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spineshark
04-08-2010, 10:15 PM
spineshark presents: Nich's Mafia Game 3!

The R-10K was, for a long period after its creation, the most advanced computer simulation ever constructed; the first to be worthy of the term "virtual reality." Spanning dozens of towns in a vast countryside and boasting over a hundred thousand "programmed life," all at least somewhat aware of their world, its designers were so proud of their work that they ultimately saw themselves forced to make the hardest choice any of them could imagine: they had to set it free. Locking themselves out of nearly every administrative function, they contented themselves to watching it from a distance

But slowly, contentment turned to horror. Errors had cropped up in several processes, and they had begun to act...strangely. It appeared that they had managed to alter certain protocol in the system for their own purposes, but what could those purposes be? They did as much as they could with their limited options still available, quarantining the area and preparing to load a backup, but the backup itself could not be used in such a state. The situation would have to resolve itself.

The non-broken programs would still have a chance. The system kept a running tally of the town's "thoughts," and when a certain level of consensus was reached, they would be able to execute their decision. But the rogue operations could also eliminate the good ones during the low-power cycles used to simulate nighttime, if not worse...

Players:
Dead:
Nodal (found to be Clean on Day 1)
Guesty (killed on Night 1)
PapillonReel (found to be Clean on Day 10)
Comb Stranger (killed on Night 10)
Brickroad (found to be Corrupt on Day 11)
Byron (killed on Night 11)
Bongo Bill (found to be Clean on Day 100)

Alive:

Calorie Mate
Chady
demonkoala
Destil
dtsund
Eddie
fanboymaster
Garrison
kaisel
Kayma
Loki
McDohl
Merus
Mr. J
namelessentity
Nich
Paul le Fou
Phantoon
Queen Possum (Replaced by VorpalEdge)
Rai
The Giant Head
ThornGhost
Tock
Umby
vaterite

Roles:

? Mafia
? Citizens
1 Don
1 Inspector

Rules:

We start with the day phase. During the day phase, no players may communicate with one another about the game except in this thread. No private messages, no IM, no talking about it in real life (if some players live close enough to one another for this to be possible), nothing but this thread. Discussion in this thread, however, is permitted at any time during the day phase. Editing your posts is forbidden, so everything you say will be a matter of public record.

To account for the size of the game and to bolster the paranoia a bit, no day may pass without a lynching. If there is no majority vote by the deadline, the player with the most accusations will be lynched. In the case of a tie, the tie will be broken randomly by the GM. If the town decides en masse to accuse no one, the GM will randomly choose a citizen--not a player--to be lynched.

If a majority of players all accuse the same person, that person has 24 hours to launch a defence, and 24 hours from starting the defence to convince people to change their vote. If, at the end of 24 hours, a majority of players continue to accuse them, they are lynched and ejected from the game (they are allowed a farewell post to wish others well); his or her role is made publicly known, and the day ends.

Day will last no less than 24 hours but no more than 72 hours. If a successful vote occurs within 24 hours (either to lynch or to proceed with no lynch), it will not be acted upon until 24 hours have passed. During this time, players may continue posting and change their votes if they want. If someone is first accused within the last 24 hours of the day, they will be allowed 24 hours to make a defense post, that they may not be killed while offline without reprise, but no new players may be accused past the 72-hour mark. To make accusations clear, please use the following phrase, bolded:

I accuse spineshark.

Accusations are not set in stone once made, and may be changed at any time. Newer accusations supersede older ones.

The town will learn the affiliation (Citizen or Mafia) of the lynched party, but not their special role, if they had one.

After a lynch, the game proceeds to night, which lasts 48 hours. In the night phase, it is still against the rules for most players to communicate about the game outside of this thread. Additionally, posting in this thread about the game is forbidden at night. The only exception to the no communication rule is that the Mafia are allowed to communicate privately, but only at night. They may do this to discuss strategy for the next day as well as decide on who to kill that night.

A summary of each role follows:

Standard Process (Citizen): May discuss in this thread during day; may not do anything at night.

Rogue Process (Mafia): Each night phase, you must privately confer among each other to target one townsperson for a hit. Your nominations need not be unanimous, but it must be a majority vote, and there must not be any dissenting votes. After 48 hours, if no consensus is reached, the GM will choose the name that seems most agreed on. After the hit, the Mafia will learn whether their target was an ordinary citizen or the Inspector.

Scanner (Inspector): Each night phase you may nominate one player, via PM to the GM, to inspect. If that player is a Rogue, you will receive a Corrupt verdict. If they are not, you will receive an Clean verdict.

Virus (Don): The Virus is a Corrupt (Mafia-aligned) player who may, once during the game and only during the night phase, choose a townsperson to recruit to the Mafia. The recruited townsperson will immediately thereafter be included in private night discussion and may participate in the Mafia's decision on who to hit. If the Virus and Scanner target the same player on the same night, the Virus will be considered to "activate" first, returning a Corrupt finding to the Scanner.

spineshark
04-08-2010, 10:16 PM
Role PMs should hit soon, but as before, the game doesn't start until I say "go" or something reasonably synonymous tomorrow.

spineshark
04-08-2010, 11:05 PM
And everything's out now! Unless I messed up one of the Civilian PMs by using regular send instead of BCC, but I'm feeling sufficiently confident that I did it right. (If not, somebody please say so before things get going)

Destil
04-08-2010, 11:54 PM
Eight bytes walk into a bar. The bartender asks, “Can I get you anything?”

“Yeah,” reply the bytes. “Make us a double.”

fanboymaster
04-09-2010, 12:22 AM
Building consensus

Tock
04-09-2010, 12:36 AM
I'm not as familiar with this kind of setting as some of you, so I'm hoping I can get a few pointers.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 01:20 AM
Ok, so I'm a regular joe this time around. I'm a little disappointed I didn't get rolled Mafioso this time around (I wanna kill people ;_;), but it should be an interesting change of pace playing vanilla so what the hell. I've got a lot more free time this round too, so hopefully I'll be able to keep a closer eye on some of you and dig up some information of actual worth.

So, uh, yeah. Let's do this thang.

Paul le Fou
04-09-2010, 01:33 AM
011100010101010101010101011

Rules clarification question: you say we have to lynch, but what happens if there is not a majority vote at the end of the day? Is the person with the most votes automatically lynched? Even if that's like, 2 idle votes from the first few hours? What if there's a tie between two people?

00110100111010100101010101011101 BEEP BOOP

(Why yes I do plan to make every post like that)

Paul le Fou
04-09-2010, 01:36 AM
fuckin' A no edits already:

Sorry, just saw the addendums in the post above. LET'S DO THIS

Beep boop.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 01:49 AM
Also, I vote we refer to the corrupt units in this game as Scum, to honour Alpha Werewolf's brave sacrifice in deciding to stay out this round. All in favour, scumbags?

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 01:52 AM
(Psst, guys, the game hasn't actually started yet! Wait for spiny to give the "go" signal.)

YOU CAN'T CONTROL ME

Destil
04-09-2010, 01:56 AM
(Psst, guys, the game hasn't actually started yet! Wait for spiny to give the "go" signal.)

Acknowledged. IO stream shutting down.

Alpha Werewolf
04-09-2010, 03:24 AM
If the game hasn't started, it means I can still post here. And I'll go ahead and say:

Also, I vote we refer to the corrupt units in this game as Scum, to honour Alpha Werewolf's brave sacrifice in deciding to stay out this round. All in favour, scumbags?

THIS

spineshark
04-09-2010, 07:34 AM
Interface connecting...

On-line. No problems detected.

"Hmm, it still doesn't see anything wrong." Sprite told VorpalEdge.

"Damn, that means we still can't really do anything. All we can do now is wait."

-----------------------------------------

"I'm tired of waiting," said PapillonReel. "This is too important to hold up all day. I'm starting the meeting now, whether you all are ready or not."

-----------------------------------------

"Oh wait, let's check the consensus. They just woke up, so if it's empty then it at least *might* be working right."

Suspected Processes:
...
...
...
...
...
None found. Processes voted: 0.

"Well, even if things turn out horribly, this should be interesting, wouldn't you say?

It is now Day 1.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 07:41 AM
FRIST

lol internet

spineshark
04-09-2010, 07:43 AM
Comb Stranger was late for the meeting because he tripped on a rock and fell in the mud.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 08:08 AM
This iteration, if nobody has a plurality accusatoin by nightfall, a confirmed citizen gets lynched? My first instinct is to make sure we never let that happen -- though on the other hand, that's kind of as good as an Oracle, isn't it? If someone with a known vote history gets GMLynched, we KNOW that their list is not a mafia plot, right?

Er, a corrupted data plot, My AI Brothers. May your bytes be uncorrupted forever.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 08:09 AM
Greetings fellow Standard Process Applications! Simulations I have run previous have resulted in my demise after the first and second low power cycles. In an effort to boost my lifecycle I will be performing my duties in a wishy-washy manner until the third low power cycles.

Providing example:

Brickroad, I find your virtual avatar's headgear to be unsuitable for the Brachyura you are pretending to be... maybe?

ERROR. Closer examination of Brickroad's virtual avatar indicates the byte controlling it's Brachyura suitability is unsigned. Disappointment.

- Eddie

Loki
04-09-2010, 08:15 AM
If anyone says scum I will personally reticulate their splines. You're first Papillon!

The main thing we need to do is get the Virus. With him(it?) alive(?) we don't stand a chance. Virus, please come forward. I know you won't do it willingly, but I like to think that the guilt of being such a pooper will cause you to give yourself away. So I give you this out: post immediately after me. That way we'll know it's you without you having to give yourself up.

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 08:26 AM
This iteration, if nobody has a plurality accusatoin by nightfall, a confirmed citizen gets lynched? My first instinct is to make sure we never let that happen -- though on the other hand, that's kind of as good as an Oracle, isn't it? If someone with a known vote history gets GMLynched, we KNOW that their list is not a mafia plot, right?

Er, a corrupted data plot, My AI Brothers. May your bytes be uncorrupted forever.

There is no reasonable reason we should ever let the GM lynch a citizen - that rule is there specifically to make sure we lynch. The absolute WORST we could do is what will automatically happen if we do nothing.

With this rule, consider a citizen death the baseline. Any lynch we make has a chance of hitting a rogue. That is a preferable outcome.

Loki
04-09-2010, 08:28 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, ThornGhost is the Virus.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 08:41 AM
Okay well now that we know that ThornGhost is the virus, our road is a lot smoother. Great strategy Loki!

Also I am not going to talk like a computer. If anyone is disappointed by that, eat me.

Our information sucks right now and there's no way to get more at the moment. Also we're at a disadvantage because we have no idea how many rogues are out there. So I think a good first step might be to estimate the number of rogues. Last game there were 6/19 mafia, and that seemed like a lot, except the ruleset prevented them from winning. This game the ruleset has changed quite a bit, so I'm betting the good/evil ratio was kept about the same. I'll let someone else do the math, because i r teh suk at numbers, but it should give us a good baseline to work from.

Since we're most likely going to hit a citizen I mean standard today, I suggest starting the same way we started Mafia East: give all our newbie players immunity, and from the remainder pick the player least likely to be able to help the Standards win. Then we kill them. Delete them. Whatever the terminology is in this game.

If they're Rogues, hey, we're one up. If not, well, they weren't gonna do much for us anyway, were they?

So here's the list of people I propose we give a free pass to day two:

Bongo Bill
Calorie Mate
Chady
Kayma
Nodal
Queen Possum
The Giant Head
ThornGhost

To you guys: you're welcome. Prove to us you can be an asset!

This isn't just a repeat of Game 2 East Day 1, though! We have a little more history to work with now. Specifically, here's a list of people who have played once but only as Mafia:

Byron
demonkoala
Garrison
McDohl
Tock

These people know how the game works, but haven't applied their skills as citizen. So crazy as it sounds, I say we give them a pass to Day Two as well. You folks are also welcome. (But now you're obligated to help us win.)

So here's the list of people we should think about lynching today:

Comb Stranger
Destil
dtsund
Eddie
fanboymaster
Guesty
kaisel
Loki
Merus
Mr. J
namelessentity
Nich
PapillonReel
Paul le Fou
Phantoon
Rai
Umby
vaterite
...and, of course, the ever lovable Brickroad.

If it plays out similar to how it did in East, the person on this list who contributes the least today is going to stand out. So I suggest all you people hustle your shits up and show us you aren't planning to drop out.

Right now I'm leaning towards fanboymaster. As I recall he played in Mafia 1 but dropped out partway through. Way to contribute big guy! You gonna do us better this time around? If you can't help us win I have no use for you.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 08:42 AM
I am not suggesting doing any such thing at this time - the rules of the simulation mean that our chance of even targeting a power role is poor, and with no understanding of our citizen/mafia ratio, we can't make a targeted mathematical risk based upon it. In any case, a citizen confirmation would do us no good at this point in time, anyway, since we have no upon which to base the accusation; I am certain our programmers, in their wisdom, must have considered this.

BUT at some point in time, and maybe for a single power-cycle only, when all citizens have suspicion lists up, we could allow it to happen, to have a guide to follow. We have an inspector; this game will be all about taking every scrap of information we can get, and letting none go to waste. I am only suggesting one way that we could get it.

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 08:45 AM
Yeah, I'm the Virtual Iris - a part of the visualization program for camera to monitor data flow. Filename v-iris.exe.

That's what you said right? V-IRIS?

Kylie
04-09-2010, 08:48 AM
That was in response to ThornGhost. In response to Brickroad: that's definitely a starting place. Unfortunately, if you're a Rogue (and I'm sure you are jumping with glee at just the thought, if you are), then it's a wonderful way to lace your party with at least some temporary immunity. And yes, I realize that I'm getting some immunity out of it. Don't mean you can't still be wrong.

I propose that we start the days with at least a placeholder accusation, so that we do not KNOWINGLY let any day go by with a citizen lynch.

Rai
04-09-2010, 08:50 AM
But doesn't the Virus only work once? That's not really that big of a deal, especially with the number of rogues unknown. We definitely have to hit a process though. I'm just afraid that the ratio between Virus/Normal is something like 1:3.

McDohl
04-09-2010, 08:50 AM
I accuse Nich, because I fucking can. I want that fucker dead.

Yeah, bitch, I'm being suspicious. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

Wait, what game are we playing?

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 08:51 AM
I propose that we start the days with at least a placeholder accusation, so that we do not KNOWINGLY let any day go by with a citizen lynch.

I accuse Nich, because I fucking can.

Well, there you go, Byron! =D

Kylie
04-09-2010, 08:56 AM
re: Rai

It is a HUGE deal. Our lynch strategy, in the best of worlds, becomes more solid as we gather more information. The Virus can take a single piece of that information, including the inspector, and turn it against us. If we go our whole game working off of Confirmed Trustworthy evidence that has been corrupted, we have a hard road ahead of us. It is, and I hate to say it, one reason a citizen lynch might not be an entirely bad idea -- the Virus CANNOT corrupt dead information. It's the only thing we'll be able to trust.

BECAUSE we can only trust dead information, running lists of citizen suspicions are necessary. If you're on the gallows, or the Recycle Bin, or whatever, we need to know who you dislike, as in previous games. And since anyone could be deleted any given night, we need as MUCH information flowing as possible.

I am suspicious of Brickroad, and any other early posters. ANYONE who starts to lead the standards for any real period of time, in this game, probably deserves judicious deletion before endgame.

vaterite
04-09-2010, 08:57 AM
...and, of course, the ever lovable Brickroad.

If it plays out similar to how it did in East, the person on this list who contributes the least today is going to stand out. So I suggest all you people hustle your shits up and show us you aren't planning to drop out.

Last time the ratio was ~30%, so if that roughly holds we can expect 10-11 (out of 32) rogue programs.

Obviously we all agree with Loki that it'd be great to eliminate the virus (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijPE7fe4XTg). However, we won't know even if we do, since we only find out when we lynch if someone was corrupt or not. I think we'll have to operate under the assumption that we won't stop the virus, and that someone who is with us now, will become infected.

At the moment Brickroad is the most likely target for a late game defection, because he's been the most visibly trusted member in the preceding games.

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 09:01 AM
BUT at some point in time, and maybe for a single power-cycle only, when all citizens have suspicion lists up, we could allow it to happen, to have a guide to follow. We have an inspector; this game will be all about taking every scrap of information we can get, and letting none go to waste. I am only suggesting one way that we could get it.

I suppose it is an option, and good to know, but I can't ever imagine a situation when we'd rather have a suspicion list than a dead mafia. The suspicion lists are a good way to make sure an accidental citizen lynch isn't entirely wasted, but, at least in my opinion, they're not a goal that trumps killing a rogue.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:02 AM
I am suspicious of Brickroad, and any other early posters. ANYONE who starts to lead the standards for any real period of time, in this game, probably deserves judicious deletion before endgame.

Agreed 100%, especially while the Virus is in play.

...and with that, I go to bed for the day. I hope when I wake up we'll be on page five and this thread = shit + fan.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:05 AM
I think people might be overestimating the amount of viruses present. Keep in mind that less power roles should lead to less viruses. I would probably peg the number around 20% myself...

... I think? I'm not 100% sure!

- Eddie

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:06 AM
Sorry I meant rogue programs or whatever, not viruses, as there is only one virus...

...perhaps?

- Eddie

kaisel
04-09-2010, 09:07 AM
I think the most suspicious thing that one can do in this game, is staying relatively quiet. The only information we have to work with is people's posts, so the more we talk, the more chance that someone will do something suspicious.

Another idea that I had, though I don't know how good it is, is that in the next few days we should post either a suspicion list, or a strategy of how you're going to play the game. Weak strategies or one's that seem like there's a lot of flaws could at least give some logical basis for lynches. Although we tip our hand to the mafia, and we run into the problem that some people might just suck at strategy (like me for example).

vaterite
04-09-2010, 09:09 AM
in the next few days we should post either a suspicion list

After last game, I am f#@%ing done with posting suspicion lists, unless someone makes a pretty good argument for them.

Rai
04-09-2010, 09:20 AM
After last game, I am f#@%ing done with posting suspicion lists, unless someone makes a pretty good argument for them.

So what would you argue we use in their place? Just because you ended up lynched by one doesn't necessarily mean they're terrible. They just have the ability to be flawed, not that they're worthless.

Suspicion lists are being formed regardless, typing them up allows others to see exactly what you're thinking and why you're thinking it. They give information, something we desperately need in this game. Unlike the previous iterations, we don't have a 100% guaranteed way to procure good information. If lists are posted, then at least something can come out of a potential Standard lynch. So lists are good, even if we don't really have enough information for one yet.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:22 AM
I think the most suspicious thing that one can do in this game, is staying relatively quiet. The only information we have to work with is people's posts, so the more we talk, the more chance that someone will do something suspicious.

