PDA

View Full Version : Watchmen


Evil Dead Junkie
06-09-2007, 01:13 AM
I'm rereading Watchmen for the first time in about five years and have thus decided to start a petition to officially change its name to creamy goodness.

Seriously its one of those blessed rereadings where every twenty pages or so I come across a sequence and go "Yeah I remember this this part kicks ass this is my favorite part of the book." and then twenty pages later I repeat the phrase.

People always remember how important the book is. But I think we forget just how goddamned good it is.

Sheana
06-09-2007, 02:11 AM
Alas, I have a few friends who refuse to read Watchmen now because they found out about Lost Girls.

Sanagi
06-09-2007, 02:17 AM
Watchmen is dripping with brilliance.

SkywardShadow
06-09-2007, 02:25 AM
Well said.

Alan Moore's stuff is top-notch, but Watchmen is probably his most influential.

A movie is being made, despite the fact that neither the author nor the artist want one.

mr_bungle700
06-09-2007, 04:30 AM
I dare not hope for any Watchmen adaptation to even remotely approach the book in terms of quality and depth, but I do hope that the film is at least somewhat effective in conveying the mood and story of the book. If it can do that much my love for the source material will at least allow me to enjoy what parts of it exist in the film.

The funny bit is that one of Moore and Gibbons' main priorities in creating the book was doing something that could only be done in comic form and that wouldn't work on film. So we'll see how trying to adapt it turns out.

But uh, yeah. About the book. It's good. "Fearful Symmetry" is one of my favorite chapters/episodes/whatever of any story.

sraymonds
06-09-2007, 07:10 AM
Alas, I have a few friends who refuse to read Watchmen now because they found out about Lost Girls.

Lost Girls? Please explain this one to me. I was not programmed to understand love.

Thinaran
06-09-2007, 07:26 AM
Alan Moore is a pedo!!



... and I didn't care very much for Watchmen. I can understand why you guys keep referring to it as a book.

BEAT
06-09-2007, 10:03 AM
Unforunately, I'm with Thinaran on this one.

Nothing against the book, but for me to enjoy any fiction, I usually have to like at least one of the characters. Sadly the deep psycological profiles of the cast of Watchmen were lost on me, as I found myself thinking time and time again "Dude, don't be a dick."

I guess this means I fail.

Also, according to wikipedia, Lost girls is mostly lesbian porn, only with classic chidren's story characters. This does very little to relieve my skeptcisim towards "Alan Moore is a genius" type statements.

JCDenton
06-09-2007, 10:43 AM
I read it for the first time a few months ago and I have to say I really enjoyed it. While most of the characters were somewhat unlikable, at least they were interesting. Plus, the ending was awesome. There is no way the movie could do justice to it, but since when has that stopped filmmakers?

Evil Dead Junkie
06-09-2007, 02:30 PM
If I ever discover how to travel between dimensions I'd immediately search out the worlds in which each failed Watchman adaptation succeeded.

Seriously how cool would it be to look at Terry Gilliam's, Paul Greengrass's, and Darren Afronsky's versions side by side.

I think the answer is mighty fucking cool.

Personally I'm looking forward to the movie, if only because Synder's self leaked character test of Rorsarch gave me geek wood.

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-09-2007, 06:25 PM
To be completely honest, I think Alan Moore is kind of a pompous jerk who thinks comics are way, but waaaaaaay too much more than they actually are. His philosophical views are worse than those held by alcoholics with delirium tremens who think they are a ninja turtle. He is a delirious asshole with nothing important to say to anyone but to himself. Also, he is a pedophile.

I did enjoy Watchmen but only because of all the little details and effort that was put into it. I don't think it's a great philosophical statement on anything (important at least). I enjoyed other 80's comics like The Crow much more and also El Capitan Trueno.

There are millions of comic artists better and more professional than Moore including Steve Ditko.

estragon
06-09-2007, 09:08 PM
I love Watchmen, but my question here is this: Is the entire foundation of the accusation that Alan Moore is a pedophile the fact that he wrote Lost Girls? Why do people think that makes him a pedophile? It's cool if Lost Girls is not your thing (and it's not mine either), but are we seriously saying now that writing something about a controversial topic necessarily means you want to engage in whatever act you're writing about in real life?

