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PapillonReel
04-05-2010, 02:18 AM
http://i863.photobucket.com/albums/ab194/PapillonReel3/original_image.png

Friends! Tyrants! Countrymen! Lend me your ears!

This month, we are about to embark on a new era of forum games. With the conclusion of the East and West mafia games, we have learned much of the intricacies of the current ruleset - and much to our dismay, we have learned just how broken it really is! Angels roam the streets boldly, confident that they will be safeguarded by the Citizenry during the day and that the love of their Lord will protect them during the night. Vigilantes gun down Citizenry by the half-dozens, and not only gloat on the laundry list of names they call their victims but actively use it to buy the support of the town. Inspectors dig hard and deep into the village's history, and their digests and inspections lead the Citizenry to burn the village to its very foundation until the Mafia have no where left to hide. Each of these men have taken to twisting these games around them until it becomes yet another round of Superheroes vs. the Mafia instead of the game of intrigue we had hoped it to become.

However, there are those that plan to bring balance to the game by removing some or all of these roles from the game, or by depowering them into irrelevance! While I do believe that a little bit of either will be necessary for the longevity of the game in the long term, and while such action may indeed bring about an experience differing from the two games we have played so far, I do not believe it is the right course of action we must take at the moment! Even with its most glaring flaws, we must try and plumb the depths of the current ruleset to try and find that diamond in the rough we have so long saught for, that game of paranoia and intrigue that we have all deep down wished to play. Only once we have pushed the core game to its utmost limits will we truly know how to expand into variants unexplored and lands unknown, what to look for when changing the very foundation of the game we have long played.

For the game that I wish to run, I wish to balance the current roles to the best of my ability by making the following changes to the game:

•Establishment of a Saboteur role, in order to counter the Angel and Vigilante double-threat. With the ability to remove their powers at a moment's notice, they will keep these two powers in check not only practically, but psychologically as well by giving them disincentive to reveal themselves to the general public. By keeping them out of the public eye, the game will return back to the atmosphere of paranoia and fear that we have all longed for.

•Harsh time limits imposed on day time activity as well as relaxations for the nighttime phase, both set toward a 72 hour time frame. In the past, the Citizenry have often taken advantage of the peculiar nature of Italian time-keeping, using their powers of indecision to stall out the daytime beyond the limits of physics. My hope is that, by putting a stopper on how long discussion may last and bringing the flow of the game back into the realms of modern physics, we will encourage players to be more bold in their decision-making and take more of a stand in daytime affairs.

•Increased opaqueness in Role distribution. Some say that probability and numbers are a natural part of any game - no matter what the outcome, there is always a certain chance of things swinging one way or the next depending on how events turn out. However, with role distribution known as it has been before, numbers have taken an increasing role in how daytime discussion and play has been made and many have called for the means to dampen that. By keeping the Dramatis Personae of the games (so-to speak) a secret to those playing, the focus of the game will be kept not on who is still playing the game, but on how it is played and how players react.

•Allowance of nighttime correspondence amongst the Citizenry, with coalitions forged at their own risk. Before my fellow candidates can latch onto this to try and use it against me, I will credit my rival, spineshark for the idea - though we may be opponents in the political arena, we are both like in mind and have fought alongside each other in previous Mafia rounds. As such, I must agree that nighttime communication would add some mystery to the game, allowing citizenry to forge personal alliances as well as giving the Mafia the means to influence the town further. All messages must be cleared by the Moderator however, in order to prevent any wide-scale cheating, but otherwise the ball lies firmly in the player's court. Actually, never mind that. Now that I see it on paper, I'm not really that keen on the idea.

•Rebalancing to the Angel and Inspector, limiting self-protection to one shot in the former while requiring two days to complete an inspection for the latter. These two power-players are arguably the most dangerous roles in the game, and with good reason. Though alone they may not be all that dangerous, the former lending its protection either to themselves or trustworthy Citizens while the latter would have to sacrifice himself post-reveal without any back-up, together they form an offensive core that rivals that of even the legendary Tyranitar/Garchomp duo, blasting away at the Mafia's hiding spots while being able to outlast even the most grizzled and wily player. Twice now, the Mafia have been forced to surrender at the threat of a drawn-out and painful loss - both in round 1 when Brickroad was at the helm and in Mafia West when Nich took over - and it would be unsporting to not give the Mafia the means to fight on until the bitter end. By powering down these two key players enough that they function less efficiently, it will help bring the game's balance back to a more manageable level.

•Activity checks on the first day, followed by one after any days that end before definitive action has been taken with any problematic players removed from the game. My friends, though it pains me to say so, it is time we take a hard stance on those who do not take part in the game to their utmost ability. In the past, certain players have taken to dropping out of the game at a moment's notice, often either delaying the game so they can act on their own leisure or not even showing up at all! Though exceptions may be made at the behest of those polite enough to let us know ahead of time, any player who fails an activity check will be removed from play so that the game may continue at the pace decided by those still participating.

Mafia is a complex game requiring constant supervision and maintenance in order to keep the game running at optimal efficiency. Though I might not be the most skillful writer or the most cunning strategist, careful and effective management is my area of expertise and I believe that I can run a game that all of you would be proud to be a part of. By voting for me, you'll be voting for a balanced game and a better tomorrow, and that is something I believe we can all get behind.

Vote for what's best for Mafia. Vote PapillonReel.

- - -

Any of the above nominees may now feel free to post their campaign speeches in order to try and win votes for their rulesets. As for participation in the next game, just post "I WANT TO PLAY" before the week is up and you'll have the chance to take part in the game of a lifetime, no matter the outcome! Buy Mafia bonds and support your local forum games today!

Mafia 3 Roster:
•Bongo Bill
•Brickroad
•Byron
•Calorie Mate
•Chady
•Comb Stranger
•demonkoala
•Destil
•dtsund
•Eddie
•fanboymaster
•Garrison
•The Giant Head
•kaisel
•Kayma
•Loki
•McDohl
•Merus
•Mr. J
•namelessentity
•Nich
•Nodal
•PapillonReel
•Paul le Fou
•Phantoon
•Queen Possum
•Rai
•spineshark
•ThornGhost
•Tock
•Umby
•vaterite

Destil
04-05-2010, 02:48 AM
You're going to hear a lot about rules and balance this election. Here's something my opponents may not want you to hear: I have a team of highly trained, well built, expertly programed robots. And with their help I've devised the following rule set, whwill provide you with the perfect mafia game.

http://www.destil.org/campaign.png

I believe we all agree that the core of the game is the best part. And that the existing 'block' strategy is boring and optimal. Therefore, the primary goal of my rules is to remove the block building by preventing the ability of the players, as a whole, to learn that someone is a citizen while alive.

Turn Length: Day is limited to 72 hours. Someone is first accused within the last 24 hours of the day will, however, be allowed 24 hours to make a defense post, that they may not be killed while offline without reprise. If no majority vote is reached the person with the most votes will be lynched, unless there are sufficient 'lynch no one' votes (ties are decided at random by the GM). Night will last at least 24 hours, but can be extended at request of the mafia, to a maximum of 72 hours.

Roles: The game will have an Inspector, an Oracle and a Coroner. These are the core roles that allow the citizens to learn information. In addition several other roles are randomly added to the game. The number of mafia present will be unknown. There will be at least one 'protection' role added for the citizens, though not as powerful as a conventional angel. 'Role-Blockers' will most likely not be included, as the fun of being given a special role should remain. There will be at least one mafia-allied 'random' role with special powers, possibly more. None will be particularly powerful, but something like giving the mafia the ability to convert one person once in favor of a night kill, or to learn the roles of people they kill in some limited way, or inspecting as innocent. All of my roles will be simple and playable, the rules for any would fit in large font on a business card. The goal is to keep the game's core in tact, and perhaps try out something a little weird but not super powerful or complex.

Potentially overpowered roles will largely be depowered through subtle nerfs. Angel like roles will at the least not be able to self-protect or will only get one shot of protection, vigilantes will have limited kills or delayed kills et cetera.

The core of the game will be the citizens. Roles, especially citizen roles, with minor powers don't play well with the lynch framework presented. There will possibly be one or two individuals with special/different victory conditions, but nothing severe like the serial killer. More like a mafiasto who can only win if they're alive at the end of the game who may therefore feel compelled to sell out his own.

Lynching: Lynching happens after a majority vote is reached and the accused has had at least 24 hours since their defense post, or at the end of the day if no majority is reached. Players can always choose to 'Lynch No One.' A lynched player's status will only be revealed as 'Citizen' or 'Night Owl' (any other role). The coroner learns the role of every player lynched. In this way, the citizens will need to determine for themselves if someone is really who they claim. Revealing the alliance of the player is all but the same thing as revealing their role if someone clams one. Citizens can hold their heads high due to their 'special ability' to be the only source of conformable information in the game.

Night Deaths: The players learn who the mafia targets on any given night; if anyone else ends up dead they do not learn the cause. They also learn if the mafia's attack was prevented and if so who the intended victim was. The oracle learns the role of anyone killed at night, and the role of the attacker if they are not the mafia. The mafia may or may not learn the identity of who they kill, depending on special mafia roles.

Day One: Finally, I wish to increase tension on the first day. If the citizens choose to lynch no one the mafia will gain some information related to the random citizen roles added to the game, but the players do not know what this information is or how it is given the mafia (feeling confident that they have this little town under foot they can eek out a lot more information during the first night with no fear of reprisal). This prevents the supposedly 'optimal' play of accusing no one, and forces people who make that vote to do so at their own risk.

Inactive Players: And as my opponent has mentioned, those among us without the will (or free time) to carry on the good fight have held the remainder of us back. Regardless of their best intentions. While I too would eject such players from the game (anyone who has not posted over a single one day period), I also have the option of sending a team of robots with laser swords to their home, 'encouraging' them in ways my opponents can not.

Game Size: I'd split a large game in two, but I'd like a good number of players in each game. A larger game lets me expand the unknown roles a little while maintaining a good number of citizens.