I think previous games have shown that there isn't really a huge difference between speaking a lot and quietly posting. I haven't run any numbers but I don't think you can firmly look at someone who has been quiet and assume they're mafioso trying to blend in (they could be, but many innocent players, including those with power roles, have been quiet as well).

There are only two times in my mind where looking very critically at what someone has said is important:

1) The defense(s) of someone who has been accused. Theoretically, it's in the mafia/rogue program/whatever's best interests to defend their own, or shift blame to innocent players.

2) The accusations of other players. Theoretically, mafioso are going to want to lynch innocent citizens, while trying not to lynch fellow mafioso.

To me, it's more than a simple 'who accused who,' when and why someone accused another player is important too. Now, the fixed Day Phases mess a lot of this up, but I propose the following:

A) When players make an accusation, they should be quite clear why they are doing so. This includes 'follow the leader' type accusations. I don't want to see any "...for all the reasons PlayerX said," I want something meatier, even if the best you can do is rewrite PlayerX's accusation into your own words. Information is power!

B) Before you're lynched, post a suspicion list. while I think posting suspicion lists during the day is kind of unhelpful (they're completely untrustworthy and often arbitrary), posting one right before you're lynched at least gives us a completely untainted (assuming you're innocent) viewpoint we can work off of the next day.

... of course, maybe I don't think that's a good idea? (Being wishy-washy can be a pain sometimes. Come on Day 3!)

- Eddie

vaterite
04-09-2010, 09:31 AM
So what would you argue we use in their place? Just because you ended up lynched by one doesn't necessarily mean they're terrible. They just have the ability to be flawed, not that they're worthless.

Suspicion lists are being formed regardless, typing them up allows others to see exactly what you're thinking and why you're thinking it. They give information, something we desperately need in this game. So lists are good, even if we don't really have enough information for one yet.

You haven't convinced me. I agree we should post things in the thread. That seems kind of obvious. For example, reasoned arguments about who was killed and why or posted under what circumstances and why. But I don't see the value of posting a list of "most suspicious players" because in my experience that leads to a consensus about who to target based on little more than "me too" mentality. This is easy for rogue programs to exploit, and doesn't really lead to any more information.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 09:41 AM
After last game, I am f#@%ing done with posting suspicion lists, unless someone makes a pretty good argument for them.

I actually mostly agree with you, it's just that we have so little else that we can do, that I think it's at least a good place to start. I don't think they should be treated as gospel truth, nor do I think they should factor into discussions for lynching too much.

Actually, the more I think about it, I think just listing the person or two that you find most suspicious might be a good start, if one name pops up everywhere (aside from all the "me too" votes), it might be good to look into that.

I think previous games have shown that there isn't really a huge difference between speaking a lot and quietly posting.

This game is different though, we have no special roles, aside from the Scanner and the Don, and I, personally, don't think we can really rely on the Scanner since there's always a chance that s/he's dead, going to die.

I think we need to encourage a lot of discussion, just to try to get people to lay their cards on the table, which is why I said we should be a little more suspicious of quiet folks, it's a lot easier to hide here, since it's harder to verify people's roles.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:46 AM
Dammit, Eddie, you posted this strategy before I woke up and could do it myself.

Apologies! I am trying to keep a middling profile such that I survive to the third day.

EVERYONE: THAT STRATEGY WAS TOTALLY NICH'S AND I STOLE IT.

..... maybe?

- Eddie

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:48 AM
I think previous games have shown that there isn't really a huge difference between speaking a lot and quietly posting. I haven't run any numbers but I don't think you can firmly look at someone who has been quiet and assume they're mafioso trying to blend in (they could be, but many innocent players, including those with power roles, have been quiet as well).

There are only two times in my mind where looking very critically at what someone has said is important:

1) The defense(s) of someone who has been accused. Theoretically, it's in the mafia/rogue program/whatever's best interests to defend their own, or shift blame to innocent players.

2) The accusations of other players. Theoretically, mafioso are going to want to lynch innocent citizens, while trying not to lynch fellow mafioso.

To me, it's more than a simple 'who accused who,' when and why someone accused another player is important too. Now, the fixed Day Phases mess a lot of this up, but I propose the following:

A) When players make an accusation, they should be quite clear why they are doing so. This includes 'follow the leader' type accusations. I don't want to see any "...for all the reasons PlayerX said," I want something meatier, even if the best you can do is rewrite PlayerX's accusation into your own words. Information is power!

B) Before you're lynched, post a suspicion list. while I think posting suspicion lists during the day is kind of unhelpful (they're completely untrustworthy and often arbitrary), posting one right before you're lynched at least gives us a completely untainted (assuming you're innocent) viewpoint we can work off of the next day.

... of course, maybe I don't think that's a good idea? (Being wishy-washy can be a pain sometimes. Come on Day 3!)

- Eddie

Speaking as Mafia from West Game, the smartest thing we could have done (and actually started to do) was line up the quiet ones and just start stabbing. All the power roles were silent players, except the inspector. Silence means nothing conclusive, except perhaps that you are being unhelpful. There are no power roles in this game. There is NO reason to remain silent. You are helping nobody.

Vaterite: I know suspicion lists do not help you, and in fact got you killed last game because the engineer of that plan picked the wrong criteria upon which to judge the lists. The point of the lists now is not to help individual citizens survive - this is not the point of the game - but to provide a foundation for the remaining citizens to build upon as the game progresses. Also keep in mind that you WON, last game.

I suspect that you knew all of this, though. If you didn't, you should. Suspicion lists are a good idea. You have just raised your voice against a good idea. You have joined Brick and Thorn on my suspicion list.

Rai
04-09-2010, 09:48 AM
Actually, out of curiosity, what's the best way to use the Scanner in this situation? Since we don't have the Angels, we can't exactly have them come out of the woodwork with just any information, but what if they have a definite result? Do they then come out, get infected by the Don, and then strung up? The moment they reveal themselves, they're done, so what's the optimal number of infections to reveal?

And actually, we can't really trust anyone claiming to be the Scanner anyway. If a mafia member claims to be the Scanner, they can have us delete one of their compatriots. The next day, they'll claim another of their compatriots is free from taint, but we'll still delete them anyway. When they turn out to be Rogue, we'll just pass it off as the Don having infected them that night and accept who they claimed was innocent.

This is an interesting challenge. Very interesting.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:53 AM
I think the only logically thing to do is auto-lynch anyone who claims to be the Scanner. As much as it sucks, it's the only way to 100% know that they're telling the truth, before they can become infected or killed by the mafia (leaving their innocence unknown).

This of course means that no citizen can fake being the Scanner/Inspector, but then again I'm not sure why someone would want to fake that under ideal circumstances.

... at least, I think so? Maybe I'm wrong...

- Eddie

kaisel
04-09-2010, 09:54 AM
Actually, out of curiosity, what's the best way to use the Scanner in this situation? Since we don't have the Angels, we can't exactly have them come out of the woodwork with just any information, but what if they have a definite result? Do they then come out, get infected by the Don, and then strung up? The moment they reveal themselves, they're done, so what's the optimal number of infections to reveal?

And actually, we can't really trust anyone claiming to be the Scanner anyway. If a mafia member claims to be the Scanner, they can have us delete one of their compatriots. The next day, they'll claim another of their compatriots is free from taint, but we'll still delete them anyway. When they turn out to be Rogue, we'll just pass it off as the Don having infected them that night and accept who they claimed was innocent.

This is an interesting challenge. Very interesting.

The best strategy, I think, would be to lynch the Scanner-claimant, that way we know they're true, and can't be corrupted by the virus. I'm not too fond of this plan, but I think it's the best, and makes the actual Scanner play a very risky game. Hmm... this is actually a pretty tough choice...

Phantoon
04-09-2010, 09:57 AM
I third the idea of having suspicion lists posted before death. We really don't know very much this time and we need as much information as possible.

We also want the Scanner to lay low for as long as is reasonably safe because as soon as he/she comes forward then they will most likely die.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:59 AM
Agreed here. We MUST delete the scanner. Once they have been revealed, we cannot trust them. Additionally, their "bloc lists" are subject to the same corruption that they are. What we need from the Scanner is confirmed rogue identity. Anything else can be manipulated.

Dear Scanner: PLEASE do not reveal yourself unless a) you are about to get strung up, and b) you have at least two rogue names. This way, we can ensure that anyone coming forward as a pretender will do some damage to the mafia.

We may wish to consider lynching anyone the Scanner names as innocent, as well. Names of innocents do not help us unless they're dead by our hands.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 10:03 AM
Hi guys! Looks like the game started before I could wake up.

I'll read more of the thread in a minute.

Phantoon
04-09-2010, 10:04 AM
I really don't know what the optimal play would be yet. There's limited ability to form blocs as there are no Angels to keep the Scanner alive and no power roles to let us know if the Scanner dies. The Scanner could die tonight and we'd be none the wiser.

In addition, if we do lynch the Scanner all the lynch report will tell us is if they're rogue or not. It won't ever confirm the role for sure.

Kayma
04-09-2010, 10:05 AM
Hello fellow codebabies. Just wanted to check in, since I'm a newbie. Very happy to be here!

Also: lynching the scanner? That's funny. You're funny.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 10:06 AM
I said "may wish to".

We don't want to eliminate all of our own. I personally would suggest the Scanner NOT try to bloc-build. Anyone the scanner names as innocent is doubly suspect, because of the virus.

There is an upside to POTENTIALLY deleting Scanner Innocents, though, which is that if we find a Rogue hidden there, and we have deleted our scanner, it means one thing -- that the Virus's single action has been used. This is incredibly valuable information. I don't know if it's valuable enough to consider lynching our Standards, but it is a tactic worth a mention.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 10:07 AM
One thing I want to caution though:
Because of the Don, if we do decide to clean people by scanner, we can't be sure that the people who were cleaned will stay clean (or that the scanner will stay clean).

Also: Lynching the scanner is stupid. We don't learn if the scanner was really the scanner (just if s/he was a citizen), and we can't use the scanner's resources unless we have a list of cleaned from him (that could change at any time because of the Don.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 10:07 AM
We may wish to consider lynching anyone the Scanner names as innocent, as well. Names of innocents do not help us unless they're dead by our hands.

I'm with Nich. What we SHOULD do is assume all those innocents are just that... innocent. We can't be 100% sure that the "Don" hasn't used their power then, nor that (s)he'll pick one of those so called 'innocent' people. Also keep in mind that these innocent players will likely become a target for the mafia, as they're the only confirmed ones.

The best strategy in my mind is to put that 'bloc' aside and focus on rooting out the guilty players from the remainder. If we need to, we can go back to the 'innocent' bloc.

... I guess. Hmm...

- Eddie

kaisel
04-09-2010, 10:09 AM
In addition, if we do lynch the Scanner all the lynch report will tell us is if they're rogue or not. It won't ever confirm the role for sure.

But if they're not rogue, we can be reasonably sure that they're the Scanner, since it's in no way optimal for an innocent to come out as a Scanner. Actually, on second thought...

I think the safest route is to just lynch anyone who claims to be the Scanner, though there are some riskier strategies (that might yield better rewards) one can use if we don't immediately lynch them.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 10:12 AM
How about this: No one should claim to be scanner and try to build a bloc. The game isn't built for effective bloc building. The scanner should use the info to make more informed decisions for that night.

By the way, do Mafia know when they've been scanned? If so, I can see the Mafia being more paranoid when they know they've been scanned, but not by whom, so they could be more defensive when being accused. Just a thought. I know Nich said so in his proposal, but I don't see it in these rules.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 10:15 AM
I think it should be obvious to everyone that the bloc strategy won't work, since most of the new rules were deliberately created to prevent that from being the best strategy.

As for lynching in the Scanner: For those who think it's a bad idea since we "only" get their role: Why would a citizen pretend to be the Scanner? I can see one use for a citizen claiming to be the Scanner, who's not actually the scanner, but it's a risky ploy, and one I think is ultimately not worth it (though, if it worked, one could form a bloc of some sort).

Eddie
04-09-2010, 10:16 AM
Also: Lynching the scanner is stupid. We don't learn if the scanner was really the scanner (just if s/he was a citizen), and we can't use the scanner's resources unless we have a list of cleaned from him (that could change at any time because of the Don.

I don't want to get into a whole "maybe the inspector is lying" thing, but the only way such a scenario could go bad is if the 'scanner' was in fact, just an ordinary citizen.

Therefore, while the rules certainly allow a citizen to lie, it's probably a really stupid idea. 1) We're going to lynch you, and be trusting a bad list and 2) we won't be able to trust any FUTURE 'scanner' that reveals themself.

No, lynching the scanner is 100% the correct move.


... at least, that's what everyone else seems to think. I wonder?

I actually think Guesty's plan is quite bad (under his suggestion, we can't trust a scanner at all... or they'd be dead the next morning so what's the point?). You're on notice Guesty.

I'm with Nich here too, Byron you're suggesting a very dangerous plan of action. Someone named into the 'bloc' isn't 'doubly suspicious' at all, and bloc-building still seems like it's a powerful plan, even if we can't reasonably add to it after the first scanner reveal.

Also, we need to lynch someone tonight so it might as well be you.

I accuse Byron.


- Eddie

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 10:18 AM
I can see how this might sound suspicious, but it probably needs to be said.

We need to have a deft touch regarding the effects of the virus in this game. Surely, we need to be very careful about who to trust and recognize where the virus might worm its way in and flaw who we trust, but we also need to not scrap a plan in its entirety because of the chance of it being corrupted by the virus. Our own suspicions could do more harm than the virus at that point.

Remember, it's a one-shot thing. If a confirmed scanner comes forward with, say, four trusted names, you can bet that the virus is going to turn one of them. However, that's only 1 out of that 4 person block. A 1/4 chance of corruption per. That's still 3/4 trusted. That's better odds than anyone from the ranks of the unconfirmed.

Again, I'm not saying we discount the virus all together, just that we don't go overboard with throwing out plans because of the chance of infection. Play careful, play smart!

Phantoon
04-09-2010, 10:19 AM
As all three games started with Silent Noise's death I am uncertain of how to start now. We're breaking with tradition here, guys.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 10:20 AM
Hm, good point. Still, the thing I'm worried about is that even if we do have a sizable bloc going, we'd always have the nagging fear that one of them is mafia. That, and a scanner reveal most likely dying because of there being no angels. I dunno, maybe I'm just being too paranoid.

I'm honestly just throwing thoughts out there to think about. If anyone has a better suggestion (and I'm sure a lot of people do) I'm all ears.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 10:20 AM
I'll hold off on accusing anyone, but anyone who says that a citizen might be lying about being the Scanner, without offering any reasoning, is on my list.

No, lynching the scanner is 100% the correct move.
- Eddie

I know I'm talking a lot, but there's exactly one strategy where a citizen claiming to be the Scanner can work: If we want the Virus to waste his one corruption. Granted, saying this makes that a smaller chance, but we can try to throw up a shell game of citizens claiming to be the Scanner, and see if the Rogues corrupt 'em. Though this strategy is very easily infiltrated by the Rogues, so... eh, it's a wash, and only would have worked had we not decided lynching was the best move... damn.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 10:24 AM
It isn't a plan. It was an idea, a thought. By no means do I suggest making it policy. It was a thought, and I gave my reasoning behind it. We wouldn't have to even really consider it unless the Scanner outed himself and gave us an extensive list of innocents. I hope this does not happen any time soon, if at all.

That said, as I am accused, my suspicion list is officially

Vaterite
Brickroad
Kayma
Nich
Eddie

I may have suggested we brainstorm on a bad idea here, but Vaterite was against suspicion lists in general. See my previous post. This is a worse idea. I accuse Vaterite.

Brickroad is suspicious because as nice an idea as it is to give people a fighting chance to show they should stay alive, the probability of them being Rogue in a mostly-random selection is unaltered by their play history or presence in previous games. Cultivating the concept of pseudo-innocent seems dangerous to me, whether or not I am one. We are ALL suspicious at the moment.

Kayma doesn't want to delete the scanner. I want to know why this is a good idea. It might be one! But I don't yet know why.

Eddie's waffling. It is precious and a lovely affectation but it's not really worth anything. We need ideas. If you are a Standard, you can expect to die for your team, as I might today, though really I'd rather not. Unless we are particularly lucky, Standards will die. Anybody pursuing an individual goal, rather than a team goal, is not doing their job as a Standard.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 10:24 AM
Oh man, my first Mafia game!

And...it's inside a computer? Huh. So...this is like Rez, then? Alright, I'll provide the soundtrack:

UNST UNST UNST UNSTUNSTUNST UNST UNST UNST UNSTUNSTUNST

...ahem. Anyway, I'd like to address a couple of things:

Last time the ratio was ~30%, so if that roughly holds we can expect 10-11 (out of 32) rogue programs.

I think people might be overestimating the amount of viruses present. Keep in mind that less power roles should lead to less viruses. I would probably peg the number around 20% myself...

... I think? I'm not 100% sure!

Knock that off right now! The reason the number of roles wasn't released was specifically so it can't be a numbers game! That was by far the worst part of reading the East and West games last time around.

Additionally, it seems suspicious that Eddie's trying to under cut our expectations of how many mafia - er, viruses - are out there...of course, his reasoning isn't terrible, either, so I'll let him off the hook for now. Just...don't let it turn into a numbers game again, guys. It's no fun that way.

I wonder if it might be better this game for the Scanner never to reveal, but just participate "normally" with the added knowledge that he's got a corrupt verdict. It'd give us less surety, but presumably the Scanner would have some reason behind his/her nightly scan that he/she could use as evidence. They'd still have to get over 15 of us to back that accusation, though, which would be an uphill climb.

I kind of agree with this. I mean, if he's REALLY close to being lynched he could say something and hopefully provide us with some clues before he's dead, but since everyone should be posting suspicion lists anyway I'm not too worried abotu it. I mostly don't want the Don using him against us.

Sure, but as soon as we've agreed on that as our strategy, it means the rogues don't have to corrupt anyone. They can sit back and let us waste days hacking each other apart trying to find a "corrupted" innocent who'll never be there to be found. To be honest, I think this is a damaging enough plan that I accuse Byron. :P

I agree with this line of thinking as well. I, too, accuse Byron. (Sorry.)

Kylie
04-09-2010, 10:28 AM
For what it's worth: I was writing my suspicion list before Eddie accused me, and unaware of his accusation. I am now EXTREMELY suspicious of Eddie.