I could give counterexamples of this, but the whole idea of calling Alan Moore a pedophile because of a work of fiction he wrote that deconstructs fairy tale characters seems like such a blatantly ridiculous ad hominem attack that it feels pointless to argue against it with logic.

juanfrugalj
06-09-2007, 09:21 PM
I haven't read Lost Girls, so I wouldn't know.

Watchmen is a fine piece of work, as Moore's stuff tends to be, but in most interviews I've read, he comes off as being full of himself. All things considered, he seems to be a really talented jerk. But then again, aren't we all relatively talented jerks?

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-09-2007, 09:24 PM
No, the basis for the acusation about Alan Moore being a pedophile is not Lost Girls. Is that he likes it:

"And when we talk about say, you know, sex with minors in "Lost Girls," this has to be seen in a context of the fact that what weíre doing is weíre exploring the whole of the human sexual imagination. Clearly the idea of sex with minors is a very big part of that.

Weíve got magazines like "Barely Legal" on both sides of the pond. And yes, we are told that these are all sort of just young looking people who are in fact over the age of consent.

Whether that is true or not, I mean, we all remember Traci Lords. Most people, if theyíre told that these people are over the age of consent, that makes it all right. Whereas the intention is obviously exactly the same as with anybody with pedophile inclinations.

This stuff has to be discussed. And I think that itís important that we come up with a form of pornography in which these ideas can be discussed openly because there seems to me to be a way in which pornography functions in societies and it depends upon the relationship of those societies to their sexuality.

When you have countries like America and England. Well letís look at the other side of the coin first. Youíve got countries like Denmark, Holland and Spain, where they have a very liberal attitude toward pornography, where quite hardcore pornography apparently is freely available in regular family bookstores and nobody pays it any attention because itís so ubiquitous.

In these countries they might have their houses wallpapered with pornography. What they donít have is anything like the amount of sex crime that we get here or in America. And certainly not the amount of sex crime against children. They look at countries like us and the U.S. with horror.

Now that suggests that there is some difference in the way we regard our own sexuality between sort of more liberal countries and countries like ours. I wonder if it might not be in our culture pornography mainly functions as a control leash.

We live in very, very sexualized cultures. Every advertisement on television, whether it sells cars or perfume or pop noodles is liable to be slathered with sexual ideas, sexual imagery. Now this is not just selling cars and pop noodles. Sex is also selling itself. It is increasing the sexual temperature of the culture if you like.

So when youíve got somebody who has been inflamed by the sheer amount of sexualized material around them, [they will seek some sort of release]. In America, generally speaking, the moment that release has been obtained there will be inevitable feelings of wretchedness, self-loathing, shame, guilt.

Now this is a bit like a kind of a really sinister Skinner rat experiment where youíve got the rat so that they will respond to the stimulus by pressing the lever to get their reward. But these Skinner boxes are wired differently so that the moment they get their reward, they also get their punishment, they get this electric shock of guilt and shame.

And I suspect that rats actually kept in those conditions would probably go a bit crazy after awhile. And I suspect in healthy cultures, pornography might even be providing some sort of vital safety valve, as evidenced by the lower sex crime figures of those countries where they do have a liberal attitude towards pornography.

It strikes me that if there was a way to sever that instant connection between sex and guilt then I think we might be healthier cultures because of that. I think that if we could actually own up to the sexual thoughts that may pass through our mind, realize that we are not monsters for having these thoughts, realize that these thoughts are in no way connected to reality, that itís perfectly O.K. within the confines of your mind to think whatever you want.

And if you are in a culture that tells you that is not so, that keeps that pressure cooker lid on, then the only possible kind of relief is an explosion. An explosion into actual real violence of real abuse of real people in the real world.

So it strikes me that in some ways it is the very prudishness of our cultures and the shame-faced guilty way that we perceive sexual material that actually causes a lot of the sexual problems that we seem tormented by."

Quoted from: http://panelsandpixels.blogspot.com/2006/08/interview-with-alan-moore-part-1.html

Like I said before. Here Alan Moore is pretty much saying: In our prude society people don't understand child sexuality and we should be allowed to watch kids fucking. Like Tracy Lords. Also, I'm Leonardo! Feel my sword bitch!

poetfox
06-09-2007, 09:30 PM
I don't understand how that proves your point at all. Also, I agree with most of that. Am I a pedophile? That could be a useful thing to know.

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-09-2007, 09:37 PM
I don't understand how that proves your point at all. Also, I agree with most of that. Am I a pedophile? That could be a useful thing to know.