So remember. Vote for paranoia. Vote for the unknown. Vote for balance and an open door to a bold mafia, and pray you have the courage and wit to see through their deceptions.

Vote for the robots.

EDIT: After recalibrating the slacker matrix, the robots and I saw the need for an explicit inactive player rule.
EDIT2: Further robo-revisions. I didn't post my full thoughts on the random roles bit, which is a pretty big part of this design, to try and maintain the mystery. However you have the right to know what you're voting for.

Paul le Fou
04-05-2010, 05:40 AM
Who is excited for Mafia Times?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v708/AshfieldGray/mafiatimes.jpg

You're goddamn right I am.


So, the big edits: Angel and Vigilante are in my crosshairs. I don't like them because these action roles take the emphasis away from information and bluffing and lying and put them on relatively arbitrary game mechanics. Shell games and numbers hurt the game, I think. They also make it somewhat easy to confirm information to the citizens, which I view as a negative as it removes large chunks of the paranoia and uncertainty so central to the game.

So, the Angel will either
~Most likely: Be removed entirely
~Change to Bodyguard status where they die after a successful protection
Pros: removes the emphasis, makes their single important decision very strategic. Cons: might not be fun to play as someone whose reward for canny play is death.
~Change to lose their powers after a successful protection.
Cons: with nothing to lose, a depowered angel can come out and effectively act as a confirmed trustworthy citizen. Pro: this can be lied about.

The Vigilante will either
~Be removed
~More likely: have his (or their) kills severely limited. The number and method depend on the number of players (i.e. 2 smaller games, 1 bigger one, how many mafia, etc). I'm not messing around too much with "X number reveals them to the mafia" or "Y number kills them" and simply saying they only have a certain number of shots. These shots might be spread across multiple people too, depending on how many kills are deemed appropriate.



The Inspector will
~have his inspections limited, but not as severely. Enough that he cannot possibly build a bloc larger than the mafia - even in the best-case scenario the citizens will need to ferret out their suspects the old-fashioned way - intuition, deduction, and a little luck.
~This will be accomplished either by limiting the number of inspections, delaying the inspection results, or by changing the information the inspector receives (for one example, night owl or heavy sleeper (power role vs. regular) as suggested above). Also, inspection targets will be told they have been inspected.

The Mole
A new role. The mafia have planted a turncoat in the police department. The Mole functions as an inspector for the mafia, finding out the role (or presence of a role) of one target at night (at the end of the night, so they can't inspect -> kill instantly). (If the inspector's targets are informed, so will the Mole's.)

The Oracle
will function similarly to as he does now, but his information may be somewhat limited (guilty/innocent, night/day, etc). He still only finds out night kills. The oracle's information will include who targeted whom at night (e.g. the mafia killed Brickroad, dtsund was a bodyguard who died protecting ParfaitRialto from the mafia, etc.) It may or may not be limited to just that (e.g. not telling them whether Brickroad had a role when I report his kill).

General rules:

Night reports. The citizens find out who died, but not who killed whom, what was prevented or not, etc. That is a job for the oracle.

Teams and players:
You will know what roles are in the game, but not how many or of what sort. I may tell you that the protector role exists but not whether they are bodyguards or angels, for example. Also, you will not know whether there are 1 or 3 of said protectors. I very well may include both kinds. If I split the vigilante kills between multiple people, they may not have the same number of kills.

Daytime votes: The 72-hour time limit on day phase seems to be widely agreed upon and I have no inclination to alter it. Night remains 48 hours, as aggravating as that can be (although I for one always savored the break - this game is stressful!). If everyone at night acts on time, the phase may end early. I reserve the right to change the length of night phases seeing as I have a job and have been known to sleep on occasion (that's a few extra/fewer hours here and there, not an extra day or two or anything).

Votes will be done as in game 2: freeform accusations, lynch upon the majority accusing a single candidate. Minimum 24 hours from the original accusation, not the defense post. They'd better defend themselves stat.
~If the day ends without a majority vote, we move to night phase without a lynch.
~If night phase ends and a power role has not acted (less likely to be a problem with limited angel/vig action) they simply lose their chance to act.


Which brings me to: If someone is unacceptably inactive, I will toy with them mercilessly and vengefully. This may involve killing them, revealing their role publicly or to certain appropriate people, insulting their immediate family, or simply discounting them from the populace with regards to deciding a majority vote. Or, I might even replace them. It will likely be subject to their performance in the game thus far, others' suspicions, the color of their shirt, or whatever other insane whim I can come up with (i.e. I'll try to handle it optimally for the situation they're in).



You may think that these rules seem to favor the mafia. You would be right. In past games, the rules favored the citizens so much that they could effectively play a terrible game and still win, or just sit back and let a few power roles pilot the fancy cruise ship S.S. Victory. The mafia had an incredibly steep uphill battle to try and overcome the sheer numbers the power roles and/or blind luck could turn against them. Well, not today. In this game, if the citizens sit back and cruise, they will lose. If they sit back and let the power roles win it for them, they'd better pray they're not getting lied to by a mafioso because there's no way to know. The citizens will be the ones who have to work this time around. After all, these murderers have infiltrated the innocents in order to destroy them. It only makes sense that they actually find themselves in danger. On the other hand, I've foreseen a couple possible outcomes that the citizens could still take a victory. I hope that I've come up with a ruleset where it is in fact the best players who win.



Also, I won't be using mafia for the theme. Who likes space operas?!

McDohl
04-05-2010, 08:59 AM
http://www.itadakiproject.com/battle-royale.jpg

It's a day before spring break, and your teacher, Mr. Richelieu, has planned for your class a field trip to the beach. Everyone is excited; talking a mile a minute. The school bus barrels down the highway with determination.

As you look around the bus, you notice for the first time all your classmates. Even the most social recluses seem to be enjoying themselves, talking to whoever is setting next to them. Even some of those new transfer kids seem to be getting along well. Today is going to be a good day for yor class.

"Hey!" You feel a tap on your shoulder and turn your head around. "Let's get our picture taken! As a group!" They wave around a disposable camera, corralling up all your friends. You smile and nod.

"Say cheese!" The camera clicks.

"You'll have to give me a copy of that!" "Yeah, that'll come out good!"

You yawn, a sudden wave of tiredness creeping over you. You plop back down in your chair, noticing Mr. Richelieu for the first time. There is a very confused look on his face, though you're not sure why.

Wow. You really are tired. The beach is still far away, so maybe you can get a nap in quickly before your class gets there. You close your eyes, and before you know it, drift off into slumber...

Congratulations! Your class has been elected to be part of the Battle Royale International Research Group (AKA: BRIRG)!

What IS Battle Royale, you ask?

At the turn of the millennium, Japan faced a crossroads. The country was on the brink of collapsing. Millions were unemployed, the yen was severely crippled, and faced severe political retribution from its enemies the world over. In an effort to control the damage, the previous generation blamed the next. They passed the controversial "Millennium Educational Reform Act", AKA: The BR Act. Designed by military officials in an effort to instill discipline into the youth, the BR Act is a military-designed exercise of basic Darwinian "Survival of the Fittest"

Now, as other countries look for scapegoats themselves, they have looked into the BR Act and see much potential. They are adopting and adjusting the rules as they see fit.

(Battle Royale is a 1999 book written by Koushun Takami, spawned into a movie of the same name. It tells a tale of a class nominated to participate in a military exercise, the goal of which is to be the last one standing. If you're the last one standing, then you win the game; all you have to do is betray all your classmates. The movie has become a cult classic around the world, with graphic and brutal depictions about the results of such absurdity.

It's a book about paranoia, fear, anger, lost trust, and violence - I think a perfect setting for a Mafia game.)

Your country is no different. The only problem is how unnecessarily violent and brutal the original BR Act is. Instead of that, the final goal will be to simply eliminate everyone who is not part of your class. It's that simple! If you can do that, you win!


So, with that in mind, here are the rules.

1. Classmates (citizens) have 72 hours to decide on whom they want to execute. Failing to do so in the allotted time means that no execution will take place, and the game will shift into the night phase. The only exception to this rule is on Day 1, in which case an execution must occur.

2. Those students who are Transfers (mafia) will then collude at night to execute someone on their own. Those more adventurous classmates may also look into doing things themselves at night, so be aware!

3. Only those who execute someone will know of their role.

4. There may be roles in which someone may face some kind of retribution. In those instances, whoever cast the first vote will be the one retributed against, even if that vote is later retracted. This is both true for classmates and transfers.

5. During the next day phase, you might find the bodies of your fellow classmates. No information will be gathered as to who executed whom.

6. If the classmates flush out all the transfers, then the classmates win! But if at any time, the number of classmates is equal to the number of transfers, then the transfers will mow down the rest of your class and they will win! Do your best!


Here are some of the roles your classmates may fulfill! How many are there going to be? Can't say (won't say)! Let's hope that there are many of these, instead of none!

Classmate (citizen) - Your fellow classmates, they're in it to win it. Make sure you don't execute these guys, or it'll be tougher for you to win!

Transfer Student (mafia) - Uh-oh! These guys want to make sure your class doesn't leave the game alive! Do your best to weasel them out!

Hacker (investigator) - While the BR database is very secure, we admit from time to time it is inevitable that some students may find their way into the database and find out who is who. Surely though, once these individuals expose themselves, they will be dealt with swiftly be the transfer students. Hackers may investigate classmates who have died.

Rebel (vigilante) - It is impossible to control all transfer students who play the game. They will side with your classmates, and take up their cause to make sure they win, but any attempt to discern their allegiance will turn up as a transfer student. Be careful!

Photographer (adjusted oracle) - These classmates have, in their own capacity, taken a lot of photos. When they thumb through their library, they remember how many of them there are in each role.
(the oracle can ask the GM every night how many of a certain role are remaining in the game).

Bodyguard (adjusted angel) - These classmates are willing to sacrifice themselves in order to protect somebody! They're very noble!
(The bodyguard can stand in the place of any target being hit that night. Once they are hit, they are out of the game.)