I retract my accusation of Vaterite, and Accuse Eddie.

Additionally: PLEASE do not lynch me quickly. The people moving towards a fast end-of-day are VERY likely Rogue, as we have established that this is a pretty good plan for them.

Merus
04-09-2010, 10:36 AM
So, thoughts!

I'm not sold on the idea that we should be lynching the scanner. Because of the virus, we can't guarantee very much information at all; the only chance we have of getting good information is to get as much out there as possible. We live or die on how much data we have; appropriate, in a way. Obviously it's useful to find out whether or not it was a genuine report, but the Scanner might be more useful as bait for the Virus.

I agree that suspicion lists are a terrible idea, because the mafia generally has to be extremely obvious to draw suspicion. We'd essentially be making a list of the most forceful players. We also have to be somewhat careful about quiet players; last game, many of the quiet players were people who didn't really know what to say.

And, finally, I would love to see PapillonReel as a mafia player. We'd find out his role on day 2 for sure.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 10:43 AM
+++ INITIATE ROGUE PROCESS TERMINATION EXTENSION +++ DIVIDE BY CUCUMBER ERROR +++ COMMENCE DEVOURING OF BRICKROAD+++

I kind of agree with this. I mean, if he's REALLY close to being lynched he could say something and hopefully provide us with some clues before he's dead, but since everyone should be posting suspicion lists anyway I'm not too worried abotu it. I mostly don't want the Don using him against us.

Yeah, I was going to post that once I caught up with the thread, but then someone did.

Incidentally, PapillonReel (sic), why did you feel the need to point out specifically that you have no role? That sounds rather suspicious to me, but I won't necessarily accuse you for it...

dtsund
04-09-2010, 10:46 AM
Byt'e way, I cannot see a good reason for standard processes to ever come forward as the scanner. All that's gonna happen is we lynch him/her and gain no information, wind up suspecting he's the scanner, and get a bunch of useless verdicts that may or may not color our lynches down the line.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 10:46 AM
Basically, once a Scanner comes out, I guess we should trust his verdicts until the day we get a guilty verdict - if he's Rogue Process trying to throw us off, he'll at least hand us one or two of his comrades first.

This brings up a good question, though: if the Virus and the Scanner select the same person at night, what are the order of operations? Will the Scanner get a Clean verdict, followed by the corruption, or will the Virus corrupt, and then the Scanner gets a Corrupt verdict?

spineshark
04-09-2010, 10:47 AM
Suspected Processes:
Byron (3 votes):
Nich
Eddie
Calorie Mate

Eddie (2 votes):
Byron
Merus

Nich (1 vote):
McDohl

Brickroad (1 vote:
Tock
This brings up a good question, though: if the Virus and the Scanner select the same person at night, what are the order of operations? Will the Scanner get a Clean verdict, followed by the corruption, or will the Virus corrupt, and then the Scanner gets a Corrupt verdict?
I'm not sure this ever occurred to either Nich or myself. My first response is pretty strong towards one of the options, but I'll make a ruling before the day ends. And it's kind of extremely unlikely in the first place.

Tock
04-09-2010, 10:49 AM
Since we're most likely going to hit a citizen I mean standard today, I suggest starting the same way we started Mafia East: give all our newbie players immunity, and from the remainder pick the player least likely to be able to help the Standards win. Then we kill them. Delete them. Whatever the terminology is in this game. If they're Rogues, hey, we're one up. If not, well, they weren't gonna do much for us anyway, were they?

I was all for this plan last game, because I was Mafia and Brick's plan gave immunity to four of us. It's just not a good strategy, especially with an even longer immunity list this go-round.

I'd actually like to propose my own Day One plan from the East Game: lynch the least-active person. First, because it's too easy to hide using minimal activity. Second, because inactive players get auto-lynched anyway, so it's a clean kill for anyone overly concerned about terminating a Standard Process. Yes yes, I was Mafia in East, but I would have put that plan forward regardless, and honestly I almost screwed myself over by having to lynch Bodhi (thanks for showing up last to the party, Umby!).

Anyway, because lynch rules work differently this time around, I accuse Brickroad as a placeholder lynch, for bad strategery, and because we never wound up killing him in East. But I'm switching my accusation to the least-active process at the 48-hour mark.

Merus
04-09-2010, 10:51 AM
More thoughts:

I'm... not sold on Byron as Rogue. I think he's a forceful player with bad ideas, and lord knows I've lynched enough of them, but as I said earlier there's lots of players who are forceful and wrong; Nich was one last game, and dwolfe was before that.

I'm leaning more towards the people jumping on the bandwagon to lynch someone; Nich, maybe, but he has a history of being trigger-happy. Eddie was the one that turned it from Nich being bloodthirsty to a viable vote, and it seems unlikely that mafia would start a vote when there's plenty of people they can say 'me too' to.

I accuse Eddie.

I want to clarify my speculation about baiting the Virus with the Scanner; if the Scanner comes out, we can assume that if they're not whacked, they've likely been turned, and so they're likely to give us valuable insight into mafia strategy by what they do. I mean, if we're going to lynch them anyway, it might as well be in a way where we get to see a mafia player going about their business. It's like what happens when we lynch a mafia player and get to go trawling through their history for clues, except we can see it happening in real-time.

Destil
04-09-2010, 10:54 AM
Compiling sub-directives. Engaging IO stream. Suspicion matrix initialized. Retaliating splines....

As for lynching in the Scanner: For those who think it's a bad idea since we "only" get their role: Why would a citizen pretend to be the Scanner? I can see one use for a citizen claiming to be the Scanner, who's not actually the scanner, but it's a risky ploy, and one I think is ultimately not worth it (though, if it worked, one could form a bloc of some sort).

Wait, what? Lynching the scanner is a terrible idea the turn they come into play. There are no angles in this game. If the scanner is online and known then they will either be
A) Deleted
B) Infected
this will happen the following night.

If the rogue processed know we intend to lynch the scanner the second it's in the open, then they will simply kill someone else and save their virus usage. If nothing else this needs to be left open to debate so we can not give them such an optimal algorithm to execute.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 10:56 AM
Personally, I think Byron dropping his last accusation to Eddie as soon he was accused also seems suspicious.

Of course, Eddie doesn't seem innocent, either. Hmm.

I'm not sure this ever occurred to either Nich or myself. My first response is pretty strong towards one of the options, but I'll make a ruling before the day ends. And it's kind of extremely unlikely in the first place.

It's more likely as the game goes on, though - especially if someone's acting really suspicious. I don't know.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 10:59 AM
I'm going to give Eddie the benefit of the doubt on the first day because he seems to realize that this is a different game from the previous ones, and might be modifying his strategy some.


I want to clarify my speculation about baiting the Virus with the Scanner; if the Scanner comes out, we can assume that if they're not whacked, they've likely been turned, and so they're likely to give us valuable insight into mafia strategy by what they do. I mean, if we're going to lynch them anyway, it might as well be in a way where we get to see a mafia player going about their business. It's like what happens when we lynch a mafia player and get to go trawling through their history for clues, except we can see it happening in real-time.

I can see this as good strategy, to be honest. I'd still say the safest course of action is lynching, but it's by no means the most rewarding strategy.

Wait, what? Lynching the scanner is a terrible idea the turn they come into play. There are no angles in this game. If the scanner is online and known then they will either be
A) Deleted
B) Infected
this will happen the following night.

If the rogue processed know we intend to lynch the scanner the second it's in the open, then they will simply kill someone else and save their virus usage. If nothing else this needs to be left open to debate so we can not give them such an optimal algorithm to execute.

It makes it really risky for the mafia to front the Scanner, which is probably my biggest fear.

Destil
04-09-2010, 11:03 AM
After last game, I am f#@%ing done with posting suspicion lists, unless someone makes a pretty good argument for them.Statement determined to be 99.58% likely to be correct, despite emotion extraction routine detecting pent-up frustration driving it.

Rogue processes can not be expected to preform so poorly this method would work, and if they do there are easier ways to detect them.

Suspicion matrices for those about to be deleted, however, are a supported protocol.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:04 AM
Tock's idea seems terrible to me. If we lynch an inactive, we lose an opportunity to make a useful lynch (against Rogues) and if a Standard is inactive, we can't save him or her. If a MAFIA is inactive for a full period, then we're rather lucky and don't NEED to lynch them. Aside from the information, I guess, but that's a debatable gain for the loss of a lynch opportunity.

re: Merus - suspicion lists serve a single purpose, which is to confirm that the people on the list were not selected out of a Rogue attempt to manipulate lynches. When the Rogues propose a lynch, we can bet there's a reason behind it. Standard suspicion lists are at least free of THAT manipulative odor.

re: Nich - Why I'm suspicious of Eddie - Because I was Mafia last game, I know what the bad guys want. What they want is to manipulate information, lynch citizens, and do it with speed, so that actual conversation never occurs. As soon as you accused me, Eddie was right on his tail, and Calories was right on HIS. Both pretty much said "That idea was bad, and you should die for it, Like Nich Says." You may recognize this tactic from Mafia West 2. I certainly do, as I used it. So you will understand if this strikes me as suspicious, given that it is candy for Rogues -- a chance to get a vocal Standard deleted right off the bat, quickly, without allowing very much time for conversation at all. My accusation of Eddie stands, and I append Calories Man to my suspicion list.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 11:06 AM
But kaisel, don't we want to make it risky for the Mafia to front a scanner?

Unless I'm totally misinterpreting what you said.

EDIT: Byron posted while I was thinking. I was responding to kaisel's post on the previous page.

Tock
04-09-2010, 11:07 AM
Wait, what? Lynching the scanner is a terrible idea the turn they come into play. There are no angles in this game. If the scanner is online and known then they will either be
A) Deleted
B) Infected
this will happen the following night.

It's possible that, if the Scanner manages to keep hidden for a long enough time, the Virus converts someone else--a prominent, trusted player, say. It's not a given, but I can see the strategic value in that, if the Rogues feel like they can't wait for the Scanner to show and need to tip some groupthink their way. Were I the Scanner, I'd feel a lot better about revealing myself on Cycle Five than, say, Cycle Two.

Scanner: keep your head down unless you're about to be lynched. Besides, once you reveal yourself, you'll probably get lynched anyway.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 11:08 AM
I'm liking keeping the supposed Scanner alive - as I said, if they're not offed in the night, it's likely they've been turned. From that point forward, we can follow their lynch advice because either a) they're still on our side and will possibly give us some Rogues; b) they're turned and will feed us at least one guilty guy to throw us off; or b) they're turned (or a Rogue front) and will feed us innocents, meaning we can off them the next night, and a one-for-one swap isn't too shabby.

Tock
04-09-2010, 11:10 AM
Tock's idea seems terrible to me. If we lynch an inactive, we lose an opportunity to make a useful lynch (against Rogues) and if a Standard is inactive, we can't save him or her.

0) I'd rather kill an inactive Standard than an Active one
1) We can't save inactive Standards anyway, as they are terminated at the end of the Cycle.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 11:11 AM
But kaisel, don't we want to make it risky for the Mafia to front a scanner?

Unless I'm totally misinterpreting what you said.

EDIT: Byron posted while I was thinking. I was responding to kaisel's post on the previous page.

My grammar is terrible today, basically: If we say we want to lynch the Scanner it makes it difficult for the Rogues to pretend to be them. Which is good, because my biggest fear is the Rogues fronting a Scanner. Hence why I think lynching the Scanner after the reveal is the safest choice.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:11 AM
Convince you that I had an idea that was bad? You suggested lynching five citizens in a row last game. Bad ideas a Rogue do not make.

I don't know if I can convince you, so here's a different game: What can I give you that will be useful to the Standards when and if you collectively decide to string me up?

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 11:13 AM
Byron - as I said, Eddie already suggested there were lower numbers of Rgoues in this game, with no way to actually back that up. It may have just been a stupid comment, or it may have been planted to make people more complacent. He's certainly not innocent.

However, I agreed with Nich's reasoning about you, and you haven't convinced me otherwise yet. I'm open to it, though. We've got plenty of time. (I'm sorry if it felt like I was rushing - it's my first day, and I'm eager. I'll try to reign it in.)

Tock
04-09-2010, 11:16 AM
Tock's idea seems terrible to me. If we lynch an inactive, we lose an opportunity to make a useful lynch (against Rogues) and if a Standard is inactive, we can't save him or her.

Hit submit too early. Anyway, I agree it's unlikely we kill a Rogue with this plan on Cycle One. To be honest, though, it's unlikely regardless. Our strategy right now basically boils down to hitting an active poster who is willing to stick their neck out and accuse someone, hoping they might be Rogues. In absolute game terms, an active Rogue is more useful than an Inactive Standard.

Because I was Mafia last game, I know what the bad guys want.

I would advise against assuming that this game will run identically to last game, or that this group of Mafia will think identically to you. To assume both is downright dangerous.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:22 AM
Dear Mr. Calories:

Feel free to agree with other people, that is fine. I never made any statement regarding Eddie's made-up-numbers. If you are defending yourself against my suspicions, you are being extremely sensitive about it. I know you are excited to play mafia, and I know you don't want to die on day one.

Again, please refer to mafia 2: west, as, again, I used this exact strategy as a first timer, which Nich referred to as "Well gosh golly gee I sure do love mafia guys!"

You are now firmly on my suspicions.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 11:23 AM
One more thing:
We shouldn't rush to night just yet. I'm thinking wait until everyone has had the opportunity to post at least once. The town can't get any info on silent players.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 11:28 AM
Feel free to agree with other people, that is fine. I never made any statement regarding Eddie's made-up-numbers.

No, no, I was backing you up because I found his statement suspicious. I'm agreeing he's suspicious...though I guess everyone is. You know what I mean.

If you are defending yourself against my suspicions, you are being extremely sensitive about it.

Well...kind of. I guess, but it's more like, I'm trying to get a feel for having a discussion. I just want to be clear about my line of thinking on both of you, is all.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 11:32 AM
I will revoke my accusation of Byron if it looks like it's going to get close to ending the day, because yeah, the more time we have the more time the Rogues have to slip up.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:32 AM
grrrr no edits:

Nich: Then I've at least done my job as a standard process. I would love to continue doing this job. I only proposed a method of finding out whether or not the Virus had used his or her power. That's my defense: hey guys, I had a shabby idea. To be honest, I like you for Rogue right after Caloric, since you seem pretty quick to insist that someone who exhibits the same flaw you did time and again MUST be a bad guy, and you don't like the idea that the people who line up behind you in SECONDS to bandwagon are MORE suspicious than I am. And if the citizenry as a whole agrees with you, then they'll lynch me and have some valuable non-mafia information on which to proceed.

If they agree with me, and I'll admit that I hope they do, they'll take a nice long look at Eddie, and Calories, and you. Either way, I have pretty much done my job up to this point, and will continue to do so until I AM hung, or otherwise exonerated.

Tock: I know this ain't M2:W. But I do believe that if the purpose of the Rogues is to win, in the same way we would have won last game, then it is absolutely in their best interests to see citizens lynched, and to do so with all haste. There is no reason for a Standard Process to rush to verdict; we have three days. Even if they don't think like me, they're acting extra-suspicious for Standard Processes.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:33 AM
No, no, I was backing you up because I found his statement suspicious. I'm agreeing he's suspicious...though I guess everyone is. You know what I mean.

Well...kind of. I guess, but it's more like, I'm trying to get a feel for having a discussion. I just want to be clear about my line of thinking on both of you, is all.

Fair enough! Suspicions not assuaged, but at least I understand your first point.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:35 AM
Adjunct to my last post: Wait, Cal, if you're backing my point up w/r/t suspicion of Eddie, why are you accusing me?

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 11:40 AM
I retract my accusation of Byron.

See, I was persuaded by Nich's (and others') reasoning when I jumped in the game, and found (and still find!) you more suspicious than Eddie, if only by a hair. You're right, though, it's silly to accuse someone when I'm this unsure. I'll let the day play out and make my choice in the end.

Merus
04-09-2010, 11:41 AM
re: Merus - suspicion lists serve a single purpose, which is to confirm that the people on the list were not selected out of a Rogue attempt to manipulate lynches. When the Rogues propose a lynch, we can bet there's a reason behind it. Standard suspicion lists are at least free of THAT manipulative odor.

Considering how jumpy people are going to be, I would expect that they'll likely go for anyone that makes themselves suspicious. They'll never get away with starting a lynch against someone unless they can come up with reasons why they want to lynch. Tock got caught by that last game. So the reason will usually be "we can get away with it" and the tactical kills will be saved for night.

Anyway, the mafia can pretty easily defeat the suspicion list by just posting the five players everyone else has been accusing. It's no skin off their nose if they finger a mafia player that everyone else is about to lynch anyway, and it gives them cover to boot.

I know it seems like information, but it doesn't tell us anything we don't already know, and it gives the mafia ways to hide their colours.

If we consider, then, that the mafia are trying to get away with nudging the vote, then we want to look at the votes that nudge people onto a bandwagon on the first day. Later on, when votes can start without mafia involvement, they're more likely to be bandwagon jumpers. Eddie seems to fit this criteria, as do I, apparently.

Once again Byron reminds me of dwolfe making appeals to authority when people question his logic. I reckon he's probably clean for that reason.

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 11:41 AM
Yeah, we need to slow the hell down with all these accusations. This game's only been running a few hours at this point.

Additionally:

We have to lynch the scanner as soon as they reveal themselves. Mafia need to know that they're going to lose anybody they front as a scanner, and we need to be able to get confirmation for the real scanner's mafia hits. This is the one way we're going to get 100% confirmed information in this game. There's not much of it to go around, so we have to take what we can get.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 11:41 AM
I want to clarify my speculation about baiting the Virus with the Scanner; if the Scanner comes out, we can assume that if they're not whacked, they've likely been turned, and so they're likely to give us valuable insight into mafia strategy by what they do. I mean, if we're going to lynch them anyway, it might as well be in a way where we get to see a mafia player going about their business. It's like what happens when we lynch a mafia player and get to go trawling through their history for clues, except we can see it happening in real-time.

Wait, what? Lynching the scanner is a terrible idea the turn they come into play. There are no angles in this game. If the scanner is online and known then they will either be
A) Deleted
B) Infected
this will happen the following night.

I think the point is that lynching immediately on reveal is the only way we can be sure they ever were the scanner (barring a regular process fake, which, as everyone has said, is highly unlikely). The rogues' best play that night would be to convert, not kill, since killing the night after the reveal would be as good as a confirmation. That means the very next day after the reveal, you can basically count on that scanner being a rogue. It's only if we lynch that day that you can tell the difference between a clean process and a corrupted one--afterwards there's no way to tell if it was the rogues fronting a fake or the genuine scanner who got corrupted.

