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dtsund
10-21-2010, 11:31 PM
Notice

Due to unusual circumstances (that is, Nich and a few others being unable to access Talking Time presently), tonight's vote count may be delayed.

kaisel
10-22-2010, 12:14 AM
Notice

Due to unusual circumstances (that is, Nich and a few others being unable to access Talking Time presently), tonight's vote count may be delayed.

Oh, it's good to know that it wasn't just me who was having trouble accessing Talking Time earlier.

Javex
10-22-2010, 06:27 AM
D...uh, dwolfe is my kind of people!

dtsund
10-22-2010, 12:12 PM
Blast it all, I thought I was being clever with coining the term 'Morphia', but now I see Destil was already using it in the other thread.

JohnB
10-22-2010, 01:50 PM
Morphia is fantastic. It should be adopted into the lexicon immediately.

JohnB
10-22-2010, 02:11 PM
I fucking love the Rorschach stuff, dwolfe. "Better anyone else dies than me." Ha! A+++++ would read again

botticus
10-22-2010, 02:15 PM
So I made a mention of someone's thread-viewing activity - for future reference, is that considered to be fair game for Mafia purposes, or is that getting outside the scope of what we should be using as information?

JohnB
10-22-2010, 02:18 PM
I think unless actively specified in the game rules everything is fair game (PMs included unless specifically forbidden), so shine on you crazy diamond.

Nodal
10-22-2010, 02:31 PM
So I made a mention of someone's thread-viewing activity - for future reference, is that considered to be fair game for Mafia purposes, or is that getting outside the scope of what we should be using as information?

That is the best metagaming ever. You are my hero.

SDMX
10-22-2010, 02:31 PM
I've become just as envious of dwolfe's flavor texted game as he is of mine.

I salute you, you magnificent bastard. Carry the torch.

shivam
10-22-2010, 02:46 PM
So I made a mention of someone's thread-viewing activity - for future reference, is that considered to be fair game for Mafia purposes, or is that getting outside the scope of what we should be using as information?

i thought we decided that this was just bad form, back in game 1/2?

Nodal
10-22-2010, 02:54 PM
i thought we decided that this was just bad form, back in game 1/2?

Metagaming is awesome and you are wrong.

McClain
10-22-2010, 02:57 PM
If you don't like it, open multiple windows. Or just go invisible. Problem solved.

Rai
10-22-2010, 02:59 PM
I think PMs should be considered out of bounds, but I'm not against checking to see who's read what and when. It's not like that's failsafe either, and it's not explicitly against the rules. God knows I check it, even if I don't always say so.

botticus
10-22-2010, 03:16 PM
i thought we decided that this was just bad form, back in game 1/2?
Well I certainly wasn't party to that decision, but either way I don't see myself or anyone making excessive use of it. Ain't easy!

SDMX
10-22-2010, 03:39 PM
If you don't like it, open multiple windows. Or just go invisible. Problem solved.

Being invisible doesn't keep you off the online.php page. I've been invisible since the start of TTv2 and I routinely show up there.

Unless you only show up on that page to yourself, which I doubt, but go ahead and check.

shivam
10-22-2010, 03:50 PM
sure. i have no issues either way.

Merus
10-22-2010, 10:29 PM
I think it's bad form. Not that my opinion matters, but maybe people could try using evidence and strategy to catch bad guys? I mean, technically there's nothing in the rules that stops you from hacking into people's Wave accounts and seeing if they've been to the speakeasy.

Nodal
10-22-2010, 10:30 PM
I think it's bad form. Not that my opinion matters, but maybe people could try using evidence and strategy to catch bad guys? I mean, technically there's nothing in the rules that stops you from hacking into people's Wave accounts and seeing if they've been to the speakeasy.

Gentlemen we have a new mission.

Destil
10-22-2010, 10:45 PM
I had forgotten this peculiar rush of "FINALLY someone's seeing sense ohshit he's an outlaw setting me up for a fall!!!" Oh, Mafia.

Destil
10-22-2010, 11:19 PM
Why are you doing this to your GM people? You should all switch back to spineshark, to make his life easy.

You too, spine!

shivam
10-22-2010, 11:24 PM
i was thinking of switching to you, actually =)

Nodal
10-22-2010, 11:28 PM
I vote to lynch Wheels.

Adam
10-22-2010, 11:30 PM
Oh, you guys... :)

VorpalEdge
10-22-2010, 11:31 PM
so fucking hype

shivam
10-22-2010, 11:36 PM
wow. hell of a day 1 =)

Mr. J
10-22-2010, 11:37 PM
Never a boring day on M7-Libra!

McClain
10-22-2010, 11:38 PM
Meh, needs more Drunk.

Meditative_Zebra
10-22-2010, 11:39 PM
http://www.maragos.org/images/sonatine.jpg

Nich, you are awesome and I'm sorry I made you shoot yourself. :-(

McClain
10-22-2010, 11:43 PM
Yeah, I was trying to keep detailed vote notes until I realized that Nich's tallies include links AND changes, so screw that noise. You guys change too damn much. (You're awesome, GM! :) )

Destil
10-22-2010, 11:45 PM
Ever played Facing Worlds in ut?

I head-shot McClain with my a Sniper Rifle.

It had to be done.
What do you mean I don't have a sniper rifle? Who outfits these outfits?

McClain
10-22-2010, 11:51 PM
Ever played Facing Worlds in ut?

No, why do you ask-


I head-shot McClain with my a Sniper Rifle.

HEY!

It had to be done.

YOU had to be done.

Wheels
10-22-2010, 11:55 PM
YOU had to be done.

Your Mother had to be done!

Wait, why am I adding to this?

McClain
10-22-2010, 11:57 PM
Your Mother had to be done!

Wait, why am I adding to this?

Quiet, dead man.

Meditative_Zebra
10-23-2010, 12:27 AM
End of Day 1 flavor text.

That was awesome.

And not just because I got my name in the proceedings.

As a reminder, I would appreciate it if this common thread remained free of game-specific chatter during the night phase. Go home and think about what you've done.

Roger wilco, boss.

shivam
10-23-2010, 12:35 AM
but...but...peanut gallery!

SDMX
10-23-2010, 01:17 AM
Hopelessly addicted to both games now.

Nich, Shivam: I hope you're proud of what you've done.

Adam
10-23-2010, 02:13 AM
dwoooooooooooolfe!

Brickroad
10-23-2010, 02:22 AM
Hahaha, holy shit Libra. It was like a dozen little Brickroads running around with their dicks flopped out.

I'm all proud an' shit.

Meditative_Zebra
10-23-2010, 02:55 AM
That is a truly terrifying image.

Javex
10-23-2010, 07:15 AM
I've got something new for the "Say a thing and a guy will draw it" thread now, Brick.

As a reminder, I would appreciate it if this common thread remained free of game-specific chatter during the night phase. Go home and think about what you've done.

TRY AND STOP ME.

Nodal
10-23-2010, 09:37 AM
Hahaha, holy shit Libra. It was like a dozen little Brickroads running around with their dicks flopped out.

I'm all proud an' shit.

Tomorrow: Infinite Cheeseburgers.

Tanto
10-23-2010, 10:05 AM
Someone should be taking care of Gemini at some point. Until then:

Libra Day 1
~Posts #6-207~

Brickroad makes the first substantial post of the game with his usual appeal to spare the new players the first kill. This time, that list consists of Luana, Mazokunomiko, and Meditative_Zebra. Brickroad goes on to say that normally he'd accuse the worst player, but that he's pretty sure that among this group that's him, so he uses random.org to select widdershins instead. Dwolfe suggests waiting until all players have had a chance to make themselves known before throwing down any accusations, and Mazokunomiko concurs.

VorpalEdge does some analysis and decides that the number of Mafia is likely 4 (post-conversion), because any more and the Citizens' margin for error is too slim, and any fewer and it wouldn't be a particularly interesting game for the Mafia. Under this logic, the Citizens lose by Day 4 if they don't find a Mafioso in that time.

Spineshark accuses Brickroad, on the logic that Brickroad tends to play pretty punch-drunk when he's Mafia, and that it's pretty easy to steamroll an innocent lynch on the first Day without suffering much long-term backlash. Brickroad responds that if he is a sucky player and Mafia, isn't it a good idea to leave him alive? Destil pats Brickroad on the back and says that he isn't as bad a player as he claims -- he sucks at finding Mafia, sure, but his strategic sense is usually reliable.

There's a little discussion about whether asking for rules clarifications is indicative of anything in terms of alignment.

Destil accuses spineshark, making the case that the latter is sizing up sentiment against Brickroad for a possible conversion. This sounds good enough to Kayma, who jumps on the bandwagon. Spineshark claims that he's playing ballsier this time because he doesn't have a power role that he wants to conceal, so he wants to be in the center of the discussion this time. Brickroad votes for spineshark as well.

VorpalEdge accuses Mr. J, on the grounds that the latter is trying to set himself up as a Super Mafia Player based on not much, and is trying to to "disqualify" whole posts on spurious grounds. Mr. J argues that he's trying to get people to talk, which can only provide information for the Citizens. Nevertheless, Luana likes the sound of VorpalEdge's argument, and accuses Mr. J. Spineshark and Garrison follow along as well. Spineshark points out that three people are voting for him based on no stronger reasoning than that someone else did, while people are actually making arguments against Mr. J.

With spineshark's neck on the block, Nodal makes a surprising switch to Mr. J. Spineshark switches to Mr. J as well, as does shivam, suddenly putting Mr. J into the lead. Shivam says that he's convinced Destil is dirty, but it would be too difficult to get a lynch going at this stage in the Day. Only some last minute rules discussion separates this from Mr. J's trip to the gallows, where he is revealed to be innocent.

Winter
10-23-2010, 10:25 AM
As a reminder, I would appreciate it if this common thread remained free of game-specific chatter during the night phase. Go home and think about what you've done.

That including the recaps, too?

Anyways, as you might have guessed by now, I'm helping out and doing the deeds that feed your recapping needs. I'll be covering how well our boys and girls are doing over on the Gemini colony.

Gemini, Day 1
Posts 1-133


The news of the infestation on colony M7-Gemini broke with the dawn, as much as dawn exists outside the atmosphere. The colonists reacted to the news as anyone would be expected to, by lamenting their lot in life, cursing whatever gods they held for abandoning them in the endless void of space, trapped with death itself. Except for SDMX. He blames everyone else. Several of the colonists started crying. Like little babies. Seriously, you should have seen that conference area. It was like the girl's bathroom at prom night.

SDMX, deciding that he is without sin, casts the first stone. His posts are entirely in character. Unfortunately, instead of being a bald space marine that kills all the aliens and saves the colonists, this character is instead Fred Phelps. In space. He gets a bit of early pressure for this, and votes from McClain and dtsund.

There's a bit of discussion early on establishing the lack of merit in allowing the DM to kill off anyone. Following this is a bit of talk regarding whether SDMX's first vote means he is/isn't mafia, there's another random accusation, and SDMX recinds his early vote.

