Sea of Stars

[Rascally Badger]

I genuinely don't understand what you mean. The battles are all symbol encounters? You can avoid most of them.

I see how I worded that doesn't really make the point I meant to. I did not mean that in the sense of encounter rate, but more in terms of just conflict and struggle. There are very few low tension areas; the whole game feels dense with environmental puzzles and somewhat un-skippable battles.

The result is that by the time you are a quarter of the way through this 25-30 hour game, the party's quest still feels like it is just kind of beginning (I think 7 hours put me maybe near the swamp), whereas in Chrono Trigger, which I am mentioning as it seems to be this game's biggest influence, a quarter of the way through the game the player has already had adventures in 3 or 4 different time periods and things feel pretty opened up. I just feel like the game would have been well-served to just be a little less dense.

 

[YangusKhan]

That is also my biggest misgiving with the game and I even made nearly the exact same comparison with Chrono Trigger, haha.

 

[Becksworth]

I did not mean that in the sense of encounter rate, but more in terms of just conflict and struggle. There are very few low tension areas;

I feel like this is a similar issue that both Sea of Stars and fellow Chrono Trigger-like Cosmic Star Heroine both stumbled on (though to be fair I don't think Sea of Stars didn't trip over itself as much in regard): Both of the game are trying to keep combat more engaging to keep the game from becoming monotonous, not realizing constant engagement can be fatiguing.

Chrono Trigger solved this by frequently letting you just blaze through combats with one attack. Who cares if just using luminaire is cheap? You feel like a badass, your time isn't being wasted by minions, and you're doing some light resource management in the process. This also let's you get more done in the same span of time. Chrono Trigger is also dense, but in a good way.

 

[Becksworth]

Spoiler: Overall plot spoilers to discuss the pacing

As an aside, I kind of get what they were going for with story starting SLOWLY and amping up to a rapid pace at the end: Basically representing Valere and Zale starting as mortal children, then exponentially accelerating towards the singularity of their ascension to godhood. Just not sure that's the best way to convey a narrative...

 

[Purple]

It almost calls into question the entire idea of levels and a leveling curve. With the game being so linear, and the experience curve so set, there almost isn't a point to having the system there at all. Is this any different from other RPGs? I honestly don't know, I'm going to have to sit with this observation for a bit, ruminate about other games. But this isn't something I think I've ever felt with other RPGs before.

There was an interesting point in time around 2000 give or take where devs were overthinking things and trying systems where you'd have a hard cap on experience based on how far into the game you were but shifting characters in and out of your party, you'd get experience so fast it was almost inevitable that anyone in your party for like 15 minutes would be at the cap. Chrono Cross and Lost Odyssey stick out in particular as examples.

Personally I prefer experience systems as a sort of naturally self-correcting difficulty setting/scoring system. If you're struggling, have better stats to help you, but that little ranking placement after your name gets farther from 1st place but yeah if you're going to really clamp it down, or scale monsters to your level, just... save the effort, don't have levels.

 

[gorha]

I don't think XP systems in RPGs in general are pointless. Like, in Final Fantasy V for example, you can grind until you're way overleveled or run from every battle and try to beat the game at the starting level since bosses don't give XP. On the other hand, Sea of Stars has pretty severe XP scaling once you get to the level the game wants you to be at for where you are, and bosses give a lot more than random battles. You can't really get ahead of the curve by grinding, and if you arrive at a dungeon underleveled (which you could maybe do by dodging a lot of fights in the previous one? But even then the boss might catch you up), it'll only take one or two fights to get back to where you're supposed to be. So yeah, it could've done away with XP altogether and just given out levels at predetermined points in the game a la Chrono Cross. Even in Sea of Stars, I wouldn't say levels themselves are pointless, though, since they let you customize your stats.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I prefer XP and soft caps to giving out levels at predetermined points. Why have levels at all, at that point?

 

[JBear]

I prefer XP and soft caps to giving out levels at predetermined points. Why have levels at all, at that point?

TT RPGs with levelling systems do this all the time with milestone leveling and it's my preferred way to play. The point is the same as it's always been: it's fun to get more powerful over time, customizing builds, unlocking abilities, etc, etc. Gaining levels at predetermined points doesn't undermine that in any way, and make it easier to design encounter difficulty. I wish more (any?) video games would give it a try, since it works so well on the table, and it's a good way to protect players from themselves by doing away entirely with the possibility of grinding.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I guess I more mean that a game can do that without the artifact of "levels," and at a certain point of providing boosts at set intervals, a game probably should do without them as a framework. I'm not at all saying that character progression shouldn't be a thing. Zelda and Metroid do that without XP; you get new items, more health, new equipment, become more powerful, all without an XP in sight. But games presented as RPGs tend to want to hold on to the notion of experience points and levels.