I'm liking keeping the supposed Scanner alive - as I said, if they're not offed in the night, it's likely they've been turned. From that point forward, we can follow their lynch advice because either a) they're still on our side and will possibly give us some Rogues; b) they're turned and will feed us at least one guilty guy to throw us off; or b) they're turned (or a Rogue front) and will feed us innocents, meaning we can off them the next night, and a one-for-one swap isn't too shabby.

Oh come on, people. When and if the Scanner comes forward, the three possible things the Rogues can do is this:

1: Leave him alone. I think we can safely discount this possibility.

2: Convert him. But they won't do this either; I mean, seriously. Why in the name of segmentation faults would they convert someone who would then obviously be Rogue and thus destined for a lynch? Therefore, they will

3: Kill him. Which is the same thing they'd have done if they'd fronted a fake Scanner and had him survive to night, so we learn nothing from our Scanner's results.

Killing our Scanner the moment he comes forward is the only thing we can do.

Incidentally, I accuse PapillonReel. I still think him saying 'LOL CITIZEN' and dropping off the face of the earth is a bit suspicious, and I know I said I probably wouldn't accuse him for it, but I don't know what else to go on just yet.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 11:43 AM
Aargh, ninja'd by ThornGhost.

And on that topic:

Yeah, we need to slow the hell down with all these accusations. This game's only been running a few hours at this point.

There's nothing wrong with accusations at this point, as long as we don't actually accuse one person so much that they get terminated.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 11:47 AM
I actually think there's a bigger danger of the Virus turning one of the innocent people the Scanner reports to us, if and when he ever comes out.

The Scanner is an obvious target, and I think they'll probably let our own paranoia tear him apart, laughing because they know we'll assume he can be turned after any given night.

I don't know. This is...complicated.

chady
04-09-2010, 11:47 AM
BEEP BORP BOOP BEEP BOP BORP BOOP

Just checking in, I'll give the thread a more thorough read sometime today at work. I'll be back tonight, and then we will root out the malevolent processes amongst our system.

But first, my quick two cents RE the inspector: I think the optimum play is going to be for the inspector to try and influence the thread in an indirect manner, until he or she is able to build up a relatively solid block of evidence to present all at once (at least two or three mafia, or a really good number of citizens). It's risky, because the inspector could get randomly hit, or a named innocent can be converted, but done correctly I think it gives the most bang for the buck.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 11:48 AM
I say that we leave the Scanner issue till it actually becomes a problem, since there's disagreement over it. I still think lynching is the best thing we can do, especially since the Rogues can easily keep him alive, and not infect him just to keep us paranoid, or front their own Scanner, or any number of tactics.

For me, the huge issue of wanting to keep the Scanner from not being lynched is a warning flag to me, so dtsund seems a bit suspicious to me. Since the whole point of saying we lynch the Scanner is to keep the Rogues from fronting one, and it's so much easier to throw one of your own under the bus in this game to confirm one as a Scanner, since we don't know the total number of Rogues.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 11:49 AM
As for my suspicion:
Eddie pings my gut more than Byron. The whole idea of a bloc is that it's supposed to narrow down who we should lynch, but if any of these could be turned by the Don, what would be the point? He could just be a civvie with a bad idea, though, and I want to hear from more people, which is why I'm hesitant.

kaisel
04-09-2010, 11:49 AM
And by dstund, I mean Destil, dammit. I'm an idiot. Frickin' no edits.

Merus
04-09-2010, 11:50 AM
Oh come on, people. When and if the Scanner comes forward, the three possible things the Rogues can do is this:

1: Leave him alone. I think we can safely discount this possibility.

2: Convert him. But they won't do this either; I mean, seriously. Why in the name of segmentation faults would they convert someone who would then obviously be Rogue and thus destined for a lynch? Therefore, they will

3: Kill him. Which is the same thing they'd have done if they'd fronted a fake Scanner and had him survive to night, so we learn nothing from our Scanner's results.

Killing our Scanner the moment he comes forward is the only thing we can do.

The only reason I can think of for them to convert the Scanner would be to sow a little chaos, but considering they'd be expecting it, I think you're probably right. I'm still a little thrown by the idea that the Scanner is basically not going to survive the game. Sorry, whoever that is!

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:51 AM
Re: Nich - Why should we let you live?

I'm here, I'm contributing, I'm advancing dialogue, and I'm doing my best to ferret out the Rogues. I have no idea what standard play is from the citizen side of things, and I don't mind being accused if it brings us closer to victory, as hopefully it will. If standard play is to lynch people with bad ideas, what would have happened to you in M2:W? Or to Bricky in M1, whose suspicions proved consistently wrong?

I will try from here on out to conduct this business without reference to previous games, it's a cheap sort of tactic.

I had a bad idea. I am inquisitive, and I'm not shy about putting ideas forth. This is not the Byron Show, and I hope it never is. I am not leading Standards - at least, not intentionally. Anybody who does, for a majority of the game, should be checked - and by checked, I mean lynched. I rely upon the body of citizenry - and I think it is safe to assume that we outnumber the Rogues - to look at my plans, go, "eh, that was bad", and ensure that we do not execute the bad plans. Dialogue exists to come up with ideas, and find holes in them. Anybody who goes right along with any idea of mine -- or yours, or Brick's -- should be held under the highest suspicion.

I have bad ideas, but I'm not stupid. Stupid is worth lynching, and we've seen it crop up before. But I flatter myself to think I'm not, and that makes me worth keeping alive.

Merus
04-09-2010, 11:51 AM
I keep forgetting to say this, but it needs to be said: I'm very disappointed that we didn't start at day 0.

Tock
04-09-2010, 11:52 AM
They'll never get away with starting a lynch against someone unless they can come up with reasons why they want to lynch. Tock got caught by that last game.

Actually, if I read Mr. J's post-game report right, he inspected me because I was suspicious of Destil--I didn't accuse him until Game Two, at which point I had already been found out. I think that's kind of bogus, but it also won the game for the town so what do I know.

I'm wary of any tit-for-tat on Day One, i.e. you made an accusation so you must be a Rogue, but if you're a Standard we'll lynch your accuser Day Two, etc. I'm also wary of deeming all bad play as malicious play--sometimes a bad idea is just a bad idea. Yes, I did accuse Brick for just this reason, but it's because he really ought to know better.

Also, no reason to panic around ending the day early just yet. Byron has what, three votes? I think seventeen's a majority right now. Plus, defense posts are good information. So accuse away!

Tock
04-09-2010, 11:56 AM
Actually, if I read Mr. J's post-game report right, he inspected me because I was suspicious of Destil--I didn't accuse him until Day Two, at which point I had already been found out.

editttssssss

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:58 AM
Re: Merus: Re: Day O

Very yes.

Re: Merus: Re Byron and Dwolfe Sitting In A Tree

Appeals to authority? I'm not really sure what you mean by that. If you mean "Confronting Nich" then yeah... he's my accuser, and the only one to front a reason I should be accused. But being like dwolfe doesn't make me clean of suspicion. It didn't make Dwolfe clean of suspicion, either. :) Please enlighten me.

And dtsund's opinion on the Scanner echoes my own, but he's pretty unassailable there. Can anybody come up with something ELSE the Rogues would do when our Scanner stepped forward?

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 11:58 AM
Since the whole point of saying we lynch the Scanner is to keep the Rogues from fronting one, and it's so much easier to throw one of your own under the bus in this game to confirm one as a Scanner, since we don't know the total number of Rogues.

The whole point is not quite to keep the rogues from fronting one, but also to confirm that they are, in fact, the scanner.

There is a small grace period for any claimed scanner, the time between making the claim and that night, that we can get a 100% certain ID on them. That is because the virus works at night.

Once a claim is made, we have to act during that time period, or the scanner becomes suspicious due to infection. If we lynch him the next day for confirmation and he pings rogue, we can't know if he had always been one, or if he was converted the night before. Therefore, the data they present is next to useless.

I hope everyone understands this. There are other ways to play, yes, but this is the one way in this entire game to positively ID mafia. Personally, I'm going to take it no matter what. If you claim to be the scanner, I will accuse you. Period. I hope you appreciate it.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 11:59 AM
Re: Nich

Ah, I didn't realize it was a Marion comparison. In that case, yes, you were totally right to lynch him and I hope that if I sunk to Marion levels, you'd lynch me. It'd be merciful.

You are reinvited to my birthday party again.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 12:01 PM
That...actually made me think, Byron. You're right, of course, that putting ideas forth shouldn't be punishable by death. That's a bit harsh.

I think we're all jumpy - many of us are new, and the others haven't played a variant like this. So what we perceive as a bad idea might just be that - a bad idea. We of course need to be mindful of Rogues putting bad ideas out there on purpose to float a strategy, but since they haven't had time to even talk, I think you deserve a pass. For now.

Also:

I keep forgetting to say this, but it needs to be said: I'm very disappointed that we didn't start at day 0.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 12:02 PM
This no edits thing is killing me.

My last post refers to your post that starts "Re: Nich - Why should we let you live?" Byron.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 12:02 PM
I accuse Nich and Brickroad two turns from now.

If the [Corrupted Protocols] have been paying any attention whatsoever to the previous games, they're both GIANT TARGETS.

With no angels to protect them, they can be picked off whenever the [Corrupted Protocols] want. They'd also make damn fine conversion targets. If I were [Corrupted Protocols], I'd vote to convert one of them the very first night; if they get one early, there's little time for them to establish a good course of action, and therefore easier for them to switch to a misleading play without bringing suspicion on themselves for changing stances.

Of course, if the [Corrupted Protocols] don't learn from games 1-3, they might let them live/act freely for awhile, figuring they're too suspicious to be trustworthy. But as we all know, half the forum would follow Nichroad off a cliff if they posted about it enough, so it's probably not something they're willing to risk.

I imagine they pose a better target for recruitment than the scanner, because he can't be protected. The odds of the scanner hitting [Corrupted Protocols] is most likely slim, and the odds of him getting multiple hits before being whacked/forced out even slimmer. After that, he's dead. Probably by our own hand, if we find it necessary to validate him. Nichroad have proven very capable of surviving intense scrutiny and bending public perception; exactly what the [Corrupted Protocols] need. The odds of them being [Corrupted Protocols] on the first day is still (probably) slim, but after that, I would be extremely skeptical.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 12:06 PM
I accuse Nich and Brickroad two turns from now.

If the [Corrupted Protocols] have been paying any attention whatsoever to the previous games, they're both GIANT TARGETS.

With no angels to protect them, they can be picked off whenever the [Corrupted Protocols] want. They'd also make damn fine conversion targets. If I were [Corrupted Protocols], I'd vote to convert one of them the very first night; if they get one early, there's little time for them to establish a good course of action, and therefore easier for them to switch to a misleading play without bringing suspicion on themselves for changing stances.

Of course, if the [Corrupted Protocols] don't learn from games 1-3, they might let them live/act freely for awhile, figuring they're too suspicious to be trustworthy. But as we all know, half the forum would follow Nichroad off a cliff if they posted about it enough, so it's probably not something they're willing to risk.

I imagine they pose a better target for recruitment than the scanner, because he can't be protected. The odds of the scanner hitting [Corrupted Protocols] is most likely slim, and the odds of him getting multiple hits before being whacked/forced out even slimmer. After that, he's dead. Probably by our own hand, if we find it necessary to validate him. Nichroad have proven very capable of surviving intense scrutiny and bending public perception; exactly what the [Corrupted Protocols] need. The odds of them being [Corrupted Protocols] on the first day is still (probably) slim, but after that, I would be extremely skeptical.

DAMMIT COMB STRANGER, COULDN'T YOU HAVE KEPT QUIET ABOUT THIS UNTIL DAY 2?

I was going to say exactly the same thing tomorrow, but now the Rogues won't play into our hands quite so easily.

Merus
04-09-2010, 12:08 PM
Appeals to authority? I'm not really sure what you mean by that. If you mean "Confronting Nich" then yeah... he's my accuser, and the only one to front a reason I should be accused. But being like dwolfe doesn't make me clean of suspicion. It didn't make Dwolfe clean of suspicion, either. :) Please enlighten me.

I mean the bit where you told us how mafia would think because you were one, and how it was pretty easy to find the holes. It reminded me of dwolfe in game 1, for which I still bear the scars.

Or scar the bears. One of the two.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 12:14 PM
Ah, I think I see what you're saying, Merus. I just meant "This is what I'd do if I were Rogue -- I mean, hell, it's what I've DONE, since I was verifiably Mafia, and new at that business."

Poor bears.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 12:21 PM
I'm going to laugh when Nich 'n' Brick (heh) were both Rogues from the start.

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 12:35 PM
Alright guys, I have an awesome plan to win, first we have to reveal our angels and then we...
*rereads rules*
oh...

Seriously, my programmic brothers, you are looking at suspicion lists all wrong. They aren't useful at all for "uncorrupted" suspects. Both games have proven that citizens have a tendency to lynch citizens. What the lists do show is who people are afraid to be suspicious of. When we posted lists in West, 6 people didn't suspect Byron, and four of them were mafia members.

Now, of course, since I said that it is less likely, and if you read through East mafia posts you will see they are not afraid to sacrifice their own, but it is a starting point. The trick here is that the information is only useful when
1) We've found a mafia
2) We have enough lists to notice a pattern

My next point, Scanner must be lynched. We can't afford to be susceptible to a rogue fronted one, and we have to be able to trust the information the Scanner puts out. That said, since it is a suicide role, the scanner shouldn't come out until at least 2 rogue results (assuming the numbers are similar to last game, which they probably aren't, so I don't know how long you should wait)

It is not in the Virus's best interest to turn somebody early. Then they are just playing with a larger set, not a great advantage especially since they have just as much chance of getting lynched. They will wait until someone is relatively trusted (and still alive) to turn them. I say probably not until at least night three or four.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 12:42 PM
I'm assuming the Mafia aren't complete idiots. You're assuming not one of them would have had the idea, or brought it up during the night.

"Hey, think we should recruit one of the guys that completely ran the last game?"

"Nah, lets get the new guy. He might be amazing! And let's whack Comb Stranger, he's totally useful!"

If they're that dumb, we have nothing to worry about.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 12:50 PM
Yeah. I'm wondering what the actual value in the statement was, myself.

Garrison
04-09-2010, 12:52 PM
Well damn guys, I wake up and we're already five pages deep into the ether.

I don't exactly have a whole lot of merit say at the moment since I'm still trying catch up. What I do want to say is, Byron, if you're a standard, calm down a bit. Being jumpy is just going to get you killed and through reading all your posts just now, 'jumpy' is the only valid word I can use to describe them.

From a former mafia perspective, I'll point out a few things:

1. Don't assume you'll know what the mafia is going to do. EVER. They aren't going to play into our hands. As much as we think we're going through this thread with a fine-tooth comb, they're going in with a magnifying glass and tweezers. It's way too dangerous to just assume.

2. My number one mafia tactic was to jump on board with whoever the town has in mind. I did this for Umby, Traumadore and probably would have done it again night 3 if Tock didn't ping dirty. Be wary of the second or third person to follow through with an accusation. I'm not foolish enough to say that this means Rogue, but I will say it isn't a bad place to start. Think back and see if what they've been saying meshes together with who they're accusing.

Now that I've said the painfully obvious, I'm just going to lay some opinions down:

A. I don't think the scanner should come out at all. What does coming out do for the scanner or the town? Nothing. Scanner, I'd recommend using your queries to focus the town's accusations if I were you.

B. I don't really have any solid ideas on who should be lynched tonight. I'd lean more towards inactives since they aren't doing the town any good by staying silent. Of course, this is somewhat flawed logic as mathmatically, they're more likely to be inactive standards than rogues.

We've got quite a bit of time, so I think we should slow down with the accusations for now (not that I'm entirely worried at the moment). It is entirely in our benefit to stretch out the day and feed on any information we get.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 12:52 PM
To beh onest, I'm said we've got that meta game stuff going on at all, but it can't be helped.

Tock
04-09-2010, 12:52 PM
dtsund's right: coming out with this plan on day 1 means they can safely assume both of us are going to be lynched eventually and convert someone else instead.

So I guess we can all safely ignore you and Brick, because you're Standards and will remain Standards forevermore? Yeah, no thanks.

Destil
04-09-2010, 01:12 PM
I'm still not sold on lynching the scanner the moment they come forward. It's the safest play for sure, but look at what will actually happen when we come to that point:

1) The scanner will have at least one known rogue, ideally two or three. That or we're about to lynch the scanner, in which case this plan is a lot less useful.
2) We can lynch EVERY known rogue that the scanner has fed us first. If they're a rogue imposer it either becomes apparent very fast (as soon as we hit a normal process) or we get free rogue kills out of it.
3) During the time we spend lynching the scanner's hits (1-3 cycles) they may be infected. BUT THEY MAY NOT. This is huge, if the virus has already acted or chooses to act on a process that we're told is stable, we get 2-3 more scans.
4) We can continue to kill processes the scanner tells us are rogue, as soon as we hit a normal we then kill the scanner. UNTIL then, why bother? We're doing the rogue's work for them, let them waste the night and us not waste the lynch. In the end if our scanner is proven to be corrupted when we lynch them we don't really gain or loose much. We can't ever be sure about previously scanned processes without lynching them, regardless of an authentic scanner or a rogue deception. Also knowing when the scanner could possibly have been infected may give us more clues if we're clever; forcing the virus to act on someone we monitor like a hawk is the best possible thing that can happen.

That said I agree that this isn't the most productive conversation to be having at the moment. It will depend a lot on the numbers(!!) when/if we hear from our scanner. More when I get home from work.

Playing safe may very well no longer be the optimal game plan.

fanboymaster
04-09-2010, 01:19 PM
LONG USELESSLY PONTIFICATING STATEMENT:

Seems like there's a lot of fretting over presumed eventualities. I understand the notion that we want to be prepared, but the mafia sees our preparations and the earlier we make any sort of decision, the longer they have to think about and possibly work around it. Beyond that, suggestions now are inherently tainted by an optimal number of Rogues being there to muddy the waters.

To put it simply, I personally don't see a lot of point in crossing these bridges days before we reach them. I realize there's little else to discuss with so little to go on, but still, it seems a tad early to be running every scenario through our heads when there's still so little to go on.

Man, every time I read this it seems like I'm some arrogant dick talking down to people. Oh well, I guess discussion has to be over something, and the responses might be useful. My thoughts on current talking points.