I think you are right. I think that if we just allow child pornography to be freely distributed, child molesters will just cool off jerking off at home and will not go out to rape any kids.

I propose we begin the Jessica Lunsford Legalize Child Porn campaign. Because we remember.

It's not child porn, it's a safety valve honey.

poetfox
06-09-2007, 09:45 PM
I think it's pretty damn wrong to involve real children in porn, of course, but there are plenty of drawn alternatives if you're into those sorts of things, and I say, have at it, if that's your thing. Who the hell is it hurting if it's just between you and God or whatever?
That aside, though, him taking this stance still doesn't prove he's a pedophile in any way. And even if he happens to find underage girls or boys sexy, who cares if he doesn't act on it?

Excitemike
06-09-2007, 09:56 PM
I haven't read the collected Lost Girls, but I did read the chapters that were serialized in Taboo in the early '90's. I'm looking through them now, in fact, and I can't find anything that would meet the criteria of child pornography as there are not any children in it. Can you site a source? Pedophilia is a pretty serious charge, I'd like to see some proof. You don't have to post scans, just give me a page number and I can look it up.

P.S. Watchmen is petty rad. I have zero hope for the film adaptation.

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-09-2007, 09:59 PM
Jesus people. I already said that the basis for the accusation is NOT Lost Girls. It's that he thinks it's alright for someone to appreciate naked kids having sex and he thinks it should be considered normal for someone to have thoughts about fucking children. O.K. maybe he is not a pedophile, but he thinks it's a'O.K. to be one. Which, I personally find just as disgusting.

Excitemike
06-09-2007, 10:08 PM
That's not what he said. He's suggesting open discussion about the things that lead to pedophilia, so it can be eliminated. He even calls it a sex crime.

In these countries they might have their houses wallpapered with pornography. What they donít have is anything like the amount of sex crime that we get here or in America. And certainly not the amount of sex crime against children. They look at countries like us and the U.S. with horror.

RAC
06-09-2007, 10:14 PM
To be completely honest, I think Alan Moore is kind of a pompous jerk who thinks comics are way, but waaaaaaay too much more than they actually are. His philosophical views are worse than those held by alcoholics with delirium tremens who think they are a ninja turtle. He is a delirious asshole with nothing important to say to anyone but to himself. Also, he is a pedophile.

I did enjoy Watchmen but only because of all the little details and effort that was put into it. I don't think it's a great philosophical statement on anything (important at least). I enjoyed other 80's comics like The Crow much more and also El Capitan Trueno.

There are millions of comic artists better and more professional than Moore including Steve Ditko.

If that was supposed to be a shot at Ditko, I'm not getting it. Eccentric on a personal level and in terms of his personal work, sure, but not unprofessional. Being unprofessional is probably against his wacky religion-masquerading-as-a-philosophy. (And that's how to take a shot at Ditko.)

And Moore has commented more than once, I believe, on how he feels Watchmen sort of "overburdened" superhero comics, and since I feel most of today's gloomy-ass superhero comics couldn't exist without it (read Civil War and all its spinoffs, if you dare, and tell me you don't see Watchmen Lite) I have to agree. I assume you mean "superhero comics" when you say "comics," because "comics" are just combinations of words and pictures on paper and can be whatever they want to be. Whereas superhero comics are juvenile escapist lit which by some cruel twist of fate are now being written by and for people aged 25 and up.

Also, you're just making an extremely emotional appeal against child pornography instead of actually proving that Alan Moore is a pedophile, and not just some guy with a view of sexuality that you're not at all comfortable with. Which is what I see here.

And the name is spelled "Zsa Zsa."

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-09-2007, 10:22 PM
That's not what he said. He's suggesting open discussion about the things that lead to pedophilia, so it can be eliminated. He even calls it a sex crime.

O.K. so he is a part of the prudish society he is denouncing? He is very contradictory. And I think he doesn't know what he is talking about Spain and other countries. It seems in Spain there's lots of pedophilia:
http://teletrece.canal13.cl/t13/html/Noticias/Internacional/222670.html
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2005/10/21/um/m-01075240.htm
http://www.lacuarta.cl/diario/2005/06/23/23.07.4a.VUE.ESPANIA.html (186 people arrested in non prudish Spain, for pedophilia).