The colonists continue by discussing some overall strategy, the expected use of conversion, the effect of talkativeness, etc. A couple people post warnings against doing too much theory-crafting, especially past the first day. I'm currently taking bets on how well the colonists will hold to that. The idea of a watch list is proposed, and gains some weight. JohnB argues against the idea. With fire.

dtsund notes that kaisel's been warning against theorycrafting while providing a fair bit himself. Umby provides a bit of a counterpoint to the theory=ill intent theory. A bit of discussion as to what there is to talk about beyond theory on day one ensues. A couple players seem to adopt the old "poke and see what happens" strategy over the rest of the day.

Wheels gets a bit of attention from The Giant Head over his relatively quiet play compared to last time. Wheels makes a counterpoint, citing the results of his activity last game.

Tock accuses Chady of playing safely. Paul le Fou raises the possibility of a sinister partnership between djSyndrome and SDMX. Everybody denies everything.

The movements against kaisel and Wheels gain momentum. At this point, it's becoming a wagon race. As one might expect, the bandwagon with Wheels moves quicker than the one without. There's a bit of back and forth between Wheels and djSyndrome, which leads to some suspicion against both. Wheels' motives when voting are called into question, whereas djSyndrome is accused of being a smokescreen and trying to create a target rather than acting on honest suspicion. Wheels posts some stuff that confuses some people.

Tock calls for those who haven't already to vote. And they do. Rai gets attention for only posting once, so far. The kaisel bandwagon gains on Wheels' with the late voters pushing it out of the mud, before overtaking it completely

Rai shows up, and casts his vote. McClain suspects they're being pushed from the shadows and Rai postulates that with a close 2-way race, the mafia will be splitting their votes between the two top lynch candidates.

A bit more discussion about whether the watchlist/theorycrafting are good/bad/ok things ensues.

kaisel lays out his last will and testament, detailing his suspicions and his view of the state of the game. This proves to be a little premature, however, as Umby ties the vote up before Wheels takes his vote away from kaisel, essentially sending himself up to the gallows. He makes his suspicions known, and the day closes with Wheels' neck underneath the ax.

One lethal dose of drugs later, Wheels was dead, and revealed to be innocent. McClain breathes a secret sigh of relief that he made it halfway to day 2.

McClain
10-23-2010, 10:40 AM
McClain breathes a secret sigh of relief that he made it halfway to day 2.

Ain't no secret, brother!

VorpalEdge
10-23-2010, 10:52 AM
I'm still refreshing the forum every 10 minutes. I think I've been fundamentally broken.

widdershins
10-23-2010, 10:54 AM
Ain't no secret, brother!

There's always night kills. ;-P

Umby
10-23-2010, 12:02 PM
Winter, that is amazing. Keep it up.

I would say something about the game, but the big scary GM is making me shut up and not metagame, so I won't.

Paul le Fou
10-24-2010, 06:15 AM
I think it's bad form. Not that my opinion matters, but maybe people could try using evidence and strategy to catch bad guys? I mean, technically there's nothing in the rules that stops you from hacking into people's Wave accounts and seeing if they've been to the speakeasy.

Yeah, we had a gentleman's agreement back in game 1 not to mess around with forum tech in lieu of actually playing the game. Don't be a scumbag, scumbags!

Merus
10-24-2010, 08:12 AM
I strongly suggest that when the tension ratchets up you all start looking at the guys who are very clearly posting in this thread to make their town allegience clear. I know I've always posted in this thread when I've felt my position was shaky or when I was mafia.

I figure the more you're forced to come up with clever schemes like Byron's last game the better off we'll all be.

McClain
10-24-2010, 11:07 PM
Dawn of
The Second Day


(it's a goddamn beautiful thing)

Javex
10-25-2010, 01:38 AM
Congrats, McClain! You've earned a second day of life!

(Note to Gemini colonists: Kill him).

----

Also, with Zebra now joining in on it, I am loving the "in-character" posts that are showing up.

SDMX
10-25-2010, 01:57 AM
Son of a bitch. You morph motherfuckers stole my reason for reading the Libra game.

After every round gets pumped into your sticky purple innards, I hope someone says "That was for dwolfe."

JohnB
10-25-2010, 03:55 AM
Goddammit. This is almost exactly like what happened to Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. Good luck fellas!

dwolfe
10-25-2010, 07:41 AM
I totally predicted I'd be murdered night 1. I wish I had posted that for proof yesterday, but it might have given the Morphlings the idea.

_L_
10-25-2010, 11:01 AM
It's been about six hours and I don't see enough bloodied noses on the Gemini screens. I humbly request the admin to start flooding their chambers with vapourised testosterone.

Winter
10-25-2010, 01:03 PM
I imagine McClain's throwing a party over not being killed day 1. The only people posting are those not invited.

Luana
10-25-2010, 01:14 PM
I strongly suggest that when the tension ratchets up you all start looking at the guys who are very clearly posting in this thread to make their town allegience clear. I know I've always posted in this thread when I've felt my position was shaky or when I was mafia.

I figure the more you're forced to come up with clever schemes like Byron's last game the better off we'll all be.

This is why I won't metagame on here or pay attention to anything the other Libra colonists say. I don't know, it seems less fun if people are trying to play the game on here as well as on the thread itself.

dwolfe
10-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Death note posted, for those following along in the peanut gallery. Afaik, no information about the game contained therein.

shivam
10-25-2010, 01:19 PM
This is why I won't metagame on here or pay attention to anything the other Libra colonists say. I don't know, it seems less fun if people are trying to play the game on here as well as on the thread itself.

man, when we get into it, we're playing the game in that thread, this thread, every other thread, AIM convos, xbox live, post cards and the pony express.

every blink is a tell.

Luana
10-25-2010, 01:22 PM
man, when we get into it, we're playing the game in that thread, this thread, every other thread, AIM convos, xbox live, post cards and the pony express.

every blink is a tell.

Why do you think this is so agonizing for me? I live with someone in the game, and trust me, I've been metagaming over dinner, on car rides, and it's slowly killing me. I can only metagame so much, man!

Nodal
10-25-2010, 01:26 PM
Why do you need to worry about it? Unless you're worried about giving something away.

SDMX
10-25-2010, 01:33 PM
Why do you think this is so agonizing for me? I live with someone in the game, and trust me, I've been metagaming over dinner, on car rides, and it's slowly killing me. I can only metagame so much, man!

Just put a knife in his back and be done with it. If it comes out purple, you'll know you've done the right thing.

Luana
10-25-2010, 01:42 PM
Why do you need to worry about it? Unless you're worried about giving something away.

I like being able to talk about things at the dinner table. Sometimes we talk about Talking Time, and not only is there this interesting thing that I want to talk about, I am forbidden to do so by penalty of interstellar law. You know how it is when someone tells you that you can't do something -- you just want to do it even more so.

Also, I worry about everything. I'm a worrier!

botticus
10-25-2010, 01:56 PM
Also, I worry about everything. I'm a worrier!

I bet your friends call you Whiskers, don't they?

Brickroad
10-26-2010, 06:35 AM
Just so you guys know, I have been adding items every night to what will become my M8 pitch.

It's going to be so awesome your face might explode.

dwolfe
10-26-2010, 07:19 AM
Am I really that much of the Weakest Link in these games? If so, why have I gotten killed so early more than once :)

JohnB
10-26-2010, 11:36 AM
Am I really that much of the Weakest Link in these games? If so, why have I gotten killed so early more than once :)

Aww. You should do what I do, and just imagine that you're such a threat to the Enemy that they had to take you out first.

Adam
10-26-2010, 11:14 PM
Oh man dwolfe died? Mafia times are going to be boring now...

...

I AM HAPPY TO BE WRONG

shivam
10-27-2010, 10:28 AM
man, what's going on with this edition of mafia? it's so.... dead.

Destil
10-27-2010, 03:02 PM
Ah, mafia. The only people I fear more than those who are out to get me lynched are those who defend me.

Luana
10-27-2010, 04:27 PM
man, what's going on with this edition of mafia? it's so.... dead.

For me, it's the combo of Rock Band, today's midterm, and all that bullshit that happened that I mentioned in Relationshippy, I haven't been paying very much attention to Mafia. Sorry!

kaisel
10-27-2010, 05:09 PM
man, what's going on with this edition of mafia? it's so.... dead.

I have some theories about this, but I don't want to talk about the game too much while it's still ongoing (and while there's still a chance that it'll change).

There was a similar issue during M3 as well though, if I remember correctly.

JohnB
10-27-2010, 06:30 PM
man, what's going on with this edition of mafia? it's so.... dead.

QFT

Adam
10-27-2010, 07:57 PM
Man, such a fantastic idea to stop all the flavor text :(

VorpalEdge
10-27-2010, 08:34 PM
I love you, dwolfe.

dwolfe
10-27-2010, 08:34 PM
The saga of dwolfe's Secret Diary (http://www.gamespite.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=888420&postcount=327)lives on.

And while entirely and deliberately unrelated to the game underway, it will continue in hopes of the sheer entertainment value contained therein, for the players and peanut gallery both. Unless Nich say to stop, obviously.

dtsund
10-27-2010, 09:16 PM
I obviously can't speak on behalf of Nich, dwolfe, but... when I run a game, I'm fine with letting the dead players make one last 'goodbye/screw you all' post. I'd probably be somewhat irritated with more than one, because that's kind of a slippery slope.

dwolfe
10-27-2010, 09:40 PM
Yes, you get one post. No more diaries, please.

Dead is dead. Outside the game is outside the game. Please respect the boundaries.

K, that's the end of it.

Destil
10-27-2010, 11:09 PM
That's a fantastic idea.

Paul le Fou
10-27-2010, 11:58 PM
f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5

djSyndrome
10-28-2010, 12:01 AM
f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5 f5

No kidding. I have to be up in six hours for work but CAN'T SLEEP MORPHS WILL EAT ME.

widdershins
10-28-2010, 12:02 AM
Haha, bet you'll sleep well now, dj. :-)

Luana
10-28-2010, 12:04 AM
I do appreciate that people want to be able to talk about the game, though, so I'm going to start up a Champagne Room Wave. PM me your Google account name if you want to be added to it. Two things, though, before you sign up:

1) There will be spoilers for both games in the one Wave. Don't sign up unless you want to know everything.
2) By signing up, you agree not to post in this thread at all until both games are over.

This is the best idea.

McClain
10-28-2010, 12:07 AM
What better way to find out than to crucify the son of a bitch?

Holy shit, that was brutal.

djSyndrome
10-28-2010, 12:10 AM
Haha, bet you'll sleep well now, dj. :-)

Man fuck you :(

SDMX
10-28-2010, 12:18 AM
HOLY SHIT NICH YOU ARE FUCKED UP I LOVE YOU

Also, sweet dreams, boned compatriots. =V

Meditative_Zebra
10-28-2010, 12:31 AM
SWEET JESUS FUCK THEY CRUCIFIED SDMX!

HOLY SHIT NICH YOU ARE FUCKED UP I LOVE YOU

Amen and goodnight.