Outcast - Be careful executing these classmates! Any time someone tries to execute them, they'll seek retribution against you!
(Anyone who targets this individual for a hit will miss and whoever casts the first vote will die instead. This includes a lynching.)

Returning Champion (mafia boss) - These classmates are terrifying, as they've already won a game of Battle Royale before, and now they're back for more! They're a transfer student, but any attempt to discern their true identity will peg them as a regular classmate! How will you ever find them out?


Good luck guys! You can do it!

Comb Stranger
04-05-2010, 10:47 AM
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/4483/thethingposter.jpg

Copypasta from the main thread. Paul could GM it, but I guess you can just vote for me to not screw up the poll:

Long-winded idea: We could do a Thing game. There's only one infected to start, but instead of killing civvies, they infect them, and make more. Who gets infected isn't announced, just that someone's bloody clothes were found overnight.

Civilians may nominate people to be executed as normal. In addition, since Infected numbers grow, the Inspector's role becomes a public vote. Civilians nominate during the day to test one player during the night phase; if they're infected, they're automatically executed, if they're clean, it's announced in the morning. A player up for testing cannot be the target of infection that night, since they're under constant watch. Since innocence isn't permanent, this only works to validate someone until the night after testing; they can be infected afterward as normal, so effectively return to being unknowns. This eliminates the civilian bloc strategy, and requires a more offensive, investigative approach.

There are no Angels, only Immunes. Immunes can't be infected, and attempts to do so fail. They don't begin knowing who they are, and if lynched or killed by Vigilantes, they show up as civilians. Their role is only announced when an attempt to infect them fails. Since there are no Angels, this means the Vigilante can never safely come out; doing so is simply an invitation to be infected. Infected Vigilantes lose their ability to kill in the night phase, as the parasite only wants to create more hosts.

This variant is sort of the inverse of existing games, in that the Infected grow a bloc. The Civilians have the ability to kill two or three Infected per day, quickly winning the game, but have to operate in a state of constant, crippling paranoia.

For example, if there's three Infected and seven Civilians, the Civvies could go all-out, lynching, testing and shotgunning. If they score with all three, they win the game. If they whiff on all three counts, now theres four infected and five civilians, with the Civilians only gaining temporary trust in one of their own. They could easily lose the game that night, if they don't rethink and turn it around immediately.

Alpha Werewolf
04-05-2010, 12:27 PM
People of Talking Time! Do you want to take revenge on these filthy sicilians? DAMN STRAIGHT YOU DO!

My game will involve:

Exactly 20 players. This is good, because it was balanced precisely for this amount!

A complicated setup, including:
-More than two factions, each with a seperate win condition!
-Multiple power roles for each faction!
-No overpowered roles, and limits on those that can be!
-And finally, at least one special role that will change the way that the very game works!

A one week limit on days, to prevent dragging but still enable interesting talks!

A two day limit on nights, to allow for a fast return to the action!

An exciting plot, concerning Talking Time's very own members!

Brickroad!

dtsund
04-05-2010, 12:28 PM
Presented by dtsund...

http://i869.photobucket.com/albums/ab252/dtsund/neveragain.png

A Kinder, Gentler Mafia



No Vigilante! Enough of these brutal night-kills by those who purport to be innocent. Justice shall be served during the day!

No Oracle! Let the dead get their rest, and make it harder to figure out who's dead.

Priest! Killing people every day can be taxing on the soul. Now here to provide moral counseling: a priest! Here to hear your confessions, and also to help figure out who the power roles are. Every night, he can inspect one person, getting a positive result if said person is neither Mafia nor Citizen. Helps give some information on who's actually a power role, and the only way to find candidates for who might be the Devil. May not investigate dead people.

Devil! At last, an evil role that cannot kill! He knows who the Mafia are, even if they don't know who he is, and has the same power as the Priest. He wins if the Mafia win, and loses if they are extinguished (the Citizens need not kill the Devil to win). Will he subtly try to out power roles by calling for their lynches? Will he self-sacrifice to reveal all? Only time can tell... I've played as a Devil before, and I can confirm that it is quite fun, at least up to the point where the Mafia unwittingly get you lynched on day 2. *grumbles*

Frendly Neighbor! Can send one player a greeting, confirming his own innocence. Now that's kinder and gentler!

Angel! Cannot save himself; if there are multiple Angels (see below), they cannot save each other successfully. Generosity enforced by the rules: Karl Marx would be proud.

Inspector! The same Inspector you know and love. May not investigate dead people.

Mafia! Yeah, I guess it's inevitable that we'd have some of these too. They win if the number of Mafia plus the number of Devils remaining (either 0 or 1) achieves parity with the number of innocents.

Citizens! Lots of 'em.

Tax Breaks! Or something like that.

Day kills will be known to all, night kills only to the Mafia. Day phase will not be restricted to 72 hours unless extreme popular demand, uh, demands it.

If we get a huge number of players, I will not have two games, like Merus did, but rather have a single huge game. In this situation, there will be two rival Mafia families, and the number of Angels will be increased to two (as said above, though, they cannot protect each other). The Citizens win if they kill both of the Mob families; a Mafia faction wins if the other faction is destroyed and they (plus the Devil, if he's still alive) have numerical parity with the townsfolk. The Devil wins if either Mafia faction wins.

These changes, I feel, shift the balance a little toward the Mafia, with a moderate Angel nerf, replacing the Oracle and Vigilante with two less-powerful roles, and adding something to help counter the innocent power roles without actually removing their powers. At the same time, the innocent side still has some bite to it.

And finally, I cannot help but notice that this TammanyReel, this PapillonTweed, has opened the poll at such a time that he'd be the only one with a campaign. This, my fellows, cannot stand, and I move that we do proper, in-thread voting, and ignore the poll.

And re-elect dtsund. Ignore for now that I appointed myself for Game 1 and was not elected.

spineshark
04-05-2010, 09:25 PM
I'm not worried since I'm not going to win anyway. I would also enjoy running The Thing, but since I'm being all pessimistic I'm going to go ahead and post my "crazy" concept.

Management changes:
- No. of mafia, citizens, and special roles is publicly secret: What better way to ensure uncertainty than to make sure that nobody knows too much in the first place? When a role is claimed, the question isn't just whether or not that role might already be dead, but if it ever existed! And killing helpless allies indiscriminately won't just work either, if you're not sure how many enemies still remain...
- Stricter time limits and activity checks: Night lasts 48 hours. Day lasts 72 hours, or shorter if the day completes and everyone has reported in. A player who fails to make at least two posts on the first game day, and one post on each following game day without notifying the mod/rest of the participants will be removed, full stop.
- Increased allowable communication: After the conclusion of Day 1, the Mafia will be allowed to communicate with each other at any time. To compensate, the entire town will also receive the opportunity to make contacts with each other, should they so desire. But they know that they do so at their own risk.

Role Changes (assuming they appear!):
- Oracle: Receives information one day later than before.
- Angels: Cannot protect the same target on consecutive nights.
- Inspector: No direct changes.
- Vigilante: Will be seen and identified by the mafia if they act two nights in a row.

The Gimmick:
- Weather Effects: When there are roughly 24 hours remaining in the day phase, I will roll a die. This die will determine the night's weather, with some forecasts preventing the action of citizen roles. The same adverse weather effect will not trigger twice in a row. (That would just be lame.) The mafia, however, are brazen enough to continue their grim task through heavy rain or moonshine, and will not be stopped by any effects. Once the night's weather is determined, the next vote tally/mod post will feature an indication of the night's meteorological action.
- On a 1, 2, or 3: It is a mild, slightly overcast night, and all power roles behave normally.
- On a 4: Severe precipitation makes it too difficult for the inspector to find clues. He or she will be unable to determine the status of any players.
- On a 5: The Vigilante stays indoors, because a brightly shining moon sabotages their most crucial asset: subtlety.
- On a 6: Vicious winds whip through the town, preventing any Angels from being able to use their mysterious-but-not-quite-almighty powers of salvation.

Vote spineshark for the slightly spicy taste of chaos! Or pity. The reasons aren't too important to me, really.

SilentSnake
04-05-2010, 10:02 PM
So I guess I needed to clear the poll? Well, that didn't work so we'll just start again here.

Brickroad
04-05-2010, 10:09 PM
spineshark's ruleset sounds really cool, except for the forced two-posts-per-day rule. I can see forcing one post per day, since every player should reasonably be expected to make an accusation or a defense post. But two? There are legitimate reasons for wanting to refrain from posting.

For some reason the weather effects don't bug me as much as the Roleblocker role does. I am a hypocrite! Woo!

Nich's game sounds fun too, a sort of blend between Mafia and The Thing, but I'm more anxious to play a "fixed game two" than a new weird game entirely.

(And besides, I am dying to play with/against Nich!)

PapillonReel
04-05-2010, 10:15 PM
For some reason the weather effects don't bug me as much as the Roleblocker role does. I am a hypocrite! Woo!

You are! Especially since you said you were willing to try it once just a week ago after I said it might make things interesting.

Jerk.

(Also, I'm really not all that enthusiastic about the info-free lynch reports that Paul and, to a lesser extent, Destil are pushing for. If you don't know who the people you killed were aligned with, how are you supposed to connect the threads and start pushing people's buttons? How do you know if you're on the right track if you don't even know who you're hitting? Downplaying this stuff is one thing, but it seems like it'd be pushing the entire game in favour of the Mafia cruising to an easy win.)

spineshark
04-05-2010, 10:16 PM
Well, if only I could make it one-and-a-half! I was definitely torn, but I don't think accusation + one other post is too unreasonable. I can change, though!

Brickroad
04-05-2010, 10:20 PM
You are! Especially since you said you were willing to try it once just a week ago after I said it might make things interesting.

I still am! Just... not when there are better rulesets on the table. (Like Destil's, with the robots.)

McD's sounds good to me too, except maybe the Outcast. It sounds like that player is invincible. Is he a classmate or a transfer student or what?

Eddie
04-05-2010, 10:20 PM
I'm voting for whoever says they'll run a game that is completely bare bones: Mafia, Citizens, no power roles. Aaaaahh yeah.