 

[JBear]

RPGs also have progression systems that aren't (usually) tied to level, like gear. I mean, you're now describing a different genre. Sure, you could have an RPG where after you beat the boss you find the wave beam and get a talent point or whatever, I guess? Generally speaking, RPGs have levels. It's a convenient, meaningful shorthand. What's gained by removing them?

 

[Sarcasmorator]

I feel like we're talking past each other here but I don't really have the energy to hash it out today (stuff unrelated to this conversation). We have a difference of opinion and that can be that.

 

[Paul le Fou]

I just realized that SaGa games are a possible example of an alternate progression system: They don't really have levels. You have HP that increases now and then seemingly at random, you have base stats but they don't really change except through equipment, and you get more powerful by gaining new skills/empowering your current ones.

I just did a sidequest dungeon here in Sea of Stars (the rematch against Romaya to free the duke) and it provided extra EXP, which got me an extra level. I was doing some other sidequests and picking up some "ultimate" equipment too. Thinking about it more, it just feels like the progression system (in this case, levels and exp) is pretty tightly managed here. The stats from leveling up are a subtle enough difference that you don't really feel much more powerful after each given level-up. You also don't really have any experiences of fighting a more-powerful enemy that you can come back later at a higher level and find them noticeably easier. You do get a bit of trouncing weak enemies, IF you backtrack through certain areas (which is also rare unless you're doing it for fun or hunting for treasure or whatnot). Story and area progression are gated just as tightly as level progression (and as said above, they're tied together, in that an area will level you up to its base pretty quickly and then get you back on track).

In Sea of Stars's case, I wonder if it's not just a case of the game being as linear and guided as it is, including the way it organizes battles (non-randomly, non-respawning). I think that has a big part of it too, since the game knows exactly how many fights you can/will get into and your exp tracks directly to that, so even what level you are and when is just part of the baked-in design instead of a reflection of your choices. I think that's the crux of it, really. But again to be clear, I didn't tend to avoid any fights, so I suppose if you did so you could do a challenge run at a lower level (but not every fight is avoidable, so I don't know to what degree that would change things).

 

[spines]

I just realized that SaGa games are a possible example of an alternate progression system: They don't really have levels. You have HP that increases now and then seemingly at random, you have base stats but they don't really change except through equipment, and you get more powerful by gaining new skills/empowering your current ones.

scarlet grace does have weapon proficiency level ups, but it does have a good degree of "rubberbanding" particularly with hp increases. you can gain like 50 at once if your character's hp was low enough relative to the monsters at a given point in the game...romancing 2 and 3 use a similar system (albeit with most weapon proficiencies covering two that use similar stats and moves at once) but don't have the same degree of catchup there but try to level up characters outside your party to some extent, which is particularly important in 2 (due to the fact that your party gets disbanded periodically)

unlimited is actually the game with a system directly tying character growth to game progress, but because of various factors in the way it's designed it means often you're choosing sidegrades at best and for short and/or easy quests possibly forced to take an outright downgrade, especially if you're later in the game. hahaha

 

[Paul le Fou]

Well, I finished it up. Not actually; I didn't go do the post-credits stuff because it required hunting down every rainbow conch and that sounds just awful to me and I don't think I liked the game enough to do that, even though I did all the other sidequests. I looked up the true ending stuff on youtube and I'm a little mad that they hid that whole thing behind the postgame.

In the end I liked it well enough, but I wasn't really impressed by anything it did except the graphics and visual design, which were pretty great.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

The alternate ending/boss is actually pretty worth seeing and you should have an item that'll tell you how many conches are left on each island.

 

[Violentvixen]

I just got to Glacial Peak and am so glad one of my favourite songs from The Messenger has returned. I think this link is the night version?

Anyway here are the two from The Messenger:

 

[Violentvixen]

Spoilers are for past 20 hours into the game, I can't think of an event to cite that isn't a spoiler itself...

I liked how Garl's answer to "how can you guarantee he'll be soothed"was "bread, duh." Also sad, but that whole Swan Song sequence and the conversations leading up to it were the best in the game. It kind of feels like Garl (and some of Resh'An's) conversations were written by a second (better) writer.

