PDA

View Full Version : Selection for Societal Sanity #1: Metal Gear Solid 3: Chyornaya Peschara thru The End


Parish
08-12-2007, 07:51 PM
It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a GRU.

Yes, I moved the beginning point for this section's discussion to after the Ocelot battle just so I could make that joke. Never mind me, though. Those who have made it a little further into the game, you may discussion these portions of the game here. This encompasses quite a bit of turf, so this should be downright juicy.

This is actually where I am, currently. I'm trying to sneak past a couple of scientists in the Granin Lab without them freaking out -- without much success, I might add. I may be forced to cap some fools, I'm afraid.

Lakupo
08-12-2007, 09:39 PM
It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a GRU.

I approve of any and all means taken to make this joke!

I hope you picked up some poisonous foodstuffs (spoiled food counts too) on the way to the lab, they'll be handy when you make your way out. (you can still grab them later, it's just easier when you plan ahead)

There was always this one spot where I'd have trouble with the scientists, I think it's the rooms upstairs... just keep moving is all I can say. It's sometimes easier to leave the room and let them forget their suspicions.

Calorie Mate
08-13-2007, 12:34 AM
Why don't you just use the Scientist camo? (Er, remember that while scientsits are accepting of headbands and mullets, they don't generally wear face paint.)

Parish
08-13-2007, 12:49 AM
Even if you're wearing scientist camo and no face paint, they still freak out if you get too close to them. I finally got sick of that part and CQC'd everyone into submission... so I got an alert, but no kills.

Now I'm at The Fear and I am not fearful, just annoyed. I'm taking down bosses non-lethally, but he can recuperate stamina. Bastard.

Kishi
08-13-2007, 01:04 AM
The good news is that area is swarming with poisonous food material, from the Technicolor frogs to the mysterious mushrooms. Procure some, toss it out, and The Fear will almost always go for it when he descends to stuff his face. He'll then blow chunks, losing a large portion of his stamina and giving you an opportunity to drain even more with either tranquilizer rounds or a diving roll.

Savathun
08-13-2007, 01:07 AM
And if you don't mind the time commitment, you can steal anything remotely edible before he can get it.

Parish
08-13-2007, 01:10 AM
Yeah, I wondered about trying to kill everything edible, but it seemed like a real pain in the butt. The poison food isn't a bad idea, though... apparently Russia is lousy with poison dart frogs. My main concern is offing him before my thermal goggles' batteries run down (I only have three).

Kishi
08-13-2007, 01:31 AM
His stealth camouflage actually deactivates once he gets to the "grargh hungry" stage of the battle, so you don't need the thermals after that point.

By the way, this fight is how most people find out about the mechanic where leaving an arrow embedded in Snake's body for too long will lead to the wound healing over it, leaving it stuck there for the rest of the game. Sadomasochists may be interested in aiming for a full-on Pincussion Snake.

Adrenaline
08-13-2007, 05:16 AM
By the way, this fight is how most people find out about the mechanic where leaving an arrow embedded in Snake's body for too long will lead to the wound healing over it, leaving it stuck there for the rest of the game. Sadomasochists may be interested in aiming for a full-on Pincussion Snake.

I never noticed that, I always got rid of those quickly. Absurd amount of depth to this game.

Farm Animal
08-13-2007, 06:37 AM
A good trick with The Fear is to throw rotten food somewhere and he'll eat it and become sick.

If you don't have any rotten food set your console's clock forward about a week and all your food will become rotten.

cortbassist89
08-13-2007, 07:41 AM
I found that food trick out simply because I forgot to play for a week. My disappointment over my rotten food faded when I realized it was just what I needed.

Speaking of which, what boss camo did you guys actually use the most? I think the only one I used was the Fear's.

Stephen
08-13-2007, 08:43 AM
One of the coolest things about MGS3 is learning how to pronounce all the Russian location names.

alexb
08-13-2007, 12:09 PM
Assuming they're using proper pronunciation.

Something I've always wondered about, though, is how one would take out The End non-lethally. I mean, he has the tranq sniper rifle, not you.

Kishi
08-13-2007, 12:17 PM
The battle with The End doesn't have to be a sniper duel. You can just as easily track him down and sneak up from behind him for a close-range engagement, meaning your Mk. 22 is fully viable.

jovewolf
08-13-2007, 12:20 PM
True, and besides you have to hold him up to get his camo, not just non-lethally take him down.