So, what's it going to be Alan Moore? All I can say is that he should make up his fucking mind!

Excitemike
06-09-2007, 10:28 PM
I didn't know they had pedophilia in Spain. I guess Alan Moore is a pedo after all. Guys, stop liking Watchmen this instant, the guy is a perv!

estragon
06-09-2007, 10:33 PM
That's not what he said. He's suggesting open discussion about the things that lead to pedophilia, so it can be eliminated. He even calls it a sex crime.

1) I'm sorry everybody, I think I ruin every thread. I hope this doesn't spiral into the sort of mess that the going to Japan thread did. I don't mean to do it, it just happens.

2) For real, that's not what he said. The fact that someone can read all of that and simply think, "I guess he must be a pedophile" is more evidence of exactly what the point he's trying to make. Which is that sex in British and American culture is so tied with guilt and shame that it actually leads to more people doing things messed up things, like molesting children.

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-09-2007, 10:35 PM
I didn't know they had pedophilia in Spain. I guess Alan Moore is a pedo after all. Guys, stop liking Watchmen this instant, the guy is a perv!

Maybe not a pedophile. Just a very arrogant idiot who likes to pass as someone very deep. He is no guru or magus or whatever he likes to say he is. He is very contradictory, his way of thinking is no more consistent and coherent than Bill O'Reilly's. He is a crazy old man who never wants to be the bad guy. He is the prudish anti prudish, the communist capitalist. Again, I did say I enjoyed Watchmen but not because it is the best comic ever or a very deep meta comic or something.

Excitemike
06-09-2007, 10:37 PM
1) I'm sorry everybody, I think I ruin every thread. I hope this doesn't spiral into the sort of mess that the going to Japan thread did. I don't mean to do it, it just happens.

Nah, it's mostly my fault. I should practice what I preach. (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showthread.php?t=127)

estragon
06-09-2007, 10:42 PM
I didn't know they had pedophilia in Spain. I guess Alan Moore is a pedo after all. Guys, stop liking Watchmen this instant, the guy is a perv!

Well, I'm convinced. If there's pedophilia in Spain, then Alan Moore must be a pedophile, even if he explicitly refers to pedophilia as a horrific sex crime.

. . .

Also, how is it contradictory to denouce prudishness and also be against pedophila? I think that's a pretty sensible view, and it's one I hold myself.

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-10-2007, 12:41 AM
Also, Alan Moore fans and people who might like to "try before buying" might be interested to know that right now I'm seeding the torrent for Lost Girls in *.cbr format. I don't put a link but the torrent may be found in torrent spy.

And again, no, I do not think this book makes anyone a pedophile or is the basis for saying someone is a pedophile.

Evil Dead Junkie
06-10-2007, 11:08 AM
So...

Watchmen pretty neat huh?

(Hangs his head and leaves the thread to die)

Jakanden
06-10-2007, 12:52 PM
So...

Watchmen pretty neat huh?

(Hangs his head and leaves the thread to die)

Ignoring all the drama around the thread, I myself enjoyed Watchmen for the most part although there were some slow parts I could have done without. I have quite a bit of Alan Moore's stuff and enjoy his work overall.

Deadguy2322
06-10-2007, 01:08 PM
Ignoring all the drama around the thread, I myself enjoyed Watchmen for the most part although there were some slow parts I could have done without. I have quite a bit of Alan Moore's stuff and enjoy his work overall.

If you haven't had the chance, I highly recommend The Last Superman Story. It was a two-parter that ran in the final issues of Superman and Action Comics prior to The Man of Steel being released in 1986, and it is some amazing stuff. It appears in the DC Comics trade paperback with all of Moore's best work, can't remember the title right now.

Jakanden
06-10-2007, 01:20 PM
Haven't even heard of it much less read it. Thanks for the heads up

Jeanie
06-10-2007, 06:17 PM
If you haven't had the chance, I highly recommend The Last Superman Story. It was a two-parter that ran in the final issues of Superman and Action Comics prior to The Man of Steel being released in 1986, and it is some amazing stuff. It appears in the DC Comics trade paperback with all of Moore's best work, can't remember the title right now.

