction?? Can I have intervention here? This is a bit silly. What is this game? Does the ... moderator help me play?

You said (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1164440&postcount=177) your PM came in two parts. We took that to mean you got two PMs. If that's not the case, then what did you mean?

We're accusing you because you claim that your role PM has no god, and that you didn't receive a correction. There's no way dtsund would have missed that, especially since he did correct Brickroad's. Why would he fix one, but not the other? He is paying close attention, and would intervene if he felt it necessary. Since he hasn't, we'll continue with the belief that you're an outsider.

Destil
10-03-2011, 12:53 AM
The biggest problem I see with Brick's plan is that the outsiders also have all this information to work with from day three forward, with the town bankrupt and unable to actually do anything with said information. Like put down competitive bids on scrolls of cloud kill.

It seems like a good strategy if we can win on day four, but I don't see that happening. It also has the same flaws of many plans in these games: citizens who can't be convinced to play along muddy the results and there's no way to avoid that.

Brickroad
10-03-2011, 01:01 AM
There are risks with any plan, I do concede.

But NetHack and MafiaHack often reward risk-taking. I'm willing to gun for it.

dtsund
10-03-2011, 01:02 AM
#tally

Guild: 18
Nich
Brickroad
Krakenbrau
Egarwaen
Umby
Eddie
Yimothy
namelessentity
WormRider
Karzac
Solitayre
Nodal
schep
dwolfe
chady
breakman
botticus
poetfox

Brickroad: 1
Destil

Krakenbrau: 1
Guild

Day ends in 19 hours.

Krakenbrau
10-03-2011, 01:05 AM
The biggest problem I see with Brick's plan is that the outsiders also have all this information to work with from day three forward, with the town bankrupt and unable to actually do anything with said information. Like put down competitive bids on scrolls of cloud kill.

It seems like a good strategy if we can win on day four, but I don't see that happening. It also has the same flaws of many plans in these games: citizens who can't be convinced to play along muddy the results and there's no way to avoid that.

I see what you're getting at here, but I think it's only gonna be detrimental to us if we fail to kill 2 or 3 outsiders by Day 4. Even then, we won't be able to buy anything (except the tourist, if he/she follows Brick's plan and buys nothing until we're all broke), but we'll be able to identify almost everything up for auction that day, which will give us a better idea of what items the outsiders have.

I agree that it's hard to make this type of plan work without a strong majority of citizens playing along, though.

Count me as in.

Yimothy
10-03-2011, 01:15 AM
The outsiders will either have to forfeit the items to us, or they will have to lie overtly about what they're doing. Either way, it is harder for them to hide.

I disagree. They can play along, reveal what they bought and what it did, and once we're all broke they'll have 15 zorkmids each left over. 14 if they decide they really want a particular item. Nobody knows whether they bid 50 and the RNG went their way or if they bid 51. If they get good items they can use them as they like and say they thought it was the best move for the town. They do risk getting caught out by the ring of searching and the potion of object detection, but they'll know who have those items and will be able to eliminate them.

Brickroad
10-03-2011, 01:20 AM
The alternative is:

They get everything they want anyway, PLUS all the other benefits you mentioned... except they don't have to lie about (or keep secret) what they bought or bid on.

As fiends, we had a reasonable idea of what was in play, and therefore what contingencies to plan for, as early as Day Two. They'll do this whether or not we make an effore to win as much as possible.

Would you be willing to discuss, perhaps, a lower enforced bid cap? Say, 35zm? Fiends can still outbid us, although the same fiend can't do it twice, and it leaves money in the game for much longer. (Of course, it also means more Townies go to their graves with $$ in their pockets.)

Destil
10-03-2011, 01:29 AM
I see what you're getting at here, but I think it's only gonna be detrimental to us if we fail to kill 2 or 3 outsiders by Day 4.

... in the history of TT mafia, how many games have we ever killed 2 or 3 people by day 4? I'm still working out the details of how Bricks' plan goes down in my head, but is that's the main situation it gives us an advantage (and I think it's not, but it is indeed risky), then it's just a 'win more' option that we shouldn't bother with.

Yimothy
10-03-2011, 01:43 AM
I don't see why they need to lie about their items or keep them secret under your plan. They just have to lie about their motivations for how they use them. "I thought person x was suspicious so I used item y on them" is not hard to come up with, and is hard to disprove.

Anyway, the lowered cap makes a lot more sense to me. I can't think of any advantage to spending all your money when the outsiders can still outbid you if you do. Might as well keep some for later purchases. I don't think townies dying with fifteen extra zorkmids on them makes any actual difference when the alternative is they spent them to get the same item they could have had for 35.

Guild
10-03-2011, 01:46 AM
I have been kicking the shit out of my old brain trying to figure out why it is crystal clear to me that something absolutely insipid is going on in this game but 1) not clear to anyone else and 2) seemingly impossible for me to articulate to y'all.