On Bloc building, I really don't see it happening, I don't see much point in working to make it happen.

On the Scanner, I really don't see much advantage in him or her revealing themselves. Not until the game is winding down at least. The only strategy that seems sound for now is to hope we have a persuasive scanner.

I currently don't find anyone particularly suspicious, but I'm also trusting enough to assume bad players rather than Mafia nine times out of ten.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 01:21 PM
LONG USELESSLY PONTIFICATING STATEMENT:

Seems like there's a lot of fretting over presumed eventualities. I understand the notion that we want to be prepared, but the mafia sees our preparations and the earlier we make any sort of decision, the longer they have to think about and possibly work around it. Beyond that, suggestions now are inherently tainted by an optimal number of Rogues being there to muddy the waters.

These are all valid points, and I'll throw my vote behind them. We have plenty of time to tackle each situation as they come, guys - why give the Rogues a heads up in advance?

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 01:39 PM
No, of course not. I'd think Brick would be a more attractive conversion than myself, since he's proven he actually has some skill at this game rather than wielding the inspector megarole like a blunt instrument, but dtsund's right: coming out with this plan on day 1 means they can safely assume both of us are going to be lynched eventually and convert someone else instead.

In that case, we can trust you!
Except they know that, so they'll corrupt you anyway!
Except they know we know that, so they'll corrupt someone else!
Except they know we'll think that, and corrupt you!
Never go against a Sicilian when deletion is on the line!

And Calories Man, metagaming in this sense can't be helped; scrutinizing personality and actions is the core of the game, especially with so few roles. If Brick suddenly started acting like dwolfe (or me), we'd know something was up; Assuming he's going to be reasoned and levelheaded is the inverse. It's an inherent flaw in games among friends. Pretending we don't know how we all act would cripple our judgment.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 01:50 PM
So I guess we can all safely ignore you and Brick, because you're Standards and will remain Standards forevermore? Yeah, no thanks.

You're kind of missing the point. My original idea was that, assuming Brickroad wasn't Rogue to start with, there was originally a very good chance that he'd be recruited the first night (since the Rogues would have concluded by then that they probably couldn't nail the Scanner with any reliability, so why not get someone persuasive instead), so come Day 2, we could lynch him and have a pretty good chance of getting a Rogue. Significantly better than average, anyway. But now that the idea has been floated *shakes fist*, any possibility of getting those good odds has been completely rm'd.

I'm assuming the Mafia aren't complete idiots. You're assuming not one of them would have had the idea, or brought it up during the night.

I, too, am assuming that they aren't idiots, which is why I thought they'd certainly consider the possibility of converting someone night 1, and if they did that then Brickroad would be the way to go since we were all going 'oh noes, the Scaneer rsults!!11'. Using it night 1 on Brick (this, again, is assuming he isn't already guilty) would be a good way to get a strong player on their side and use up the power before risking the Virus being lynched. And if the Scanner comes forward later? We wouldn't know that the conversion had already been used, so we might just waste quite a few turns whiffing against the confirmed innocents out of paranoia.

I'm assuming you were thinking the same way, Comb, given your original post. But, of course, the contradiction is that it does seem that you were assuming the Rogues to be idiots, since you posted that publically and still assumed it would work.

Unless you're a Rogue yourself and wanted to sabotage the potential for that plan? AAH, wine in front of me, we're all gonna dieeee*slap*

Thanks, I needed that.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 01:51 PM
These are all valid points, and I'll throw my vote behind them. We have plenty of time to tackle each situation as they come, guys - why give the Rogues a heads up in advance?

Day one is a pageant for lynching; we have to judge our competency too. Better to risk deleting an incompetent or inactive Standard than someone who contributes (GUESS I'M UP LAWL). We've already established it's in the Standards' best interests to blather uncontrollably.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 01:53 PM
Rules clarification time: If the Scanner investigates someone and that person is converted in the same night, what result does he/she get?

Guesty
04-09-2010, 01:55 PM
Spineshark said he didn't decide yet, but will at the end of the day.

I personally think the scanner should get a guilty verdict.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 01:56 PM
Lots of stuff

Alright, alright, I probably could have played dumb for a day. Well, at least they'll still be around, being a less-than-prime candidate; the odds of them both winding up Corrupted is (probably) pretty slim.

I wish we knew how many there were, just so I could stop inserting 'probablies' everywhere.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 01:58 PM
Alright, alright, I probably could have played dumb for a day. Well, at least they'll still be around, being a less-than-prime candidate; the odds of them both winding up Corrupted is (probably) pretty slim.

I wish we knew how many there were, just so I could stop inserting 'probablies' everywhere.

Unless... maybe your goal was to make sure that Brickroad and Nich remained free of contamination...

*sobs*

F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5-F5

Phantoon
04-09-2010, 01:59 PM
I accuse Nich and Brickroad two turns from now.

If the [Corrupted Protocols] have been paying any attention whatsoever to the previous games, they're both GIANT TARGETS.

With no angels to protect them, they can be picked off whenever the [Corrupted Protocols] want. They'd also make damn fine conversion targets. If I were [Corrupted Protocols], I'd vote to convert one of them the very first night; if they get one early, there's little time for them to establish a good course of action, and therefore easier for them to switch to a misleading play without bringing suspicion on themselves for changing stances.

Of course, if the [Corrupted Protocols] don't learn from games 1-3, they might let them live/act freely for awhile, figuring they're too suspicious to be trustworthy. But as we all know, half the forum would follow Nichroad off a cliff if they posted about it enough, so it's probably not something they're willing to risk.

I imagine they pose a better target for recruitment than the scanner, because he can't be protected. The odds of the scanner hitting [Corrupted Protocols] is most likely slim, and the odds of him getting multiple hits before being whacked/forced out even slimmer. After that, he's dead. Probably by our own hand, if we find it necessary to validate him. Nichroad have proven very capable of surviving intense scrutiny and bending public perception; exactly what the [Corrupted Protocols] need. The odds of them being [Corrupted Protocols] on the first day is still (probably) slim, but after that, I would be extremely skeptical.

There is at least one reason why rogues may leave them alive - certainly Brick can be quite divisive. Keeping strife in the thread would be good for the rogues, particularly if Brick starts getting in people's faces like last game. "Leading people off a cliff" would suit the rogues just fine.

Also, once only, they can neutralise two people in one night so they can potentially turn a bad situation around more effectively than in previous games.

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 02:16 PM
1) The scanner will have at least one known rogue, ideally two or three. That or we're about to lynch the scanner, in which case this plan is a lot less useful.
2) We can lynch EVERY known rogue that the scanner has fed us first. If they're a rogue imposer it either becomes apparent very fast (as soon as we hit a normal process) or we get free rogue kills out of it.
3) During the time we spend lynching the scanner's hits (1-3 cycles) they may be infected. BUT THEY MAY NOT. This is huge, if the virus has already acted or chooses to act on a process that we're told is stable, we get 2-3 more scans.
4) We can continue to kill processes the scanner tells us are rogue, as soon as we hit a normal we then kill the scanner. UNTIL then, why bother? We're doing the rogue's work for them, let them waste the night and us not waste the lynch. In the end if our scanner is proven to be corrupted when we lynch them we don't really gain or loose much. We can't ever be sure about previously scanned processes without lynching them, regardless of an authentic scanner or a rogue deception. Also knowing when the scanner could possibly have been infected may give us more clues if we're clever; forcing the virus to act on someone we monitor like a hawk is the best possible thing that can happen.

I hadn't thought about it this way, but you are right. We are going to lose a citizen anyways, might as well make it one that reveals when the scanner has gone bad.

Though I agree, we should talk about this when it becomes important, which shouldn't be until at least day 4


though knowing this group I wouldn't be surprised if it happened tomorrow

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 02:18 PM
And Calories Man, metagaming in this sense can't be helped; scrutinizing personality and actions is the core of the game, especially with so few roles. If Brick suddenly started acting like dwolfe (or me), we'd know something was up; Assuming he's going to be reasoned and levelheaded is the inverse. It's an inherent flaw in games among friends. Pretending we don't know how we all act would cripple our judgment.

Yeah, I know. It just kind of sucks because the Rogues are going to eventually find a way to use that to their advantage.

Day one is a pageant for lynching; we have to judge our competency too. Better to risk deleting an incompetent or inactive Standard than someone who contributes (GUESS I'M UP LAWL). We've already established it's in the Standards' best interests to blather uncontrollably.

I suppose that's true, too. CARRY ON, FOLKS.

Tock
04-09-2010, 02:21 PM
Honestly, I'm not keen on trying to lead as much as I did last game anyway, because it's a great way to get yourself killed or converted this game.

And yet you were the first to accuse Byron anyway. DOES NOT COMPUTE

You're kind of missing the point. My original idea was that, assuming Brickroad wasn't Rogue to start with, there was originally a very good chance that he'd be recruited the first night (since the Rogues would have concluded by then that they probably couldn't nail the Scanner with any reliability, so why not get someone persuasive instead), so come Day 2, we could lynch him and have a pretty good chance of getting a Rogue. Significantly better than average, anyway. But now that the idea has been floated *shakes fist*, any possibility of getting those good odds has been completely rm'd.

Unless, as Comb suggested, they out-double-think us and convert Nichroad anyway. But now that I've said that, they won't! But now that ohhhhh godddd my braiiinnnnn

Anyway, while I'm not for assuming the Mafia are complete idiots, maybe we should avoid doing all their thinking out in the thread for them? Maybe it wouldn't be to our advantage for all of us to collectively to examine every scenario one at a time and concoct a foolproof plan for the Don to follow? Just a thought.

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Destil's point regarding the scanner is well said, and I'm not too big to admit I had not considered that possibility.

We do leave ourselves open to a little bit of possible manipulation by the rogues with this plan however. None of them are too great of a threat, but let's get them out in the open so we can be prepared for it if it does come along.

1) This plan essentially means we're going to lynch at least one person that any inspector tells us is guilty. If it turns out that person is a citizen and the scanner likewise a rogue traitor, we'll obviously immediately lynch them. A 1 to 1 trade with citizens outnumbering the rogues is not a good deal for them, and I don't expect them to take advantage of this except in very specific situations.

2) If the rogues decide to kill the scanner after they step forward instead of infecting or ignoring, the information presented will never be truly confirmed. Let us not rule out such rogue shenanigans.

Tock
04-09-2010, 02:35 PM
What would you rather I do when I see someone advancing an idea that seems like a desirable rogue play? Shut up and hope someone else notices?

I'm just saying you can't say "I'm a low-key player and far less deserving of interest from both Standards and Virii than Brick" out of one side of your mouth, and "yo dudez let's lynch Byron" out of the other.

Let me be clear here. I do not, at this time, have particular reason to suspect you, Nich. I said Day One accusations are generally not that substantive, and I mean it. However, I do think you are going out of your way to deflect even cursory suspicion. Day One fingerpointing is inherently circumstantial, so people who get overly defensive this early trip my radar a bit.

In the interests of clarity, here are actions that I find suspicious at this time:

bare minimum posting
excessive me-tooing
anyone who is either pushing to lynch quickly, or lynch "carefully" (because I don't think we have a lot to go on in that regard on Cycle One)
anyone trying to hide in public (i.e., active posters who don't mind accusing others, but immediately go on the defensive when heat gets thrown their way)

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 02:41 PM
Before I go off to work, I have to say that, while I don't want us to lynch too quickly, I am really excited about the flavor text for the deaths this time. I hope they are filled with buffer overflows and script injection attacks and all that nerdly goodness.

Umby
04-09-2010, 02:45 PM
Err, guys? I'm typing this on an iPhone on a hotel bed right now. Please forgive me. I will try to catch up, but it is unlikely. I will be back in full force Monday, and I swear, this will be the last time I am missing the beginning of the game.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 03:02 PM
Also, in the interests of clarity, I'm on the defensive against the future heat from Comb Stranger. I'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic that says (publicly) "We have to kill Nich and Brickroad after day 3 because by then they're certain to be corrupted," because now that it's out in the open, it seems like a really easy setup for the rogues. I wouldn't be arguing the point nearly as much if he was accusing me today.

(I still think it's funny that people are so worried about me or Brick becoming a leader and stealing the game away after getting corrupted when literally nobody is down with his "protect the newbs" plan and my only accusation so far is dead in the water.)

I'll future get you!

Kylie
04-09-2010, 03:14 PM
People are worried because you two have track records. If your accusation died in-water, at least it gave up some info for later, and Brick hasn't spoken for or against any alternate plan since talking about his Fisher Price Newb-Saf Daycrib. He has a record of taking over games, and you sailed the S.S. Inspector straight through icebergs and home safe. If they think you might evolve over the course of this game into leaders of Standard Processes, I wouldn't blame them. It's something else to be cautious of, and we've got plenty.

ThornGhost
04-09-2010, 03:24 PM
I'm about to leave work for the day and won't be able to check in til tonight or later at least. I've been arguing strategy so far, but that only goes so far. Here's my suspicions list at the moment, and why.

Byron - Sorry man, I have a gut feeling you're a standard, but the evidence suggests otherwise at this early point. I'd be happy to be wrong, but you've put forth a couple of very destructive strategies, accused early, and flip flopped the accusation as well.

Calorie Mate - Just a simple case of me-too-ism on the accusations. CM said this was his first ever Mafia game, and me-too-ing is pretty much the first mafia strategy that jumps in anyone's head. There's probably no over-arcing Mafia strategy at the moment, as they can only privately communicate during night, correct?

Eddie - The same as Calorie - quick me-too-ism.

Bongo Bill
04-09-2010, 03:42 PM
Holy goddamnit, but y'all post a lot without saying much of anything.

I always like to start the first day with a completely random vote. Random.org, asked for a number from 1 to 0x20 (the number of players), gives me, interestingly, 0x10; based on that index, I accuse Loki.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 03:47 PM
I'm about to leave work for the day and won't be able to check in til tonight or later at least. I've been arguing strategy so far, but that only goes so far. Here's my suspicions list at the moment, and why.

Byron - Sorry man, I have a gut feeling you're a standard, but the evidence suggests otherwise at this early point. I'd be happy to be wrong, but you've put forth a couple of very destructive strategies, accused early, and flip flopped the accusation as well.

Calorie Mate - Just a simple case of me-too-ism on the accusations. CM said this was his first ever Mafia game, and me-too-ing is pretty much the first mafia strategy that jumps in anyone's head. There's probably no over-arcing Mafia strategy at the moment, as they can only privately communicate during night, correct?

Eddie - The same as Calorie - quick me-too-ism.

Don't be sorry! You think I'm rogue, you distrust me, that's how it goes. There's not really any such thing as evidence at the moment, outside of my voting record. Which I admit, I flip-flopped -- had I waited twenty minutes before posting my original accusation, I'd never've made it.

but you're right -- They haven't strategized yet, so they're just as flat-footed as we are. This is the only time that'll happen.

fanboymaster
04-09-2010, 04:21 PM
CLARIFICATION:

I feel like I should clarify that my prior post, as poorly written as it might have been, wasn't an attempt to urge people to stop talking. Discourse is our only way to get any information, even if that information will then be colored by our suspicions and predispositions. Still, I don't think floating ideas for all sorts of problematic situations is going to necessarily help. I'm just throwing out a friendly "keep some of these ideas under your hat, it might keep the mafia from considering a solution that they need to work around until it is too late for them to fix". Then again, that's already been demonstrated to a degree.

Currently still not ready to accuse anyone at this juncture.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 04:23 PM
had I waited twenty minutes before posting my original accusation, I'd never've made it.

Same with my accusation of you. Again, I'm trying to get the hang of post in a thread where everything is so cut throat - I should have waited until the end of the day to outright accuse. (Although I have no qualms about bringing up my suspicions.)


In any case, how many people still haven't posted? Seems like a lot, still - what's the matter with the rest of you? You should all ignore your work and post in here, like me!

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 04:25 PM
Also, to piggy-back on what fanboymaster just said...I'm torn between hashing out potential problems now just so we keep talking, and not going into it so that we don't necessarily give Rogues a heads up about potential pitfalls they might come across.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 04:48 PM
Oh, I'm not suggesting it's suspicious or anything. I'm just bored.


What is suspicious, though, is how Brickroad left all of a sudden. I mean, honestly, who goes to bed during the day? Something's clearly up with that guy.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 04:49 PM
Oh, I'm not suggesting it's suspicious or anything. I'm just bored.


What is suspicious, though, is how Brickroad left all of a sudden. I mean, honestly, who goes to bed during the day? Something's clearly up with that guy.

Just means he was up all night. Probably whacking someone.

Mr. J
04-09-2010, 04:53 PM
I'm with Nich here too, Byron you're suggesting a very dangerous plan of action. Someone named into the 'bloc' isn't 'doubly suspicious' at all, and bloc-building still seems like it's a powerful plan, even if we can't reasonably add to it after the first scanner reveal.

Also, we need to lynch someone tonight so it might as well be you.

I accuse Byron.


- Eddie

I have a problem with this right here. You just said that we need to have a reason for accusations and then you accuse someone because "well we have to." Wishy-Washy soon becomes dead Eddie. Tread very carefully.

Hey guys? Why don't we not decide what we're gonna do with the scanner until he reveals himself/herself mkay? Positing what we'll do now just gives the rogues more information that they can use. One thing I learned from the last game was that publicly forming plans for events that are >1 cycle away is a bad thing. We can debate this matter when we come to it.

Oh yah, Beep Boop Boop Beep

Kylie
04-09-2010, 05:01 PM
It being brickroad, i generally assume there's something he's trying to accomplish by NOT being here. But maybe I'm reading too much in.

Mr. J! Hi, nice to see you here! Are you actually suspicious of Eddie, or do you just not want him to get caught?

Mr. J
04-09-2010, 05:06 PM
I'm calling him out on his error, but I don't think that it is enough for me to accuse him just yet. I don't want that little nugget to be missed by people rushing to read the rest of the thread.

I just got out of school so I won't be able to post until ~now on weekdays.

spineshark
04-09-2010, 05:43 PM
Especially since Nich agrees, the Virus is considered to act before the Scanner, should it ever become applicable. This was my initial thought, but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that giving [REDACTED] information that was wrong before it could even be used was just horrible.

I will neutrally point out that both Pappy and Brick had regular not-posting-during-real-life-daytime schedules in the previous games =p And QP told me she'd be gone until tonight, which is why the game started this morning instead of Wednesday.