- Eddie

Kayma
04-05-2010, 10:22 PM
Lot's of talky going on in this thread, so I'll keep this simple; I WANT TO PLAY

PapillonReel
04-05-2010, 10:34 PM
I still am! Just... not when there are better rulesets on the table. (Like Destil's, with the robots.)

Hm, yes, because robots have our best interests (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IojqOMWTgv8) in mind.

I'll be honest though, I actually like a lot of the ideas put forward here - McDohl's and Comb's ideas sound really cool, and as sparse as Nich's ruleset is, I was actually thinking about requesting a vanilla game at some point. The only ones that really make me draw pause are Alpha's (super vague, nothing really inticing), spineshark's (weather effects don't really sound like my cup of tea, sorry) and maybe Paul's (due to the aforementioned lynch reports rule), and save for numero uno, even then they each have something going for them. Just so long as they're as stable in practice as they are in paper, it's all good to me.

McDohl
04-05-2010, 10:34 PM
I still am! Just... not when there are better rulesets on the table. (Like Destil's, with the robots.)

McD's sounds good to me too, except maybe the Outcast. It sounds like that player is invincible. Is he a classmate or a transfer student or what?

I see the concern there.

My logic is in my rule-set, people don't learn who was killed by whom during the night phase, just that they're dead. If the transfers target the outcast, they learn who it is, and in turn one of their own dies. If the rebel targets the outcast, then the rebel is dead. If the classmates execute the outcast, the outcast dies, but he takes out someone as he does.

The actual person has no control over this power. It's a mechanic designed to cause paranoia and caution. It can work against everybody, even though he's pro-classmate.

The ultimate goal of my game isn't necessarily a reduction of power roles in the game, since they spice up the game in interesting ways, but rather to control the information available to the citizens.

Paul le Fou
04-05-2010, 10:35 PM
I went ahead and removed info-free lynches and the coroner from my ruleset after consideration. It goes too far after all. I may yet reintroduce one other thing for the mafia in return for that, but we'll see.

vaterite
04-05-2010, 10:40 PM
I want to play.

I want to play all of these games. I'm leaning towards THE THING, but I can see how Battle Royale makes a lot of sense (traditional game, with flair), but weather effects sounds super-sweet. You guys are making voting difficult.

Brickroad
04-05-2010, 10:41 PM
I guess it's worth asking: are we doing one giant game? Or the two that get the most votes? Or what?

PapillonReel
04-05-2010, 10:43 PM
I guess it's worth asking: are we doing one giant game? Or the two that get the most votes? Or what?

I say let's think big this time around, see how far we can get if we pool all our talent together. At the very least, it'd be a nice test run to see how far we can get when we all go at it, no holds barred.

Brickroad
04-05-2010, 10:48 PM
I'm torn between spineshark and Paul. I guess I'll wait to see if Paul makes any more modifications.

Kayma
04-05-2010, 10:54 PM
The folks over at Shadow Gamespite did a The Thing themed werewolf variant. I only spectated, and I can't seem to find the thread, so I can't recall how the rules went down... but it seemed like a blast. Still, I'll play anything.

PapillonReel
04-05-2010, 10:55 PM
re spineshark: I think Oracles receiving info one day late kind of destroys the purpose of the role, personally - the idea is that they're kept up to date with the kills made by both Citizenry and Mafia, making them the only player in the game working with perfect information. If they're constantly out of date, how are they supposed to use the information they have effectively? What's the point in knowing a role's already dead when the damage will most likely have already been done?

I'm interested in seeing how the nighttime PMs work out though - I'm not really sold on it either way, but I'm not against testing it out in a real game and if it works out then fantastic. Weather effects are really ehh for me, however.

VorpalEdge
04-05-2010, 11:30 PM
Weather effects! Along with paranoia, it's just the kind of unmitigated fuck-you-up chaos the game needs more of.

dtsund
04-05-2010, 11:37 PM
If we're having a roleblocker, I'd want to limit the number of times he can act. If they figure out who the Inspector is, don't rob him of his inspection powers every night; just give them the opportunity to kill the Angel shell-game if they find out who he is.

As for spineshark's weather effects... I think it's a decent idea. Perhaps have public weather forecasts so we can know when the roles will be inactive ahead of time?

Brickroad
04-05-2010, 11:39 PM
Weather effects are really ehh for me, however.

I think I like them because they're a function of the game rather than a player. Giving the power to a mafia role is fine... until the player with that role dies. Then they're back in the same boat.

I think the way I'd play it is for the GM to wait until halfway or two-thirds of the way through the day phase, then announce "The winds are picking up." or whatever. The citizen role is still blocked, but they can do some last minute scrambling if they were, say, planning to use their vigilante shot that night.

That might be too much bookkeeping though. Anyway I think it's kind of a neat idea.

(Yeah yeah random blah blah. Hypocrite!)

Destil
04-05-2010, 11:43 PM
I'm pretty happy with all of these rule sets (except perhaps Alpha Werewolf's, simply because I don't know what it is and the hard size limit isn't conductive to adding more players unless we split things). I could enjoy any of them; given that mine's largely random and Paul's is mutable I think both could actually end up with the exact same rules potentially, which is neat.

I have some ideas on theme, tone and special stuff, but for now I'm sticking to the core game. Next time I'll have something I'm sure a lot of you will find interesting (though I think my vote is for The Thing after game 3).

EDIT: Moved the core of things into my rules post.

Queen Possum
04-05-2010, 11:46 PM
So this is just like Are you a Werewolf, correct?

If that is the case, I would like to play.

namelessentity
04-06-2010, 12:40 AM
While I would love to play "The Thing," I haven't had a chance to be in a regular game from the start, so that will be my vote for the next game.

As of right now, I like McDohl's idea (except for the outcast), Nich, and spineshark.
There needs to be more mudslinging. How can a person be expected to vote in an election without mudslinging?

(oh, and I want to play)

chady
04-06-2010, 12:44 AM
First things first: I WANT TO PLAY.

Second: I voted for Spineshark's ruleset because it seems like it fixes some of the problems I've seen from the first two mafia games without changing the basic formula too much. Plus, I really like the weather gimmick.

However, I also like Alpha's approach, if not his execution/presentation. No information going in is the best way to insure paranoia amongst the citizens (and mafia for that matter). Spineshark's ruleset incorporates this as well. Not stating which power rules exist or how many mafia there are opens up all kinds of intriguing possibilities, like mafia claiming roles which might not exist, or actual citizen-aligned roles having to convince everyone else that they are on the up and up when claiming their role publicly.

I have some reservations with Spine's plan; the two posts per game day thing eliminates some subtlety (I think one is enough), and I'd like to see the Oracle (if there is one) still receive reports after each night phase, but these are only small concerns.

Whoever wins, I want flavor text. Copious amounts of it, if possible.

Garrison
04-06-2010, 12:45 AM
As much as I like Paul's game, I think spineshark's weather system is really interesting. That's probably where my vote is going to go, but I'm going to think about it some more.

spineshark
04-06-2010, 12:59 AM
I think the way I'd play it is for the GM to wait until halfway or two-thirds of the way through the day phase, then announce "The winds are picking up." or whatever. The citizen role is still blocked, but they can do some last minute scrambling if they were, say, planning to use their vigilante shot that night.
This is the other thing that was kind of an arbitrary call between two options for me, because I can't figure out whether it's better to give the town as a whole that option to know what's coming, or keep the Mafia from being able to account it into their plays. Though, now that you put it that way, it is kinda silly for the weather to just pop in at the last second, huh? Well, not around here (about a week and a half ago I left the house at lunchtime and it was 60 degrees and sunny, and when I got home at dinnertime there were three inches of snow on the ground) but that's not really the point.

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 01:02 AM
Well, you live on PSYCHE PLANET-V so it's to be expected.

When it rains cats and dogs on PSYCHE PLANET-V it literally rains cats and dogs.

SpoonyGundam
04-06-2010, 01:13 AM
I think the way I'd play it is for the GM to wait until halfway or two-thirds of the way through the day phase, then announce "The winds are picking up." or whatever. The citizen role is still blocked, but they can do some last minute scrambling if they were, say, planning to use their vigilante shot that night.

Another option: Have a meteorologist role that knows what the weather will be during the night.

You can even give him a certain percent chance to get the weather wrong, just to make it harder for him to become a trustworthy citizen, but still potentially useful enough to listen to.

dtsund
04-06-2010, 01:23 AM
Nich promises you nothing but fear. I'd rather offer you fellows hope.

spineshark
04-06-2010, 01:35 AM
re spineshark: I think Oracles receiving info one day late kind of destroys the purpose of the role, personally - the idea is that they're kept up to date with the kills made by both Citizenry and Mafia, making them the only player in the game working with perfect information. If they're constantly out of date, how are they supposed to use the information they have effectively? What's the point in knowing a role's already dead when the damage will most likely have already been done?
This is exactly why I'm leery of the role, after the first two games. In the first one, I kind of chalked its centrality in the endgame up as a fluke, especially because it was Dizzy we were dealing with. But after seeing it come in even more importantly in 2-East, I have a hard time seeing it as a coincidence. Like dtsund, I think it's probably overpowered. I can see why you like it, though (I kinda hate thinking of nerfing or cutting the Vigilante, myself) haha
Another option: Have a meteorologist role that knows what the weather will be during the night.

You can even give him a certain percent chance to get the weather wrong, just to make it harder for him to become a trustworthy citizen, but still potentially useful enough to listen to.
Did consider this. (But not the second part. Lying makes it worse than nothing. Anyone can make up stuff about the weather.) Not seeing how it would play out in a useful manner. You'd get maybe a couple nights of accurate predictions, then they would be killed when the Mafia was onto them, and it would be back to darkness.

Right now I think I'll change the activity requirements to two posts on the first day (really don't think this is unreasonable since the first page or so tends to be so insubstantial), and one on subsequent days. And I do think giving weather forecasting late in the day phase is a better idea than keeping it secret until the night resolves, so I'll patch that in here.