Then just now, I got it.

Like lightning, it hit me.

You guys are, like, third generation 'net mafia-ers. You don't know what REAL mafia is.







I... I sorta want to laugh. It's like when the technowizard in the sci fi books finds a race of bomb-worshiping religious nuts who think their ceremonies are summoning god.












Ok, here's the poopoo.






Mafia is defined by the creator as an informed minority battling an uninformed majority. By taking a body of player-specific content (the fact that we have role PMs) and asking everyone in the game to reveal part or all of that somewhat known content you are playing one type of game. This is VASTLY DIFFERENT from playing a game in which the MAJORITY are completely in the dark about EVERYTHING. Suddenly you have a "known value" you can check lies against, versus the utterly blank canvas that the game is supposed to start with.

Suppose I'm lying? What are you going to say then? Brickroad's a good partner, though, so I'll let him keep leading you guys.

See what I did there? That's called WIFOM. Town's robbed me of the only tool I have (WIFOM) WHILE denying me the possibility that I'm not lying? Why? I've heard people profess to hate the term WIFOM and me for using it. We often burn books when our ignorance makes us angry instead of open-minded. There is an INCREDIBLY important lesson (and mechanic) that you are missing in your mafia games.

http://brontoforum.us/index.php?topic=3162.msg89665#msg89665

That's me explaining my game. Yes, mafia's my game. And no, I can't win a game being played by the misguided fools I see before me. Maybe if they heed some wisdom, but at this rate I'm going to lose BECAUSE I'm the only decent player this town even has at the moment.

Solitayre
10-03-2011, 01:50 AM
Nonsense


I don't know whether to laugh or cry for you.

Fake edit: But Nich does.

Brickroad
10-03-2011, 01:58 AM
I don't think townies dying with fifteen extra zorkmids on them makes any actual difference when the alternative is they spent them to get the same item they could have had for 35.

If you don't think it makes a difference, what's the problem? Bid big or go home.

I already put 50 on a wand. You do just whatever your little heart desires, but mark me, bidding conservatively is a good way to never own anything in this game. First time I played an auction-based game (at Bronto) I bid small on lots of items, never won a thing, and eventually was killed by the same "kill someone who targets you" item I'd tried to win.

Second time, I told my team to bid big and monopolize wands, and we did, and we won.

Third time, I ran the game and therefore had access to the bid statistics. A few people got lucky, but the big ticket items went to the dudes who put up their fat stack all at once.

Another risk to bidding small: the outsiders can coordinate. We can't. They can, say, spread 30zm bids over everything just to snap up anything we don't go after.

If they know we're serious about winning auctions, they're either going to have to bid 51, or wait four days. That's a shitty position to be in, and I like it when the mob's in a shitty position.

Egarwaen
10-03-2011, 02:09 AM
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Care to join me for a spot of hysterical laughter? Oh, I see you're already here. Try the "fiscal collapse '08", it's a particularly good vintage.

Guild, I'm sorry we're playing mafia wrong. Our badwrongfun is clearly inferior to your supergoodfun.

In summary, hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Krakenbrau
10-03-2011, 02:16 AM
If you don't think it makes a difference, what's the problem? Bid big or go home.

I already put 50 on a wand. You do just whatever your little heart desires, but mark me, bidding conservatively is a good way to never own anything in this game. First time I played an auction-based game (at Bronto) I bid small on lots of items, never won a thing, and eventually was killed by the same "kill someone who targets you" item I'd tried to win.

Second time, I told my team to bid big and monopolize wands, and we did, and we won.

Third time, I ran the game and therefore had access to the bid statistics. A few people got lucky, but the big ticket items went to the dudes who put up their fat stack all at once.

Another risk to bidding small: the outsiders can coordinate. We can't. They can, say, spread 30zm bids over everything just to snap up anything we don't go after.

If they know we're serious about winning auctions, they're either going to have to bid 51, or wait four days. That's a shitty position to be in, and I like it when the mob's in a shitty position.

For what it's worth, I've thrown my 50 on an item as well.

Guild
10-03-2011, 02:18 AM
No no, I'm not calling your fun bad, it's just that you're not PLAYING mafia here. You're playing... lie about the things we're told by the guy who knows everything. That's cool with me. I'll just change my strategy to cover for what is apparently a weakness in the eyes of this town by being even MORE stubborn next time and straight up refusing to ever claim anything. What are you going to do then, lynch me every time I'm the seer or whatever? I'm not the player who needs to adapt here: My role is mine and so is my play style. Lynch me for hating me, but that won't win you the game.

And yeah, half the time I'm double posting to piss you off. Yes, you, the person who just nodded while reading that. Feel vindicated?

To lower my context, what I'm ACTUALLY saying in that last paragraph is that HTML separations between my thoughts because I'm not allowed to edit my posts is not as annoying as being a twat over communication methods IMHO.