Adrenaline
08-13-2007, 12:41 PM
You do have to take him down without killing him to get his rifle though, right?

Am I the only one who liked fighting Sniper Wolf more than The End? That was way more intense and snipery than sneaking around, looking for an old guy.

TheSL
08-13-2007, 12:57 PM
Am I the only one who liked fighting Sniper Wolf more than The End? That was way more intense and snipery than sneaking around, looking for an old guy.

If you did it right, then yeah. With both games I kind of got fed up with the fights:

Sniper Wolf: Used the Nikita missiles to seek her out and blow her up.

The End: First time through, snuck up on him and blasted him with the shotgun. Subsequent times I either blew him up after the cutscene at the docks(since there's exploding barrels present) or just simply didn't play the game for a week after reaching the fight and letting the bastard die of old age.

Kishi
08-13-2007, 01:03 PM
Am I the only one who liked fighting Sniper Wolf more than The End? That was way more intense and snipery than sneaking around, looking for an old guy.

The thing is, Sniper Wolf only provided the intense aspect of sniping, whereas with The End, you get the full experience--a little stick to go with your carrot. You search, wait, search, and wait some more; you consider whether, while you're staring down your scope, he's getting the drop on you; you absorb all the sights and sounds around you until you've become part of the scene itself; and when your target finally appears in your sights, then the shooting happens.

It's not an urgent, balls-to-the-wall, gah shit where's the diazepam boss battle, but for sacrificing that approach, it's worlds more immersive.

alexb
08-13-2007, 01:23 PM
Everybody knows you can just wait for The End to die of old age, too, right?

Savathun
08-13-2007, 01:41 PM
I love the fight with The End. Trying to figure out where he is and track him, all the while wondering if he'll find me first. It's pretty much my favorite part.

Of course, you can just snipe him earlier in the wheelchair and skip the fight completely if you hate fun.

alexb
08-13-2007, 02:51 PM
I dunno, capping vegetative old men is reasonably entertaining in its own right. I like the killer wheelchair, myself.

Alixsar
08-13-2007, 03:01 PM
Two things I have to say about The End fight:

- That that guy can sneak up on you pretty quick, so watch out.

- Don't hold him up for his camo near a ledge in the second area. If you do and it falls down, even if you jump down immediately, it will not be there. This happened to me twice and really pissed me off.

Savathun
08-13-2007, 03:08 PM
I dunno, capping vegetative old men is reasonably entertaining in its own right. I like the killer wheelchair, myself.

It IS kinda funny how it explodes, but I just get a huge kick out of the fight itself, so I usually don't do it.

The first time it happened, I was completely stunned. I didn't even think you could DO that.

Tomm Guycot
08-13-2007, 05:51 PM
It's too late to help, but as the scientist you're supposed to cig-gas those scientists.

Savathun
08-13-2007, 06:01 PM
You know, I just started listening to The Scientist by Cold Play as I clicked this thread.

Then I saw Tomm's post and thought about how Phantom Tomm would totally dissaprove of this whole business. I'll make you proud some day! ...Um, maybe.

And somehow, I got through Rassvet and to Sokolov without being seen today. That's never happened before. The guy right by the door almost always catches me.

Adrenaline
08-13-2007, 06:11 PM
The thing is, Sniper Wolf only provided the intense aspect of sniping, whereas with The End, you get the full experience--a little stick to go with your carrot. You search, wait, search, and wait some more; you consider whether, while you're staring down your scope, he's getting the drop on you; you absorb all the sights and sounds around you until you've become part of the scene itself; and when your target finally appears in your sights, then the shooting happens.

It's not an urgent, balls-to-the-wall, gah shit where's the diazepam boss battle, but for sacrificing that approach, it's worlds more immersive.

Well, don't get me wrong, The End is an awesome fight and a great encapsulation of the game's unending allowance for stretching its limits. But the first time I fought Sniper Wolf was the most intense game experience in my life this side of most of Resident Evil 4.

cortbassist89
08-13-2007, 07:33 PM
I myself have an interesting story about my first fight with the End!

I saw this goat while looking for him, I was in a sadistic mood, and thought, Ima stab dis goat, so I tried, and he kicked me. I tried again. He kicked me. So I blew him away with the shotgun. Taught him a lesson.