Well I knew there would be something interesting with Seraï's reveal but man I did not expect that. Intrigued to see where this goes, and very cool new pixel portrait too.

I also had a moment during the Sea of Stars Event Horizon sequence where it switched to a 3D environment for a moment, so I wondered if they were going to do something like The Messenger. I was not excited for the idea of the game suddenly switching to 3D so I'm glad it was just that bit but still a neat touch.

 

[Alex]

Spoilers are for past 20 hours into the game, I can't think of an event to cite that isn't a spoiler itself...

I liked how Garl's answer to "how can you guarantee he'll be soothed"was "bread, duh." Also sad, but that whole Swan Song sequence and the conversations leading up to it were the best in the game. It kind of feels like Garl (and some of Resh'An's) conversations were written by a second (better) writer.

Well I knew there would be something interesting with Seraï's reveal but man I did not expect that. Intrigued to see where this goes, and very cool new pixel portrait too.

I also had a moment during the Sea of Stars Event Horizon sequence where it switched to a 3D environment for a moment, so I wondered if they were going to do something like The Messenger. I was not excited for the idea of the game suddenly switching to 3D so I'm glad it was just that bit but still a neat touch.

The way the soundtrack changes during the part you're at to accommodate The more sci-fi setting you're in is a subtle but really well done detail.

 

[Violentvixen]

The way the soundtrack changes during the part you're at to accommodate The more sci-fi setting you're in is a subtle but really well done detail.

Oh yeah! It changes during the underwater sequences too.

 

[Violentvixen]

Beat it, liked it a lot and ultimately just baffled at how stiff and slow the first part is. I think I'd want the first 6 hours of the game or so to only be three? It just took way too long for anything actually interesting to happen.

I'm going to poke around the postgame/true ending stuff and see if I want to bother. I'm curious but we'll see if I really want to invest the time. The extra challenges for each character sound interesting, but not excited to look for all the shells.

 

[Alex]

I got the shells en route to the platinum trophy. They're not too bad. If you don't want to follow a guide, you can get an item that shows you where objects are still hidden. (I'd recommend following a guide).

 

[Violentvixen]

I got the shells en route to the platinum trophy. They're not too bad. If you don't want to follow a guide, you can get an item that shows you where objects are still hidden. (I'd recommend following a guide).

Yeah, the parrot is helpful but I used a guide immediately, just not too interested in wandering around trying to find things. Also found the hidden room with the developers and the shopkeeper's primo 4th wall pun, good times.

I didn't mind the additional time spent finding all the postgame things, the world of the game was really enjoyable by then. Same as I posted earlier though, it's crazy how much better the game got after the first chunk.

Still under 40 hours after finding stuff which felt like the perfect length.

 

[Sarcasmorator]

Yeah I think I came in at 38, 39, doing basically everything

 

[SpoonyBard]

I've finally gotten around to playing this and just landed in Serai's world, which had one hell of a sequence while arriving there. If you know you know.

I'll mostly echo the sentiments of the bland characterization stated above, though I really like Garl's overwhelmingly positive attitude. (Sad to see him get Gremio'd, but like said character I'm pretty sure there's a way to revive him.) Valere and Zale... sure exist. Their designs and attacks are cool but there's not much to either of them. Serai was introduced with some drive at least, and I love that the party immediately no-sells her revelation that she was the Pirate Captain, but I gotta say... it's pretty messed up that she's basically responsible for Garl's death, right? Like that's never commented on by the party after it happens, aside from Re'shan giving her some stink eye now and then. I dunno, it still kinda bugs me that none of the characters so much as mention it.

Oh and don't think I didn't noticed one of those kids in Clockwork Castle say 'Do the thing', that HAS to be that one robed dude from The Messenger.

I found the battle system a bit tedious at first, or rather found the limited healing inventory chafing, and eventually used the relic which auto-healed you after battle. It also doubles character HP which I'm less keen(athan) on, I'd rather just have one or the other but not both.

But goshdang and heck this game is pretty. If it has nothing else at least every part of it has been an outright visual treat.

 

[Violentvixen]

it's pretty messed up that

Spoiler tags aren't working in quotes for me but yeah, I found this odd. It felt like something got cut or changed and they missed the impact of this.

 

[Paul le Fou]

I dunno, judging from the overall quality of writing and storytelling I'd believe that they just forgot to mention it or never really realized it'd be an issue.