Wasn't the one that had "For the Man Who Has Everything" in it? God that was a good story. I was suprised by how close the JLU version was to the orginal, even keeping the best part when Superman says "Burn." and kicks his heat vision on full blast at point blank range.

liquid
06-10-2007, 07:24 PM
Watchmen was very well put together and all, but the entire thing felt so emotionally detached that the Rorschach and Doctor Manhattan chapters were the only parts that I really got invested in. And that ridiculous plot twist at the end, while it was obviously supposed to be ridiculous, just sort of pulled me out of it. I've always sort of considered Miracleman to be Moore's superior superhero work. Watchmen is something that I can appreciate on an intellectual level, but I don't really enjoy reading that much.

EDIT: And if we're recommending Moore works, I'd go with From Hell and Pictopia. From Hell is about as meticulously crafted as Watchmen, but remains involving despite devoting an entire chapter to the architecture of London. Pictopia is a short story that appeared in Anything Goes #2, a comic Fantagraphics put out to raise money back when Michael Fleischer sued them. It's written as a reaction to all the grim and gritty stuff that was going on in comics during the eighties, and while it's a subject that's probably been covered too many times, Moore handles it exceptionally well. And it's still pretty appropriate, if the big events over at Marvel and DC recently are any indication.

Excitemike
06-10-2007, 07:51 PM
It appears in the DC Comics trade paperback with all of Moore's best work, can't remember the title right now.

DC Universe: The stories of Alan Moore. Moore's superhero work is a real mixed bag. The bad stuff is either a tedious rehash of themes he nailed the first time, or it's too smart for it's own good. The good stuff hits a sweet spot like no other writer working in comics (except maybe Grant Morrison). This book is a fair representation of this ratio, collecting all the one-shot stories (mostly back-ups, but at least two have been sold as stand alone graphic novels in the past) Moore authored at DC during the eighties. For twenty dollars the price is a little steep but it contains three of the best superhero stories ever written: "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?", "For the Man Who Has Everything" and "The Killing Joke." There is also a lot of filler, some of it good or at least interesting. Definitely worth checking out if you've ever loved the capes and long underwear set.

The animated adaptation of "For the Man Who Has Everything" was very close to the original, but the original has one thing that trumps it: It was drawn by Dave Gibbons.

Stephen
06-10-2007, 08:19 PM
Wasn't David Bowie working on a rock opera version of Watchmen? That would have been so sweet.

Jakanden
06-10-2007, 09:23 PM
EDIT: And if we're recommending Moore works, I'd go with From Hell and Pictopia. From Hell is about as meticulously crafted as Watchmen, but remains involving despite devoting an entire chapter to the architecture of London. Pictopia is a short story that appeared in Anything Goes #2, a comic Fantagraphics put out to raise money back when Michael Fleischer sued them. It's written as a reaction to all the grim and gritty stuff that was going on in comics during the eighties, and while it's a subject that's probably been covered too many times, Moore handles it exceptionally well. And it's still pretty appropriate, if the big events over at Marvel and DC recently are any indication.

From Hell is awesome but also pretty damn long. Well worth reading at least once though.

Armored Robo Zaza Gabor
06-10-2007, 10:28 PM
Personally, because of the length of the story, I think Watchmen would work better as a miniseries. I believe is what Terry Gilliam wanted to do. And he is right.

Personally I don't understand Moore's hate for the comic book movie treatment. Frank Miller has demonstrated that if done right and with cooperation from the writer, it might work. But whatever.

Plus, comic books as we know them today are not more ancient than movies. So, if it's one of his crazy esoterical ideas making him hate movies, well, too bad for him.

I think the first The Crow movie is a fine example of a good comic book turned into a good movie.

Jakanden
06-11-2007, 05:53 AM
I think the first The Crow movie is a fine example of a good comic book turned into a good movie.

Maybe, but the movie was extremely different from the comic. I personally wouldn't want Watchmen be changed that much for an adaptation.

Alex
06-23-2007, 12:39 AM
The Incredibles does a pretty decent job of channeling Watchmen.

It's also probably the best Fantastic Four movie there will ever be.

Sanagi
06-23-2007, 02:40 AM
The Incredibles does a pretty decent job of channeling Watchmen.

It's also probably the best Fantastic Four movie there will ever be.
Yeah, I had that thought while watching Incredibles for the first time - "There's no way the Fantastic Four movie will be as good an adaptation of the Fantastic Four as this."

Calorie Mate
06-25-2007, 12:18 PM
I liked Watchmen. I think it's good for a medium to have a work that looks at itself like that...and even ignoring that, I liked most of the characters.