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PrivateJoker
09-13-2013, 02:10 PM
Calling my arguement an appeal to common practice is nothing more than an attempt to undermine me. I've explained many times why it's not fun or balanced, but nobody seems to believe me or care. The fact that I reinforced that arguement by saying "other communities have used them, and they agree with me" does not reduce it to a logical fallacy.

aturtledoesbite
09-13-2013, 02:11 PM
Mogri, if Loki gets lynched and has his/her identity revealed, can the other players still vote to lynch Loki (for reals this time) on a future day?

I would ask the same for Baldr, but really, who would vote to lynch a confirmed town?

Destil
09-13-2013, 02:16 PM
The logical fallacy Wormrider pointed out is that TT mafia always convert at the first possible opportunity under the impression that doing so is optimal (i'd agree, it's minimal risk, but you may get more reward saving it for later when the game's smaller and you get more swing from it).

PrivateJoker
09-13-2013, 02:33 PM
That's not the fallacy that was being pointed out. That was a tangent.

Rufferto
09-13-2013, 02:41 PM
Calling my arguement an appeal to common practice is nothing more than an attempt to undermine me. I've explained many times why it's not fun or balanced, but nobody seems to believe me or care. The fact that I reinforced that arguement by saying "other communities have used them, and they agree with me" does not reduce it to a logical fallacy.

Fun's not really something you can objectively measure though. You gave reasons for why you don't like conversion as a mechanic. Others have disagreed with your reasoning.

You: Conversion sucks. That's why no one liked the thing games.
Others: We liked the thing games.
You: Conversion roles suck.
Falselogic: I like conversion roles.

Like... it's not even an attempt to undermine you. People just have different opinions on conversion roles. It hardly matters that other communities hate conversion roles if this community likes them.

WormRider
09-13-2013, 02:44 PM
It's both, actually!

The fallacies do not refer to what you're trying to argue for; they refer to how you're making that argument. As a result, you can try to argue for a completely reasonable point ("Homicide is bad") and still commits a logical fallacy, such as ad hominem ("You think killing people is a good thing? You're sick and disgusting.")

The fact that you think "everyone else does it" reinforces your point is a logical fallacy, and thus should be pointed out. It means that your argument isn't as strong as you thought it was, and also isn't as convincing as you thought it was for those who see through the fallacy.

Thinking that someone points out a fallacy in your argument is trying to undermine you, rather than undermine your argument, is a rather egocentric point of view. Arguments should be scrutinized, and the established fallacies exist not so that people can make fun of each other's logical ineptitude, but so people are more aware of what logical mistakes they're making when arguing for a position. As I said, a fallacy does not invalidate your argument, but it strongly suggests that you should reevaluate. After all, people should argue to figure out what's right, not to prove that whatever position they're already holding is right --- and to ignore mistakes in your argument when others point them out suggests that you're doing the latter and not the former. If that's the case, then the argument is clearly pointless since no one will convince anyone else.

gahitsu
09-13-2013, 02:47 PM
Guys, you do realize that PrivateJoker is trolling, right? And has done this several times in other places on the forum? This is just not an especially productive conversation to have, is all I'm saying.

Rufferto
09-13-2013, 02:57 PM
Guys, you do realize that PrivateJoker is trolling, right? And has done this several times in other places on the forum? This is just not an especially productive conversation to have, is all I'm saying.

nahhh. He doesn't read like a troll to me. Trust me, I'm an expert.

PrivateJoker
09-13-2013, 03:20 PM
I am, in fact, not trolling.

Egarwaen
09-13-2013, 03:26 PM
On a tangentially related note, it seems to me that the practice of using conversion powers on the earliest opportunity possible is a leftover from when the power is tied to a particular mafia member and the mafia risks losing it if said member dies. In a game where the mafia have communal conversion power, I'd think that waiting to convert later is a better course of action.

In this case, in fact, optimal mafia play is quite obvious:

1. Hunt for the infiltrator with your inspector.
2. After day 1, only kill people you've inspected and found not to be infiltrator.
3. When you find the infiltrator, do your best to keep them alive.
4. Convert them at the end of the game as a winning move, or once the inspector is dead, or once it's clear that you've lost to fuck a member of the town out of their victory.

PrivateJoker
09-13-2013, 03:36 PM
In this case, in fact, optimal mafia play is quite obvious:

1. Hunt for the infiltrator with your inspector.
2. After day 1, only kill people you've inspected and found not to be infiltrator.
3. When you find the infiltrator, do your best to keep them alive.
4. Convert them at the end of the game as a winning move, or once the inspector is dead, or once it's clear that you've lost to fuck a member of the town out of their victory.

That right there is the issue. This summarizes it completely.

Destil
09-13-2013, 03:57 PM
That's suboptimal. I would argue that as long as you have a conversion in your pocket you're never in an assured loss state.

Also you're trying to tweak balance way too granularity. People randomly lose/die because of things out of their control, it's just the way the game works. Balance is important on a macro scale far more than a mico scale in mafia (not that micro isn't important because it affects macro, but you're worried over something that will hurt one player, at random, in a small percentage of games).

Solitayre
09-13-2013, 04:02 PM
Look at it this way; if the Sinistrals succeed in converting you, you were going to die anyway.

So, you can keep playing, except for the other team.

Some people would probably prefer to keep playing as opposed to dying. But others might be okay with dying, if their team goes on to win. So I suppose it's a matter of preference.

Destil
09-13-2013, 04:06 PM
If you want a fix there it is: the infiltrator chooses to die as town or live as mafia when they're targeted.

WormRider
09-13-2013, 04:07 PM
If you want a fix there it is: the infiltrator chooses to die as town or live as mafia when they're targeted.

I was just about to say that. It's flavorful too. Tada!

Now everyone's happy.

Solitayre
09-13-2013, 04:16 PM
I thought about that, but that hurts the mafia instead, and messes with the numbers game.

Tricky.

will
09-13-2013, 04:17 PM
It's both, actually!

The fallacies do not refer to what you're trying to argue for; they refer to how you're making that argument. As a result, you can try to argue for a completely reasonable point ("Homicide is bad") and still commits a logical fallacy, such as ad hominem ("You think killing people is a good thing? You're sick and disgusting.")

The fact that you think "everyone else does it" reinforces your point is a logical fallacy, and thus should be pointed out. It means that your argument isn't as strong as you thought it was, and also isn't as convincing as you thought it was for those who see through the fallacy.

Thinking that someone points out a fallacy in your argument is trying to undermine you, rather than undermine your argument, is a rather egocentric point of view. Arguments should be scrutinized, and the established fallacies exist not so that people can make fun of each other's logical ineptitude, but so people are more aware of what logical mistakes they're making when arguing for a position. As I said, a fallacy does not invalidate your argument, but it strongly suggests that you should reevaluate. After all, people should argue to figure out what's right, not to prove that whatever position they're already holding is right --- and to ignore mistakes in your argument when others point them out suggests that you're doing the latter and not the former. If that's the case, then the argument is clearly pointless since no one will convince anyone else.

A'course, just because something is listed as a fallacy doesn't mean it's bad evidence, just that it's not a good foundation for a syllogism. Often, "many people do x" is a good argument to do x, when there's some indication that there's a connection between x being a good idea and other people doing it.

aturtledoesbite
09-13-2013, 04:22 PM
A'course, just because something is listed as a fallacy doesn't mean it's bad evidence, just that it's not a good foundation for a syllogism. Often, "many people do x" is a good argument to do x, when there's some indication that there's a connection between x being a good idea and other people doing it.

I think you're confusing cause and effect. Doing X is usually not good because many people do X, but many people usually do X because doing X is good.

The trick, though, is figuring out why doing X is good. And sometimes, simply the fact that it's a popular thing to do *is* what makes it good. But that is incredibly uncommon (usually only comes up in a "together we stand, divided we fall" sort of thing).

botticus
09-13-2013, 06:27 PM
That right there is the issue. This summarizes it completely.

You really don't want to play an Organization game.

Mogri
09-13-2013, 07:11 PM
Mogri, if Loki gets lynched and has his/her identity revealed, can the other players still vote to lynch Loki (for reals this time) on a future day?

I would ask the same for Baldr, but really, who would vote to lynch a confirmed town?

Loki and Baldr may not be killed. Consider this an official errata; if Loki is targeted by Ull, he's treated as if lynched.

Falselogic
09-13-2013, 08:20 PM
I'm going to give it 48 hours for more questions and pitches and then make a poll.

That work for everyone?

Gerad
09-13-2013, 08:25 PM
Fine with me.

PrivateJoker
09-13-2013, 10:54 PM
You really don't want to play an Organization game.

Actually I think Organization is the most interesting game format you guys have run. It's full of shenanigans, yes, but the shenanigans affect pretty much everyone equally. The only thing that sucks is that the Infiltrator draws the short end of the stick, and stands little chance of lasting long, let alone winning.

Solitayre
09-14-2013, 10:20 AM
I've said before I think I could win as Infiltrator! Not that I think I necessarily would but I definitely think it's possible!

Brickroad
09-14-2013, 10:46 AM
I'd be happy to hear ideas on how to make the game more Infiltrator-friendly.

Solitayre
09-14-2013, 02:35 PM
I think someone (Egarwaen maybe? I don't remember) mentioned making the number of snitches on the ship be limited. This prevents just snitching everyone and finding the infiltrator through brute force. At the very least it makes it a little harder to catch the infiltrator in a bluff.

Hell, maybe just eliminate them all together.

Destil
09-14-2013, 02:42 PM
Infiltrator would basically always win without snitches, unless something completely random kills him or her.

Snitch costs should simply scale based on how many you hire in one night. One costs $4, two cost $8, three cost $16, four cost $32, five cost $64, six cost $128, seven $256.

EDIT: I also want to see a 'stack-o-snitches' as an item that shows up at auction, which would be three snitches you could then use for free on any subsequent nights.

Brickroad
09-14-2013, 02:55 PM
One thought I had:

You hire snitches from a cabal of assassins. Instead of money, they ask you to eliminate targets.

Hire a snitch, and you get a randomly-selected still-living player added to your win condition.

dtsund
09-14-2013, 03:21 PM
I don't like eliminating money from the snitches altogether; it'd make auctions a lot more all-in oriented than they already are. And that's a really stiff cost.

I do like the idea of imposing a harsher penalty like that, though.

EDIT: Perhaps the "snitch" is a mad scientist who wants secret Organization R&D tech and will give information in exchange for a still-usable item?

spineshark
09-14-2013, 03:34 PM
that would actually be pretty cool considering how many near-useless items are in the game

and it would slow down the snitch usage especially on the first night

PrivateJoker
09-14-2013, 03:36 PM
If everyone just outed their targets in a massclaim, they wouldn't even need snitches. Unless there's a way to seemlessly integrate the Infiltrator into the target chain, he'll never be safe.

It would probably be more balanced to do just that. Put him in the target chain. Some lucky dog will be the guy who's target is the infiltrator, which is technically everyone's target. That guy will still have to live to the end of the game, which seems considerably more fair than making the infiltrator live to the end of the game with a giant target on his back, that can be revealed through little more than a massclaim.

If winning just by surviving seems too easy for the infiltrator (I can see that arguement, since he's essentially a lone mafia with no connections or goals other than survival) then give him something to do. Give him a condition like "must make X number of deals" or maybe even "ensure that X player survives along with you!". I actually like the idea of making him act as a protector to somebody, because that kind of forces him into a "mafiosi" mindset that can allow players to read him, and catch him without mechanics. Just a few things to think about.

dtsund
09-14-2013, 03:38 PM
If everyone just outed their targets in a massclaim, they wouldn't even need snitches. Unless there's a way to seemlessly integrate the Infiltrator into the target chain, he'll never be safe.

Things that will readily happen in an Organization game: not that.

Destil
09-14-2013, 03:39 PM
Things that will readily happen in an Organization a mafia game: nothing that requires all players to be in agreement about an optional move and participate in a specific plan on day one.

It would probably be more balanced to do just that. Put him in the target chain. Some lucky dog will be the guy who's target is the infiltrator, which is technically everyone's target. That guy will still have to live to the end of the game, which seems considerably more fair than making the infiltrator live to the end of the game with a giant target on his back, that can be revealed through little more than a massclaim.



That's a terrible idea, then the infiltrator just becomes a random 'fuck you, you lose' to everyone else because there's no way to actually find them.

PrivateJoker
09-14-2013, 03:40 PM
Things that will readily happen in an Organization game: not that.

If the game was nearing the end, and the infiltrator hasn't been caught yet? Why wouldn't it? The infiltrator is the only person who stands to benefit from it not happening. It's in the best interest of every other player to do so, and there's no way to stop them from doing it.

Destil
09-14-2013, 03:41 PM
If you want that to happen the game rules have to make it happen, not the players, because otherwise it won't. Unless the rules just put all the targets out in the open day one it won't happen.

dtsund
09-14-2013, 03:42 PM
If the game was nearing the end, and the infiltrator hasn't been caught yet? Why wouldn't it?

At that point, most of the players are dead and unable to reveal their targets. What you said requires everyone to be up-front about their targets at the start of the game.

PrivateJoker
09-14-2013, 03:51 PM
That's a terrible idea, then the infiltrator just becomes a random 'fuck you, you lose' to everyone else because there's no way to actually find them.

That's why you give him something to do that makes it so you can find him. If he's doing stuff besides trying to kill one target and get out alive, then you've found the infiltrator. By your logic, mafia are all impossible to find unless you have an investigator. Make him act like a mafiosi by givign him extra win conditions, and he'll be forced to play differently than everyone else. Then it's a matter of "finding the guy who is acting fishy" instead of "abuse mechanics by endlessly using snitches until he's revealed through no fault of his own."

At that point, most of the players are dead and unable to reveal their targets. What you said requires everyone to be up-front about their targets at the start of the game.
Ok, true enough.

Egarwaen
09-14-2013, 06:05 PM
A) limit the number of snitches that can be hired per night. You can spend extra on a snitch; allocation starts from the person who spent the most and works down.

B) multiple snitches going after the same person "trip over" each other. One is selected at random to produce results; all others fail.

EDIT: FWIW, I'd totally be willing to help write/run an organization game.

Solitayre
09-14-2013, 06:07 PM
B) multiple snitches going after the same person "trip over" each other. One is selected at random to produce results; all others fail.

I don't like this one.

Egarwaen
09-14-2013, 06:11 PM
I don't like this one.

As the Master of the Organization, how do you feel about "snitch bidding?"

Solitayre
09-14-2013, 06:16 PM
Why am I the master? :p

I think snitch bidding might be the best way to resolve the snitch dilemma, as long as there are a limited number of snitches available each night.

I still say the game is doable with no snitches, though. It would be harder, but I hardly think it's completely unwinnable for the agents.

Egarwaen
09-14-2013, 06:23 PM
Why am I the master? :p

I think snitch bidding might be the best way to resolve the snitch dilemma, as long as there are a limited number of snitches available each night.

I still say the game is doable with no snitches, though. It would be harder, but I hardly think it's completely unwinnable for the agents.

As suggested above, the snitch functionality could be turned into an auction item?

will
09-14-2013, 07:32 PM
I think you're confusing cause and effect.

Nah, it's like this: if we can assume that [x is good -> people do x], then [people do x] should increase our probability estimate for [x is good]. Like if I notice a lot of lion hair all over my couch, then it's more likely that there's a lion in the apartment (even though lion hair doesn't cause lions). It doesn't work as a logical syllogism, but it definitely works in practical applications and probabilistic analysis.

aturtledoesbite
09-14-2013, 07:48 PM
probability estimate

And this is why you never make statements saying that things are good because people do them. Probability is, by definition, impossible to be used as fact because it isn't guaranteed to cause the same output given the same input.

Mogri
09-14-2013, 09:38 PM
Probability is, by definition, impossible to be used as fact because it isn't guaranteed to cause the same output given the same input.