Suspected Processes (17 majority):
Byron (2 votes):
Nich
Eddie

Eddie (2 votes):
Byron
Merus

Nich (1 vote):
McDohl

Brickroad (1 vote):
Tock

Loki (1 vote):
Bongo Bill

PapillonReel (1 vote):
dtsund

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 05:55 PM
Incidentally, PapillonReel (sic), why did you feel the need to point out specifically that you have no role? That sounds rather suspicious to me, but I won't necessarily accuse you for it...

Because I don't have one, duh.

Or do I?

Nah, I'm clean.

Maybe.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 06:04 PM
As all three games started with Silent Noise's death I am uncertain of how to start now. We're breaking with tradition here, guys.

That reminds me; we have to lynch Umby!

I accuse Umby!

...

...

..

I retract my accusation of Umby.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 06:43 PM
Wow 7 pages was a great way to enter in. Anyways, here's how I see the relevant topics so far.

First, vis a vis the inspector. I say they come forward when they have 2 alive mafia, or they are about to be terminated and give us all the info they have, and then we kill them immediately. Sorry inspector! This seems to be one of the easiest ways to get trustworthy information.

Second, I feel we just don't have enough info this round to terminate anyone based on what they are saying. They don't have that much info either, unless of course they're mafia. Therefore I feel we have to think about who were going to lose the least information from if we lynch them. For this reason, I accuse Brickroad.

Sorry Brickroad but you have just been too helpful in previous games. Any time your name comes up it's taken for granted that people believe you trustworthy even if you did give some shoddy advice in your first post. The way I see it, we accuse Brickroad, and he's mafia. Good job! We killed a mafia member. We accuse Brickroad and he's a citizen. This seems bad, but honestly I don't feel we can ever trust him this entire game, except for the unlikely occurrence that a proven inspector see's a person switch from citizen to mafia. Else, he's just too likely a process to be corrupted. He's a major player and definitely someone the mafia would want on their side.

This brings us to the last chance. We off Brickroad and he's the inspector. Oops, that's a major problem. However anyone else we kill is just as likely to be one. That's why I don't feel this is worth worrying about.

So I say Brickroad is rampant, and needs to be zeroed.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 06:49 PM
So we kill someone because he was too useful in previous games? What?

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 06:53 PM
This idea is crazy enough it just might get us all killed! I like that in a plan.

As such, I accuse Brickroad for being an uppity fellow.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 06:55 PM
So we kill someone because he was too useful in previous games? What?

Pretty much.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 06:57 PM
And because he offered a terrible plan at the beginning, that only seemed to make sense but could have been manipulated to exclude many mafioso.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 07:06 PM
Now, I'm suspicious of Mr. Brick, but I don't buy this accusation at all. He was useful in previous games. So was Nich. So were PapillionReel, and Destil. But Brick's been anything BUT rampant in this game. He poked his head in, said a couple of things, and disappeared. He's not controlling the game, or hasn't, yet. And if anybody starts controlling, eventually they have to step up to the gallows.

So either you're committing the ol' Gambler's Fallacy (he was not mafia twice in a row, he's probably rogue now), or you're suggesting that we lynch da brick because you think that he was too good in previous games, and yet "we lose the least information" if we lynch him.

I don't think this is the case at all. There are good reasons to be suspicious of him. I don't think this one washes.

TO ALL STANDARD PROCESSES: We still have some time. But do NOT let this day pass without voting. Since a day can end with a person being lynched for a single vote, if we can't get it together and decide, the Rogues can use their own bloc to steamroll us. SOMEONE has to die, every day. There is never ANY reason to be undecided at the end of the day.

dtsund
04-09-2010, 07:14 PM
So we kill someone because he was too useful in previous games? What?

Pretty much.

Really? Really?

I retract my accusation of PapillonReel.

I accuse Nodal.

Garrison
04-09-2010, 07:15 PM
Yeah, I'm really not getting the whole "let's lynch good players" thing, especially from someone we haven't seen play yet. I'm not nearly ready to accuse anyone but I would like to hear what you have to say about this Nodal.

So what gives, this seems like a really bad strategy.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 07:17 PM
Really? Really?

I retract my accusation of PapillonReel.

I accuse Nodal.

This is compelling, this right here. I don't wanna take my eye off of Eddie, yet, though. He got REAL quiet.

Comb Stranger
04-09-2010, 07:24 PM
That's the most Silent Noisy plan I've heard in a long time. Exactly where did you say you were from, Mr. Nodal? http://www.hitmanforum.com/forum/style_emoticons/hitmanforum/suspicious2.gif

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 07:31 PM
Yeah, I don't want to jump the gun and accuse right away (again), but...the logic of "well, he's been really useful so we can't trust him!" doesn't hold up so well. That was a big red flag, dude.

This is compelling, this right here. I don't wanna take my eye off of Eddie, yet, though. He got REAL quiet.

There's always tomorrow! ;)

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 07:34 PM
I'm not 100% caught up on everything yet so please bear with me folks.

What is suspicious, though, is how Brickroad left all of a sudden. I mean, honestly, who goes to bed during the day? Something's clearly up with that guy.

Hi C-Mate. I work nights, so I keep a mostly nocturnal schedule. Something tells me you knew that already.

Also, get over your fear of metagaming. Metagaming is and always has been one of our most powerful tools, and numbers do play a role in this game. I have zero interest in whether or not you have even one iota of fun playing this game. If you're insist the argument that we should all adopt sub-optimal play because it's more fun, you are damaging my game and I want you gone.

lots of dumb things

Nich said something about how the scanner should never come forward, and I immediately thought, "Wow! I have a new Dumbest Thing I've Ever Read In A Mafia Thread!" Then he yelled at Comb Stranger for stating the obvious (that "Nichroad" is a huge target) and I thought "Wow! I have a new Dumbest Thing etc.".

Nich, calm down. I know it sucks you're not the Inspector anymore. You feel naked. I've been there. Deep breaths. We'll get through this.

We should/shouldn't kill the Scanner upon his reveal!

We MUST lynch the Scanner immediately. Anyone who says otherwise, well, we need to take a good long look at their motives. Someone make a list, because that shit is going to come in handy a couple days from now.

I'll try to post something more substantial in a little while when my head isn't full of so much phlegm I feel like I'm gagging to death.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 07:35 PM
"If you're insist the argument?"

Jesus fuck, Brickroad. Wake up, then post.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 07:44 PM
To be fair, "Lynch the good player" is only part of my reasoning, and it's only my reasoning on the first day, when we have very little info.

Calorie Mate
04-09-2010, 07:50 PM
Hi C-Mate. I work nights, so I keep a mostly nocturnal schedule. Something tells me you knew that already.

Maaaaaybe. :)

Also, get over your fear of metagaming. Metagaming is and always has been one of our most powerful tools, and numbers do play a role in this game. I have zero interest in whether or not you have even one iota of fun playing this game. If you're insist the argument that we should all adopt sub-optimal play because it's more fun, you are damaging my game and I want you gone.

:(

All I meant, with regards to the meta gaming, is that previous games have little bearing on this current one. I'm no more or less likely to trust any of you.

And as for the numbers...well, that shit was boring. Have you read some of the probability stuff in the last West game? It got reeeeal confusing. Of course, I can't even count, so whatever. I'm mostly cautious about the numbers now because, well, there's no basis for us to judge them on, and anyone trying to do so is muddying the waters.

Nich said something about how the scanner should never come forward, and I immediately thought, "Wow! I have a new Dumbest Thing I've Ever Read In A Mafia Thread!" Then he yelled at Comb Stranger for stating the obvious (that "Nichroad" is a huge target) and I thought "Wow! I have a new Dumbest Thing etc.".



We MUST lynch the Scanner immediately. Anyone who says otherwise, well, we need to take a good long look at their motives. Someone make a list, because that shit is going to come in handy a couple days from now.

I'll give you the chance to clear the phlegm and all that, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on why. I've been going back and forth on this all day - do we do that and avoid the threat / play it safe, or do we make some sort of assumption and flirt with danger, in the hopes that we wring some more juicy info out of their actions?

...you know, it doesn't sound like such a hard choice when I put it like that. Hm.

McDohl
04-09-2010, 07:53 PM
Everyone is always suspicious of Brick at all times. That's just how he is.

Lynching Brick means that you're going for a crapshoot of him maybe being a corrupted role. There's nothing wrong with that, especially on day one, but just say so rather than trying to find silly justification.

fanboymaster
04-09-2010, 07:54 PM
EXASPERATED SARCASM:

Yes Nodal, we should kill the player that has proved useful in the past on the off chance he's mafia.

EXPLANATORY STATEMENT:

I understand the whole "We can't be too reliant on someone because we trusted them before" idea. However, your argument to lynch Brick is so poorly thought out it makes you seem like you're either a rogue, or someone whose inability to reason properly makes them a liability. I'm half convinced I should vote for your lynching already, but I figure I need a second look at the rest of the day's posts.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 07:57 PM
All I meant, with regards to the meta gaming, is that previous games have little bearing on this current one.

I can't tell if this is ignorance or naivety.

And as for the numbers...well, that shit was boring. Have you read some of the probability stuff in the last West game?

Well then, sucks to be you, because you signed up for a boring game.

Numbers aren't the whole game, especially under this ruleset. I'm mistrustful of numbers because, like you, I have trouble following them, which means I have to question the motives of the poster. But numbers don't lie, and if they're accurate they can give us a good idea of how intelligent various courses of actions are.

I'll get to the Scanner thing after I've sucked down this bottle of Tussin and cried for a while.

And yeah, Nich, having read this page now I agree Nodal is giving you a good run for your money. It's like Mafia Special Olympics over here.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:21 PM
Guys, guys! It's only for the first day! This is a terrible strategy on any other day than the first when we have zero information. I'm not saying that the reasons to kill Brickroad are huge. I'm saying that we might as well kill somebody, and we have slightly more reason to kill him than others, for all the reasons I've mentioned (first post who not to kill reasoning, etc.). If somebody comes out with a huge reason why we should lynch someone else, I'm willing to go along with it so long as they've done something more egregious than posting a list of who not to kill for various nonsensical reasons that seem like they could have easily been manipulated to exclude mostly mafiosos.

Destil
04-09-2010, 08:22 PM
And because he offered a terrible plan at the beginning, that only seemed to make sense but could have been manipulated to exclude many mafioso.

You realize you're following Brickroad's plan RIGHT NOW, right? I mean, to a T. you're accusing a player who you feel was ineffective in a previous game due to that reason. That's EXACTLY what he's saying.

... and people were up in arms with the stuff I posted last game...

Destil
04-09-2010, 08:24 PM
As my analytical systems have just completed a deep scan of this thread, this will be a large post. I had to get that last post in right away because "What the fucking hell, Nodal?". Sorry this is out of order.

As for lynching in the Scanner: For those who think it's a bad idea since we "only" get their role: Why would a citizen pretend to be the Scanner? I can see one use for a citizen claiming to be the Scanner, who's not actually the scanner, but it's a risky ploy, and one I think is ultimately not worth it (though, if it worked, one could form a bloc of some sort).

I'll hold off on accusing anyone, but anyone who says that a citizen might be lying about being the Scanner, without offering any reasoning, is on my list.

So... that use reason being?

Byron - as I said, Eddie already suggested there were lower numbers of Rgoues in this game, with no way to actually back that up. It may have just been a stupid comment, or it may have been planted to make people more complacent. He's certainly not innocent.Now this is an interesting catch. Only the rogues know their numbers this game... it's pretty dangerous to speculate about them. Of course, since we don't know until late in the game or after the game if Eddie is selling the numbers short, it's a bit of a dead end.

Much like discussion of what to do when the scanner comes forward, this is not a productive thread.

Tock: I know this ain't M2:W. But I do believe that if the purpose of the Rogues is to win, in the same way we would have won last game, then it is absolutely in their best interests to see citizens lynched, and to do so with all haste. There is no reason for a Standard Process to rush to verdict; we have three days. Even if they don't think like me, they're acting extra-suspicious for Standard Processes.I'm having a hard time parsing this, Byron... you're claiming that standards shouldn't be in a rush, rogues would be? Look at day 4 of East. We tried that logic and it got one mafia and three citizens killed. Some of our most bloodthirsty players, historically, were citizens.

Anyway, the mafia can pretty easily defeat the suspicion list by just posting the five players everyone else has been accusing. It's no skin off their nose if they finger a mafia player that everyone else is about to lynch anyway, and it gives them cover to boot.Read the west speakeasy. The mafia congratulate each other for their lists, including the fact that they each listed at least one other mafia... (or was it exactly one other?)

Now if I though the lists were a good idea I'd have kept that point to myself, called for the lists, done the dwolfe spreadsheet thing and tried to do some fancy matrix math assuming a similar distribution. However I think suspect lists are a terrible idea, rogues will most likely be coming at this game from totally different angels. The top suspects were just vocal, controlling players, and I doubt there's many rogues like that (but I'd guess more than 0).

I keep forgetting to say this, but it needs to be said: I'm very disappointed that we didn't start at day 0.

You're kind of missing the point. My original idea was that, assuming Brickroad wasn't Rogue to start with, there was originally a very good chance that he'd be recruited the first night (since the Rogues would have concluded by then that they probably couldn't nail the Scanner with any reliability, so why not get someone persuasive instead), so come Day 2, we could lynch him and have a pretty good chance of getting a Rogue. Significantly better than average, anyway. But now that the idea has been floated *shakes fist*, any possibility of getting those good odds has been completely rm'd..

Brickroad's reputation is a much stronger force than Brickroad the player. Brick's been proven to be actually somewhat easy to manipulate as his style is very forward, both Paul and Tock do it in east, and they kept him alive because they felt he would be an asset to manipulate people.

The only reason I see for Brick being the night two virus target is the same logic Tock used to try and find the inspector last game. Assume he's been inspected and therefore they're hitting the block before it starts. The virus would be a much stronger late-game play, used against someone who has actually earned significant trust from the community, most likely just as a small nudge to help them win the game.

Err, guys? I'm typing this on an iPhone on a hotel bed right now. Please forgive me. I will try to catch up, but it is unlikely. I will be back in full force Monday, and I swear, this will be the last time I am missing the beginning of the game.You know what, I'm going to abide by this. I respected Eddie's "don't be a dick" argument last game. We can always lynch you day two, but after day 1 in East I'm giving Umby a buy on the inactivity front.

[That said I'll be on him hard if he's not here day 2]

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:29 PM
Also the reason for killing the inspector immediately after they speak out is this.

1. If we kill them then we get to see if they are a citizen. This is huge.
2. Pretty much all information after the first is easily tainted, due to the don being able to swap loyalties.

The reasons I can see to not kill him immediately.

1. It might be a citizen attempting to fool the mafia into killing them? This is easily solved by not doing it.
2. It's easily verifiable whether or not they are giving bad advice (kill the person they out after the initial one). However, this leads to "how long were they giving bad advice after the initial, and if we kill them now and they're mafia, does this mean they were always mafia and the first advice is bad too?"

That's why I believe they must be killed immediately, because that first advice they give is the only guaranteed true information in the game, besides the role information after death.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:30 PM
You realize you're following Brickroad's plan RIGHT NOW, right? I mean, to a T. you're accusing a player who you feel was ineffective in a previous game due to that reason. That's EXACTLY what he's saying.

... and people were up in arms with the stuff I posted last game...

The reason it's not the same is because I stated one person for clearly defined reasons, instead of a huge list of people for reasons such as "It's their first game".

Eddie
04-09-2010, 08:31 PM
Back from work, here's the quick responses to some of the stuff I've been asked:

Why did you jump on Gamon?

I'll be 100% honest here: I was actually going to accuse Guesty, for all the reasons that I'm accusing Gamon: for thinking that we shouldn't auto-lynch the inspector.

...IN FACT I plan on making a list of everyone who isn't down with auto-lynching the inspector, and I'm going to try and hang the lot of you.

THE WHOLE LOT OF YOU.

...But back to the point...

I jumped on him for two reasons:

1) I had Nich's support, and hey, friends are good. I would rather accuse Gamon than risk splitting the vote by accusing Guesty.

2) We've only got 72 hours to make decisions, so I'd rather accuse during the first 24 and spend the next 48 negotiating who dies.

You think there's a lower percentage of mafia this game? That's really suspicious! What gives!?

The original "Mafia" game outlined here (http://www.eblong.com/zarf/werewolf.html) has the standard rules being only two "Werewolves" than one Inspector type and the rest citizens. If you rad under the "Possible Variations" part of the document, you'll note they suggest adding a 3rd Werewolf once you hit around 17 players.

Now, that raises the question: "Wait, we played with around 17 players, yet we faced 6 mafia. What gives?"

The answer for "what gives" is the power roles. The more you add to the game (i.e. Oracle, Angels, Vigilante), the more you need to compensate the mafia. Without adding special roles like 'the Don' (like we have this game), the only choice is to add more mafioso to the game to even the odds.

At least, that's my logic on the whole thing. You can find it suspicious, I guess. I won't hold it against you.

Not wanting to auto-lynch the Inspector? THAT I'm still holding against you (with a noose. A virtual one).

Okay, well what about the 'well we might as well lynch someone...' comment?

Guilty. It was stupid of me to write that, and I regretted it as soon as I realized I had kept it in. I throw myself at the mercy of the court.

But it still doesn't change my desire to lynch Gamon. And Guesty.

- Eddie

Mr. J
04-09-2010, 08:32 PM
I can see where nodal is coming from, I don't agree with him but I see his logic. We dealt with this last time in the East thread. This is what the argument boils down to:

"There are certain people who are "good" and if they are X we lose/win anyways; so, let's assume they are Y."

It is not a good argument because guess what?! You can put anything you want in X or Y. Last game people said that brick is so "good" if he is mafia we lost so let's assume he's citizen (we didn't for the record). Now, it's Brick is so good that if he's mafia we've auto-lost so let's assume he's mafia.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 08:33 PM
Clearly, if we're going to blame anyone for this Rogue process mess, we should go back to old standbys. Therefore, I blame Calorie Mate.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 08:34 PM
In all seriousness though, Nodal's logic is pretty messed up - playing ability by itself isn't nearly enough to convict a man, especially this early on when we haven't gotten a feel for how everyone else is playing yet. I mean, I'm all for putting prominent players to the grill in the hopes of them letting something slip - hell, we're at three games now and I don't think there hasn't been a round where I didn't call for Brick's head - but at the same time we have to be more methodical about how we approach it, in order to wrest as much information as we can from the situation. If anything, having an aggressive, "in your face" player like Brick helps us by really taking the fight to them, and making it personal enough for players to lose their cool will help us nail the rogue players when they slip up.