Winter
10-28-2010, 09:55 AM
Gemini, Day 2
Posts 135-211

The day begins with the colonists discovering the body of JohnB, at least what was left of him. The colonists are all understandably somber and quiet after that. Although, honestly, everyone seems more sad over Wheels' death yesterday than this. Poor JohnB. I'll mourn you, at least.

botticus leads the day off, putting forward some theories as to what it means if kaisel is/isn't morphia, and wonders what our fair citizens might be able to learn from JohnB's murder. dtsund gives a possible answer a few posts down; the morphia like the idea of the watch list. Looks like JohnB won that argument from beyond the grave.

djSyndrome accuses Umby, based on his vote-switching to Wheels late yesterday. dtsund accuses kaisel, because of JohnB's previous reasoning, and that kaisel looks to be giving off the appearance of being useful without contributing. botticus follows along as well, because of the information available upon kaisel's death. kaisel defends himself, the watchlist, and gives his take on yesterday's votes.

McClain continues his "the shadows are controlling us" rhetoric from yesterday, suggesting that puppet master Umby tied up the vote between Wheels and kaisel so that one would die and the other would be under the gun today. And hey, what do you know?

chady calls out McClain over making a big show about not voting for someone he thought innocent, and not leaving anything important for the voting record. Umby pipes in to defend himself, and reiterates a case made yesterday about djSyndrome trying to throw suspicion on Wheels for nefarious purposes. Rai gives chady some attention, for trying to either bandwagon or throw an innocent under the bus, and for trying to play without standing out. He follows this up with a formal accusation. McClain agrees with Rai's logic, and reads chady as trying to dissuade people from not wanting to kill citizens. Another vote for chady.

Umby makes kind of a confusing post defending his votes yesterday, and lays bare his insecurities regarding the chady vote. McClain hops on this, and notes Umby's use of the word bandwagon, because nobody ever uses that word when playing mafia. Specifically, he thinks Umby used the term to try and scare people off of voting for chady. chady shows up in his own defense, explaining the statements he made earlier, that with the way it lay, the colony had a choice between killing kaisel or wheels, so the proper course of action was in choosing which was more likely to be guilty. He notes McClain's lack of argument when claiming someone's innocence, and claims both McClain and Rai should be getting more attention for not voting for either of the forerunners. Rai finds chady's clarification unpersuasive, and his thinking "suspicious and dangerous". chady returns fire by saying that mafia like to spread their votes around and make a big show of not operating with the group.

Paul le Fou breaks things up by pointing out the least visible players, those who, while they may have been posting, have said little of substance. This, in Paul's view, is a good place for mafia to hide. djSyndrome gets particular attention and a vote for attempting to drive conversation while saying very little himself. botticus wasn't included in Paul's list, and feels left out. djSyndrome says he hasn't be saying much because he has no material to work with, as Gemini has been rather quiet today. Tock follows up on something Paul mentioned, theorizing that SDMX may be hiding behind his roleplaying, so as to be difficult to read. Umby calls for djSyndrome's reasoning, and sends a vote his way.

The Giant Head votes for SDMX for being difficult to understand, and for making a suspicious push for JohnB yesterday. chady, channeling his inner cowboy, shoots a vote at dstund's feet, trying to make him dance. Then he apologizes profusely, and votes for dtsund instead. djSyndrome switches his vote to SDMX, who has not said a single thing yet this game day. SDMX finally returns from protesting space for being gay to make a post in his defense, with more transparent role-playing. He's still not saying enough of substance for the other Geminiers, so kaisel, Tock and dtsund ruin that beautiful four-way tie they had to push SDMX up to the block.

botticus calls McClain out over his vote yesterday, McClain gives the same explanation he did earlier, and lays today's suspicions out. SDMX drops the flavor entirely. He gives his reason for missing the day, finds the arguments against him lacking, and makes his vote for djSyndrome based primarily on past knowledge of playing with him. botticus notes a circle of accusations between Umby, djSyndrome, and SDMX, and is convinced at least one person in that circle is unclean. djSyndrome gets his vote. The circle responds by chasing each other's tails for a bit.

dtsund, having gotten what he wanted out of SDMX, switches his vote back to kaisel. McClain tallies the votes, notes that dtsund created a tie between SDMX and djSyndrome, and breaks the tie with a vote for SDMX. chady got what he wanted out of dtsund, and brings his vote to McClain, because his feelings are hurt. A couple members lay down their suspicions in the event that SDMX is clean. The day closes with SDMX being led to the noose. Or the crucifix, as the case was. His death was slow and painful, but he retained his form throughout, proving himself after death to be human.

Tanto
10-28-2010, 09:57 AM
Libra Day 2
~Posts #208-340

The Day begins with the Citizens discovering that dwolfe has been killed during the night.

Shivam immediately votes for Destil, as there had been some suspicion against him in the waning hours of Day 1, but not enough to build up a case against him. Spineshark, Brickroad, and Nodal quickly fall into line behind him. Widdershins demands an explanation as to why Destil is so dangerous as to merit such a bandwagon.

There's some discussion between Kayma, Meditative_Zebra, and widdershins as to the number of Mafia, which doesn't go anywhere new.

Destil posts in defense of himself, expressing suspicions of shivam, but he's unsure as to whether this is only because he finds shivam's playstyle irritating. He also points out that shivam immediately had a defense/explanation laid out for dwolfe's death, even before being pressed on it. Widdershins backs up Destil, and notes a post by shivam which is potentially revealing in case shivam is guilty.

Mazokunomiko says she's suspicious of shivam, but that she's much more suspicious of anyone who simply hops on whatever bandwagon rolls by. Brickroad concedes that he'd rather see shivam dead than Destil, so if someone can get a voting push organized against him, he'll switch his vote.

Shivam argues that the Mafia killed dwolfe in order to mislead the Citizens into voting for him, and that if he was Mafia, he'd have night-killed someone else. Widdershins points out that the only person who even mentioned anything along these lines is shivam himself, and that if shivam hadn't mentioned it it might never have come up -- so how effective a strategy is it, really? Brickroad sarcastically notes that if shivam is right, he (shivam) has the game entirely figured out, so the other Citizens can just kick back and relax. Widdershins exorts shivam to back up his suspicions with hard evidence rather than gut feeling.

Luana argues that if shivam is guilty, it reflects badly on spineshark and Nodal, while if Destil is Mafia, Meditative_Zebra and widdershins probably are as well. She says that she's "absolutely sure" that widdershins and Mazokunomiko are Mafia.

VorpalEdge notes that shivam claiming victim isn't a good play for either innocents or Mafia, so it's not necessarily meaningful, although he concedes that he's loath to attribute it to simple paranoia. He also expresses some suspicion of widdershins.

Mazokunomiko says that its been hours since widdershins asked people to back up their Destil votes, but other than spineshark, no one has responded.

The obligatory Brickroad slapfight takes place, between he and shivam.

At widdershins's prodding, Brickroad switches his vote to shivam. Luana votes for widdershins. Mazokunomiko takes aim at Nodal.

Destil and VorpalEdge argue briefly about the proper way to frame someone.

Widdershins explains that he's not particularly enthusiastic about any of the leading vote-getters, a running theme this Day. He accuses Kayma based on non-participation, and Kayma responds by sticking his head in long enough to vote for Nodal. Spineshark jumps on the shivam bandwagon, as do Garrison and Nodal. Widdershins describes shivam as the Mafia's "wet dream", as if he's innocent the Citizens don't learn anything from killing him (since he was suspicious of basically everybody and basically everybody was suspicious of him). Widdershins votes for Nodal instead.

Luana notes that the Nodal bandwagon plays into her suspicions of Mazokunomiko and widdershins (as they essentially masterminded the whole thing).

Despite a late push for Mazokunomiko, shivam is still in the lead when time is called. He is killed, and revealed to be a Citizen.

botticus
10-28-2010, 10:17 AM
I love these summaries.

shivam
10-28-2010, 12:41 PM
Both deaths were pretty nasty tonight. I dunno why exactly. No offense meant, dead dudes!

Also, I feel I should point out that it's nighttime now. Thanks.

dude, you burned me at the stake. in a space station.

djSyndrome
10-28-2010, 12:52 PM
SDMX finally returns from protesting space for being gay to make a post in his defense

This is kind of uncalled for.

Winter
10-28-2010, 12:54 PM
Maybe so, but if you use the word "faggot", even in jest, I reserve the right to harp on that a bit.

shivam
10-28-2010, 01:07 PM
you know, i have no idea where the idea came from, but it stuck.

also, there was no way i was gonna post last night. i was too busy doing things that were awesome.

Eddie
10-28-2010, 01:14 PM
It's probably becuase you put the game on an asteroid.

- Eddie

Destil
10-28-2010, 01:20 PM
Yeah, my thought is asteroid = not enough gravity for a sustainable atmosphere.

djSyndrome
10-28-2010, 01:20 PM
Maybe so, but if you use the word "faggot", even in jest, I reserve the right to harp on that a bit.

Oh, is that what he said? To be honest I didn't read hist wall-o-text.

Well then I retract my accusation of Winter and I accuse SDMX of being a bigoted homophobe.

(also, my daughter's name is Winter, so every time you post I want to scream GET OFF THE INTERNET at you. sorry!)

Eddie
10-28-2010, 01:55 PM
Mafia 7: where we finally answer the question on whether or not to roleplay.

Incidently, I'm kind of just poking through the threads now. I appreciate that I've apparently got a strategy named after me. I am ignoring the part where neraly everyone rightly describes it as 'ineffective.'

- Eddie

shivam
10-28-2010, 01:57 PM
i'm really bummed at the negative reaction to the roleplaying. i personally love that stuff, and it's a big part of my fun from these games.

and man, anyone who thinks sdmx was doing anything but acting out the part of a cigar chomping starcraft drone soldier is doing him a disservice.

McClain
10-28-2010, 02:24 PM
i'm really bummed at the negative reaction to the roleplaying. i personally love that stuff, and it's a big part of my fun from these games.

and man, anyone who thinks sdmx was doing anything but acting out the part of a cigar chomping starcraft drone soldier is doing him a disservice.

I have no problem with Role Playing when I can still parse your meaning. dwolfe in M4 did a FANTASTIC job of it, for example.

Not to harp on it too much, but my real problem with SDMX this game was him using "faggot" in the first post. I'd react the same way if it has used the N-word. Maybe I'm overly sensitive.

shivam
10-28-2010, 02:30 PM
man, if you knew who sdmx slept with and where he hangs out daily, you'd be far less likely to harp on his usage, which was, i assure you, strictly in character, where the character was a conservative homophobic hyper religious colonist on a barren rock.

SDMX
10-28-2010, 02:39 PM
Not to harp on it too much, but my real problem with SDMX this game was him using "faggot" in the first post. I'd react the same way if it has used the N-word. Maybe I'm overly sensitive.

Probably not. I'm a) nigh psychotic in my defense of the freedom and openness of language b) dedicated to playing a role genuinely in how I feel a character would respond and react (this has gotten me in trouble before) and c) a resident of the Bay Area, where there's been a pretty large reclamation of the word (though primarily as its diminutive 'fag').

All that said, I find the any sentiment behind a genuine delivery of that word's historic meaning to be as reprehensible as you do, but the man that was just put up on a cross was a fiction and I feel no more attached or associated with his views than Stephen King's complicity of genocide in Apt Pupil.

I do, however, genuinely apologize if anyone felt like I was attacking them for their sexuality or of homosexuality at all. As Shivam said, if that man knew where I spend a lot of my time, he'd put me up on that cross far quicker than the reverse.