Even ignoring the trivial cases of P=1 and P=0, that's not true. A coin toss is extremely reliable: it will either give you heads or tails (with a theoretical 50% odds of each). It will never give you a different, unexpected output. Same with a die or anything else that you can build a probabilistic model for.

WormRider
09-14-2013, 11:45 PM
I think the important thing is to remember that logical fallacies are just guidelines. So I'd agree with your statement that being listed as a fallacy doesn't automatically make something bad evidence. I'm not sure whether I agree that "most people do X" is often a good evidence for doing X though. I'd say, and this is probably more in line with the probability thing, that "most people do X" is an indication that there may be good arguments for doing X. But it's certainly not a rationale, and until you can find actual evidence for why doing X is good or not good, it's inconclusive. It also depends a lot on what X is too, of course. If X is "support renewable energy tax credit" then it's pretty irrelevant what most people think about X (unless you are a politician, but we're operating on the assumption that we're trying to do the right thing here!). If, on the other hand, X is "drive on the right", then common practice is clearly relevant because the fact that most people drive on the right is exactly why you should also do it.

PrivateJoker
09-14-2013, 11:55 PM
Well in his case "Most peopel do X" is referring to communities that have played this game a lot longer than you, and therefore have more experience with "what is good and what isn't". I also have played with them, and while I'm not, personally, as experienced as they are, I can tell you they aren't dumb. They also have a very tight knit community, and I've spent a great deal of time with them, so it's not like my experience with them is limited to mafia. Not all of them agree that "recruiting roles are dumb", but most of them do.

WormRider
09-15-2013, 12:30 AM
Well in his case "Most peopel do X" is referring to communities that have played this game a lot longer than you, and therefore have more experience with "what is good and what isn't". I also have played with them, and while I'm not, personally, as experienced as they are, I can tell you they aren't dumb. They also have a very tight knit community, and I've spent a great deal of time with them, so it's not like my experience with them is limited to mafia. Not all of them agree that "recruiting roles are dumb", but most of them do.

Well I hate to be that guy (or gal!) that keeps calling out one fallacy after another, but this is appealing to authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority). In addition to that, it's also appealing to false authority, because experts in other mafia communities are not experts in this mafia community.

People in this mafia community have voiced their opinion (conversion roles are fine) and their rationale (people have fun playing conversion role even when they lose, so we consider these roles "good" because they're enjoyable, even though "good" may not mean here what it means in other communities). It seems you're ignoring arguments against your position which, as I said, makes this a pointless argument. This is why most people have stop engaging in this pointless argument, and I guess it would be wise for me to do the same.

McClain
09-15-2013, 12:32 AM
Yeah, we like playing mafia our own silly ways, even if it isn't optimal. You'll find that trying to guide us by what other communities do will most likely just get you backlash (and probably lynched in game).

PrivateJoker
09-15-2013, 12:38 AM
I guess I just don't see why you guys would want to purposefully include stuff that people (not even just me, there are people here in this community who said "I agree with Joker on this") have said they don't enjoy. I kind of doubt that the people who are in favor of conversion roles love them so much that they would refuse to play the game without it, so why not just take it out for the people who don't like it? Does it really hurt anything? Why would you want to just leave it at "Well we like it, so if you don't, you can just fuck off." Why would you not want to appeal to a larger playerbase?

Destil
09-15-2013, 01:54 AM
You don't like something in a pitch, sit out a game. It's that simple.

PrivateJoker
09-15-2013, 02:10 AM
Except that for me, it means "sit out for pretty much all the games".

I'm not going to play in games Sol is in. We live together, and can see each other's computer screens pretty much all the time. Even if we're not being nosey, just seeing that a quicktopic is open on a fellow player's screen is more information than we're supposed to have.

So basically, unless Sol is hosting, I'm not playing. He won't have a role, and it won't matter that he knows my role. I don't need to play so badly that I'd make him sit out, since I have another forum where I can, and do, play. (though it's been down from a DDoS attack for the past few weeks, which kinda sucks, cuz I'm in the middle of 2 games over there)

So I'm pretty bias to what setup I'm voting for, but I don't want it to suck.

Yimothy
09-15-2013, 06:28 AM
I don't think the setup sucks, and your chances of rolling the conversion are slim anyway, but if it bothers you so much maybe ask Sol if he'd be happy for you to put it up modified so you don't hate it as a pitch to be run by him if it wins?

I don't really think it's that bad to lose after playing well. It's fun to win and less fun to lose, but to me the thing that's most fun is trying to win. The actual outcome doesn't matter all that much.

Also, if you can't avoid seeing Sol's screen, maybe you shouldn't be playing games he runs anyway?

Eden
09-15-2013, 10:12 AM
I find it a little telling that the response to Joker's objection is basically one or more of "Nuh uh!", "Love it or leave it", or "let me expound in great length on this tangential observation you made that isn't critical to the argument you're actually making".

I don't see the problem with making the sleeper aware of his/her status as sleeper. The only thing that's been brought up in support of keeping the sleeper unaware of his/her status is flavor, something I personally find unconvincing anyway because the flavor aspect of the role is already drastically impacted by the fact that everyone knows there is a sleeper. It seems more than a little arbitrary to say that it's acceptable to run counter to story mechanics on the crucial point of the good guys knowing the sleeper even exists, but that we're crossing the line by having the sleeper be self-aware.

Rufferto
09-15-2013, 10:42 AM
Yeah I don't really mind if the role is altered either. I'm pretty sure most of the objections stem from the way joker framed his argument. If he had just said, "I don't like this mechanic. Can we change it?" People probably wouldn't have gotten so up on arms about it. By saying, "This mechanic is bad and not fun and no one else likes it. Therefore you should eliminate it.", people are going to more readily disagree because they find it fun/like it. It seems joker was arguing it more subjectively, which is why he thought Wormrider was undermining him. However, in this situation it would have made more sense to use more personal language IE "I don't think it's a fun mechanic", "I don't like it", etc. Because it's much harder to argue against how someone feels about something than an argument presented as objective fact.

Eddie
09-15-2013, 10:49 AM
Except that for me, it means "sit out for pretty much all the games".

As a fan of D&D and of Order of the Stick (http://www.giantitp.com/index.html), I'm on their forums a decent amount arguing about Elf Games.

If people remember some of the D&D threads on here, I am not a fan of 3rd Edition/Pathfinder, for various reasons. I am, however, a fan of 4th Edition, and I run a bi-weekly game of it with a group of people who also enjoy it. The 4th Edition forum on the GitP forums has less users than the 3.5/Pathfinder one. A lot less users. Like, 1/20th of the traffic. If popularity on the GitP forums was any indication (and it's not really, but that is a different conversation), than clearly, the edition I play has lost the popularity wars.

I could go and piss in the 3.5 forum about things that make their edition suck. I could talk about the martial/caster power divide, the inane way that monsters are stated, and how system mastery has spiraled out of control. (They would counter that the edition I like is a MMORPG in book form, where all PCs are alike and how the system encourages the DM to cheat).

My point in this analogy is that just because I like my Elf Games a certain way, doesn't mean that my way is the only way people can or should enjoy them. Clearly, some people don't have a big problem with a conversion role (myself being one of them), but that doesn't make them wrong. It just makes them like something you don't.

I would suggest that conversion powers are not the norm for TT games. They show up every so often, but they are not an auto-include in our games. We all have our breaking points regarding which games we're willing to play in. I love the Organization games, but I know some players are turned off by the fact that the real game plays out during the Night Phases, and they just don't have the stamina to PM 20+ times during one night. That's okay! Because not every game is an Organization one. Similarly, not every TT Mafia game has a conversion role. So if there's nothing on offer for you this round, just wait until the next one.

(Or pitch something yourself, and see if someone else would run it.)

I don't know what to tell you about living with Sol, but I would suggest that altering the games that people here like to meet your living conditions is not in the cards. Might I suggest that you alter your furniture arrangements to prevent accidental spying?

Nodal
09-15-2013, 10:51 AM
Nobody wants to play Batman Mafia.

botticus
09-15-2013, 11:35 AM
The problem with the Sleeper knowing their role is that they will be playing suboptimally (unless they do what I figure would be the case where they didn't know: play good town). And that seems not fun. Before they are converted (which could be the entire game!) they will be hedging their play to try to ensure if they are converted, they will have a team still capable of winning around them. And if they are never converted (lynched, survive the whole game), they have hurt their win condition because they've played poor town.

So for me, I'd say it stays as written or it's removed (or Sol can continue to evaluate the feasibility of letting the Sleeper choose the result - die as town/live as mafia).

Eden
09-15-2013, 12:29 PM
@botticus, I'm not really sure how having less information leads to someone playing more optimally than having more information. Of course more information doesn't guarantee more optimal play, but more information, everything else the same, shouldn't mean less optimal play.

I suspect we might be coming at this differently, though, likely centered on "optimal play." I'm using it here from the standpoint of the sleeper him/herself. If you mean from the standpoint of the town at large, sure, but I don't see where that's important -- if a player is playing to win, s/he is playing to win for him/herself, not for a specific faction.

I like the idea of letting the sleeper choose though. That seems to be the best solution to the whole problem: if you're the sleeper and you think not being notified you're the sleeper is bullshit, then you can just choose to be killed like you would anyway with a mafia hit, and if you like the idea of "Surprise you're mafia now!" you can become mafia. Since you get to choose sides your chance of victory will necessarily not be hurt, which I think was Joker's main objection.

---

Also I don't see where Joker is telling everyone that they're all wrong and their way of playing is bad and they should be forced to change their ways. He's a prospective participant, just like everyone else, with a specific idea about one role in the game, just like everyone else, who would like to see this idea in the game, just like everyone else, and is arguing to persuade the group to adopt his idea, just like everyone else. That in no way makes an absolute normative judgment about the other styles of play, just a relative one that everyone arguing in opposition to one another makes (that his/her side is superior). There wouldn't be an issue at all except that the ideas being discussed here are necessarily exclusive (the sleeper can't both know and not know s/he is a sleeper), which means one side has to be chosen.

Brickroad
09-15-2013, 01:50 PM
I would suggest that conversion powers are not the norm for TT games. They show up every so often, but they are not an auto-include in our games. We all have our breaking points regarding which games we're willing to play in. I love the Organization games, but I know some players are turned off by the fact that the real game plays out during the Night Phases, and they just don't have the stamina to PM 20+ times during one night. That's okay! Because not every game is an Organization one. Similarly, not every TT Mafia game has a conversion role. So if there's nothing on offer for you this round, just wait until the next one.

Eddie bringin' buckets of wisdom all up ins

Solitayre
09-15-2013, 01:52 PM
I would actually like it if everyone gave opinions on conversion roles.

Brickroad
09-15-2013, 01:54 PM
I would actually like it if everyone gave opinions on conversion roles.

I doubt I would play a game with them because I don't like them.

Solitayre
09-15-2013, 01:57 PM
How many other people feel this way? (Besides Egar/Joker?)

Eddie
09-15-2013, 02:16 PM
I am neutral about conversion roles. Their presence does not sway my like/dislike of the pitch at all.

Gerad
09-15-2013, 02:33 PM
I am neutral about conversion roles. Their presence does not sway my like/dislike of the pitch at all.

Ditto here.

Destil
09-15-2013, 02:49 PM
I like them if they're balanced, but they're hard to balance.

gahitsu
09-15-2013, 02:52 PM
I am neutral about conversion roles. Their presence does not sway my like/dislike of the pitch at all.

Same. I play in Bronto Werewolf, so I personally know they're fun (or at least fine) even if they're not 100% balanced, but it's not like I'm super excited about them either. Your pitch sounds fine as is, Soli.

Solitayre
09-15-2013, 02:55 PM
I don't know, enough people have pretty much said "I won't play in such a game" that I'm thinking about pulling it. I don't want to exclude people.

It also bothers me that being a dick has become a big enough part of our game mentality that saving a conversion to screw someone out of victory is considered a tactic.

Raven
09-15-2013, 02:58 PM
I'm ambivalent toward role conversion in general. Like it particularly in this game b/c flavor-related reason.

Don't like the idea of having a Sleeper and him/her being told about it. Feels like it defeats the whole point.

Yeah I don't really mind if the role is altered either. I'm pretty sure most of the objections stem from the way joker framed his argument. If he had just said, "I don't like this mechanic. Can we change it?" People probably wouldn't have gotten so up on arms about it.

Yeah, this exactly, have to admit I'm kind of annoyed by the tone despite his argument being completely valid in subjective sense.

That said, the "sit out the game if you don't like this particular mechanic" is a bit unfair in this particular case. If you don't like the conversion mechanic in Thing or nighttime PM in Organization, then yeah, you really have no business bitching about them; they're like the entire nature of those games. The Sleeper mechanic in this game is just an auxiliary mechanic at best, strip it away and you'd still have a solid core mechanic. I'd vote for just removing it altogether.

Gerad
09-15-2013, 03:04 PM
It also bothers me that being a dick has become a big enough part of our game mentality that saving a conversion to screw someone out of victory is considered a tactic.

I don't think that's the case, especially for most people. The only time it was mentioned in this discussion (IIRC) was Umby saying he lost because of being converted in the Thing II, but he was converted because he was trusted at that point, not out of vindictiveness.

In short: while I wouldn't say it would never happen, I think that argument against conversion is mostly a straw man.

Brickroad
09-15-2013, 03:13 PM
It also bothers me that being a dick has become a big enough part of our game mentality that saving a conversion to screw someone out of victory is considered a tactic.

As if you didn't do this in TO2. As if you wouldn't do this again in TO3. As if it wasn't totally hilarious.

Rufferto
09-15-2013, 03:13 PM
I don't think that's the case, especially for most people. The only time it was mentioned in this discussion (IIRC) was Umby saying he lost because of being converted in the Thing II, but he was converted because he was trusted at that point, not out of vindictiveness.

In short: while I wouldn't say it would never happen, I think that argument against conversion is mostly a straw man.

Actually, it was brought up when Egarwaen mentioned it explicitly as optimal mafia strategy.

In this case, in fact, optimal mafia play is quite obvious:

1. Hunt for the infiltrator with your inspector.
2. After day 1, only kill people you've inspected and found not to be infiltrator.
3. When you find the infiltrator, do your best to keep them alive.
4. Convert them at the end of the game as a winning move, or once the inspector is dead, or once it's clear that you've lost to fuck a member of the town out of their victory.

Also, who were you responding to here, Eden?


Also I don't see where Joker is telling everyone that they're all wrong and their way of playing is bad and they should be forced to change their ways. He's a prospective participant, just like everyone else, with a specific idea about one role in the game, just like everyone else, who would like to see this idea in the game, just like everyone else, and is arguing to persuade the group to adopt his idea, just like everyone else. That in no way makes an absolute normative judgment about the other styles of play, just a relative one that everyone arguing in opposition to one another makes (that his/her side is superior). There wouldn't be an issue at all except that the ideas being discussed here are necessarily exclusive (the sleeper can't both know and not know s/he is a sleeper), which means one side has to be chosen.

Solitayre
09-15-2013, 03:14 PM
I'm ambivalent toward role conversion in general. Like it particularly in this game b/c flavor-related reason.



This is what it really comes down to for me. Flavor vs balance. Balance has always take an back seat to flavor in a lot of our pitches. Just look at BattleCON.

So I guess it comes down to "I would like to play a game with cool flavor even if the roles are a bit out of the norm" versus "I would prefer to play a perfectly balanced game of mafia even if it sacrifices the theme."

Egarwaen
09-15-2013, 03:21 PM
It also bothers me that being a dick has become a big enough part of our game mentality that saving a conversion to screw someone out of victory is considered a tactic.

It's more that, once found, the infiltrator is best left as a townie and converted only when needed. As long as they're not a town leader who's being a very effective mafia-hunter, they're probably going to be less suspicious if they think they're town than if they're trying to hide that they're mafia. And if the mob is losing, well, why not convert and either get a bit of an advantage or get back at a victor?

I also think the role is totally ruined if they know what they are, for what that's worth. It only works as you've got it written.