One thing I will say about Nodal, however, is that he's right in at least one respect: We should be keeping a very, very close eye on what have been the strongest players in the game so far. Aside from the obvious "we can't have the Rogues taking control of the game", without any overt powers to help us this time around, our best bet in crippling the Mafia is in taking out the key players on their side and removing someone like, say, Merus, dtsund or Eddie from their ranks will be a huge advantage in our favour. Taking out a leading figure would help destabilize any discussion they had going on their side and force them into disarray the same way losing a player we've rallied around on our side would be to us - Cut off the head and the body will wither, and whatnot.

As for Brick being corrupted by the Virus... let's be serious guys. This is Brick we're talking about here - if he doesn't get inspected at least three times before this game is over, I'll eat my laptop. No wait, I won't be able to play if I do that. :s Anyway, I think I'm pretty secure in accusing Nodal at this point.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 08:37 PM
Also, it looks like I missed a shitton of discussion while typing that up, so I guess it's back to skimming through posts for me. Lurk away~

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 08:37 PM
Okay, I've read the thread in full now, and have a nice hot cup of tea, so let's get to some of the finer points.

Re: "I accuse Brick and Nich two days from now."

Comb actually posted exactly what I was planning to post later on today, except I was going to float "Brick and Paul" instead of "Brick and Nich". (Sorry Nich, but I've since read Mafia 2 West and I'm just not convinced you're as smart about all this as you led me to believe you were in our AIM chats.) Paul played a great civilian game followed by a great mob game, and I have this huge draconian reputation that makes people too afraid to kill me. Either or both of us would be prime targets for conversion, and anyone who doesn't see that is flying blind.

By pointing it out and putting it on the table for all to see, I was hoping to change the Virus's mind about the two of us from "perfect surefire conversion targets" to "hmm... maybe I should leave them alone for now to spread more doubt and fear". Paranoia about this is going to be high while we're still in the game, but (and I realize I cannot definitively speak for Paul on this) we can help you win as long as we're on your side.

You'd be stupid to trust us, but you'd also be stupid to cut us loose out of pure fear.

Which brings me to Nodal's "let's kill the best players!" strategy. Has it occurred to you that killing the best players will leave... poor players? Can you win the game with just poor players? Are you kidding me?

This is the exact opposite of my stance in Mafia 2 East, where I put a couple names on the table who were "people we should leave alive, because they are huge assets to us if they are citizens." Well, neither of those people were citizens, but I still stand by the core idea. Eliminating good, active players because they are good and active is... I don't even know. Lunacy? Where's a thesaurus?

Re: my game.

One major change you guys will see in my game this time around is an increase in aggressiveness. Mafia 1 and 2 rewarded passive play, by which I mean there was really no reason to act on unverified information. That's where my "I won't accuse anyone who hasn't been fingered by a known citizen" strategy came from, which was the foundation of the voting bloc. Well, no known citizens this time. No voting bloc.

So you'll see more finger-pointing from me. I started with fanboymaster, and I observe he hasn't really responded to my calling him out. So here it is again: fanbaoymaster, of our list of players, you are statistically the most useless and therefore the least likely to help the citizens win. What say you? What's your plan to do better by us this time around? Actually, screw this ball-tickling: I accuse fanboymaster. There. Now you can't ignore me.

Here's two more people I'm keeping a really close eye on, who I don't think I've seen mentioned yet:

1) Mr. J. This guy struck me as 100% useless all through Mafia 2 East, and annoyed me with a hundred little pokes about absolutely nothing. In reality, though, he was playing a very reserved, very subtle Inspector game. He's at least 300% smarter than I gave him credit for. If he played Inspector that far under the radar, there's no doubt in my mind he could play Rogue the same way.

2) McDohl... for much the same reasons. I spent as much time or more talking to him about Mafia 2 West as I did Nich, and never once had any inkling he was Mafia until he told me until the very end of the game. Upon reading the West thread, I noticed Nich was gunning to kill him, but then not only did McD convince him not to, but he convinced him he was trustworthy enough he didn't need to be inspected. Now, granted, this might have just been one of Nich's blind spots. Lord knows I had mine in Mafia 1. But McD made it to the endgame as a villain once, which means he knows how to do it again under better conditions.

Rules clarification needed:

The rules in the OP state very clearly no day can pass without a lynch, then the next paragraph outlines a situation where we can finish a day without a lynch.

Umby
04-09-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm still on the iPhone, but it does not take long to read one page. Nodal, your idea was just plain dumb, and even if you aren't mafia if you are going to make stupid suggestions like lynching Brickroad "just 'cause", you should be taken out. Plus, you weren't responding longer than I did. I accuse Nodal. Yeah, I just typed this all on an iPhone.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 08:38 PM
@Eddie: Who are you responding to? And who's Gamon?

I think he means Ganon:

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj201/OctopusPrime/2nd%20Quest/ZELDA20000.png

He's totally a Rogue process. I mean, the laugh pretty much gives it all away!

Eddie
04-09-2010, 08:38 PM
Er, yeah I meant Byron. The guy I accused.

I'm responding to multiple people. I just got home from work and figured replying in one post was the easiest way.

- Eddie

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:39 PM
Anyway, I think I'm pretty secure in accusing Nodal at this point.

By the way, if anyone's wondering why all I've tried to do is clarify my argument instead of defending myself against my multiple actual accusations, well it's because of my argument itself. It's day 0, we don't have that much info to go on. I know I'm not Mafia, but you gentlemen don't, and if you feel that I'm the slightly better choice for who to nix right off the bat, then at least you'll get some info that way. My whole point is that on the first day we have no concrete info to go on, so might as well kill the slightly more suspicious fellow.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:41 PM
Which brings me to Nodal's "let's kill the best players!" strategy. Has it occurred to you that killing the best players will leave... poor players? Can you win the game with just poor players? Are you kidding me?

Aaaah! The reason that you're trusted is only one of my reasons! Not the only one! And this strategy in general is only for the first day! the first day

Kylie
04-09-2010, 08:45 PM
I must look like somebody Eddie knows, I guess. It must be this Tri-force thing I have, here.

Which is interesting, because he thinks that whomever he is accusing, the gentle soul that must look like an acquaintance of his, thinks the Scanner should NOT be auto-lynched. This clearly isn't me; I'm down for testing our scanner as soon as he steps out of the shadows.

But he's accusing me. I don't think he knows why he is accusing me, other than Nich Said So. But he's trying real hard to find reasons, I guess.

I don't think they're very good.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 08:48 PM
I must look like somebody Eddie knows, I guess. It must be this Tri-force thing I have, here.

Which is interesting, because he thinks that whomever he is accusing, the gentle soul that must look like an acquaintance of his, thinks the Scanner should NOT be auto-lynched. This clearly isn't me; I'm down for testing our scanner as soon as he steps out of the shadows.

But he's accusing me. I don't think he knows why he is accusing me, other than Nich Said So. But he's trying real hard to find reasons, I guess.

I don't think they're very good.

Yeah I'm playing pretty poorly.

Re-reading your comments it appears that Nich's issue was that you wanted to systematically delete the people named as 'innocent' by the scanner, right? Not the whole 'insta-kill the scanner' thing...

Well, it's my bed that I've made. I still like Nich's reason for killing you tho. I harbour no hard feelings for wanting to lynch me, I think I kind of deserve it now!

= Eddie

Guesty
04-09-2010, 08:49 PM
I didn't think the inspector thing through, admittedly. I thought that lynching him would mean ending his use, which is correct, but now that I realize that this means that Mafia can't pretend to be inspector and he can't be turned, it seems like the right thing to do.

For some reason, when I was posting that, I was thinking that the inspector would claim too soon. But with a sizable enough repositry of known rogues, the lynching the inspector plan seems legit now.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 08:50 PM
Also, as for lynching the Scanner: We've got not only a player that can convert him to the enemy's side, but at the same time we don't have any means of protecting him at night anymore. In the event that he comes forward with information on a few key players, not only do we have to confirm that he's the real deal, but also that he's on our side.

As unfortunate as it is, the only way we can do so is by killing him in broad daylight and leaving him to go overnight is just... well, it's too risky.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:51 PM
I didn't think the inspector thing through, admittedly. I thought that lynching him would mean ending his use, which is correct, but now that I realize that this means that Mafia can't pretend to be inspector and he can't be turned, it seems like the right thing to do.

For some reason, when I was posting that, I was thinking that the inspector would claim too soon. But with a sizable enough repositry of known rogues, the lynching the inspector plan seems legit now.

Yeah, it's pretty much the only way to get reliable information out of an inspector.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 08:51 PM
I addressed that all in my post right below the OP.

Yeah but your post right below the OP isn't the one I reference when I need to look up a rule. We need the actual rules post updated with the actual rules.

Not for nothing, but "here's my ruleset but I'm not running it and oh by the way make sure it's a little fudgey so we can distract people from the game with constant rules clarifications" is exactly the brilliant metagamey trick I would pull if this were my game.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 08:52 PM
That said, if we manage to kill off the Virus right away... ehh. Even still, it's too big of a risk, but at least at that point our Scanner could risk one or two nights more than before.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 08:52 PM
Not for nothing, but "here's my ruleset but I'm not running it and oh by the way make sure it's a little fudgey so we can distract people from the game with constant rules clarifications" is exactly the brilliant metagamey trick I would pull if this were my game.

Brickroad, this is why we can't have nice things.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 08:52 PM
I am not for a lynching of all confirmed innocents - I only pointed out that it's one way to go about it. If our Scanner comes forward with a single innocent name, and he's a Standard, that innocent is going to be a good target for conversion in late-game. If he comes forward with five names -- that's a very different kettle.

I still find Nodal suspicious. If he's a Rogue, though... he's pretty bad at it.

Guesty
04-09-2010, 08:53 PM
And just in case someone gets on my case for changing my mind:
I didn't think it through when I suggested it. I was under the impression that kililng him would be a waste, and I was thinking more like the first game where innocent ones would be the bloc which is obviously not the case. But using their guilty verdicts to guide us is the way to go.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 08:55 PM
Brickroad, this is why we can't have nice things.

Mafia's not a nice game. I said it in Mafia 2 East and I'll say it here again: if you want to be buddies, meet me in Talking About Games and let's chat about Metroid. I'm not in this thread for the warm fuzzies, I'm here to delete some bitches.

Preferably Rogue bitches.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 08:57 PM
I don't think there's much we can do about the 'Don/Virus'; the only way we can really get messed up by it is if the Scanner posts a list and we decide to trust everyone on that list. This of course, only happens if both the Scanner and Virus survive long enough into the game.

If this DOES happen (i.e. we lynch the 'scanner' and he comes up innocent) I think the correct move is to set the 'innocent' block aside and only worry about the remainder. If all the players OUTSIDE the block are killed, then those survivors know the Virus infected one of them.

Keeping in mind that the Mafia have a good reason to kill off those 'proven' innocent players, it may not even make a difference. The point is that as long as we don't play into the Don's hands, then our basic gameplay doesn't change in the least. We just modify it with an Inspector reveal.

- Eddie

spineshark
04-09-2010, 08:59 PM
Or I could have just fixed it but was going to count up the votes before posting this.
Suspected Processes (17 majority):
Nodal (3 votes):
dtsund
PapillonReel
Umby

Eddie (2 votes):
Byron
Merus

Byron (1 vote):
Eddie

Nich (1 vote):
McDohl

Brickroad (1 vote):
Tock

Loki (1 vote):
Bongo Bill

PapillonReel (1 vote):
namelessentity

EXASPERATED SARCASM:

Yes Nodal, we should kill the player that has proved useful in the past on the off chance he's mafia.

EXPLANATORY STATEMENT:

I understand the whole "We can't be too reliant on someone because we trusted them before" idea. However, your argument to lynch Brick is so poorly thought out it makes you seem like you're either a rogue, or someone whose inability to reason properly makes them a liability. I'm half convinced I should vote for your lynching already, but I figure I need a second look at the rest of the day's posts.
elcor mafia

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:00 PM
I don't think there's much we can do about the 'Don/Virus'; the only way we can really get messed up by it is if the Scanner posts a list and we decide to trust everyone on that list. This of course, only happens if both the Scanner and Virus survive long enough into the game.

If this DOES happen (i.e. we lynch the 'scanner' and he comes up innocent) I think the correct move is to set the 'innocent' block aside and only worry about the remainder. If all the players OUTSIDE the block are killed, then those survivors know the Virus infected one of them.

Keeping in mind that the Mafia have a good reason to kill off those 'proven' innocent players, it may not even make a difference. The point is that as long as we don't play into the Don's hands, then our basic gameplay doesn't change in the least. We just modify it with an Inspector reveal.

- Eddie

Absolutely untrue. If we as Standards allow one player to lead us, or to guide us consistently in some fashion (e.g. "If Brick is Rogue, we're all dead anyway, so we might as well trust him") then that's a bonanza for the Virus, especially late game -- it can be a real game-changer. The Virus does NOT need a scanner present in order to use that power to great effect.

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 09:01 PM
This idea is crazy enough it just might get us all killed! I like that in a plan.

As such, I accuse Brickroad for being an uppity fellow.

In all seriousness though, Nodal's logic is pretty messed up - playing ability by itself isn't nearly enough to convict a man, especially this early on when we haven't gotten a feel for how everyone else is playing yet.

Anyway, I think I'm pretty secure in accusing Nodal at this point.

I have to say, I'm prejudice against Pappy. In the other games he seemed to be a little less than helpful and last game when he had a taste of power he seemed to go quite mad.

But here, it looks like he is looking for a reason to kill Brick and then when he sees it won't fly retracts it.
I accuse PapillonReel

Nodal
04-09-2010, 09:01 PM
I don't think there's much we can do about the 'Don/Virus'; the only way we can really get messed up by it is if the Scanner posts a list and we decide to trust everyone on that list. This of course, only happens if both the Scanner and Virus survive long enough into the game.

If this DOES happen (i.e. we lynch the 'scanner' and he comes up innocent) I think the correct move is to set the 'innocent' block aside and only worry about the remainder. If all the players OUTSIDE the block are killed, then those survivors know the Virus infected one of them.

Keeping in mind that the Mafia have a good reason to kill off those 'proven' innocent players, it may not even make a difference. The point is that as long as we don't play into the Don's hands, then our basic gameplay doesn't change in the least. We just modify it with an Inspector reveal.

- Eddie

I agree with all of this.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 09:02 PM
But here, it looks like he is looking for a reason to kill Brick and then when he sees it won't fly retracts it.

Man, whaaat. I'm just fucking around, is all. We cool, we cool.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:03 PM
If this DOES happen (i.e. we lynch the 'scanner' and he comes up innocent) I think the correct move is to set the 'innocent' block aside and only worry about the remainder. If all the players OUTSIDE the block are killed, then those survivors know the Virus infected one of them.

I see wisdom here. We actually played it somewhat similar in East, after Sprite split the players in half by using a particularly divisive vote, and it got us places.

Sometimes what you know you don't know can be just as important as what you don't know you don't know. If that makes sense. (Known unknowns vs. unknown unknowns.)

Anyway, I follow you Eddie. You and me dawg. Let's do this shit. Day three or bust.

Destil
04-09-2010, 09:03 PM
This is in response to Brick and Eddie claiming that the only correct move is to delete the scanner the instant they're in the open ourselves, and to go so far as claiming anyone who disagrees on this point is likely rogueThere's something in game design called 'tempo'. If we make a move the opponent wants to make for them, we're loosing it. If we force the opponents to make moves that we want, we're gaining it. Depending on how the numbers play out (this is not absolute) we may very well be doing the rogues a favor killing the scanner for them. And aside from killing the virus on a lucky day one lynch, our best option for dealing with it is to force the rogues to use it on a specific process where we know that it could be the case.

We know that the scanner can be corrupted. If we're stupid enough to put on blinders and consider every bit of information out of it of the same value then we deserve to loose.

The only advantage to an instant lynch is that we know if we had the scanner on day one or a fake. But if it's a fake we get two rogues for one citizen. If the authentic scanner is infected and we delete it after it lies to us we still get two rogues for one citizen.

As far as getting 'known information' from the scanner: what? We can't trust anything from the real scanner due to the virus. Force the rogues to kill or corrupt him, make them waste their turn/resource. We're still at most loosing a single clean process to their duplicity.

The plan would be to keep the scanner alive, but we do not need to give equal weight to all the information we get from it after day one. Hell, we simply ignore all cleared processes and use it as a rogue detector only and we eventually get one more rogue kill from it (the infected/fake scanner).

Again, I'm not saying this is a 100% perfect idea, and it depends on the numbers if the situation comes up.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:07 PM
I've made my peace with Pappy wanting my head. It's his thing. It just wouldn't be Mafia without him frothing at the mouth about how I need to die.

@Destil: Auto-lynching the Scanner, to me, is less about confirming his information than about sending a very clear message to Rogues: if you front as the Scanner, you will die immediately and gain absolutely fucking nothing.

If we all agree, right here, Day One, that the Scanner will be auto-lynched when he comes out it guarantees our only Scanner reveal will be the actual, real-life, flesh-and-blood-and-circuitry-or-whatever Scanner.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:07 PM
Absolutely untrue. If we as Standards allow one player to lead us, or to guide us consistently in some fashion (e.g. "If Brick is Rogue, we're all dead anyway, so we might as well trust him") then that's a bonanza for the Virus, especially late game -- it can be a real game-changer. The Virus does NOT need a scanner present in order to use that power to great effect.

There's no 'mafia' tell; it's completely possible for any guilty player to lead us by the nose. In fact, the optimal strategy for ANY corrupted data (or whatever they call mafia in this game) is to gain the trust of everyone yadda yadda. Whether they're guilty the entire time or were originally innocent doesn't matter.

I'm not saying the Virus power can't be powerful or anything, I'm just saying that it's impossible as innocents to work around it. We can only merely try and minimize it's impact, and that can only happen after a Scanner reveal.

Yeah I was thinking of apologizing to you but forget it. I'm auto-lynching you every day. Guesty is still #2 (sorry dude, no mercy for flip-floppers in this application).

- Eddie

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 09:11 PM
I've made my peace with Pappy wanting my head. It's his thing. It just wouldn't be Mafia without him frothing at the mouth about how I need to die.

You do, though! Just not yet. ;)

Anyway, at this point I've gotten used to the fact that I'm a total derpwad when it comes to picking up on suspicion, so I'm gonna take it easy this time around. Y'know, joke around a bit, stir the pot, maybe post some opinions on whatever whenever the mood strikes me (like it did with Nodal).

But don't kill me, though. I'm totally not a Rogue.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:11 PM
Every day? Harsh. Lynch me once, shame on you. I don't need any kind of apology, my feelings aren't hurt. I just think you're playing either a disingenuous game, or a sloppy one. Especially given your relative quality last game, it strikes me as unusual and out of character for you.