Meditative_Zebra
10-28-2010, 02:42 PM
The end of day 2 was so gruesome! I can't get over SDMX being crucified and shivam being freaking burned to death!

man, if you knew who sdmx slept with and where he hangs out daily, you'd be far less likely to harp on his usage, which was, i assure you, strictly in character, where the character was a conservative homophobic hyper religious colonist on a barren rock.

I don't know SDMX personally, but I really enjoyed his flavor text. I can see why people would find it offensive, but I think anyone who thought it was anything other than him playing a character was forgetting that this is just a game.

McClain
10-28-2010, 03:10 PM
Okay, last I'm going to say on it. I understand that SDMX was role playing. I'm not going to hold anything against him personally. I won't try to kill him in future games because I didn't like the dude he was playing this time. Cool?

I don't want to talk about it anymore while this game is still going on. :)

spineshark
10-28-2010, 04:00 PM
I'm sorry y'all, it was my fault.

I was chatting with Nich about Megaten right when the day ended.

kaisel
10-28-2010, 04:53 PM
i'm really bummed at the negative reaction to the roleplaying. i personally love that stuff, and it's a big part of my fun from these games.

and man, anyone who thinks sdmx was doing anything but acting out the part of a cigar chomping starcraft drone soldier is doing him a disservice.

I enjoyed it, it was just difficult to parse at times. So I hope people don't give up on the roleplaying, just make sure it's readable without too much effort.

SDMX
10-28-2010, 04:54 PM
M8 wont be a hick or even have an accent, I promise. I'm glad everyone liked it more than they let on ingame. =]

...I'M STILL DEAD THO

Paul le Fou
10-28-2010, 05:42 PM
Yeah, I don't have a problem with flavor text specifically, just that SDMX's particular text was getting in the way of his actual gameplay. If you looked it over you could parse what he was trying to say most of the time, but putting it behind a smokescreen like that is kind of an odd move in a game specifically about trying to read and analyze people. It's a good way to mask intention and meaning, which is a good way to draw suspicion. Other people have done some RP and then had game detail separate, which is less immersive but you know what's flavor and what's the actual play.

It would work a lot better in real life where text isn't the only means of reading and interacting with someone (and judging by a few of his comments this is probably where SDMX was coming from).

That said, I think there's easily enough interest for a full-RP game one of these days. Where you have to RP. All the time.

McClain
10-28-2010, 05:57 PM
That said, I think there's easily enough interest for a full-RP game one of these days. Where you have to RP. All the time.

I'd actually be interested in this. I'd be shit at it, but I'd like to try it sometime.

JohnB
10-28-2010, 06:13 PM
Incidently, I'm kind of just poking through the threads now. I appreciate that I've apparently got a strategy named after me. I am ignoring the part where neraly everyone rightly describes it as 'ineffective.'

Sorry about that. It's true, though.

JohnB
10-28-2010, 06:42 PM
Probably not. I'm a) nigh psychotic in my defense of the freedom and openness of language b) dedicated to playing a role genuinely in how I feel a character would respond and react (this has gotten me in trouble before) and c) a resident of the Bay Area, where there's been a pretty large reclamation of the word (though primarily as its diminutive 'fag').

I support these ideals, and personally I had no problems with the content of your posts. However, I think the issue at hand isn't really the specific content of your posts and more the concept of RPing in the TT Mafia threads. Frankly, there's a reason it is abandoned before Day 1 is half over, and that's for the sake of the Players in the game. Information is King, and clarity is a necessity. If you aren't clear, you're going to be lynched. Also, and maybe this is just me, but I doubt it's really very fun to RP when hardly anyone else is.

Paul le Fou
10-30-2010, 07:16 AM
I choose to believe I was killed because of my incredibly sharp and dangerous intuition, and nothing you can do or say can stop me.

Looks like I need a champagne room invite and I need it now!

McClain
10-30-2010, 02:12 PM
Wow, all of a sudden everyone in Libra is trying to see whose is longer. Love it.

Brickroad
10-30-2010, 02:13 PM
Wow, all of a sudden everyone in Libra is trying to see whose is longer. Love it.

Has Gemini not killed you yet? Didn't they get the memo?

Michelle
10-30-2010, 02:14 PM
My dick is the longest.

Destil
10-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Ah, finally a moment of free time in this god-awful Vegas trip. Now to play me some maf... oh. Oh.
I choose to believe I was killed because of my incredibly sharp and dangerous intuition, and nothing you can do or say can stop me.

Looks like I need a champagne room invite and I need it now!

shivam
10-31-2010, 12:51 AM
so the lesson here is talk and you get killed. so the only way to win is to not talk? this game is awesome.

Paul le Fou
10-31-2010, 07:10 AM
seriously though am I allowed in the champagne room

Nodal
10-31-2010, 09:44 AM
so the lesson here is talk and you get killed. so the only way to win is to not talk? this game is awesome.

http://media.chick.com/tractimages96122/0046/0046_03.gif

shivam
10-31-2010, 03:42 PM
champaign room?

Brickroad
10-31-2010, 03:43 PM
champaign room?

Don't get too excited -- there's no sex in there.

Michelle
10-31-2010, 03:45 PM
Don't get too excited -- there's no sex in there.

Just remember ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9yBPcn8IqU)

Brickroad
10-31-2010, 04:02 PM
I just glazed over McClain's post because I figured he was dead by now, so why bother reading it.

dwolfe
10-31-2010, 07:12 PM
so the lesson here is talk and you get killed. so the only way to win is to not talk? this game is awesome.

I'm going to hold off replying to this quote, for fear of metagaming, and just leave a placeholder note that it's an interesting observation.

This game has NOT been awesome.

Michelle
10-31-2010, 10:47 PM
Well, Gemini just got awesome. :D

Nodal
10-31-2010, 10:57 PM
Oh snap.

Paul le Fou
10-31-2010, 11:38 PM
!!!

Also we need more people in the champagne room. Now that I'm in I think I can invite too...? PM Nich (or me?? maybe??) your email address and let's get some no-holds barred discussion going!

shivam
10-31-2010, 11:45 PM
alright gemini, you have your mission. it's time to...autolynch the scanner!!!

Paul le Fou
10-31-2010, 11:56 PM
PM me only, please. And remember that particular wave is off-limits to any living players (and people in it aren't supposed to be posting to this thread while the games are still going, Paul...)

Just recruiting, boss!

Eddie
11-01-2010, 10:20 AM
alright gemini, you have your mission. it's time to...autolynch the scanner!!!

I am the happiest Mafia reader in the world.

- Eddie

Dizzy
11-01-2010, 07:39 PM
I think I've found the ultimate Mafia quote:

brickroad is a living representation of the tragedy of the commons.

McClain
11-01-2010, 09:20 PM
I think the Champagne Room has killed this thread. But I bet Nich's happy with that ;)

(I want to watch from VIP next game.)

Meditative_Zebra
11-01-2010, 10:58 PM
http://www.maragos.org/images/sonatine.jpg

Pre-emptive apologies!

McClain
11-01-2010, 10:59 PM
What the fuck? Total anarchy everywhere.

Nodal
11-01-2010, 11:04 PM
Whoa holy shit am I dying? What?

Michelle
11-01-2010, 11:06 PM
I have no idea how this ended up AGGGGH!

dwolfe
11-01-2010, 11:15 PM
F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

Michelle
11-01-2010, 11:17 PM
F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5

But didn't you say...


This game has NOT been awesome.

:D

spineshark
11-01-2010, 11:22 PM
Some people just don't have the bold vision it takes to make things happen in this game.

dwolfe
11-01-2010, 11:22 PM
But didn't you say...



:D

It took my gentle taunt at the players to make sh*t get real in both games, apparently!

Adam
11-01-2010, 11:28 PM
I am laughing and cheering so hard you guys. And I don't even know who's who.

EDIT: What I do know is that Nich is a badass.

McClain
11-01-2010, 11:29 PM
uh oh.

widdershins
11-01-2010, 11:30 PM
WTF just happened in gemini?!

EDIT: OH SHIT! That's AWESOME!

Nodal
11-01-2010, 11:31 PM
HAHAHAHA.

McClain
11-01-2010, 11:32 PM
Called it.

Eddie
11-01-2010, 11:32 PM
I laughed, I cried.

WHAT A TWIST!

- Eddie

Rai
11-01-2010, 11:32 PM
Well. I was right on the number anyway.

One hat, coming up.

Nodal
11-01-2010, 11:33 PM
What did I say! The first time you don't kill Umby!

spineshark
11-01-2010, 11:34 PM
Umby survived M6. Mostly because he had a role.

Nodal
11-01-2010, 11:36 PM
Umby survived M6. Mostly because he had a role.

I killed Umby!

McClain
11-01-2010, 11:37 PM
Well, I think the ghosts of the crew of Gemini need passes to the VIP lounge now. At least, I know I do.

Is it safe to assume that thread is open now, or do you still have business you want to take care of, Nich?

djSyndrome
11-01-2010, 11:41 PM
Chady, if you're a second Technician, I will eat my hat.

Brickroad
11-02-2010, 12:18 AM
TWO TECHNICIANS!?

Nich, you are a beautiful, beautiful son of a bitch.

Wheels
11-02-2010, 08:44 AM
I need to get in on the next mafia in the worst way to redeem myself, GAH.

Dizzy
11-02-2010, 09:00 AM
I've tweaked my original game, and if no one wants to play this... beautiful thing I've created I may have to play it myself with a haunted expression of terrible awe.

Tanto
11-02-2010, 10:03 AM
Not looking too good, is it? I gots opinions about this one, but I'll save 'em for the post-game.

Libra Day 3
~Posts #342-504~

The Day begins with the Citizens discovering that Destil was killed during the Night.

Widdershins immediately begins setting up an alibi, claiming that he was against lynching Mr. J, Destil, and shivam, all of whom ended up innocent. Spineshark admits that the Citizens learned virtually nothing from their Day 2 lynch of shivam, and accuses Meditative_Zebra.

Brickroad says that he would have introduced a radical new strategy today that would have entailed hitting Destil first, but now that the latter's dead, he's reconsidering. (This strategy, he later reveals, would be to start killing the smart players, the reasoning being that it's as good as picking randomly and hurts the Mafia more if it hits. Widdershins and Nodal scoff.) Widdershins argues that Mazokunomiko is probably innocent, since she voted for shivam only to save her own neck, and votes for Nodal tentatively. He also notes that Garrison, spineshark, and VorpalEdge participated in both Citizen lynches so far, and says that at least one of them is guilty. Meditative_Zebra takes this to heart, and votes for spineshark.

Luana points out that both shivam and Destil suspected Mazokunomiko at one point or another, and now both are dead. She votes for Mazokunomiko. Brickroad accuses Mazokunomiko as well, claiming her behavior to be characteristic of newbie Mafia. Brickroad and Mazokunomiko argue back and forth for a while about the value of defending yourself when under pressure. Widdershins finds Brickroad's case weak and his attitude irritating and defeatist, and votes for him, which sets off another Brickroad/X fight.

Far away from all this mess, Garrison posts a digest of Destil.