Eden
09-15-2013, 03:50 PM
@Rufferto: Multiple people have said Joker was being rude in the way he presented his argument, and I plain do not see it at all. Wasn't a reply to a specific person.


re: role -- It is not a dealbreaker, I'm playing anyway, but I do want to state a significant preference for either of the following to the current sleeper role:

a) The sleeper is not self-aware but allowed to choose to die if converted
b) The sleeper is self-aware

basically
a >>> b >> current >>>>>>> not-playing

Eden
09-15-2013, 03:52 PM
Also saving a conversion until the end isn't about being a dick to someone and denying them victory (or shouldn't be; shame on ya if it is!), it's optimal play. Just on numbers alone, the later a conversion is, the more powerful it is for the mafia. In one extreme, if it comes down to a Mexican standoff between one town, the Sleeper, and one mafia, conversion = instant-win. The marginal value of a conversion increases as the game goes on and more players are eliminated.

PrivateJoker
09-15-2013, 04:00 PM
Additional question, will the sleeper be revealed upon death? Like, if the sleeper gets lynched on Day 1, will the sinistrals know they don't have a sleeper to look for anymore?

Solitayre
09-15-2013, 04:04 PM
Additional question, will the sleeper be revealed upon death? Like, if the sleeper gets lynched on Day 1, will the sinistrals know they don't have a sleeper to look for anymore?

I think I would say "no."

Eddie
09-15-2013, 04:24 PM
Yeah, I think the fourth Sinistral role as written is a really cool aspect of this particular game and will be sorry if it goes.

Egarwaen
09-15-2013, 04:26 PM
I think I would say "no."

Yeah, I'd play with a sleeper who's unaware, revealed by mob!inspector, not revealed on death, and has the choice on night kill by the mob of switching sides or dying town.

Falselogic
09-15-2013, 04:58 PM
I would actually like it if everyone gave opinions on conversion roles.

I like them!

Gerad
09-15-2013, 05:34 PM
Also saving a conversion until the end isn't about being a dick to someone and denying them victory (or shouldn't be; shame on ya if it is!), it's optimal play. Just on numbers alone, the later a conversion is, the more powerful it is for the mafia. In one extreme, if it comes down to a Mexican standoff between one town, the Sleeper, and one mafia, conversion = instant-win. The marginal value of a conversion increases as the game goes on and more players are eliminated.

I think there are people here who would disagree with you on that one (re: the optimal play bit). I'm pretty sure consensus here in the past has been to convert as early as possible. I haven't thought about it enough to have a well-formed opinion on it.

aturtledoesbite
09-15-2013, 05:39 PM
I think there are people here who would disagree with you on that one (re: the optimal play bit). I'm pretty sure consensus here in the past has been to convert as early as possible. I haven't thought about it enough to have a well-formed opinion on it.

I would say that the best time to convert, like most anything else, is context-dependent. It would probably be a good idea to let the convertee spend some time as town and get people to believe in their townness, so that it becomes harder to push a lynch against them when they become mafia.

As a general statement, though, you usually get more effectiveness out of a late conversion than an early one, since everyone's had more time to build up their perception of the player in question.

botticus
09-15-2013, 06:02 PM
In this case I don't think that would necessarily be a positive - the mafia can't choose who they convert, so they might very well end up converting a town player who has been under suspicion the whole game. Obviously this person wouldn't be an attractive nightkill target (unless they were under town suspicion AND were pretty accurate in their suspicions), but towards the end of the game they might still get tagged.

I think the numbers have often pushed the early conversion here, since the more people in the mafia, the more power you can theoretically wield.

PrivateJoker
09-15-2013, 06:06 PM
More than anything, though, is that a conversion is a two player swing. And being able to alpha strike the endgame with a two player swing is strong, because nobody knew you were gonna do that. With this setup being open though, people should always be assuming it's a possibility. If mislynching that day, and then losing one of your townies, plus the mafia gaining another member is enough to end the game, then you gotta treat it as lylo, even if that won't necessarily happen. That kind of removes some of the surprise factor from it, but there's always optimists who refuse to believe the worst case scenario will happen, and you can definitely take advantage of that.

Falselogic
09-15-2013, 06:18 PM
Poll is up! (http://www.talking-time.net/showthread.php?t=14855)

Vote monkeys! Vote!

EDIT: ahaha! and what do you know I mess up the poll =/

EDIT EDIT: Nothing to see here!

Falselogic
09-15-2013, 06:26 PM
Someone else do it.

I'm going to go bury my head in sand

Gerad
09-15-2013, 06:36 PM
I'll do it. Just a minute.

EDIT: Poll is here (http://www.talking-time.net/showpost.php?p=1626475&postcount=1). Sorry for getting carried away on the title.

Yimothy
09-15-2013, 07:47 PM
I think conversion roles have the potential to be very interesting, and I think that if it's possible for the mafia to get an extra member late in the game and still be in an unwinnable position then the game has bigger balance issues than the conversion.

Regarding optimal conversion play, I'd say usually early if the conversion is tied to one mafia player or late if it isn't, but there are other factors. Didn't a mafia convert the inspector in one of our games? Very good (/lucky) early move. On the other hand, the earlier you convert someone, the more time you give the town to find them.

botticus
09-16-2013, 07:07 AM
Didn't a mafia convert the inspector in one of our games? Very good (/lucky) early move.

Me! To the mafia's credit, they did hold off like 24-36 hours before converting me (it was an anytime thing, not a night action).

Eddie
09-16-2013, 09:13 AM
Me! To the mafia's credit, they did hold off like 24-36 hours before converting me (it was an anytime thing, not a night action).

Well with the ability to talk to each other during the day, we didn't have a good reason to wait. Converting the inspector was pretty damn lucky yeah. There was a lot of good fortune for the mafia that game.

Egarwaen
09-16-2013, 11:15 AM
Regarding optimal conversion play, I'd say usually early if the conversion is tied to one mafia player or late if it isn't, but there are other factors. Didn't a mafia convert the inspector in one of our games? Very good (/lucky) early move. On the other hand, the earlier you convert someone, the more time you give the town to find them.

If you have a targeted conversion power based off a single mafia member, it's optimal to convert early, especially if there's a vigilante. Otherwise you run the risk of losing the power entirely, which is basically a three-player swing.

If you have a conversion available to the team as a whole, it's best to convert late, as it gives your target the most time to establish themselves as town, and possibly even get inspected and confirmed.

Eden
09-16-2013, 04:04 PM
Actually, thinking about it absent powers, while the later conversion obviously holds more marginal value (as you get a larger share of voting power the later the conversion is), you could get more mileage out of a smaller share of voting power acquired earlier and used more.

I can see how the math would work out, but I don't have the time to build a decision tree and anything beyond a vanilla model (i.e. introducing medics and vigilantes) would be more complicated than my plebeian pencil+paper methods could work out :) so I'll do a simplistic vanilla model when I get home from work and/or tomorrow and post results of that for dissection.



In any case, though I overstated it by definitively stating "it's optimal play," what I meant with that assertion (namely that it's ABOUT optimal play, and NOT about being a dick to screw someone over for jollies) is still true -- there's at least nothing to show that later conversion *isn't* optimal play, not yet anyway. (You'll have to excuse me for being skeptical of defaulting to the metagame sorta-consensus for what, at least to me, appears to be a quantitative question in a community that isn't full of stats nerds ;) )

Solitayre
09-16-2013, 04:07 PM
I kind of think trying to form a mathematical equation to find the optimal play is pretty silly.

But, as a card carrying statistics nerd, I would like to see your results.

Gerad
09-16-2013, 04:37 PM
Actually, thinking about it absent powers, while the later conversion obviously holds more marginal value (as you get a larger share of voting power the later the conversion is), you could get more mileage out of a smaller share of voting power acquired earlier and used more.

I can see how the math would work out, but I don't have the time to build a decision tree and anything beyond a vanilla model (i.e. introducing medics and vigilantes) would be more complicated than my plebeian pencil+paper methods could work out :) so I'll do a simplistic vanilla model when I get home from work and/or tomorrow and post results of that for dissection.



In any case, though I overstated it by definitively stating "it's optimal play," what I meant with that assertion (namely that it's ABOUT optimal play, and NOT about being a dick to screw someone over for jollies) is still true -- there's at least nothing to show that later conversion *isn't* optimal play, not yet anyway. (You'll have to excuse me for being skeptical of defaulting to the metagame sorta-consensus for what, at least to me, appears to be a quantitative question in a community that isn't full of stats nerds ;) )

You're assuming that optimal play is to exercise your voting power at every possible chance, when most mafia players here tend to vote for teammates relatively often. I think that sways your analysis some, as early voting power won't be exercised as much as late power. But hey, run the analysis anyway. At least it's a baseline.

And I ran a (woefully small-sample) analysis of Guild's results as town, so I don't think I can get away with not being called a stats nerd.

Eden
09-17-2013, 12:08 AM
so I didn't actually do it tonight because alcohol > mafia stats

sorry :( :(

tomorrow though!

JohnB
09-20-2013, 03:18 PM
Is there a champagne room, and if so might I partake?

PrivateJoker
09-20-2013, 10:20 PM
It's a Cider room.

Yimothy
09-21-2013, 05:46 AM
You may not discuss this game with anyone outside of the thread, via PM, IM, meta thread, or any other form.

Modkill pls.

dtsund
09-24-2013, 03:17 PM
I don't like eliminating money from the snitches altogether; it'd make auctions a lot more all-in oriented than they already are. And that's a really stiff cost.

I do like the idea of imposing a harsher penalty like that, though.

EDIT: Perhaps the "snitch" is a mad scientist who wants secret Organization R&D tech and will give information in exchange for a still-usable item?

Another idea I just had: All money spent on snitches goes straight to the pocket of the Infiltrator.

Egarwaen
09-24-2013, 03:21 PM
Another idea I just had: All money spent on snitches goes straight to the pocket of the Infiltrator.

I think this might just make things even worse, as it increases the number of ways the Infiltrator will be detected, since there are (IIRC) "How much money does X have?" items.

Honestly, I'm not convinced the infiltrator is necessary to the experience. They seem kind of vestigial. I think there's enough compelling gameplay in building alliances and trying to assemble a winning coalition and the auction items you need to pull off a win.

dtsund
09-24-2013, 03:27 PM
there are (IIRC) "How much money does X have?" items.

Nope. MafiaHack III had one, but not The Organization.

Egarwaen
09-24-2013, 03:35 PM
Nope. MafiaHack III had one, but not The Organization.

Oh! Then yeah, that'd work really well.

Brickroad
09-24-2013, 06:33 PM
Re: Snitches.

You can hire one snitch per night for free. Every time you hire a snitch, a randomly-selected living player is added to your win condition. You have to kill your original target plus any targets accumulated via hiring snitches.

Snitches are still a big element of the game, but no operative will want to hire more than one or two. Having two or three targets instead of one should still be manageable, considering how the players tend to faction off, but from the second night onward there is a considerable risk in drawing someone in your alliance as a target.

I think this will accomplish two things:

1) There should be fewer snitches in the game overall. Chances of any one player (or alliance) having the complete target chain by day two is pretty much nil.

2) The accumulation of multiple targets should give the infiltrator a bit more room to maneuver, since the operatives all need an extra day to fulfill their win condition.

Thoughts?

Solitayre
09-24-2013, 06:37 PM
There's quite a few people in the current game who might have thoughts on this but are refraining from posting here.

My thoughts, I think its a little overkill and makes snitches very unattractive. Someone who hires a snitch is that much less likely to win. In such a scenario I'd just demand that everyone reveal their targets day 1. As much as you can claim that there's a huge downside to that (I disagree, but I can see why people would be reluctant to do so), it's way better than having to kill two people instead of one.

WormRider
09-24-2013, 06:40 PM
How about making snitches increasingly expensive? The first one you hire cost 10, the second one 100, the third one 1000, and so on.

Solitayre
09-24-2013, 06:42 PM
How about making snitches increasingly expensive? The first one you hire cost 10, the second one 100, the third one 1000, and so on.

10 is too cheap to start with, but I think this idea has potential.

WormRider
09-24-2013, 06:52 PM
I don't know TO that well, so I'm not sure how undesirable it is to be snitched, but I've also thought of snitch anti-bidding. Every night, any player opt to pay some amount X. People who hire snitches can choose how much they want to pay the snitch; any amount is acceptable. If this amount is smaller than the target's X, the snitch hirer gets no information (but still spends the money).

Torgo
09-24-2013, 07:50 PM
It's a Cider room.
May I have some cider?

Egarwaen
09-26-2013, 10:55 AM
Can I get a Cider Room invite?

Eden
09-27-2013, 07:03 PM
aight someone hit me up with a cider invite please and ty

Falselogic
09-29-2013, 07:32 PM
Where the hell is my cider invite!

Gerad
10-14-2013, 02:17 PM
It's that time again!

Mafia: Back to the Basics

A small squad of international intelligence agents has infiltrated a notorious German crime gang. Their aim is to dismantle the gang from the inside. However, the gang has been tipped off to their presence and has narrowed the potential traitors down to a select -- and quite expendable -- few. A little collateral damage never hurt anybody, right?

Roles:

The town are the members of the crime gang. They aim to eliminate the intelligence agents before the intelligence agents gain a majority within the small group of potential traitors and can establish themselves as trustworthy members of the crime gang.

1 Town Investigator: One member of the crime gang has a preternatural ability to sense the motivations of others. Once per night, he or she may focus on any player. That player’s true allegiance (Agent or Criminal) is returned to the Investigator. Depending on total player number, the Investigator may be allowed one inspection before the game starts. The presence or absence of this pre-investigation will be public.

Possibly 1 Town Vigilante, depending on numbers: One member of the crime gang has the ability to kill one player during night. This ability may only be used once.

The remaining town are vanilla.

The mafia are the intelligence agents. They aim to establish a majority among the suspected traitors so that they can convince the leaders of the crime gang they are faithful and earn their trust, enabling them to cripple the crime gang.

All mafia are vanilla.

Game Notes:

-The following standard general rules apply:


Absolutely no posting in the "Mafia: the Forum Game" thread.
No discussing the game outside of the game thread and designated Quicktopic boards.
No screenshots.
No cyphertext shenanigans.
No direct quotations of any sources outside the thread.


-Normal Mafia rules apply except for those listed below. The mafia win if their numbers equal or exceed the town's numbers. The town wins when all mafia are dead.

-Target player range is 13 and up but I can probably make it work with fewer.

-Ties are broken at random.

-Identities of players lynched or killed at night are public.

-The roles in the game and number of players on each side are public at the start of the game.

-Any days scheduled to end on a weekend (Saturday or Sunday night) will be extended to end on Monday night.

-This ruleset is focused on interesting flavor, open information, and a balanced game, at the expense of opportunities to roleclaim and varied and interesting roles. It’s intended to be a fun, no-nonsense mafia experience.

-Particular attempts at innovations are:
the potential Night 0 scan, which is half for balance and half to try to mitigate the usual informationless Day 1.
the extension of any days ending on weekends to end Monday night, in an attempt to mitigate the players’ lack of availability on weekends.

Any comments and/or suggestions are welcome!

gahitsu
10-14-2013, 02:19 PM
Delicious vanilla!

gahitsu
10-14-2013, 02:24 PM
*pitches Bronto Mafia*

Actually, that kind of sounds fun ...

Gerad
10-14-2013, 02:24 PM
After the last few relatively vanilla ones, I'm really in the mood for a total clusterfuck of powers game.

That's fine, but someone else will have to pitch it! I'm all pitched out.

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 02:51 PM
the extension of any days ending on weekends to end Monday night, in an attempt to mitigate the players’ lack of availability on weekends.

Can we please get a standard set of "meta-rules" that we can all agree to apply to every Mafia game and include in all rules pitch unless explicitly removed? Suggestions:


Absolutely no posting in the "Mafia: the Forum Game" thread.
No discussing the game outside of the game thread and designated Quicktopic boards.
No screenshots.
No cyphertext shenanigans.