About a half hour later I was searching for the End, this time with my thermal goggles on. Suddenly, while scanning the area, I saw that goat again. In nearly the same spot. Damn thing respawned on me. So I snuck up behind it with my shotgun, and blew it to death.

Imagine my shock when The End's Death cutscene started playing, and I realized that I can't tell an old man from a goat.

Savathun
08-13-2007, 08:52 PM
That would make a pretty good hunting story, too.

Oh, also, obligatory Dick Cheney reference.

Parish
08-13-2007, 09:29 PM
and blew it to death.
uhhhhhhhhh

Alex Scott
08-13-2007, 10:43 PM
The way I understand the scientists, they only freak out if they see your face. If they come up to you for a closer look, you can turn away from them and wait for them to back off.

Of course, then you have those rooms where you're surrounded by scientists. You turn away from one scientist only to end up face-to-face with another one. Urgh.

Anyway, I'm at the end of the river now. May try to snipe The End early, but haven't decided.

Eusis
08-13-2007, 10:56 PM
There IS that cigar to put them to sleep, so you could just be an ass and smoke into their face.

Parish
08-14-2007, 11:46 AM
You know, I picked up the cigar but didn't realize what it was. So stupid. I managed to body-slam everyone into submission anyway, so it all worked out -- this wasn't an alert-free playthrough anyway, so the important thing is that I escaped without using lethal force.

I beat The Fear on my first try -- and amusingly, I didn't even have to use any poison tricks, because he did it to himself. His first stamina-up act was to grab a fruit in a tree, which was annoying, but then he made the mistake of tossing a grenade at me while I was hiding behind a tree. The grenade bounced and landed in the center of the battlefield, where it exploded and killed a bunch of poison dart frogs. So basically all I had to do was whittle down his stamina a little and wait for him to eat a couple of poison frogs.

Spider camo get!

I was wondering why my health bar didn't increase after defeating bosses until I realized that you only gain max health after successfully curing your injuries... and since I don't get into many battles, my health is barely above where it was at the beginning of the game. Would it be cheap of me to go back to the warehouse and drop from the top floor repeatedly to break my legs and boost my hit points? Is it a flaw in the game that I'm even considering this?

TheSL
08-14-2007, 11:50 AM
Unless you're trying to go for a higher end-game ranking, I'd say its worth a shot. I never considered pulling a FFII to increase my HP in MGS3, though.

Adrenaline
08-14-2007, 12:11 PM
Is it a flaw in the game that I'm even considering this?

Little bit.

Parish
08-14-2007, 12:17 PM
Little bit.
I'm willing to forgive it. The attention to needless details that actually benefit gameplay is staggering, so a few quirks are OK. I do wish the controls were a little... less crappy, I guess is the phrase I'm looking for.

Adrenaline
08-14-2007, 12:22 PM
It's definitely a give-and-take. The amount of freedom it gives is amazing, but the implementation of a lot of it could definitely have been better.

Savathun
08-14-2007, 12:50 PM
Huh. I didn't know that about the max health. Wonder if it counts during that part at the beginning where Snake falls into the river and you're given the healing tutorial. I never paid any attention.

Parish
08-14-2007, 01:17 PM
Yes, I looked back at an older save and it does. So does the arrow that The Fear pegs you with.

MCBanjoMike
08-14-2007, 01:23 PM
Man, I had no idea that all these crazy things were going on when I played through this game. All this talk has me wanting to play the game again, but I just started Okami and I really don't want to get sidetracked. Guess I shouldn't have rushed so much on my first playthrough...

cortbassist89
08-14-2007, 04:01 PM
Wait, so healing gives you greater max health?

It's almost like Kojima wants us to get into intense fire fights.

So now that's totally my excuse.

cortbassist89
08-14-2007, 04:34 PM
and shot that goat with the M37 until it cast aside its mortal coil.

Fix'd! :D

Sorry Parish.

Parish
08-15-2007, 10:56 PM
Well, I've squeezed all the fun I can manage out of the BioShock demo. Time to tackle The End. Wish me luck. Hopefully I'll be done within the hour, but I'm not counting on it.

Parish
08-16-2007, 01:27 AM
Ayup -- final time from pre-battle save to post-death-cutscene save: one hour, fifty-six minutes.