Destil
04-09-2010, 09:12 PM
@Destil: Auto-lynching the Scanner, to me, is less about confirming his information than about sending a very clear message to Rogues: if you front as the Scanner, you will die immediately and gain absolutely fucking nothing.

We get a rogue kill regardless out of the scanner if we only use it to detect guilt and forget that it can also see innocence (whenever he/she/it gives us a citizen). Again, I say to you: let the rogues do it themselves. Saves us a turn and costs them a turn (or their only virus). Who cares if they front a fake scanner if they have real rogue names? We ctrl+alt+delete every one of those motherfuckers and as soon as we've been played we still get an extra rogue kill out of it.

You're saying put them in a situation where they can gain nothing. I'm saying put them in a situation where they can attempt to gain nothing, still gain nothing and end up giving us kills.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Also, to Spineshark - I believe Nich retracted his accusation of me.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:13 PM
You're saying put them in a situation where they can gain nothing. I'm saying put them in a situation where they can attempt to gain nothing, still gain nothing and end up giving us kills.

I have no idea what this means.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Every day? Harsh. Lynch me once, shame on you. I don't need any kind of apology, my feelings aren't hurt. I just think you're playing either a disingenuous game, or a sloppy one. Especially given your relative quality last game, it strikes me as unusual and out of character for you.

I... I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not. :s

Umby
04-09-2010, 09:13 PM
I'm still on the iPhone, but it does not take long to read one page. Nodal, your idea was just plain dumb, and even if you aren't mafia if you are going to make stupid suggestions like lynching Brickroad "just 'cause", you should be taken out. Plus, you weren't responding longer than I did. I accuse Nodal. Yeah, I just typed this all on an iPhone.

Spineshark... I'm. Person too.

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 09:14 PM
Er, how does that jibe with the very posts you quoted? You have Pappy "seeing it won't fly" when someone else finally seconds his accusation of Brickroad.

I think I didn't give an adequit timeline (I didn't want to get too quote heavy)

After Nodal accuses Brick, Pappy accuses Brick. After people say "Nodal, you stupid" Pappy goes "Yeah, Nodal IS stupid"

And then Pappy says he's just playin', and I'm willing to believe that, but it was still suspicious to me.

Umby
04-09-2010, 09:15 PM
Gag stupid iPhone.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:15 PM
Every day? Harsh. Lynch me once, shame on you. I don't need any kind of apology, my feelings aren't hurt. I just think you're playing either a disingenuous game, or a sloppy one. Especially given your relative quality last game, it strikes me as unusual and out of character for you.

Honestly, I'm mostly sticking to my guns. I'm playing a sloppy game, and deserve any suspicion it casts on me. At the same time, I ain't no flip-flopper. I don't think I would do myself any favours by retracting my accusation, so this is the ballgame I'm going to play.

You should auto-accuse me too. See who is lynched first. It'll be a game.

- Eddie

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:16 PM
I... I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not. :s

No he was talking about me Papps.

- Eddie

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:16 PM
There's no 'mafia' tell; it's completely possible for any guilty player to lead us by the nose. In fact, the optimal strategy for ANY corrupted data (or whatever they call mafia in this game) is to gain the trust of everyone yadda yadda. Whether they're guilty the entire time or were originally innocent doesn't matter.

I'm not saying the Virus power can't be powerful or anything, I'm just saying that it's impossible as innocents to work around it. We can only merely try and minimize it's impact, and that can only happen after a Scanner reveal.

Yeah I was thinking of apologizing to you but forget it. I'm auto-lynching you every day. Guesty is still #2 (sorry dude, no mercy for flip-floppers in this application).

- Eddie

Being civil this time: A Scanner reveal may not have anything to do with the Virus. I did not mean to suggest that Brick might be Rogue this whole time (OMG though he totally might be) but that civvie leaders are as good a target, maybe better -- and that our attempts to game the Virus, should we make any, ought not rely on whether or not Cap'n McAfee's come forward. Associating the Virus with the Scanner is a mistake.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:19 PM
Honestly, I'm mostly sticking to my guns. I'm playing a sloppy game, and deserve any suspicion it casts on me. At the same time, I ain't no flip-flopper. I don't think I would do myself any favours by retracting my accusation, so this is the ballgame I'm going to play.

You should auto-accuse me too. See who is lynched first. It'll be a game.

- Eddie

Yeah right it'll be like a western with us staring at each other in the town square, guns ready, while everybody else dies around us.

And if we're both Standards, that's a stupid game. It's not really the kind of game Standards win. I know I'M a Standard. What are you, Eddie?

Destil
04-09-2010, 09:21 PM
I have no idea what this means.
Yeah, I'm being obtuse again. Sorry. Here goes:

A) A fake scanner must give up one of his own. I'll support any scanner who gives us only clean files 100%. This is in the case that we get one with names.

B) Forget the innocent names. Much like Eddie's plan.

C) Kill every corrupt name. Every last one.

:if (scanner = real scanner)
We loose nothing, we never kill a clean process. We can continue to rely on the scans.

:elseif (scanner = rogue process)
We loose nothing, we never kill a clean process without killing the fake scanner in return. A 1 for 1 trade is in our favor.

:elseif (scanner = real scanner.corrupted())
We loose nothing, we never kill a clean process without killing the corrupted scanner in return. We also use up their only infection.

:elseif (scanner = real scanner.killedByRogues())
We loose nothing. The rogues loose one night kill compared to where we are in the case that we kill the scanner ourselves.

:endif

We only loose out here if we loose due to the game ending when we kill a clean process when the rogues have a 1 person lead. But in that case we'd most likely loose anyway, and since we don't know how many there are it's something I'm not concerned with, as we can't plan for it.

Mr. J
04-09-2010, 09:21 PM
Looks like it's gonna be a long cycle for this one. Vote required to lynch, 17. Highest vote tally 3...

In other news, what does everyone else think on this stuff. There are quite a few of you sitting this out and I'm curious where you all lie (punny).

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:22 PM
So what's your plan when the rogues front a fake inspector, secure in the knowledge they can give us "innocents" every day, knowing the town has no plans to kill them? I haven't agreed with Brick about much in this game so far (I'd really love to know why he appears to be best buds already with Eddie, when he knows damn well you can't trust anyone in this situation) but on this I have to admit, he's correct.

The plan, far as I can tell, is for the Scanner not to reveal innocents -- just Rogues. That way, an infection can be detected when he gives us an incorrect verdict. No fake-bloc-building; if he wants to keep playing fake, he either has to give us mafia or nothing. What do we lose? Not really a lot.

I'm starting to warm to this. I can still be convinced it'd go wrong.

Destil
04-09-2010, 09:24 PM
So what's your plan when the rogues front a fake inspector, secure in the knowledge they can give us "innocents" every day, knowing the town has no plans to kill them? I haven't agreed with Brick about much in this game so far (I'd really love to know why he appears to be best buds already with Eddie, when he knows damn well you can't trust anyone in this situation) but on this I have to admit, he's correct.

No, my plan calls for complete disregard for any 'clean' result from any scanner. No block, not trusted. Unless we prove the virus infected someone specifically (which I don't believe we can).

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:24 PM
I'm not "best buds" with anyone, Nich, but part of this game is... well, not trust. But something close to it.

Eddie and I were arm in arm all last game, up until his death. I backed up his good ideas and he backed up mine, and I think we both did our parts in helping the citizens win. (I had a similar relationship with Merus in Game 1, but of course I had the advantage over him there since I was the Inspector.)

The reason the mob keeps taking Eddie down early in the game is because he mixes his good ideas in with his nonchalant "maybe I'm fibbing" style. Two games in a row now he's put the mob on their guard. He must be doing something right, and odds are better than not of him being a Standard.

Let's not trust him, but let's not be so dismissive of him, either. And for the love of god let's let the poor man see Day Three.

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 09:24 PM
If the Scanner comes out, we should nuke him from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:25 PM
Yeah, I'm being obtuse again. Sorry. Here goes:

Yeah, that is some complicated bullshit plan. Mine is way better.

Thanks for the hat, twerp.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:25 PM
And for the love of god let's let the poor man see Day Three.

Sympathizer.

Garrison
04-09-2010, 09:27 PM
Looks like it's gonna be a long cycle for this one. Vote required to lynch, 17. Highest vote tally 3...

In other news, what does everyone else think on this stuff. There are quite a few of you sitting this out and I'm curious where you all lie (punny).

I'll take this as an invitation to babble on. The people currently on my radar are Byron, Eddie, and Nodal. Byron has been rather jumpy all day, although that could just be him being jumpy. Eddie's play style this game is pretty much the polar opposite of what it was last game and I can't figure out for the life of me why, especially in a game so similar to the one he desired. Nodal is... well, not the greatest strategist. I mean, I'm no strategist myself, but damn.

I'm not voting to lynch anyone until at least tomorrow IRL, so right now I'm just sort of observing. Make of that what you will.

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 09:28 PM
I see where destil is coming from (and I saw it the first time he said it)

The plan is nice, but you have to look at our ability to find rogues in the past. We have a poor batting average and that was even with power roles constantly revealing themselves and narrowing the pool. But on the other hand, if the scanner comes out with 5 innocents and 2 rogues, we can build a pseudo bloc around those five and in the end game those five can decide which of them is most likely converted.

I like risky plans, destil, but Brick is going to tell you that it's not optimal. The safe bet is to insta-kill and get the only real information you can get in this game.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 09:28 PM
No, my plan calls for complete disregard for any 'clean' result from any scanner. No block, not trusted. Unless we prove the virus infected someone specifically (which I don't believe we can).

The only way to prove this 100% is for the inspector to ping someone twice, see them change from vanilla to chocolate, and then we kill him proving his info valid first turn. Anything else is just probability.

Destil
04-09-2010, 09:28 PM
Yeah, that is some complicated bullshit plan. Mine is way better.

Thanks for the hat, twerp.

No, it's a simple two part plan: point and click. Scanner sets 'em up and we knock 'em down.

The proof that it's to our advantage is slightly complex, sure. But the plan is dirt simple.

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:31 PM
To clarify my point here: namelessberetman has hit on it exactly. We need innocent reads from the Scanner not to build a bloc, but to narrow the suspect pool down.

Someone upthread observed that the Virus gets one shot. One. If the Scanner comes out and gives us four names (one Rogue, three Standards)... well, the worst they can do is flip one of those Standards. We lynch the Scanner since his identity is now compromised, then lynch the one Rogue he gave us, then set the three Standards aside until the end game. Yes, one of those three Standards will likely be corrupt by then, but it's not a problem we have to worry about right away, and it's not one that can worsen with time.

As long as we don't give those three Standards the borderline-sainthood status we've given bloc members in the past, we'll be fine. We deal with our uknown unknowns first, and the known unknowns after.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 09:32 PM
Nodal is... well, not the greatest strategist. I mean, I'm no strategist myself, but damn.

I end (real) day 1 of Mafia by taking Australia. And going to bed. I promise to read everyone's various reasons as to why I'm baseball's Michael Jordan tomorrow.

namelessentity
04-09-2010, 09:32 PM
I'm a little upset Eddie hasn't claimed Batman in this little adventure.

(What's the computer equivalent of Batman? Byteman?)

PapillonReel
04-09-2010, 09:33 PM
Bat-Byte?

Mr. J
04-09-2010, 09:34 PM
I'll take this as an invitation to babble on. The people currently on my radar are Byron, Eddie, and Nodal. Byron has been rather jumpy all day, although that could just be him being jumpy. Eddie's play style this game is pretty much the polar opposite of what it was last game and I can't figure out for the life of me why, especially in a game so similar to the one he desired. Nodal is... well, not the greatest strategist. I mean, I'm no strategist myself, but damn.

I'm not voting to lynch anyone until at least tomorrow IRL, so right now I'm just sort of observing. Make of that what you will.

Babble away my friend. I think that byron is jumpy because he's been attacked by several people on the first day. Day 1 is always like this, but I am kind of surprised by the amount of hostility today. I think the new rules are contributing quite a bit and also the fact that we can no longer ride the inspector/oracle/angel/vigilante train. This is going to be a long, painful game of call the bluff.

Eddie, I don't like what he's done so far, but I'm willing to give the guy a chance to redeem himself before we ship him off to the recycling bin.

Nodal
04-09-2010, 09:34 PM
Bytemobile.

Kylie
04-09-2010, 09:35 PM
Honestly, either Plan Brick or Plan Destil will probably work, and I don't think it'll matter which we pick for a couple days yet. Can we argue about it then?

Destil
04-09-2010, 09:35 PM
I like risky plans, destil, but Brick is going to tell you that it's not optimal. The safe bet is to insta-kill and get the only real information you can get in this game.Here's another point. We have no optimal plans. We can not ever know anyone is innocent. My plan at the very least always proves someone guilty (something that can't be changed) and has the best chances to find future guilty parties.

We'd need to use our judgment about anyone cleared by the scanner. But that's a wash, we're at the exact same point there we are right now without a scanner. It's a non-issue, because we're never any worse off if we are right now.

That said, fuck my plan. This is mid game strategy, I only bring it up because I see people saying we have to kill the guy 100% and using that a way to aim lynches. What I care about right now is simple. Who's lynchable? Who's not? Who do we get further information from if we do lynch them, what webs have been strung between players? I'd rater delete a process with a paper trail that points me at some possible rogues than a 'random' or 'bad' player.

You know, Killing bitches.
Preferably rogue bitches.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:37 PM
Being civil this time: A Scanner reveal may not have anything to do with the Virus. I did not mean to suggest that Brick might be Rogue this whole time (OMG though he totally might be) but that civvie leaders are as good a target, maybe better -- and that our attempts to game the Virus, should we make any, ought not rely on whether or not Cap'n McAfee's come forward. Associating the Virus with the Scanner is a mistake.

I completely agree that the Virus can't (or won't) follow the Scanner 100% of the time, but it's the only situation where we need to 'plan' around it. Otherwise, it's just corrupting another player whose innocence would otherwise be undetermined, which isn't necessarily good/bad, just something we can't game around.

The plan, far as I can tell, is for the Scanner not to reveal innocents -- just Rogues. That way, an infection can be detected when he gives us an incorrect verdict. No fake-bloc-building; if he wants to keep playing fake, he either has to give us mafia or nothing. What do we lose? Not really a lot.

I'm starting to warm to this. I can still be convinced it'd go wrong.

I think that's a bad plan. Here's the kind of scenario I envision in my head:

It's day 7, and the Inspector/Scanner reveals himself, because he feels going any further is too risky. He's got maybe 1 guilty name and three innocents (maybe two of the people he inspected was killed).

He tells us EVERY name, guilty or not.

We do the following with the information:

1) Divide those three players out of the pool of suspects. We can be reasonably sure that two of those players are 100% innocent, while the third MAY be innocent at least until the next day.

2) We pump them for information. It's not perfect, but much like 'trusting' a confirmed Angel, we know that at least two of them are going to be trustworthy until they are killed.

3) If we go through the REST of the players and there are still some remaining people left in the 'bloc,' well, there's your answer. One of them was infected. The ONLY time I would consider lynching one of them is if the rest are killed by the mafia, and only one bloc member remains. But honestly, by the point we might have lost anyway. We otherwise have to assume that the people declared innocent are just that.

We can't know if (since they were inspected) if they've been infected or not, but it doesn't matter (yet). We play the game as normal, choosing our lynches out of the remaining pool.

The worst case scenario I can think of is if it gets down to five players, with two 'bloc' and three others. In that situation I think you take the gamble and randomly lynch one of the bloc members.

At least, that's how the strategy works in my head. I admit that it's not perfect, but it's the only situation where (for a short time) we can trust some portion of the player base.

- Eddie

p.s. Of course I'm a standard, but would you expect either of us to say otherwise?

p.p.s. Garrison: I'm playing more bloodthirsty this game because this is the way Mafia should be played yo.

p.p.p.s namelessentity: man you don't come back from the dead right away. You let your comics appreciate in value some and THEN you come back. Maybe Mafia Game 4...

Brickroad
04-09-2010, 09:37 PM
You know, Killing bitches.
Preferably rogue bitches.

Fuck yeah.

Eddie
04-09-2010, 09:38 PM
My first p.s. was for Gamon/Byron. Sorry, clarity is not my strong point.

- Eddie

spineshark
04-09-2010, 09:40 PM
Looks like it's gonna be a long cycle for this one. Vote required to lynch, 17. Highest vote tally 3...
The majority is only required to end the day before 72 hours are up. A clear plurality will take it on Monday (after I get up, which will certainly not be as early as this morning).

vaterite
04-09-2010, 09:58 PM
The majority is only required to end the day before 72 hours are up. A clear plurality will take it on Monday (after I get up, which will certainly not be as early as this morning).

We have to be a little wary of this. If there are bunches of mafia, they could rather easily create a plurality, even if a majority is hard.

I think the most important idea about the scanner is that he/she/tron won't be useful until much later in the game than we're used to. Any standards revealed early will likely have too much time to dwindle before the end of the game, and since outside of trapping them into messing up we've got no other way of identifying rogue's they should have found more than a few before they think of revealing. I know this is risky, but I'm not sure we've got a choice.

Also, I'd think about accusing Byron, but honestly his play to me feels a little like mine did when I first started the second game. I was so relieved not to be mafia and have to second guess every word I posted, so I played a lot more fast and loose, and it got me killed.

fanboymaster
04-09-2010, 10:09 PM
I barely played last time before being subbed out, I should add that this was thanks to my computer breaking. I'll do this dog and pony show though.

So, you accuse me once among a huge list and expected me to respond? That's supremely irrational. I have better ways to use my daylight hours than sit around and think up ways to appease your unfounded suspicions. If we're going back to my prior contributions to game 1, I popped in and voted on a lynch (that turned up citizen if memory serves, my bad) and called a vigilante a lunatic for attacking someone without having any real evidence that who they planned to attack was mafia. Lashing out without evidence seemed a poor idea.

I'm still getting a feel for this whole mafia thing, I'd like a chance to prove myself. Something tells me requesting mercy for the new guy isn't going to do a lot of good. I don't really know what you want from me. There's nothing concrete to say. I'm not aggressive, you seem to see that as a problem, I see that as suspicious, that's all I feel like letting slip at this juncture.

I'm hoping that you'll at least give me some chance to get my bearings, seemingly likely since nobody seems to be seconding the accusation.

I'm gonna go ahead and vote for Nodal's lynching, his plan was bad, regardless of my suspicions about Brick.