I'd like to see this day extension rule used, but it's probably still too experimental.

Gerad
10-14-2013, 03:00 PM
Can we please get a standard set of "meta-rules" that we can all agree to apply to every Mafia game and include in all rules pitch unless explicitly removed? Suggestions:


Absolutely no posting in the "Mafia: the Forum Game" thread.
No discussing the game outside of the game thread and designated Quicktopic boards.
No screenshots.
No cyphertext shenanigans.



I planed to include all of these in the list of rules before the game (well, except "no ciphers", but that wouldn't hurt either). It's part of what I meant by "normal Mafia rules apply" in the pitch; I do like these rules.

I'd like to see this day extension rule used, but it's probably still too experimental.

My take on that is that there's only one way to find out if it works!

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 03:07 PM
I planed to include all of these in the list of rules before the game (well, except "no ciphers", but that wouldn't hurt either). It's part of what I meant by "normal Mafia rules apply" in the pitch; I do like these rules.

Yes, but as we seem to have a decent number of new players on a regular basis, I think there's a benefit to having a list of "normal Mafia rules" that we just include in every rules post.

Solitayre
10-14-2013, 03:16 PM
Standardized rules are a good thing.

Add "no posting role PMs." Apparently, some people need to be told....

Mogri
10-14-2013, 03:18 PM
Generalize that to "no quoting GM communications."

McClain
10-14-2013, 03:27 PM
Generalize that to "no quoting GM communications."

I would go one step further and say simple "no quoting anything originating outside of this thread." I seem to remember at least one game quoting IRC logs, and in general I'm not a fan of even quoting past games.

Paraphrasing will always be allowed and unpreventable, but I think quoting all kinds of sources is kind of like dumpster diving.

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 04:07 PM
Absolutely no posting in the "Mafia: the Forum Game" thread.
No discussing the game outside of the game thread and designated Quicktopic boards.
No screenshots.
No cyphertext shenanigans.
No direct quotations of any sources outside the thread.

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 04:10 PM
Paraphrasing will always be allowed and unpreventable, but I think quoting all kinds of sources is kind of like dumpster diving.

Paraphrasing also introduces way more opportunity to subtly twist wording, reducing the level of trust. My main objection to screenshots is that they're so easily doctored, but they don't feel like it. There is - as Sol discovered back in Pony!Mafia - a presumption of legitimacy, even though...

Well, this. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/cccyj0fykqq7aub/Mafia%3A%20The%20forum%20game%20-%20Page%20242%20-%20The%20Return%20of%20Talking%20Time%202013-10-14%2015-11-30.png) (Sorry, McClain)

Destil
10-14-2013, 04:13 PM
My problem with screenshots is that it's supposed to be lying to the internet: the game, not Photoshop: the game (or inspect element).

Gerad
10-14-2013, 04:15 PM
My problem with screenshots is that it's supposed to be lying to the internet: the game, not Photoshop: the game (or inspect element).

I'm certainly behind "no screenshots". I'll edit Egar's last rules into my pitch, to be clear.

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 04:25 PM
I'm certainly behind "no screenshots". I'll edit Egar's last rules into my pitch, to be clear.

To be clear, "no cyphertext shenanigans" should include both hashing and encryption. If you can post something in code and then provide a key that either decodes it, or encodes some other message into the same form, it's right out. Other codes - like mentioning certain words to convey inspection results - are, of course, totally legit.

EDIT: Oh and, of course, "No editing or deleting posts" and "No tags".

Solitayre
10-14-2013, 04:33 PM
I don't know how I feel about forbidding all quotations.

If I say "Hey guys, Eddie is acting exactly like he did the last time he did when he was mafia! Here's a quote from that game as evidence!" that would be a rule violation.

Or could I just post the link and not actually quote it? How deep does the rabbit hole go?

Destil
10-14-2013, 04:37 PM
I don't feel you need no quotations. Banning screenshots covers it. If you want to fake a quote go for it.

I have a problem with the technical aspects of faking out of thread communication, not the ability to do so.

McClain
10-14-2013, 04:40 PM
My problem with screenshots is that it's supposed to be lying to the internet: the game, not Photoshop: the game (or inspect element).

This. The game is mental. It's not fun when it becomes more about forensics than lie detection and logic.

McClain
10-14-2013, 04:41 PM
I don't feel you need no quotations. Banning screenshots covers it. If you want to fake a quote go for it.

My only problem with this is when people start trying to game the system by analyzing role PMs for sentence patterns and really minutia shit like that.

Destil
10-14-2013, 04:43 PM
GM's should punk the bitches who try that, I always have.

breakman
10-14-2013, 04:47 PM
This is incomplete, and missing some of the zanier ideas I had that probably wouldn't work (or would make things unreasonably complicated), but...


Tactics Ogre MafiaLet Us Conspire Together


A game for 21 players (or maybe a smaller number divisible by 3)


The Dynast-King is dead! Are you a bad enough Opinion Leader to unite the continent under your banner?

Rules:

The game consists of three equal-sized, opposing factions, plus a Secret Boss faction. One player will be lynched at the end of each Day. All information about the lynched player is made public - Role, Faction, and Secret Boss affiliation, if applicable.

After the lynch is a Scoring Phase. One point will be awarded to the faction with the most living players (the faction losing a member to the lynch that Day is not eligible). In the event of a tie, no points are awarded. The game ends when one faction accumulates 3 points.

At Night, one player from each faction will be able to use a power.


Special Role - Opinion Leader: Each of the three factions has a leader, who is publicly identified as such at the start of the game. The Opinion Leaders may talk in the game thread, but cannot vote, nor can they be the target of any vote or power use. Initially, the Opinion Leader is given only a list of the player roles that make up their army.

Issuing Orders: Before the end of each Day Phase they can, via PM, do both of the following:

1.) Select one power role from their army. At the start of the Night Phase, the Opinion Leader will first be told the identity of the power role, and that player will be informed that they have been selected to use their power that night. Only players selected this way can use night powers.

2.) Name one living player. If that player is a member of their faction, they will be invited to a nightchat at the start of the Night Phase. Otherwise, nothing happens.

Once every living member of a faction is in the nightchat, two players may be chosen to use their night powers.


Power Roles: Every player (other than Opinion Leaders) has a Power Role. All power roles may or may not be included in the game, and multiple players with the same power may or may not exist in the same army. Some Power Roles also have Day Powers. These powers do not require selection by the Opinion Leader, and can only be activated by publicly announcing their use in the game thread.
(I haven't figured out what all of the roles will be actually, but here are some examples)
(Also some of these class names may be wrong, I haven't played the game recently enough)

Archer: Select one player to nightkill. Cannot be used on consecutive nights.

Berserker: Select one player to nightkill. Can be used on consecutive nights. If the targeted player is being protected, the Berserker dies instead.

Knight: Select one player to protect from nightkills - OR - Select a number between 1 and (number of players in each faction); each member of your faction will be assigned a number at the start of the game, and you will protect the player corresponding to the number you selected (which may be yourself).

Witch: Select one player to Charm. At the 48-hour mark of the following Day, the charmed player will be given a target provided by the Witch. The charmed player must have a vote cast against that target when the Day ends, or else they will die. The second time this power is used, it takes effect at the 24-hour mark; the third (and subsequent) time, it takes effect at the start of the Day. If the Witch fails to name a target in time, or the named target is dead, there is no effect.

Wizard: Select one player to put to sleep. That player's actions that night, if applicable, are negated. At the start of the next Day, the sleeping player is not counted as a living player (for the win condition check; the player then wakes up).

Ninja: Select one player. The messenger belonging to that player's faction will be ambushed; that faction's Opinion Leader will not be able to post in the game thread on the following Day.

Necromancer: Select one dead player to bring back to "life." The Undead player is now aligned with the Necromancer's faction (if they weren't already). They do not count as a living player (except that they can be killed again), and cannot talk or use any power they had before they died. Their only action is to vote, and once their vote is cast, it cannot be changed or retracted. This power can only be used once.


Secret Bosses: One player from each faction is a Secret Boss. They have a normal player Role, as well as additional powers (centered around protecting/aiding each other). Each Secret Boss counts as a member of their assigned faction, in addition to the Secret Boss faction, for win condition purposes.

If the Secret Bosses, at any point, have the same number of living players as the largest remaining faction, the game ends in a Secret Boss victory. For the purposes of this check, the Secret Bosses do not count as members of the main factions. In other words, if each faction loses two players, and none of those players are Secret Bosses, the Secret Bosses win (assuming a 21 player game).

Speaking of, several rules may need to be adjusted if there are fewer than 21 players.

Destil
10-14-2013, 04:50 PM
Sold.

(I need to actually read past the first line later)

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 04:55 PM
Or could I just post the link and not actually quote it? How deep does the rabbit hole go?

The rule as I wrote it doesn't forbid linking or paraphrasing, but does forbid presenting something as a direct quotation or screenshot.

Eden
10-14-2013, 04:55 PM
-Particular attempts at innovations are:
the potential Night 0 scan, which is half for balance and half to try to mitigate the usual informationless Day 1.
the extension of any days ending on weekends to end Monday night, in an attempt to mitigate the players’ lack of availability on weekends.

Any comments and/or suggestions are welcome!
These are both really good ideas and I want to see how they work in practice.

Falselogic
10-14-2013, 04:57 PM
What about ending a day early if there is a clear lead for at least 24 hours? This nips last minute busing and encourages people to play the entire day cycle not just the last 1 to 2 hours of it?

Solitayre
10-14-2013, 05:06 PM
Some games have had that rule. I have no hostility towards it.

Mogri
10-14-2013, 05:07 PM
I don't think it's standard enough to be an Every Mafia Game rule, though.

Eden
10-14-2013, 05:11 PM
What about ending a day early if there is a clear lead for at least 24 hours? This nips last minute busing and encourages people to play the entire day cycle not just the last 1 to 2 hours of it?
This might slow down the busing, but it won't do anything to curb inactivity. I see it as a net negative; the last-minute scrambling is the most entertaining part of the game, and only becomes an issue because of the inactivity (which won't be changed by the rule).

I would vote against such a rule, but I'd play with or without fwiw.

McClain
10-14-2013, 05:54 PM
You can and will still have scrambles at the end of the day. I like having the 24-hour rule because it helps with days where there's an obvious lynch, and it also encourages players to participate early in the day, even if they make a soft vote that will likely change later on.

aturtledoesbite
10-14-2013, 06:07 PM
The only problem I have with that rule is that "a clear lead" is, funnily enough, unclear in its meaning. Is this simple majority, a hard-set number of votes,...?

Destil
10-14-2013, 06:11 PM
The weekend rule really makes me think we should have some sort of structure like

48 hour day/72 hour day/48 hour night

But I'm pretty sure that it would be a swing in the way the game works to eliminate half the night phases (mafia vote for their kill during the day and don't talk those days). Still may be worth considering...

EDIT: Actually 48 Day/24 Night/48 Day/48 night may have promise.

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 06:21 PM
EDIT: Actually 48 Day/24 Night/48 Day/48 night may have promise.

That's interesting, and also seems less likely to kill interest during the first night, which seems to be a pretty common problem...

Eden
10-14-2013, 06:29 PM
Outside of the opening few days of M26 (where there were a lot of people and thus a lot of places to look and lots of conversation going on) and M26 night-chatting with Solitayre, I've found myself hard-pressed to utilize the full time we're given both day and night (and even then, after a few days we weren't talking the whole time in the nightchat). 48h/24h day/night is a really good idea imo.

McClain
10-14-2013, 06:31 PM
The problem with shorter days is there will almost always be a day where you just can't be arsed to mafia. I could live with a 48-hour day, but I don't think anything should be just 24-hours other than if we institute the majority rule.

WormRider
10-14-2013, 06:45 PM
Well how about:

72 hour day starting Sunday night, then 48 hour night starting Wednesday night. Then no one does anything during the weekend. Day begins again on Sunday night. Each cycle is a full week, woo!

Eden
10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
The problem with shorter days is there will almost always be a day where you just can't be arsed to mafia.
http://www.404errorpages.com/images/image003.png

PrivateJoker
10-14-2013, 08:11 PM
It's that time again!

Mafia: Back to the Basics

Any comments and/or suggestions are welcome!

I very much prefer these kinds of vanilla setups. I do think, however, that in a game where the town has a cop and a vig, that the mafia needs to have something to help them out. A roleblocker, or even a godfather, would help make a difference. You can't just give the town 2 roles that powerful, and give the mafia nothing. That's skewing the game way in town's favor, to me.

In the last game, the town had WAY too much going for it in power roles. The only reason we came out as well as we did was because we had a rolecop who lucked out and found the doctor immediately, or we'd have been dealing with "Follow the cop!" all game. It would have been hell. We also had the advantage of night flips not being revealed, giving us the ability to use those roles against the town (which I took advantage of).

In your setup though, the town just has 2 great roles working for them, and the mafia has nothing. They don't even have an informational advantage, if you give them a scan on night 0. I feel like they need something to even the playing field. Cops alone are WAY too good to go unchecked. I hardly even see them get used, cuz they're kind of OP. Trackers are pretty good, since they are more situational, and you have to use your own judgement about whether you just found a bad guy, or a friendly PR.

Eden
10-14-2013, 08:14 PM
In the event that Gerad does decide to add a mafia power role, I highly suggest a roleblocker

breakman
10-14-2013, 08:21 PM
Mafia: Back to the Basics

I'm not really interested in this game (except that I like the term "crime gang"), and it probably does go without saying, but...do the Mafia actually have a nightkill?

Gerad
10-14-2013, 08:48 PM
Well how about:

72 hour day starting Sunday night, then 48 hour night starting Wednesday night. Then no one does anything during the weekend. Day begins again on Sunday night. Each cycle is a full week, woo!

That was actually what I was probably going to do once I realized that extending one day to Monday makes the next end on a weekend and therefor get extended to Monday as well. Though I'd probably just make night 96 hours.

I very much prefer these kinds of vanilla setups. I do think, however, that in a game where the town has a cop and a vig, that the mafia needs to have something to help them out. A roleblocker, or even a godfather, would help make a difference. You can't just give the town 2 roles that powerful, and give the mafia nothing. That's skewing the game way in town's favor, to me.

In the last game, the town had WAY too much going for it in power roles. The only reason we came out as well as we did was because we had a rolecop who lucked out and found the doctor immediately, or we'd have been dealing with "Follow the cop!" all game. It would have been hell. We also had the advantage of night flips not being revealed, giving us the ability to use those roles against the town (which I took advantage of).

In your setup though, the town just has 2 great roles working for them, and the mafia has nothing. They don't even have an informational advantage, if you give them a scan on night 0. I feel like they need something to even the playing field. Cops alone are WAY too good to go unchecked. I hardly even see them get used, cuz they're kind of OP. Trackers are pretty good, since they are more situational, and you have to use your own judgement about whether you just found a bad guy, or a friendly PR.

The vigilante only gets one kill, so it's the weakest vigilante we've ever seen here. I really don't think it's even that much of a benefit to the town; they can claim, sure, so I have to take that into account for balance, but the kill can't be too far from a neutral influence. It's high-variance, sure, but I don't think anyone here is that good at mafia such that the kill makes a major difference.

All that aside, I only plan to add the vigilante if player numbers dictate I need to for balance, so I will be making sure not to let that unbalance the game.

As for your other concerns, I'll be working off of game balance guidelines I found at another community with many games under their collective belt. The balance may be a little different than desired due to differences in communities, but I'm confident it will be pretty good. You're worried this will favor the town too much, but keep in mind that an inspector reveal is instant death with no doctor, unlike last game.

A tracker could be interesting, but I don't think it's really right for this game, with one or no other town power roles. It'd pretty much be an inspector.

I'm not really interested in this game (except that I like the term "crime gang"), and it probably does go without saying, but...do the Mafia actually have a nightkill?

:( on your first part. I promise I'll work hard on the flavor!