Guild
10-03-2011, 02:24 AM
honestly... i'm at a loss

you guys are asking me to prove i'm a good player while denying me any opportunity to prove it by just doing what i tell you to do

it's mind blowing

Brickroad
10-03-2011, 02:29 AM
What god do you worship, Guild?

Guild
10-03-2011, 02:31 AM
your fat mom's hairy, pickle smooching lips, sausage holster

Yimothy
10-03-2011, 02:35 AM
If you don't think it makes a difference, what's the problem? Bid big or go home.

I think you misunderstood me. You put forward players dying with unspent money as a disadvantage of a lowered bid cap. I'm saying I don't think it is a disadvantage.

Actually I think the sweet spot for the bid cap is 33zm. It leaves players with 17zm, and outsiders with 32 (assuming they match, rather than outbid). That means the outsiders can only outbid townies who still have all their money once, just the same as they can if we bid 50zm. Once all the townies are down to 17zm, the mafia will still be able to outbid them with their 32, but only once, rather than winning every subsequent auction because they're the only ones with any money left.

Not that I plan on going through with that plan, either. I made my bids at the start of the day, and I have not yet been convinced to change them. I probably won't win anything today, but I'm ok with that. Last game, I got a lot of items very cheap in the last few days. I was also able to use my leftover money to get the potion of object detection on the last night. If we'd lasted one more day I could've used it, which probably would have found me some demons.

Guild, I don't care if I'm playing mafia or not. This is the game we have, it's the game we enjoy, and if you can't adapt to it that's your problem, not ours. You're reminding me of an essay by David Foster Wallace called "Authority and American Usage". 20 seconds on Google unfortunately didn't turn up an online version, but it's in the collection Consider the Lobster. You should check it out.

Solitayre
10-03-2011, 02:38 AM
I'll just change my strategy to cover for what is apparently a weakness in the eyes of this town by being even MORE stubborn next time and straight up refusing to ever claim anything. What are you going to do then, lynch me every time I'm the seer or whatever? I'm not the player who needs to adapt here: My role is mine and so is my play style. Lynch me for hating me, but that won't win you the game.

And yeah, half the time I'm double posting to piss you off. Yes, you, the person who just nodded while reading that. Feel vindicated?



Okay, how about we lynch you because you gave yourself away as a bad guy within minutes of your first post?

Here are the number of ways you could easily have faked this:

A. A sample role PM is listed in the OP
B. Almost two dozen players revealed before you did and any of their roles would have been perfectly valid for you to claim.
C. You could have done research on the NetHack wiki that the GM actually posted right there in the thread for you to use.

But you didn't. In fact, you straight up admitted that you hadn't even read the thread.

But it's all of us that are the terrible players here, not you. You're the best player here.

Here is a list of things good players don't do:

1. Good players do not out themselves as bad guys in their first five posts.
2. Good players do not have six votes against them before they post in the thread.
3. Good players do not throw around dozens of completely random and baseless accusations with no supporting evidence and then complain that no one is taking them seriously.
4. Good players do not troll games.

I'm honestly getting pretty irritated. Giving yourself away so easily really takes the fun out of the game, and the fact that you turn around and call us terrible over your mistake is just staggering.

Guild
10-03-2011, 02:38 AM
yims, if you knew me a lot better, you'd be laughing really hard at that post you just made

Guild
10-03-2011, 02:39 AM
Okay, how about we lynch you because you gave yourself away as a bad guy within minutes of your first post?

Here are the number of ways you could easily have faked this:

A. A sample role PM is listed in the OP
B. Almost two dozen players revealed before you did and any of their roles would have been perfectly valid for you to claim.
C. You could have done research on the NetHack wiki that the GM actually posted right there in the thread for you to use.

But you didn't. In fact, you straight up admitted that you hadn't even read the thread.

But it's all of us that are the terrible players here, not you. You're the best player here.

Here is a list of things good players don't do:

1. Good players do not out themselves as bad guys in their first five posts.
2. Good players do not have six votes against them before they post in the thread.
3. Good players do not throw around dozens of completely random and baseless accusations with no supporting evidence and then complain that no one is taking them seriously.
4. Good players do not troll games.

I'm honestly getting pretty irritated. Giving yourself away so easily really takes the fun out of the game, and the fact that you turn around and call us terrible over your mistake is just staggering.

Except that I'm just telling you the absolute truth! Aaaaah~``

Guild
10-03-2011, 02:40 AM
1. Good players do not out themselves as bad guys in their first five posts.
2. Good players do not have six votes against them before they post in the thread.
3. Good players do not throw around dozens of completely random and baseless accusations with no supporting evidence and then complain that no one is taking them seriously.
4. Good players do not troll games.

Experienced players know what WIFOM is.