Kayma votes for widdershins, and spineshark notes that the game in its current state (quiet sulking, followed by random votes right before the deadline) is right up Kayma's alley. Both Brickroad and widdershins bury the hatchet long enough to put the screws to Kayma. Widdershins and spineshark both vote for him.

There's some more discussion as to Mazokunomiko's actions, which doesn't go anywhere.

Meditative_Zebra does some voting analysis and argues that VorpalEdge, Garrison, and spineshark are the best targets.

There is some last-minute vote-shuffling as various people try to talk their way off a lynch. Nodal briefly takes the lead, and spineshark tries to get a bandwagon started against Brickroad, but when Nich calls time Kayma is the one in the lead. He is revealed to be innocent.

Winter
11-02-2010, 10:27 AM
Gemini, Day 3
Posts 212-324

Morning dawned with the grizzly discovery of Paul le Fou's cold, dead body. It seems to me the potential for painfully bad one-liners was high here. I really hope that Paul was all, "You can have this colony after you pry it from my cold, dead fingers!" then the morphs were all like, "Dude, chill out." Imminent death is no reason not to have a good time.

McClain, full of fire, accuses Umby before Paul's body is even taken down. Umby defends his vote for djSyndrome on day 1. chady notes those who voted for an innocent on both days, a list comprised of Tock, djSyndrome, the Giant Head, and kaisel. He accuses Tock, because he finds Tock's logic inconsistent. Tock finds chady's logic inconsistent, as chady's accusation of Tock was, in part, for voting against a front-runner, when chady accused others for doing the opposite yesterday. chady clarifies, and notes that voting for kaisel on day one would have been more in line with Tock's logic than voting for Wheels. Tock feels that he's being accused for abandoning an idea he thought was weak.

Rai accuses McClain. He says it's because of McClain's last minute vote switch, but we all know it's because McClain being alive for so long is making everyone feel weird. chady and Tock go back and forth again for a little bit. chady puts together a digest of the Giant Head's activities, and notes that it's hard to get a read on him when he's said so little. He points out that the Giant Head was going to be keeping an eye on the quiet players, and did so by going undercover as a quiet player himself. He then gets back to returning fire on Tock. dtsund thinks djSyndrome has been trying to avoid suspicion, and votes his way. Umby drops in to say that he's not going to say anything yet. With some prompting from chady and McClain, Umby reveals that he's suspicious of djSyndrome for his lack of activity, and gives him a vote. djSyndrome responds that after two days of acting early and getting attention for it, he's changing gears and not voting until late in the day.

kaisel votes McClain, because his vote switch on day 1 was largely useless in saving Wheels, and he's been giving the appearance of trying to pick up activity without actually adding anything. McClain states that he didn't think kaisel was guilty on day 1, either, and he'd rather not vote for someone he suspects of being innocent. He also claims that by voting, he's "contributed in the best possible way". botticus votes for djSyndrome, stating that his logic on previous days remains unchanged. djSyndrome states that by killing him, the day is over. He claims that the morphs killed SDMX yesterday and Paul le Fou overnight to throw suspicion on djSyndrome today. He accuses McClain, for driving the nail into SDMX's coffin and being suspicious to Paul le Fou.

chady pipes up to let everyone know that he watches people through their windows at night. He says he uses his technician's goggles, but still, pretty creepy. He fingers Umby and kaisel as definite morphs, and votes for Umby. Rai calls bullshit, and votes for chady. Rai claims to be the colonist's peeping tom technician, and that SDMX and botticus are clean. chady says that Rai is obviously a morph. Rai puts forward the logic behind a morph coming forward as the investigator, and points out that he's hinted at his identity in past posts. He defends against questions as to why he let SDMX die by claiming it was all self-preservation, that any major moves he made would make him suspicious to both colonists and morphs. Some colonists wonder why chady never pursued either of the people he knew were morphs. McClain questions Rai's choice of scanning botticus. Rai responds by claiming that the loud players would probably die one way or another, so he wanted to scan the quiet ones, who could possibly be hiding underneath everyone else, and who would likely survive for a while if innocent. chady takes issue with Rai's logic for coming out. Rai takes issue with chady's logic against his logic. McClain details his views in a single post: the morph chady would have nothing to gain for faking investigator now, that chady's findings would be much easier to fake than Rai's, that shooting 2-for-2 on the scans is incredibly unlikely, etc. He keeps his vote on Umby. Chady thinks that Rai was the conversion, and that there are currently 4 morphia.

botticus and djSyndrome continue their riff from before. botticus makes known his temptation to lay-off both apparent investigators, for the information that would be available from the morphia's night moves in response. Rai finds this a bad idea. botticus switches his vote to chady. kaisel is hesitant to act either way, because as someone who is "outed", both votes for chady or Rai could be used against him. kaisel finds hitting two morphia to be incredibly unlikely as well, but does find logic behind targetting Umby then him. He believes morph Rai faking investigator unlikely. On the other hand, Rai's choice of scanning botticus seems odd to him. botticus finds chady's lack of action towards kaisel suspicious. chady said he was playing it low to get information on the Giant Head and Tock. djSyndrome thinks chady is just saying what the colonists want to hear, and accuses him. chady's saying he saw djSyndrome and McClain being set up by morphs, and had to act. They argue for a while. The Giant Head finds Rai's behavior more indicative of an investigator than chady's. McClain lays out the results of a lynching in the case of chady or Rai lying, and if Umby or Kaisel are morphs. He finds it unlikely that morphs would lead with a fake investigator when the colonists weren't hitting on anything. Tock mentions the possibility that the colonists wouldn't necessarily lose in the case of tied populations, and provides a bit of an addendum on McClain's logic, that Morph chady named Morph Umby as a smokescreen, so the humans would go ahead and kill Colonist kaisel as well. Umby votes chady. The Giant Head votes chady, and creates an awesome shirt. botticus switches his vote for Umby, finding the chances of him being morph greater than chady's. kaisel votes chady, dtsund votes chady, Tock votes chady. chady, prepared for death, prepares his last rites. By the decision of the colonists, he is killed.


Later that night, Rai searched chady's quarters, and finds his goggles. Turns out, two technicians had been sent to colony Gemini, and they had both screwed each other. Unfortunately, before Rai can report this information, he too is killed. At this point, McClain, botticus, dtsund, and djSyndrome don't have the numbers or equipment to stand up to the morphs. The beings the colonist had known known as Umby, Tock, kaisel, and The Giant Head are in a position to completely rout the colonists. With no human able to mount a defense, and no help on its way, they have no need hurry. The surviving colonists have no hope of escape or survival, they can only pray to live as long as possible before the morphs catch up to them. The asteroid is not large enough for them to hide, and there is nowhere for them to run that the morphs cannot reach. The surviving colonists will be rightly aware of each breath they have, each heartbeat, knowing they only remain alive because the morphs have not seen fit to kill them yet. Some may say their fate was the result of mankind's foolish lust for expansion, that man was born from the dust of the earth, and earth is where they were meant to stay. Some may say that it was simply survival of the fittest, that they had been out-thought and outmaneuvered by the more deserving morphs. Some may say that it was the machinations of a cruel GM, spiteful over having been killed before the first day had ended in M6, seeking vengeance on the civilians who had him slain. Whatever the cause, the fact remains that we have lost ten brave souls to the cold grip of death. I ask now for a moment of silence for our ill-faring colonists.















Well, the game may be over, but the fun's not ended yet.

Chady, if you're a second Technician, I will eat my hat. I like my hat.

If you're a second technician, I will also eat your hat.

I hope you're hungry, gents

McClain
11-02-2010, 10:45 AM
McClain, full of fire

This awesome. Your writeups are awesome. You are pretty awesome.

Winter
11-02-2010, 10:50 AM
Hey thanks! I'm glad people liked them. I think I'm pretty awesome too.

Anyways, now that my write-ups are done and I don't need to post here anymore, I'll be seeing you all in the champagne room. Assuming Libra survives overnight.

Umby
11-02-2010, 11:42 AM
Put me in the Champagne room as well, I have my own ideas on who is mafia. I'm surprised other people haven't caught on yet, but of course, I'm probably way off because I'm using my gut feeling! TM

JohnB
11-02-2010, 12:03 PM
Now that the Gemini game is over I'd like a champagne room invite, too.

Tock
11-02-2010, 12:30 PM
I'd like an invite as well, please. Big Gemini party in the Champagne Room!

Some may say that it was the machinations of a cruel GM, spiteful over having been killed before the first day had ended in M6, seeking vengeance on the civilians who had him slain.

The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones,
So let it be with Byron.

kaisel
11-02-2010, 12:35 PM
Yeah, toss me into the champagne room as well, please.

SDMX
11-02-2010, 12:48 PM
Yeah, toss me into the champagne room as well, please.

NO MORPHS IN THE CHAMPAGNE ROOM. <http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v87/somniamagus/SA-emotes/mad.gif> kidding you magnificent bastard

JohnB
11-02-2010, 02:00 PM
The evil that men do lives after them,
The good is oft interred with their bones,
So let it be with Byron.

*weeps*

shivam
11-02-2010, 05:27 PM
sooooo....who wants to run m8?

spineshark
11-02-2010, 05:59 PM
I've been working on a pun-tastic proposal that I'll only put up once. (Here's a hint: it's not set in Australia. But I considered it.) It should be great! Has a couple new concepts I've been interested in for a while, along with my favorite returning roles!

McClain
11-02-2010, 06:04 PM
I'm going to be taking a break for M8, so I hope you guys pick a really, really crazy setup and the GM does this Champagne Room thing again.

chady
11-03-2010, 03:44 AM
Now that the election is over and I can focus on other things, I want a ticket to the champagne room.

Kayma
11-03-2010, 01:21 PM
Me too! Nich, I PM'ed you my google account.

Javex
11-03-2010, 04:19 PM
Hopefully, M8 starts late in November so I can join in!

At the rate these are going, I should be ready to pitch/GM a game around M12!

Merus
11-04-2010, 04:57 AM
That's why I don't think it's possible for the civvies to win a role-less game, barring a pretty severe Mafia slip-up. Without any solid, confirmable information, every post in the thread could be a Mafia lie, or an unsuspecting civvie who's been deluded.

Hey Nich, remember when you and I totally won a role-less game with a talented Mafia team? That apparently never happened.

(Yeah, yeah, the mafia slipped up. But they start in front, it's the town's job to make them slip up. Tennis differentiates between forced and unforced errors for similar reasons.)

spineshark
11-04-2010, 05:02 AM
Not that I don't agree (with you) but the Thing was totally different. Town players didn't die and they got to have multiple kills at once.

Brickroad
11-04-2010, 05:08 AM
Not that I don't agree (with you) but the Thing was totally different. Town players didn't die and they got to have multiple kills at once.

Plus they got free confirmation every day, even if only for one day.

But this isn't a discussion we should be having in the meta thread while the game is still on.

spineshark
11-04-2010, 05:12 AM
I agree. Why stop here? We should play Mafia in the Rock Band thread.

Destil
11-04-2010, 10:01 PM
I agree. Why stop here? We should play Mafia in the Rock Band thread.

I'm only playing if the songs are longer. Short songs just don't give enough time for the drummer to win.

Yeah, yeah, champagne room and all. Joke post, won't make a habit of it et cetera

Brickroad
11-06-2010, 07:34 PM
As one of the last remaining people not in the champagne room, I must say that the utter despair in Libra right now is pretty entertaining.