Yes, the mafia have a nightkill. It will be laid out in the formal rules for the game if it gets that far; here, I mean it to be part of "normal mafia rules apply".

aturtledoesbite
10-14-2013, 08:57 PM
About the balance of Gerad's game, I don't feel it's particularly skewed. Remember that the Town has one major factor that practically kills its ability to think most of the time: paranoia. The Mafia knows who's Town, which is a major advantage in itself, as well.

Also, Gerad, to make this clear, the crime gang is Town and the government agents are Mafia? o_O

Gerad
10-14-2013, 09:05 PM
Also, Gerad, to make this clear, the crime gang is Town and the government agents are Mafia? o_O

Oh yes. It's a mindscrew, I know. Also not entirely original, though of course more so than the standard. But, hey, there is the opportunity to roleplay German gangsters!

PrivateJoker
10-14-2013, 09:05 PM
An inspector reveal is totally worth getting killed though, if he's found a member of the mafia. The town gets to trade one of their numbers (which are superior) for free. How is that balanced? The Mafia need something, even if it's not that great, to give them an edge. I'm not worried about the vig that much, because vigs are almost self balancing. Good ones are a problem for the mafia, but bad ones are the mafia's best friend. Cops tho? Fuck that role, the mafia have nothing to stop it. Killing him for revealing doesn't stop the fact that he just confirmed one of you as mafia, for free. The mafia are gonna kill somebody every night anyway, it's totally not a problem for the town if the cop is the one to go that night, if he already did his job and caught a bad guy. Giving them a roleblocker, so they at least have a chance of eliminating that threat, helps.

breakman
10-14-2013, 09:06 PM
:( on your first part. I promise I'll work hard on the flavor!

Sorry, I just meant that I would prefer to play games that are more complicated, not less. But that's just me. I'm sure it'll be fun to watch.

aturtledoesbite
10-14-2013, 09:15 PM
An inspector reveal is totally worth getting killed though, if he's found a member of the mafia. The town gets to trade one of their numbers (which are superior) for free. How is that balanced? The Mafia need something, even if it's not that great, to give them an edge. I'm not worried about the vig that much, because vigs are almost self balancing. Good ones are a problem for the mafia, but bad ones are the mafia's best friend. Cops tho? Fuck that role, the mafia have nothing to stop it. Killing him for revealing doesn't stop the fact that he just confirmed one of you as mafia, for free. The mafia are gonna kill somebody every night anyway, it's totally not a problem for the town if the cop is the one to go that night, if he already did his job and caught a bad guy. Giving them a roleblocker, so they at least have a chance of eliminating that threat, helps.

Okay, so. It's a 1-1 trade. Alright. But as I described last game, only one mafia member needs to live in order to nightkill. Every town member that's lost hurts the town's ability to find mafia as well as their morale.

Red Hedgehog
10-14-2013, 09:27 PM
-Particular attempts at innovations are:
the potential Night 0 scan, which is half for balance and half to try to mitigate the usual informationless Day 1.


I had another idea for a proposal that gave day 1 some potential information. Let's see if I have time to put that mafia game together.

Eden
10-14-2013, 09:44 PM
Also, Gerad, to make this clear, the crime gang is Town and the government agents are Mafia? o_O
If I draw mafia in this one I'm going to explode

PrivateJoker
10-14-2013, 09:59 PM
Okay, so. It's a 1-1 trade. Alright. But as I described last game, only one mafia member needs to live in order to nightkill. Every town member that's lost hurts the town's ability to find mafia as well as their morale.

It's a 1-1 trade at absolutely no cost to the town tho. They are going to lose a town member to a nightkill every single night, no matter what, until the end of the game. The fact that, for no reason other than the existence of a cop, they get to catch a mafia member for free, and there's literally NOTHING the mafia can do to stop it, is dumb to me.

Egarwaen
10-14-2013, 10:04 PM
It's a 1-1 trade at absolutely no cost to the town tho. They are going to lose a town member to a nightkill every single night, no matter what, until the end of the game. The fact that, for no reason other than the existence of a cop, they get to catch a mafia member for free, and there's literally NOTHING the mafia can do to stop it, is dumb to me.

... Are you certain you actually enjoy playing Mafia? My understanding was that the Inspector role was basically the mafia role, with classic games / balance being an investigator and a bunch of vanilla town / mafia.

Torgo
10-14-2013, 11:35 PM
After the last few relatively vanilla ones, I'm really in the mood for a total clusterfuck of powers game.
Boy have I got a treat for you.

Final Fantasy Tactics Mafia: Terror at Riovanes

(Incidentally, I hadn't intended to pitch this against breakman's game, but... well, here we are.)

Teams
Riovanes Guards (Town)
Shrine Knights (Mafia)
Lucavi (Secret Boss)

Standard TT Mafia rules apply: 72/48 day/night cycle. Player with the most votes at the end of the day die, ect. You guys know how it is. Every player is dealt a job class. There will never be more than one of any job in the game. Unless otherwise noted either team can have any job class. Affiliation and class are revealed upon lynch.

Job Classes

(Credit goes to Mogri for tons of help fleshing out abilities, tossing out idea of his own, and just generally serving as a soundboard, and to spineshark for the Archer class, who I literally ripped wholesale from Shmup Mafia.)


Squire (town-only) - Throw Stone: Once per day, the Squire can PM the moderator to throw a stone at another player. The moderator will announce that the player was hit by a stone during the next vote count.
Knight - Skill Break: Once per game, during the night, the Knight may target one player and "break" their power, preventing its use for the rest of the game.
Archer - Charge: Every turn, the Archer gains one charge. If the Archer is at risk of being lynched, charges will be automatically be spent, to reduce the vote at a cost of 1 charge per vote, until another player is up to die instead. If there aren't enough charges to alter the result, the Archer will die.
Monk - Hamedo: If the Monk is lynched, the player who placed the most recent vote for the Monk dies as well.
Thief (mafia only) - Steal ID: Upon death or investigation, the Thief will flip an affiliation and job of his choice.
Geomancer - Attack UP: Will break any ties at the end of the day. If he is tied in votes, the other player will be lynched instead.
Ninja - Sunken State: The Ninja may place two votes. His first vote is made public as normal, but his second is made privately via PM to the GM. His vote remains anonymous, but will appear in offical vote tallys. The secret vote may not be for the same player.
Lancer - Jump: The Lancer is unaffected by hostile player actions other than night kills. The attacker is not informed of their failure.
Samurai - Blade Grasp: The Samurai requires a majority to lynch, as opposed to a plurality. In the event of a plurality, the player with the second highest number of votes will die.
Chemist - Phoenix Down: Once per game, during the day, the Chemist may revive one player. The Chemist will be identified on use (and will probably have some explaining to do.)
Wizard - Flare: Once per game, during the day, the Wizard may target one player and kill them instantly. The Wizard will be identified on use (and will probably have some explaining to do.)
Priest - Reraise: The follow day after the Priest's death (day or night), they will come back to life.
Time Mage - Quick/Slow: Once per game, at night, the Time Mage may choose to extend the next day by twenty-four hours, or end it by twenty-four hours.
Oracle - Silence: At night may target one player. That player may not post the following day. He may still vote.
Mediator (Town-only) - Invite: During the day, may PM the names of one or two players to the GM and invite them to a secret night chat the following night. The Mediator may operate under a pseudonym during the nightchat
Summoner (town-only) - Golem: Once per night, may choose to protect one target. That target will be immune from death for that evening. Upon a successful protection, the Summoner may not choose another target the following evening. The Summoner may not target himself.
Dancer - Nameless Song: Once per night, at night, the Dancer may choose a target. Their power will be nullified the following day/night.
Bard - Messaging Song: Once per night, the Bard can compose a message that will be publicly displayed the next day. The message must be fewer then 100 characters in length.
Calculator - Math Skill: The Calculator's vote counts as two, but he may only vote once per day.
Mime - Mimic: The Mime imitates the movements of his target. Every night, the Mime may target one player. He may choose to either learn their job class or affiliation.


Note on the Chemist and Wizard: Due to their nature the Wizard and Chemist are going to operate under the honor system. These are immediate effects, used by the player, in the main thread, and players are to assume that if they get nuked or revived by someone that the action is on the up-and-up and play (or not play) accordingly. I'll be along to verify the action when I can, but players are expected to be honest here. Dishonest players will, of course, be dealt with harshly. Depending on the severity I'm not beyond disqualifying an entire team.

Lucavi Rules
On night 3, one randomly-chosen player from either team will "find" the Zodiac Stone and become the Lucavi. He loses his job ability, but gains two night kills that he may use at his discretion. He may only use one night kill per night. To win, the Lucavi must be the last remaining player standing. The Lucavi will ID as such upon investigation or death.

(And before you ask, yes, the Lucavi may kill himself. If it's good enough for Hashmalum, it's good enough for us.)


A couple thoughts:


The idea behind the Mime is that it basically allows for an investigation role that serves both the town and the mafia. Where the town generally wants to know affiliation, the mafia are more interested in job class. I think revealing both could be too potent for the town, who is already powered.
I like the idea of having the mafia having a bad seed in their ranks, but I'm worried it will weight the overall game against them. It doesn't really effect the town since they have to kill all the mafia anyway, but it ultimately gives the town no incentive to bargain should it come down to the wire and the Secret Boss is still alive. If nothing else it would be interesting to see how it would effect the mafia behind the scenes and psychologically.


Should this get picked up I wouldn't mind a little help running and flavoring it. The thought of running a mafia game is kind of actually really intimidating!

Jeanie
10-14-2013, 11:40 PM
That sounds fucking crazy.

I LOVE IT!

Destil
10-14-2013, 11:41 PM
Sold.

(I need to actually read past the first line later)

aturtledoesbite
10-15-2013, 12:34 AM
"So, what happens when the squire throws a stone at someone?"
"They get hit by a stone."
"Okay, and how does that affect the game?"
"They get hit by a stone."
"But surely there's a reason for it!"
"Yes. They get hit by a stone."

EDIT: Also, for some strange reason, a 74-hour day doesn't quite sound right...

Torgo
10-15-2013, 01:08 AM
"So, what happens when the squire throws a stone at someone?"
"They get hit by a stone."
"Okay, and how does that affect the game?"
"They get hit by a stone."
"But surely there's a reason for it!"
"Yes. They get hit by a stone.".
It can serve as a method of confirmation for the claimed Squire. It also serves as a way to draw attention to someone a guaranteed townie wants to draw attention to with minimal fear of retribution.

Also, for some strange reason, a 74-hour day doesn't quite sound right...
Because I lack creativity, I basically gimped the idea for the Time Mage from Pony Mafia, where one of the mafia could end the day twenty-four hours early. The power bit them in the rear before it was all said and done, but it was still a good idea.

edit: adding a slight amendment to the Ninja. He can't cast both votes for the same player. I meant to add that in but I forgot lolol.

PrivateJoker
10-15-2013, 02:09 AM
He was actually referring to the fact that 74 hours sounds wrong, and that you probably meant 72 hours (3 irl days). Unless... there's a reason you're adding 2 hours?

... Are you certain you actually enjoy playing Mafia? My understanding was that the Inspector role was basically the mafia role, with classic games / balance being an investigator and a bunch of vanilla town / mafia. Just because it gets played that way a lot doesn't mean it's balanced. Cop roles don't see a lot of use where I play, because they're grossely overpowered. In games where they do exist, there's always stuff to balance him.

Last game somebody ran with a traditional Cop actually had both a Godfather and a Miller in it, just to keep the cop on his toes. Trackers get run a lot, but that's usually in PR heavy games where there's a good chance something interesting will be seen, and they have to figure out why X might have visited Y, instead of just automatically catching mafia.

Torgo
10-15-2013, 02:49 AM
He was actually referring to the fact that 74 hours sounds wrong, and that you probably meant 72 hours (3 irl days). Unless... there's a reason you're adding 2 hours?
Oh. Right.

Naturally.

(amended to the pitch.)

botticus
10-15-2013, 06:34 AM
Has the Tracker ever been used successfully here? I know we've had it in a few games (either seeing who acts or who is acted upon), but I don't know if anyone has ever 1) caught anybody taking an action and more importantly 2) used the resulting information it in any valuable way.

Frankly I don't think we've historically had much issue with an unchecked inspector unbalancing games. I would guess that for every game where an inspector gets a mafia, there's been a game where he was nightkilled first, or had to reveal to avoid a lynch or other bad outcome before catching one. The Roleblocker is fine to add, but you're unlikely to block the same unknown person more than once, so if you're killing and blocking the first and second most likely investigators, at best it voids a single scan.

Solitayre
10-15-2013, 08:38 AM
I can see why some people would have an issue with the cop role. Since it provides an unfiltered and unambiguous "kill this person" reading in most cases. With a tracker role, there's at least another level of analysis the tracker has to use to figure out if the person he scanned is up to no good or is maybe a friendly power role. and the accused player has slightly more ability to defend himself. As you saw in this game, guilty scans are instant death.

Gerad
10-15-2013, 10:26 AM
An inspector reveal is totally worth getting killed though, if he's found a member of the mafia. The town gets to trade one of their numbers (which are superior) for free. How is that balanced? The Mafia need something, even if it's not that great, to give them an edge. I'm not worried about the vig that much, because vigs are almost self balancing. Good ones are a problem for the mafia, but bad ones are the mafia's best friend. Cops tho? Fuck that role, the mafia have nothing to stop it. Killing him for revealing doesn't stop the fact that he just confirmed one of you as mafia, for free. The mafia are gonna kill somebody every night anyway, it's totally not a problem for the town if the cop is the one to go that night, if he already did his job and caught a bad guy. Giving them a roleblocker, so they at least have a chance of eliminating that threat, helps.

I don't think you're operating with the same concept of "balance" that I am. In my opinion, a game is balanced if the town and mafia both have long-term winrates near 50%. There are lots of ways to achieve this. You could conceivably have a balanced game with a much more powerful role than this; you could have an unkillable inspector that the mafia does have absolutely no recourse against and the game could still be balanced if the mafia's numbers are sufficiently high. That doesn't mean that would be a fun game, but it would be balanced.

One of my goals in creating games is to maximize interesting decisions. That's not one of the foremost drivers of this game, but it's still something I'd like to keep. I think having an inspector does that. The inspector has to think about when to come out, who to inspect, etc.; the mafia can try to find and kill the inspector before they come out; there is the potential for mafia to try to claim inspector to avoid getting lynched and out the inspector, etc. I like it and I'm going to keep it in. I'm confident I can balance the game since there's tons of data out there on games like this.

Just because it gets played that way a lot doesn't mean it's balanced. Cop roles don't see a lot of use where I play, because they're grossely overpowered. In games where they do exist, there's always stuff to balance him.

It does if it's played that way a lot and the results are close to 50-50.

I can see why some people would have an issue with the cop role. Since it provides an unfiltered and unambiguous "kill this person" reading in most cases. With a tracker role, there's at least another level of analysis the tracker has to use to figure out if the person he scanned is up to no good or is maybe a friendly power role. and the accused player has slightly more ability to defend himself. As you saw in this game, guilty scans are instant death.

That is true, but it's something I'm OK having as part of the game. As I mentioned before, a tracker wouldn't work here without enough other roles. I want to have an inspector in the game to provide some of the interesting decisions I meant earlier. Activity in a game always spikes when there's a reveal.

Parallel to this whole discussion, the general opinion seems to be that an inspector who finds a mafia the first night should reveal and cash in the kill. I disagree with this, depending on the size of the game, and I imagine some others do too. I don't think inspector strategy is as brainless as some of you seem to.

Rufferto
10-15-2013, 12:03 PM
*pitches Bronto Mafia*

Actually, that kind of sounds fun ...

I dunno if you were serious about wanting Bronto Mafia, but I've created a variation of it that has no items, but where every player is a power role of some sort.