I can see why people call this such a great battle, though. By every right, it should be a tedious, infuriating burden -- yet instead it's intense and compelling. The secret of its success, I think, is that it defies the traditional notion of video game conflict yet remains true to the subject matter without being unrelentingly realistic. (I'm pretty sure real sniper duels don't give you a map with your foe's preferred perches circled on them.) The pace is slow, but there's a definite sense of progression as you start out at a terrible disadvantage and slowly gain a sense of the lay of the land and begin to draw a bead on The End's behavior and tactics.

It's also an experience that makes deft use of MGS3's unique mechanics. Stealth and camoflauge are genuinely essential in this experience, and stamina and curing play an intrinsic role as well. It puts practically every feature in the game to use -- you can use the sound amplifier or thermal goggles to track down The End. When he scampers to a new area, you can follow his footprints. You can sneak up behind him. Even the silly elements endemic to video games play a role, as I spotted him more than once by noticing the Z's rising above his head -- something that wouldn't happen in real life, but makes perfect sense in a Metal Gear game.

It's so rare to see the disparate elements of a game come together like this, and in so satisfying a way. Consider me wholly impressed.

Savathun
08-16-2007, 01:34 AM
I love the way your eyes play tricks on you in that section. Every weird little bump and shadow might be him, and you just know he's out there somewhere. Then the great rush you get when you finally spot him and wonder if he's caught you yet. I don't know how many times I'll find his location just as he's found mine, and of course, he's the faster and truer shot.

Did you kill his bird?

alexb
08-16-2007, 06:15 AM
I've always thought that killing the parrot should give you a time paradox, since Emma's bird in MGS2 is that bird's granddaughter. The best part is that you can eat it once you've killed it. And that you'll have to deal with its vengeful ghost later in the game.

Adrenaline
08-16-2007, 08:05 AM
I've always thought that killing the parrot should give you a time paradox, since Emma's bird in MGS2 is that bird's granddaughter.


Eh what?

cortbassist89
08-16-2007, 08:08 AM
Yep. The parrots are related.

Kojima said it once in an interview. I think it was in EGM.

Parish
08-16-2007, 09:14 AM
How very George Lucas of him.

Actually, I never once saw the parrot during this battle. It was a little disappointing.

alexb
08-16-2007, 09:27 AM
Really? It likes to fly around and give away your position, normally.

Zef
08-16-2007, 09:43 AM
The best part is that you can eat [the parrot] once you've killed it. And that you'll have to deal with its vengeful ghost later in the game.
OK, that? That has just given me reason and purpose not to give up on the game. I MUST see that phantom bird.

Adrenaline
08-16-2007, 10:09 AM
Yep. The parrots are related.

Kojima said it once in an interview. I think it was in EGM.

In that case, he could still have fathered Emma's mother/father before getting killed by Big Boss.

Parish
08-16-2007, 11:13 AM
In that case, he could still have fathered Emma's mother/father before getting killed by Big Boss.
Parrots are pretty long-lived, yes?

alexb
08-16-2007, 11:20 AM
Longer lived than their owners in the MGS series, at least.

Zef
08-16-2007, 11:32 AM
In that case, he could still have fathered Emma's mother/father before getting killed by Big Boss.
I... assume that it was the father. Because if a parrot fathered Emma's mother, it brings up even further questions about Otacon that we were never meant to ask.

j/k

Tomm Guycot
08-16-2007, 12:30 PM
Parrots live hella long, as the kid's say. Churchill's died just a few years ago.

Adrenaline
08-16-2007, 12:57 PM
I... assume that it was the father. Because if a parrot fathered Emma's mother, it brings up even further questions about Otacon that we were never meant to ask.

j/k

I forgot a word! Woho!

cortbassist89
08-16-2007, 01:50 PM
Speaking of Otacon, I can't wait for more strange revelations about him and his family during MGS4!

Kojima did quite a bit of what you could call retconning with MGS3, now that I think about it. Spoilers ahead!

He made the Patriots into people and not ancient-dead-computer-spirits-or-whatever, he made Ocelot somewhat psychic, so now that arm-possession thing isn't supposed to be so strange, and explained how Otacon's family got into the arms business, kinda.

Anyone wonder if Kojima really planned all this stuff out, or if he made it up as he got to it?