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 01:37 AM
Liking the changes, spine. I'll vote for you unless Paul comes back with something spectacular.

Destil
04-06-2010, 01:42 AM
I'd really like weather to be at least uncertain, so both the mafia and the citizens have to work around it. Perhaps roll the die ahead of time and give a chance of various things, only announcing what it actually is after the mafia have chosen their move.

EDIT: While it makes the game a little more luck based, I think I'd have enjoyed watching the last days of East more if the mafia were instead going after Guesty on the off-chance of a windstorm. Something that potentially rewards non-optimal play is pretty good in my book, as it can throw a lot into question.

SpoonyGundam
04-06-2010, 01:46 AM
Did consider this. (But not the second part. Lying makes it worse than nothing. Anyone can make up stuff about the weather.) Not seeing how it would play out in a useful manner. You'd get maybe a couple nights of accurate predictions, then they would be killed when the Mafia was onto them, and it would be back to darkness.

Oh, it's not really going to be useful at all, no. I was just amused by the idea of the town ending up lynching the weatherman because it rained when he said it would be sunny.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 02:11 AM
tl;dr

Counterpoint: Ico, as beautiful as it was, is a fairly dull game by today's standards, and the reason why Shadow of the Colossus is so revered is partly because it took that foundation it set and built on it towards something more ambitious. The mere fact that the game's encounters were more varied and much grander on scale made it the more memorable game of the two, and the fact that it gave you more tools and more skills to accomplish them with only added onto the experience, not detracted from it.

Mafia is the same way. The reason why these power roles have persisted over the years, despite rigorous play and constant testing, is because they do add flavour to the game through the unexpected twists they bring. They give certain players the means to take matters into their own hands, thwarting murderous plots by the Mafia or doling out vigilante justice out to those that are impossible to lynch, and stripping that game down into something so basic, so... ordinary, just turns it into another game of he said, she said.

I agree, our goal right now should be to return the game to its basic roots and work from there... but the point is, power roles have been there since the very beginning and will continue to play a role in the future. We'd be foolish to ignore them because of it.

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 02:14 AM
Ico is so much better than Shadow of the Whatever it's not even funny.

Before I wasn't going to vote for you, Pappy, but now I'm going to anti-vote for you.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 02:17 AM
Ico is so much better than Shadow of the Whatever it's not even funny.

Ico is fun and cool for the first hour or so and is interesting for its approach towards environmental puzzles, but after five-to-ten hours of more of the same with only lame fights with shadow people to punctuate it? No thanks, bro.

Shadow of the Colossus, meanwhile, brings something new to the table with each boss you stare down and is absolutely epic because of it. While not every one of them may be winners, it at least tries to be different.

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 02:18 AM
Oh ho, disagreeing with me, I see? Now I'm anti-voting for you twice.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 02:19 AM
I hope I'm Vigilante in spineshark's game, so I can shoot you in the face.

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 02:30 AM
I hope I'm Vigilante in spineshark's game, so I can shoot you in the face.

Not if it's a full moon!

Destil
04-06-2010, 02:30 AM
I hope I'm Vigilante in spineshark's game, so I can shoot you in the face.

Not if the moon has anything to say about it!

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 02:54 AM
Not if it's a full moon!

Doesn't matter. In the name of the moon, I will punish you!

SpoonyGundam
04-06-2010, 03:16 AM
Requesting Sailor Moon themed mafia.

Paul le Fou
04-06-2010, 04:51 AM
Looking over Spineshark's game again, I really don't think it does enough to deal with the power roles being too powerful. The inspector isn't limited at all. The angel's nerf doesn't go far enough - it still fully enables a shell game and only means anything if the mafia manage to get unlucky enough to hit a protected target. Instead it nerfs the oracle, which is one of the more interesting roles in the game. Only the vigilante's treatment is handled particularly well. I don't think adding a random chance to possibly disable one of the power roles does enough to offset the benefits that the citizens will still have. The gimmick is just that: a gimmick.

The citizens will still be able to put together the same bloc they have before. Possibly EVEN MORE EFFECTIVELY because they can communicate secretly with each other. The chance of communicating secretly with a mafioso doesn't really hinder that because it doesn't change the dynamic of the public interaction, i.e. the risks of not knowing whom you can and can't trust.

It doesn't fix the problems we've had in previous games with action roles being overpowered or, more importantly, overimportant to the game.


The angel not being able to save himself in Dtsund's game or the mafia having a roleblocker in Pappy's or the angel losing his powers or dying on a protect in mine all deal more directly with how the angel works (in order of efficacy, in my humble opinion) instead of a tiny tweak that only has a chance of significantly effecting how the angel works. And because the angel is still too powerful, the nerf to the vigilante won't work - if the mafia know who he is, he'll come out and get shell gamed - just like in the other games. The inspector - without a change at all the problems aren't going away.

Adding some bells and whistles and tweaking a tiny nut here and a bolt there doesn't fix a dramatically unbalanced ruleset.



While we're at it, I like Nich's game as it's basically the one I suggested back near the beginning of game 2 (absolute minimum power roles, although I actually went ahead and said none at all), and I like dtsund's because it de-emphasizes action roles and emphasizes information roles. I've got mixed feelings on McDohl's and Pappy's - like half the stuff they do, really dislike the other half. Spineshark's is the only one I would consider straight-up bowing out of if it won, though.

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 05:04 AM
While it's true that subtracting uneccesary or unhealthy elements is good, subtracting too much is, in my opinion, bad. A minimalist game is just TOO minimal.

People seem to want to know about the setup more than I thought, so I may put in some hints. Should I? And while I'm at that, are we allowed to edit our opening posts?

While spine's weather gimmick is nice, it's pretty much taking the game to the worst possible place in my opinion: Randomness. Every night, there's a 50% chance that one of the town power roles will get FUKT. I just don't see how randomness is a good thing in mafia.

Eddie
04-06-2010, 05:48 AM
Mafia is the same way. The reason why these power roles have persisted over the years, despite rigorous play and constant testing, is because they do add flavour to the game through the unexpected twists they bring. They give certain players the means to take matters into their own hands, thwarting murderous plots by the Mafia or doling out vigilante justice out to those that are impossible to lynch, and stripping that game down into something so basic, so... ordinary, just turns it into another game of he said, she said.

I agree, our goal right now should be to return the game to its basic roots and work from there... but the point is, power roles have been there since the very beginning and will continue to play a role in the future. We'd be foolish to ignore them because of it.

I counter with the idea that believing power roles to be 'essential' in any form is incredibly faulty logic. The game is perfectly functional without any. I would also point out that the original game only had one power role: an investigator, (http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html#history) who of course had no other power roles to back him up.

- Eddie

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 08:22 AM
Done and done.

ATTENTION DUELISTS! My post has been edited!

kaisel
04-06-2010, 09:17 AM
While I'll probably play in any game (well, except for Alpha Werewolf's, just because I still don't know anything about it, and that whole "one role that'll change the way the game is played" is worrisome to me), I feel Nich's is the best distillation of mafia, it makes the investigator think about when to reveal information (since the mafia will know when she/he is onto them) and fixes the problem of the mafia being about to lose, with the ability to convert one person, whose posting history will help so much. Just think if the Don had gotten Nich or Brickroad last game to convert to the mafia's side last game.

Comb Stranger
04-06-2010, 09:34 AM
Or both! Into some sort of... Nichroad.

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 09:55 AM
Or both! Into some sort of... Nichroad.

But what hat would they have?

Kylie
04-06-2010, 10:05 AM
I wonder about the efficacy of the Don. It'll certainly be an interesting tool -- but honestly, I don't know if converting Nich would have made a difference last game. That said, for me it's down to Nich's rules, or McDohl's. Decisions forthcoming.

Alpha: Dang man, I STILL don't know anything about your game.

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 10:07 AM
Alpha: Dang man, I STILL don't know anything about your game.

I don't want to mention specific roles, because that's part of the confusion and paranoia that I want to promote. I can make a list of possible roles, but that's ugh.

Calorie Mate
04-06-2010, 10:35 AM
I made the right choice: I voted Nich. You should do the same!

namelessentity
04-06-2010, 11:15 AM
I have to say, I really like Nich's game the more I read it. The idea of the Don is a complete game changer. A bloc is impossible, only a pseudo bloc because you can't trust anybody after a point. My question is would the Inspector be immune to the Don's power? If not, the inspector could never come out because he would be immediately recruited and the citizens would lose. I don't know how I feel about that, but it is definitely an interesting game.

That said, I still want to play fixed-Game-two, and I think McDohl has come closest to that. By limiting the angels he in extension limits the inspector and the vigilante. The common bloc strategy won't work here because they can never safely reveal themselves. They would just have to bide there time and nudge the citizens in the right direction. And with the inclusion of the "returning champion," no one really ever has perfect information as to who is innocent (except the mafia). I like this game a lot.

A question for the both of you: Would you be considering playing one large game or two smaller? I would really like to see a large game.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 11:23 AM
I counter with the idea that believing power roles to be 'essential' in any form is incredibly faulty logic.

Who said anything about them being essential? I was arguing that they add to the experience when implimented right, not detract from it - it gives people something to do at night and allows both sides to pull off something that would've been impossible in the basic ruleset otherwise.

The game is perfectly functional without any. I would also point out that the original game only had one power role: an investigator, (http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html#history) who of course had no other power roles to back him up.

Who is also the most unbalanced role in the game so far - being able to turn around even the most hopeless game and basically adds a third trial to the team without any of the consequences. You guys do realize that his inspections have had the biggest impact on the game so far, right? And that information is power and whatever, and that even one or two inspections are enough to dramatically alter a close game or, etc.

The fact that his power has absolutely no downside is a bigger cause for alarm, anyway - being able to determine alignment without having to kill like everyone else has to allows him to cut down on a list of suspects while building an even bigger army against the Mafia at the same time. Shell game tactics may've exacerbated the problem, but even a singular reveal with one or two names have been enough to make a huge comeback (*cough*Mr. J*cough*), basically shifting numbers heavily in his favour while the Mafia are unable to do anything about it.