I don't know that "entertaining" is the right word for it. "Soul-crushing" might be better.

Meditative_Zebra
11-06-2010, 11:05 PM
So do I get invited to that champagne room up in heaven now that I'm dead?

dtsund
11-06-2010, 11:26 PM
Champagne room's comin' here, yo. You don't even need to go anywhere!

And you wouldn't want to go there either, unless you use Chrome. Google Wave... isn't exactly the friendliest place for Firefox.

EDIT: I also added links to the two games to the OP, only a few weeks after I actually should have.

Nodal
11-06-2010, 11:41 PM
Oh man, that was so much fun. More role-less Mafia pls.

shivam
11-06-2010, 11:49 PM
yeah, fuck that. role free games on message boards can go fuck themselves. these were the lowest post count games ever, and getting any discussion was like trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

Nodal
11-06-2010, 11:50 PM
yeah, fuck that. role free games on message boards can go fuck themselves. these were the lowest post count games ever, and getting any discussion was like trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

1/10 of the posts were you accusing everyone, yeah. :D

Meditative_Zebra
11-06-2010, 11:51 PM
yeah, fuck that. role free games on message boards can go fuck themselves. these were the lowest post count games ever, and getting any discussion was like trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

We had some awesome times, but it only ever wound up being at the end of each game day. If we go with an M7 type low-role game again we need a shorter schedule. Like 48/24. Or even 36/12.

Nodal
11-06-2010, 11:53 PM
We had some awesome times, but it only ever wound up being at the end of each game day. If we go with an M7 type low-role game again we need a shorter schedule. Like 48/24. Or even 36/12.

That's what I've been saying! 48/24 4ever

Brickroad
11-06-2010, 11:54 PM
Sure, as long as you're dirty.

It's impossible for the town to win one, except through blind luck or mafia fuck-ups.

Worst mafia game I've played so far. Even in M6 I had the glimmer of hope that I could win.

shivam
11-06-2010, 11:56 PM
yeah, this is the first mafia game where looking at the thread just made me angrier and angrier. to paraphrase what i said in the champaign room, role free games only work in live action mafia. otherwise, no one has any incentive to post, and the games are fully controlled by the mafia, who have both incentive to post, and the ability to discuss in private. Libra had no substantive discussion at all, and no one had any reason to do so.

widdershins
11-06-2010, 11:57 PM
It's impossible for the town to win one, except through blind luck or mafia fuck-ups.

I don't know, I think this game is proof that you're wrong. All the town would have needed to win was for me not to be in the game fucking it up.

Look at that final vote... it was me and all the morphs.

Also, apparently Luana had all three morphs sussed by the time of her night kill. She gloated.

Nodal
11-06-2010, 11:58 PM
Sure, as long as you're dirty.

It's impossible for the town to win one, except through blind luck or mafia fuck-ups.

Worst mafia game I've played so far. Even in M6 I had the glimmer of hope that I could win.

Were you playing some other game.

Meditative_Zebra
11-06-2010, 11:59 PM
We need a higher ratio of 7 colonists per morph to give the colonists a fair chance in a low information game like this. Libra only had four chances to not screw up (which was very low) and Gemini had even fewer chances at three days and had virtually no chance.

widdershins
11-07-2010, 12:00 AM
4 days isn't all that low for the size of game we were playing. Any more and we could have killed all the mafia on day one, and that'd hardly be fair.

shivam
11-07-2010, 12:01 AM
man, mazuko played all of you for fools.

Nodal
11-07-2010, 12:02 AM
man, mazuko played all of you for fools.

Excuse me.

Garrison
11-07-2010, 12:02 AM
Yeah she did. Maz did way better than she gave herself credit for.

widdershins
11-07-2010, 12:03 AM
Excuse me.

Yeah, in retrospect, your case for maz was still probably the only decent case made on anyone in the whole game. I'd almost say you should have stuck with it, but I'm sure I would've found a way to fuck that up too.

dtsund
11-07-2010, 12:05 AM
Brickroad, what everyone else said. You nearly killed one of the three, and the second one (Mazokunomiko) was a dead giveaway when she switched at the last second in favor of a transparent Morph roleclaim. You'd have had a pretty good chance.

Also, I have to say, your random.org suggestion was deeply flawed, and here's why: the Mafia only have to pretend to go along with it. They can easily say 'random.org told me to vote [insert non-Morphia here]', and the odds of lynching a Morph become quite a lot less.

Brickroad
11-07-2010, 12:06 AM
I don't know, I think this game is proof that you're wrong.

Um. The town lost.

All the town would have needed to win was for me not to be in the game fucking it up.


No, for the town to win they'd need a mobster to fuck up. In M7, none did. The mob played spectacularly.

Look at that final vote... it was me and all the morphs.

You might want to go back and re-read what caused me to change my vote at the end. I assure you it had nothing to do with brilliant detective work.

Also, apparently Luana had all three morphs sussed by the time of her night kill. She gloated.

Which is why they killed her. She has absolutely no reason to gloat.

I'll keep voting for role-less games, because it's an easy win if I'm in the mob, and I like easy wins.

shivam
11-07-2010, 12:07 AM
So i've been considering a new twist for m8, especially after reading a book about japan during the warring states period.

three factions are vying for the shogunate after the death of Oda Nobunaga--His main general Toyotomi Hideyoshi, His vassal Tokugawa Ieyasu, and His son, Oda Nobutada. Retainers of these three factions are holding secret meetings to try to sway the other groups to support their master for the seat of Shogun, and are willing to go to extreme measures to ensure that it happens.

I'm still working out the rules, but i am aiming for more horse trading, diplomacy, and jockeying for position. Teams obviously want the votes for their master, but can also win if one of the other factions loses, giving incentives to vote for folks who are on other teams.

Meditative_Zebra
11-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Well, I thought about Maz being a morph. But I couldn't give the morphs credit for being sophisticated enough to manipulate the votes so that she would have a self-saving vote. Especially not twice (unless she was the convert).

Michelle
11-07-2010, 12:08 AM
except through blind luck or mafia fuck-ups.

Brick, seriously, I fucked up at every possible opportunity. And you must have noticed because you almost killed me on Day 3! Just trust your instincts! Also, ALWAYS LISTEN TO NODAL because he is awesome.

shivam
11-07-2010, 12:09 AM
i'm so fucking mad you guys didnt realise maz was a morph right after she killed me.

Brickroad
11-07-2010, 12:09 AM
Dtsund, no shit random.org is a flawed idea. Where the fuck did anyone say it was a good idea?

Nodal
11-07-2010, 12:09 AM
Brick, seriously, I fucked up at every possible opportunity. And you must have noticed because you almost killed me on Day 3! Just trust your instincts! Also, ALWAYS LISTEN TO NODAL because he is awesome.

<3

Michelle
11-07-2010, 12:13 AM
i'm so fucking mad you guys didnt realise maz was a morph right after she killed me.

Shivam, I hope you're not really pissed, because I felt super bad about that. I wanted to apologize in a PM SO, SO BAD, but I knew it was against the rules. Kayma, too. =(

McClain
11-07-2010, 12:15 AM
I think that a "fun" game and a "good" game can be different, and I have to say that this was a goddamn fun game for me. Do I think it was balanced? Probably not. I think that a bigger pool of people with a known number of techs (and maybe mafia) would be more fair.

That said, I loved Nich's flavor text. And I had a blast with my group. I would play "vanilla" mafia again.

kaisel
11-07-2010, 12:16 AM
Sure, as long as you're dirty.

It's impossible for the town to win one, except through blind luck or mafia fuck-ups.

Worst mafia game I've played so far. Even in M6 I had the glimmer of hope that I could win.

yeah, this is the first mafia game where looking at the thread just made me angrier and angrier. to paraphrase what i said in the champaign room, role free games only work in live action mafia. otherwise, no one has any incentive to post, and the games are fully controlled by the mafia, who have both incentive to post, and the ability to discuss in private. Libra had no substantive discussion at all, and no one had any reason to do so.

I think the problem with the game is that no one tries generating discussion since everyone's suspicion-happy. I think the Town can win role-less mafia, it's difficult, but it's possible through more than just blind luck.

For example: Brickroad, your "post your PM" strategy, while metagaming could have worked. Even better tell everyone to post their PM at hour 48, or a time when the entire town agrees they can make it. Tell them to cue up so you can look at the time everyone posted, especially if you cue it up, you should be able to tell if someone took the time to copy/paste it from someone else's.

If that's too metagaming, you can do a similar experiment with voting. Tell everyone to vote, no explanations, at a certain time, if everyone votes for the same person, you can be 99% sure that guy's clean, otherwise you have to sift through the data, figure out who voted for who, what outliers there are.

The biggest stumbling block is that people think that their own solid detective work can suss out the Mafia and win, and don't try to rally the town, and don't try to make sure that everyone stays relatively motivated and involved.

It's an odd balance, and everyone really has to work to make sure the Town has a chance. It's why I keep saying that role-less/role-lite Mafia isn't a very casual game, and why playing it like one (JohnB made a comment in Gemini about how the Watchlist was a terrible idea, because it turns the game into homework, and was right about the amount of work that it would take, but if you want to win a game of this nature, you have to put that work in, as these two games showed), will almost always result in a Town loss.

fanboymaster
11-07-2010, 12:17 AM
I'd call it fair to not reveal the number of techs so long as that number isn't zero. I loved the twist in Gemini, but I feel like not enough was done to compensate in Libra given that the town had no concrete information.

dtsund
11-07-2010, 12:18 AM
I think that a "fun" game and a "good" game can be different, and I have to say that this was a goddamn fun game for me. Do I think it was balanced? Probably not. I think that a bigger pool of people with a known number of techs (and maybe mafia) would be more fair.

We should have shipped one of our Techs over to Libra; then we'd have had one each, and we might not have killed one of ours.

Brickroad
11-07-2010, 12:20 AM
Brick, seriously, I fucked up at every possible opportunity.

Um, no, when I say "fuck-up" I mean blatantly giving yourself away, or getting caught in a provable untruth by a confirmed citizen.

Your "fuck-ups" were all indistinguishable from standard town flailing. And since flailing is the only thing the town can do in an informationless game, it made you look just like a townie.

You played a great game.

And you must have noticed because you almost killed me on Day 3! Just trust your instincts!

I never suspected you for a split second. Or any other player for that matter. Trusting my instincts is how I lost M4 and M5 so gorgeously.

Also, ALWAYS LISTEN TO NODAL because he is awesome.

Nodal's first instinct in a game is usually to kill me, so fuck this.

kaisel
11-07-2010, 12:22 AM
Oh before I forget: Conversion. I still think conversion is a good idea, it might be good to have it only be an option after a certain amount of time. I was hoping that we'd get to use it later in Gemini, but we really stumbled out of the gate, and we figured the extra voting power would be more useful than an ace we could use later on. Had Umby and I not been under suspicion immediately, I would say there was a fair chance that it would have been used later.

dtsund
11-07-2010, 12:35 AM
In retrospect, us 5mm veterans should have guessed that Nich would screw with us all. He's the one who ran a 5mm game with four Mafia (who didn't know who each other were and, in fact, thought they were the only ones) and one Cop.