Parish
08-16-2007, 02:58 PM
Anyone wonder if Kojima really planned all this stuff out, or if he made it up as he got to it?
The latter, no doubt. I'm pretty sure the reason he says every MGS is his last is because he keeps realizing "Oh my god, how will I get out of this corner I've painted myself into?"

Jakanden
08-16-2007, 03:02 PM
The latter, no doubt. I'm pretty sure the reason he says every MGS is his last is because he keeps realizing "Oh my god, how will I get out of this corner I've painted myself into?"

Even if that is true, I still have a fanboy love for the series.

Rosencrantz
08-16-2007, 03:56 PM
The latter, no doubt. I'm pretty sure the reason he says every MGS is his last is because he keeps realizing "Oh my god, how will I get out of this corner I've painted myself into?"

I am FAR from a professional writer (or any kind of writer, really), but to me it's always a great thrill when you think you've written yourself into a corner but then come up with a really cool way to explain it. If the new explanation helps flesh out other plot points or details, then that's even better.

cortbassist89
08-16-2007, 05:52 PM
I'm trying really hard not to be spoilerish without warning, so consider yourself warned if you've yet to play MGS2, but it's like Kojima was like, shit I killed Liquid in MGS, but he's so cool, gotta bring him back... how? WITH AN ARM!

And then later, Kojima's all: no, totally, Ocelot's dad was totally psychic, this shit makes sense now.

bobservo
08-17-2007, 11:05 AM
Something new I learned: the brown facepaint gives you unlimited O2 while you're underwater. I don't know if Sigint has a crazy explanation for this, though.

Speaking of Sigint, I happened to call him while wearing the black facepaint: "I see you're wearing black facepaint!" I was expecting it to get awkward, but thankfully it didn't. And Snake didn't even come close to saying "Mammy!"

I originally planned on replaying this by using the codes as little as possible, but I got to Ocelot before I realized how empty this method makes the game feel. I love hearing different stuff about the areas I'm in, and what weapons and items I have equipped. It's also neat to hear little tidbits of information that make a whole lot more sense later in the game.

So, is this fun club for MGS3 going on for more than a week (PLEASE oh PLEASE)?

Adrenaline
08-17-2007, 11:14 AM
So, is this fun club for MGS3 going on for more than a week (PLEASE oh PLEASE)?

I think it's going until Wednesday after Bioshock comes out.

Kishi
08-17-2007, 11:23 AM
Something new I learned: the brown facepaint gives you unlimited O2 while you're underwater. I don't know if Sigint has a crazy explanation for this, though.

Unfortunately, Sigint doesn't have comments for any uniforms or paints originally featured in the game via exterior sources. (Until Subsistence, the only legit way to acquire the Brown face paint was to use the "Snake Eater" single CD, for example.) This also includes the winners from the player-submitted camouflage design contest that made it into the game as-is: Animals, Fly, and Banana.

Parish
08-17-2007, 11:57 AM
I think it's going until Wednesday after Bioshock comes out.
Actually, there'll be a little overlap... I'll keep the MGS3 topics open through the end of next week so people can wrap up the game while others move into BioShock.

Adrenaline
08-17-2007, 12:07 PM
Actually, there'll be a little overlap... I'll keep the MGS3 topics open through the end of next week so people can wrap up the game while others move into BioShock.

I guess BioShock will last through the following week before moving on to the next game?

VsRobot
08-17-2007, 12:26 PM
As much as I'm bitching about how hard the controls are for me, I still grabbed MGS 2 when I saw it used for 14.99 yesterday. So, I guess I'm part of the cult. Can someone send me a membership kit?

bobservo
08-17-2007, 12:48 PM
Unfortunately, Sigint doesn't have comments for any uniforms or paints originally featured in the game via exterior sources. (Until Subsistence, the only legit way to acquire the Brown face paint was to use the "Snake Eater" single CD, for example.) This also includes the winners from the player-submitted camouflage design contest that made it into the game as-is: Animals, Fly, and Banana.

Ah, I didn't know it was a "bonus" facepaint - I found out about its abilities by looking at the description in the Camo screen.

Can you still download the camos that Konami put online?

Kishi
08-17-2007, 12:57 PM
Ah, I didn't know it was a "bonus" facepaint - I found out about its abilities by looking at the description in the Camo screen.