Removing roles is all well and good and honestly, Oracle aside, I don't really give two craps about whether or not you decide to go without them (I'm betting on the game being a bit shallow and linear without anything to change it up, but I digress), but if you guys are really serious about playing with "minimal" powers or whatever then at least do something about the absolute worst case in the game while you're at it.

kaisel
04-06-2010, 11:32 AM
[The investigator] is also the most unbalanced role in the game so far - being able to turn around even the most hopeless game and basically adds a third trial to the team without any of the consequences. You guys do realize that his inspections have had the biggest impact on the game so far, right? And that information is power and whatever, and that even one or two inspections are enough to dramatically alter a close game or, etc.



I think only the Investigator works because there's no safe way for the person to reveal the results of his investigation, since after that he's gone. The big thing in the three games of mafia here on Talking Time is that the mafia hasn't tried to really take control of the game, because it's extremely difficult to do so, it's not just the incredibly strong investigator, but it's also the angels and vigilante.

I think the thing with power roles, is that the more you add, the more you need to carefully balance them, otherwise it becomes a mess. If you only have one or two roles, it's much easier to balance them in general, I think.

Though, I don't care if more roles are added or not, my preference is for less (to stay away from that "only a citizen" feeling), it's not like I'm going to refuse to play if there are a bunch of roles, unless one of those is like the tree stump or whatever.

Tock
04-06-2010, 11:38 AM
I'm re-voting Paul, and here's why. I think that criticism that the rules are in favor of the Mafia is valid; I also think that this is essential. Citizens have the advantage of numbers. In a perfectly balanced game, greater numbers will almost always win out, even if the larger team doesn't play as well. The Inspector has turned the game around in all three Mafia games thus far because in its current state it gives the Citizens numbers and perfect information. The ruleset shouldn't be about making the Mafia even with the citizens on a one-to-one level, but rather to give them an equivalent advantage. Where the Citizens have numbers, the Mafia should have greater information control.

I admit my opinion here is somewhat colored by playing the Mafia side last game, and that by voting Paul I'm most likely putting myself (as I'm most likely to be a citizen) at a disadvantage. But that's fine too! As a citizen, I want to have to scrap, to panic, to be forced to outthink an enemy who could be hiding anywhere. Going back to Game East, Day Three (until J's reveal) was boring as hell, because we just sat around and waited for perfect information. I had the most fun on Day Two, when Pappy sounded the alarm about kaisel's death and people started to panic and point fingers and actually play the game.

Anyway, I think the alternative rulesets also have merit, so I want to play pretty much regardless of who wins (though Alpha, your mystery proposal with limited access is the least appealing to me). I'll also repeat my proposal of going straight from Game Three into Game Thing, since the rulesets are so different that gameplay issues from Game Three shouldn't apply to Game Thing, and because The Thing is friggin' awesome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TevQS4qgE_Q)

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 11:42 AM
I think Investigator only works because there's no safe way for the person to reveal the results of his investigation, since after that he's gone. The big thing in the three games of mafia here on Talking Time is that the mafia hasn't tried to really take control of the game, because it's extremely difficult to do so. Without angels, the investigator becomes much less useful, since once he's revealed his findings, it's over for him.

Except one problem - when he does reveal his findings, he changes the game in a huge way in one faction's favour. For people harping on the shell game and nighttime attacks and whatnot that shifts the game heavily for the Citizenry, this should be a huge no-no for them? But for some reason it's not? What?

I think the thing with power roles, is that the more you add, the more you need to carefully balance them, otherwise it becomes a mess. If you only have one or two roles, it's much easier to balance them in general, I think.

True enough, but that's the case in any game no matter what you play. I just think that we've got enough experience with the Angel and Vigilante to balance them effectively without removing them entirely (and, in fact, we've had about half a dozen proposals that do exactly this), but I suppose people are going to think differently about it.

Kylie
04-06-2010, 11:44 AM
To be fair, I think Nich's game would have to be small. At two deaths per day, assuming 5 mafiosi, in a twenty-person game, a game that lasts ten game-time days is entirely conceivable. While this is interesting for the survivors, one of the things that IS nice about the current game is that people who die early don't have to wait three months to play again. A game of more than fifteen would feel kind of epic, but still.

McDohl
04-06-2010, 11:45 AM
A question for the both of you: Would you be considering playing one large game or two smaller? I would really like to see a large game.

I could do either. I'm open to all suggestions, as always.

I should add if there's concern about the Outcast role in my game being too invulnerable, I can adjust that, or failing to fix it, remove it completely.

Who is also the most unbalanced role in the game so far - being able to turn around even the most hopeless game and basically adds a third trial to the team without any of the consequences. You guys do realize that his inspections have had the biggest impact on the game so far, right? And that information is power and whatever, and that even one or two inspections are enough to dramatically alter a close game or, etc.

The fact that his power has absolutely no downside is a bigger cause for alarm, anyway - being able to determine alignment without having to kill like everyone else has to allows him to cut down on a list of suspects while building an even bigger army against the Mafia at the same time. Shell game tactics may've made it an even bigger problem, but even a singular reveal with one or two names have been enough to make a huge comeback (*cough*Mr. J*cough*), basically shifting numbers heavily in his favour while the Mafia are unable to do anything about it.

Removing roles is all well and good and honestly, Oracle aside, I don't really give two craps about whether or not you decide to go without them (I'm betting on the game being a bit shallow and linear without anything to change it up, but I digress), but if you guys are really serious about playing with "minimal" powers or whatever then do something about the absolute worst case in the game.

I understand the concern about the investigator being too powerful (especially when s/he's invulnerable), but information is the only way that the citizens can win the game without it ending up as a total crapshoot (which favors the mafia).

This is why I'm of the opinion that information should be controlled. If a GM can control the information, the game becomes much more than just a numbers-crunching, bloc-forming exercise.

kaisel
04-06-2010, 11:50 AM
I have a quick question to all candidates: A lot of you have put limits on the day phase (which is good), but what happens if someone is accused on hour 70? Does the potential lynchee get a 24 hour window to reply, or can one sneak in a quick lynch?

Except one problem - when he does reveal his findings, he changes the game in a huge way in one faction's favour. For people harping on the shell game and nighttime attacks and whatnot that shifts the game heavily for the Citizenry, this should be a huge no-no for them? But for some reason it's not? What?

It's much easier for the mafia to front an inspector in this case. Also there's a game of when should the investigator reveal his findings, as soon as he finds a guilty verdict, when he has x amount of civvies? Wait too long, and the mafia could take the inspector out before he reveals his information, too short of time and you bag maybe one mafia, but no one else.

True enough, but that's the case in any game no matter what you play. I just think that we've got enough experience with the Angel and Vigilante to balance them effectively without removing them entirely (and, in fact, we've had about half a dozen proposals that do exactly this), but I suppose people are going to think differently about it.

I do think that of all the games with the rules laid out, that the roles are well-balanced. It was actually a hard choice to pick just one game, as I think every potential narrator would run a fun game.

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 11:56 AM
We should run two games IMO... but there's something else.

How about, instead of opening a poll every time, we simply run a queue? We'll have the top two people running a game, opening signups when the previous game ends.

The queue right now will be in the order of the votes, and after that it's first-signed first-served. Though you can only have one instance of yourself on the queue at any given time, of course.

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 12:04 PM
Also, I think it's much too soon to talk about two games. We only have 22 people signed up (23 if you count Calories, but one of those 23 is going to be the GM). Unless we want to run two ultra-short games of 11 people each, that's not nearly enough to split.

There are so few signed up? I thought we were approaching 40.

Yeah in that case run one, although I personally think playing in two is fine. Hell, I've been playing in two game since Mafia West's day 2.

Thoughts about the queue system?

Calorie Mate
04-06-2010, 12:04 PM
Oh, uh, I'm totally down for playing in whatever game wins so let me play I want to plaaaaaay. Sorry I didn't make that clear!

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 12:07 PM
Oh, one thought about the inspector (I'm not implementing it in any inspector variants I have, but it's worth a thought): Maybe have the inspector lose his ability once he reveals an investigation or claims. That way, you can't claim and just ride along until the end.

namelessentity
04-06-2010, 12:20 PM
Also, I think it's much too soon to talk about two games. We only have 22 people signed up (23 if you count Calories, but one of those 23 is going to be the GM). Unless we want to run two ultra-short games of 11 people each, that's not nearly enough to split.

There are a few more people than that, PapillonReel just hasn't updated the main list yet (though I don't think it is more than 30)

kaisel
04-06-2010, 12:21 PM
I don't know if I've actually said it in this thread or not, but I want in on the next game, regardless of who wins.

McDohl
04-06-2010, 12:26 PM
I have a quick question to all candidates: A lot of you have put limits on the day phase (which is good), but what happens if someone is accused on hour 70? Does the potential lynchee get a 24 hour window to reply, or can one sneak in a quick lynch?

I'll allow a little leeway for late developments, but I think a gentle reminder that there's 12 hours remaining pushes people either into voting or passing, thus giving enough time for people to put up a defense.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 12:32 PM
There are a few more people than that, PapillonReel just hasn't updated the main list yet (though I don't think it is more than 30)

I'm going through the two threads again, Outside of Calories and kaisel just now, I think I've got everyone so far. Interest is a bit tamer this time around, methinks.

On another note, I wouldn't be adverse to setting up a queue based on how the votes turn out this time - it'd save us some time in the long run if we got all of this sorted out ahead of time, at least. One question, though: how will we handle ties?

I'll think on the 72-hour question for a bit, but I can see going with Nich's idea of limiting accusations after a certain point.

Destil
04-06-2010, 12:38 PM
I have a quick question to all candidates: A lot of you have put limits on the day phase (which is good), but what happens if someone is accused on hour 70? Does the potential lynchee get a 24 hour window to reply, or can one sneak in a quick lynch?I covered this in my rule set post: there will be a one time extension to day up of up to 24 hour for defense posts if someone is accused for the first time during the last 24 hours of the day. No new accusations during the extended day period (you can always change your vote to no one).