I'd cheerfully play another Nich game, but I'd just keep in mind that he's solidly Chaotic Evil.

McClain
11-07-2010, 12:40 AM
RE: Conversions, here's something I posted in the lounge


I find all this talk about a late conversion interesting. I had planned, if I were mafia, to bring up a late conversion in the speakeasy. The mob is small enough that you don't really lose that much of a push early, and you might be able to really screw with the town late if you convert someone who has earned trust.

widdershins
11-07-2010, 12:50 AM
RE: Conversions, here's something I posted in the lounge

Yeah, I'm pretty surprised as well. I mean, the town can't kill you in one turn, so there's no reason in my mind not to wait. I only figured the conversion happened on the last day of my game so that the mafia would have a solid voting presence, otherwise I figure why not let someone build up trust?

JohnB
11-07-2010, 12:50 AM
JohnB made a comment in Gemini about how the Watchlist was a terrible idea, because it turns the game into homework, and was right about the amount of work that it would take, but if you want to win a game of this nature, you have to put that work in, as these two games showed, will almost always result in a Town loss.

I still think it's a terrible idea, because time and time again Mafia players on this forum are, as a whole group, unwilling to sell themselves to the concept. I did my digests in M5 and I liked it, but I like playing Mafia and for me the digests are part of the fun. I don't think many/most/the majority of players feel that way because it's time consuming as fuckall, and it's not like we need to take a vote on it- a successful watchlist strategy has only been floated once.

I concede your point that it may get more people talking [but not enough to make the watchlist actually useful as intended], which was clearly the death of these games. After seeing how the subsequent days went on Gemini I didn't feel so bad about being nightkilled so early, because I probably would have been as whiny and bitchy about failing to rally up some conversation as Brick was over in Libra.

Maybe someday we can have a small side game of "hardcore" type players rather than the more casual bunch? A gentleman's agreement to not be a spaz and post only 4 times in 3 days? I dunno. I guess you couldn't or wouldn't even want to enforce this in practice, since you'd be eliminating/dictating strategies to the mafia players in that kind of game.

Merus
11-07-2010, 12:52 AM
Brick, seriously, I fucked up at every possible opportunity.

AND YOU STILL WON. Give yourself some credit. I say this as a guy who, once a game, manages to defend a Mafia player.

Michelle
11-07-2010, 12:53 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty surprised as well. I mean, the town can't kill you in one turn, so there's no reason in my mind not to wait. I only figured the conversion happened on the last day of my game so that the mafia would have a solid voting presence, otherwise I figure why not let someone build up trust?

Waiting to convert is probably the best strategy, but converting on Night 1 ended up working out for us because we needed that extra vote to keep the dead weight (me) alive. It also was nice to have an extra person in the speakeasy to discuss plans with.

JohnB
11-07-2010, 12:58 AM
Can't wait to see the Mafia Waves!

Michelle
11-07-2010, 12:59 AM
Oh, god, ours is going to be really embarrassing. :o I babbled on and on and on...

widdershins
11-07-2010, 01:00 AM
I'm terrified of seeing the champaign room wave. I can only imagine how pissed off everyone was at me.

kaisel
11-07-2010, 01:01 AM
I wonder if a simple tweak to the role-less/lite game could make it a little better:

Change it so that you can vote to lynch nobody.

That way the Mafia have to try to convince others that someone else is mafia, otherwise it's always the best case not to lynch anyone, unless someone majorly screws up.

I still think it's a terrible idea, because time and time again Mafia players on this forum are, as a whole group, unwilling to sell themselves to the concept. I did my digests in M5 and I liked it, but I like playing Mafia and for me the digests are part of the fun. I don't think many/most/the majority of players feel that way because it's time consuming as fuckall, and it's not like we need to take a vote on it- a successful watchlist strategy has only been floated once.

I concede your point that it may get more people talking [but not enough to make the watchlist actually useful as intended], which was clearly the death of these games. After seeing how the subsequent days went on Gemini I didn't feel so bad about being nightkilled so early, because I probably would have been as whiny and bitchy about failing to rally up some conversation as Brick was over in Libra.

Maybe someday we can have a small side game of "hardcore" type players rather than the more casual bunch? A gentleman's agreement to not be a spaz and post only 4 times in 3 days? I dunno. I guess you couldn't or wouldn't even want to enforce this in practice, since you'd be eliminating/dictating strategies to the mafia players in that kind of game.

Really it was my experiences in M3 that made me think a Watchlist is a good idea, that one also had a whole group of people who didn't really talk.

But I agree with your larger point, I think for a role-less game to really succeed, you need a group of people who really like digests, and are willing to read them. I like doing them, and find them useful (in M3 I tried to do the Brickroad digest, when he had like 50 more posts than a huge group of people), and you really need that level of... commitment? I guess, in a game like M7.

JohnB
11-07-2010, 01:09 AM
I wonder if a simple tweak to the role-less/lite game could make it a little better:

Change it so that you can vote to lynch nobody.

That way the Mafia have to try to convince others that someone else is mafia, otherwise it's always the best case not to lynch anyone, unless someone majorly screws up.


Brilliant. Elegant. The solution may actually be that simple.

Meditative_Zebra
11-07-2010, 01:12 AM
I wonder if a simple tweak to the role-less/lite game could make it a little better:

Change it so that you can vote to lynch nobody.

How would that work? No townie ever votes and as soon as one person votes everyone else kills him/her. Therefore nobody ever votes.

Nodal
11-07-2010, 01:17 AM
What benefit is there to the Mafia killing someone every night, and the citizens just chatting it up.

Meditative_Zebra
11-07-2010, 01:20 AM
Well that should have been obvious to anyone with a brain.

spineshark
11-07-2010, 01:26 AM
I don't know why people still suggest not killing people. As the only player to have been nightkilled by the mafia as a mafia in any of these games, I have to point out that the odds of the mafia knowingly killing each other at night are effectively null, while the town at least always has a chance at doing the right thing. Giving up any of those chances is not the right move.

kaisel
11-07-2010, 01:28 AM
Well that should have been obvious to anyone with a brain.

When you mentioned that, I uh, was kind of at a loss and thought you had seen the glaring weakness I had missed. I'm going to blame it on the lateness of the hour, or something.

What benefit is there to the Mafia killing someone every night, and the citizens just chatting it up.

They don't risk lynching people who might be innocent. It slows down the attrition rate, and lets the town gather more evidence (and I think it would make the night kills be a little more tactical, giving the town more to talk about).

It might make a little more sense if the Mafia could only night kill once someone was lynched, but that seems like a hack.

As for not killing people, there are days where you literally have no leads, and there's the sense of demoralization you get after you lynch yet another innocent person.

JohnB
11-07-2010, 01:32 AM
Eh, the group is probably right and we're just up too late and our brains aren't working properly. Not voting to lynch actively hurts the town, since it's the only way (outside of Town Drunk hijinks) to actually rid ourselves of mafia. To not use it at every given opportunity is suicidal. DUH ME. I thought for a moment that it might actually help spur on conversation, but clearly that was retarded with this group.

Nodal
11-07-2010, 01:34 AM
What evidence. There is no evidence except for voting records, and the vote would be LOL LETS NOT KILL ANYONE, and Nodal saying NO THIS IS DUMB KILL SHIVAM YOU BASTARDS.

kaisel
11-07-2010, 01:34 AM
Eh, the group is probably right and we're just up too late and our brains aren't working properly. Not voting to lynch actively hurts the town, since it's the only way (outside of Town Drunk hijinks) to actually rid ourselves of mafia. To not use it at every given opportunity is suicidal. DUH ME. I thought for a moment that it might actually help spur on conversation, but clearly that was retarded with this group.

Yeah that's probably true, not using the one weapon the Town has at every opportunity is probably a losing battle. I think the theory is right though, you need to give the Mafia a reason to take risks, otherwise you need either a really good strategy or power roles to win...

RE: Evidence

The idea was that the Mafia would be leading the lynches, but since they can night kill, they don't need to. It was a pretty glaring flaw that I managed to overlook.

chady
11-07-2010, 01:36 AM
I can see why people would find the no lynch idea appealing, like for the last day in Libra: they lynch wrong, they lose. They don't lynch anybody and they live to play (or suffer, in Brick's case) another day; but this time the pool has been cut by a player, upping the odds on nabbing a bad guy. But even that situation is kind of a glitch caused by having an even number of players. If you're on what you think is your absolute last day in an game with an odd number of players, it wouldn't matter.

Speaking of even and odd numbers, I think games with no vig should definitely start with an odd number, because it makes ties less common.

spineshark
11-07-2010, 01:38 AM
If there's no roles and no accusations, what exactly is everybody going to be talking about?

Nodal
11-07-2010, 01:43 AM
If there's no roles and no accusations, what exactly is everybody going to be talking about?

Someone would ask for a rules clarification and then I would vote to lynch them.

kaisel
11-07-2010, 01:44 AM
If there's no roles and no accusations, what exactly is everybody going to be talking about?

For me the idea was that the Mafia would have to lead the lynches, because I kinda spaced on the night kills, while the town would be trying to find Mafia (so the obvious choice wasn't "lynch the guy accusing other folks"). I see why no lynch days are a bad idea, it's more I think the best way for a role-less game to work is to give the Mafia incentive to take risks, which the only way I can think of is for every lynch, the Mafia gets a night kill, other wise they can't. But that leads to the strategy of just wearing the Mafia out by not lynching ever...

And it's late so I'm probably missing the actual point and repeating nonsense, I'll try to check in tomorrow and hopefully be thinking a little clearer.

chady
11-07-2010, 01:54 AM
Now that I've thought about it for a minute: If it were allowed in the rules, a no lynch vote would be the correct move on any day there were an even number of players, as long as you only did it once (and if there was no vigilante, you could only do it once, because it sets the number of players on an odd number). Yes, the town is missing an opportunity to kill a mafia, but they wouldn't be putting the mafia one step closer to victory while at the same time narrowing the pool of suspects.

Alpha Werewolf
11-07-2010, 01:23 AM
Now that I've thought about it for a minute: If it were allowed in the rules, a no lynch vote would be the correct move on any day there were an even number of players, as long as you only did it once (and if there was no vigilante, you could only do it once, because it sets the number of players on an odd number). Yes, the town is missing an opportunity to kill a mafia, but they wouldn't be putting the mafia one step closer to victory while at the same time narrowing the pool of suspects.
No, it wouldn't. It would be denying the town a lot of information and giving the mafia a chance to take ut a power role, or in the absence of those a smart player.


I'd like to bring up a point for discussion. In BOTH games, spectators have mentioned that they were really rooting for the town to "put it all together" in the last part of the final day. My question to the players is this: Were you attempting to figure it all out during that time, or were you hoping that your current theories were correct and waiting to see what would happen when the deadline came?

chady
11-07-2010, 01:29 AM
No, it wouldn't. It would be denying the town a lot of information and giving the mafia a chance to take ut a power role, or in the absence of those a smart player.

I guess I get the denying information thing, but it doesn't give the mafia any additional chances that they wouldn't have already had.