Can you still download the camos that Konami put online?

I don't know if you can still get them online, but if you have Subsistence, you're covered. From the main menu after the title screen, go to "Special," then Camouflage Download.

Except for a couple Japan-only patterns you won't be missing anyway, the uniforms are all right there on the game disc. The only caveat is that you still need to transport them to a memory card in order to use them. Yeah, I don't know. It's weird like that.

Eusis
08-18-2007, 02:38 AM
Got to Ponizovje West, and experimented with the sniper rifle to see if I could off The End early. I managed it... Then got baffled by what the hell was hitting me. Only after 2 more tries did I notice it was one of the wheels of his chair flying off and hitting me.

Alex Scott
08-18-2007, 07:37 AM
So that was it. I sniped him last night, and I was wondering what hit me. Knocked me right back into the previous area.

bobservo
08-18-2007, 09:07 AM
So how much does the new camera help with fighting The End? I want to hold him up, too, if anyone has any hints for this. I'm guessing the Spider camo would be a good start?

Kishi
08-18-2007, 11:25 AM
The best advice is probably just to learn his sniping positions. When he shoots you, you can go into the Map screen and view his current location, so that's one way to do it. In more general terms, though, he tends to prefer high ground, targeting low ground. My favored tactic is to hang around Sokrovenno North, which is high all around, and then also use it to gain access to the more elevated areas of Sokrovenno South and East. Even if you still can't find him, you can at least perform a "clearing" and work your way down to the lower levels.

cortbassist89
08-18-2007, 05:44 PM
Question: is it a bit stereotypical that the first line Sigint has is: Yo!

Discuss.

Kishi
08-18-2007, 10:07 PM
At least this game isn't like MGS1 and MGS2, where all the brothers are doomed to die in classic Hollywood fashion.

switchbeat
08-19-2007, 05:29 PM
I fought Ocelot and progressed through The End last night. I initially wasn't looking forward to a tiresome sniping battle, but I found The End to be the best battle yet. After taking a few shots from him on the ridge in the first area, I moved up to the second area and decided to use the stream as cover. Just before I got to the water, rain started coming down. I put on my rain suit and used the croc mask for the hell of it. I pretty much spent the rest of the battle moving up and down the stream. I managed to tranquilize The End since he (seemingly due to the loud water rushing down) couldn't hear me get close to him.

Awesome.

bobservo
08-20-2007, 04:03 PM
Sorry, wrong thread!

Alastor
08-20-2007, 11:47 PM
I found out the hard way that The End can spot you if your scope reflects the sun's glare at him. Scared the hell out of me, that did.

Seriously, this is easily my favorite part of the game, and of my favorite moments in any game for that matter. So many nuances that affect the battle, it's just staggering.

Savathun
08-20-2007, 11:49 PM
I found out the hard way that The End can spot you if your scope reflects the sun's glare at him. Scared the hell out of me, that did.

!!

I did not know this.

Mr. Sensible
08-21-2007, 02:30 AM
I found out the hard way that The End can spot you if your scope reflects the sun's glare at him.

Fortunately, that particular feature works both ways. I've gotten pretty good at picking out The End's shiny rifle through the foliage. Using thermal for that battle almost feels like cheating to me, now.

switchbeat
08-22-2007, 02:08 PM
Fortunately, that particular feature works both ways. I've gotten pretty good at picking out The End's shiny rifle through the foliage. Using thermal for that battle almost feels like cheating to me, now.

I was about to say...

That was the way I found him for my first two shots. After my second shot he was close enough that I could see where he was running for his next location.

Rosencrantz
08-22-2007, 04:23 PM
I feel like the only person who has NEVER fought The End in an actual sniper duel. I've always hunted him down and shot him from behind. Come to think of it, I never fought Sniper Wolf (the second time) with the sniper rifle either - when that battle started, the first thing to pop into my head was the Nikita and it worked so well that I never bothered with anything else.

Mr. Sensible
08-23-2007, 02:07 AM
Actually, since I always go for the stamina kill I typically just try to spot him so I can sneak in and hold him up for the Moss camo. He runs away, I follow as best I can, he settles back down somewhere out of my sight, rinse, repeat.

Once I get my no alerts/no kills playthrough done, you can bet I'll be sniping his wrinkly ass from a distance.