On another note, I wouldn't be adverse to setting up a queue based on how the votes turn out this time - it'd save us some time in the long run if we got all of this sorted out ahead of time, at least. One question, though: how will we handle ties?I'm actually interested in proposing something quite a bit different (base on some ideas tossed around a lot during game one and forgotten) at the next chance. But I'd rather play a game of mafia and then a game of The Thing first.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 12:47 PM
Okay, looks like I missed a few people after all. I think that's it though, and for the people that haven't really spoken either way remember to say "I WANT TO PLAY" if you want to take part in the fun!

Bongo Bill
04-06-2010, 12:51 PM
You guys always take so long in your Mafia games relative to what I'm used to, and this thing's looking pretty big!

But whatever, I'm down. I'm down as hell. I want to play.

Alpha Werewolf
04-06-2010, 01:00 PM
Hey Pappy! I'm not sure I want to play. Specifically, I won't play in the minimalist games (paul and Nich). No offense to you guys, but I don't think I'll enjoy them.

Calorie Mate
04-06-2010, 01:06 PM
I'm not sure limiting the accusations after a point are a good idea.

Remember the Marion thing? What if something like that (yes I know it happened 'cuz he was accused bear with me here) happened after the mark, but it was too late to accuse the obviously guilty guy? What about reactionary accusations in peoples' defense posts, which often make them out to be even more guilty?

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 01:10 PM
Remember the Marion thing? What if something like that (yes I know it happened 'cuz he was accused bear with me here) happened after the mark, but it was too late to accuse the obviously guilty guy? What about reactionary accusations in peoples' defense posts, which often make them out to be even more guilty?

Hmm... good point. Limiting accusations would make any late-day turnarounds and scrambling impossible, which is one of the more fun parts of the game. I guess extending daytime a little bit past the limit wouldn't hurt, but if they don't post and fail the subsequent activity check there will be... severe consequences.

chady
04-06-2010, 01:14 PM
Hey Pappy, it looks like when you updated the list of who wants to play, you took me off. I WANT TO PLAY.

I'm onto your little game, PapelbonMeal.

Bongo Bill
04-06-2010, 01:15 PM
The thing about time limits is that you want to set them up in such a way that they can't be abused. The purpose of a time limit is to keep people from just blowing the game off, right? Make sure everybody's providing input. Any official rule-mongering you create must always incentivize that behavior. This is like Miyamoto Musashio 101 here. You want to make sure that the dominant strategy isn't just to wait as long as possible!

namelessentity
04-06-2010, 01:19 PM
On another note, I wouldn't be adverse to setting up a queue based on how the votes turn out this time - it'd save us some time in the long run if we got all of this sorted out ahead of time, at least. One question, though: how will we handle ties?


I actually say that after a certain amount of time, we take the top three and hold another vote amongst only those people.

And because you people like bold and ctrl-F, I WANT TO PLAY

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 01:23 PM
Hey Pappy, it looks like when you updated the list of who wants to play, you took me off. I WANT TO PLAY.

I'm onto your little game, PapelbonMeal.

Goddamn Safari-vbulletin edit glitches. Such a monumental pain in the ass.

(Fun fact: When I go to edit something, the board brings up an earlier version of the post instead of the one I want to edit. Normally not a big deal if there's enough of a break between edits that it doesn't show up or I catch on right away, but when editing things like this, and the LP Archive, oftentimes I'll have changes erased for no reason whatsoever and I only find out until someone bugs me about it. Hate hate hate.)

(See also: blank pages refusing to load. Not nearly as bad as it was last Autumn, but still going on for whatever reason.)

dtsund
04-06-2010, 01:27 PM
Goddamn Safari-vbulletin edit glitches. Such a monumental pain in the ass.

(Fun fact: When I go to edit something, the board brings up an earlier version of the post instead of the one I want to edit. Normally not a big deal if there's enough of a break between edits that it doesn't show up or I catch on right away, but when editing things like this, and the LP Archive, oftentimes I'll have changes erased for no reason whatsoever and I only find out until someone bugs me about it. Hate hate hate.)

(See also: blank pages refusing to load. Not nearly as bad as it was last Autumn, but still going on for whatever reason.)

Perhaps you should consider using a different browser for TT? Just sayin'.

I use Opera almost exclusively, but a website I have the unfortunate need to visit frequently doesn't work properly under it, so I occasionally run Firefox alongside it.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Perhaps you should consider using a different browser for TT? Just sayin'.

Except Safari's perfectly fine for everything else I use - it's just TT that it acts up with. And there's no chance in hell I'm going to keep two browsers open at once for something that's at worst an irritation.

FireFox seems pretty swank, though. Maybe it's time I switched over.

spineshark
04-06-2010, 01:44 PM
It doesn't fix the problems we've had in previous games with action roles being overpowered or, more importantly, overimportant to the game.
(I wasn't going to put all four of them in, probably. That's one of the reasons it's secret.)

Also, I've been practicing writing flavor text:
"Fine! These rules suck anyway!" exclaimed Paul. "I'm going to start my own Mafia game. With blackjack, and hookers!

"You know what? Forget the blackjack. And the Mafia."

Destil
04-06-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm not sure limiting the accusations after a point are a good idea.

Remember the Marion thing? What if something like that (yes I know it happened 'cuz he was accused bear with me here) happened after the mark, but it was too late to accuse the obviously guilty guy? What about reactionary accusations in peoples' defense posts, which often make them out to be even more guilty?Reactionay accusations could still pull on anyone else already accused, and while you could suddenly end up in a position where you can't vote for who you want to I think it's fair enugh. Anyone who makes a move that puts the defendent into that position would be called out on it, hard. I was considering the possibility of someone accusing every player in turn early in the day so that they could sweep in at the last second. But both behaviors would attract so much attention it would be pretty self correcting. Gaming the vote system a little is TOTALLY part of the stragety and I'm not about to remove it, I did my fare share in East (one of my goals was to split the vote as much as possible, to force the mafia to move as a pack to get somoene lynched. Worked really well on day two, but we missed it).

Something like Marion would be dealt with via the GM's iron fist, much like it was this game (banned before he could be lynched in both games).

Calorie Mate
04-06-2010, 03:34 PM
sweetdiculous.

A bold statement, my friend.

Phantoon
04-06-2010, 03:57 PM
I'm voting Nich, although I would personally be very interested in a rousing game of The Thing first.

SpoonyGundam
04-06-2010, 03:59 PM
Except Safari's perfectly fine for everything else I use - it's just TT that it acts up with.

I don't think I can associate myself with a man that uses Safari.

I'm going to have to vote for dtsund this round. He uses the browser I trust.

Rai
04-06-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm all for any game that has me lynching anything that moves. Who knows, maybe I'll survive three in a row despite my best efforts to get my ass lynched in the end game! I guess what I'm saying is that I want to play!

More specifically, I'd love to play The Thing, especially if people who became part of the Thing got Percies in their PM box. That would tickle me pink. Or orange. Whichever color Percy decides he is. That said, I'm up for anything.

Umby
04-06-2010, 04:47 PM
I voted Paul Le Fou, because his power roles to me are balanced enough and changed enough to make the game new again, and interesting to play. Taking out the power roles makes the game a guessing game, which is not fun to play, because it really doesn't give any material to work on. Less power roles does mean a more balanced game, though, albeit a boring one.

I did vote McDohl the first time through because I liked his theme and the idea, but this time around, I think Paul has the best idea.

Garrison
04-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Well Nich, you won me over with the Don. You got my vote.

Umby
04-06-2010, 05:03 PM
It is possible, if you're paying attention, to look back on who said what about whom, particularly after a few bodies have been buried, and see the patterns.

It's true, but I've played a few mafia games myself, and if you're going to play a game like you're setting up, you better have clues in your flavor text. I mean, not a lot as to make every turn a huge search through your flavor text for clues, but maybe dropping a reference here and there just to make things interesting.

dtsund
04-06-2010, 05:04 PM
It's true, but I've played a few mafia games myself, and if you're going to play a game like you're setting up, you better have clues in your flavor text. I mean, not a lot as to make every turn a huge search through your flavor text for clues, but maybe dropping a reference here and there just to make things interesting.

Please don't do this. I can't imagine how infuriating that would be for the Mafia.

Umby
04-06-2010, 05:06 PM
Then again, I take back what I'm saying. This isn't Facebook, and therefore there isn't a lot of places clues can allude to. Never mind.

And by roles, I mean roles on both the citizen's side and the mafia's side.

Alixsar
04-06-2010, 05:26 PM
I can't even believe this thread exists.

Alixsar
04-06-2010, 06:13 PM
It's a thread where people are trying to decide what ruleset to use to play a game but no one can agree on which one. But everyone can agree that they want to play as soon as possible, and everyone agrees that pretty much each ruleset would be okay for the most part.

Why doesn't one of you just start a game rather than talking about starting one? It's a forum game, it's not rocket science.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 06:15 PM
Why doesn't one of you just start a game rather than talking about starting one? It's a forum game, it's not rocket science.

Gentlemen's rules: We're putting it to a vote so we won't feel annoyed/like we missed out/jealous when someone starts up the next game ahead of us. If we lose out, at least it'll be fair and square.

Alixsar
04-06-2010, 06:26 PM
I know but those are all the same reasons I would use to explain why this entire concept is ridiculous. A game on a forum for a forum about games, with a thread to sign up for a game when no one has decided which game to play. It's like some sort of hole in the universe or something.

SilentSnake
04-06-2010, 06:28 PM
ALIXSAR BEHAVE YOURSELF OR SO HELP ME

Alixsar
04-06-2010, 06:36 PM
ALIXSAR BEHAVE YOURSELF OR SO HELP ME

What? I'm just saying it's funny! A game on a forum for a forum about games, with a thread to sign up for a game when no one has decided which game to play. It's a ridiculous concept! It's funny! I understand why this thread is here and I certainly don't intend on interrupting their game but it's like...that's funny! It's a funny concept.