The Baltimore PD have set up a police detail to catch crime in the city. Unbeknownst to the PD, the Barksdale and East Side Organizations have infiltrated the detail. Fortunately, Liutentant Daniels suspects something is going on and decides to test his crew by putting a wire on their phone lines.
Every day, the players decide who to plant a wire on. If the player is police, nothing happens. If the player is part of the Barksdale or East Side organizations, they are sent to jail (killed).

The Wire Mafia

Standard rules: No talking about the game outside of game thread and designated quicktopics, 72/48 hour day/night cycle.
I am not going to outlaw taking snapshots of role PMs. If anything, the town had better be careful about which team they wish to provoke. Focusing on the Barksdale team leaves you vulnerable to Proposition Joe, and so forth.
Dead players are not allowed to participate. No posting, no night chats, etc.

Roles are revealed upon death. That means lynches and night kills.

The town wins when Omar, Brandon, the Barksdale and Eastside crew are dead.
The Barksdale crew wins when their number are equal to the remaining players.
The East Side crew wins when they outnumber the remaining players.
Omar and Brandon win if any other team wins and at least one of the two are alive.
NOTE: if Brandon and Omar win, everyone else loses.


Police Detail

Bubbles - Resident snitch. Gets to investigate one player each night.

Kima - Undercover: Each night, Kima can choose one person to chat with. The following day, a private chat is set up between her and her chosen player. These chats are open day and night.
NOTE: These chats only close upon death of one of the two players. This means that Kima accumulates more chats the longer she stays in the game.

Daniels - Police immunity: can use his police powers to protect anyone he so chooses. This also stops conversions.

Sgt. Carver - Police Thievery: Once per game, he can choose to take any dead players' power.

Lester - Super Cop: Once per game, at day or night, you can choose to bust a player. If they're town, nothing happens. If they're part of Barksdale/East Side crew, they're going to jail.

Herc - Cop harassment: at night, chooses to block one player. That player's night powers do not work.

McNulty - McNulty sucks and ruins everything. At night, he can choose two players. Any night power affecting these two players are switched.

Rawls - Same as Mcnulty, except Rawls isn't a goddamn punk like Mcnulty.
These switching powers stack. For example: If Rawls chooses Avon and String to switch, and McNulty chooses Avon and Proposition Joe to switch, and a night kill is directed towards Avon, this kills String and Joe instead. However, if Joe is targeted, only Avon dies.

Barksdale Crew

Four man team.

Wee-Bey - The rook. He has an individual night kill, to be used twice per game. If he so chooses, he can instead use one day kill. No one is notified of Wee-bey's identity; the player is merely killed and the day goes on.
If Wee-Bey uses a night kill, he can no longer choose the day kill option.

Stringer Bell - The Queen. He gets to investigate a player each night or protect a player from night kills.

Avon - The King. If any of his crew gets killed/jailed, he gets their power. Note: These powers stack.
That means if String and Wee-Bey are both dead, Avon can investigate a player and kill a player in the same night.

D'angelo - I forget what he's supposed to be. Once per game, D'angelo can choose to give himself up. He must post, in bold, his role in the game thread. This immediately ends the day.
No actions taken after D'angelo's reveal will be counted. Whoever has the most votes at this time will be sent to jail.

In addition to their night powers, The Barksdale crew get to choose one player to night kill each night. They have a private night chat to discuss their actions.

East Side Crew

Two man team.

Proposition Joe - Every night, he can recruit any one player to his team. If Proposition Joe is killed, his liutenant takes on the mantle of Proposition Joe. If Cheese is also dead, the remaining team democratically chooses their next Joe. After the second Joe dies, no new Joes are generated.

Cheese - Normal thug. He becomes Proposition Joe if Joe dies.

Conversion powers: Players who are converted are given a direct chat with Proposition Joe. Joe can choose to add them to the team chat if he so chooses.
Joe is not informed of the player's role upon conversion. Omar and Brandon can be converted. This does not change their win condition.
The Barksdale crew can't be converted. If Proposition Joe tries to convert a Barksdale member, he is instead revealed as a member of the Barksdale crew. Their role, however, is not revealed. No one except Proposition Joe is told this.

The East Side Crew can use their night turn to investigate a player, or kill a player. If Proposition Joe chooses to recruit a player, they can do neither.
Proposition Joe gets final say on what night action the East side crew take.
The East Side Crew have their own team night chat to discuss their night actions. Proposition Joe has a private night chat with each converted player. If he chooses to incorporate a player into the team night chat, he may do so. Obviously, this cannot be revoked later on. If Proposition Joe dies, his secret night chats transfer to the new Proposition Joe. This includes the contents of those chats.


Secret Boss(es)

The Lovers

Omar - Vigilante. Gets one nightkill per game. If Brandon dies, he gets one night kill every night. Alternately, he can use a daykill at the cost of his next two nightkills.
If Omar is night targeted, Brandon dies in his place. This doesn't protect Omar from day kills. Counts as town unless Brandon is dead. If Brandon dies, he becomes a one man crew.

Brandon - Gets a night investigation every night. Brandon role can stack with any role except for the Barksdale crew, Proposition Joe, and Omar.
If Omar is daykilled, Brandon becomes a one man crew and is given one night kill.

Brandon and Omar have their own nightchat.

Power Order of Operations:
Power switching
Role blocking/Night protection powers
Night kills/Investigations/Conversions/Night Chat

If two players choose to kill the other, they both die.

How chats work:
Players are only allowed to chat at night, with the exception of Kima's powers.

This game is meant to be played with 15 or more players. Any additional players will be town aligned and given a night switch power or a role blocking power.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 02:17 PM
Alright, I got the blessing from Bongo Bill (and vicariously Friday) to pitch Bronto Mafia verbatim, so I'm fixing up the copypasta for this thread and pitching it now. I like Rufferto's clusterfuck, but it's not quite the clusterfuck that is my game - besides the items, there's no communication between members, which is really what makes their flavor of Mafia so goddamn magical. It is, in fact, the most fun I've ever had playing Mafia, and I wish they ran it more often. :C

Anyhow, pitch in a sec.

dtsund
10-15-2013, 02:21 PM
Since it looks like the current attitude is in favor of chaotic setups, I'll go ahead and repitch this (http://talking-time.net/showpost.php?p=1623192&postcount=7044). Brontomafia on TT would be fascinating, though.

Gerad
10-15-2013, 02:26 PM
I'm happy we've got so many pitches this time and excited to see what Bronto Mafia is!

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 02:37 PM
BRONTOFORUMUS PRESENTS:
BRONTOMAFIA: THE WOLFVAMPENING

CORE RULES

THE DAY/NIGHT LIMIT IS 48 HOURS. EACH PLAYER HAS A ONCE PER GAME "HAMMERTIME" THAT THEY MAY CALL TO EXTEND THE CURRENT DAY 24 HOURS. AT THE END OF THE DAY LIMIT, THE PLAYER WITH THE MOST VOTES IS LYNCHED. AT THE END OF THE NIGHT LIMIT, THE NEXT DAY DAWNS. ANY ABILITIES NOT TAKEN/USED ARE LOST.

THE AH NOW HAS 3 ITEMS PER DAY TO BID ON.

BIDDING CHANGED SLIGHTLY: YOU NOW WILL BID "UP TO" THE AMOUNT YOU SEND ME. LIKE HOW EBAY WORKS. IF YOU CAN WIN THE BID FOR LESS, YOU WILL. EXTRA GOLD WILL BE RETURNED

1. Items have night priority, then wolves, the vamps, then Seers.
2. You can use ANY item on the same night you get it. (*this means you send in your use request if you're bidding on an item.)
3. Items that are only "one use" (like Seer's Glasses, Shovel, Assassin's Blade) reset their "use" upon the holder being killed. This means you can dig up an assassin's blade and use it again even if it was already used.
4. Holy Cross and Silver Pendant will now also give the holder a one-time use death shield if they are attacked by the appropriate faction. Using the item to kill negates this, and getting hit negates being able to use it to kill.
5. The lynch always kills. There is no getting around a lynch kill with any kind of death shield. If the number of votes needed to lynch during the day is greater than 8, the number is 8.

As soon as enough votes are reached, the kill is done. So be careful voting, as wolves or vampires can hop on quickly to secure a lynch. However, I will not lynch a player who has not had a chance to log on and defend himself. There is not hard and fast rule for this, as player's schedules tend to vary. Rest assured, however, you will not be lynched "in your sleep" before you have had a chance to post and defend yourself. (*BrontoMafia goes by majority lynch, I'm willing to change this to a time limit, however.)

NIGHT ROLE PRIORITY: Protection > Items > Wolves > Vampires > Other Kill Types > Others

Gold: You begin the game with 10 gold and gain 2 per turn (at the start of each day) unless specified otherwise.

AH: Bids take place that day or that night, in private to me in PM. Items take effect as soon as bought.

WIN CONDITIONS:

Innocents Win if: All wolves, vampires, and weretigers are dead.
Wolves Win if: Their number exceeds the number of remaining other players. If all vampires are dead, wolves win if their number exceeds or ties.
Vampires Win if: Their number exceeds the number of remaining other players. If all wolves are dead, vampires win if their number exceeds or ties.
Weretiger Wins if: Anyone wins and he or she is still alive; everyone else loses.

VAMPIRE ROLES

Dracula, the Master Vampire: The head honcho. Can bite to turn others to his legion of undead. Can instead use his powers to scry one target. Gets a night 0 scry. If killed, the vampire team selects a new Master Vampire from their ranks. If killed again, no new Master Vampire arises, and the remaining Turned must finish out the game as best they can.
Olrox: The other starting vampire. Works like a normal Turned, but will be shown to be Olrox upon being killed, so the other players know he was a vampire from the very start.
Death: Devil for the Vampires. Does not start off knowing the vampires, or they him. As a Devil clone, starts off human and can be turned into a vampire, but not a wolf. (Being wolfturned kills instead.)
Turned: Regular Vampires. Can kill (not turn) one person per night.

Vampire Team Notes:

The Vampire Team can take one action per round. This means that The Master can bite, or scry, or have one of his Turned kill. Not all three at once.

Vampires are allergic to werewolf blood. If Dracula bites a wolf, he loses his powers and turns into a regular turned, passing his mantle. Werewolves cannot be turned. Dracula has a defensive advantage against normal wolves. If he is attacked by a normal wolf, the wolf will die and Dracula will survive. If attacked by the Greater Werewolf, Dracula dies but the G Wolf survives, as he is now unkillable by any source other than lynch.

If a regular Turned attacks a Wolf, both parties die.

WEREWOLF ROLES

Greater Werewolf: Leader of the wolfpack. Cannot be killed except by lynch.
Werewolf: Mean, lean, and hungry. Kills Vampires without dying, but not Dracula. Only way for the wolves to directly kill him is to send the G. Wolf.
Devil: Works like the Seer (see below) but is on the wolves side.
Cornell: Starts off as the wolfsbaner, but if killed by the G. Wolf, becomes a second G. Wolf.

Wolf Team Notes:

The wolves can turn one player. You can only do this ONCE, per game, so make sure it counts.

INNOCENT ROLES

Seer: Picks one player per night to scry. Reveals any role but not items.
Oracle: Seer, but only is able to tell what Team the target is on. (Wolves, Vamps, Innocents. The Weretiger is invisible to the Oracle.) Gets a night 0 scry.
Private Eye: Works for hire. Players may bid on his services same as bidding on AH items. That same night, the PI gets a list of all offers, including the name of the client, and the name of the person they want investigated. He may take up to 1 job, or none. Taking a job reveals ALL pertinent information about the investigated player, including items held, gold, and roles, to both the client and the PI. The PI starts with zero gold and does not gain the normal 2 gold per day. Instead, he makes his money from jobs.
Cornell: Selects one person per night to protect from Wolves. If protecting himself and targeted by wolves, loses this ability. Also produces Wolfsbane, which anyone can buy from the AH for 4 gold. Wolfsbane protects its purchaser, for one night, from Werewolf nightkills and turns. If slain, the AH will stop selling Wolfsbane each day. If killed by the Greater Wolf, Cornell becomes a second Greater Wolf.
Julius Belmont (Vampire Hunter): Once per night, can target a player. If that player is a vampire, it melts. If that player is a wolf, nothing happens, but the Vampire Hunter is informed of the wolf. If a non-wolfpire is targeted, the vampire hunter must pay 4 gold to recharge his whip during the next night. i.e. The Hunter cannot whip the next night if he missed the previous night. The Vampire Hunter is immune to being turned, but can be nightkilled by vampires.
Vigilante: Can kill one player, once per game, at night.
Yoko Belnades: Can use her magic once per night to protect a target from both being killed or being turned. May also use her magic to instead rob another player of all items and gold once per game.
The Gravedigger: Once per game, can dig up someone's grave, gaining all gold and any items they had on them at the time of their death. After a night spent digging, there will be a public announcement that so and so's grave has been defiled, so everyone will know what items are back in the game.
Arikado: If both Julius (The Vampire Hunter) and Yoko are dead, Arikado reveals his true form, gaining the powers of both. Arikado cannot be turned by either team, dying instead.

THE WERETIGER

Weretiger: Team 4. An army of one. Wins the game whenever any victory condition is met, to the detriment of every other player. Can either scry like a seer at night, or kill. May only kill once per game.

THE AUCTION HOUSE

Sells Wolfsbane each turn for 4 gold as long as the Wolfsbaner is alive.

Also, sells three random items from a pool, each turn:

Seer's Glasses: Scry one target. Breaks after.
Teddy Bear: Prevents death, once.
Holy Cross: Can be used, publicly, once, on a target. If that target is a vampire, it melts. Also protects from being turned or killed by vampires while held, once.
Assassin's Blade: Can be used in the night, once, like a vigilante. Kills the target.
Star Power: Highest Bidder becomes invincible for 2 rounds. (Lynch still kills the owner.) This takes effect the night it is bought, the next day, the following night, and the day after that, for a total of 2 nights and 2 days.
Money Tree: Owner gains +3 gold per turn.
The Silvery Pendant Of Silver: This item works like the holy cross, but against wolves. Protects from a wolfkill, once.
CLOAK OF INVISIBILITY: The owner of this item always scries as an innocent with no powers. (And yes this hides the Weretiger :D :D :D) This effect does not fool the PI.
Voting Box: Gives the owner the power of the Mayor. (Vote counts for two.)
Thief's Glove: Gives the owner the power of the Thief. (Rob someone of all their gold and items during the night.)
Interceptor: RUFFRUFFRUFFRUFFRUFFWILD FANGRUFFRUFFRUFFRUFFRUFFRUFF (Land Mine. Next person who kills you also dies.)
Scry Sucking Crystal Ball: During the night, the owner of this item will recieve, at random, one of the results of the remaining scryer-type players. If there are no seer-types left alive, item is useless.
The Auction House: The owner of the actual AH can give me one item per night that they wish to see up for purchase the following day. The other items will be determined randomly as usual. Also, the income from the AH gives the owner +1 gold per day.
The Scry Reflector: The owner of this item will be notified of being scried, told exactly who scried him, and given the scry information of the person who scried him..
Dampening Field: Once per night, the owner of this item can target another player and shut down their night powers. This includes the use of any items. Once used on any particular player, that player becomes immune to this effect until one night has passed. (Meaning any one particular player can only be dampened once every other night.)
Fog Machine: Seers can't see anything the night it is used. Breaks after one use.
The Shovel: Owner gains the power of the gravedigger.
Last Will and Testament: User can "will" his items and gold to another player on death. This must be "written" before the user's death. All gold and items, except this one, are given to the player designated. This is public knowledge.
Watcher: Target one person at night. User will be informed of anyone who "visits" that person. A "visit" involves any power, item, or kill used.
Tracker: Target one person at night. User will be informed who that person "visits" that night.
Super Plush Bear: Same effect as Teddy Bear, protects you from a death and then breaks.
Nonhuman Seeking Scrier: Scries a random nonhuman.
The Mechanical Thief: This robotic manservant will go out and steal either a specific item from whoever has it, or rob the player who has the most gold, at the discretion of the highest bidder. If two or more players are tied for the highest gold, it is randomly determined who is robbed. The Mechanical Thief only does one job before breaking down.
Bomb: JC! A Bomb! If the owner of this item is lynched, (and only lynched, nightkills don't trigger) he may opt to kill a player of his choice before heading to his own grave.
Klingon Sword: Used on a target at night. The next day, your victim YOU, THE ONE WHO WAS SWORDED LAST NIGHT; EXPERIENCE BIJ! A player who is EXPERIENCING BIJ cannot vote. However, the sword has a 20% chance to cause a LOW LEVEL MALFUNCTION which are more common in this game than a Ferengi Starcruiser. If a LOW LEVEL MALFUNCTION occurs, one of three things will occur:
1. Everyone can vote, but nobody can talk other than that.
2. Only the holder of the sword can vote. Everyone can talk. One vote kill.
3. The person who should be EXPERIENCING BIJ instead gets a vote that counts for 3.
Air Bud: Immediately ends the day. No lynch, etc.