Alpha Werewolf
11-07-2010, 01:41 AM
I guess I get the denying information thing, but it doesn't give the mafia any additional chances that they wouldn't have already had.

I'm not saying they get additional chances. I'm saying that instead of said power role/smart guy acting or, hell, claiming because they're about to be lynched, they just die.

My point is: How the hell is losing a townie who THE MAFIA DEEMS A THREAT without doing anything in the previous day going to count as a good thing?

chady
11-07-2010, 02:19 AM
How the hell is losing a townie who THE MAFIA DEEMS A THREAT while also putting the mafia one step closer to victory via a townie lynch going to count as a good thing? That's what the mafia are looking for: X number of townie lynches. Each one made is a step closer to them winning the game.

From a purely analytical standpoint, not lynching with an even number of players narrows the pool of suspects giving the citizens a greater chance of landing on a mafia with their next lynch without putting the mafia a step closer to victory. On the flip side, it does give the mafia as a group slightly more voting power during the day, which they are usually loath to use because it ties them together.

What I'm saying is that from a mathematical perspective it's a correct play that takes away the mafia's win-on-a-tie advantage. I think that makes it a viable play in certain situations, like when your power roles are dead, or in Libra's case, non-existent ("smart" players be damned, I'll take the mathematical advantage every time).

However, none of this matters because I really don't think a "no lynch" vote should be in the rules anyway. And that's the end of what I have to say on the subject.

I guess I've been saving my theorycrafting for when I'm not playing.

Alpha Werewolf
11-07-2010, 02:31 AM
chady, I've noticed you're going off the assumption that mafia are hard to catch and/or the lynch is determined randomly - why are you talking about the odds of somebody being mafia? if you want to play this game by picking random targets, go ahead and lose. If you want to play it without analyzing people, you deserve the loss.

Brickroad
11-07-2010, 02:38 AM
I'd like to bring up a point for discussion. In BOTH games, spectators have mentioned that they were really rooting for the town to "put it all together" in the last part of the final day. My question to the players is this: Were you attempting to figure it all out during that time, or were you hoping that your current theories were correct and waiting to see what would happen when the deadline came?

I know I'm going to regret answering an Alpha comment, but from the perspective of someone in the game there
is no "putting it all together". The game is not a puzzle to solve; that implies you know what your goal is and can work it out logically.

Gemini was structured that way, because there really was a trick, and they really did come almost-close to figuring it out.

In Libra the "trick" was just finding a morph. Which, without concrete info of some kind, involves getting lucky or hoping one of the morphs fuck up. Observe that Libra did discover its gotcha -- that there was no technician. Also jobserve that did nothing at all to improve their position in the game.

Alpha Werewolf
11-07-2010, 02:43 AM
I know I'm going to regret answering an Alpha comment, but from the perspective of someone in the game there
is no "putting it all together". The game is not a puzzle to solve; that implies you know what your goal is and can work it out logically.

Gemini was structured that way, because there really was a trick, and they really did come almost-close to figuring it out.

In Libra the "trick" was just finding a morph. Which, without concrete info of some kind, involves getting lucky or hoping one of the morphs fuck up. Observe that Libra did discover its gotcha -- that there was no technician. Also jobserve that did nothing at all to improve their position in the game.
Yeah, I understand that. That's not what I was asking about (well, it is on Gemini, but that's because it was irrevocably tied to winning or losing the game due to chady).
I was reffering to this post when I said "put it all together":
Haven't you looked at the champagne room? There were five or six of us all glued to our monitors in the last half hour rooting for widds to put it together, because if he switched his vote, Vorpal was going down and the other two had put themselves far enough out there that they'd be next.
And I wanted to know if anybody at all was thinking "geez I just need to figure this thing out" or rather if you were all "well I've placed my bets, let's hope I'm right".

spineshark
11-07-2010, 02:51 AM
chady, I've noticed you're going off the assumption that mafia are hard to catch and/or the lynch is determined randomly - why are you talking about the odds of somebody being mafia? if you want to play this game by picking random targets, go ahead and lose. If you want to play it without analyzing people, you deserve the loss.
Whether or not it's random is irrelevant. The Mafia aren't going to waste kills on each other. Only kills that aren't unanimously determined by them have are an actual opportunity to kill them.
What I'm saying is that from a mathematical perspective it's a correct play that takes away the mafia's win-on-a-tie advantage.
Yeah, but this isn't anything more than an unfortunate quirk of certain setups. It's not a basis for any sort of general strategy.

Brickroad
11-07-2010, 02:54 AM
I spent much of the day Friday scouring the thread looking for the magic rules twist that would help me win, convinced that if I could find it we wouldn't end up like Gemini.

Colossal waste of time. But other than that there was nothing to "put together". The people in the champagne room only could root for it because they knew the solution. I remember a similar sensation watching M3.

chady
11-07-2010, 03:03 AM
chady, I've noticed you're going off the assumption that mafia are hard to catch and/or the lynch is determined randomly - why are you talking about the odds of somebody being mafia? if you want to play this game by picking random targets, go ahead and lose. If you want to play it without analyzing people, you deserve the loss.

Hey look, it's a bunch of words I didn't say, all suddenly appearing in my mouth. How'd they get there?

Of course analyzing other players and their votes/"suspicions" is enormously important. That's why I spent most of my time in Gemini doing that and combining it with my scans. But is it easier to analyze 8 people to find 3 mafia, or only 7? (HINT: THE ANSWER IS 7)

The math is a constant. Lucky for you, it helps you whether or not you believe in it.

spineshark
11-07-2010, 04:57 AM
Serious post-mortem:

First off, this was definitely the most fun I've had in any of the games. I told myself I was going to try to enjoy this, and I did. I was pretty bummed about the ending, not because I thought we'd win, but seeing so much go down when I couldn't do anything sucked.

Was it fair? Well, I wouldn't say so, and I doubt any of the winners would either. I don't agree with Brick overall, but on a basic level it's not arguable that poor information is ridiculously helpful to the minority. In the Thing, the town is capable of knowing WAY WAY too much, while on Libra (and really, even moreso on Gemini) the total blackout was a one-way ticket to getting screwed by the rules.

Still, what the hell is "fair"? Does that mean the better team should always win? Usually? Equal odds for town and Mafia? (#Town)/(#Players) of the time? These setups were clearly NOT more unfair than M1, 2, or 6, in all of which the Mafia seemingly couldn't win even with phenomenal skill or luck; I'm not sure what Vorpal meant about a simple method that beats M4 (or if he wasn't just making shit up in the first place), and M5 is hard to tell since the circumstances came out so unfortunately for the town but I think given the proof of the Cipher role in M6 it probably favored the town pretty significantly as well. Still, both games this time knew so much less about the game they were playing than any of the previous rounds. I would never do that again in a game like that.

As for the games being too quiet? I don't buy that at all. These was the smallest individual games yet aside from the Thing, and M4L had twice the voting periods of Libra and Gemini combined (and a corresponding lack of people dying). Yes, it was nearly impossible to get anything out of certain people, which really didn't make the game any easier, but I would hardly consider that a failing of the game itself...

Finally, the games really are what you make of them. I'd say Nodal got screwed more than anyone on Libra except Luana (who hasn't chimed in yet...), and he still loved it. Obviously if your criteria is "winning" then you're going to be harder to please. And I'm not stupid enough to think this style works for everyone, since of course it doesn't. But I think there can still be a place for this type of game.

Paul le Fou
11-07-2010, 05:55 AM
I wonder if a simple tweak to the role-less/lite game could make it a little better:

Change it so that you can vote to lynch nobody.

That way the Mafia have to try to convince others that someone else is mafia, otherwise it's always the best case not to lynch anyone, unless someone majorly screws up.

Absolutely not. Do you know how long the game would last with people sitting around, thumbs up their asses? Worst part would be that without the impetus of a necessary lynch hanging over our heads, people would sit back and wait for someone to say something incriminating. Which would never happen. Conversation - indeed, having anything to talk about - would dry up like spit on asphalt. Toss in what everyone else says about sitting back and waiting for them to kill us while we don't even take a swipe at them...

Brickroad
11-07-2010, 06:09 AM
Still, what the hell is "fair"?

This is the easiest question to answer ever: a ruleset in which every player has a chance to win.

I'd say M2, M4, M5, M6, and M7G were all fair, or close enough. M5 and M6 were both weird anomalies, but the rules as written were certainly winnable by either side. (As evidenced by the rulesets being virtually identical, with each faction winning once.)

M1, M3 and M7L were way too skewed. In all three games the losing faction played well, but never advanced one single step. I meant what I said about not having any bad players townside in Libra. It made Day One particularly harrowing for me, not having an easy target to kill!

And I'm not trying to slight our morph players here, not in the slightest. All the morphs had to do to win is not fuck up, but not fucking up is hard work. It's just... not as hard as what the town has to do, which is essentially divine magical information from nowhere.

The issue we're having isn't unfair rulesets, but rulesets in which the team that gets the early momentum wins. Have we had any close games? It seems like it's always one team or the other getting streamrolled. Sometimes teams deserve that; the M5 town was pretty much just a group of saggy bitches all the way through. But we were fighting tooth and nail in Libra. There were no slack-jaws or hangers-on. The unfun part wasn't the actual interactions in the thread (those are always fun!), but the sinking feeling that there was no possible way to win.

Meditative_Zebra
11-07-2010, 07:05 AM
I had a lot of fun playing this game, but I do think that Brick is right that the margin of error for the townies was smaller than it was for the morphs. If we had had another day or two we might have been able to figure things out. If we had voted for my pick on the last day (Garrison) I still don't know if we would have had enough evidence to lead us to any other morphs. Maybe this is just my failing as a player but it does seem like the margin for error was very slim.

This is not in any way to blame Nich, who I think ran an awesome game, or to say that he did anything but his best to set up a fair and fun game for us. But I do think that we learned from M7 that there are some tweaks we should make for future games.

dwolfe
11-07-2010, 07:49 AM
So i've been considering a new twist for m8, especially after reading a book about japan during the warring states period.

three factions are vying for the shogunate after the death of Oda Nobunaga--His main general Toyotomi Hideyoshi, His vassal Tokugawa Ieyasu, and His son, Oda Nobutada. Retainers of these three factions are holding secret meetings to try to sway the other groups to support their master for the seat of Shogun, and are willing to go to extreme measures to ensure that it happens.

I'm still working out the rules, but i am aiming for more horse trading, diplomacy, and jockeying for position. Teams obviously want the votes for their master, but can also win if one of the other factions loses, giving incentives to vote for folks who are on other teams.

Um...that is my old Triple Triad three factioned game, with a cool setting. :)

Please, feel free to pull up the old rules, we actually did a lot of discussion on balance and win conditions back then.

VorpalEdge
11-07-2010, 07:51 AM
I'd say M2, M4, M5, M6, and M7G were all fair, or close enough.

The mafia in M2 was screwed exactly as bad as it was in M1.

Also, the M4 strat. I found something that looked really cool at first, but it turned out to not be able to actually win, and that it just treaded water for a while until the Things won because, while they were converting 1 a day and losing 1 a day guaranteed, the conversion also lowered town numbers and eventually they would fall below the Thing numbers. It would've been nice if it worked though. :(

[and part of me hoped that one of you guys would find a better way]