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 06:44 PM
ITT Alix can't think of anything to hate so he just trolls instead.

Destil
04-06-2010, 08:11 PM
Nearly anywhere else we'd have either 3 mafia threads running right now with minimal participation in each and a thread or two flaming people in other threads for their preferred rules or the first thread would have died and game two never happens....

Yeah. Talking Time isn't letting anyone down here.

dtsund
04-06-2010, 08:41 PM
Nearly anywhere else we'd have either 3 mafia threads running right now with minimal participation in each and a thread or two flaming people in other threads for their preferred rules or the first thread would have died and game two never happens....

Yeah. Talking Time isn't letting anyone down here.

I know, right? Next he's going to suggest getting rid of the LP signup thread.

Nodal
04-06-2010, 09:06 PM
I know, right? Next he's going to suggest getting rid of the LP signup thread.

Let's merge talking about everything and the pit of flames to save space.

Merus
04-06-2010, 09:14 PM
I know, right? Next he's going to suggest getting rid of the LP signup thread.
No, he has to talk about how Cave Story sucks before he does that.

ALSO, I WANT TO PLAY

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 09:21 PM
ALSO, I WANT TO PLAY

You're already on the list, Merus. Geez.

dtsund
04-06-2010, 09:34 PM
I would like to play too.

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 09:38 PM
I would like to play too.

So are you!

Brickroad
04-06-2010, 09:41 PM
I want to play.

...with Pappy's head. DANCE, PUPPET, DANCE.

dtsund
04-06-2010, 10:03 PM
So are you!

Oh. My apologies.

Merus
04-06-2010, 10:05 PM
Hey guys my bold button's broken

PapillonReel
04-06-2010, 10:12 PM
I hate you all.

Eddie
04-07-2010, 05:40 AM
Because I'm writing this on a Wii and quoting someone is murder on one...

Papps, I reiterate that the inspector is a powerful role, but without Angels and Oracles backing it up it isn't runaway powerful. Adding Vigilantes and the like not only tips things heavily towards citizens, it also forces you to add more mafioso to compensate.

Also, it shouldn`t be easy to find mafia; in East game we were literally lynching and shotgunning semi-randomly because the chances of hitting mafia was so high. The little tells people leave are enough; the entire point of the original ruleset is that many citizens will die before you strike mafia gold. If it seems like a crapshoot, well that's the point!

- Eddie

PapillonReel
04-07-2010, 06:01 AM
Papps, I reiterate that the inspector is a powerful role, but without Angels and Oracles backing it up it isn't runaway powerful.

Again, I reiterate the example of Mr. J - even without Angelic protection, he tore away the advantage the mafia had in one reveal by outing one of their own and removing suspicion from a very prominent citizen. The fact that we were able to come back from a game that was, up to that point, near certainly a Mafia victory after his reveal is honestly proof enough that the role needs some serious rebalancing.

Adding Vigilantes and the like not only tips things heavily towards citizens, it also forces you to add more mafioso to compensate.

I've nothing against the Vig simply because he hurts his team just as much as he helps it - even Guesty, with his high batting average, was nailing a Citizen every now and then, not to say anything of spineshark (who hit Citizenry nearly exclusively in round 1). The fact that it's done without a trial means that a player has no chance to defend themselves, actually making it so a prominent role can go down before they have the chance to post any relevant information - matter of fact, the only reason Mr. J was able to get his reports out was because we announced our targeting him ahead of time. It's only when you add in inspections that the Vig suddenly becomes so dangerous, when he has decent targets picked out for him by a certain role on the team while the Citizenry paint the town red.

Also, it shouldn`t be easy to find mafia; in East game we were literally lynching and shotgunning semi-randomly because the chances of hitting mafia was so high. The little tells people leave are enough; the entire point of the original ruleset is that many citizens will die before you strike mafia gold. If it seems like a crapshoot, well that's the point!

Then edit the Inspector or remove him entirely, then. If you want people to really start looking for tells and holes in people's stories, you have to make them earn it - giving them a maaagical role that does all the thinking and investigating for them will only exacerbate the boring strategy and easy Mafia lynches that everyone wants to tone down. He's the most powerful role in the game for a reason, and that's because his information is impeccable and relying on it is optimal strategy.

And before you mention the potential for a Mafia imposter: It's a dead-end, strategically. You can't name any Citizenry as guilty verdicts without getting your ass lynched, and building a bloc only buys time for the real deal to inspect around and nail your ass. Remember how Dizzy surprised Ruik round 1 when he tried to front the Oracle (a much easier role to impersonate)? Same deal, except worse because hey, odds are you'll be the first one to go since you'll be the inspection that confirms his identity.

Eddie
04-07-2010, 06:16 AM
Yeah but in the games we have played, a mafioso pretending to be an inspector is dangerous not because it's easy to prove him wrong by himself, but because the other roles (Oracle in particular) prevent them from lying. Angels allow bloc building and yadda yadda so the inspector role gets out of control.

Also note that the original game (I believe) has no "identification on death" aside from guilty/not guilty and no angellic protecting makes the Inspector role less reliable, since there is no 100% confirm. It becomes much easier therefore for an Inspector to be faked, particularly when the # of mafioso is low (at least, this logically works in my head).

- Eddie

p.s. I am all for removing power roles entirely tho, as I've said before.

ThornGhost
04-07-2010, 08:08 AM
I suggest we just go ahead and start with whoever's currently winning and see how we like their modified ruleset. Further discussion about the power-roles and ratios can go on concurrently with the game in another thread.

As broken as it (possibly) was, people clearly had fun playing and spectating last game or this next round wouldn't have the interest that it does. We can't be certain how any rule will play out without playtesting, so I say we just pick one and start.

Merus
04-07-2010, 08:31 AM
I feel like the Inspector is vitally important to ensure the Mafia have a satisfying time. Consider what would happen if there's no power roles, just Citizens and Mafia.

What do the Mafia have to talk about at night?

The Inspector gives them a target, something to do other than just picking off the least suspicious players, and gives them the same kind of fun as the Citizens have trying to identify Mafia among them. The Inspector getting one over the Mafia is devastating, and so they have to prevent that from happening. But the Inspector should only be able to pull off that trick once.

Part of the problem was that there were more Mafia, which makes it easier for the Inspector to find a Mafia player. We did this because we were stating to realise that the Mafia were at a disadvantage, but didn't think to look at the other power roles and decided more Mafia would compensate.

Guesty
04-07-2010, 09:14 AM
I'm in. I'll be most active this week as it's spring break for me.

Calorie Mate
04-07-2010, 10:28 AM
What? I'm just saying it's funny! A game on a forum for a forum about games, with a thread to sign up for a game when no one has decided which game to play. It's a ridiculous concept! It's funny! I understand why this thread is here and I certainly don't intend on interrupting their game but it's like...that's funny! It's a funny concept.

You guys...he is completely right. It isn't bad (nor is he saying it's bad!), but it is funny.

I feel like the Inspector is vitally important to ensure the Mafia have a satisfying time. Consider what would happen if there's no power roles, just Citizens and Mafia.

What do the Mafia have to talk about at night?

This is a very good argument.

spineshark
04-07-2010, 10:33 AM
The Vigilante is definitely not a wash for the town. Who has the highest chance of killing Mafia, the Mafia, the town or the Vigilante?

...I rest my case.

Brickroad
04-07-2010, 10:39 AM
You guys...he is completely right.

Alixsar has never been right about anything in his entire life.

This one time, for SCIENCE, they strapped him to a chair and had him speak aloud a guaranteed truth: "The sky is purple." As soon as the words left his mouth reality as we then knew it twisted in and around itself so that the sky was now (and had always had been) blue.

And that's the story about why the sky is blue.

(Also let's play Mafia now plz.)

Alpha Werewolf
04-07-2010, 12:34 PM
No comments about the queue idea? At the very least, it saves time between games because there's no need to poll it up.

spineshark
04-07-2010, 01:41 PM
Okay, but I'm assigning roles now (I'm running Nich's rules because he wants to play them) so that's the last one.

Destil
04-07-2010, 01:48 PM
Vote spineshark by voting Nich by voting shivam!

spineshark
04-07-2010, 01:49 PM
I knew I should've made that joke yesterday when we started talking about this!

edit: hashing out flavor and role pms! game will start basically as soon as i figure out how the night communication will work

Rai
04-07-2010, 04:56 PM
Honestly, I rather like this short time period between games. I still haven't read through Mafia East (Something about school and client projects, I don't know, ask me again when I'm not working on single digits of sleep for multiple days), and this is good decompression time. I, for one, wouldn't have nearly as much fun if we just immediately jumped to the next game.

Destil
04-07-2010, 06:00 PM
I agree. I can't imagine how stressful (in a good way) it must be to be mafia. I was sinking lots of time and effort into the game even with the long pauses where I didn't need to contribute.

spineshark
04-07-2010, 06:12 PM
Speaking of which, the game isn't starting tonight, since somebody told me they won't be available until Friday night, and I definitely don't want to leave them out of the game for more than a day or so to start with. Starting tomorrow night is not out of the question, but more likely I'll try and get out all the preliminary materials tomorrow night and then say "Go!" when I get a minute on Friday (which could be anywhere from early morning to late afternoon) I apologize for the delay, but rest assured, things will be
sweetdiculous

Sprite
04-07-2010, 06:17 PM
No comments about the queue idea? At the very least, it saves time between games because there's no need to poll it up.

I think we should poll every game we play. We need the data from current rulesets to decide what we want to try later.

Also, there are people like me who can't play this time, but will next time, and thus don't feel right voting in this game while wanting to have a say in the next one.

Also, what Rai said. Mafia's exhausting, and we need breaks.

Nodal
04-07-2010, 08:41 PM
Mafia's exhausting, and we need breaks.

THE INTERNET AGE

Alpha Werewolf
04-07-2010, 10:04 PM
Remember to count me out, spineshark.

Alpha Werewolf
04-08-2010, 11:35 AM
I remembered!


Thanks! And again, nothing against you - I dislike role-light games is all.