ADDITIONAL TT BRONTO MAFIA RULES

1. Posting out of thread is both permissible and encouraged. This goes for members of all factions, at any point in time (except for corpses). Please forward a copy of any out-of-thread communications to me, for the bubbly room/post game/GM's entertainment purposes. I'll provide relevant Quicktopic channels for each of the baddie factions, both for your sake and mine, but if PM communication is still your bag then have a blast.
4. No communication outside of the bubbly room once you're eliminated.
3. No screenshots of GM or player communications, in or out of thread.
4. No editing or deleting posts.
5. The game doesn't start until everyone checks in in-thread. So check in.
6. Be cool.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 02:39 PM
(I'm missing a couple of the more general rules (like the out-of-thread communication exception!!) but I need to go back to work so ... I'll iron those out later. Should be a standard list of day length and dead-talking rules, though.)

Mogri
10-15-2013, 02:49 PM
So... what does wolfsbane do?

Rules also mention a ninja twice, but he's never actually explained. This is perhaps thematically appropriate.

dtsund
10-15-2013, 02:58 PM
So... what does wolfsbane do?

If you buy Wolfsbane, you are immune to Werewolf kills and turns that night. The Baner (Cornell) can also confer this effect on someone for free. In past Bronto games, if the Baner blocks the Werewolves by protecting himself, he loses his power, but that rule seems not to be in effect here.

Rules also mention a ninja twice, but he's never actually explained. This is perhaps thematically appropriate.

Basically, insufficient editing from the original; Bronto games often have a Ninja that can flip out and suicide-kill another player (obviously only once). There are other changes from pure Bronto here; normally, the teddy bear items block lynches as well.

It wasn't clear in that post, but if the Weretiger (http://brontoforum.us/index.php?topic=6313.msg224183#msg224183) wins, everyone else loses.

Rufferto
10-15-2013, 03:04 PM
If we're pitching Bronto mafia, I'm going to withdraw my pitch, because I'd rather play that anyways.

Eden
10-15-2013, 03:10 PM
yeah right now I'm really digging Rufferto's pitch

Gerad
10-15-2013, 03:55 PM
So: so far we've got mine, breakman's, dtsund's, Torgo's, and gahitsu's? Is anyone else planning to pitch one this round? Mogri, are you pitching any of your recent entrants?

Mogri
10-15-2013, 04:03 PM
I'll probably repitch Loki's Wager next round. I consulted for Torgo's pitch anyway, so if you were really hoping I would pitch something, you can pretend I pitched that.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 04:22 PM
If we're pitching Bronto mafia, I'm going to withdraw my pitch, because I'd rather play that anyways.

You can still pitch yours! People might prefer yours to mine and you can still vote for my variation.

Also: sorry Mogri. I thought I checked for all those "this is so engrained in the meta that it doesn't bear explaining" but I guess those slipped through.

dtsund: I lifted these rules off of VvW 10, which was the latest iteration I could find. They do try to adjust for balance issues, even it being a clusterfuck of a ruleset, so I thought if I used the newest version that it'd be as equal as it could be (of course, they're adjust for their own meta, so ...).

aturtledoesbite
10-15-2013, 04:23 PM
I've never heard of this "bronto mafia" before.

I want to play it. Can we vote yet?

Egarwaen
10-15-2013, 05:25 PM
The Lucavi
Unknown to the town and even his fellows, one of the Shrine Knights holds a Zodiac Stone and has in fact been possessed by the Lucavi. If that Shrine Knight is still alive if and when the mafia achieve victory, he alone wins the game.

So, uh... I don't see anything in your rules saying that the Lucavi loses if he's dead and the mafia win.

FWIW, I think this totally dicks over the Mafia, as it completely ruins their ability to trust each other. They've somehow got to find and kill the Lucavi before they can win the game and they aren't guaranteed to get a role that will let them do so.

aturtledoesbite
10-15-2013, 05:27 PM
So, uh... I don't see anything in your rules saying that the Lucavi loses if he's dead and the mafia win.

The Lucavi
Unknown to the town and even his fellows, one of the Shrine Knights holds a Zodiac Stone and has in fact been possessed by the Lucavi. If that Shrine Knight is still alive if and when the mafia achieve victory, he alone wins the game.

Emphasis mine.

Egarwaen
10-15-2013, 05:39 PM
Emphasis mine.

Sure. But if he's dead does he lose? Normally in our games, mafia or town players who are dead when their team wins still win. If the Secret Boss breaks this rule it needs to be stated explicitly and clearly.

Rufferto
10-15-2013, 05:53 PM
You can still pitch yours! People might prefer yours to mine and you can still vote for my variation.

Ehh. I wouldn't want to have a pitch up if I were actively hoping it would lose to play in another game. This pitch actually gave me an idea for a different game, though. I'll run the new idea next game cycle.

Mogri
10-15-2013, 06:07 PM
So, uh... I don't see anything in your rules saying that the Lucavi loses if he's dead and the mafia win.

FWIW, I think this totally dicks over the Mafia, as it completely ruins their ability to trust each other. They've somehow got to find and kill the Lucavi before they can win the game and they aren't guaranteed to get a role that will let them do so.

My original suggestion made the Lucavi need to win alone. It makes it a very hard role to play, but that is the way with secret bosses. He also got some bonus abilities to compensate.

Red Hedgehog
10-15-2013, 06:11 PM
So: so far we've got mine, breakman's, dtsund's, Torgo's, and gahitsu's? Is anyone else planning to pitch one this round? Mogri, are you pitching any of your recent entrants?

Give me until tomorrow to see if I can put my pitch together. If I don't get it out by then, it ain't happening.

McClain
10-15-2013, 06:14 PM
I wish I had the time to play a clusterfuck rules game. Or any mafia, for that matter.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 06:34 PM
For my rules, and considering access to Hammertime, how do you feel about straight 48-hour days?

Also, I've updated my rules a tad bit (re: wolfbane etc).

Gerad
10-15-2013, 06:42 PM
For my rules, and considering access to Hammertime, how do you feel about straight 48-hour days?

Also, I've updated my rules a tad bit (re: wolfbane etc).

I say give it a try and we'll see if it works! No harm in trying. Your game is going to be nuts as it is; it seems like the type where nobody but the secret boss knows what's going on until it's over.

dtsund
10-15-2013, 09:52 PM
it seems like the type where nobody but the secret boss knows what's going on until it's over.

In my experience, the opposite is true; last time I played, most of the gamestate was public knowledge on the last few days, with the Vampires clinging desperately to the last few secrets they had (particularly that I was not only one of them but, in fact, Dracula 2.0) and the Town, Weretiger, Vampires, and Werewolves all trying to play the other three factions against each other.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 09:58 PM
In my experience, the opposite is true; last time I played, most of the gamestate was public knowledge on the last few days, with the Vampires clinging desperately to the last few secrets they had (particularly that I was not only one of them but, in fact, Dracula 2.0) and the Town, Weretiger, Vampires, and Werewolves all trying to play the other three factions against each other.

Yeah. Also that particular game is how dtsund and I became Mafia nemeses. (NEVER FORGET)

I didn't want to comment for fear of poisoning my own well, but for clarification: the Weretiger does not start with any special information that the Town wouldn't also know. The scry helps make up for that, but Tigger is not going to be especially informed, unless there's some weird back-room information trading going on (and anyone can do that).

Rufferto
10-15-2013, 10:37 PM
...I remember that now. I'm pretty sure I had that game on lockdown until the last werewolf, Envy, (A player of ill repute) threw the game just to spite me.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 11:14 PM
...I remember that now. I'm pretty sure I had that game on lockdown until the last werewolf, Envy, (A player of ill repute) threw the game just to spite me.

That's gotta be a different game because we the werewolves (I was the Vampire Hunter who got turned) lost pretty epically against dtsund and his army of darkness. I can't think of a game Envy threw but it might have just been one of the many games I didn't play.

PS he's here on Talking Time too. Which Bronto are you?

Rufferto
10-15-2013, 11:29 PM
Nah, that was the right game. Envy killed me on the final day so I couldn't win as the weretiger. Killing me also lost him the game.

My alias over there is Friend.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 11:31 PM
Nah, that was the right game. Envy killed me on the final day so I couldn't win as the weretiger. Killing me also lost him the game.

My alias over there is Friend.

Oooooh, right, I forgot about that. Also yo~.

dtsund
10-15-2013, 11:33 PM
My alias over there is Friend.

All this time I didn't know you were the one who convinced Stush and Lee-Ham to lynch friggin' confirmed-innocent Frankenstein again.

Rufferto
10-15-2013, 11:35 PM
Yeah, I'm pretty great.

gahitsu
10-15-2013, 11:37 PM
All this time I didn't know you were the one who convinced Stush and Lee-Ham to lynch friggin' confirmed-innocent Frankenstein again.

Jesus, that was beautiful.

dtsund
10-15-2013, 11:42 PM
I don't think Stush is reading this, so I'll say it out loud here: I was reluctant to convert him at the end for the win. Lynching Lee-Ham was so monumentally dumb that I didn't want to let him on the winning team. But I had no choice.

gahitsu
10-16-2013, 02:25 AM
This is an FAQ from a Wolfpire game and since I'm just stealing their rules wholesale verbatim, I might as well steal this too! (Pertinent information re: pitch)

Q: If the Weretiger wins, does everyone else lose?
A: Yes.

Q: If The Vampires and the Wolves target the same person during the night, what happens? Does the target become some kind of monster wolf/vampire hybrid?
A: Nope. Night Priority (outside of items) is Wolves > Vampires > Other Kills > Other effects. Meaning, the Wolves act first, so the vampires would arrive the same night to find only a dead corpse, wasting their turn. Or, if the wolves used that night to TURN their target, and the vampires did the same, bad luck for the vamp, because he just bit into a wolf, which kills him. (And the newly minted wolf.)

Q: Can I bid on two items at once?
A: Yes. But you'll have to split your money. You can't bid all your money on both items, hoping to win at least one if you're outbid on another.

Q: If I scry a player who dies that same night, do I get to rescry?
A: No. Although normally this is impossible during a *real* game of wolf, I have decided that making it possible for seer-types to waste their turn is good for game balance.

Q: So, who can the Weretiger be?
A: Literally, anyone. It is the last role I roll, and overlaps with EVERYTHING. So it's entirely possible for the Weretiger to be either Dracula or just a plain innocent with no other powers.

Q: If I'm a seer type, and I have an item that also is used for scrying, can I do two scries in the same night?
A: Yep.

Q: When can I bid on the AH?
A: The AH is open during the day and the following night. Once I update, the items for sale are gone, so get your bid in before that.

Q: If I lose the bid on my item, do I lose my gold, too?
A: No. I will only send you a PM if you win the item. If you receive no PM, assume you lost the bid and your money was returned.

Q: What happens if there is a tie in the bids for an item?
A: I roll it off.

Q: Can I trade an item to a team mate/another player?
A: No. However, thief abilities might be able to set up a trade intentionally.

Q: Can I send PMs to my team mates/people I have scried and wish to share information with?
A: Sure. Just make sure you include me in any and all Private Messaging. Also, be aware that information sharing can be very, very dangerous, especially if you're the Seer. All it takes is one of your circle being turned to drop the entire group into Vampire hands.

Q: Help! I don't know how much gold I have!
A: I keep track of everyone's current gold. If you're curious, just ask me in PM and I'll tell you. If you want to keep track yourself, you start with 10 and gain 2 per day, unless your role/items dictate otherwise.

Q: If I am robbed, will I know it/who did it?
A: You'll know you were robbed. Who did it, however, will remain a mystery.

Q: How many wolves and vampires are in the game?
A: It varies depending on the total number of players. However, you can safely bet on about 1/3 of the players being evil at the start. This may seem high to you, but remember that the Wolves and Vampires also fight each other, and frequently use their kills and powers likewise.

Q: Is the PI compelled to accept the highest Bidder's job?
A: Nope. He can even opt to take no job at all. But since his only source of income is working, bidding high will increase your chances of getting him to work for you.

Q: If the PI is turned, can we just use him as an additional seer-type?
A: Yes, sort of. The PI has professional pride and won't work for free, even if he's a vampire or werewolf, so you'll have to still "bid" at least 1 gold. Also keep in mind the PI may receive higher offers from other players and may opt to accept those jobs instead of a team job.

Q: What happens if a player has a death shield (teddy bear) and is turned?
A: Sadly, Teddy Bears do not protect you against being turned.

Q: Do I have to use items I win right away, or can I save them?
A: It depends on the item, but usually yes, it's your choice when to use an item. If you want to use it the same night you win it, you need to stipulate as such (and who the target is, etc) with your bid.

Q: Just to clarify, seer-types go after vampires/wolves right? So if the person I scried had been turned the same night I'd have seen it?
A: Yes. Seers see all changes that occur that night. They go dead last, even if the scry comes from an item. You will always scry the target "as they exist in the morning" so to speak.

Q: Can I stockpile wolfsbane? How does it work?
A: Wolfsbane is an item you can buy if the baner is still alive. It works for that same night you bought it as if you were being protected by the baner. (Which means it blocks their attempts to kill you or turn you, but not a wolf using an item on you.) You can't stockpile it, and it only lasts for one night. However, if the baner is still alive, you can continue to buy it every night as long as you have enough gold.

Q: If the greater werewolf "kills" the wolfsbaner, does the auction house still sell wolfsbane?
A: Nope! And since there won't be a dead wolfsbaner, everyone will know you're now dealing with two G. Wolves.

Q: Does the scry reflector also apply to the PI's "scry"?
A: Yep!

Eden
10-16-2013, 01:08 PM
I'm working on a variant I came up with a few months ago. I'll make a complete pitch in the next few days, but the basic premise is that power roles are assigned before determining alignment. In other words, you can have "corrupt" power roles.

breakman
10-16-2013, 03:41 PM
Since there now doesn't seem to be a limit on how crazy these things can be, here's some of what I changed/removed from my original idea (it still might not actually work though):

Replace this:

The game ends when, at the start or end of a Day, one faction makes up half or more of the living players.

with

At the end of each Day, after the lynch, is a Scoring Phase. The faction with the most living players scores 1 point (the lynched player's faction is not eligible that Day, however, even if they still have the most living players). If there is a tie, no points are awarded. The game ends when one faction has 3 points. If, at any time, the Secret Bosses could split off from their respective factions, and equal the numbers of the faction with the most players, the game ends in a Secret Boss victory.

Also, some power roles could have Day powers in addition to their regular Night powers. This could be done with or without the above victory condition changes, but in the former case, they could include powers that affect scoring.

However, all Day powers are activated in the same way, which is by publicly announcing them. Players would not need to be selected by their Opinion Leader to use Day powers.

gahitsu
10-16-2013, 10:37 PM
Redge, you there?

Torgo
10-17-2013, 03:28 AM
FWIW, I think this totally dicks over the Mafia, as it completely ruins their ability to trust each other. They've somehow got to find and kill the Lucavi before they can win the game and they aren't guaranteed to get a role that will let them do so.
I'm pretty married to one of the Shrine Knights holding the Stone, but in the event of lower turnout I'd probably scrap the Lucavi altogether, or change it to one random player of either team. As is I don't see it working without a goodly number of players, and in turn a decent sized mafia team. Also, the Mime doesn't reveal the holder of the Zodiac Stone. Job or affiliation, player's choice.

Maybe go with a more standard "Lucavi wins if he's still alive when either team fulfills its win condition" line? What say you, Talking Time?

Red Hedgehog
10-17-2013, 09:07 AM
Redge, you there?

Sorry, got a lot on my plate. If people are itching to vote, I don't want to hold it up.

Egarwaen
10-17-2013, 03:23 PM
I'm pretty married to one of the Shrine Knights holding the Stone, but in the event of lower turnout I'd probably scrap the Lucavi altogether, or change it to one random player of either team. As is I don't see it working without a goodly number of players, and in turn a decent sized mafia team. Also, the Mime doesn't reveal the holder of the Zodiac Stone. Job or affiliation, player's choice.

Maybe go with a more standard "Lucavi wins if he's still alive when either team fulfills its win condition" line? What say you, Talking Time?

I still think it puts the mafia in a next-to-impossible position, vis-a-vis winning. They have to win while hoping that the town eliminates the secret boss for them, as they have no way of doing so themselves and cannot trust other mafia members, since any one of them could be the Lucavi attempting to steer them towards a secret boss win.

Mogri
10-17-2013, 04:06 PM
I still think it puts the mafia in a next-to-impossible position, vis-a-vis winning. They have to win while hoping that the town eliminates the secret boss for them, as they have no way of doing so themselves and cannot trust other mafia members, since any one of them could be the Lucavi attempting to steer them towards a secret boss win.

That may be true at the start of the game, but when there are two Mafia players left, it will be fairly obvious which one is which.

There would need to be some rule in place to determine the nightkill in case of split votes. My suggestion: randomly pick between the winners. If the Lucavi's vote is chosen, reroll. If the Lucavi's vote is chosen again, go with it. This allows some stealth detective work and prevents the Lucavi from winning outright in the 1v1 scenario. (This assumes the Lucavi has other powers that will prevent him from automatically losing the 1v1.)

Egarwaen
10-17-2013, 04:13 PM
That may be true at the start of the game, but when there are two Mafia players left, it will be fairly obvious which one is which.

So, instead, the mafia are punished for playing well, since if they get down to the end of the game and have more than 2 players left, they've got to sabotage themselves to win?

Eden
10-17-2013, 05:12 PM
So I forgot I had a 1250-word paper due Monday on something I haven't read yet. I'll make the pitch next time

Rufferto
10-17-2013, 06:01 PM
So, instead, the mafia are punished for playing well, since if they get down to the end of the game and have more than 2 players left, they've got to sabotage themselves to win?

Pretty simple fix; just give the mafia more members than they would get normally. The mafia players would be forced into a winning state earlier and thus would have to start jettisoning members earlier on. You'd essentially have a mafia game within a mafia game.

Mogri
10-17-2013, 06:02 PM
So, instead, the mafia are punished for playing well, since if they get down to the end of the game and have more than 2 players left, they've got to sabotage themselves to win?

You could say the same for the town and a regular secret boss.

Bear in mind that I still think the Lucavi should have to win alone, with no other Mafia remaining. If the Lucavi wins just by surviving until someone else does, it's much less balanced.

Solitayre
10-17-2013, 06:09 PM
I honestly don't see any way the Lucavi can work. If you have a mafia that is fighting amongst itself they're probably going to lose.

Mogri
10-17-2013, 06:11 PM
I honestly don't see any way the Lucavi can work. If you have a mafia that is fighting amongst itself they're probably going to lose.

Then you balance around that, like Rufferto said.

Solitayre
10-17-2013, 06:14 PM
Well, if the Lucavi wins when the mafia wins he has no incentive to work against their goals. So really the mafia just have one member of their team where they lose if he's still alive for no real reason. It's not like he has to try to push his own agenda.

How would you tell who it is?

Rufferto
10-17-2013, 06:19 PM
You make educated hypotheses.

If you were looking for the investigator, how would you distinguish them from a normal player?

botticus
10-17-2013, 06:23 PM
But the Lucavi has the same goal as the mafia; he won't be providing questionable arguments, being quiet during night chat to avoid outing himself or drawing attention. The town inspector will be actively (passively?) attempting to avoid being killed. The Lucavi will want to avoid being lynched too, but so will all the other mafia.

I don't really know that this is much different than the traditional secret boss, other than in the traditional scenario he has to avoid both lynches and nightkills. But if the town plays really well there, they'd also have to start targeting people they didn't necessarily think were mafia before they killed all of them.

Speaking of secret bosses, where did Javex go?

Rufferto
10-17-2013, 06:33 PM
But the Lucavi has the same goal as the mafia; he won't be providing questionable arguments, being quiet during night chat to avoid outing himself or drawing attention. The town inspector will be actively (passively?) attempting to avoid being killed. The Lucavi will want to avoid being lynched too, but so will all the other mafia.

Right, but it's still the same parallel to the investigator/town.
The investigator will actively/passively attempt to avoid being night killed.
But it's not as if the rest of the town will be like, "Hey, let me be next in line for the night kill."

Egarwaen
10-17-2013, 07:03 PM
You could say the same for the town and a regular secret boss.

Absolutely not. A regular secret boss game is simply a multi-mafia game with one of the mafias of size 1. "Mafia" and "town" aren't so simply interchangeable; their differing starting information (mafia know their teammates and can communicate in secret) mean they've got to be dealt with very differently.

The investigator argument's also a poor one; the town aren't trying to find the investigator; if anything, they're trying to avoid doing anything that might find the investigator, so their objectives are aligned.

Further, as mentioned, the only way for the mafia to kill the Mafia Secret Boss is to either start night-killing each other or start trying to lynch each other, which is very quickly going to turn into "mafia loses".

aturtledoesbite
10-17-2013, 07:22 PM
There's a simple fix here. Make the Lucavi a traditional Secret Boss; i.e., not a mafia member.

Egarwaen
10-17-2013, 07:48 PM
There's a simple fix here. Make the Lucavi a traditional Secret Boss; i.e., not a mafia member.

Absolutely. If you really want to give them an edge / flavor, give them access to the mafia nightchat and allow them to post there under the pseudonym "Lucavi", perhaps with some min / max limits to ensure they don't go totally quiet or on a spamathon?

Rufferto
10-17-2013, 07:50 PM
The investigator argument's also a poor one; the town aren't trying to find the investigator; if anything, they're trying to avoid doing anything that might find the investigator, so their objectives are aligned.

Why would the town be looking for the investigator? The mafia are looking for the investigator, who is trying to hide from mafia behind a wall of town players. Likewise, the mafia are looking for the Lucavi, who is hiding behind a wall of mafia players. Ergo, determining which player is the Lucavi is about as difficult as determining which player is the investigator, far from the impossible case Solitayre makes it out to be. I'm not sure what argument you thought I was making here, but to me, it makes sense as a response to Solitayre's question:

How would you tell who it is?





Further, as mentioned, the only way for the mafia to kill the Mafia Secret Boss is to either start night-killing each other or start trying to lynch each other, which is very quickly going to turn into "mafia loses".

Well... obviously. That's why you give them extra players to compensate. I think it would be interesting how it would affect the dynamic of that game, in that the town would know the mafia would be seeded among the loud players, Since they would be trying to kill other mafia players. It makes it hard to distinguish a good town player and mafia looking for their secret boss.

Mogri
10-17-2013, 08:03 PM
Well, if the Lucavi wins when the mafia wins he has no incentive to work against their goals. So really the mafia just have one member of their team where they lose if he's still alive for no real reason. It's not like he has to try to push his own agenda.

Like I said, this works best when he has to be the sole surviving Mafia (meaning the game doesn't end until the Lucavi wins or dies).

Solitayre
10-17-2013, 08:19 PM
Like I said, this works best when he has to be the sole surviving Mafia (meaning the game doesn't end until the Lucavi wins or dies).

If the Lucavi knows who all the mafia are but doesn't share a win condition with them, that's a pretty huge problem.

He could sell out the entire mafia, which could be awesome, but probably wouldn't be very fun for the mafia.

Mogri
10-17-2013, 08:33 PM
If the Lucavi knows who all the mafia are but doesn't share a win condition with them, that's a pretty huge problem.

He could sell out the entire mafia, which could be awesome, but probably wouldn't be very fun for the mafia.

That would get him killed very quickly, though. A+ trolling, but not actually a good strategy.

Solitayre
10-17-2013, 08:49 PM
My concern is maybe the Lucavi is about to get lynched and is a sore loser and decides to screw over the mob for the lulz.

Egarwaen
10-17-2013, 09:03 PM
Well... obviously. That's why you give them extra players to compensate. I think it would be interesting how it would affect the dynamic of that game, in that the town would know the mafia would be seeded among the loud players, Since they would be trying to kill other mafia players. It makes it hard to distinguish a good town player and mafia looking for their secret boss.

The more people you give the mafia, the worse it gets. If they've got, say, five players and one of them's the Secret Boss, then they have a relatively good chance of killing him if they randomly pick one of their members and off him. The more mafia you give them, the worse it gets.

Rufferto
10-17-2013, 09:33 PM
The more people you give the town, the worse it gets. If they've got, say, five players and one of them's the mafia, then they have a relatively good chance of killing him if they randomly pick one of their members and off him. The more players you give them, the worse it gets.

Mogri
10-17-2013, 09:41 PM
I've seen the Mafia secret boss role work elsewhere. Does it disadvantage the Mafia? Sure. Can he be a sore loser and ruin the game? Yeah, just like anyone on the Mafia team. Can you balance the game to make it fair for both factions without totally screwing over the secret boss? Absolutely.

PrivateJoker
10-17-2013, 09:54 PM
My concern is maybe the Lucavi is about to get lynched and is a sore loser and decides to screw over the mob for the lulz.

Isn't the more likely scenario that the town would let the lucavi live, in exchange for him selling out the rest of the mafia?

:derp:

breakman
10-17-2013, 10:07 PM
I suppose you could have the mafia post in nightchat using only their role names, leaving it up to them to hide their identities from the Lucavi.

Destil
10-17-2013, 10:44 PM
My concern is maybe the Lucavi is about to get lynched and is a sore loser and decides to screw over the mob for the lulz.

Has this ever been an actual problem in a game? Wormrider almost did it that one time, and it only required a very gentle nudge from the GM (me) to prevent it.

We don't really need rules safeguards about that sort of thing, historically, we're pretty much self-policing. You'd get a ban for a few games at least for pulling it.

Yimothy
10-17-2013, 11:55 PM
I sort of did that once. I was secret boss and pretty much boned and told the town everything I knew with no real hope of it saving me. Of course, nobody believed me so it wasn't too bad. Also I didn't know who all the mafia were.

Eden
10-18-2013, 01:26 AM
What about just having the mafia chat read:

Mafia1
Mafia2
Mafia3
...
Lucavi

And have the mafia members be separately PMed with a who's who? That way the mafia members know who's talking and it effectively functions as a normal mafia nightchat for the mafia, but the Lucavi is allowed to participate without being given gamebreaking information.

WormRider
10-18-2013, 07:20 AM
Has this ever been an actual problem in a game? Wormrider almost did it that one time, and it only required a very gentle nudge from the GM (me) to prevent it.


Hey, that was just keeping my words! ;)

It was at the end of Day 1, I wouldn't be thinking that I was losing. It was just a matter of consistency.

Mogri
10-18-2013, 10:20 AM
What about just having the mafia chat read:

Mafia1
Mafia2
Mafia3
...
Lucavi

And have the mafia members be separately PMed with a who's who? That way the mafia members know who's talking and it effectively functions as a normal mafia nightchat for the mafia, but the Lucavi is allowed to participate without being given gamebreaking information.

Night 1
Mafia 1: Who does everyone think we should lynch? I think we should lynch McClain.
Mafia 2: No way. Let's lynch Nich.
Lucavi: I think we should lynch Eden.
Mafia 1: Shut up.
Mafia 2: Shut up.
Mafia 3: Hey! I'm Eden.

Solitayre
10-18-2013, 10:26 AM
Again, and I've said this before, but I feel like when you have to make rules and contingencies and workarounds to try to balance for the mechanics of your ruleset, it's a sign that the ruleset isn't balanced and probably doesn't work.

Mogri
10-18-2013, 10:31 AM
Again, and I've said this before, but you don't actually have to do any of that. You're trying to solve a problem that's not there.

Egarwaen
10-18-2013, 11:14 AM
I've seen the Mafia secret boss role work elsewhere.

What do you mean by "work"? Do you mean "the town won but the mafia had fun"? Do you mean the Mafia Secret Boss won? Do you mean the town eliminated the Secret Boss for the Mafia? Do you mean the mafia eliminated the secret boss from their own number using nightkills? Your statement is meaningless.

Gerad
10-18-2013, 11:34 AM
Are we getting close to ready to vote?

This balance discussion is fine and all, but I think at some point Torgo is just going to have to decide which way his game works, and then anybody on the other side of the argument can vote for it or not depending on whether they'd still be willing to play it.

breakman
10-18-2013, 11:39 AM
Night 1
Mafia 1: Who does everyone think we should lynch? I think we should lynch McClain.
Mafia 2: No way. Let's lynch Nich.
Lucavi: I think we should lynch Eden.
Mafia 1: Shut up.
Mafia 2: Shut up.
Mafia 3: Hey! I'm Eden.

That's a pretty specific example though. No one else would make that mistake. (jk Eden)

I think it would be interesting for the mafia to have to be careful with what they say like that, though. Even more so if they only knew who was on their team, and not which one was which.

Mogri
10-18-2013, 12:08 PM
What do you mean by "work"? Do you mean "the town won but the mafia had fun"? Do you mean the Mafia Secret Boss won? Do you mean the town eliminated the Secret Boss for the Mafia? Do you mean the mafia eliminated the secret boss from their own number using nightkills? Your statement is meaningless.

As stated in that same post:
Can you balance the game to make it fair for both factions without totally screwing over the secret boss? Absolutely.

Your skepticism is understandable. This is a setup that TT has not tried yet. It has been done elsewhere, though, more than once, and it's not as devastating to the Mafia team as you make it sound.

Are we getting close to ready to vote?

This balance discussion is fine and all, but I think at some point Torgo is just going to have to decide which way his game works, and then anybody on the other side of the argument can vote for it or not depending on whether they'd still be willing to play it.

This is what it really comes down to, though. It's Torgo's ruleset, and he hasn't clarified the Lucavi rules.

Torgo
10-20-2013, 12:13 AM
How about this:

Lucavi Rules
On night 3, one randomly-chosen player from either team will "find" the Zodiac Stone and become the Lucavi. He loses his job ability, but gains two night kills that he may use at his discretion. He may only use one night kill per night. To win, the Lucavi must be the last remaining player standing. The Lucavi will ID as such upon investigation or death.

(And before you ask, yes, the Lucavi may kill himself. If it's good enough for Hashmalum, it's good enough for us.)

Anyway:


The mafia get to start the game knowing that all their teammates are on the up-and-up.
Everyone has a shift in behavior to keep an eye out for.
Able to detect (assuming the Mime doesn't find the Stone).
Better win odds for the Secret Boss. He's guaranteed to appear, but with no chance of death early.


I'd also wonder how it might effect role claiming and ability use, since it effectively works as a job change. Which is also something else the mafia can look out for: A teammate BS'ing them about his class.

gahitsu
10-21-2013, 02:08 PM
With Torgo's rules clarification, are we ready to vote?

Solitayre
10-21-2013, 02:11 PM
gahitsu wants her mafia times.

Gerad
10-21-2013, 03:43 PM
With Torgo's rules clarification, are we ready to vote?

I say so!

How's about this: if no one chimes in asking for a few more days by tomorrow night, we start the poll then.